The Club - Meeting 437 - Delayed Punishment Foregone vs. Letting No Bad Deed Go Unpunished

The greatest remedy for anger is delay. - Lucius Annaeus Seneca

 

Hello all. Welcome back to The Disciplinary Couple’s Club.  Our weekly on-line gathering of men and women who are in, or would like to be in, a Domestic Discipline or Female Led Relationship.

 

I hope you all had a great week.  Or, rather, weeks.  It seems like several since I’ve been very engaged with this group.  Probably because it has, in fact, been weeks.  First, there was vacation. Then there was Covid.  Then there was the past week, when I was off dealing with an unanticipated family thing. 

 

It's also been that way on the home front where DD is concerned. Only more so. First, there was the hiatus while Anne’s wrist was in a cast or she was still rehabilitating that injury. Though, honestly, I behaved pretty well during that whole period.   

 

 

However, things started to degenerate about the time she was mostly recovered.  Mostly small stuff.  But, some things stuck in my craw, with some real annoyance at myself. We went out with another couple one evening, and a bit too much of a good time was had by me and the other husband.  Nothing too extreme, but enough that I regretted it the next day, especially since it broke a multi-week chain of good behavior.  

 

 

Second, I had one of those acts of carelessness that wasn’t a big deal in and of itself but could have become a big deal under other circumstances.  I’ve reported here before that one “small thing” Anne has spanked me for is forgetting to clean our rice maker after dinner. I did it again recently, but this time I didn’t just fail to clean it.  I left it plugged in and on overnight. Nothing happened, but it seems like the kind of thing that could result in a fire under the right circumstances.  I was angry at myself about it and, honestly, I probably would have self-reported it and maybe even suggested a spanking if we hadn’t left on vacation shortly after that.

 

Third, while on vacation there were a couple of incidents—including one instance of significant disobedience—that should have gotten me spanked, and would have except for the fact that as soon as we got back home we both ended up with Covid.

 

So, on the one hand, I feel like there has been an accumulation of bad behavior, none of which was addressed.  On the other hand, quite a bit of time has passed since each of those bad acts.

 

We’ve talked about delayed punishment here several times.  The conversation usually has revolved around how punishment needs to happen relatively soon after the offense if it is to be an effective deterrent.

 

However, domestic discipline is not just about deterring bad behavior.  We’ve talked about how it helps “clear the air” or results in a “clean slate,” preventing any lingering resentment or bad feelings.  Yet, that also tends to happen naturally with the passage of time. Indeed, if there is too long a gap between the offense and the punishment, the whole thing can feel kind of pointless.

 

 

We’ve had a few commenters here who have said their wives will seldom, if ever, let any substantial offense go unpunished. Even if it takes several days or weeks, they will make sure it does not go unaddressed.

 

What I’m really interested in, however, is the point of view from the other end of the paddle.  Are there times that you, the disciplined husbands, ever feel like an offense or series of offenses really should be addressed even if a substantial period of time has passed?

 

I’m asking because, honestly, that’s the way I’ve been feeling.  Regarding the act of carelessness I referred to above, it’s something Anne has spanked me for before and likely would have this time had she discovered it and done so before we left on vacation.  And, I really am mad at myself for it, because while nothing bad really happened as a result of my screw-up, it could have.  As for the other bad acts, while my feeling that they really do require some accountability has dissipated, it hasn’t gone away completely.

 

Usually, if I avoid a spanking after some bit of bad behavior, I may feel some mild regret, but it’s usually offset by an understandable sense of relief. So, why is this time different?  

 

First, I think it’s because the conduct involved some things I myself care about.  It’s not just about breaking some rule but about feeling like I screwed up and there really should be a consequence for that even if time has passed.

 

Second, before Anne hurt her hand, she really was ramping up her strictness. Discipline also just seemed much more “top of mind” for her.  She was spanking me for something almost weekly, and she was starting to do things like reminding me about journaling regularly and owning up to bad behavior.  While my ass didn’t enjoy the increased attention, it felt like we were on a good trajectory where her exercising more control was concerned. It was emotionally challenging for me, but that’s always been part of the point of doing this – pushing my limits where humbling and giving up control are concerned.

 

Third, and relatedly, I sometimes go through phases in which I feel myself drifting more and more outside prudent boundaries and start to feel a deep need to be reined in hard and consistently.  After what has turned into a substantial hiatus from discipline, I find myself in one of those moods now.  The need I feel for discipline isn’t closely tied to any of the misconduct described above but, rather, a more general feeling that I need Anne to take stricter, more firm control for a while.  Fortunately for my mental state, but unfortunately for my ass, I get the sense that Anne is kind of looking for an excuse to impose such control again, as she has proactively brought up discipline a couple of times lately, including asking whether I had anything that needed to go into my journal.

How about you? Does time usually dissipate whatever need you felt for penance, or are there times that you regret “getting away with it”? Does that regret rise to the level that you will actually request that she deal with it?  How does your wife feel about the passage of time after an offense? If enough time has passed, does she tend to forget about the behavior and/or just let it slide? Or, is she one of the seemingly rare wives who seldom, if ever, lets a substantial offense go unpunished?

 

I hope you have a great week. Sorry again for the inconsistent posting.

Ask Each Other Anything

 Hello all.  I hope you had a good week.

Well, the good news is, I've more or less recovered from Covid.  This variant hammered me hard initially but then tapered off pretty quickly.

The bad new is that around time I was feeling close to normal, I got blindsided by a family issue that is going to keep me distracted, and probably off-line, for much of next week.

But, feel free to discuss anything DD-related among yourselves, whether it's questions you may have or recent personal experiences you'd like to relate.  I'll jump in if/when I'm available.  Sorry for the lack of consistency with posting, but sometimes "real life" happens.

Have a good week.

Delayed Posting

 Hello all. I hope you all had a great week.  There were several great comments and a wide-ranging discussion -- one that I didn't have much role in moving along.

Anne and I are back from vacation.  I had intended to post something new over the weekend.  But, I am now two-for-two on catching Covid while traveling internationally.  

Last time, it was relatively mild though still no joke.  This time, I feel like I have an awful case of the flu, complete with terrible body aches and fatigue.  It clearly has shaved off several of my limited IQ points, and I just can't get it together enough to post this weekend.  If it gets better over the course of the week, I will try to post something.

FYI, while I've done four rounds of the vaccines, I had not done the most recent one tuned to the most recent variants.  Although virulence has gone down as the virus has evolved, this one really is no joke.  So, if you're not up to date on your inoculations, please think about doing it soon.

The Club - Meeting 436 - A Commenter's Advice on Giving a "Real" Disciplinary Spanking

Hello all. Welcome back to The Disciplinary Couple’s Club.  Our weekly on-line gathering of men and women who are in, or would like to be in, a Domestic Discipline or Female Led Relationship.

 

I hope you all had a good week and, for those who celebrate Easter or are beneficiaries of its inclusion among work holidays, are enjoying a long weekend.

 

We are off on a little vacation starting this weekend, so I won’t be posting a new topic.   

 

 

However, since multiple people brought it up, I am re-posting this three-part set of anonymous comments that were in response to the “Fantasy vs. Reality” post in April of 2016 that formed the basis for last week’s post.  Although I can quibble with it in a couple of areas, I think it does do a very good job of summarizing what a “real” disciplinary spanking is like for many of us. 

 

I’ve also included a comment on that set of comments, which was also made anonymously but supposedly came from a disciplinary wife. 

 

Enjoy your week!  I may weigh in from time-to-time on any comments, and I’ll try to clear out the currently very fucked up Blogger spam filter daily.

 

Anon - part 1

 

Thank you for the thought provoking letter ZM. I am interested in the psychology of punishment, which you touched upon in the beginning about why you want and need this.

 

Most of the men on this board claim to want real punishment. In a domestic discipline relationship the punishments need to be harsh enough to change behaviors, but even those who just have this as a fantasy still want the actual punishment part to be real. Real in this case means unpleasant enough that you are hating it at the time it happens. One common “complaint” that I have read on this blog, and on the polls, is that husbands want firmer discipline than their wives give. Earlier comments talked about how the husband can be brought to the point of surrendering to the spanking more easily. Whether it is because the wife is not punishing correctly or because the husband isn’t able to surrender, it is clear that many men are not getting what they want and need so badly.

 

So if you are a wife, what do you do if your husband shares his need for discipline with you, whether in a fantasy context or in a DD or FLR context? First off, don’t even try to understand why he wants or needs this, because if he doesn’t understand (and he doesn’t) then there is no chance of you understanding! But even if you cannot understand why he needs this, talk with him to try to understand just exactly what it is that he is wanting, and then agree on what things you will punish him for and any other parameters. Assuming he wants “real” punishment, here are some tips for a real punishment with an emphasis on the all-important mental aspects:

 

Anon - part 2

 

- Decide for yourself that the punishment WILL continue until he reaches surrender. Resolve that you will see this punishment through and give him what he really needs.

 

- Start by telling him what he did wrong and how it made you feel. Scold him harshly, because shame is a critical part of punishment. Don’t hold back at all, use a very strong voice, and be as “bitchy” as you can bring yourself to be. Don’t worry, the bitchier you are, the more he will love you for it later! By the time you are done he should feeling horrible about what he has done and be almost relieved to move onto the painful part just to be done with the lecture.

 

- Tell him that you are going to give him a long, hard spanking. Make sure that he understands just how painful it is going to be and that it will go on until he is truly sorry, plus some. Use phrases like “until you can’t sit for a week” to make it more intimidating. He needs to understand that it will be more than he can endure and that he will be pushed past the limit of what he can take, but he will have to take it anyway. This will help him to surrender to it later.

 

- Scolding can continue through any part of the punishment, including corner time.

 

- If you want to give him a warm-up spanking, do it now. It will give him something to think about as he waits for the real punishment to start. Use either your hand or a hairbrush and start softly, but increase the speed and force until it starts to really sting.

 

- Now put him in the corner with his bare bottom on display to wait for the real punishment. Make him wait 10-15 minutes which will seem like an eternity to him and he will feel very ashamed, even if he is used to you seeing him naked.

 

- Begin the actual punishment. Now it is time to use something much more severe than your hand, like a paddle or a heavy strap. Hit harder than you think you should, with most of your strength. From the first stroke, the pain should be a shock to him and it should build to become completely unbearable. Don’t forget to keep scolding him.

 

- At first, he may take it pretty well. You can be proud that he is taking it like the man that he is (after all he is your man!) but both of you should know that the taking it like a man won’t last. You will continue until he is reduced to feeling like a naughty boy, and then punish the naughty right out of him!

 

- As you keep punishing him, you will see that he will start to struggle. This is very difficult because you love him and don’t want to hurt him, but keep in mind WHAT HE NEEDS AND WANTS IS A PUNISHMENT SO SEVERE THAT HE DOESN’T WANT IT AT THE TIME.

 

- As he struggles more he will tell you that he has had enough and that he has learned his lesson, but let him know that the punishment is going to continue until he is very sorry, and that he is nowhere near sorry enough yet. Continue scolding him, and increase the speed and power of the spanking, showing no mercy. Remember that he has a safeword and he hasn’t used it (and probably won’t since he really needs this).

 

- Ignore how red he gets. By the time you are finished, his bottom will probably look horrible and will be swollen and have some bruises. Don’t worry, as long as you are hitting only his bottom it is almost impossible to injure him and he will heal very quickly.

 

Anon - Part 3

 

- The shame and pain will grow until he simply can’t take any more, and at that point you will see that he will relax and stop fighting the punishment. If you can see that he is not reaching the point of surrendering to the punishment, take a break and put him in the corner to think for a while, and also to regain some sensitivity, since the bottom becomes numb pretty quickly.

 

- Continue until he surrenders to the punishment. Unless he says the safeword, the punishment will continue as long and as hard as necessary to bring about this surrender. Note that you are looking for surrender, and not necessarily tears, since some men may cry and others will not. It has nothing to do with how physically or emotionally strong they are, and is just how they are wired. If it is hard for you to see your man cry, remember that in fact some of the strongest men cry much more easily than others who are weaker and less secure.

 

- Once he surrenders, it is up to you how long to continue, but don’t stop immediately since this is the most productive part of the punishment and now real learning is taking place. A good rule of thumb is to treat this as the 3/4 point of the punishment so punish him about another 1/3 as much as you have to this point.

 

- And now finally the punishment will be over. He will probably be somewhat physically and emotionally drained. It is very important to be close to him and to hold on to him. If you are like me, you will feel closer to him now than at any other time so enjoy the time.

 

 

A real punishment like I just described is very difficult for many wives to administer, since even those who love the thrill of control and who really understand that this is exactly what their husband needs still find it difficult to be so harsh and to do something so painful. They love their husband and don’t want to see him suffer. But no matter how hard it is to do, if your husband has this need and if you fulfill it you will see that he will be much happier, more content, more loving, and more relaxed for weeks or even a month afterwards, which makes a difficult hour of punishment more than worth it for both of you.

 

Anonymous response

 

As a disciplinary wife I can say that yes it is very difficult sometimes to punish my husband like this. I know that he needs this, I have seen how it has transformed his attitudes and behavior, I know that he really wants this except for sometimes when it is actually happening, and I know that as soon as it is over he will start forgetting just how painful it was and it won't be long until he is wanting or needing another. As I prepare to punish him I know all these things and usually I can't wait to show him some of the strong emotions I am feeling and let his bottom feel the results of his bad decisions. So I am always ready to punish him good and hard until I am sure that he learned his lesson. But then as the spanking gets harder and I can see that he is really hurting it is so hard to keep going because I love him and just want to stop and forgive him. But when I am able to keep going and give him a lot more than he wants at the time until he just gives up and thinks it will never end it is so powerful. These punishments completely clear everything between us and I am able to let go of all the emotions I am feeling and he feels all the guilt leave and feels like he got just what he needs and I see that it leaves him calm and at peace. After one of these spankings we feel so close to each other unlike any other time. These hard punishments are not easy for me to give but they are so good for our relationship.

The Club - Meeting 435 - Fantasy vs. Reality

“Fantasy is hardly an escape from reality. It's a way of understanding it.” -Lloyd Alexander

 

Hello all. Welcome back to The Disciplinary Couple’s Club.  Our weekly on-line gathering of men and women who are in, or would like to be in, a Domestic Discipline or Female Led Relationship.

 

I hope you all had a great week.  Several in Tennessee obviously didn’t. Another week, another fucking school shooting.  What is it we were saying here the last couple of weeks about how we are somehow failing our youth?  Fuck, fuck, fuck, I am fucking sick of this.  But, please U.S. politicians, keep those thoughts and prayers coming.  

On a more personal if much, much less important note, Anne finally got a bit of good news on her hand injury.  It’s not resolved yet, but at least maybe it’s finally moving in the right direction.  So, perhaps a return to discipline will be in our future.  Surprisingly, my behavior hasn’t been that bad during this downtime, but a couple of nights ago, I had an instance of carelessness about something important that definitely should earn a severe one.  Unfortunately, by the time Anne’s hand is in shape to deliver, I'll probably feel much less contrite.

 

Anyway, we had some good discussions last week.  I didn’t tally the “votes,” but it seemed like a relatively even split between those whose DD yearnings were rooted first in spanking versus those for whom it is an authority thing. Though it’s probably an error to talk about it in binary terms at all, since it seems that for most of us the line has never been all that distinct and/or the motivations—or our insights and self-awareness about them—have changed substantially over time.

 

Near the end of the week, ZM observed that a few weeks ago some comments started centering on “fantasy vs. reality” but it fizzled out. He then went back to a post from April of 2016, in which I posted verbatim an email ZM had sent me regarding how his fantasies about DD differed from the reality he was experiencing.  I went back and read it and the associated comments.  Since I am struggling mightily again to come up with an original post for this week, here is a lightly pared down version of that post, together with some of the more interesting comments.  Combined, it’s a long read, but well worth the time.

 

ZM’s observations on “fantasy vs. reality”

 

I know that I crave "real" discipline, punishment, and control, that which most people would rather avoid. This need for control and discipline is a perpetual enigma that forever lives in the never-never land between fantasy and reality. My fantasy and reality are far apart and in direct conflict:

• In my fantasy, boundaries are imposed and enforced.  In reality, I rebel against any boundaries. 
• In my fantasy, my actions have consequences.  In reality, I try to avoid negative consequences. 
• In my fantasy, I crave punishment.  In reality, I fear punishment. 
• In my fantasy, I must give up control.  In reality, I love to be in control. 
• In my fantasy, I am weak and powerless.  In reality, I am strong and powerful.

 

I am incredibly fortunate because I have someone who loves me enough to understand and fulfill my unusual needs and desires. It is complicated by the fact that my fantasy needs it to be "real," but at the same time, we have a great relationship and equal partnership, so our reality needs it to be "fantasy." In the end, we allow the fantasy to enter our reality from time to time, but our relationship will never be in any way defined by it, but rather by our love for each other. We are loving, we are in love, and everything we do is inspired by love. Even the very firmness, strictness, harshness and at times almost meanness that she unleashes as part of this fantasy ultimately flows from our love for each other. It is very ironic that this fantasy which is based on power and control (both of which have absolutely no place in love) makes us ever closer to each other and more in love.

 

So here I am waiting, remembering the last time and anticipating the next, not knowing when it will be; It could be tomorrow, next week, or next month.  I crave it because the whole experience is unbelievably exciting, and not knowing when it will next happen only adds to the excitement.  At the same time I also fear the real emotion involved, since I don’t like disappointing her. As more time passes from the last punishment, the desire grows and I want it to happen again. But in order for it to have meaning, it has to be for real infractions and she has to have emotions to vent. Because I love her and only want to make her happy, I will never try to hurt her feelings, so infractions are not intentional, but rather things that I do without thinking or that result from my bad habits.  Also, because she is kind and understanding, she might not choose to punish me even when I deserve it.  However, living together inevitably ensures that infractions will happen from time to time, and at least at some of these times, she will be in the mood to use my fantasy to make her feelings clear.

 

When she decides to punish me, I am immediately overcome by powerful emotions as my fantasy collides with the reality of my impending punishment. My heart races and I feel a surge of adrenaline bordering on fear. I may think it is unfair or undeserved and try to defend my actions or plead my innocence, but ultimately, it was me who asked for this, who gave her this authority, and who said that her word is final, so I give in to the inevitable.  As soon as the punishment actually starts, everything becomes very real very quickly, and the fantasy is forgotten for a time, totally replaced by reality.  I am initially surprised by how it is more painful than I remembered, since I tend to forget the pain and remember only the experience (kind of like having a baby). At first, I try to fight the punishment and just endure until the end.  I am more focused on being strong than thinking about why I am being punished. As the punishment continues, I start to feel like I can't take any more, and that it will never end.  But of course, it doesn't end yet, since at that point true punishment is just beginning.  The pain, embarrassment, guilt and emotion keep building as the punishment progresses and they overpower all my defenses one by one, until in the end I surrender to and even embrace the punishment, knowing that I deserve it and need it. At that point, I relax and just absorb the lesson being taught.  Finally the punishment can end.

 

However real the punishment might have been, as soon as it is over, the conflict between reality and fantasy begins once again. Over the following days, the punishment (with all of the feelings of fear, excitement, pain, and embarrassment) is ever-present in my mind.  As I sit down, or perhaps as I walk, I feel the effects of the punishment.  The times I am not consciously aware of it, I am unconsciously replaying the punishment, what was said, what needs to change, etc. But as I remember what happened, I am seeing the reality of what happened through the lens of fantasy.  Yes it was painful, embarrassing, etc., but it was also very, very hot!

 

Again, THIS is why it works (at least for me). Even though I don't always understand this relationship between fantasy and reality, it is BECAUSE of this paradox that it is so powerful for me. As we walk over this bridge between fantasy and reality, it all at once fulfills my strongest fantasies, changes me, and strengthens our love.

• It greatly enhances communication. I hear and understand much better than if she just used verbal communication. Because of the sudden harshness and seriousness, and because it plays to my deepest fantasy, the issue is given maximum attention, but in a positive way, rather than negative. Rather than just try to evade the issue and make it go away, I actually listen. Since relationships are entirely dependent on communication, this is incredibly powerful and makes our relationship bulletproof. It changes my thinking or my mindset about the situation or behavior. Over the days that follow, the whole scene and all the emotions of it is on constant replay through my mind, and I see the situation more clearly from her viewpoint. As my mindset changes, it changes my behavior. 
• It greatly increases intimacy. In life, I am strong and always stand up for her, provide for her, and protect her.  But for a time, I am completely vulnerable to her. This vulnerability enables intimacy which creates a bond that others will never feel. 
•  It makes me love her and feel loved even more, because she cares enough about me to do anything and everything to make my fantasies reality. Sure, if she was just cold and distant, it would make a point, but I would be angry with her and would feel defensive and might pull away. Instead, she has made my fantasy reality, exactly at the time she might not feel much like doing me favors.   

Because she is using my own fantasy to communicate her own feelings, I fully hear what she says, I see things from a different perspective, I feel closer to her than ever, and it makes me want to meet her every need because of our deep love for each other.  This strengthens our relationship and empowers me to make changes that allow our lives to be better, happier, and less stressful as I become who I want to be and we achieve our dreams."

Marisa’s Response

 

I believe the challenge for any woman taking on the responsibility of disciplining her husband is moving him from his fantasy to a shared reality for both of them. Whatever the fantasy is, it will take over his life if it is not altered with reality. I think the strap or paddle (or cane if you use one) makes him confront reality quickly. If you don't believe that watch what happens to his erection when the punishment begins. Consistent and if necessary progressive discipline is what makes him confront that reality more and more and hold on to the fantasy less and less. The fact is these guys do need real accountability, real discipline and real punishment. Aunt Kay was right about saying the marks should last for several days or a week and he should know and remember what happened because he dared to disobey or break a rule. His fantasy is what makes him accept corporal punishment but its an adolescent little boy looking for a mommy figure fantasy. But he is not a little boy and I am not his mommy. I am his wife and when I punish him I want him to understand that and gradually replace that silly fantasy with the reality I love him but he gets punished every time he needs it. Looking this over, it sounds harsh but it isn't. Evey wife has a choice to pander to that fantasy while getting little or no improvement in behavior or to help her husband grow and become the best of himself. None of you guys will achieve that until you let go of your fantasy and connect with the reality that your wife is your disciplinarian today, tomorrow and the rest of your life.

 

Anonymous comment #1

 

It is often a lifelong fantasy and the fantasy is for real discipline so I am not sure that experiencing the reality -no matter how painful and humiliating- will weaken the fantasy nor do I think it is necessarily desirable. In my opinion, it is better for both to embrace the fantasy and occasionally make it very real, and real punishments should continue well past the point it is fun and leave marks and soreness that last for at least several days. If the husband is seeking this it is important for the wife to very clearly assert her authority and to leave no doubt that she can punish him whenever she wants however she wants and how severely she wants. In the beginning, this can be amplified by occasionally punishing him quite severely for something very minor, when he is not expecting it. She can even tell him she knows that it wasn't a big deal but that she needs him to understand that her authority to punish him is unlimited (unless he decides to no longer have this as part of the relationship) and she can punish him whenever she feels like it. If she does this and this is what he wants then she will also reap the benefit of improved behaviors and attitudes and he will be very loving and attentive to her needs. I too am unsure about the Mommy figure because I don't feel that way towards her at any time, but during and after punishments I very much feel like a "bad boy" and at least temporarily makes me less arrogant and cocky, which is good for everyone around me.

KD Pierre

 

To me "fantasy" is a tricky word to use in the context of DD. I would prefer "expectation," i.e: how did I envision DD when we were deciding on it and how has the reality of it played out differently? To me "fantasy" suggests that DD is predominantly sexual, whereas, in our case, sexuality is a sizable element...........but not the only one. "Fantasy" also has a connotation of dress-up and concocted scenarios, whereas spanking may well be a fetish...but within DD it is a fetish being used for a genuine purpose.

 

For me the biggest difference between my expectations and my reality is the way Rosa has taken to all this. Even as I suggested DD, rules, punishment ideas, etc. at the beginning, something in me that craved it all to be real, still saw DD as some sort of 'game' albeit one with rules and real consequences. Rosa sees aspects of our DD as a sort of game as well.......but underneath it all, her belief is that our agreement means that she is "the boss" for real.

 

I sort of saw my obedience as my way of willingly following the rules of the game, or honoring the promises I made. She sees my obedience as a given. If asked, she would look at you with a sort of "what don't you get?" expression as she confirmed her belief in her authority. That is the thing I still can't get used to even as I admire her for her confidence and unabashed belief in her right to rule and punish. I suppose my expectation is still that she would see my submission as a much bigger deal than she does. Instead of this huge concession of rights, or this big "gift of submission", she truly sees our roles with a 'no-brainer' recognition of each of us being exactly where we are meant to be. So I guess when she has a serious discussion with me over some expectation or behavior, or when she plainly informs me that something I did or didn't do has just earned me a spanking, I am still surprised...........even though it is sort of what I was hoping for in my 'fantasy'.

 

[Note: There is a three-part comment from an anonymous wife, regarding what a “real” disciplinary spanking should be like, that is well worth reading though I’m not going to post it again here since this is already a very long post.]

 

All great stuff!  Something I really like about Marisa’s comment in particular is her view that the reality of DD is necessary to keep the fantasy from taking over the husband’s life.  It’s almost the converse—or at least the other side of the coin—from some of the observations Alan, ZM, and others have made about how the fantasy fuels the disciplinary reality. 

 

I could come up with a lengthy list of areas in which our DD reality doesn’t match my original expectations. I am using KD's preferred “expectations” here instead of “fantasies,” because there was a very short period between my discovering DD and Anne implementing it, and during that period I don’t think I really had any “fantasies” per se. Rather, I had preconceived notions of what it must be like, based largely on the Disciplinary Wives Club stories.  For me, the three areas in which there is the biggest gap between expectations and reality are:

 

• Real spankings hurt so much worse than anything I anticipated then, and even how I think of them now until right before the first swat lands. You would think that after dozens and dozens of spankings I would have very clear, accurate memory-driven expectations, yet there still is this enormous gap. 
• The DWC stories led me to believe that crying was a common outcome.  That expectation caused me no end of angst in the early days, because I was dreading the embarrassment.  All these years later, it’s still never really happened. 
• I have an attraction to the idea of being taken under my wife’s strict control, yet when she imposes real controls I feel a lot of internal resistance.

 

So, how is your Domestic Discipline or FLR relationship different from what you fantasized about or envisioned? Are they in conflict, or do they mutually reinforce each other?  When initiating DD or as the relationship developed, did you talk to your wife about your fantasies and expectations? Does she have met or unmet DD or FLR fantasies of her own that she’s told you about?

 

Have a great week.

The Club - Meeting 434 - What Got You Going, Spanking or Authority?

“The argument that 'boys will be boys' actually carries the profoundly anti-male implication that we should expect bad behavior from boys and men.” -Jackson Katz

 

Hello all. Welcome back to The Disciplinary Couple’s Club.  Our weekly on-line gathering of men and women who are in, or would like to be in, a Domestic Discipline or Female Led Relationship.

 

I hope you all had a great week.  Ours was, frankly, so-so at best.  Anne’s hand injury is turning out to be more complicated, and possibly longer-lasting, than her doctor originally thought.  I guess such is life, though it’s frustrating. For her more than me, for sure.  Though, I can kind of feel things slipping a bit during this period in which even the threat of real discipline isn’t very realistic.  But, as I said, such is life and we’ll just have to see how it goes.

 

Despite not having an actual topic, we managed to generate a few good discussion points last week.

 

A carry-over from the prior week was whether women really are increasingly empowered in our society and what the implications might be for F/m DD relationships.  J and TG made a couple of points that I’ll repost here (lightly edited) in case others who shared my break-taking last week want to discuss them further:

 

J: I wonder if, say, female empowerment might lead to F/M DD being normalised? Maybe it would result in men complaining about having received it being regarded (by say their peers or the public) as having received their just desserts (assuming that people believed they actually did what their wives spanked them for)?

 

TG: I think it’s only in the last fifty or so years that we’ve started to see real change. I think overall women trend slightly more intelligent and more stable than men, as evidenced for example by the shift in stats on college degrees awarded. As technology has developed, superior physical strength has become progressively less important, leveling the playing field. We now see more women in positions of power in business and politics. More highly qualified women in fields such as law and medicine. My own opinion is that this trend will continue and within the next century the developed world will become far more matriarchal. How this might impact F/m DD, I can’t imagine, it might increase it as women become more dominant or the opposite as their status becomes more ingrained and they feel less need for outward expressions of control.

 

I think it’s incontestable that young women are thriving these days, while young men are flailing.  What the implications of that are for F/m DD and FLR relationships, I agree with TG that it could go either way.  Many men seek out DD relationships because they are firmly in control outside the home, and they feel a need to give up some of that control at home. As women gain more power outside the home, will they have a similar reaction and want to exercise less control at home?  Very possibly.

 

On the other hand, women can be very practical and seem less susceptible to swinging from one extreme to another.  Maybe, once they’ve tasted more power in the workplace, they’ll see the advantages of using it at home as well?

 

Then, there is the fact that men do, in fact, seem to be flailing, which is something that might distinguish a more matriarchal society from its patriarchal predecessor.  Maybe women who have tasted power and control may feel more justified in using it at home for the simple reason that the men there seem to have more need for being controlled.

 

I thought about this a little more in the context of some of the assertions that we may be hardwired genetically for spanking and discipline. Alan has suggested many times that we have a “spanking gene.”  I admit, I’ve been a skeptic. I’ve thought about it more recently, however, and I can get on board with it if, instead of a spanking gene, it was posited as an adaptation favoring those whose behavior is subject to discipline and correction, including but not limited to spanking.  It’s not hard to come up with a retrospective explanation for our spanking and discipline interest that centers on how obeying authority and allowing bad impulses to be externally corrected could have been adaptive in our hunter-gatherer days.  Especially given that back then banishment from society for violating the harmony of the group could be a quick death sentence, conformity to external rules and discipline definitely could be an adaptive trait.

 

I thought of this in relation to GH recounting a Latin textbook with a reference to corporal punishment among the ancient Romans and also his comments about how young men are flailing.  It does seem that corporal punishment has been nearly ubiquitous across time and geography, which lends some support to Alan’s “spanking gene” theory.  But, it also would seem to have some implications for those who are the most adamantly opposed to non-adult corporal punishment. What happens when one of the historical tools for triggering an adaptive trait is removed? Not a few parents probably got a taste of it when stuck at home with their kids during the pandemic.

 

If corporal punishment and receptiveness to physical discipline and imposed behavioral change really is adaptive, then is banning and banishing it really a good idea?  Have we put anything equally adaptive in its place?  If so, how is it that depression, anxiety, and self-destructive behaviors in kids, particularly our boys, are at an all time high? Food for thought.

 

 There was also a bit of discussion last week about “spanking in anger.”

 

TB: Like many I am more committed than my wife - she will never spank ‘in anger’ which can sometimes mean that punishments are delayed and that (the very occasional) arguments drag on before we finally resolve, calm down and she will then deal with the transgression. My point to her is that if she could deal with the issue earlier and ideally before it mutates into a full ‘dispute’, then we would avoid any arguments & lead a happier and calmer life. She still has reservations about spanking when emotions are still running high, whereas I am convinced that taking action early / immediately would break the cycle.

 

KOJ: My wife did spank when she was irritated about my behavior, and she spanked hard. But I never felt she was out of control, and she never needed to apologize for anything done while irritated (which is a better description than "anger," in my mind). If she couldn't spank immediately, she would threaten a spanking to curb my behavior in the moment, and/or promise a spanking later.  These strategies did stop conflict in its tracks, reducing its length and the resentment that typically follows.

 

T: I’m the opposite of above. I wish my wife would spank when she was angry with me. I feel it would resolve the problem immediately and nip it in the bud. I also feel the spanking would be harsher and would hit home internally. I agree with J, that I want that immediate punishment to avoid hurt feeling and resentment.

 

 

As I said in response to TB, I’m perpetually on the fence on this one. Spanking while angry probably would be a good thing for Anne.  In general, one of the advantages women get out of F/m DD is being able to “express themselves” concretely and in unmistakably clear terms, and doing so in the moment is probably very empowering. 

 

On the other hand, the efficacy of spanking in anger may depend a lot on whether *both* our emotions are running high. When I'm convinced I'm right and my own emotions are running high, I may not be that open to getting the message she is trying to convey.  It seems to take a while for me to cool off and see her perspective. Also, while I don't have any problem in principle with spanking in anger, the whole calm, "business-like" demeanor also really works for me.

 

Though, my receptivity or lack thereof may not always be entitled to much weight.  I had a similar thought in mind when I highlighted K’s comments regarding his wife’s post-orgasm use of a rubber strap.  It’s hard to conceive of anything more “real” in terms of punishment, and perhaps that needs to be on the table even if it were to cause me to “man up” and internally resist it in the moment.  As K said:

 

[T]he fact that she has in her arsenal the ability to punish me in ways I'm GENUINELY afraid of, that I REALLY don't like, and that I go out of my way to avoid, has definitely changed the dynamics of our relationship (for the better). I feel truly that she's in charge, not merely that we're playing a game, and that reality permeates our day-to-day life. I find it comforting, and very, very sexy. (On the rare occasions when she severely punishes me, there's NOTHING sexy about it, especially after she has me climax, but the memory if it reinforces a relationship that I find very sexually fulfilling, if that makes sense).

 

There's something essentially different in knowing that I'm subject to being punished "for real" by the woman I cherish.

 

So, some great discussions were had during a “no topic” week.  One of the threads between GH and I suggested a topic for this week.  We talked a bit about how we both had a thing for older women when we were growing up, particularly older female authority figures, including teachers.   

 

It had extended from a discussion about whether we would have been open to DD in our younger days, or whether male egos and insecurity would have gotten in the way.  I noted:

 

I really am puzzled by how I would have reacted to DD in my 20s. I'm not sure that I would have been attracted to it if offered or demanded by a woman who was my peer in age or younger. But, had it come from an older woman, I think it's more than likely I would have gone for it. I knew even back then that I had a thing for older women, though I didn't quite get at the time that what I was attracted to wasn't based on age but, rather, on the confidence and power differential that the age brought with it. And, looking back again, even the girls I got crushes on in high school and college tended to be much more confident than average. So, I think the tendency was probably there all along, but it was about confidence and power and not about spanking, which wasn't at all on my radar at that time.

 

Many, probably most, of the commenters here have said they had a “thing” for spanking from a fairly early age.  My question for the group is, with the benefit of hindsight, to what extent was that about the spanking, and to what extent was it about the power differential, i.e. about being subject to a powerful female’s authority?  Was it clearly about one or the other, or was it both?  Has the mix changed over time?

 

As I’ve said, I seem to be an exception here in that I did not have an early interest in spanking and none as an adult until I was in my late 30s.  Looking back, however, I suspect I had a thing for strong women long before I had articulated that clearly in my own mind.

 

 

I’ve said for a long time that I had a thing for older women when I was younger.  As I’ve gotten older and felt that shift a little, I’ve begun to suspect it was never about age per se. Rather, it was an attraction to confidence and power, and the plain fact was that some older women had that confidence while few women my own age did.  I got crushes on teachers, professors, and strong female business executives because those were the ones most likely to openly display power or authority.  I also suspect that the power was accompanied by the kind of sexual energy that is confidence's  natural byproduct.

When I discovered The Disciplinary Wives Club, the stories that hit me the hardest were those that involved very stark displays of authority, including those where the disciplinary relationship was either imposed by the woman originally or enthusiastically and strictly applied after she met her husband’s request to give it a try. 

 

While a hard disciplinary spanking was the concrete expression of that authority, the authority held the real emotional force for me.  It’s confirmed by the fact that, while the combination of authority and spanking has the most emotional impact on me, an open display of authority without the spanking still gives me butterflies in my stomach, while a spanking outside the power dynamics of a disciplinary relationship does little if anything for me.

 

How about you?  What’s your primary driver – the spanking or the authority and power behind it? Or, is it impossible to separate the two?

 

I hope you have a great week.  I’ll leave you with this meme I found recently. It has nothing to do with anything, but it made me laugh my ass off.

 

 

No (New) Post This Week

Hi all.  I said last week that I wasn't feeling any inspiration.  I managed to develop a suggestion from Donn into a full post, but this week I'm back to a big fat nothing where DD inspiration is concerned.

 

It may be because we are so out of the habit personally.  Unfortunately, Anne’s arm injury, which was supposed to require about four weeks of immobilization, is looking like it might require some more serious intervention.  We’ll just have to see how it goes.

 

Although I cannot personally come up with anything worth talking about this week, I’m happy to provide the forum for continuing anything that was discussed last week. I will note that almost immediately after complaining that I could find many DD art or memes with non-white subjects, I stumbled on this captioned DD meme.

 

 

It also relates nicely to a comment from K that I found interesting related to his wife imposing post-orgasm, rubber strap punishment:

 

J has the attitude, which she made clear when we agreed to this, that punishment should be just that, and should be something I truly seek to avoid. And it sure is! It's rare - maybe once a year? - and reserved for serious, deliberate breaches of our relationship, such as lying. It's never casual or routine, and always hurts like hell, but I see it as basically a preferable alternative to ending or altering the nature of our relationship. This is not the same as the painful, but not nearly as severe, spankings she'll give me with a strap or hairbrush for less serious, more day-to-day offenses, and DEFINITELY not sexy (though the fact that she has the confidence and authority to do that is SUPREMELY sexy to me, just not in the moment).

 

It's only bearable because I trust that she won't harm me. But it sure feels terrible, beyond anything I'd voluntarily subject myself to or ask for.

 

I admit to being intrigued by wives who take such a “whatever it takes” approach, even if I personally was so intimidated by our rubber straps that I threw them all away. I’m very confident I would never suggest something like that on my own.

 

But, while the topic interests me, we did a “whatever it takes" topic less than six months ago. I don’t have anything new to add, but I’m happy to keep the discussion going if others want to weigh on how far their wives are willing to go in making sure serious issues are, in fact, well-punished.  Perhaps Alan would be willing to update us on his wife's "back to basics" approach, which sounded like it might also be related to ramping up punishment significant to deal with ongoing problems.

We also had some interesting discussions going about things like:

 

·      whether females acquiring more and power in society is likely to increase or decrease participation in F/m power exchange and domestic discipline relationships;

·      early experiences with spankings within our families, including whether siblings were spanked and how they may have influenced our punishment via things like tattling or telling friends about spankings

·      origins and initial triggers on spanking interests

 

Please feel free to continue to weigh in on any of these or, alternatively, take a week off.  I hope you have a good week.