The Club - Meeting 371 - Male or Female, Bad Behavior is Bad Behavior

“A person who is knowingly bent on bad behavior, gets upset when better behavior is expected of them.” - Jane Austen

 

Hello all.  Welcome back to the Disciplinary Couple’s Club.  Our weekly gathering of men and women who are in, or would like to be in, Domestic Discipline relationships. I hope you all had a great week.

 

Mine was pretty uneventful.  Work continues to scale down as I approach a real exit point.  I actually toyed with taking off ahead of my current plan, but the powers-that-be didn’t want to take me up on it.  I have this aversion to getting paid to do next to nothing—probably a holdover from my very blue collar roots—so I’m trying to treat dealing with that aversion as a growth experience.  And, it’s not like I’m losing a lot of life changing opportunities by riding it out a little while longer.  I spent most of the winter rehabbing from the fix for a chronic injury, and although it is coming along, I’m not going to be training for an Ironman any time in the near future.  And, while spring and summer outdoor activities are just around the corner, our weather is not quite there yet.  In fact, we have a surprising amount of snow left from a storm a couple of weeks ago.   

 

 

So, I ended up spending the week doing some minor home renovation projects, catching up on some reading, and binge watching a Netflix series.  And, of course, having fun with the good discussions we had last week, even though (or perhaps because), they strayed quite a bit from the original topic.  That is fine and, in fact, I keep thinking I need to make these weekly discussions less topic driven.  So, don’t be surprised if some weeks I spend time talking or observing, and then kind of let people take things where they will (within reasonable limits).  Given that I’m once again not particularly inspired by any particular topic, this may be one of those weeks.  So, let's meander a bit based on last week's discussions and see where it leads . . .

 

One thread of last week’s discussion involved Danielle and Liz talking about their childhood experiences and the resentment they felt toward differences in how they were treated compared to their respective brothers.  I was amused and, frankly, a little turned on by their very frank admissions that they would like to see their adult brothers spanked.  I don’t know why those admissions turn me on, but they do.  I think maybe it reflects the simple fact that I find women expressing their genuine desires around DD and exercising power very seductive, including something as straightforward as admitting that spanking someone, or witnessing a spanking, turn them on. I wonder whether the mutual attraction to the power exchange is a big part of what makes long-term DD marriages work, even if the level of interest begins on very different levels.  I also wonder sometimes whether my own interest in the power exchange aspects has changed over time, or whether I misinterpreted some of the nature of the early obsession.  As I noted in a comment to ZM:

 

I am not turned on by the spanking itself, and definitely not in the moment. It's really about the power differential. Interestingly, a few weeks ago I went back and read some of the stories on the DWC site that first attracted me so much to DD, and it was interesting how many of them did have a pronounced FLR element. While I always think of FLR as something we've dabbled in outside of or in addition to DD, it makes me wonder how much of the original obsession was tied to the FLR elements and not specifically to DD. But, that's not quite right either, because the FLR/power exchange elements don't do that much for me absent the whole dynamic of accountability, boundaries. Though, I wonder whether those are about the authenticity of the power exchange and not really about a desire for punishment? As Brett says, it's complicated stuff.

 

Belle and Danielle both responded that the power imbalance in their favor turns them on as well:

 

This is definitely the turn-on for me, the power exchange. He is so much bigger and stronger, yet he obeys me (and only me). In some ways it is an expression of his love, so while I am usually in the moment irritated about the behavior that has triggered the punishment, I also love him for his obedience and am aroused by it. Anger, love, arousal ... it's intoxicating!

Belle

 

I agree completely with Anne and Belle: it is the power exchange that turns me on. I have come to find spanking itself kind of erotic, but that's because it is so symbolic of the power exchange. Other forms of power exchange turn me on too, sometimes even more. That's why I like having a full FLR rather than just DD.

Danielle

 

 

These discussions around origins and motivations always fascinate me, precisely because we are all such complicated creatures and there clearly is no one “right” answer for how we get ourselves into these arrangements which—whether DD, FLR or some mix of the two—all involve some consciously arrived at allocation of authority that includes the authority to correct or punish.  The unique mix of motivations reminds of a poll I took back in 2017 (when Blogger still had a polling widget) that tried to explore the various motivations for getting into DD.  Respondents were allowed to pick more than one answer, and the percentage choosing each option I gave in that poll were as follows (in descending order):

Handing control over to someone for a while                        55%

I like my wife strong and powerful                                        51%

Accountability/penance                                                          47%

Boundaries and rules make me feel better or safer                38%

It's primarily about a spanking interest or fetish                    36%

Stress relief                                                                             35%

I like pain                                                                               9%

Other                                                                                       4%

 

As I noted when posting this poll originally, it may be one of the worst I've ever done.  Among the numerous problems I see in retrospect, it's missing at least one option that I suspect would have ranked pretty highly, namely performance improvement.  Maybe that option is kind of wrapped up in "accountability," but only obliquely.  I also wonder what would have happened had I forced people to choose their primary motivation.

 

In any event, it seems a happy coincidence that men inclined toward DD like “handing over control” to “strong and powerful” wives, while our strong and powerful wives get turned on by having the power to take control even if the degree to which they exercise that control varies widely.  And, on balance, it’s probably a good thing that there are strong women out there who are willing to take control.  I hear KD’s points about gender stereotypes and not over-generalizing, but it doesn’t seem that controversial to me that on average, men really do seem to be having a harder time of it than women these days. While discrimination still obviously exists, I don't think it is a stretch to say that it is increasingly becoming a female dominated world.  In 2009, the number of women in the workforce exceeded men for the first time.  In 2014, women accounted for 55% of undergraduates in four-year colleges. Once there, they tend to earn higher grades and drop out less. In 2019, women for the first time comprised a majority of the college educated workforce.  Women now get more Masters and Doctorate degrees than their male counterparts.

 

So, women are doing great.  Men?  Not so much.  While a little dated and hardly scientific, a study in 2014 showed that 88.7% of Darwin Award (given to people who “eliminate themselves in an extraordinarily idiotic manner, thereby improving our species' chances of long-term survival”) winners were male.  Other truly scientific statistics are just as telling.  Between the ages of 15 and 24, men are three times more likely to die than women, because they are far more likely to engage in reckless behavior or violence. Motor vehicle accidents are the most common cause of death for males in this age group, followed by homicide, suicide, cancer and drowning.  Here is some additional and updated background on these statistics, if you’re interested:

 

https://www.npr.org/2019/06/20/734408574/new-report-says-college-educated-women-will-soon-make-up-majority-of-u-s-labor-f

https://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/fact-sheets/mens-health.htm#:~:text=Nearly%20three%2Dquarters%20of%20deaths,each%20year%20in%20the%20U.S.&text=Among%20drivers%20in%20fatal%20motor,or%20greater)%20compared%20with%20women

 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1523476/

 https://www.cdc.gov/healthequity/lcod/men/2017/all-races-origins/index.htm

 https://www.iihs.org/topics/fatality-statistics/detail/males-and-females

 https://www.vox.com/2014/12/11/7378371/darwin-awards-men

 

Even when they aren’t killing themselves and flunking out college, doesn’t it seem like the latest generation of men just need some – motivation?  There is a scene I love in an otherwise cute if uninspiring De Niro movie, The Intern.  Anne Hathaway’s character, “Jules”, owns her own company.  While out enjoying some libations with several of her young male employees after a (contrived and fairly silly) caper, Jules offers the following assessment of the respective states of affair for young men and women:

 

Jules : Here's my theory about this. We all grew up during the "take your daughter to work day" thing, right?

 

Ben : Mm-Hmm. 

 

Jules : So we were always told we could be anything, do anything. And I think guys got, maybe not left behind, but not quite as nurtured, you know? I mean, like, we were the generation of "you go, girl."We had Oprah. And I wonder sometimes how guys fit in, you know? They still seem to be trying to figure it out. They're still dressing like little boys. They're still playing video games.

 

[male employees interjecting about the wonders of video games]

 

Jules : How, in one generation, have men gone from guys like jack Nicholson and Harrison Ford to... [nodding at slacker male employees]

 

So, while I hear KD about over-generalizing and about women having lots of their own issues, it does seem to me that it isn’t that controversial to maintain that on average, men do seem to have the greater need for some additional discipline and motivation. 

 

On the other hand, I do think it’s become a little too easy to characterize every stray male comment or action to some peculiarly male bit of malice or incompetence.  This has been, after all, the year that being a “Karen” became a thing, right?   

 

 

While definitions vary, I kind of liked this from the New York Post:

 

“Karen” has become social-media shorthand meaning a middle-aged white woman — potentially with an asymmetric haircut a la Kate Gosselin, circa 2009 — who makes a big fuss, and is not-so-blissfully ignorant. Recently, a fake American Girl doll ad for “Karen” caught the eyes of Twitter: The doll mock-up is of a sweatsuit-wearing, gun-wielding shopper who “refuses to wear a mask in public places.

 

So, it seems there are plenty of women out there who exemplify the worst of the stereotypes women have taken to slinging about us hapless men – social aggression, stupidity, lack of concern for the welfare of herself and others . . .  Not a pretty picture, and maybe it explains why M/f domestic discipline seems at least as prevalent as our community’s F/m version. Though, of course, the attacks on the Karens of the world can be just as over the top as those aimed at the most innocent example of manly incompetence.

In that vein, I had a run in this week with the female version of “mansplaining.”  I have a covid-era puppy who missed some socializing thanks to the pandemic.  He’s a sweet little guy with people most of the time, but he can be kind of an asshole with other dogs. I’ve been trying to catch him on social skills by taking him to a local dog park.  Some days he does OK.  Others not so much.  But, he usually does better after he has a chance to get settled in.  Therefore, now when we first get there, I tend to keep on the leash a while if he is showing signs of being aggressive.  And, I feel like I have to take him to places with other dogs; otherwise he’s never going to learn to socialize.  So, a few days ago I went to the park later in the day than I usually go, which meant instead of the regulars there were dogs and their owners who were strangers to us.  I took him into the park area with his leash on, and the dog started acting like a jerk, nipping and growling. So, I kept his leash on and walked him around so other dogs could come up to him, but he couldn’t run with them until he settled down. We were walking along a path in the general direction of three women who were hanging out talking while their dogs ran around.  A couple of them came up to us and, sure enough, my dog started growling.  At that point, one of the women started lecturing me about how keeping him on the leash would just make him more aggressive. I explained that he has a habit of being aggressive with other dogs and can’t be trusted off leash initially but usually will settle down after a few minutes.  So, she segued into telling me that if he wasn’t friendly, perhaps I should take him to the other side of the park. I told her, again, that he can be perfectly friendly, but it just takes him a while to get comfortable.  She started to once again give me her unsolicited advice, but I was irritated enough and just walked away.  It wasn’t so much what she said, but the tone from this total stranger, a self-appointed know-it-all regarding dog training and dog park etiquette who inserted herself and just started running her mouth without knowing anything about my dog, me, etc. To KD’s point, it wasn’t mansplaining, womansplaining, Karen-splaining, or whatever. It was just passive-aggressive rude behavior from a note-it-all who happened to be a woman.

 

 

Though, the incident did have one curious effect on me.  I’ve always said that I have no desire to give a woman a disciplinary spanking. None. But, you know what?  I would have loved to put that woman over my knee or would gladly pay to watch her husband do it.

 

Like I said, I have no real topic for this week, so feel free to comment on anything the above brings to mind.

The Club - Meeting 370 - Consequences & Turning the Tables

"Obedience of the law is demanded; not asked as a favor.” - Theodore Roosevelt

 

Hello all.  Welcome back to the Disciplinary Couple’s Club.  Our weekly gathering of men and women who are in, or would like to be in, Domestic Discipline relationships. I hope you all had a great week.

 

Ours began and ended with reminders that no matter how much I’m craving this and no matter how much the weather gods fool me into thinking it’s that time of year again . . .

 

  

Something like this is a fantasy a little aligned with the climate reality . . .

 

  

Other than some eventful weather, it was a pretty mundane week.  Not a lot of drama, and nothing relating to the subject of this blog. Anne actually had made it clear she wanted to get things going on the DD front again, but we had some minor illnesses going on that sapped all that energy out of us both.  The combination of my generally decent behavior and nothing happening on the FLR side left me pretty uninspired when it comes to a weekly topic. But, one thing did happen over the weekend that got me thinking about behavior and consequences.

 

We’ve been having some trouble with a discourteous neighbor.  I won’t go into the details, other than saying the neighbor keeps creating a nuisance that really interferes with our ability to enjoy our own home some evenings.  It’s a pretty common kind of problem;  nothing super serious but it has been going on periodically for quite a while and reflects a general lack of common courtesy and good manners. We had tried to deal with it in the spirit of neighbors getting along, but maybe a bit too passively.  And, of course, as is often be the case when bad behavior is not nipped in the bud, the problem escalated until something happened earlier this week that was really the last straw. 

 

So, this time I put my foot down and took some action that escalated the consequences in a way that seems to have gotten the misbehaving neighbors’ attention.  I’m sure they are pissed off, and it may have burned a bridge, but here’s the thing – whatever neighborly goodwill that had existed was really pretty one way anyway.  We behaved and they did not, and the only one suffering any real consequence for their bad behavior has been us.  In escalating my response, I changed that dynamic.  I made the person doing the misbehaving finally bear some of the consequences of their own misbehavior.  And, guess what?  It seems to have worked.  Since I escalated, the problem has stopped.

Isn’t that the way things often work with people who are just generally selfish or lack  good manners?  While many people seem naturally to assess the impact of their actions on others and adjust their behavior accordingly, some seem to lack that natural or socialized state of awareness. For whatever reason (bad raising, inherent self-centeredness, a combination of both . . .), they may not even notice that their actions are inappropriate or highly likely to annoy others.  

 

That creates a problem for those on the receiving end of the bad behavior.  They may be conflict-averse or simply prefer a “turn the other cheek” approach when confronted with rude or discourteous conduct.  But, the other person seems to lack either an awareness of the impact of their actions or any internal inclination to balance whatever pleasure they get out of the behavior against the annoyance or displeasure it causes others and, thus, when no one does anything about it, it's guaranteed that only person is feeling the consequences of a particular behavior are the innocent bystanders on the receiving end of it. 

So, while part of me feels kind of bad about escalating and is not wild about the fact that my neighbor now probably feels some ill-will toward me, another part of me feels good about turning the tables such that some of the consequences of an action were finally being borne by the person engaging in that conduct.  And, the fact that it took some significant escalation to finally get through to the offenders was on them, not on me.  I tried to deal with it more indirectly and less harshly after previous incidents, but they just blew me off.

 

 

I really don’t have a well-defined topic around this, but I’m interested in any DD-related experiences you may have had in which the offender just didn’t seem to realize how their behavior was impacting others or showed little interest in adjusting their behavior until someone impacted by it turned the tables and made sure the offender bore the consequences of their own actions.

Delayed Post

 Sorry all. I intended to post today but met with some unanticipated delays. Hopefully tomorrow.  Enjoy the rest of your Sunday.

The Club - Meeting 369 - Asking For It & First Conversations

"If you don't ask, the answer is always no." -- Nora Roberts

 

Hello all.  Welcome back to the Disciplinary Couple’s Club.  Our weekly gathering of men and women who are in, or would like to be in, Domestic Discipline relationships.

 

I hope you all had a great week.  Mine had some ups and downs.  On the upside, the weather this great was beautiful.  Good motorcycling and hiking weather may be right around the corner.

 

 

On the upside (sort of), after putting myself on a glidepath to taking some serious time off and maybe even a temporary retirement, for a while it looked like an opportunity that I’ve wanted for years might be within my grasp.  But, no luck.  Deep down inside, I knew it was for the best, as I know I’m nowhere close to really recovering from last year’s burnout, and I really do need to take some time to figure out what I want to be when I grow up.  But, it really did bum me out for a few days.  That moodiness and some behavioral issues has me concerned that I might be backsliding after several months of getting myself onto a much better path.  So, I made it clear to Anne over the weekend that it probably would be good for both of us to rein me in before I jump the guardrails in a big way.  We’ll see what comes of that but, in the meantime, it was a nice segue into a topic suggestion from Belle.  She sent me an email suggesting the following:

 

I would like to hear from every husband who presented DD to his wife: How exactly did he broach the subject? What exactly did he say? How did it go? What was his wife's initial reaction? Did the DD start immediately, or was it a process before the first spanking? And now, looking back on it, would he have approached her any differently? What advice would he give to men who want to ask their wives but aren't sure how?

 

These are very similar to a topic and sub-topics suggested by “Elizabeth” a couple of years ago, but let’s do it again.  I love these “origins” topics, and it seems like Anne and I have had such a long break, getting started again is almost like starting over entirely, including the necessity of me approaching her to ask for it.

 

 How did I approach her?  I did it after I found the DWC website and spent a weekend devouring it.  We were in bed, with the lights off, and I told her in general terms what it was about.  I'm not sure I could have done it any other way, except maybe by email, because I was so embarrassed by the whole thing.

 

How exactly did he broach the topic?  I approached Anne a few days after I discovered The Disciplinary Wives Club website and became a little obsessed. I was very embarrassed about it and had no idea how she would react.  I think because I was so embarrassed, I talked to her about it when we were in bed, with the lights off so she couldn’t see my face.  I broached it by telling her that I’d found this “interesting” website.  I told her in general what it was about.

 

What exactly did he say?  We had tried spanking as role-play, often involving her giving me play spankings as “punishment” for real misbehavior.  She had become concerned that this was simply reinforcing bad behavior, since the spankings weren’t real or any real deterrent and, because it was all foreplay, it was really just rewarding bad behavior with kinky sex.  So, when I told her about the DWC website, I emphasized that it was not really kink, or not just kink. Rather, it was about giving her real power to dole out real punishment for real offenses.  I also told her that the spankings were so real that the expectation was the husband would end up crying. I remember telling her that I felt our relationship was very unbalanced; that I was too domineering and controlling, while she was too passive. I told her DD might give her a way to even things out and take more control.

 

What was her initial reaction? How did it go? She didn’t say no, so that was a start.  She seemed at least somewhat interested, though it was kind of hard to tell what she was thinking. I would characterize it as puzzled, open, but noncommittal. I told her that I would send her a link to the website. She said she would check it out, but I kind of doubted she would.  I recall going to sleep even more wired and on edge, because I had no idea what to expect.  Honestly, I thought the most likely scenario was she wouldn't follow up at all, or that she would reject the idea as just more erotic spanking with the potential to encourage more bad behavior.

 

Well, I was in for a surprise.  She called me at work the next day and said she had looked at the website.  There was a pause, and she said something like: "Very interesting."  I asked what that meant. There was another pause, and she said something to the effect of, “Well, if you are really serious about this, I guess you better go buy me a heavy hairbrush.

 

Did the DD start immediately, or was it a process before the first spanking?  She gave me my first spanking that same night. I did as she’d said and left work early that afternoon to shop for a hairbrush.  It turned out to be more difficult than I’d thought to find a good quality, heavy wooden brush.  I did the best I could, but looking back, what I finally found and brought home was pretty flimsy.  What I really remember about that afternoon is walking around the mall with a raging hard-on in my pants and frantic butterflies in my stomach! It really was incredibly intense.  When I got home, we sat down after dinner and talked a little bit about what should be spankable, etc. I actually hadn’t done anything that met the criteria that recently, and she asked whether we were waiting until I did. I told her that I was afraid that if we did that, it would never happen, so I suggested we should get the first one over with that night. 

 

 

Looking back, would I have approached her any differently?  I don’t really think so.  I think I struck the right notes in the initial conversation, telling her why I thought this could be good for us and for her.  With the benefit of hindsight, maybe I should have prepared a little more, including taking more time to find a real brush, or maybe suggesting she start with a belt or something more serious than the too-flimsy brush I bought at her direction. But, I really had no idea whether she would respond positively to the whole thing, nor did I really have any concept of what a real adult spanking was like or what it required.  It took more experimentation and more serious tools before it became “real.” But, I think I did about all I could at the time given the state of my knowledge and experience. 

 

What advice would he give to men who want to ask their wives but aren't sure how? The way we did it ultimately worked, so for me the proof is in the pudding, so to speak.  While I hadn’t even heard of DD when we started experimenting with erotic spanking, I do think that early kink-based spanking may have lowered her inhibitions about the whole thing, so the ground was prepped a bit when the concept of DD came along.  I think giving her a resource like the DWC to look at and absorb at her own pace was helpful. I think it was also important to tell her honestly that I had found this concept and that it had hit me pretty hard.  I think she detected the earnestness in that conversation in bed in the dark.

 

So, please tell us how you or your husband approached you about having a DD relationship or asked you to give him a “real” spanking.  I look forward to hearing about it.

 

Have a great week.