The greatest remedy for anger is delay. - Lucius Annaeus Seneca
Hello all. Welcome back to The Disciplinary Couple’s Club. Our weekly on-line gathering of men and women who are in, or would like to be in, a Domestic Discipline or Female Led Relationship.
I hope you all had a great week. Or, rather, weeks. It seems like several since I’ve been very engaged with this group. Probably because it has, in fact, been weeks. First, there was vacation. Then there was Covid. Then there was the past week, when I was off dealing with an unanticipated family thing.
It's also been that way on the home front where DD is concerned. Only more so. First, there was the hiatus while Anne’s wrist was in a cast or she was still rehabilitating that injury. Though, honestly, I behaved pretty well during that whole period.
However, things started to degenerate about the time she was mostly recovered. Mostly small stuff. But, some things stuck in my craw, with some real annoyance at myself. We went out with another couple one evening, and a bit too much of a good time was had by me and the other husband. Nothing too extreme, but enough that I regretted it the next day, especially since it broke a multi-week chain of good behavior.
Second, I had one of those acts of carelessness that wasn’t a big deal in and of itself but could have become a big deal under other circumstances. I’ve reported here before that one “small thing” Anne has spanked me for is forgetting to clean our rice maker after dinner. I did it again recently, but this time I didn’t just fail to clean it. I left it plugged in and on overnight. Nothing happened, but it seems like the kind of thing that could result in a fire under the right circumstances. I was angry at myself about it and, honestly, I probably would have self-reported it and maybe even suggested a spanking if we hadn’t left on vacation shortly after that.
Third, while on vacation there were a couple of incidents—including one instance of significant disobedience—that should have gotten me spanked, and would have except for the fact that as soon as we got back home we both ended up with Covid.
So, on the one hand, I feel like there has been an accumulation of bad behavior, none of which was addressed. On the other hand, quite a bit of time has passed since each of those bad acts.
We’ve talked about delayed punishment here several times. The conversation usually has revolved around how punishment needs to happen relatively soon after the offense if it is to be an effective deterrent.
However, domestic discipline is not just about deterring bad behavior. We’ve talked about how it helps “clear the air” or results in a “clean slate,” preventing any lingering resentment or bad feelings. Yet, that also tends to happen naturally with the passage of time. Indeed, if there is too long a gap between the offense and the punishment, the whole thing can feel kind of pointless.
We’ve had a few commenters here who have said their wives will seldom, if ever, let any substantial offense go unpunished. Even if it takes several days or weeks, they will make sure it does not go unaddressed.
What I’m really interested in, however, is the point of view from the other end of the paddle. Are there times that you, the disciplined husbands, ever feel like an offense or series of offenses really should be addressed even if a substantial period of time has passed?
I’m asking because, honestly, that’s the way I’ve been feeling. Regarding the act of carelessness I referred to above, it’s something Anne has spanked me for before and likely would have this time had she discovered it and done so before we left on vacation. And, I really am mad at myself for it, because while nothing bad really happened as a result of my screw-up, it could have. As for the other bad acts, while my feeling that they really do require some accountability has dissipated, it hasn’t gone away completely.
Usually, if I avoid a spanking after some bit of bad behavior, I may feel some mild regret, but it’s usually offset by an understandable sense of relief. So, why is this time different?
First, I think it’s because the conduct involved some things I myself care about. It’s not just about breaking some rule but about feeling like I screwed up and there really should be a consequence for that even if time has passed.
Second, before Anne hurt her hand, she really was ramping up her strictness. Discipline also just seemed much more “top of mind” for her. She was spanking me for something almost weekly, and she was starting to do things like reminding me about journaling regularly and owning up to bad behavior. While my ass didn’t enjoy the increased attention, it felt like we were on a good trajectory where her exercising more control was concerned. It was emotionally challenging for me, but that’s always been part of the point of doing this – pushing my limits where humbling and giving up control are concerned.
Third, and relatedly, I sometimes go through phases in which I feel myself drifting more and more outside prudent boundaries and start to feel a deep need to be reined in hard and consistently. After what has turned into a substantial hiatus from discipline, I find myself in one of those moods now. The need I feel for discipline isn’t closely tied to any of the misconduct described above but, rather, a more general feeling that I need Anne to take stricter, more firm control for a while. Fortunately for my mental state, but unfortunately for my ass, I get the sense that Anne is kind of looking for an excuse to impose such control again, as she has proactively brought up discipline a couple of times lately, including asking whether I had anything that needed to go into my journal.
How about you? Does time usually dissipate whatever need you felt for penance, or are there times that you regret “getting away with it”? Does that regret rise to the level that you will actually request that she deal with it? How does your wife feel about the passage of time after an offense? If enough time has passed, does she tend to forget about the behavior and/or just let it slide? Or, is she one of the seemingly rare wives who seldom, if ever, lets a substantial offense go unpunished?
I hope you have a great week. Sorry again for the inconsistent posting.
Dan, as you know after a brief hiatus, my wife seems to be back on board with our DD. It took a poor decision on my part by volunteering her. I’m not sure why such a quick turn around. I was spanked while on vacation but nothing severe. She did state when we get back home, she would take a more active approach to my behavior. I half heartedly thought it was just talk. After my back to back thrashings Wed. and Thurs. I was asked how my bottom was. I stated sore and slightly bruised. Her response was, well you better shape up because there are plenty more coming. Your attitude needs to be adjusted. As for this weeks topics, I feel the need to be punished immediately for my actions. I think it’s diminished if it’s put off. How can the lesson be learned weeks later. I still can’t bring myself to ask for a thrashing, but based on her actions, I might not ever need to “self-report”. I was actually starting to think we were slightly moving away from DD, until this past week. I was becoming a bit frustrated and out of nowhere she changed course. After the second spanking, I did offer plenty of encouragement and told her I needed that from her and it’s been too long. She agreed and I was beet red, on both cheeks. As for the last part, I hope she turns into the wife who won’t let anything substantially go. I know for a fact based on my bottom, I won’t be volunteering her for anything ever again. I was proud of her. She gave me multiple spankings; that I could not wait for to end and then continued on.
ReplyDeleteT
I forgot to mention, thanks again for providing an outlet for us. I’m sure most don’t say it enough, but I know I can’t discuss it with anyone outside my wife. It’s refreshing to be able to discuss DD with open minded individuals.
DeleteT
"I was proud of her. She gave me multiple spankings; that I could not wait for to end and then continued on."
DeleteProud is what I too feel when Anne steps up her level of control or when she is especially strict.
You're welcome. Thanks for participating.
DeleteAgree completely. TG
DeleteI'll second T's thanks, it is nice to be able to hear about similar folks.
ReplyDeleteI think that you are overdue for a beating! If I haven't been spanked for a while I get needy and can't focus on much else. If Anne is better and is making overtures about reimposing discipline, it sounds to me that she is looking for approval to put it in place. Not that I'm an expert in women, but I think that unless we are really open to it, they struggle with having the confidence to unilaterally impose it. When there has been a hiatus it is even harder for her to restart.
Dan, you need to fill out your journal completely and honestly and take it to her! I see a very sore bottom in your near future.
We've talked about my one experience with "immediacy" last week and I think that it's the ideal.
On a happy note, I believe that I may be up for a nice good boy strapping and performance of oral service this morning...
"Dan, you need to fill out your journal completely and honestly and take it to her!
DeleteDone
Good job, you've done your bit Dan
DeleteMark wrote "I believe I may be up for a good boy strapping.....this morning ". I wonder if the concept of "Good Boy spanking" is one for the future Dan? I'm intrigued by the idea but tend to think it shouldn't replace consequences spanking (see earlier comments about Mrs GL's reluctance to punish if I get a kick out of it). Just an idea (apologies if I'm over posting this week, it's a 4 day weekend for me and I have lots of thinking time LOL).
DeleteGLM, we have a strap that hurts but not too bad and after prolonged application gives a very hot bottom which I really like. If I havent been spanked for a while I sometimes ask for it. As it happens it didn't happen but is still on the table this week (provided I dont get myself into trouble first). This addresses my need for a beating without being DD.
DeleteConsequences are provided by wooden paddle (of which we have a number) or the cane. Both of these hurt me far too much for me to ever request voluntarily. They are reserved for application as a consequence for bad behaviour.
Doubt I'll go there as a topic. I try to keep the blog focused on the DD niche, versus spanking generally. Rewarding being good with a spanking seems like kind of the exact opposite of a DD usage. Therefore, I don't think it's a good fit for a topic.
DeleteFair point Dan.
DeleteOf all things I don't really understand surrounding spanking in its many forms, it is the whole "good boy/girl spanking" thing! I am very turned on the thought of spanking and always have been, but I just really don't like actually getting spanked, so it could never be a reward for me. My wife likes role play, so sometimes we will do something on that front, and almost always there is some spanking involved. In those cases, the whole thing is exciting enough - especially considering how much she enjoys it and it turns her on - that it makes the spanking part of those role plays ok, but still I would never look forward to even those spankings.
Delete-ZM
ZM, that's pretty much were I am. During the very brief period in which we experimented with erotic spankings, it was a turn-on for me for a brief period, but even then it was more about her taking on a dominant role than about the spanking. And, when she concluded that she was rewarding bad behavior with spanking, that was an obvious problem for her. Even had she not put an end to it, the bottom line for me was that spanking had some attraction but not enough to be self-sustaining. Over time, I've come to understand that without the "real" DD accountability and penance elements, spanking doesn't do much of anything for me.
DeleteDan, the spanking is not erotic for me either. I call it a good boy spanking because I haven't done anything to earn a punishment, and that I've been allowed to ask for it. Allows me to maintain a DD dynamic, whilst satisfying my need and (psycholgical?) fascination with spanking without misbehaving to earn one. The good boy spanking accomplishes a reset, enhances closenest with wife, and keeps her in the habit of beating me. The above is achieved with a strap that hurts, but is not the panic inducing climb out of one's skin hurt that I feel with a paddle or cane. This latter is still available for proper punishments as she decrees.
DeleteWe've wrestled with this problem too. On the rare occasion my wife doesn't punish me for an offense, days after I was due, she will say that she didn't get to it and wasn't going to spank me. On more than one occasion, I asked her to spank me anyway. I felt guilty that I didn't remind her, or that life go in the way. Most of the time, I agree with her. My memory of the offense has faded and spanking me wouldn't be particularly useful.
ReplyDelete"My memory of the offense has faded and spanking me wouldn't be particularly useful." That's how I usually feel about it too, but for some reason it feels different this time.
DeleteDan writes: “ I sometimes go through phases in which I feel myself drifting more and more outside prudent boundaries and start to feel a deep need to be reined in hard and consistently….”
ReplyDeleteThere are at least two issues here that I can identify with. The first “drifting” is something I experienced as “acting out” with a former GF when I felt guilty or remorse, and it wasn’t addressed with some discipline. In acting out, my attitude and behavior deteriorated badly. I experienced this first and much more frequently with that former GF, who learned to use the mood swings to signal that she needed to threaten or carry out discipline or, as she put it, me “going off the rails.”
My wife doesn’t let things get to that point often if ever, probably because she was once on the other side of the paddle and recognizes the acting out for what it is –a cry for discipline, or as you put it to be “reined in”
The other issue you raise is the length of time before discipline is no longer needed or appropriate. This taps into one of the purposes of punishment that we don’t discuss as often as we do deterrence and behavior modification. I am thinking of “retribution,” which is punishing simply because the person committed an offense where the suffering should be proportionate to the severity of the offense committed -- punishment for punishment’s sake aside from or absent any other purposes of the punishment –and no matter how long it has been since the offending behavior.
I think every couple makes their own rules about this –where life intervenes long enough for feelings to subside and a misbehavior or attitude is far in the rear mirror. I feel that if a male in a female-led relationship still feels guilt or is “acting out" feelings like I experienced early with my former GF, punishment should be administered. Otherwise, there are times to let it go, and both learn from it without physical punishment.
The critical thing is either partner's absence or presence of negative feelings. As we know, Spankings purge a lot of negativity, which is a weighty element in deciding whether to punish long after a punishable event.
Alan
"I am thinking of “retribution,” which is punishing simply because the person committed an offense where the suffering should be proportionate to the severity of the offense committed -- punishment for punishment’s sake aside from or absent any other purposes of the punishment –and no matter how long it has been since the offending behavior."
DeleteAlan, I agree that retribution is a purpose for punishment that we don't talk about that often, though I think of it sometimes when we've talked here about things like spankings or implements that seem "too severe" because they cause us to "man up" and resist internally instead of surrendering. Sometimes I think maybe there are times that the severity needs to be very high in order for the punishment to fit the "crime." Though, I do still tend to think of retribution as being a function of her feelings about the bad behavior, and those can diminish over time, thereby limiting the likelihood she will punish after some substantial amount of time has passed.
I don't think I ever "act out," to the extent that means misbehaving in order try to get her to punish. At least I don't do it consciously. It's more like I start unconsciously taking advantage of the lack of consistency. It's kind of like trying to get away with something, though I seldom think anything like that consciously.
I found T’s comment “how can the lesson be learned” interesting as for me it’s not about that. When a small child is spanked (no, I don’t subscribe to spanking children) I think it can be seen as a lesson, reinforcing the understanding that they’ve done something they shouldn’t. For adults in DD though, we know when we have done something wrong and deserving of discipline so there’s no lesson to be learned. We’ve talked about this before, maybe from her point of view the purpose is “consequences,” I’m not entirely sure, but from my point of view the biggest single driver is to assuage guilt. For small things, it probably should be a quick response - behavior modification is as good an overall description as any and certainly matches how we’ve always viewed discipline. However, for something more major I don’t think the timing matters. Drawing from personal experience, when I’ve either broken a basic rule (speeding ticket, credit card late fee etc) or I’ve really screwed up and upset her significantly, I’m going to feel bad about it until it’s dealt with, even if it takes her weeks to do so. And in answer to something that came up I think a couple of weeks ago, it does sometimes happen that she sees spanking me as a chore and a nuisance - one more thing that she has to fit into her busy schedule. Fortunately that is not the situation often. TG
ReplyDeleteThanks, TG. I do think there can still be a lesson to be learned as adults. It's not about the wrongfulness of the conduct but, rather, that there will be an externally imposed consequence for it.
DeleteFor me, DD does play a role in assuaging guilt, but it sounds like you hold onto that guilt a lot longer than I usually do. I may be really upset with myself for a few days or a week, but it almost always is time-bound and on a fairly short timeline. As talked about in my post, for some reason this time the feeling that I need to suffer some consequences has lasted a while, but for me it is exceptional. Usually, a week is about the outer boundary on my guilt and perceived need for penance.
TG says, "However, for something more major I don’t think the timing matters."
DeleteI agree. And, to a certain extent, allowing our partner to punish us is a matter of submission. It shows we are willing to take pain because we love them. So, even if there's a time disconnect between the behavior and the punishment, taking the punishment is still an act of submission.
Dan, I’m kind of right with you on the guilt part. My guilt only last a few days max. I gotta disagree with TG above, although I see his point. I learned a valuable lesson about not volunteering my wife for anything again. I will definitely consult her prior to making decisions; where she must perform a task for the family. The consequences for my action and attitude, were a very severe two day thrashing. For me to make that mistake again, would be a lesson not learned.
DeleteT
I found that when I was spanked frequently (daily or nearly daily) for the same problem, the memory of the pain, the soreness, and the little twinge in the butt would remind me to do the right thing. For one persistent problem I would actually feel desperate and a little fearful and work harder at it. It was a wonderful feeling after years of making no progress on it.
DeleteGuilt worked differently for me. I felt bad having to impose the duty to spank me on my wife. The spanking itself didn't wash away that feeling, only doing better the next day.
Both pain and guilt motivated avoidance for me.
I don't know what I would do if I needed to be spanked to deal with guilty feelings. That seems like it would be a very hard burden if the spanking couldn't happen for awhile, perhaps triggering depression. That's just my poor understanding and I'd like to learn more about what that feels like, especially when the resolution is delayed a few weeks.
"I found that when I was spanked frequently (daily or nearly daily) for the same problem, the memory of the pain, the soreness, and the little twinge in the butt would remind me to do the right thing."
DeleteOn the surface, daily spankings might seem excessive, but I get what you mean. Memory is a funny thing where real disciplinary spankings are concerned. We've been doing this for close to 20 years, yet I'm *always* surprised at how much more it hurts than I remember when there is no tangible spanking threat looming over me. I have no idea why my memory of the reality of the pain is so wrong, but it is.
I can also see how for some really deeply rooted behaviors, near daily spankings might be necessary. I quit smoking long before we had a DD relationship, but I can see how using DD to quit smoking probably would have required near daily spankings, because the smoking habit (and the physical addiction) were so well-established.
Guilt worked differently for me. I felt bad having to impose the duty to spank me on my wife. The spanking itself didn't wash away that feeling, only doing better the next day." I haven't experienced that personally but I understand what you mean.
Yes, it was an addiction of mine that was requiring that frequency.
DeleteIt was stressful for my wife to have to keep track of it so closely, even when I set up some automated systems to let her know how I was doing. It was a significant chunk of her free time outside of work she hadn't planned to spend when she agreed to try disciplining. Hardly a fantasy scenario for her and not for me either when we ended up fighting about it.
I think the close attention did help me make permanent progress, though, and it was wild to suddenly be regularly marching downstairs in front of a woman holding a brush!
I'm usually on the other side of the paddle, but in my experience, physical punishment really is best when it is near in time to the offense.
ReplyDeleteHowever, not all discipline needs to be physical. So, if there's a significant gap, I might lean toward requiring some kind of non-physical punishment. For example, I might require my submissive to write up all the misbehavior and take responsibility for it. Then, I might assign lines or corner time. After which, I would have pointed questions about the future.
I think all misbehavior should be acknowledged by the dominant, even if there is no punishment dished out. To fail to recognize that your sub has misbehaved sends the message to them you aren't really paying attention to their behavior. And, it is also the responsibility of the submissive to confess to bad behavior. So, it would be entirely appropriate to go to her and say, "I misbehaved when we were away. I just want to acknowledge that." That gives her the opportunity to either let you off or not.
Also, if you are not quite feeling the submission, you might arrange for her to put you through your paces. You could set aside a weekend where you will simply obey her. She will have the opportunity to put you back in a submissive mindset.
Just be prepared for a Monday of sitting gingerly.
"Also, if you are not quite feeling the submission, you might arrange for her to put you through your paces. You could set aside a weekend where you will simply obey her. She will have the opportunity to put you back in a submissive mindset.
DeleteI don't disagree, though this seems to me to be something that would more likely be a part of a D/s or BDSM dynamic.
Well, if it happens within a FLR, then I suspect it will have a DD flavor. But, of course, YMMV!
DeleteThis week's topic cuts across a few issues I have been thinking recently (I tend to do 99.9% of the thinking about our new regime mainly because Mrs GL doesn't care to). As we are still very much in the early stages of our semi-formal FLDD just because their is thinking doesn't necessarily mean their is progress.
ReplyDeleteTake behaviour levels. Both of us are still working out what is "significant" (the word used to say that deserves a seperate chastisement) and what is "minor"and gets either totted up and theoretically dealt with at the next scheduled reinforcement session or allowed to pass. So, what seems to be happening is Mrs GL is letting everything pass and is yet to announce anything as significant and I'm jotting down what I think was infringements and for all intense and purposes self-reporting. Now to be fair to Mrs GL I would say, like a VAR review in proper football, whether any of those minors could have been classed as significant is interpretive. My problem is, notwithstanding I have promised to be deliberately misbehave, is until I get my first chastisement for a significant behavioural offence I am on tenterhooks wondering how Mrs GL will apply and how uncomfortable it will be? I may be on tenterhooks for some time.
Now earlier this weekend was a reinforcement and before it I made reference to 4 minors I wanted her to take into account "to clear the decks" and they, to my surprise, garnered a pre session clarification enquiry. Mrs GL has one barrier (one I can't argue against) which is she thinks I would enjoy all levels of chastisement up to what she believes is her limit in chastising. If she knew about my previous use of disciplarians she'd know she is probably right about that! She has already suggested it should be the other way around, I should have reinforcement cut back if I misbehave, but I resisted that saying it cuts against what we recently agreed. Consequently the session was a mixture of normal but a hint of extra, alas without the accompanying telling-off (I know from knowing her she will get everything else right before she even considers upping her game their).
Finally on this week's topic direction, I am wondering whether I should make my first post formalising request for a hard spanking (her interpretation of what that is) before I suffer my first significant behavioural consequences? And, of course, its 50/50. I deserve one for work related stuff (basically cruising in first gear for months) and stress relief but am convinced she would raise the bar on where significant accures if I'm making direct requests (even if they would be few and far between). To add to complications I am yet to suffer a pre-emptive strike (her side family wedding next month, if that doesn't get me a pre-emptive strikes nothing will) and maybe I should find a way to merge that and requests?
Anyway, drifted a bit here but great and well timed topic and I also thank you for a forum where to just say these things to a friendly audience. Cheers GLM.
Sorry just seen a typo, it should read "not deliberately provoke".
Delete"Misbehave" not provoke. Having senior moments LOL.
Delete"I tend to do 99.9% of the thinking about our new regime mainly because Mrs GL doesn't care to." That seems to be a very prevalent pattern among "Tops" and bottoms.
DeleteI do think that defining what is "significant" or "substantial" leaves a lot to individual interpretation. Anne and I definitely aren't always on the same page on those determinations, and it's further complicated by the fact that she's always been disinclined to act on some things that I think we both agree she *should* address, like snarky attitude directed at her.
The way you describe the situation, I do wonder whether leaving so much to Mrs. GL's discretion is really going to work for you two. It sounds like she sets the bar at very different places than you'd like it to be and worries a lot about inadvertently agreeing to a system that may "reward" you for bad behavior.
Dan, oh I'm clear that me and Mrs GL are not on the same page but it's not because I'm not being clear, more she isn't letting that (nor the written version she has been given) dictate her response. Work in progress still. I'm patient. Cheers GLM.
DeleteHaving a journal of log of offences that merit punishment which she can refer to is the key to avoiding delayed or 'missed' punishments.
ReplyDeleteMy wife and I have tried various tools in the past and while they work for a while the issue is that they take time and effort to complete so they end up falling by the wayside.
Recently we have experimented with using Alexa's skills to create a list she can review at any time with no effort.
I have set up a list called 'Glen's Report Card' and can ask Alexa to add anything to it.
My wife can then ask Alexa what is on my report card and Alexa will give her a list.
The list can be cleared once the offences have been taken care of.
We don't include dates but I believe you can include one to make it a kind of log.
Works pretty well for us so far, although the only concern I have is the privacy of Alexa?
It might be worth a try if you are ok with that aspect.
I do keep a journal, with part of the goal being to document and bring to her attention things that need punishment. For me, the issue isn't the time and effort required but, rather, doing it even when I know it will result in getting spanked. It takes a certain amount of willpower, which in my case can be spotty.
DeleteMe keeping a journal is important to ensure she doesn't miss anything that will result with me getting a spanking. We do a check in twice a week, and they both begin with me reading from the journal. The Monday check in always ends with a spanking that goes on for at least 5 minutes. The other check in usually ends with a spanking, and how hard and long the spanking goes on varies. We are retired, so nothing gets in the way of this routine. It really helps me stay on track to know she will provide discipline when needed. She is enthuiastic about doing this with me, and it is always a loving and intimate time for us.
DeleteI forgot to mention that you can also add a custom routine on Alexa and she will remind you that it needs to be done.
ReplyDeleteAnne could add 'Give Dan a Spanking' to her routine.
You can also share the list, report card or routine with each other.
Hmm. Not sure Alexa and Amazon are where I'd put my trust with that information. Though, it is an interesting idea for using technology for reminders.
DeleteAnne does use Alexa but, honestly, the whole notion of that little electronic gadget listening at all times weirds me out. I spent my entire career in a very tech-adjacent area, but I'm a bit of a Luddite where electronics and surveillance are concerned.
It just occurred to me that we recently used a dog-sitter who hung out at our house for a week while we were on vacation. Imagine if I'd programmed Alexa or Siri to automatically give a weekly verbal reminder. Though, I don't know whether you can actually do that, or do you have to verbally prompt Alexa to tell you what is on a list?
DeleteYou can use the Alexa App to clear or remove lists if you are away or have guests.
DeleteYou can also just use the app and share it if you do not wish the voice activation option.
These days I believe most of us have a worry that tools like Alexa are 'listening in " but so could your fridge or dryer.
There is an app called AnyList that we use for various shopping lists, things to stream, restaurants to try, etc. you can set it to share with others, but it is otherwise private, or as private as anything in the cloud. In any case it sends notifications when updates are made to a list so updates to a behavior log would be communicated promptly.
ReplyDeleteNow just to get my wife into a discipline or accountability arrangement…
3pops
Another option for shareable lists is Microsoft's To Do app.
DeleteGood luck in getting your wife into a DD arrangement!
‘ Not that I'm an expert in women, but I think that unless we are really open to it, they struggle with having the confidence to unilaterally impose it.’ This is a key point I believe in most DD relationships & certainly in ours. My wife will often take the initiative and make me submit to a spanking. But she will equally as often delay, postpone or simply let slide misbehaviour. This inconsistency is frustrating for me and when we have discussed it she will admit that she sometimes does not feel completely confident in taking the full responsibility for the decision to spank me. To be fair, I know when it is due or needed 95% of the time and a well executed spanking clears the air & clears my head. So I have agreed to let her know when I feel the time is right or overdue. This is really hard for me but she responded very positively to my very first admission that I felt it was needed. She agreed, thanked me for my honesty and delivered the necessary punishment.
ReplyDeleteUnusually, the post spanking euphoria, clear head & lighter mood has lasted through nearly a week with some interesting tests. This may be coincidence but I am keen to see how this change in approach develops. TB
"This inconsistency is frustrating for me and when we have discussed it she will admit that she sometimes does not feel completely confident in taking the full responsibility for the decision to spank me."
DeleteWhile my wife articulates it a little differently, I think for a long time she felt that same way. She probably still does to a certain extent, but her confidence has improved in huge ways over the last year or two.
It's great that you are experiencing such long-lasting euphoria and mood improvement.
The #1 complaint I hear from submissives is inconsistency in doms. Maybe they do need an app--just not something on Alexa or Siri.
DeleteOur DD suffers greatly from lack of consistency, but I don't think the inconsistency comes from any single cause. Probably at least part of it is her lacking the confidence to unilaterally impose it, but at least some of that is driven by my tendency to try to talk my way out of a spanking, rather than her lacking confidence in herself. So if she lacks confidence, it is not so much in herself or her judgement, but rather in the likelihood that I will gracefully accept the punishment.
DeleteBut confidence aside, there are also many times that she simply doesn't think to turn to punishment (after all, DD is a very small percentage of our lives), and then even those times she does manage to think of punishment, life often gets in the way.
-ZM
ZM, all those elements have been at play with our lack of consistency, too.
DeleteOne of the conclusions we can come to is that there are now lots of easy and convenient tools for us to report bad behaviour to our wives , but we are sometimes reluctant to do it because of the consequences.
ReplyDeleteI suppose that type of reluctance is natural because as kids we wouldn't report poor behaviour to our parents or Teachers no matter how easy it was.
Agreed. It seems like it almost has to be combined with some sort of interrogation or formal reporting mechanism, similar to what Norton describes above and ZM has described previously. Something like a reminder that goes to her by text, email, or other notification, telling her to ask both herself and me whether this anything else I need to report.
DeleteYeah, self reporting pretty much kills the whole "imposed" dynamic, even if it is being done at her request. And for me, the feeling of DD being imposed is super important, probably more so that for many others. On the other hand, when she interrogates you, then it feels even more imposed.
Delete-ZM
I'm right there with you on the need for DD to feel imposed. I'm finding, however, that the written journal in which I do talk about things I've done but also go into other things going through my mind or that I'm dealing with still leaves enough discretion--particularly as to timing--that it can still feel imposed. It's not quite the feeling of it being forced that happens when she reacts in the moment to something she's pissed at, but it's not quite like suggesting it or asking for it either. Also, while it does work a bit against the imposed feeling, sometimes asking for it when it's deserved can be very humbling and creates a sense of vulnerability given how much I don't want the spanking itself.
DeleteMy wife never expected me to self-report. What I did wrong that didn't get back to her was not punished -- unless she decided to ask questions. I was expected to answer truthfully, and I did.
ReplyDeleteBut most of what I was punished for was behavior she saw or heard. She would absolutely not tolerate misbehavior in front of her, as she said it reflected poorly on her and her success in training me. She would stop the behavior immediately with a word or gesture. And I then knew I was in for a hard spanking at her earliest convenience. I don't recall her ever forgetting to administer that. So we didn't have the issue some of you describe.
Yes, afterwards there was a closeness and my good behavior sometimes lasted for weeks.
KOJ
KOJ writes: “ My wife never expected me to self-report. What I did wrong that didn't get back to her was not punished -- unless she decided to ask questions. I was expected to answer truthfully, and I did.”
DeleteWe have tried many reporting and behavior-monitoring systems over the years. Of all of them, the scheduled behavior review with a written record or log-in hand containing things she has ordered to be listed is the only structured system that has worked very well. And, importantly), the log entries need to come from her. She has to be invested in the behavior at issue. It is a simple process. I am told to put an entry into the log, and then it and anything else she has ordered in the log get discussed when during a regular behavior review.
Other than this system, however, what KOJ is describing is very practical and puts no pressure on her to monitor my behavior if she doesn’t want to do so or pressure on me to self-report, which doesn’t work very well for reasons we have discussed. It allows her to probe particular behavior if she chooses and can build trust because she knows you won’t lie to her even if it exposes you to punishment.
Almost every male in a female-led DD relationship probably wants more “consistency,” and I am no exception. But I have learned that you must let her drive the bus if you want long-term success. If you really want her to be in charge, you have to let her be in charge her way.
Alan
Alan wrote "if you really want her to be in charge, you have to let her be in charge her way". I think this is a profound truth on one level but also so difficult on another when, as in the case of Chez Good Life, direct communication on the subject is avoided as much as possible and replaced with occasional small windows of opportunity to progress. I have no answers to that contradiction (except maybe I want her to take charge her way with my help). Time will tell on how that goes. Cheers GLM.
DeleteMy wife is pretty much what KOJ described with regard to self-reporting. If she doesn't see it or know about it, I get a pass. But she may choose to interrogate me, and she expects complete honesty.
DeleteWhere we differ is on the whole "I then knew I was in for a hard spanking at her earliest convenience. I don't recall her ever forgetting to administer that." For us, my wife often forgets to follow through with spankings.
-ZM
My wife doesn’t expect me to self report either, and I feel embarrassed to tell on myself because that feels like fishing for a spanking. I get the feeling that my wife spanks me as much for her own benefit as for mine. What I mean is that it is away for her to express annoyance or disapproval when my behaviour annoys or inconveniences her. Thus, she doesn’t care much about “misbehaviour” that she doesn’t notice. Like ZM’s wife, mine frequently forgets to follow through on spankings if she doesn’t do it when she is in the mood. To be honest, having the threat of a spanking hanging over me and not knowing whether she is going to follow through sometimes keeps me in an unpleasantly prolonged state of suspense, and once I am sure she isn’t going to follow through, I feel like she is neglecting me. I know that’s childish of me, but I can’t help it.
DeleteGH
My wife is pretty much the "spank now and ask questions later" type. There have been many occasions when we would start to argue over something, and as soon as I began to get the least bit smart-assed or loud, I was being told to go get the paddle. End of argument. Especially now the kids are out of the house.
ReplyDeleteOn another note, Alan wrote earlier up the thread: "My wife doesn’t let things get to that point often if ever, probably because she was once on the other side of the paddle and recognizes the acting out for what it is –a cry for discipline, or as you put it to be “reined in”
I've never really considered this point - since it doesn't apply to us, but I can see that experience as a bottom could definitely provide additional insights for the bottom who evolved into a top. And, I don't think this is necessarily uncommon for women who are perhaps more into the BDSM world than strictly DD. I believe that I've told the story here before of how our friend (one of my wife's old college girl friends) came out to us just a few years back about being into BDSM/Kink (and this resulted in her becoming one of the very few who know of our DD relationship). One of the things she talked about was how it was not uncommon for women to be bottoms in their twenties, switches in their thirties, and tops in their forties. - And, coincidentally, in my reading over the years, it does seem that many DWC wives pick up the paddle sometime in their late thirties to mid forties.
(And her friend became the third woman to spank me - after my wife, and her sister. Although it was more "in fun", it was intense enough to still leave me with a very sore and well reddened bottom. I wore a jock strap, covering the genitals but exposing the buns, as I do with her sister).
--al
"One of the things she talked about was how it was not uncommon for women to be bottoms in their twenties, switches in their thirties, and tops in their forties."
DeleteI've heard that before, too. But, it could have been from you!
It would be interesting to understand why that pattern exists, to the extent it does. Maybe women gain confidence and a sense of independence as they age, while men begin with a lot of (false or unearned) confidence early on but get more humble over time?
Most women begin as bottoms, a result heavily influenced by cultural socialization. With experience, many at least experiment with the “switch” role, and some evolve as tops. The decades of the 20s, 30’, and later roughly correspond to the time it takes to find out who you are and which “side of the paddle” you belong. Maturity and confidence often increase with age, while the effects of earlier coercive socialization can weaken for both men and women. This socialization effect is not just on women. Think about how long it took you to admit and become comfortable with the reality that you wanted and needed female authority imposed on you. To get to that point, you had to overcome the enormous influence of growing up in a strong patriarchal culture. That’s not easy for women or men.
DeleteAlan
"Think about how long it took you to admit and become comfortable with the reality that you wanted and needed female authority imposed on you." That path may be common to many, but it's not quite true to mine. I went from basically never having thought about it one way or another to discovering adult spanking, then discovery DD shortly thereafter, to advocating to my wife what we should try a DD relationship. The whole process took a few weeks at most. What I think has taken longer for me to understand is the extent to which some of my early inclinations--such as having a thing for older women--were rooted in having a thing for authority. Speaking only for myself, I don't think the process involved much of overcoming patriarchal cultural biases. The only area that I see that playing a major role in was my resistance and, frankly, paranoia about being "outed" as being in this lifestyle. Becoming more open to the possibility of others knowing *did* involve overcoming concerns about societal disapproval, but I don't think such disapproval played much of a role in the timing of my discovery of DD or how it has developed over time.
DeleteI do think those gender-oriented societal admonitions have played some role in Anne's willingness, or lack thereof, to be open about her status. But, it wasn't really about having to overcome any concerns about society's views directed at her. Rather, she's told me that she was reluctant to take on a visibly dominant role at home or to let our kids discover our DD relationship, because she was afraid it might cause them to lose respect for me. She was, however, concerned about how the lifestyle might affect her career if it became known though, in fairness, she was in one of the few careers where "more turpitude" is still a firing offense.
My wife and I also tried to keep our DD from our kids and from work colleagues. When empty nesting was followed a few years later by retirement, her use of DD exploded -- followed by her more public expressions of her authority. She took on her new "vocation" of training her husband with gusto! And our marriage improved accordingly.
DeleteKOJ
KOJ, I expected that Anne's use of DD would explode after we became empty nesters, but it really didn't . Maybe because our kids went to college close by and could be counted on drop in at least weekly. They also came home often during the holidays, and it seems like students today seldom go a month without a multi-day break from school. As a result, empty-nesting was never the binary event I thought it would be, with our lives suddenly changing definitively. I also continued to travel a lot for work, which I think think kept us from getting into any consistent rhythm. The more important transition in terms of her taking on her new vocation with gusto was her retirement and, to a lesser extent, mine.
DeleteI am not sure what causes the pattern of women often being "bottoms in their twenties, switches in their thirties, and tops in their forties," but I do think that is often true. And I don't think it is just a DD thing, but rather it affects all ways that women interact with the world around them.
DeleteRegarding Dan's "empty-nesting was never the binary event I thought it would be," I can certainly affirm that in our case. In fact, since we officially became "empty nesters" 2 1/2 years ago, there hasn't been that much time where we didn't have one kid or another home, most recently with one of the kids living here since September.
-ZM
"And I don't think it is just a DD thing, but rather it affects all ways that women interact with the world around them."
DeleteThat's a really great observation. And, I again wonder if it's kind of the opposite sequence for men. We start off with testosterone to spare and things to prove vis-a-vis other men. In our 30s and 40s that mellows a bit and, as we get more power and authority in the rest of our life we also develop a tendency to want to balance that out by opening up to a more "bottom" orientation. I know that is super generalized, but I think there is some truth in it for many of us.
This idea is consistent with many of the postings over the year on this blog. I want to think about it some. It would be ironic ( and important theoretically) if men and women had to reach their 40s or so to share a common life stage, although evolutionary pair bonding can be unstable in prime childbearing ages
DeleteAlan
Alan
Alan, you're right, it would be ironic, and maybe even a little depressing. Though, I'm not entirely surprised. I'm not a big supporter of retrospective theories that attribute every human action or tendency to evolutionary biology, but I do think that during the child-bearing years, men and women respectively have very different biological strategies for promoting the number and probably survival of progeny, and those differing strategies probably manifest in all sorts of different, and possibly opposing, behaviors. Even more ironically, it's probably in our late 30s and early 40s that evolutionary imperatives probably stop driving our behavior as much, because we aren't as fertile then, so our body-minds kind of throw their hands up and say "Who cares? Do whatever the hell you want."
DeleteAway for the weekend, I am joining the discussion a bit late. As you know, we believe in and most often handle discipline at the time of the offense. I realize everyone cannot accomplish this do life, work, kids, etc. When punishment here is delayed it is most likely the discovery that is delayed. Something I may have done or forgotten to do months ago is now discovered, I get spanked for it at that point. Even short time periods, as you related to not cleaning the rice cooker, there are times when I neglect to turn off the coffee maker and the last quarter of an inch of coffee is now burned and stuck to the bottom of the craft. She finds it later, calls me saying 'look what you did again, we have talked about this before, now go bring me a paddle and bend over. After a good paddling, I find myself cleaning the mess with a very red and sore ass.
ReplyDelete"Something I may have done or forgotten to do months ago is now discovered, I get spanked for it at that point." Do you feel like there is still a benefit to one or both of you if it's been months?
DeleteSomething that surprised me about the rice maker, and apparently your coffee maker, was no automatic shut-off. Seems like a major safety design flaw.
Honestly, yes. Even though the effect of my infraction is no longer an issue, if I have disobeyed her or neglected a chore which should have been completed, it warrants punishment. This is especially true if it is something she has punished me before. Repeating the same offense always gets me spanked.
DeleteWhile immediate consequences are always best, I agree that later consequences can still be effective -- especially when the spanking quickly follows the wife's discovery of the misbehavior. In that sense, the consequence IS immediate!
DeleteMy wife's scolding had three sections as the hairbrush fell: what I did wrong; the character trait that allowed the behavior (lazy, forgetful, impatient, selfish, etc.); and how the behavior was going to improve going forward. By focusing on the future during the last third of the spanking (when I was brought to a state of surrender), the punishment was effective even if there was a time lapse between the misbehavior and the consequences.
KOJ
Yes, KOJ, I agree with your statements. She puts more emphasis on improving for the future and not committing the same offense again. Hence, she will spank then ask if I have learned the lesson. I always say yes ma'am, but she says 'let's be sure' and spanks more.
Delete"I agree that later consequences can still be effective -- especially when the spanking quickly follows the wife's discovery of the misbehavior. In that sense, the consequence IS immediate!"
DeleteI had not thought of "immediate" in that sense, but you're clearly right.
I agree that if the punishment is for something that was just discovered, it can still seem current and fresh, even if the underlying incident was a ways back. This is especially true the reason it wasn't discovered was because you were trying to keep it covered up, in which case the cover-up is recent and ongoing, regardless of when the original thing being covered up happened.
Delete-ZM
We had an interesting relationship with guilt. Since she did not require self-reporting of things that happened outside her presence (like more than two drinks), I did not feel guilty about them. However, my indiscretions were all within the bounds of our marriage vows and the Ten Commandments, or I would have felt guilty.
DeleteBut ... if she interrogated me about my behavior outside of her presence (which was rare), I felt bound to answer truthfully, and she then had the option to punish me, since the behavior did break one of her rules. If she chose to punish me, I suddenly felt guilty about the behavior! If she chose not to, I didn't feel guilty! In some ways my guilt was more about whether I disappointed her than the behavior itself.
KOJ
That is interesting that your guilt is so closely tied to your wife's feelings about a particular behavior. I have to admit, I have very little of that dynamic in play. I tend to be very harsh on myself for certain behavioral failings, and my feelings of guilt and need for some kind of accountability depend very little on what anyone else may think about it.
Delete"However, my indiscretions were all within the bounds of our marriage vows and the Ten Commandments . . ." For some reason, something about your comment made me think about a great scene in the movie Paint Your Wagon in which Lee Marvin's character unashamedly recounts the ways in which he's broken virtually every commandment. Made me chuckle remembering it.
Honestly , sometimes I feel great relief if a spanking wasn’t given. Other times guilt consumes me. The spanking hurts like hell but feel better when it’s over. She says she does too. Saturday I said something and was very mad. I walked away. Later I said would a paddling make things better ? I wasn’t thrilled with the idea but wanted peace. She said no as I didn’t say anything intentionally to upset her. Tonite at 9:00 she said she has something she wants to “ discuss “ with me. I don’t know what it is but I’m getting nervous 😟. JR
ReplyDeleteGood luck!
DeleteWell, I guess we’ve now proved that Covid can be transmitted via a blog ! Clever virus. TG
ReplyDeleteSorry! I hope yours isn't too bad. Mine sucked for the first two or three days, but I recovered way faster than when I got it last year.
DeleteInteresting topics Dan, my wife was definitely not a bottom in her twenties or a switch in her thirties. As a matter of fact, she was paddled by her Mother while younger and now loathes what she went through. Ironically, I was quite different and punished thoroughly throughout my childhood to my early teen years. I thought that based on her experiences, DD was off the books for us based on her experiences. She does have some PTSD so to speak. Somehow this has no affect on our DD. I brought this up to her saying if she was uncomfortable with her spanking me; we could stop immediately. Interestingly, the opposite occurred and she saw improvement in my attitude and actions after a severe thrashing. She does see benefits to our relationship after a good spanking. Unlike some issue above, I don’t forget the little things. I don’t forget to turn off the coffee maker, the rice cooker, take out the garbage, wash the cars, etc. I want punishment for the larger aspects of DD. I mean how many times can you forget to turn off the coffee maker and there’s no way I could be punished for my attitude a month later. I need immediate correction/punishment. Finally, it never took me long to admit I needed female authority in my life. I’ve had it throughout my entire life. From my Mother, Grandmothers, Aunt, multiple teachers, best friends Mothers. All of these women, have been strong intelligent no nonsense women. They have all put me in my place at different times of my life. They taught me how to be a man. They taught me love, respect, kindness, compassion and fortitude. Without these women, my life would be much
ReplyDeletedifferent and not for the better. It’s quite amazing how all of us ended here but with different perspectives on DD.
T
"It’s quite amazing how all of us ended here but with different perspectives on DD." And, it's also amazing how we can get to the same place from such different paths. You said you've had strong female authority around you for your entire life. I really didn't, other than a few friends' mothers and teachers.
DeleteFor some reason, it doesn't surprise me that your wife has PTSD about being paddled when she was a kid but has no problem doing it to you. Anne's mother spanked pretty liberally when she was a kid (though I think her siblings got it more than she did), but she's never had the slightest problem delivering a hard paddling to me.
Congrats on not forgetting the little things. I go in phases. Sometimes I'm fairly on top of things. Other times, not so much.
I also am grateful for strong yet caring female authority throughout my life. I am sure it is a main reason why I accepted and responded to DD.
DeleteKOJ
In regard to self-reporting and delayed punishment: There were occasions when my wife noticed my "restlessness" and would say something like, "You're acting like you feel guilty about something. Is there anything you need to tell me?" Or even: "Go get the hairbrush and we'll figure out what it is."
ReplyDeleteVery effective, indeed.
KOJ
KOJ said: “There were occasions when my wife noticed my "restlessness" and would say something like, "You're acting like you feel guilty about something. Is there anything you need to tell me?”
DeleteThere is nothing that can make me feel more like a naughty little boy about to be punished than her making eye contact and saying something like: “Is there anything else you need to tell me”? or “Is there something else you want to tell me”
It’s a technique she used to do more often but still does it occasionally. It just stops me cold if I am trying to be evasive, and it is probably more effective than a direct interrogation about something specific because it just drags out anything I am avoiding
Alan
My wife has started to do this a little bit, asking me whether there is anything I need to report in my journal.
DeleteOur situation is probably a little bit different to some couples here, given that I am in the military, meaning that we have to be a little bit practical. When I am away on tours of duty, I am obviously around some very prominent guard rails more or less all the time, meaning there isn't such a big need for my wife's restraining hand. If she were with me during tours of duty, she would administer discipline, but she is realistic and accepts the situation.
ReplyDeleteHowever, she doesn't tend to let things go unpunished when I am at home. She seems to have an extremely good memory for things I am to be punished for! I struggle to think of times when she has let something slide that she was aware of. I am relieved about this, as I never find myself feeling guilt for unpunished offences that were known to her.
J
"When I am away on tours of duty, I am obviously around some very prominent guard rails more or less all the time, meaning there isn't such a big need for my wife's restraining hand."
DeleteThat's kind of a fascinating dynamic. There have been many times that I've thought about the military model's application to DD and FLR relationships, particularly the very hierarchical nature of relationships that after your first promotion inevitably creates a situation in which you are subordinate to some and a leader to others. It's so much less binary than being a "top" versus a "bottom." Also, the fact that you have to comply with orders even if you totally disagree with them.
But, I hadn't really thought about how the existence of built in guardrails might affect people who are in the military or have those backgrounds. I imagine it could vary a lot by individual. My dad is a former Marine and his tenure there seems to have reinforced his pre-existing hatred for authority. I'm sure it could work exactly the opposite for others.
“What I’m really interested in, however, is the point of view from the other end of the paddle. Are there times that you, the disciplined husbands, ever feel like an offense or series of offenses really should be addressed even if a substantial period of time has passed?”
ReplyDeleteDan, I have been feeling like that for months. As previously mentioned, my wife and I lost the DD/ FLR dynamic for months because I have had some serious health issues, so my wife has been handling me with kid gloves. I have really missed the feeling of being firmly under her thumb I had at the height of our FLR. I have also felt guilty because when it comes to housework, I am naturally lazy, so I have taken advantage of not being held to account for neglecting chores. I feel especially bad when she just does some housework herself instead of making me do it with a freshly reddened bum. She has also been letting me get away with displays of bad attitude when I feel down, and that makes me feel even worse. I have missed those occasional “attitude adjustments”.
But maybe things are turning around. When I went to the drugstore a couple of weeks ago to get some toiletries for a trip, I saw a beautiful wooden bath brush, and when I imagined my wife spanking me with it, I had to buy it. I didn’t know whether she would ever use it, but I absolutely had to have it, if only to feel that she might use it. Before I went on my trip, I gave her the bath brush, together with a letter explaining how rudderless I have been feeling since she stopped disciplining me and demanding obedience. The next morning she used the bath brush to spank me. It was a short spanking—just to remind me that she is still the boss, she said—but it hurt terribly. I don’t know whether that brush is harsher than her hairbrush or paddle or whether my bum has become more tender from not being spanked for so long. In the moment, I almost regretted buying it, but it thrills me to see it hanging in the bathroom now that I have felt its bite.
The day after that spanking, I flew out west by myself to visit a couple of my sisters, and I just got back last night, so I am not yet sure whether that spanking was a one-off or the beginning of a renewed FLR. But something significant happened at my sister’s place. We reminisced about our childhood, and the topic of spanking came up, i.e. the fact that my brother and I got spanked and my sisters didn’t. Well, one thing led to another, and I ended up outing myself as a spanked husband to my sister! I felt embarrassed, but not terribly so. It felt kind of liberating, to be honest. My sister told me that it wasn’t all that surprising because it has always been clear to everyone that my wife is the boss at our house.
GH
"I don’t know whether that brush is harsher than her hairbrush or paddle or whether my bum has become more tender from not being spanked for so long." It could be both. The bath brush is always a pretty harsh implement. (It also happens to be my wife's favorite.) But, a spanking hurts me WAY more if it's been several weeks or a few months since the last one.
Delete"We reminisced about our childhood, and the topic of spanking came up, i.e. the fact that my brother and I got spanked and my sisters didn’t. Well, one thing led to another, and I ended up outing myself as a spanked husband to my sister! I felt embarrassed, but not terribly so. It felt kind of liberating, to be honest."
Wow! That's a great development. I'm glad it felt liberating.
Do you think Anne favours the bath brush because she knows it hurts more? I’m thinking that it’s a simple matter of physics. My wife probably didn’t hit me any harder than she would with the hairbrush or the paddle, but the long handle must increase the velocity versus the hairbrush, and the smaller surface area versus the paddle wouldn’t disperse the energy of impact as much.
DeleteIt’s liberating not to hide something that feels like an aspect of one’s identity, and that’s how being subordinate to my wife feels to me. But I don’t yet know what the long term ramifications will be. I thought about asking my sister to promise not to tell anyone else, but I suspect that would be pointless. My sisters talk a lot to one another, so I suspect I have been outed to all of them. I haven’t yet told my wife that I have outed myself (and also her), but it is probably inevitable that someone will tell her if I don’t. So I am wondering what effect it will have on her to know that our secret is no longer a secret within my extended family.
GH
I think it's a combination of (a) it hurts more than the hair brush; (b) the long handle increases the velocity but can still be used OTK; and (c) even with the longer handle it's still easy to use.
DeleteSeveral years ago, I told one of my best friends (a woman who is also a friend of Anne's, but the primary arrangement was through me) about our DD without asking Anne. I wondered how Anne would react when I told her I'd done it. She was surprised but not upset. I suspect most wives aren't that embarrassed if their status becomes known. After all, they aren't the one getting spanked.
I also found the bathbrush to be extremely painful, and when she sent me to get I knew I was in for a hard spanking. She only went to the more severe implements for repeat transgressions -- like the third time in a month after two lectures/spankings.
DeleteI never had the courage to out myself, but my wife's public scoldings and the one semi-public spanking (heard, not seen) made it clear to me that quite a few knew.
KOJ
There are things I did as far back as pre-college age that would be good reasons for punishment. Time does not diminish anything for me. If the issue was a legitimate reason for punishment then, then it's just as good a justification now. I think that indicates my attraction to spanking is more tied to punishment than discipline. The changing of behavior can be an important result to imbue it with meaning, but simply being held to account is the primary attraction. Punishment for long ago offenses have no practical outcome for me, yet they would be no less powerful.
ReplyDelete“There are things I did as far back as pre-college age that would be good reasons for punishment. Time does not diminish anything for me. If the issue was a legitimate reason for punishment then, then it's just as good a justification now.”
DeleteBrett, my initial reaction was that it would be silly to get spanked now for some misbehaviour from pre-college days. For example, being spanked by my wife for that time I skipped school and didn’t get caught by my parents would feel too contrived to be meaningful. It would be like dredging up memories of misdeeds as a pretext to feed my kink. But the more I think about it, the less silly it seems. I have been undergoing psychotherapy for a few months, and now that I think about it, some of the issues I have discussed with my therapist involve unresolved feelings of regret or guilt for past failures to live up to my highest ideal of myself. For example, I have regrets going back to my teenage years about having behaved selfishly or insensitively in ways which may have hurt people. I have sometimes thought that talk therapy is a bit like Catholic confession, except that the therapist doesn’t impose penance like a priest would. But maybe being punished for long ago failings would have therapeutic value. Okay, this is getting into fantasy territory for me, but the idea of a therapist helping a client to expiate feelings of guilt for past moral failures by paddling him or her to tears doesn’t seem totally crazy. Confession: I have actually fantasized about being spanked by my therapist, and I feel somewhat guilty about that. Sometimes I wonder whether she suspects I have such fantasies, since she knows about my masochism and my craving for discipline from my wife. In a way, psychotherapy is a sort of D/s experience because it is like being spiritually naked in the presence of someone who is fully clothed. How could I stop myself from fantasizing about therapeutic spankings from my therapist, given that psychological power imbalance? Or from feeling guilty about it?
GH
"In a way, psychotherapy is a sort of D/s experience because it is like being spiritually naked in the presence of someone who is fully clothed."
DeleteThat's a very interesting analogy. I have never seen a psychotherapist, but last year I was seeing an acupuncturist who was a little "woo woo" in her orientation and spent part of each session talking through not just physical issues but also emotional things that were going on. I found myself reacting very similarly to how I sometimes react to DD authority -- resenting the intrusion while it was happening but later being happy to have someone forcing me to address things I didn't want to address. And, her form of acupuncture actually would produce moments of pain that were very brief but also intense, almost like an electrical shock. So, it had a "the pain will help you get better" aspect to it.
"I think that indicates my attraction to spanking is more tied to punishment than discipline. The changing of behavior can be an important result to imbue it with meaning, but simply being held to account is the primary attraction."
DeleteFor me, I think the two are fairly closely balanced, though being held to account is probably somewhat more at the center. I don't think that was the case when we first started. When I discovered the DWC, I was going through a period in which I felt like my behavior really needed some changes, and a lot of my focus really was on empowering her to address some chronic problems and also the chronic power imbalance in our relationship. Being held to account definitely addressed both those issues, but I did see the goal as changing the behavior which would in turn change those negative dynamics. Over time, the being held accountable became more of an independent goal in its own right.
GH writes: Sometimes I wonder whether she suspects I have such fantasies since she knows about my masochism and my craving for discipline from my wife.”
DeleteIn a Freudian framework what you are experiencing might be “transference” It is actually a very positive sign and one you should definitely discuss it with your therapist. With that open between you, it might be possible to go deeper into your feelings and uncover some of their roots. Whatever you tell her, she will have heard it all before if she is at all experienced
Alan
GH: "Brett, my initial reaction was that it would be silly to get spanked now for some misbehaviour from pre-college days. For example, being spanked by my wife for that time I skipped school and didn’t get caught by my parents would feel too contrived to be meaningful. It would be like dredging up memories of misdeeds as a pretext to feed my kink."
DeleteI can see that. I would not want it to feel contrived. The offense needs to be something I am ashamed of, and is not too trivial. The circumstances would also have to be relevant to an adult. Before a certain age, I can't feel much guilt now about what I did as a kid understandably immature. However, my fetish really sprang to life from adolescent experiences, so the connection to that phase of life adds a lot to the draw of redemption for long ago misbehavior.
"In a way, psychotherapy is a sort of D/s experience because it is like being spiritually naked in the presence of someone who is fully clothed. How could I stop myself from fantasizing about therapeutic spankings from my therapist, given that psychological power imbalance? Or from feeling guilty about it?"
I haven't seen a therapist, but this has also been a powerful fantasy for me. The idea of being uncompromisingly open with a trained professional is appealing. Her knowledge and standing makes for a very compelling authority figure. As long as you don't threaten the doctor-patient relationship, I think it is her business to know what you're feeling, and to handle it in a professional manner.
Dan: "When I discovered the DWC, I was going through a period in which I felt like my behavior really needed some changes, and a lot of my focus really was on empowering her to address some chronic problems and also the chronic power imbalance in our relationship."
DeleteWhat seems to be the attraction for me is that behavior modification is the evidence that punishment has had a tangible impact. She has imposed discipline on me. That adds to the feelings of humility for me, and is a demonstration of her power in the context of a parental-like authority. At least in fantasy, I don't think of the discipline in terms of self-improvement but, in reality, that could be a side benefit.
I think accountability and behavior modification were always intermeshed in our marriage. Accountability through punishment was the way to behavior change. I don't quite understand one without the other in domestic discipline. What is the point of accountability if it does not improve behavior? That would have frustrated my wife immensely.
DeleteCertainly behavior change can occur without punishment, but then it wouldn't be domestic discipline.
Maybe I am seeing it too simplistically, but I don't get one without the other in DD.
KOJ
I just started seeing a therapist to deal with my grief, and I knew I wanted to talk about our DD, so I did some research and found Kink Aware Professionals, who have therapists in many places across the country. I doubt they would actually spank a client, but at least you can talk about it without being judged.
DeleteKOJ
KOJ
DeleteThat is very good advice for anyone seeking a therapist. I might add that more and more therapists today are probably "kink aware" , particularly those, say 45 and under. I also wouldn't automatically seek a female therapist although most of them can be very good. It can be harder talking to a male about you spanking desires but there is also a gender comity there that can offer insights
Alan
"What is the point of accountability if it does not improve behavior? That would have frustrated my wife immensely."
DeleteI think it probably comes back to Alan's observation that there is one thing that may drive DD regardless of whether behavior gets modified - retribution. I can see it also being a factor when behavior does change for the better but still happens periodically. If it happens to be something that really annoys the wife, I suspect retribution is lurking in her motive for spanking even if she still hopes the spanking will improve the behavior.
“I think it probably comes back to Alan's observation that there is one thing that may drive DD regardless of whether behavior gets modified - retribution. I can see it also being a factor when behavior does change for the better but still happens periodically. If it happens to be something that really annoys the wife, I suspect retribution is lurking in her motive for spanking even if she still hopes the spanking will improve the behavior.”
DeleteDan, I think you and Alan are onto something! I have never thought of DD as retribution, but that makes perfect sense to me now. I have said I have a feeling that giving spankings serves some purpose for my wife that isn’t purely disciplinary, I.e. not about “educating me” or managing my behaviour. She says it is satisfying to be able to punish me, but she is vague about the nature of that satisfaction. Because I used to keep a FLR journal that was open to her, she knows a great deal about my feelings when it comes to DD, but I know little about hers. That contributes to the power imbalance between us. I often imagine my wife getting sexual satisfaction from spanking me, but she says the satisfaction isn’t sexual. Beyond that I am in the dark. How is it satisfying to her? Maybe there is an element of retribution. She would probably deny that because retribution is generally seen in a negative light nowadays. “Discipline” is supposed to be for the benefit of person disciplined in contemporary educational/parenting theory, so retribution is seen as a bad (selfish and attavistic) reason to mete out discipline. But that might explain why my wife often forgets to carry out spanking threats if she doesn’t do it while she is still feeling angry or annoyed about something I have done. Maybe the satisfaction she gets from spanking and scolding me is retributive, so she needs to do it while her anger is fresh to get that satisfaction. And if wife led DD is considered in the light of retribution, the retribution could go beyond personal retribution of a wife against a husband who has annoyed her. Almost every woman I know, of my age at least, seems to have some complaint about experiences of gender based discrimination, having grown up in a patriarchal society. Therefore, I think it is possible to imagine that when a wife spanks her husband, there could be a satisfying element of female retribution against patriarchy. Or maybe I just think too much. I guess I will never know because when it comes to DD, I am emotionally naked and my wife is emotionally clothed. Do any of you other guys ever feel that way?
GH
KOJ, I hope therapy helps you to deal with your grief. I sought therapy to help me to deal with various emotional issues, the main one being anxiety. But it is also an attempt to try to understand myself, and one of the things I feel a need to understand is directly related to the reason I am here: my obsession with FLR and DD. Thus, I knew at the outset that I would be talking about DD with the therapist. Alan, you mention that you would prefer to have a female therapist rather than a male. That’s how I felt. Embarrassing as it is to talk about my kinks with a female therapist, I felt that I would be even more inhibited talking to a man. Maybe because, being sexually wired the way I am, I can’t help feeling a D/s vibe in the therapist/client relationship, so I would be less comfortable relating to another man that way. My therapist is definitely “kink aware”, probably more than I am because she has undoubtedly heard it all. She is nonjudgmental about my kinks, but she made it clear at the outset that she doesn’t consider herself to be “kink friendly” in an absolute sense, because she knows from therapeutic experience that sadomasochistic kinks can be harmful for some people in some circumstances.
DeleteBy the way, I have noticed that some professional spankers offering their services on the Internet advertise that one type of service they offer is “spanking therapy” as a treatment for anxiety, depression, or addiction. I wonder how seriously one can take spanking as a form of psychotherapy? I’m pretty sure that the code of ethics governing registered psychotherapists would not permit a real therapist from engaging in such an unconventional and sexually charged form of “therapy”.
GH
"Because I used to keep a FLR journal that was open to her, she knows a great deal about my feelings when it comes to DD, but I know little about hers."
DeletePerhaps surprisingly, given how long we've been doing DD, that is our pattern as well. She has both my journal and this blog as resources to understand my feelings about DD, her exercise of power and authority, etc. But, I can't say I have a lot of insight into her motivations. She'll answer honestly if I ask a specific question, but it definitely requires me probing.
That is mostly my experience too. She is candid and engaged when we talk about spanking and discipline, but usually doesn't take the conversation into her thoughts about it. But based on my experience about it, woman would rather do it than talk about it or even read about it. That may be why more woman don't comment on this blog.
DeleteAlan
GH wrote: I have noticed that some professional spankers offering their services on the Internet advertise that one type of service they offer is “spanking therapy” as a treatment for anxiety, depression, or addiction. I wonder how seriously one can take spanking as a form of psychotherapy?”
DeleteAs far as I know, spanking therapy isn’t sanctioned by any professional group. Various anecdotal reports have been floating around the internet claiming the therapeutic benefits of spanking but little or no real documentation. Professionals who claim they practice spanking therapy may be sincere in their beliefs. But there is no scientific data that backs the claim up. However, I will add that in an intimate personal relationship, practicing DD “ may be “ therapeutic in itself, in that relationship But I am dubious that professionals can duplicate that.
Alan
KOJ: "What is the point of accountability if it does not improve behavior? That would have frustrated my wife immensely."
DeleteIt depends on what one wants out of DD. In real life, if my wife has a problem with something, she verbalizes it, and I change as best as I can because I want to make life better for her, and I may learn from her words that she is right. A spanking, as exciting as that may be if she was into that, is not needed to change behavior. Accountability, for its own sake, is a feature of my attraction to DD. If my wife was a disciplinarian, that could satisfy my craving, which requires an actual offense to be punished. Held accountable is the key. If my behavior also changed for the better, it could be seen as a consequence of the punishment, and appearances like that can add to the feeling I would get from the experience. I grew up knowing what non-consensual punishment is like, but DD is only a reflection of that dynamic. My wife is not in control unless I allow her that control. While self-improvement is a laudable goal, it's not my motivation with regard to DD.
GH: "I often imagine my wife getting sexual satisfaction from spanking me, but she says the satisfaction isn’t sexual. Beyond that I am in the dark. How is it satisfying to her? Maybe there is an element of retribution. She would probably deny that because retribution is generally seen in a negative light nowadays. “Discipline” is supposed to be for the benefit of person disciplined in contemporary educational/parenting theory, so retribution is seen as a bad (selfish and attavistic) reason to mete out discipline."
DeleteI may be in the minority here, but my attraction to accountability is not really based on a wife's thirst for retribution. I think of discipline in terms of a parental dynamic, and a good parent doesn't punish as a form of vengeance. The ideal disciplinarian for me would be attracted to the idea of accountability and enjoys the emotional difficulties involved in my experience of spanking. The dynamic is exciting to her, though the exact nature of that enthusiasm may not be explicitly sexual. She may have good reason to want to see justice served, but it's all part of the mutually satisfying circumstances. At it's core, it is not about bad feelings and getting even for something. Yes, it is punishment, but a spanking is our fetish, and we engage in it because we want it in our lives. If she doesn't share my enjoyment of it on some relatable level, I don't want her involvement.
Brett, I don’t know whether you will see this, as people have moved on to the next blog entry now. Like you, I also think of discipline “in terms of a parental dynamic.” But there is an inescapable difference between spousal discipline and parental discipline: you were actually a child when your parents spanked you, but you are an adult being treated like a child if your wife spanks you. Thus, there is an additional layer of embarrassment in spousal spanking. I am trying to get my head around your distinction between “accountability” and “behaviour modification”. If there is a parental dynamic, would the goal of spanking not be both accountability (imposing a consequence for a misdeed) and behaviour modification (deterring repetition of such misdeeds)? If punishment doesn’t modify behaviour in some positive way, would it not be pointlessly cruel? And in that case, what would motivate the disciplinarian if not pure emotion?
DeleteI’m curious about your experience of parental discipline and how it compares to mine. Like you, I feel that my spanking fetish is somehow grounded in my my childhood experience of corporal punishment. I think my parents stopped spanking me in my final year of elementary school. Once I entered high school, they must have figured I was too old for spanking. However, I continued to live in fear of the possibility of being spanked because nobody ever formally said that spanking was off the table. That fear was powerful because I imagine the shame and embarrassment I felt when I was spanked as a child would have been off the chart when I was an adolescent. Maybe I have misunderstood, but I have the impression that you continued to be spanked through adolescence. Is that right? Sorry if that question is too nosey, but I am trying to imagine how that would have felt and how it would have affected me.
GH
--al wrote: “I wore a jock strap, covering the genitals but exposing the buns, as I do with her sister).” ( when being spanked in front of a witness)
ReplyDeleteThis is exactly my experience, and it is something I have been aware of back to my GF, who didn’t actually spank me in front of her friend. But she did talk about it and was concerned about her friend seeing my genitals although she never said exactly why exposing my bum bare was OK but worrying about the genitals was an issue.
My wife just told me in advance to wear a jock under my pants and she never said why. I actually was in favor of that so there was no discussion about it. But there is no jock used with private spanking and I doubt that she would allow that.
I assume the jock with a witness is to remove explicit sexuality from the experience and with my former GF, I did usually have an erection at some point, so that would be embarrassing. I wish Danielle or one of our former woman commentators were still around. I remember her specifically talking about spanking Wayne in front of a girlfriend and I don’t remember her mentioning requiring him to wear anything special. As I am writing I remember my former GF talking about putting me over her lap in a way my cock would not be visible, so something was going on there
Alan
I know this is probably a bit weird, but I feel that having my bottom bared for spanking is just as sexual as genital exposure. Maybe that’s because I felt ashamed of getting it “on the bare bum” with sisters as witnesses, and blabber mouths, at an early age, and for some reason I eventually eroticized the shame of “bare bum spankings.” At that early age I wasn’t as conscious of genital exposure. I also have an irrational feeling that having my pants pulled down far enough to bare just the bottom is more shaming than complete nudity. I guess the reason is that baring just the bottom focuses attention totally on the part of the body involved in spanking. I suppose there is something infantilizing about having just my bottom bared when my wife spanks me. I know some wives order their husbands to strip completely for spankings. My wife has never done that, but I feel that would be less shaming because it would feel more adult. I’m not sure, but I think I would feel the same way in the unlikely event that my wife spanked me in front of a witness. I can see that a wife making her husband wear a jock strap for a spanking in front of another woman might do it for the sake of sexual modesty, for both the spankee and the witness, but that could also be vaguely emasculating, couldn’t it? Or not. Maybe that’s just me.
DeleteGH
I could be completely wrong about this, but I suspect that ordering him to wear a jock, or pulling underwear up to expose the butt instead of just taking them off, has more to do with a wife asserting a certain ownership over her husband vis-a-vis the witness/surrogate spanker and about preventing herself from getting jealous. In other words, it is about de-sexualizing the experience, but for the wife and the witness/spanker, not for the husband.
DeleteThis probably is because I didn't go in for organized sports as a kid, but I've always thought a jock strap is an inherently awkward, semi-embarrassing piece of clothing. I think it would be *more* embarrassing for me to wear one in front of a woman than to simply be naked.
Go through a light scrimmage without pads and see how fast you rush off to your local athletic supply store
DeleteAlan
GH said: "I feel that having my bottom bared for spanking is just as sexual as genital exposure."
DeleteI have to disagree with you ( "Just as sexual")-it's actually more sexual having your bum bared for a spanking
Alan
"Go through a light scrimmage without pads and see how fast you rush off to your local athletic supply store." Possibly, though I've done a lot of individual athletic and recreational stuff that can expose that area to a lot of force--motocross, horses, martial arts--and I can definitely see how a cup on combination with a jock can prevent some damage, but I haven't had experiences where the jock alone would have helped. I do vividly recall coming down hard on the gas tank at the end of a motorcycle jump and really, really wishing I'd had a cup.
DeleteMaybe it's a rabbit's foot, but I never saw anyone suit up without one.
DeleteBut while on the subject, I have noticed some gay spanking sites show men dressed in jocks. (Maybe a lot of them do so, but I don't see that many) I guess some parts of gay culture incorporate male masculine scenes, so maybe that's what it is all about
But my wife has told me two contradictory things when I had one on . One was simply " that looks uncomfortable to wear," But she has also told me my "ass looks sexy" in one. So I suppose a jock in sexual play is the equivalent of a woman in 4-inch heels.
Alan
“I have to disagree with you ( "Just as sexual")-it's actually more sexual having your bum bared for a spanking”.
DeleteI have no argument with you there, Alan. For me it is more sexual…and more shaming. But I thought I might be weird that way.
I remember that we had to wear jock straps over our underwear in high school gym class. I always wondered what purpose a jock strap without a cup served. In a sport like hockey, a jock strap with a cup is essential, but a jock strap without a cup for track and field made no sense to me. Alan, I think you are right that wearing a jock strap without underwear can be sexy, almost like a form of male lingerie. I think the real equivalent for women may be the garter belt. In fact, it feels kind of sexy to me to wear a jock strap without underwear because it feels like the bottom is framed by the strap around your waist and the straps just under your bum. Dan, I also like your idea that the wife may be motivated by possessiveness to hide her husband’s genitals when baring his bottom for a spanking in front of another woman. That’s like a reversal of patriarchal possessiveness, which I find kind of hot.
DeleteGH
Alan, I probably have an overactive imagination, but I imagine that in a gay BDSM context, wearing a jock strap could be an expression of the bottom’s submissiveness to the top. The jock strap could perhaps be seen as a symbolic form of bondage.
DeleteGH
I don't know, but you could be right. Maybe one of our gay or bisexual readers will fill us in on that. There is no doubt that the back of a jock outlines ( frames) the target nicely, so maybe that has something to do with it. We haven't talked on the blog much about male lingerie, but to the extent we have, it has been men put into panties for a spanking that has come up most often, so this is sort of terra incognita
DeleteAlan
After I was taken upstairs and spanked at a party, I feared that she might actually spank me in front of others so I started wearing a jock trap under my briefs when we went out! I couldn't abide the mortification of bare genitals in front of a crowd.
ReplyDeleteWhen she saw the jock strap and elicited an explanation, she laughed. She said she would never put me on display in front of strangers. Which implied to me that she might do so in front of friends or relatives!!! I never asked for clarification and it never happened. But as she was becoming more and more open about our DD, I wouldn't have put it past her. I would have hated the humiliation, but I admit it would be a method to permanently improve my behavior (as happened with the party spanking curing drinking to excess and obnoxious comments in public).
KOJ
"But as she was becoming more and more open about our DD, I wouldn't have put it past her." I can see that being a very nerve-racking and/or exciting dynamic, being in a relationship with a DD wife who has really taken over and starts escalating things but without much warning as to what form that might take.
DeleteKOJ writes,” After I was taken upstairs and spanked at a party, I feared that she might actually spank me in front of others so…”
DeleteThat fear—that my wife might use the authority conferred on her to do in a large group what she does in private—is both the biggest fantasy and the biggest nightmare I can imagine.
It truly is both a fear and a fantasy that she might take my pants down in a group setting. Deep down, I believe she would do it given the right circumstances. And I wonder what my response would be. The answer to that question really produces a no-win situation no matter what the answer is, I think I would submit to her (which is the fantasy) and take the spanking (which is the fear, (given the embarrassment and other consequences of it actually happening.
Moving beyond the fantasy element of all that, I cannot imagine a more effective way to guarantee the behavior that triggered the spanking would never be repeated. I wonder if that sort of scene played out with Aunt Kays’ old crowd and how it worked out. If there is anyone around that experienced that, please jump in and talk about the experience.
Alan
P.S. I just recalled reading an account from Tomy or perhaps someone else who attended Kay's parties, and the husband,s as I recollec,t were taken to a private room. That would be embarrassing, but not the scope of embarrassment that KOJ was alluding to
DeleteAlan
I suspect my wife would not go beyond perhaps taking me out of an event and to a private room for a spanking. Kind of like KOJ experienced but short of doing it in front of a group. So far, even that hasn't happened. But, that was the point of my comment to KOJ -- once someone is given such wide and deep authority, free of any pre-conditions, there's no way to really know in what direction it might go or how far she might take it. Right now, even taking it to what now seems "the extreme" of delivering a spanking privately but with others we know within hearing range seems unlikely. But, you just never know, do you?
DeleteAlan, the thought of being spanked by my wife in front of or within hearing of witnesses affects me the same way: it is an exciting fantasy, but the thought that she could really do it is frightening. Like you, I think I would probably feel compelled to submit, although the embarrassment would be excruciating. My wife doesn’t yet know that I have outed our DD arrangement to one of my sisters. I’m nervous about telling her, but I think she should hear about from me rather than someone else. I wonder whether my outing our DD could make it more likely that my wife could do something like KOJ’s wife did. Probably not, but as Dan said, who knows?
DeleteGH
I don't know if telling her will make her more likely to use her authority but I think you should find an opportunity to tell her , perhaps in the flow of conversation rather than make too big a things about it. My guess is she will be proud of you rather than angry with you
DeleteAlan
I think GH that you need to tell her post haste, not good if there is a comment to her from one of your sisters. Second, I suspect that you need to be on your best behaviour when your sisters are around... I think that you have invited an escalation.
DeleteYes, I will tell her the way you suggest, Alan. I don’t know whether she will be proud of me, but I don’t think she will be too upset. She has previously said she wouldn’t be embarrassed if someone found out because she’s not the one being spanked.
DeleteMark, that’s exactly what I have been thinking.
GH
After I was taken upstairs and spanked at a party, I feared that she might actually spank me in front of others so I started wearing a jock trap under my briefs when we went out! I couldn't abide the mortification of bare genitals in front of a crowd.
ReplyDeleteWhen she saw the jock strap and elicited an explanation, she laughed. She said she would never put me on display in front of strangers. Which implied to me that she might do so in front of friends or relatives!!! I never asked for clarification and it never happened. But as she was becoming more and more open about our DD, I wouldn't have put it past her. I would have hated the humiliation, but I admit it would be a method to permanently improve my behavior (as happened with the party spanking curing drinking to excess and obnoxious comments in public).
KOJ
I guess I never thought about it in terms of me trying to avoid embarrassment. To me, having my pants pulled down for discipline is acutely embarrassing, and the jock didn't matter much.
DeleteBut I have spent lots of time in the shower room in sports, so exposed genitals are no big deal . And I believe most women are not all that interested in the genitals of a male unless romantically or sexually involved in some way. Now move that scenario to a crowd and my feelings about it would probably change
Alan