Hi all. I said last week that I wasn't feeling any inspiration. I managed to develop a suggestion from Donn into a full post, but this week I'm back to a big fat nothing where DD inspiration is concerned.
It may be because we are so out of the habit personally. Unfortunately, Anne’s arm injury, which was supposed to require about four weeks of immobilization, is looking like it might require some more serious intervention. We’ll just have to see how it goes.
Although I cannot personally come up with anything worth talking about this week, I’m happy to provide the forum for continuing anything that was discussed last week. I will note that almost immediately after complaining that I could find many DD art or memes with non-white subjects, I stumbled on this captioned DD meme.
It also relates nicely to a comment from K that I found interesting related to his wife imposing post-orgasm, rubber strap punishment:
J has the attitude, which she made clear when we agreed to this, that punishment should be just that, and should be something I truly seek to avoid. And it sure is! It's rare - maybe once a year? - and reserved for serious, deliberate breaches of our relationship, such as lying. It's never casual or routine, and always hurts like hell, but I see it as basically a preferable alternative to ending or altering the nature of our relationship. This is not the same as the painful, but not nearly as severe, spankings she'll give me with a strap or hairbrush for less serious, more day-to-day offenses, and DEFINITELY not sexy (though the fact that she has the confidence and authority to do that is SUPREMELY sexy to me, just not in the moment).
It's only bearable because I trust that she won't harm me. But it sure feels terrible, beyond anything I'd voluntarily subject myself to or ask for.
I admit to being intrigued by wives who take such a “whatever it takes” approach, even if I personally was so intimidated by our rubber straps that I threw them all away. I’m very confident I would never suggest something like that on my own.
But, while the topic interests me, we did a “whatever it takes" topic less than six months ago. I don’t have anything new to add, but I’m happy to keep the discussion going if others want to weigh on how far their wives are willing to go in making sure serious issues are, in fact, well-punished. Perhaps Alan would be willing to update us on his wife's "back to basics" approach, which sounded like it might also be related to ramping up punishment significant to deal with ongoing problems.
We also had some interesting discussions going about things like:
· whether females acquiring more and power in society is likely to increase or decrease participation in F/m power exchange and domestic discipline relationships;
· early experiences with spankings within our families, including whether siblings were spanked and how they may have influenced our punishment via things like tattling or telling friends about spankings
· origins and initial triggers on spanking interests
Please feel free to continue to weigh in on any of these or, alternatively, take a week off. I hope you have a good week.
We never used rubber implements. I don't think we knew they existed.
ReplyDeleteMy wife and I were partial to household implements rather than spanking implements, though she had no problem purchasing household implements specifically to punish me with. I remember she once sent ne out to get a wider leather belt to spank me with. She replaced our bath brush that wasn't flat-backed with one that was. She bought a new set of larger and thicker wooden spoons. And a cutting board with a handle.
She would get a bit perturbed if she spanked me for something and then I repeated the misbehavior in a short period of time. "Whatever it takes" would definitely kick in. She would go to the bath brush, swing it full force, and give more smacks than she had before wuth a lighter implement. She would say that it was her fault because she had left me off easy after the first misbehavior. This made me feel bad, that she blamed herself for my transgression. That hurt, though not nearly as much as the thrashing I would get for the repeat offense.
KOJ
Under the 'Whatever It Takes' heading, my dominant partner has her ways to ramp up the punishment when she feels it is warranted. For regular infractions, our list has a 3-level prescribed punishment, repeating the offense automatically means the next level is used. At the finish of the prescribed punishment, she always asks if I have learned a lesson or have I learned not to do that again? I always answer Yes Ma'am, and she says, well let's be sure and spanks me more. For more serious offenses, she will spank until she the punishment is sufficient. If she reaches a point where she thinks I will be harmed or cannot take anymore at this time, she will direct me to stay in position as she is not finished yet. Anywhere from a few to as much as 20 minutes later, she will return and spank me longer. Only twice has she returned for a third dose of hard spanking.
ReplyDeleteA waiting period as you describe makes a lot of sense to me. My wife often stops sooner than she'd like, because of what she describes as me "bleeding." But, when I swipe a tissue over the area, there is little or nothing there. It like the skin isn't actually breaking or tearing but, rather, very tiny droplets of blood are forced through the skin. Physically, it clearly isn't anything to worry about.
DeleteRegarding the question of whether or not societal changes will likely affect female participation in F/M situations, I am undecided on that one. We already have a husband-led marriage with F/M DD which is there for checks and balances, so unless society started forcing us to do things a different way, things would be unaffected, regardless of what women were doing in wider society.
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand, I could foresee it affecting new married couples regarding F/M DD relationships in either direction. Either women getting more power could result in more women feeling inclined to have a F/M DD relationship, or it could mean that they feel there is no need, if say there is no balance to restore or checks and balances to maintain.
I wonder if say female empowerment might lead to F/M DD being normalised? Maybe it would result in men complaining about having received it being regarded (by say their peers or the public) as having received their just desserts (assuming that people believed they actually did what their wives spanked them for)? Maybe they will eventually have some legal protection the same way a parent disciplining a child has (in some, not all, jurisdictions today)? All conjecture: I have no idea, this is just speculation.
J
It may be speculation, but it's interesting speculation nonetheless. I like your thoughts about whether female empowerment might lead to normalizing DD. One could argue that it would run counter to a general societal rejection of corporal punishment and with our current focus on egalitarianism. But, let's face it, these days adult men are *not* really seen as needing the protection of those egalitarian principles, and maybe that's fine given that on some level any man who would be subject to corporal punishment would probably be consenting to it on one level or another.
DeleteDan, I think you are right that DD of either gender orientation will never be normalized because of societal rejection of corporal punishment and a focus on egalitarianism. Where I live, adult corporal punishment was abolished in prisons a couple of generations ago because it was considered to be an affront to human dignity. I think most people would probably say that if DD is consensual, it is a kink masquerading as discipline, and if is non consensual, it is abuse which is illegal. Those of us who are into DD know that it really can be disciplinary, even though it is consensual. I’ve read fantasies about non consensual F/M DD, in which an unwilling husband is forced to submit to corporal punishment because he is economically dependent on his wife. But that could only be a fantasy where I live because that would be considered spousal abuse, and the dependent husband would be able to sue for half of the wife’s assets in divorce, just as wives can do when the husband is the abuser.
DeleteGH
"I think most people would probably say that if DD is consensual, it is a kink masquerading as discipline, and if is non-consensual, it is abuse which is illegal."
DeleteYou're right, there probably is a no-win element to talking to those who aren't in DD relationships about discipline vs. kink.
I agree with what you say about adult men not being seen as needing the protection of these egalitarian principles. The part about what you say about adult males being seen to be consenting to it at some level is interesting: with men being on average larger and stronger, many people will see a non-consensual F/M DD relationship as less likely than a non-consensual M/F DD relationship.
DeleteThe perception of male expendability might also affect how F/M DD progresses over time (something I am obviously very used to, being in the armed forces). This still seems to be the case in both patriarchal and modern liberal societies. There is a move towards egalitarianism, but I haven't noticed a significant challenge to male expendability yet, hence why missing women tend to attract more media attention than missing men. This may result in societal indifference towards F/M DD.
I suppose the high-level speculation I have is about whether society will not stop when it becomes egalitarian, but go further and become gynocentric, to the extent that F/M DD becomes socially and legally seen as a necessary part of a marriage, the way many people view the discipline of children and some used to view M/F DD. I admit I am surprised that the film "McLintock!" has not yet been cancelled, since there are two M/F spanking scenes: maybe things will go the other way and films will feature equivalent F/M spanking scenes?
If I truly examine myself, in a hypothetical situation where another man told me he was in an unwilling F/M DD situation, I couldn't 100% truthfully say I would be moved by it for the reasons above (not fully believing that he was a forced participant, male expendability and viewing F/M DD as a reasonable part of marriage). However, as I say, stuff about society "overcompensating" and becoming gynocentric in that way is idle speculation.
J
It's hard to say whether egalitarianism will become the real norm or whether the scales might truly tilt toward something more female dominated. There are so few truly matrilineal societies out there and, indeed, so few throughout history, that it's impossible to do more than speculate. My understanding is, however, that in the few matrilineal societies that are out there, the decision-making norms are pretty egalitarian, i.e. while wealth and family names may pass matrilineally, they aren't really "female dominated" societies.
DeleteYou don't have to go anywhere near as far back as McLintock for M/f spanking scenes. The streaming series Weeds had at least two such scenes, including one with a belt.
I think most people have a sense that adult spanking is on some level consensual and not abuse the way hitting other parts of the body would be. I think many also sense the possible sexual overtones. This is why spanking scenes in movies are not considered by most as depicting a crime, though they may be considered poor relationship behavior.
DeleteIf one were to do a survey with the question, "Does spanking in a marriage for punishment meet the definition of domestic violence," I believe the top answer would not be yes or no but "it depends."
KOJ
I agree that most would still view F/M DD as consensual, almost without regard to the specifics of the situation. This probably is almost entirely due to the bigger size and greater strength that me (at least generally, as a group) have over their female counterparts.
DeleteAs far as the whole movement towards egalitarianism goes, I would say that many times the pendulum doesn't stop at center, but rather moves generally well past it. While I don't know where everything will stop, I can say for sure that things are changing very quickly with the balance of power between males and females, certainly in the United States and generally throughout much or all of the western world.
And since Dan mentioned race, let me just throw this out there. Most younger people, especially females, seemingly would have no problem with "old, white men" being punished by any and every means possible. Frame it in those terms and there would probably be a line of young women wanting to swing the paddle next!
-ZM
"I would say that many times the pendulum doesn't stop at center, but rather moves generally well past it." That's true for sure. You're also certainly correct that older, white men are getting no sympathy on any front these days.
DeleteThe overall shape of society is a very interesting question and I think you have to go waaaayyyy back to understand how we got to where we are today. From the reading I’ve done over the years, my impression is that early hunter gatherer societies were probably more balanced. The men with their greater physical strength did the hunting and the women found the non-meat foods. Some of the early gods were probably developed out of reverence towards the (probably female) ancestors who first discovered how to make food grow where they wanted instead of having to forage for it. However, at some point, maybe five or ten thousand years ago, people began to understand how babies were made. In a community the mothers would always know who their kids were but once they started to understand the man’s role, the men wanted to know who their kids were too. From what I’ve read, I think the entire patriarchal structure of society stems from this. Men had the greater physical strength and therefore the power to enforce their will by making their women exclusive to them and effectively chattels. The dominance of men, reinforced through religion, custom and law has lasted for thousands of years. I think it’s only in the last fifty or so years that we’ve started to see real change. I think overall women trend slightly more intelligent and more stable than men, as evidenced for example by the shift in stats on college degrees awarded. As technology has developed, superior physical strength has become progressively less important, leveling the playing field. We now see more women in positions of power in business and politics. More highly qualified women in fields such as law and medicine. My own opinion is that this trend will continue and within the next century the developed world will become far more matriarchal. Clearly there are some countries that are far behind in this (Afghanistan) and it’s difficult to see any progress there in the foreseeable future. The interesting question is how leaders in societies such as that will cope when so many of the people they have to deal with in the west are women. How this might impact F/m DD, I can’t imagine, it might increase it as women become more dominant or the opposite as their status becomes more ingrained and they feel less need for outward expressions of control. TG
DeleteI'm always a little bit skeptical at speculating about how hunter-gatherer societies interacted, since so much of the anthropology/sociology in that area is based on our observations of a tiny handful of existing hunter-gatherer society. Still, I think everything you laid out in your comment could certainly be true. I read a good book recently called Why We Get Sick: The New Science of Evolutionary Medicine, which did a really interesting job of linking many disease states, physical processes, and social norms to possible evolutionary adaptations. It had some absolutely appalling statistics on how much inter-family homicides go up when there is a child unrelated to the father (step-child, foster child, etc.) in the home. It's like 70x higher! It certainly bears out the theories you recite about the extent to which concerns about raising someone else's child and passing on someone else's genes can affect social structures.
DeleteMy feelings about rubber instruments, and "whatever it takes" as a principle, are mixed and, honestly, not entirely consistent.
ReplyDeleteOn the one hand, I really do get intrigued by stories from folks like K and JR, whose wives seem to have adopted a "whatever it takes" approach involving very severe spankings in certain limited circumstances.
On the other hand, as I said, I purposefully threw away all of our rubber tools because they were "too much."
I think there are a couple of issues at play. First, Anne has always been a very "binary" disciplinarian and really has only two modes -- on and off. When she delivers a spanking, it's really the same severity every time. The only thing that really changes much is the duration, and even that is more about the condition of my butt than the nature of the offense. So, more severe implements, like anything rubber, weren't associated with the kind of escalating or sliding scale approach to discipline that J and Dev seem to have adopted. I think rubber and more severe implements would have more of a rational place for me if they were, in fact, reserved for certain offenses. That would at least give me the opportunity to avoid them.
Second, while I didn't ask permission to throw out the rubber tools, I think Anne was on board with it, because they tended to bring a punishment session to an early halt because of there tendency to cut and break skin. While the immediacy of the pain was awful, arguably in aggregate the rubber tools resulted in an overall less effective session.
Which tools in your wife's arsenal do you think are best for balancing immediate and high pain but keeping visible damage proportionally low? I assume all of them would eventually leave marks if used hard enough, but I assume different instruments have different "pain:visible damage ratios"?
DeleteJ
That's hard to say. The bath brush definitely inflicts a lot of concentrated pain, though it is the tool that causes the "spotting" that makes Anne squeamish. There are some very heavy leather straps from The London Tanners that hurt almost as much as rubber but aren't quite as likely to cut or break the skin. I also highlighted a DWC leather "paddle" I received from Aunt Kay's husband, which hurts like hell when applied vigorously. https://disciplinedhubbies.blogspot.com/2022/11/the-club-meeting-416-tools-instruments.html
DeleteHi Dan,
DeleteI was thinking exactly the same with rubber implements. When my wife uses them, they do hurt (a lot), but overall they almost always result in less punishment because they inevitably cause the spanking to end very early.
The one thing that I think can work with rubber tools, even in our cases where our spouses are reluctant to continue when there are signs of even minor spotting, is to spank as long and hard as usual with other things, and then at the very end drag out the rubber tools to end things with a painful bang. This also can help overpower any numbness that has set in.
From my experience, I think that the leather strap is probably the most able to inflict about the most short term burn and sting and long term soreness without causing bleeding. It will leave the bottom very, very red though, so I guess that wouldn't help much with J's "visible damage." As a side note, one thing that my wife and I did a grand total of 1 time was she made me wear women's tights before paddling me. The results were quite shocking, in that it burned like you wouldn't believe (presumably because it held the heat in), it hurt as bad or worse than bare (because the flesh was already compressed, increasing the impact), and strangely also with much less visible marking and bruising than I usually had, even though the long term pain was as much or more than usual. Certainly that is something worth experimenting more with.
-ZM
Your women's tights experiment is interesting for those who are squeamish about marking. I would never have thought of that.
DeleteI honestly don’t think I could take the kind of harsh “whatever it takes” beating that K and JR describe. I have never experienced a rubber strap, and from what I have read about it I never want to. I sometimes fantasize about being spanked more harshly than my wife ever does, but when my wife actually spanks me, I am generally relieved when she stops. She never spanks me till I am black and blue or heavily marked, as in pictures I’ve seen. Usually the redness from spankings fades within hours, so some of you guys might think that’s not much of a spanking. But my wife must figure that it works.
ReplyDeleteIn using the phrase “whatever it takes”, I think one needs to ask, “whatever it takes to do what?” Most of our wives would probably say that the way they spank is “whatever it takes” to meet their own objectives. I think my wife would say that her objective in spanking me is to “take me down a peg or two” when I am being argumentative or arrogant or stubborn, and it definitely does that. In fact, even a stern threat feels humbling to me, and it probably gives my wife satisfaction that if she couples a direct order with a spanking threat, I do as I’m told. Now, if “whatever it takes” means whatever it takes to make sure I will be so frightened of punishment that I will never reoffend, I don’t know whether that is even possible for the problems of attitude for which she usually spanks me.
GH
"In using the phrase “whatever it takes”, I think one needs to ask, “whatever it takes to do what?”" Very true and, as you say, wives' objectives may vary.
DeleteI was never afraid of my wife, even though I think she did give me "whatever it takes" spankings. She sought practical and measurable results: "You will never be late without calling me. You will not get into political arguments during social occasions. You will stop tailgating when I am in the car with you. You are limited to two drinks at a party unless I give you permission for a third. You WILL pick up your socks!"
ReplyDeleteIf my behavior didn't change enough after the first spanking, then the second was more severe, the third even more severe, etc. At some point it got through my thick skull that it was in my best interests to change. Not only less pain, but we got along much better. She never demanded anything unreasonable, so why not just go along? I eventually noticed that other people liked the changes she wrought in me. And that I was becoming the best version of myself.
Whatever it takes!
KOJ
When I say I was never afraid of her, I'm not saying I wasn't filled with anxiety before a third spanking for the same offense. I knew I was going to get more than I could tolerate, that she was going to set my ass on fire and give me marks and bruises that would last about two weeks. But she was only giving me what I had earned, as she was sure to remind me during my pants-down scolding. Talk about shrinkage! It was turtle time! ("Aw, where did it go? Is it hiding from a hiding?" She had a great sense of humor, even during punishment).
DeleteI knew my job in these painful moments was to listen, take her message to heart, and handle this severe punishment from the woman who loved me so.
KOJ
"She never demanded anything unreasonable, so why not just go along?" That's a really good question, though probably a rhetorical one in light of how often I have spanked for the same things.
DeleteKOJ, what sort of things do you think you would have otherwise been afraid of?
DeleteJ
J,
DeleteI was afraid of extended conflict and her passive-aggressive responses to it and my resentment. DD resolved virtually all of that!
KOJ
We’ve used DD with good success - improved behaviour (me), greater respect, more thoughtfulness, etc. Like many I am more committed than my wife - she will never spank ‘in anger’ which can sometimes mean that punishments are delayed and that (the very occasional) arguments drag on before we finally resolve, calm down and she will then deal with the transgression. My point to her is that if she could deal with the issue earlier and ideally before it mutates into a full ‘dispute’, then we would avoid any arguments & lead a happier and calmer life.
ReplyDeleteShe still has reservations about spanking when emotions are still running high, whereas I am convinced that taking action early / immediately would break the cycle.
Not sure if I have been completely clear but I would be interested in other views particularly as there is no specific topic this week!
Sorry, should have signed above comment TB
Delete"She still has reservations about spanking when emotions are still running high, whereas I am convinced that taking action early / immediately would break the cycle."
DeleteI go back and forth on this one. I also think it may depend a lot on whether *both* our emotions are running high, or only hers. What I mean by that is, if I'm convinced I'm right and my own emotions are running high, I may not be that open to the discipline. It seems to take a while for me to cool off and see her perspective. On the other hand, if she's mad about something and I'm not, it's probably better for her to express herself in that moment.
I don't have any problem in principle with spanking in anger, though as I've said here before, the whole calm, "business-like" demeanor also really works for me.
As I said, I'm on the fence.
I fully agree. It is ideal for a wife to wait long enough so that she is making rational decisions about how much punishment is necessary, but my wife and I tend to aim for daily so the sun doesn't go down on her anger. Doing it daily means nothing gets let for too long.
ReplyDeleteAs far as I am concerned, one of the raisons d'être for F/M DD spankings is so that there is an immediate way of dealing with offences and they do not drag on into an even more toxic dispute!
J
My wife did spank when she was irritated about my behavior, and she spanked hard. But I never felt she was out of control, and she never needed to apologize for anything done while irritated (which is a better description than "anger," in my mind).
DeleteIf she couldn't spank immediately, she would threaten a spanking to curb my behavior in the moment, and/or promise a spanking later.
These strategies did stop conflict in its tracks, reducing its length and the resentment that typically follows. I appreciated this after many years of extended arguments. I liked knowing that the argument would end quickly, and that actually became more important to me than the outcome! She was usually right, anyway, and I typically agreed with her by the time she let me off her lap.
KOJ
I’m the opposite of above. I wish my wife would spank when she was angry with me. I feel it would resolve the problem immediately and nip it in the bud. I also feel the spanking would be harsher and would hit home internally. I agree with J, that I want that immediate punishment to avoid hurt feeling and resentment. I gotta say KOJ’s relationship was something I could have used in my mid 20’s. My wife isn’t built for an FLR and at this point of my life, I don’t feel I need that level of discipline. I think it’s great that you two were able to build a bond in that relationship that some of us here envy. I wish my wife had that whatever it takes approach. We are in a bit of a lull. We had a break through last year; the scolding and spanking were extraordinary and on par with what I needed and deserved. I think with corporal punishment going away and the drastic changes in our society, DD will probably cease to exist down the road. We have all seen this country drastically change over just the last few years and not for the better. I don’t want to get political, but where have all the values gone?
ReplyDeleteT
"I’m the opposite of above. I wish my wife would spank when she was angry with me. I feel it would resolve the problem immediately and nip it in the bud." I tend to feel this way, too.
DeleteI also could have benefited in my 20s from my later DWC relationship. It would have saved a lot of conflict. But like many guys, I didn't have the self-insight until middle age to allow my wife to manage my ego.
DeleteShe often commented that she wished she had started spanking me at the beginning of our marriage. We argued a lot while our kids were small, and it put undue stress on her. She would tell me, "There were so many times I wanted to smack you in the face. I only wish I had known that I could have been smacking your behind!"
KOJ
We started DD when I was in my late 30s. I really don't know how I would have reacted to it when I was in my 20s or early 30s. It isn't so much that I lacked self-awareness (though, just like my waistline, it has expanded with age) but, rather, I lacked exposure. I don't think I had any awareness at all that adult corporal punishment was a thing until I discovered the DWC in my late 30s. I really have no idea what would have happened had a I discovered it, or something like it, earlier.
DeleteDan, like you I became fascinated by DD in my thirties. Unlike you, I was turned on by spanking fantasies from childhood, but I had no idea that adult F/M DD was a thing, and I think I would have been too proud to submit to my wife when we were married in our mid-twenties. To be honest, I still find it hard to swallow my natural pride sometimes when my wife scolds me and sends me to my room to prepare myself for a spanking, and I don’t know whether I would have been able to do it as a young man.
DeleteI worry about young men today, who are performing poorly compared to women and are in thrall to right wing masculinist gurus like Jordan Peterson and Andrew Tate. Peterson gives some useful self help advice for young men, but the advice comes laced with reactionary politics, a seething resentment against feminism, and a belief that traditional patriarchal male dominance is the natural order. Peterson and his followers would have nothing but contempt for men like us, who would be seen as “unmanly” for subverting patriarchal norms by accepting discipline from our wives. Andrew Tate, who is supplanting Peterson among young men, is even worse. He is openly and unapologetically misogynistic, and he argues that “real men” control their women, if necessary by physical violence. If educational and economic factors are indeed moving us towards a female dominant society, I fear that it will be violently resisted by many young men.
GH
GH, I think you're right about Peterson. Back when he was known primarily for free speech activism and resisting academic speech codes, I actually was kind of a fan. But, his better reasoned views do come wrapped in this 1950's moralism and defense of very traditional family-oriented sexual mores that lead him into ridiculous positions like defending "incels" on the basis that if women weren't so promiscuous and were more committed to traditional family structures then more incels would get laid. He really has allowed himself to become a caricature. Until his recent arrest, and that hilarious takedown by Greta Thunberg, I knew precisely nothing about Andrew Tate. He definitely seems like a complete tool. It's interesting that he and Peterson seem to be almost polar opposites in terms of temperament, philosophies of personal behavior, etc., yet they seem to both be attractive to feckless young men looking for role models.
DeleteI really am puzzled by how I would have reacted to DD in my 20s. I'm not sure that I would have been attracted to it if offered or demanded by a woman who was my peer in age or younger. But, had it come from an older woman, I think it's more than likely I would have gone for it. I knew even back then that I had a thing for older women, though I didn't quite get at the time that what I was attracted to wasn't based on age but, rather, on the confidence and power differential that the age brought with it. And, looking back again, even the girls I got crushes on in high school and college tended to be much more confident than average. So, I think the tendency was probably there all along, but it was about confidence and power and not about spanking, which wasn't at all on my radar at that time.
I would also add, I think that even in high school and college I was fairly self-critical and prone to striving and wanting to succeed (though, I also had impulse control problems and did plenty of dumb shit, leading to a situation where I got great grades while living a pretty debauched and excessive life). So, both the female authority thing and the desire to improve and be held more accountable probably were there from the beginning, even if I wasn't fully aware of them as such.
DeleteDan, like you I had a thing for older women, and I would possibly have found it easier to submit to an older woman, but that’s purely speculative because back then I didn’t think older women were interested in younger men (except for Mrs. Robinson in The Graduate). I am a bit jealous that I missed the phenomenon of “cougars” and MILF’s by a generation. Well, actually, I did have a university buddy who briefly went out with a woman who was almost old enough to be his mother, but that didn’t work out because everyone in his family was utterly shocked and scandalized at the idea of a 40 year old divorcee with a 23 year old man. Even I thought it was strange at the time, but the idea of F/M DD based on an age related power differential is a very hot fantasy.
DeleteGH
Dan: “GH, I think you're right about Peterson. Back when he was known primarily for free speech activism and resisting academic speech codes, I actually was kind of a fan. But, his better reasoned views do come wrapped in this 1950's moralism and defense of very traditional family-oriented sexual mores that lead him into ridiculous positions like defending "incels" on the basis that if women weren't so promiscuous and were more committed to traditional family structures then more incels would get laid. He really has allowed himself to become a caricature.”
DeleteDan, I was put off by Peterson from the beginning because he rose to international fame by grossly misrepresenting the Canadian legislation that extended the protection against discrimination to transgender people. He became a Patreon millionaire through a histrionic presentation of himself to an international audience as a heroic figure who was prepared to go prison in defiance of a tyrannical Liberal government that was “criminalizing” the refusal to use people’s preferred pronouns.
Experts in Canadian law patiently explained that he was misrepresenting the law, and that the idea of him going to prison for misgendering people was ludicrous, but he was able to parlay his BS into a lucrative online brand. He also claimed at the beginning that he had nothing against transgender people and was only resisting “compelled speech”, but he had nothing to say against the virulent transphobic bigotry he unleashed in his followers. And now that transphobic bigotry has become weaponized by the political right, he has become openly transphobic.
GH
GH, it's funny, but when I was in high school it was rumored that I was sleeping with an older teacher. I didn't know about those rumors until a few years after graduation. I told a high school friend that I'd heard about the rumor, and his reply was, "Weren't you?" I wasn't, though given the opportunity I would have in a second. One reason I'm pretty clear in my head now that my attraction to older women back then was about the authority and confidence is it really didn't matter how physically attractive they were. I had mini-crushes on several teachers and professors and even a VP or two in one of my earlier jobs. Some were attractive, some only marginally so. But, what they all shared was the hierarchical structure in which they outranked me and/or had some actual authority over me.
DeleteI haven't followed him closely enough in recent years to see the transphobic openness. It certainly wouldn't be the first time that notoriety breeds a thirst for more notoriety.
DeleteI do admit that I get frustrated with the amount of angst and the ink spilled on the whole pronoun issue. When compared to the civil rights battles of the recent past, this whole post-modernist fixation with language seems mostly performative, designed more to signal that you're on the "good" side than to actually change anything. I sometimes wonder what Dr. King or John Lewis and others on the Selma march who got their heads kicked in would think about some of the histrionics--on both sides--around pronouns.
GH, I don't know whether you have access to HBO+, but Bill Maher's show this week talks directly about everything we just talked about above, including the statistics on male vs. female success and Andrew Tate's influence.
DeleteDarn, I don’t have HBO. I would like to see that.
DeleteI agree with you about the pronoun thing. There has been too much performative virtue signaling on both sides of the issue. But Peterson’s performative BS about being prepared to go to prison, which was never a remote possibility, to resist “compelled speech” raised the issue of pronouns to popular consciousness in a ridiculous way. The legislation he was protesting wasn’t about pronouns. It was about issues that people in the civil rights movement would have respected. It was about protecting people from discrimination in the workplace and the housing market. It said that physically assaulting a transgender person could be treated as a hate crime, like assaulting a person on the basis of race or religion or sexual orientation. Peterson’s scaremongering about people being prosecuted for using a wrong pronoun was complete bullshit, but he managed to convince an international audience that the law was a radical left wing initiative that would lead to Maoist style gulags in Canada for transgressions of political correctness. Unfortunately, trans activists on campus played into his hands by overreacting, which empowered him in his risible martyr schtick. As a Canadian, I am embarrassed by the Peterson phenomenon. He has contributed to our gross domestic stupidity. End of rant.
GH
Dan: “One reason I'm pretty clear in my head now that my attraction to older women back then was about the authority and confidence is it really didn't matter how physically attractive they were. I had mini-crushes on several teachers and professors and even a VP or two in one of my earlier jobs. Some were attractive, some only marginally so. But, what they all shared was the hierarchical structure in which they outranked me and/or had some actual authority over me.”
DeleteDan, I know exactly what you mean. I felt like that about a couple of the women teachers I had in high school. I wouldn’t say either was especially pretty, but they had a somewhat strict demeanour, which pushed buttons. One was are our Latin teacher, and she did something on the first day of class that blew my mind. Our Latin textbook was called Our Latin Legacy. In the textbook there was a line drawing with the caption, “Roman style school discipline.” It showed a boy being held in place over the back of a classmate. His toga had been raised to expose his bare buttocks, and the schoolmaster was preparing to punish him with a bundle of switches. Well, at the beginning of our first day of Latin class, the teacher instructed us to open the textbook to that page, and she drew our attention to that picture. Then she said something like, “Let that stand as a warning that you are expected to do your homework in this class.” We all laughed, of course, because the implied threat that she might punish us that way was obviously a joke. But I think I also blushed and squirmed in my seat because her joke gave me an erotic jolt. I have sometimes wondered since then whether she was able to see that her joke made some of us blush and catch our breath. In any case, I had spanking fantasies about that teacher throughout high school. In fact, I still do. Lol
GH
I wonder how many of your classmates also were blushing and squirming right along with you, and whether your teacher was enjoying every minute of it.
DeleteMr T asks where have all the values gone. Good question, as we continue to witness our democracy being attacked. That relates to this blog, in that the more oppressive, regilous and authoritian a country becomes, the less freedom there is, including sexual freedom. Much of this has to do with social media, the internet, and how we relate to each other. My hope is that DD will continue to become widely accepted and practiced, particularly F/M spanking. There is a longing some of us guys feel to have boundaries and guardrails. If you are wired that way and are lucky enough to find a woman that can provide that kind of love, your relationship and life in general will be better. My hope is that DD will continue to grow, because it works. Congradulations on finally getting the spanking and scolding you needed. Seems like it usually takes reaching middle age for many guys to realize and accept that DD and F/M spanking might be good for them. It has been great for me.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you Norton, I do believe our democracy is being attacked. I believe the internet to some degree has hurt our youth. Although some children are educated earlier and are learning at a quicker pace, their interpersonal relations skills are non existent. A lot of the youth have no idea how to communicate without their phones. It’s also much easier to criticize and ridicule behind an anonymous phone. I agree that some of us are happy about being held to a set of boundaries, and I hope that an increase in FM spanking will increase overtime. I think women are smart, educated and tend to take much less crap from men than in the past. When my wife and I started dating, I tried to use the same lines as the ex and she promptly shut me down. She refused to take my attitude and suggested I straighten up. This helped me slowly influence DD. She was not gonna take the same immaturity that my ex put up with at times. It is a shame that it takes to middle age to get the punishment you need and desire. I luckily was spanked by a girlfriend in my early twenties and visited a great disciplinarian in my early twenties. Unfortunately, the discipline was not there as it is now. There is definitely things I would never do now that I did in my twenties and thirties. I believe my wife’s influence had contributed to this. Although we are in a bit of a lull, we had a minor disagreement a few days ago and my attitude sucked, I suggested she does something about it. (I still can’t bring myself to ask for a spanking). She said she would be spanking me this week.
DeleteT
Since I seem to have started some of this discussion, I'd like to mention two things. First, just to clarify: J is not constantly beating me to within an inch of my life with a rubber strap. It's extremely rare, reserved for when she needs to seriously punish me, which is something both she and I want to avoid (though for somewhat different reasons).
ReplyDeleteSecond, the fact that she has in her arsenal the ability to punish me in ways I'm GENUINELY afraid of, that I REALLY don't like, and that I go out of my way to avoid, has definitely changed the dynamics of our relationship (for the better). I feel truly that she's in charge, not merely that we're playing a game, and that reality permeates our day to day life. I find it comforting, and very, very sexy. (On the rare occasions when she severely punishes me, there's NOTHING sexy about it, especially after she has me climax, but the memory if it reinforces a relationship that I find very sexually fulfilling, if that makes sense).
There's something essentially different in knowing that I'm subject to being punished "for real" by the woman I cherish.
"The fact that she has in her arsenal the ability to punish me in ways I'm GENUINELY afraid of, that I REALLY don't like, and that I go out of my way to avoid, has definitely changed the dynamics of our relationship (for the better). I feel truly that she's in charge, not merely that we're playing a game . . ."
DeleteK, that totally makes sense to me. In fact, that dynamic is probably why I found your original comment intriguing.
I sort of wish my husband would make me fearful of getting a spanking!
ReplyDeleteCynthia Ellen
How long have you been discussing this with him? Sometimes it takes time for couples to find their way.
DeleteCynthia Ellen, I know how you feel, and I sympathize with you. But your desire puts your husband in a tricky place. If he spanked you in a harsh way that made you fearful of spankings, he might feel like a misogynist “wife beater.” Also, where I live he might feel himself to be on dangerous ground legally because Canadian law doesn’t recognize consent as grounds to harm someone. Additionally, if you were truly afraid of a spanking he was about to give you, one could argue whether you were even consenting at all in the moment. In a way, F/M DD is less risky than M/F DD, because people assume that when a man allows a woman to spank him, he must unambiguously want it. Personally, I am turned on by the fantasy of a woman who is bigger and stronger than me, forcibly turning me over her knee and spanking me in a way I could not possibly want while I cried and begged her to stop, although that would be considered a criminal assault. Just to say, I understand exactly what you want, but it’s a tricky business from a man’s perspective.
DeleteGH
He is very much into the men don't hurt women thing. He wants light spanking to just be foreplay. I need punishment. I am working on him and have been for the better part of a year. I don't know if it will ever work out. I may have to find a disciplinarian. There are several on spankingneeds who are highly rated by women who have used them. Anyone here familiar with that site?
ReplyDeleteCynthia Ellen
Perhaps you could discuss a disciplinary framework with him. This doesn't have to involve corporal punishment.
DeleteFor example, with one of my girlfriends we developed a disciplinary framework to use with her children. We didn't feel it was appropriate to hit them, for a variety of reasons, but we established consequences that didn't involve striking them.
We had five levels of misbehavior, from the least problematic to the most, and a set of consequences at each level. Level 1 was for behavior that was bad, but didn't affect others. This might be not keeping their rooms tidy. For Level 1, the consequence was a discussion with them about why they should behave in a certain way.
It's important to define the misbehavior well, so that it is clear when you deserve to be punished and what level of consequences are due.
The consequences included things like taking away a cherished object for a time, denying them a fun experience, time outs (corner time or grounding), and so on. Repeating an offense would elevate to the next level.
For your situation, you might work with your husband to use non-corporal discipline for lower levels, and save a spanking for the most severe level. This level should include additional elements, like your admission that you misbehaved and deserve to be punished, lecturing, corner time, and whatever elements you feel you need to experience this as a punishment. In this case, even a few mild swats can be a pretty effective punishment.
He might be more amendable to developing a disciplinary framework, which would allow you to discuss your needs. He might see them in a more loving light.
Hope this gives you some ideas for working things out in the way that works best for you.
Cynthia Ellen, when you say, “I need punishment”, do you mean that you need discipline to meet behavioural objectives for which you lack self discipline, or do you mean that you have an erotic craving for it? I think you need to clarify that in your own mind, then you need to communicate clearly with your husband about it. I have always had difficulty understanding men who won’t give their wives something that they crave, and I know from discussions at spanko websites I used to frequent that there are many women who are frustrated by husbands refusal to discipline them. I once spanked a woman in that situation. I corresponded with her after having written a couple of collaborative online spanking stories with her. When she found out I was going to be in her city for a conference, she asked if I would spank her. She felt bad about going behind her husband’s back, but she said she absolutely needed to experience a spanking at least once. So I spanked her. It was just a spanking. We agreed in advance that there would be no other intimate activity, but it was obviously erotically charged for both of us. I remember thinking how foolish the husband was for failing to meet a need that was so strong that an otherwise faithful wife would look to another man for it.
DeleteGH
GH, I actually do get the aversion. There is no way I could give a disciplinary spanking to a woman. I have very little problem with the thought of physical violence against men, but the thought of inflicting anything resembling it on a woman makes me almost ill to think about. It's possible that with the right conditioning--starting with very mild, erotic spankings and going from there--I could get over it, but as I'm wired now, it would be a non-starter for me.
DeleteDan, I guess I can understand your reluctance. But the reason I could give a disciplinary spanking to a woman who asked for it is that I have such a craving for it myself that I would be motivated by empathy. I feel as though empathizing with the person needing discipline would make me a good disciplinarian if that role fell to me.
DeleteGH
I'm sure being empathetic would be of benefit to the disciplined party, though I still don't think I could do it regardless of the degree of empathy. If it were something she really wanted and needed, I'd be more likely to consenting to her getting it from a third-party.
DeleteJust fyi, in our case, discussions about her needing/wanting corporal punishment are entirely theoretical. She has made it very clear that ours is a purely one-way arrangement where discipline is concerned. She has zero interest in being on the receiving end.
Dan, the idea of spanking my wife is hypothetical too. Like your wife, Renée has made clear that she has no interest in being on the receiving end. Though I would spank her if she asked, I prefer one sided DD because switching roles might diminish her aura of authority.
DeleteGH
We do erotic spanking and I have tried to turn it disciplinary to no avail. I have talked at length with him about my need for punishment spankings. I put myself in the corner and he laughed. I teasingly suggested one of his friends spank me and he said no way. I have tried to show him some blogs like Ronniesoul and he said it was fake. I will never cheat on him for sex, but I might for corporal punishment.
ReplyDeleteCynthia Ellen
Cynthia Ellen, if you don’t mind my asking, do you feel as though you actually do things you deserve to be punished for? Maybe your husband can’t get his head around the idea of punishing you because he sees no need. The fact that he gives you erotic spankings puts you part way there. The husband of the woman I spanked wouldn’t spank her at all. Maybe you need to work on the erotic angle. Tell your husband that you really appreciate that he spanks you. Tell him how sexy he is when he spanks you. Then tell him that for you the more realistic the spanking, the sexier it is. What guy doesn’t want to be as sexy as possible in his wife’s eyes? Also, maybe you should introduce him to the idea of a safe word. I know that having a safe word might make the spanking seem more like BDSM play than real discipline, but a safe word can give security to the spanker because he will know that you will stop the spanking if he ever lays it on too hard.
DeleteGH
GH has a point about a safe word. I think it is important to have a safe word even for punishments, because there are plenty of things that can go wrong during spanking. For example, you could have a medical situation come up. Or, you just might be in a position that takes your attention away from the spanking. This can be corrected if you have a safe word to use that allows you to enter "straight time" and discuss what's going on. Often, the situation can be rectified and you can go on with the spanking.
DeleteAnd GH is right that if your husband knows you have this out, he can be confident he isn't going over the line.
Also, I think we need to distinguish "harm" from "hurt". A spanking should hurt, but it shouldn't harm the person getting it. It shouldn't cause lasting physical or emotional damage.
Good discipline allows the person receiving it to feel better about themselves, because they know their behavior will be better. It should add to the person's self-esteem.
I have always had an interest in receiving, being a male, kept to myself. I also believed strongly that the female is one who is not listened to. The female brings life into this world, raises the child, and this is forgotten. When I was dating, a couple of times the person I was dating said that males just have not grown up enough and soon the relationship was over. I woman I dated and married, brought up the subject, and I loved her so much, wanted not to lose her, over months it was agreed upon that she would be the lead in the marriage and that what she said goes. She mentioned that spankings, I said at my age, she smiled act your and would not happen. A couple of weeks before we got married, I was told my attitude and behavior needed some improving and I was told to obey her or the marriage was off. She said she needed to sure I truly meant that she would be the lead. I looked at her and said I would do as told. Having her pull down my pants, underpants and told to get over her lap, I did slowly. The spanking I got, really got my attention, hurt like hell, and facing the wall afterwards I promise to improve. So in this relationship, my wife being in charge, always knowing that the female who takes the lead, continue to 'raise' the male, life is better for both, I feel the male comes out on top, less stress, worries.
ReplyDeleteI'm late to these questions. The discussion has been excellent, as always. The black woman in the first image is beautiful!
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't want to be threatened with whatever it takes for its own sake, but I've realized I'm more on the side of wanting serious discipline, spanking for its own sake and the charge of having my wife initiate and administer these things. I am not interested in a full FLR. Regardless of type of DD interest, though, it makes sense to me to commit to whatever it takes to curb an issue if it's serious enough, like taking life-saving medication or exercising enough diligence when watching the children.
I'd like to know what it's like to suffer so much pain from an implement that I throw it away, for some strange reason. How much DD is motivated by morbid curiosity? :)
On the societal change topic: the big trend seems to be for younger women to be increasingly open about their interests in being spanked, not in giving spankings. One of the male archetypes here, including Dan, I believe, is the hard-charging man at work who is reined in by his wife at home. Since so many younger women participate in the workplace, it makes sense to me that they'd be more interested in being spanked, in addition to whatever the predominant heterosexual dynamics add to that.
At the same time, the self-improvement trend is huge and there are so many men openly trying weird things to force themselves to accomplish their goals. You can find articles and videos where men hire women to watch them work all day. I've seen a video where the man paid a woman to slap him if he switched to random Internet browsing! This was in mainstream business and productivity social media. There's a wristband you can buy that gives you an electric shock if monitoring software catches you slacking. A spanking seems just a step away from those techniques and shouldn't be much less socially acceptable.
I agree - very attractive. Intense eyes.
Delete"I'd like to know what it's like to suffer so much pain from an implement that I throw it away, for some strange reason. How much DD is motivated by morbid curiosity? :)" For sure. I definitely went through a "more severe must be better" phase where implements were concerned. I eventually came around the fact that some really are just too much.
I hadn't heard about those self-improvement/monitoring tools. That's pretty wild!