What Gets You Spanked? Rules vs. Standards vs. "Any Reason" (Club Meeting 558)

“The Code is more what you'd call 'guidelines' than actual rules.” – Captain Barbossa in Pirates of the Caribbean

Hello all. Welcome back to The Disciplinary Wives Club – Tribute blog.  Our weekly on-line gathering of women and men who are in, or would like to be in, a Domestic Discipline relationship of the type advocated by the former Disciplinary Wives Club (archived copy in the “Links I Like” list below right).

 

I hope you all had a great week.  Mine was good, all things considered.  Inching forward, one step at a time, toward some independence.  One thing being this immobile for this long has taught me is there really is such a thing as having too much time on one’s hands. I had a dream last night about being recruited to go back to my career, and I suspect that had something to do with feeling more than a little stir crazy.

 

 

I thought we had a good discussion last week about “warnings”.  Sometimes a topic that I think will be pretty narrow or uninteresting brings out some good observations.  In this case, the post was mostly about my own somewhat recent experience with warnings and how I was warming up to them, but people came up with some good things about them that I hadn’t thought of.

 

There was quite a bit of convergence around one point: If the couple feels there are already clear rules, then there may be little room for warnings in their dynamic.  Several of you expressed some spin on that point:

 

“I can understand that warnings might be reasonable at the start if a DD relationship, but once it gets more mature, it would seem to me to be superfluous. We know the rules by now and a warning just feels like procrastination.” – TG

 

“I don't get warnings. I had an extensive 'training period' and supposedly know how things are to be done and how to behave.” – Spanked Cowboy

 

“I don't get warnings. The "rules" are quite clear.” – Tom

 

Hillbilly expanded a bit, giving one reason why rules that are always enforced can be a good thing for the wife:

 

“On today’s topics, warnings for attitude, etc. happen sometimes. But most often around here, the rules are my warning. When I break one, the first time or the fifteenth, I can expect a spanking. That frees up her mind from deciding how much to tolerate. I don’t have to wonder, if it’s in the rules, it will get me a paddling. End of story.”

 

That’s a good point, and I think it relates to some of the discussions we’ve had recently about “fairness”, as the one of the things wives are often pondering when “deciding how much to tolerate” are fairness questions such was whether this one offense crosses a line or is a wobbler, whether he’s been warned about it often enough, etc.  In fact, it's always seemed to me that rigorous consistency should be easier for the spanker, because it would involve less of the decision fatigue that comes from too many judgment calls.

 

When we first started DD, I recognized that fairness considerations might lead to indecision, so I came up with a system that involved agreed-upon offenses and a minimum number of swats for each offense.  It removed a lot of the angst around spanking decisions for her, because our agreement was right there in black and white, as was each week’s tally of swats. She wasn’t wholly locked in, as she could always agree to give more swats.  As she gained confidence, most of that structure fell by the wayside for us.

 

MW noted that warnings also can help foster confidence, especially around getting used to communicating about authority:

 

“Warnings would also help her get used to the language of spanking and let me practice responding to her authority.” - MW

 

I see that as a major benefit of Anne’s increasing use of warnings and the way her specific verbiage has changed.  In the past, her warnings might consist of a pantomime, such as swinging her hand in a spanking motion.  Or, she might use a euphemism for spanking, like, “Do you need a session?” 

 

Contrast that with her warning from a few weeks ago: “If you do that again, you’re going to get spanked.  This is your only warning.  Next time, it’s a spanking.  Got it?”

Euphemisms and gestures land very differently from a direct, declarative statement that uses the word spanking or a direct equivalent.  In fact, some declarations might be even more powerful, if they were designed to amplify the consequences, such as, “If you do that again, I am going to blister your butt.” Or, “If you do that again, you won’t be able to sit down for a week after I’m done with you.”

 

In any event, Anne’s more frequent and more explicit warnings indicate she’s mastering the “language of spanking” was MW put it.

 

As I said, there was some consensus in the comments to the effect that because the rules were clear, warnings didn’t serve any purpose.  That suggested a topic for this week, namely, to what extent do you have rules that are, in fact, clear?

 

And, if you do have clear rules, are all your rules clear and concrete, i.e. none are so vague or subjective that she does, in fact, sometimes have to make a decision around whether a stated rule has been broken?

 

Further, if you do have rules, do they cover all spankable offenses, or can she determine on the fly that you should be spanked for something that has not been covered with an express rule?

 

Norton’s comment seemed to suggest there may, in fact, be two sets of circumstances under which he could be spanked:  First, when an agreed upon rule has been broken.  Second, if he displays some behavior that she doesn’t like or disapproves of but isn’t covered by a rule, in which case a warning might be more appropriate:

 

“We have been practicing DD long enough that both of us understand immediately when a rule is broken, so a warning seems unnecessary in those cases. A warning is more appropriate if I display any behavior she doesn't like or approve of.” – Norton

 

Without really laying it out explicitly, I think that’s the way it’s always been for us.  There have always been some small number of express rules, but there also have been things that are more like “guidelines”, e.g., the Captain Barbossa quote above, that are real but more vague or subject to discretion. 

 

And, there is a third mostly unnamed category that is inherent in my agreeing that she has “for any reason” spanking authority. 

 

It seems like as time has gone by, more and more of the things that might get me spanked fit into those last two categories, as opposed to concrete, “yes or no” rules.  It’s true even of things we began with that are still considered potential problem areas, like drinking too much.  When we first started, we defined expressly what “excessive” meant and even assigned a minimum number of swats for each drink over the allowed amount.  Today, it’s more of an “I know it when I see it” standard and usually coupled to something else that’s conduct based, like getting mouthy or staying up way too late.

 

That may sound "loose" to those of you who say you have very clear rules.  Yet, I don't really feel that way.  With disrespect, I feel like she sets the bar too low and lets me get away with too much, and I've told her that.  Being spanked more for carelessness is something I requested.

 

I've also yet to experience what seems to be a somewhat common experience in which, once the behavior improves, she simply escalates and sets more, or more exacting, rules.  Our old commenter KOJ discussed the phenomenon:

 

"We definitely had a set of rules, all of which she established and enforced with spanking. But she also was very much into spanking for "disrespect" and ungentlemanly conduct," and that could take almost any form. Occasionally I would be surprised by her reasoning, but usually she was spot on.

 

Did spankings decline as she "trained" me? Yes, but not as much as one might imagine because she kept setting the bar for my behavior higher and higher. Plus, she both needed to and enjoyed asserting her female authority, and nothing did so as directly and dramatically as ordering me to take down my pants.

 

There were times when I noticed her getting antsy and I knew she would soon be finding a (good enough) reason to put me over her knee. Sort of a gender reversal from the more typical situation of the disciplined husband needing a reset. It was her demonstrating that "I'm in charge here, and don't you forget it!"

  

 

There also are times where she's expressed frustration about something but there's never been an express declaration of intent to spank for it, then at some point she's had enough.  It's kind of a gray are, because there wasn't a rule per se, and there wasn't a "if you do it again, you'll be spanked" explicit warning but, on the other hand, her annoyance has been made clear, often more than once.  

 

 

Further, it seems like more and more things fall into looser buckets, like not being “careless” in a way that causes loss of money or time.  There also are things like “disrespect”, where we both probably know what it is, but we seem to set different bars for it, with her being more tolerant than I would be if our positions were flipped.

 

How about you?  Is your dynamic very rules-based, or is it looser standards? Does she confine spankings to agreed-upon rule breaking, or does she have more discretion than that?  Can she simply add a rule at will? If so, is there always a warning before breaking that new rule results in a spanking?

 

Are there only a few rules?

 

Or many?  Have there ever been too many?   

 

Finally, when we’ve had these discussions about rules in the past, there hasn’t been much discussion of what your specific rules are.  If you’re willing, please give us whatever part of your lists your comfortable with.

 

I hope you have a great week.

Warnings vs. Immediate Spankings (Club Meeting 557)

One thorn of experience is worth a whole wilderness of warning. - James Russell Lowell

 

Hello all. Welcome back to The Disciplinary Wives Club - Tribute.  Our weekly on-line gathering of women and men who are in, or would like to be in, a Domestic Discipline relationship of the type advocated by the former Disciplinary Wives Club (archived copy in the Links I Like list below right).

 

I hope you all had a good week.  Mine wasn’t bad.  I went into it with low expectations, after a medical appointment last week left me thinking it might be several weeks before I’m (literally) back on my feet. So, I was very happy when, at a scheduled follow-up this week, I was advised that it will only be two more weeks until the worst of the mobility restrictions are lifted.  And, I got rid of an external brace that was very uncomfortable and making it impossible to sleep effectively. 

 

So, baby steps, again . . . literally.

 

A side effect of some increased mobility may be that my ability to get myself in trouble soon may be returning to post-accident levels.  While my ability to physically take the consequences may not be quite there yet (I also injured my tailbone in the accident, and it still is pretty tender), my interest level has been ramping back up slowly but surely after this long break.

 

And, it has been a long break. Not just from the act of spanking but from the whole dynamic. It’s a shame, because right before things got side-tracked, I felt like we were on the threshold of things going in a new, stricter direction, with Anne taking more and more control.

 

It wasn’t so much that Anne was spanking more often, though there was an uptick. Rather, it seemed like it was on her mind more regularly than it was a few years ago. And, I knew that because she was vocalizing her thoughts more often, and that new verbal expressiveness often took the form of express threats of an impending spanking if I didn’t stop whatever I was doing that was pissing her off.  And, she was plainly feeling less need for validation from me when it came to deciding what was and was not OK behavior and attitude.

 

Even though there wasn’t a huge leap in the number of spankings, it certainly felt like she was becoming stricter. And, in fact, she was, but it was being expressed through increased verbal assertiveness and control.

 

There was an incident that happened shortly before my accident that illustrates where things seemed to be heading.  We were in the kitchen, and I said or did something that annoyed her.  Initially, she didn’t say or do anything about it, and at first it seemed like she was about to get up and walk away. But, then she turned to me, looked me straight in the eye and said something to the effect of, “If you do that again, you’re going to get spanked.  This is your only warning.  Next time, it’s a spanking.  Got it?”

 

Later that night, we talked about her stern warning and the fact that, to me, it felt like it represented a change of sorts. I told her that it had been both intimidating and, at least in retrospect, a major turn on for her to be so assertive, even though she had chosen not to take it to the next step and actually order a spanking.

 

She said that she was proud of herself because, even though she didn’t spank me, it was the kind of thing that she usually would have just let go.  This time, however, she caught herself in the mental act of choosing not to address it and, instead of walking away, she consciously decided to give me that verbal dressing down.  

 

I told her that even though we’ve discussed several times that she should be quicker to react with an actual spanking, something about her approach this time felt right. And, I meant it.

 

In general, I do feel like Anne cuts me too much slack and lets me get away with too much.  Yet, there has been a significant and, I believe, meaningful change in the last year or so.

 

In the past, she left too much bad behavior, and particularly bad attitude, go completely unaddressed.  But, in the months immediately preceding my accident, particularly when it came to sarcasm and disrespect, she had become for verbally assertive, and the content of her assertions often involved a spanking threat, like: “Do you want to get spanked, because I can take you upstairs and spank you right now?” 

 

It was a step forward for sure, but it still felt like it was tentative and left me with substantial control, since she was, in fact, asking me a question and giving me a chance to adjust my behavior (or not). It was a threat, but it was open-ended.

 

Her warning described above felt different. 

 

On the surface, it might seem like less of an immediate threat, since it coupled a warning with a statement that I would be spanked for it next time it happened.  Which is, strictly speaking, letting me off.  But, that wasn’t how it felt, probably because it didn’t invite any response from me.  It was a simple statement that she was giving me this one warning, and next time I would be spanked.

 

Maybe that’s why a warning, coupled with a firm statement about future consequences, also flipped one of my other big triggers – maternal discipline.  Something about the scenario felt very maternal; more so I think than moving straight to a spanking would have.

 

I think I associate warnings with maternal discipline because, when I was growing up, warnings were far more common than actual spanking. I’ve said before that one reason I crave discipline as an adult is probably because I didn’t get much of it as a kid. But, that doesn’t mean I wasn’t threatened with it regularly.  I was, and not just in private and not just by parents.  It was pretty common where I grew up to be reprimanded in public, by parents but also other adults, and those reprimands were frequently coupled with a warning about spankings to come. 

 

 

Which leads to a complication:  For the warning to be effective, and for it to have a distinctly maternal vibe, it has to be credible.  When I was growing up in my original hometown, warnings were very credible, because whether at home or at work, they were very frequently followed by an actual spanking if the offender didn’t immediately correct course.  However, the converse can also be true.  I associate warnings with a maternal vibe, but only if there is a credible threat of follow-through.  I don’t associate my own mother with maternal discipline, because at least as I got older, her warnings became less and less credible.

 

Another complication with warnings is that a warning can easily be made and then forgotten. Or, so much time passes between the warning and a repeated offense that our wives may see a repeated warning as “only fair”. 

 

It’s a very realistic concern.  My description above of the offense that led to Anne’s “this is your one warning” warning isn’t vague because I’m embarrassed to describe it. It’s vague because I don’t remember it. Neither does Anne. I asked her about it a couple of days ago and, while she remembers making the warning, she too can’t remember what set it off.  Now, to a big extent, I think that’s because my intervening accident turned our lives upside down to such an extent that it’s hard to remember all sorts of stuff that happened earlier than seven weeks ago.  However, our mutual forgetfulness does suggest that if warnings are going to be a part of the process, maybe there needs to be some kind of documentation around them.

 

 

On the surface, her “this is your one warning” approach seems inconsistent with the many, many times we’ve talked about how she should be much quicker to spank.  And, it is still true that she lets me get away with too much.  It’s also true that we both say we want a stricter approach, and maybe warnings don’t seem so strict.

 

Yet, it doesn’t really feel that way, and I’m not sure that certain and immediate spankings, without any warning, are ever going to be realistic for us. Even if I’ve said that’s what I want and need, there is a certain perceived unfairness about being spanked without any warning and, like probably most of the wives, being fair is part of Anne’s basic psychological makeup.  While it might work for some wives, a “no warnings – right to spanking” approach to strictness probably just isn’t consistent with who she is at this point in time.

 

 

My all-time favorite story on the Disciplinary Wives Club website, Even More (written by our long-time contributor, Al) includes an interesting exchange regarding warnings and fairness. It takes place right after the husband and wife have agreed to try DD:

 

“They had no sooner arrived home than Susan followed David into the bathroom to discover that he had left the toilet seat up. "Damn it, David," Susan exclaimed, "we just talked about you not leaving the seat up this afternoon. You know that was one of the things we agreed you would be spanked for."

 

David stammered, "Sorry, I just forgot. You know it takes a while to break old habits. But I promise I won't forget again." David really had forgotten to lower the seat, lost in thought about all that had transpired through the day. And he was nervous. In spite of all his fantasies, the reality of the contract and the purchase of the hairbrush was beginning to sink in. He began to wonder if he had made a very big mistake.

 

"Well, David, we're just going to help you make sure you don't forget again. It looks like we'll be breaking in this hairbrush sooner than I expected. Take off your pants and meet me at the sofa," Susan replied curtly.

 

David gulped, "Don't you think I should get one warning, Susan? Don't you think that would be more fair?"

 

"David, you just signed a contract this afternoon agreeing to no arguments about your discipline, and now you're already arguing. You asked for this arrangement, and you're going to live up to it. Now, do as I said."

 

That fictional exchange illustrates some of the nuances around warnings.  David thinks he should get one warning but, the offense had been designated just that day!  So, he had, in effect, been very recently “warned”. 

 

I can see how Anne might backslide into thinking that a long period between a warning and repeat offense suggests not the threatened spanking but a refreshing of the warning. But, maybe not.  When I brought up her warning a couple of days ago and asked whether she remembered what it was about, she made a point of saying that I probably shouldn’t expect many warnings going forward, because I’ve already been warned more than once about most of the things that piss her off. 

Only time will tell.

 

 

I don’t have a well-defined set of sub-topics for this one.  Feel free to respond with anything that seems relevant.  I would like to hear, however, which you prefer (in practice or in fantasy) - at least one warning, or right to a spanking.

 

Have a great week.

Does Good Behavior Cancel Bad, and Does Her Bad Behavior Ever Cancel His? (Club Meeting 556)

“Mutability of temper and inconsistency with ourselves is the greatest weakness of human nature.” - Joseph Addison

Hello all. Welcome back to The Disciplinary Wives Club - Tribute.  Our weekly on-line gathering of women and men who are int, or would like to be in, a Domestic Discipline relationship of the type advocated in the now defunct Disciplinary Wives Club (archived copy in the Links I Like list below right).

 

I hope you all had a great week.  Mine was okay physically, with some progress on the recovery front, but it also was disappointing to have it emphasized how slow it will be. I ended up having to see my surgeon to have something checked out. Everything was OK, but I asked her whether, after my checkup next week, I can expect to move at least toward some weight-bearing.  Got an instantaneous, unequivocal "no".  Sigh . . . 

 

Accepting that this is going to be a very slow, very drawn out process is hard and resembles a bit the process of accepting that a spanking is going to happen, no matter how much you may want it not to, as discussed by a few of us near the end of last week's discussion.  Check it out.

 

A couple of weeks ago, I asked for topic ideas. Greg responded with this:

 

“Should a spanking be cancelled by good behaviour?

Should a spanking be cancelled by bad behaviour by the wife?

 

Both of these were allowed recently by my wife during a weekly maintenance.

 

Though I do believe that the answer should be a definite NO (particularly for maintenance), I did not contradict her because she does have the right to decide on all punishments.

 

We had had a busy week and there was an argument just before our “Report Card” meeting. She admitted that she was at fault and therefore wasn’t going to give the maintenance spanking. She acknowledged that I had been very good all week as well, so a spanking wasn’t needed.

 

In my opinion, a maintenance spanking is designed to be a reminder, even if there have been no offences. This should always happen. And if the wife has done something wrong, that is irrelevant to any behaviour by the husband. We haven’t agreed to punishments for her. The husband needs to be held accountable each and every time.

 

Any thoughts?”

 

Greg’s two scenarios are different aspects of an issue we’ve explored many times in various forms, namely, when does/should fairness trump consistency?

 

There’s probably not a “one size fits all” answer to his first question, i.e. should a spanking be cancelled by good behavior?  The answer probably is going to be different depending on where each couple sets the bar regarding the behavior they are trying to address. Some have a "zero tolerance" approach.  For others, that would be seen as overkill.

 

Also, I think there are two possible interpretations of Greg’s question.  One might be, if there has been some (minor) screw up but the husband’s behavior has otherwise been exemplary, does the especially good behavior offset the bad?

 

For us, I think the answer would mostly be no, but it depends on the circumstances.  Anne has never been one to punish for every little thing.  So, if my attitude and behavior have been especially good, she’s probably going to let a minor incident slide.

 

On the other hand, there are some items that I may see a minor, and even she might see as minor in isolation, but in aggregate she’s become pissed about them and intends to nip them in the bud.  In those cases, even if it’s something that hasn’t happened in a while, and even if my behavior has been exemplary otherwise, that good behavior is unlikely to negate the behavior she’s determined to wipe out.

 

The other angle on Greg’s first scenario would be the maintenance spanking that his comment referenced.  Should good behavior cancel a scheduled maintenance spanking?

 

Since we don’t do maintenance, I don’t have much of an opinion on this one, but my uninformed view is maintenance is something that would seem to be more at her discretion, because it doesn’t send mixed signals in the way that inconsistency in real punishment spankings do.  When something clearly meriting punishment has happened and it isn’t delivered, that tends to undermine the dynamic.  But, maintenance is more about role affirmation and maintaining the spanking habit.  If that habit is well-established, it seems to me to be reasonably within her discretion to skip one session.  But, others who actually use maintenance spankings should chime in here.

 

Greg’s second question is, “Should a spanking be cancelled by bad behaviour of the wife?”  I’m not totally sure what Greg is getting at with this one.  Two scenarios come to mind. 

 

First, his comment referred to a fight that his wife determined was her fault. For me, if that was how the scenario actually played out—we got in a fight and it was Anne’s fault—yes, for me that would certainly mean I don’t get spanked for the fight, unless I did something like go way over the bounds of civilized argument. 

 

However, it's also the case that Anne has been getting better at cutting things off before something turns into a real fight.  Over the last year, she's become much quicker at not only noticing snippiness or snarkiness but making sure I know it will get me spanked if I don't stop.  Although I don't like it at the time, it does put give me a certain amount of choice in determining whether to (a) continue with a bad attitude that might lead to an argument, or (b) get spanked.

 

Second, there is the perhaps more common issue of a husband getting spanked for something the wife sometimes (or often) does herself.  Or, maybe the wife has behaved badly in way that’s unrelated to the husband’s bad conduct.  Does her bad behavior cancel out his?

 

 

For me, this one is a clear no.  Her behavior is more or less irrelevant to whether I should get a spanking. There are two related aspects to this.

 

First, our DD relationship came at my request.  After I discovered The Disciplinary Wives Club, I determined that it was a relationship style that might do me good.  I felt the need for more structure. I wanted someone to set rules and enforce them. And, I felt an overwhelming need to be held accountable for bad behaviors and attitudes, and I wanted the means for imposing that accountability to be the kind of disciplinary spankings I read about on the DWC website.

 

Anne, in contrast, doesn’t have any desire for physical discipline.  She’s emotionally self-regulating and has a solid temperament. She doesn’t want or need imposed discipline.

 

Second, and relatedly, our DD relationship involves a consciously chosen inequality in the power structure. When it comes to the “why, where, when and how” questions of how the disciplinary relationship works, she’s in charge.  Period.  While we’re equals in many aspects of our relationship, when it comes to discipline there is a clear hierarchy, and it’s again based on the DWC model, which advocated for “maternal” style discipline.  In short, I’ve asked Anne to take on a more parental-style role, and parents do the punishing; they don’t get punished themselves.

 

 

There was a comment last year that summed this up as well or better than I ever could. It’s one I know Norton liked, as he’s brought it up several times. It was by a commenter calling herself Ms. Terrapin.  She said that she had initially had some hesitation about disciplining her husband for smaller things and also about disciplining him for things she too was guilty of. She had epiphanies, however, on both fronts. Here’s what she said (edited for length) in response to me talking about Anne spanking me for failing to close the garage door, even though she’s had some problems with it herself:

 

“I’ve found that keeping my focus on the root cause—disobedience or disrespect—has been a lifesaver for banishing second-guessing. It’s like a mental anchor that keeps me steady when I start to wobble on whether a spanking is “fair.”

 

Your mention of Anne experiencing the same garage door quirk reminded me of a similar concept - and that is hesitating because I felt like I was being a hypocrite. Early on, if I’d messed up something similar—like leaving the garage door open or forgetting a chore—how could I discipline my husband for it? But focusing on the root cause solved that dilemma for me. It’s not about whether I’ve ever committed the same offense, because the primary reason he is being spanked is for disobeying me.

 

This ties into something else he’s asked for (even if he’s not always thrilled about it when the paddle comes out!): a dynamic that mirrors realistic maternal discipline. And here’s the fun part—another epiphany I had is that real-life maternal discipline isn’t about fairness. A mom can spank her son for staying out past curfew without batting an eye, even if she stayed out late herself the week before. It’s not a relationship of equals, and that’s the point!

 

I've had several occasions over the past few years where my husband has tried to get out of punishment by arguing that it wasn't fair that he was getting spanked for something that perhaps I had also done myself in the past. I always enjoy the look on his face when I cheerfully reminded him, “You asked for maternal discipline, and you will receive maternal discipline. Life’s not fair, darling, and I’m the one in charge!” It is a moment that sets the tone: naughty boys are not peers with their maternal disciplinarians.

 

The sentence I bolded is the heart of how I answer the question of why it’s fair for Anne to spank me for something she isn’t perfect about herself:  By choice and at my request, ours is not a relationship of equals when it comes to setting the rules or determining the consequences for breaking one.

 

How about you? How would you answer Greg’s questions about what should, and should not, cancel or offset a spanking, whether disciplinary or maintenance?