“To say that we mutually agree to coercion is not to say that we are required to enjoy it, or even to pretend we enjoy it.” - Garrett Hardin
Hello all. Welcome back to the Disciplinary Couples Club. Our weekly gathering of men and women who are in, or would like to be in, Domestic Discipline relationships.
I hope you all had a great week. It was another snowy one here. I’m getting kind of tired of it. But, did you notice that we had another semi-normal week with a paucity of controversial national or international news. Could it be that the spirit of 2020 is FINALLY behind us?
I thought that was a great conversation last week. Thank you, Liz, for both the stories of getting spanked as a girl, and the discussion about regionalism and its influence on spanking practices and frequency when we were growing up. The focus on regionalism reminded me of this meme I saw recently and thought was pretty funny:
Part of the discussion about how prevalent spankings were in the communities where some of us grew up reminded me of this cartoon, which totally cracks me up:
She also speculated about what it might have been like to have her boyfriend (if that is the right word) spank her husband. (This Jay Em (altered) drawing is as close as I can come to something on point.)
I don’t know why, but
something about that – having to report to a third party that you got you got a
hard spanking because of something involving them – does something to me. It’s why I found this pic that I posted last
week really fascinating, along with this one that I also saw recently (perhaps
on Red’s blog?). I wonder who they are
This week’s topic is a suggestion by ZM from two weeks ago. He said:
Perhaps the more interesting issue than consent (which we have talked about extensively) is coercion. What role does coercion play in spanking? Just because DD is consensual, it doesn't mean that coercion isn't also being employed. Why do I take down my pants and bend over for a spanking? And what effect does that coercion have? Is it desirable or undesirable? And what does the interplay between coercion, dominance, and submission look like? BTW, coercion doesn't just apply to spanking. About the most interesting thing about the whole NXIUM cult was their use of "collateral" to use to coerce members into achieving their personal goals.
Even though we both know that I will in every case submit to her will on this, I still want to feel like she is coercing me somewhat. I want her to threaten me about what will happen if I check out other women, for example. Right now I am trying to lose weight, and I like knowing (though I dread it) that if I don't hit my weight target my bottom is going to pay a hefty price. In a very real way, this is similar to NXIUM only it is physical and personal.
I’ve read a lot about NXIUM since I first brought it up here many months ago, and I now do appreciate that a lot of what its leadership did really was appalling, particularly the Scientology-like way they retaliated and harassed anyone who tried to leave. And, then there was his thing for underaged girls and anorexic female bodies. But, some of the stuff he and his lieutenant came up with to help people reach their own goals and improve their performance still fascinates me. As ZM points out, there is a more or less direct analogy between what he was doing and our DD notions of consensual non-consent or, as ZM has focused on, coercion. The members of the group would turn over something that was valuable or, more often, embarrassing, knowing that if they didn’t do what they had agreed it would be forfeited or released to the world. Something I never quite got about the prosecution’s case was it sounded like there wasn’t much dispute that handing over this “collateral” was entirely voluntary, and the whole goal was for it to be used coercively to effect a behavioral change. So, there was consent to the overall arrangement, but after that there was a very coercive element. Also, there actually was a very “physical and personal” element to it, and it was exactly what we use with DD. This text exchange was highlighted in the HBO series about NXIUM:
ZM’s thoughts on this led these
observations from Alan:
The consensual model has been borrowed from contemporary norms of sexual behavior and it is not a perfect fit for adult spanking. That is why we have invented incongruities like “consensual non consent”. “Consent” doesn’t fit that well both due to the nature of disciplinary spanking and due to the needs of most spankos to feel a punishment is being imposed on them or they are being made to obey. To complicate it even further, a lot of the spankings I get are really not wanted (at the time) and for sure during many spankings I do not want it to continue (at that time).Later of course I am very happy she did what she did. Thus the dilemma, how does one consent to something really not wanted (at the time). The answer I think is that consent once given is in practice rarely withdrawn as long as the relationship continues.
And, this from Brett:
Thinking about it, I’d have to say that the why does matter. If I’m obedient to my wife because I’m such a nice guy, or I love her just that much, or I’m naturally submissive, hate confrontations or other such character traits, it’s missing the key ingredient that my obedience is compelled by the threat of a spanking. Obedience is also demonstrated in the submission to punishment, but what makes it so embarrassing and humbling is when obedience is perceived to be compelled, not by willing submission, but by her will to power.
Belle observed that her man submitting to a spanking voluntarily is sexy, but it sounds like even there the sexual charge in the obedience isn’t the submission itself but, rather, that it is happening as a direct result of her exercise of female or authority, or what Brett called her “will to power.”
For me, the “imposed” element of DD, the act of being brought to heel by another’s expression of will and power, has always been a key part of the attraction. The very first fiction story on the Disciplinary Wives Club website is about a woman imposing a spanking, and the entire DD relationship, in retribution for some comments her husband made about another woman. At first, he can’t believe what she is saying. Then he objects, then starts trying to plead, leading her to tell him exactly how it is going to be:
“At that point Becky's look became determined; her voice quiet, but assured. "I will forget it after I have brought you to tears, dear, then all will be forgiven. But I don't want you to think for one instant that there is ANY way you can avoid my spanking you. There isn't. And furthermore, in the future, I shall make it a practice to spank you whenever I feel you need it, and you will accept it as you did your mother's spankings. Most men can profit from a dose of maternal discipline, and from now on you will be one of the lucky ones."
While the woman imposing the DD relationship is certainly
the exception and not the rule, it does seem to be a powerful part of the attraction. It certainly is for me. As is the idea of coercion. I really do wish there was something Anne
would do that would make it clear that while being spanked by her may have been
my idea initially, now there is no going back. I think part of my attraction to Jay Em's drawings like the one above has always been that there really is not much of an element of consent. Similarly, in KD's story that we discussed last week, there may ultimately be consent, but only after a very large dose of coercion.
Yet, it is complicated. One thing I’ve never been able to figure out is how I can be so completely anti-authoritarian at work, yet I have this thing for being under the authority of a strong, aggressive woman. I have almost no respect for authority at work and never have, especially if that authority is a man. Yet, I’ve talked here about a dream I had that involved being taken out of an office gathering to be spanked by a male office manager. And, the prospect of being bossed around by a very strong woman absolutely does something to me. Even more complicated, stories like Danielle’s about her husband being spanked on the orders of another man and then having to report the spanking to that other man definitely do spark that desire I have to submit to authority. It is a very odd mix of personality attributes, and I really don’t have a good explanation for it.
The other issue is, coercion and imposed discipline may be a compelling fantasy, but in real life I think they are much more complicated. My friend Jane over at the Tamed Shrew blog, https://shrewtamed.blogspot.com/, recently talked about a situation in which her husband suddenly decided to spank her for something that actually was “spankable” under their arrangement, but it came after a long break and took her by surprise. The result was resistance and resentment. KD has also talked about the necessity, for him, of agreeing on some level that the facts actually do support the fairness or justice of the sentence. In short, it does seem like in the real world some amount of “buy in” probably is required.
Though, again, it’s complicated. I can’t think of a time when Anne has spanked me that I thought I truly did not deserve it. But, there have been a couple of times that I thought it was much harder than had really been earned. And, yeah, in the moment I did feel resentment about it. But, afterward, it was a turn-on thinking about her exercising her power and authority like that, spanking as long and as hard as she thought I deserved.
Like ZM, I don’t know exactly where to take this topic, and I probably have drifted a little from “coercion” and into non-consent. But, feel free to address whatever aspects of the two come to mind.
Have a great week.