Hello all. Welcome back to The Disciplinary Couple’s Club. Our weekly on-line gathering of men and women who are in, or would like to be in, a Domestic Discipline or Female Led Relationship.
I hope you all had a good week and, for those who celebrate Easter or are beneficiaries of its inclusion among work holidays, are enjoying a long weekend.
We are off on a little vacation starting this weekend, so I won’t be posting a new topic.
However, since multiple people brought it up, I am re-posting this three-part set of anonymous comments that were in response to the “Fantasy vs. Reality” post in April of 2016 that formed the basis for last week’s post. Although I can quibble with it in a couple of areas, I think it does do a very good job of summarizing what a “real” disciplinary spanking is like for many of us.
I’ve also included a comment on that set of comments, which was also made anonymously but supposedly came from a disciplinary wife.
Enjoy your week! I may weigh in from time-to-time on any comments, and I’ll try to clear out the currently very fucked up Blogger spam filter daily.
Anon - part 1
Thank you for the thought provoking letter ZM. I am interested in the psychology of punishment, which you touched upon in the beginning about why you want and need this.
Most of the men on this board claim to want real punishment. In a domestic discipline relationship the punishments need to be harsh enough to change behaviors, but even those who just have this as a fantasy still want the actual punishment part to be real. Real in this case means unpleasant enough that you are hating it at the time it happens. One common “complaint” that I have read on this blog, and on the polls, is that husbands want firmer discipline than their wives give. Earlier comments talked about how the husband can be brought to the point of surrendering to the spanking more easily. Whether it is because the wife is not punishing correctly or because the husband isn’t able to surrender, it is clear that many men are not getting what they want and need so badly.
So if you are a wife, what do you do if your husband shares his need for discipline with you, whether in a fantasy context or in a DD or FLR context? First off, don’t even try to understand why he wants or needs this, because if he doesn’t understand (and he doesn’t) then there is no chance of you understanding! But even if you cannot understand why he needs this, talk with him to try to understand just exactly what it is that he is wanting, and then agree on what things you will punish him for and any other parameters. Assuming he wants “real” punishment, here are some tips for a real punishment with an emphasis on the all-important mental aspects:
Anon - part 2
- Decide for yourself that the punishment WILL continue until he reaches surrender. Resolve that you will see this punishment through and give him what he really needs.
- Start by telling him what he did wrong and how it made you feel. Scold him harshly, because shame is a critical part of punishment. Don’t hold back at all, use a very strong voice, and be as “bitchy” as you can bring yourself to be. Don’t worry, the bitchier you are, the more he will love you for it later! By the time you are done he should feeling horrible about what he has done and be almost relieved to move onto the painful part just to be done with the lecture.
- Tell him that you are going to give him a long, hard spanking. Make sure that he understands just how painful it is going to be and that it will go on until he is truly sorry, plus some. Use phrases like “until you can’t sit for a week” to make it more intimidating. He needs to understand that it will be more than he can endure and that he will be pushed past the limit of what he can take, but he will have to take it anyway. This will help him to surrender to it later.
- Scolding can continue through any part of the punishment, including corner time.
- If you want to give him a warm-up spanking, do it now. It will give him something to think about as he waits for the real punishment to start. Use either your hand or a hairbrush and start softly, but increase the speed and force until it starts to really sting.
- Now put him in the corner with his bare bottom on display to wait for the real punishment. Make him wait 10-15 minutes which will seem like an eternity to him and he will feel very ashamed, even if he is used to you seeing him naked.
- Begin the actual punishment. Now it is time to use something much more severe than your hand, like a paddle or a heavy strap. Hit harder than you think you should, with most of your strength. From the first stroke, the pain should be a shock to him and it should build to become completely unbearable. Don’t forget to keep scolding him.
- At first, he may take it pretty well. You can be proud that he is taking it like the man that he is (after all he is your man!) but both of you should know that the taking it like a man won’t last. You will continue until he is reduced to feeling like a naughty boy, and then punish the naughty right out of him!
- As you keep punishing him, you will see that he will start to struggle. This is very difficult because you love him and don’t want to hurt him, but keep in mind WHAT HE NEEDS AND WANTS IS A PUNISHMENT SO SEVERE THAT HE DOESN’T WANT IT AT THE TIME.
- As he struggles more he will tell you that he has had enough and that he has learned his lesson, but let him know that the punishment is going to continue until he is very sorry, and that he is nowhere near sorry enough yet. Continue scolding him, and increase the speed and power of the spanking, showing no mercy. Remember that he has a safeword and he hasn’t used it (and probably won’t since he really needs this).
- Ignore how red he gets. By the time you are finished, his bottom will probably look horrible and will be swollen and have some bruises. Don’t worry, as long as you are hitting only his bottom it is almost impossible to injure him and he will heal very quickly.
Anon - Part 3
- The shame and pain will grow until he simply can’t take any more, and at that point you will see that he will relax and stop fighting the punishment. If you can see that he is not reaching the point of surrendering to the punishment, take a break and put him in the corner to think for a while, and also to regain some sensitivity, since the bottom becomes numb pretty quickly.
- Continue until he surrenders to the punishment. Unless he says the safeword, the punishment will continue as long and as hard as necessary to bring about this surrender. Note that you are looking for surrender, and not necessarily tears, since some men may cry and others will not. It has nothing to do with how physically or emotionally strong they are, and is just how they are wired. If it is hard for you to see your man cry, remember that in fact some of the strongest men cry much more easily than others who are weaker and less secure.
- Once he surrenders, it is up to you how long to continue, but don’t stop immediately since this is the most productive part of the punishment and now real learning is taking place. A good rule of thumb is to treat this as the 3/4 point of the punishment so punish him about another 1/3 as much as you have to this point.
- And now finally the punishment will be over. He will probably be somewhat physically and emotionally drained. It is very important to be close to him and to hold on to him. If you are like me, you will feel closer to him now than at any other time so enjoy the time.
A real punishment like I just described is very difficult for many wives to administer, since even those who love the thrill of control and who really understand that this is exactly what their husband needs still find it difficult to be so harsh and to do something so painful. They love their husband and don’t want to see him suffer. But no matter how hard it is to do, if your husband has this need and if you fulfill it you will see that he will be much happier, more content, more loving, and more relaxed for weeks or even a month afterwards, which makes a difficult hour of punishment more than worth it for both of you.
Anonymous response
As a disciplinary wife I can say that yes it is very difficult sometimes to punish my husband like this. I know that he needs this, I have seen how it has transformed his attitudes and behavior, I know that he really wants this except for sometimes when it is actually happening, and I know that as soon as it is over he will start forgetting just how painful it was and it won't be long until he is wanting or needing another. As I prepare to punish him I know all these things and usually I can't wait to show him some of the strong emotions I am feeling and let his bottom feel the results of his bad decisions. So I am always ready to punish him good and hard until I am sure that he learned his lesson. But then as the spanking gets harder and I can see that he is really hurting it is so hard to keep going because I love him and just want to stop and forgive him. But when I am able to keep going and give him a lot more than he wants at the time until he just gives up and thinks it will never end it is so powerful. These punishments completely clear everything between us and I am able to let go of all the emotions I am feeling and he feels all the guilt leave and feels like he got just what he needs and I see that it leaves him calm and at peace. After one of these spankings we feel so close to each other unlike any other time. These hard punishments are not easy for me to give but they are so good for our relationship.
Just a little something to start us off in our discussion . . .
ReplyDeleteLast week, there was some discussion as to whether the "anonymous poster" was a disciplinary wife or husband with significant real-punishment experience pretending to be such a wife. Frankly, I can see either way being possibility.
Near the end of the discussion, Dan pointed out something that many of us may have simply assumed: That the "anonymous poster" (male or female) was "channeling" the female perspective. Dan wrote: "Upon re-reading that set of comments, the commenter never actually represents or even insinuates that he/she is a woman."
Upon my own rereading of the three part essay, I realized how correct Dan's comment was, and how I had always assumed the commentator was "channeling" the female perspective. However, upon a fourth rereading, I think it is truly a disciplinary wife expressing herself as that wife. The reason I changed my mind? The last sentence of the second to the last paragraph:
"[When the spanking is over,] [if] you are like me, you will feel closer to him now than at any other time so enjoy the time.'
That statement is definitely from the female perspective, and I don't think any [non-transgender] "male playing a female" would be able to so express such a female emotional experience.
Just my thoughts added to the general discussion. Do other members see my perspective?
Ah, I didn't catch that sentence.
DeleteI didn't feel that the "you will feel closer to him now than any other time" comment was necessary from a female perspective. Yesterday, my G/F gave me a very hard disciplinary spanking, which was extremely cathartic and deeply satisfying. I certainly felt very close to her, and have never been so vulnerable before. After it was over, we held each other, and she reminded me I would be getting my regular maintenance spanking tomorrow, regardless of my now very sore bottom. I love her all the more for insisting on keeping the boundaries intact and assuring me she would be very willing and happy to do so. It is exactly what I need.
DeleteI too missed that line when I first read over it. To me, that seems clearly that the poster is writing from the female perspective. I don't think it changes much of anything, but I do think it was a good observation.
Delete-ZM
An interesting revisit article that pre-dates me finding here. In terms of how harsh should I want Mrs GL to go when the first punishment spanking of the new regime is needed (not so far as I have kept to my promise not to deliberately provoke a chastisement and my good mood since she agreed to the concept of a FLDD marriage as meant my general behaviour is good presently) is I suppose tempered by those elements that I think shape my need, mental relief and mood improvement. For me those wouldn't necessarily be accrued with a purple blotched bottom!
ReplyDeleteIf I can use example experience from using Disciplinarians (which are now part of my history because even if Mrs GL's most effective spankings are relatively mild I can't justify being in a FLDD and utilising professionals anymore). The one occasion I had real bruising on a wide area, which took weeks to heal, was also the one occasion I nearly felt beaten up. I can take a real whopping and have never cried but I knew that in parts of that session I was in new territory. I have had others leave marks that also lingered but those were in sessions where the spanker played a role and as such knew when to stop (and when not to).
Interesting that the original writer makes reference to using the hairbrush as part of the warm up!! No way is that a warm up item in the hands of a few people I've been over the knee of! The cultural differences between the States and here in the UK shine through in the references to straps and paddles for the main part of the punishment. Here the cane would be the preferred item. Nothing against straps (a then UK based Texas brought up icon of the disciplinary arts educated me on them a few years ago) but paddles leave me cold!
In essence I think whilst mentally real punishment has to hurt to be effective, it doesn't need to be bordering on vicious. In my last two sessions I got in one of them 18 of the most perfect laid down cane lines (after hand warm up) that looked wonderful (and were just write in levels) off someone I know reads people well. Equally my last trip over the disciplinarian knee had me as close to the ultimate experience as I think I can get but not over, it was wonderfully judged. Both of those (and most of the others) are examples of where trust matters the most. Now with Mrs GL that trust is never in doubt. Maybe she will surprise me one day and maybe my bottom will be close to the images the original article brings to the imagination (after all if I'm giving her that power I can't complain if she takes it), who knows? What I do know is whilst hearing "you won't sit down for a week" would be great, in reality not sitting down for more than 48 hours would seem excessive. Apart from that I enjoyed reading this. Cheers GLM.
GLM, I find your post interesting, so I hope you don’t mind if I ask a couple of questions. I have been tempted to go to a professional disciplinarian in the past, but I haven’t because that would be hurtful to my wife, and a bruised bottom would be hard to explain if I did it behind her back. My question: does one go to a professional disciplinarian for actual discipline concerning real failings, or is it simply because one has a craving to be spanked. I mean, with a professional who has no personal stake in your behaviour, unlike your wife, would “discipline” not be role playing? Second question: you said your last session with a professional got you “as close to the ultimate experience” as you think you can get. I think I know what you mean, but I am not sure. Is the “ultimate experience” an altered state of consciousness, like a kind of euphoria or self-transcendence?
DeleteGH
GH, I have tended to go for a variety of reasons which mix and match. So have chosen disciplinarians who do role-play and some who don't. I have chosen some with a reputation for the discipline being real and others who clearly are maternal in nature (but still effective). Mixing role-play with hard discipline sometimes works well but have also enjoyed "Spanking 101" sessions where every possible implement has been tested on me. I have chosen people occasionally because the references others give mention mentoring and caring and then sometimes when those testimonials say their hands/hairbrush are effective and painful. Sometimes you just have to decide what you need? Please bare in mind the context is the UK.
DeleteIn terms of my last experience I just got into the zone of fully trusting the spanker and that trust was rewarded with the most effective chastisement yet, a pain level that built and took me to the edge but kept me in that zone that makes me almost light-headed and serene.
If I can offer a peice of unsolicited advice, I got lucky that I could plan my visits to professionals around my home circumstances so that hiding marks and bruising wasn't too difficult. I wouldn't recommend booking sessions secretly unless you are confident of your ability to get away with it or if you will be having your bottom bared at home regularly. The planning could be stressful sometimes and of course paying without attracting attention requires thinking through. One the positive side, get the right person, which I did 9 times out of 10, and the experience is very worthwhile.
Hope this helps? Cheers GLM
Thanks for your detailed response, GLM. Yes, it is helpful. I am envious of your extensive experience being spanked. Nevertheless, I like to hear about other people’s experiences. I would be tempted to go to a professional if I could get away with it, but it would probably be a bad idea for medical reasons right now. Medical issues are the reason I haven’t been spanked at home for a long time, and I know rationally that it’s probably necessary to give DD a rest, but I have a climbing the wall craving for a long hard spanking right now. Cheers, GH
DeleteThe advice Anon gave seems like a template that many of us would fantasize about. But the actuality needs to be tailored to the individual man.
ReplyDeleteOne thing I realized in delivering the pain was that every person is different in their experience of it. What might seem to me is too harsh to bear may well be light for the person receiving it. Or, the other way around.
What GLM said about Disciplinarians is instructive. Of one, he says, "it was wonderfully judged." Of another, "I knew that in parts of that session I was in new territory."
It's that level of understanding that makes a good disciplinarian. That person can change behavior without being excessive. One advantage of an FLR may be that the female can tune in exactly to what her male needs.
I read how-to advice for women like this as instructions by a male on how *he* wants to be punished. I figure too-good-to-be true comments from alleged females are most likely a male's wishful thinking. Despite my cynicism, that doesn't make the subject uninteresting, but I have no desire to give a woman advice. I want the source of the discipline to be her, not her acting out or following a script. She is interested in knowing me and what I want, but she isn't trained. She knows what she wants. I enjoy her for being her, and she enjoys me for being me. Pleasing each other is at the heart of it.
ReplyDeleteThe key is compatibility and each of us looking for what works for ourselves and each other. While I want the discipline to feel real, and to be adequately effective discipline, we both are fully aware that we are indulging our fetishistic urges. I understand the desire for accountability and self-improvement, but if she isn't interested in spanking because she's into spanking, and it's just about getting practical disciplinary results to have me serving her better, we're not compatible.
Brett, are you saying you would need to know your disciplinarian was getting sexual pleasure from spanking you for DD to be satisfying for you? That’s kind of the way I feel. I think DD for my wife is about “getting practical disciplinary results”, as you put it, but I fantasize about her getting sexual pleasure from it. In my head, I tell myself that her lack of sexual interest makes the discipline more real, but if I’m honest about my feelings, I wish spanking me was satisfying a craving for her too.
DeleteGH
GH, ideally, my disciplinarian would be sexually aroused. However, like me, the sexuality of it would not interfere with the discipline. Punishment must still be rational and legitimate, and not just because it turns us on. What excites us is that the circumstances are real regardless. It's a fetish focused on real discipline that relies on authenticity. Enthusiasm doesn't have to be explicitly or overtly sexual, so I still might find satisfaction in spanking as long as she derived some emotional satisfaction from it beyond just the practical. Examples would be to satisfy maternal urges, nurturing for my benefit, or maybe that she is attracted to the justice involved in crime and punishment.
DeleteBrett, I share your feelings about this. Because spanking is sexual for me, I like to imagine it feels sexual to my wife too. She says she likes having power to discipline me when I annoy her, but that it isn’t sexual for her. But whether it is sexual or not, I can see that she relishes the power to lecture me, and to have my undivided attention, when she is brandishing the paddle and my pants are around my knees.
DeleteGH
Dan, Happy Easter to all. We just returned from a much needed vacation. I was pretty much off the grid for the entire week or so. I’ve received only a few “disciplinary” spankings like the one described above. I’ve received many spankings though. While away, I did receive a spanking for being a bit snooty with my wife. It was not long but delivered quickly with a strap (not the usual one used), so a bit more tame so
ReplyDeleteto speak. I posted that we have been in a lull with DD lately, so I was shocked by it. While away, we stepped over a piece of bamboo and she made a comment “ we should bring this back to the room so I can use it on you”. I was a bit testy do my lack of patience with some people. On our last travel day home, our flights were delayed multiple times. I was exhausted and my attitude was not pleasant. She actually made the comment in front of a few people we didn’t know, that my attitude would be much different tomorrow. The spankings described above are the ones I feel I need. Some of the spankings my wife delivers are on par and others are way too short. I do enjoy the closeness /bond, after a good thrashing. I am proud of her for putting me back in line. Im sure like others, she does stop at times when she should keep going. We do not have a safe word. I’ve broken a few sweats during the thrashing and she is aware when I’ve “had enough”.
I do believe every punishment should be like the ones described above. For me, it separates reality from fantasy.
T
I agree with Norton and Brett: my gut feeling is that this is a man pretending to be a woman offering advice to other women, and the advice is basically that women should spank their men the way he wants to be spanked. I also agree with Rich Person that the “template” offered in this advice would have to be modified to suit individual men whose needs may be different. Personally, I’m not sure I could take a spanking of that severity, even though I sometimes fantasize about it.
ReplyDeleteI also disagree with the premise that severity is the feature that distinguishes a “real disciplinary spanking” from pretend discipline. Before I knew real DD was a thing, I was involved in some online communities that were into spanking as a form of erotic sadomasochism. In those communities, spanking can be like an extreme sport that matches or surpasses in severity anything that passes as DD. There are some things about this advice that are suggestive of erotic S&M as opposed to DD. The first is the assumption that the guy will have a safe word. Does anyone here actually have a safe word? I don’t, though maybe I would need one if my wife “disciplined” me like that. The other is that “she” is saying that the goal of spanking should be to induce an altered state of consciousness in the man. She doesn’t use the BDSM expression “sub space”, but her description of the goal of spanking sounds suspiciously similar to descriptions of sub space one hears from sadomasochistic fetishists. It is also interesting that there is no suggestion that punishment should fit the crime, which implies that the specific disciplinary purpose is irrelevant to the severity of the punishment. It is entirely focused on the guy’s “need”, and ignores the disciplinarian’s sense of purpose.
I feel it is inaccurate to see severity as the defining feature of a “real disciplinary spanking”. I would argue that any spanking given for the purpose of discipline, no matter how mild or severe, is a disciplinary spanking. From what I have read of other guys’ experiences, spankings from my wife probably range from mild to moderate, according to the standards of most people here. Depending on what I have done and how my wife feels about it, she may have me bend over the end of the bed for a painful and sustained (though not extreme) dose of the hairbrush, paddle, or strap. Or she may just order me to bend over on the spot for a few whacks accompanied by a scolding and a warning to smarten up. In both of those cases the spanking is disciplinary because her intention is to modify my behaviour or to adjust my attitude, and because I am acutely sensitive to the shaming effect of any spanking, it functions as discipline without having to be severe.
GH
I agree with Norton and Brett: my gut feeling is that this is a man pretending to be a woman offering advice to other women, and the advice is basically that women should spank their men the way he wants to be spanked. I also agree with Rich Person that the “template” offered in this advice would have to be modified to suit individual men whose needs may be different. Personally, I’m not sure I could take a spanking of that severity, even though I sometimes fantasize about it.
ReplyDeleteI also disagree with the premise that severity is the feature that distinguishes a “real disciplinary spanking” from pretend discipline. Before I knew real DD was a thing, I was involved in some online communities that were into spanking as a form of erotic sadomasochism. In BDSM communities, spanking can be like an extreme sport that matches or surpasses in severity anything that passes as DD. Some aspects of this advice are suggestive of erotic S&M as opposed to DD. The first is the assumption that the guy will have a safe word. Does anyone here actually have a safe word? I don’t, though maybe I would need one if my wife “disciplined” me like that. Also, “she” is arguing that the goal of spanking should be to induce an altered state of consciousness in the man. She doesn’t use the BDSM expression “sub space”, but her description of the psychological goal of spanking sounds suspiciously similar to descriptions of sub space one hears from sadomasochistic fetishists. Additionally, there is no mention of the kind of circumstance that would justify such harsh punishment, or any suggestion that the punishment should fit the crime. It is as though the husband’s “need” to be spanked severely for whatever reason eclipses any sense of disciplinary purpose individual wives might have.
I feel it is inaccurate to see severity as the defining feature of a “real disciplinary spanking”. I would argue that any spanking given for the purpose of discipline, no matter how mild or severe, is a disciplinary spanking. From what I have read of other guys’ experiences, spankings from my wife probably range from mild to moderate, according to the standards of most people here. Depending on what I have done and how my wife feels about it, she may have me bend over the end of the bed for a painful and sustained (though not extreme) dose of the hairbrush, paddle, or strap. Or she may just order me to bend over on the spot for a few whacks accompanied by a scolding and a warning to smarten up. In both of those cases the spanking is disciplinary because her intention is to modify my behaviour or to adjust my attitude, and because I am acutely sensitive to the shaming effect of any spanking, it functions as discipline without having to be severe.
GH
Dan, sorry about double posting, but the first time it seemed to have disappeared into thin air. GH
Delete"Does anyone here actually have a safe word?"
DeleteWhile many people don't have safe words, let me recommend it. There are plenty of things that can go wrong. Having a safe word allows the couple to straighten those things out.
In any spanking I give (I'm usually on the providing end), I make sure there is a safe word so that I can be confident the communication will happen regardless. I may say that the safe word is only for situations that need to be addressed. It's not to prevent the spanking from hurting or even hurting "too much". The recipient is getting punished, so the level of pain isn't what determines its use. But someone could have a medical emergency, for example.
So, I think of the safe word as a way to signal the need for straight time, where we can have a meta discussion and fix any problem. That might just be that the position is distracting. I don't want something extraneous to get in the way of the spanking.
Once the difficulty is handled, we can go right back to the spanking and accomplish the purpose of it.
"Additionally, there is no mention of the kind of circumstance that would justify such harsh punishment, or any suggestion that the punishment should fit the crime."
That's right, GH. This is about corporal punishment. If it's punishment, the goal is to change behavior. The question is whether the stimulus makes the person receiving it more likely or less likely to repeat the behavior. A punishment makes them less likely to repeat the behavior that resulted in this consequence.
I have said before that there are three levels of any activity that purports to be corporal punishment: reward, punishment, and sadism. Up until the spanking results in a reduced probability of recurrence, it's a reward. From then until it is sufficient to eliminate a recurrence, it's punishment. After that, it's sadism.
If it's going to be DD, then I think the sweet spot is the punishment level.
Thanks for your responses, Rich Person. Your point about the wisdom of having a safe word, in case of something like a medical emergency, is well taken. But I think any discussion of spankings being so severe that I would need a safe word would scare my wife away from DD. In fact, she is not spanking me at all these days because I have had serious medical issues, and I think she thinks I am too fragile for DD. I haven’t argued with her about it because she might be right, but I miss and crave that feeling of being firmly under her thumb. To be honest, that is why I have started participating here lately. Talking about DD partially scratches an itch.
DeleteI have a question about your distinction between “punishment” and “sadism”. If the disciplinarian spanks the person to the point of “surrender”, defined as the point where he or she “can’t take anymore”, then continues to spank a third again as long, would that not cross the line between “punishment” and boundary pushing sadomasochism? And at that point, is the goal just behaviour modification or an altered state of consciousness.
I have never been punished as harshly as described by that poster. The worst punishment I ever received from my wife consisted of about a dozen blows with a heavy strap swung with full force and accompanied by a vehement scolding about the behaviour that had angered her. The punishment was of short duration, but the combination of the strapping and her angry words had such a deep psychological impact that I have never since repeated that behaviour. With that in mind, I don’t know whether I could bear the kind of punishment described by that poster. I have fantasized about such punishment, but maybe I would wimp out and invoke the safe word, and then I would probably feel like a failure. I don’t know. The psychological aspects of DD and sadomasochism seem complicated to me.
GH
I've never felt the need for a safe word, because if something was wrong I'd simply tell her something was wrong. I don't have any doubt she would stop and address it. But, I could see it being necessary if the recipient had a habit of begging for a spanking to end even when there was nothing wrong other than the pain from the spanking.
DeleteI see sadism as being more about the giver's motivation than about the intensity or severity of the spanking. If the giver gets off on causing pain, then it seems to fit the classic definition of sadism. Though, I'm not using the word pejoratively. I suspect many disciplinary wives do come to enjoy the power associated with doling out the pain of a spanking. That probably does fit the classic definition of sadism, but I don't see anything wrong with it. In fact, I hope that Anne does find her power and the act of delivering a serious punishment arousing.
DeleteGH, the spam filter seems to like something about your posts in particular. I'm not sure why, but yours do get deleted and diverted to spam more than most.
DeleteIn answer to GH's query "Does anyone here actually have a safe word?", and "Rich Person's" commentary on various good motivation for same: Yes, my wife insists that I have a "pair of 'safety -signals'."
DeleteNow, my wife seems to evoke some kind of "collective dread and awe" among some members of our discussion group, apparently from her strong preferences for more intense implements like "synthetic rubber straps" and "glass filled" synthetic paddles and canes. (Yes, all of those can be quite intense and scary when used with maximum effort. But they can also be useful when a wife does not have the strength or joint-mobility (like my wife) of typical women, and thus want's to ensure "most effective training.")
I also tend to be rather "spontaneously vocal;" vocal beyond my conscious control. Also, sometimes I actually bite down and clench my teeth too strongly, trying to maintain control during more intense activities; I once cracked a molar from such clenching. Thus, my wife prefers that I wear some sort of "mouthpiece," to help prevent me from over-clenching and being overly-vocal. My wife has told me this reassures her, and also reduces her inhibitions from delivering the discipline or punishment I need and deserve. (Frankly, for myself, it also removes some of my own inhibitions and my attempts to "man-up" and "take-it;" allows me to be spontaneously "emotionally expressive" during corrections.)
Thus, to keep such situations safe, and ensure my wife can be certain there is not an unobserved medical problem, we use a pair of safety signals. The first signal is simply to indicate a that I would like to establish communications; have a brief conversation. The second signal is that the disciplinary relationship will immediately cease, not to resume for a predefined period of time (currently 90 days; a very strong disincentive to prevent misuse).
Either my wife or myself can use either signal, as we each feel appropriate.
We have both, on a few occasions these past twenty years, used the first signal to have serious and open conversation when something appears to be going wrong with some part the disciplinary relationship, not just during a discipline and punishment session.
Neither of us have ever felt the need to use the second, "nuclear" signal. Apparently never for my wife, because I strive to allow her the freedom and authority to do what she considers best for me and the relationship. Not myself, because I so value the overall relationship, no matter how intense it can sometimes be.
We have chosen to write-down this policy and these signals, primarily for any third party who might inadvertently mistake our relationship as some type of "non-consensual abuse."
(Sometimes I wonder if some of our members from other (non-US) countries might consider establishing such safe-signals solely for protection they afford in case a law enforcement agency might "misunderstand" or become "over-zealous" regarding a disciplinary relationship. After all, in many "commonwealth countries" like GB, Canada and Australia, and recently in some US-States, the "presumption" has shifted that ANY interpersonal "battery" or "evidence of bruising" (even consensual) is considered criminal, and the burden of proving otherwise is upon the participants. A safe-word agreement can provide strong evidence that either party could have instantly ended any "apparently" abusive behavior; could have instantly withdrawn consent.)
Donn writes: “After all, in many "commonwealth countries" like GB, Canada and Australia, and recently in some US-States, the "presumption" has shifted that ANY interpersonal "battery" or "evidence of bruising" (even consensual) is considered criminal, and the burden of proving otherwise is upon the participants.”
DeleteDonn, I have seen similar statements before, respecting what I infer to be evolving case law. Can you provide some citations or other evidence for this trend? It would be useful for everyone to have some sense of the scope and breadth of what you are describing, as well as some documentation for it
Alan
Donn, thanks for your detailed response on the question of safe words. What you say makes sense. I also understand why Dan doesn’t feel the need for a safe word. I have the feeling that having a safe word would diminish the DD vibe of a spanking relationship, but I can see it as necessary when there is an S & M vibe and the masochist’s limits are being explored and expanded. Donn, do you think it would be fair to say that what you and your wife are doing could be classified as S&M, as opposed to simple DD? By the way, I live in Canada, and I have heard what you said is true about Canadian law not recognizing “consent” as justification for doing something that could be classified as “battery”. The complicates things for people into any extreme form of DD.
DeleteGH
Dan, I agree with your point about sadism and your use of the word in a non-pejorative way. I like to use the term “sadomasochism” to emphasize the compatibility of the people in a relationship that incorporates S&M for the mutual benefit of both partners. I do think, however, that pure sadism, outside of a caring relationship with a masochist, could be dangerous. That’s why consent is important.
DeleteGH
I would not want to have a safe word. I didn't have one growing up, and I prefer that model. A safe word would be out of place. An emergency would be handled the same as in any situation. I say (or shout) what's wrong and, my partner, who I totally trust, would act accordingly.
DeleteIf I really wanted to get out of the punishment before she is finished, I could either physically stop it, or I could pretend to have a medical emergency, so the reality is no different than what I experienced as a teenager. There is no safe word, and it takes some level of cooperation on my part. Discipline is not compromised, and I see nothing less safe about spanking than other strenuous activities like contact sports, or conventional sex, for that matter.
GH, I take your point about how a safe word wouldn't work for you. It's something that should be evaluated for each situation, so I'm not stating any blanket rule.
DeleteAs for your question about my distinction between “punishment” and “sadism”, I think Dan had a good point that sadism is "more about the giver's motivation than about the intensity or severity of the spanking." Here, I'm using it to characterize the level or state of the activity. So, once the spanker has inflicted enough pain that the recipient is going to refrain from repeating the behavior, any additional pain (I think) is for the benefit of the spanker. It ceases to have a disciplinary meaning for the spankee. The message isn't about misbehavior, it's more about submission. At that point, the recipient is accepting the pain as a matter of submission, not discipline. IMO.
Also, I don't think that's necessarily bad or wrong. I think it's just an objective assessment.
As for Donn and his "mouthpiece", that's another issue. The recipient may be effectively gagged. In that case, I usually give them my key chain to hold. If they have to signal to me, they drop it. That's like the first safe word level Donn describes, where I free them to talk and we can discuss the problem. (I've also used the two-squeeze method to check in. That's where you give their hand two squeezes, and they respond with two squeezes if they are still go for more spanking.)
As Brett says, this is like a contact sport. There are risks, so it pays to take precautions. I think corporal punishment warrants learning about the risks and planning.
Hi GH,
DeleteI agree with just about everyone else that this was likely written by a male, if for no other reason than we probably have 50 male commenters for every female. However, if there has been one lesson I have learned from the internet, it is to trust information and not care so much about sources since you really never know who wrote what. And the information in the post seemed pretty much spot-on. By the way, while we all seem to idolize women on this blog, I personally think that probably the average guy who has a thing for wanting to be punished knows a lot more about it than does the average wife who disciplines. She lends a very valuable perspective, of course, but he often times has a lifelong kink that has resulted in years of thinking about it and countless hours of reading about it, while she probably hadn't even heard of adult DD until he told her about it.
You said: "and the advice is basically that women should spank their men the way he wants to be spanked." While I can see why you would say that, and of course you are basically correct, I would say that it was also aimed at those specific cases where the wife is finding it difficult to punish to the point of acceptance/surrender. I am not a spanking wife, but from my end of the paddle, it seems like it would be super difficult to spank the one I love to the point that they are truly dying for it to stop, so probably if I were in that position, I would do what most wives would, and I would stop when it seemed to be getting difficult for him to take. I would think I spanked really hard, but then we would talk about it later and both of us would be frustrated.
Regarding severity, first off, I would say that when I read something like this, it makes me think that we are talking about a punishment for something big, like maybe you are arguing and you raise your voice and call her a bitch or something like that, so something that involves a lot of disrespect and if left unchecked, could result in dire consequences. I don't see it as being something for leaving socks on the floor or anything minor. Like when my wife and I do check-ins, I would certainly not expect a punishment of this severity for anything coming from the check-in, since those are mostly discipline, not really so much punishment. Secondly, one thing that I really appreciated is that the focus was firmly on gauging the husband's response and basing everything on that, so in a way, it kind of self-adjusts.
While my wife certainly doesn't always take me to the point of surrender or acceptance, even when she punishes me, I do believe that it is good that she at least knows about it in case she ever really needs to make a big point. If I knew nothing about this and if I were a disciplinary wife, I would automatically think to stop when he is struggling, since that seems natural. To get a strong message through, the key would be to continue until he was no longer struggling and has surrendered, but probably I wouldn't even know that point would come, unless I read about it or had taken it that far before.
Regarding safe words, we had one in the beginning, just so she wouldn't be confused by me struggling too much and maybe sending messages that I wanted her to stop, when really I was just having a hard time accepting how painful it was. I never used a safe word, and I guess we haven't had one for a long time now since I am not even sure what it was! I think maybe it was "red." My wife knows me pretty well, so I think that generally she can read me accurately now. Having said that, I do think there is something to be said for having safe words to quickly communicate a medical emergency; we are not children anymore and we break easily and quickly and heal slowly and with more difficulty. Also, if necessary to safeguard yourself legally, then probably I would say better to have one if that is the case.
-ZM
GH: Sorry for the delay in answering your questions re SM v. DD; life has been particularly busy recently.
DeleteI certainly understand how having a "safe-word" (SW) might diminish the 'vibe" or "psychological perception of non-consensuality" in both partners; diminish the perception of ultimate female authority. In our own case, this does not seem to be a factor for either of us. Us both knowing that we each have safe-words (his & hers, with somewhat "nuclear penalties" for either's use) provides us with greater leeway. Having my own safe-word doesn't seem to interfere with my perception of her authority; if anything, she seems to feel more freedom to vigorously express herself, which she says is better for both of us -- better long-term results.
There have been so many varying discussions and definitions of exactly what SM and BDSM are (versus FLR's and DD), that using such terms without explaining your personal use can be more confusing than clarifying. For myself, I use the terms SM and BDSM to mean the primary motivation is erotic arousal and satisfaction, while DD is the "entire structure" (with CP being an important element) for improving behavior and relationships. DD might contribute, as a secondary result, in higher erotisism and sexual relations through improvements in the relationship, but that is only secondary.
Some members here may have noticed, through some of my past comments, that I rarely use the term "spanking," instead preferrering the more general term "corporal punishment" (CP). Some may have noticed that I have referenced a number of other methods of physical punishment. In our relationship, my wife has wide range of options of both discipline and punishment. Some of these might seem be "more associated" with SM and BDSM "scenes," but they are all very effective "aversives." (What she has in her "arsenal" is much more determined by what works at improving my behavior and attitude, and how much effort she has to expend to create the desired end results. Almost all of her techniques have foundations in "historical practices" as reflected in wide ranging "cultural practices," with additions of her own, personal psychological knowledge and perspectives.) None of her techniques or practices are in any way intended to be pleasant or arousing to me. (However, she has told me that she experiences eroticism from her ability to exercise practically unlimited authority over me, and ensuring that I always submit to her authority.)
Frankly, I'm glad that I am (from my own endeavors) a very well behaved and discipline husband and don't need a lot of training and corrections. At least I think so; my wife says I will forever be a "work in progress."
Brett: “I would not want to have a safe word. I didn't have one growing up, and I prefer that model. A safe word would be out of place. An emergency would be handled the same as in any situation. I say (or shout) what's wrong and, my partner, who I totally trust, would act accordingly.”
DeleteBrett, I didn’t have a safe word growing up either. The very idea of a safe word in the context of parental discipline would have seemed absurd. But the kind of DD promoted by Anon is much closer to BDSM than to anything I encountered growing up. I feared the pain and the embarrassment of parental spankings, but I never got spanked to a point remotely analogous to the state of “surrender” as described by Anon. Spankings didn’t have to be a long drawn-out ordeal to function as the deterrent they were intended to be. Now, one could argue that an adult male needs discipline to be extremely harsh because men are psychologically and physically tougher than boys. There is undoubtedly some truth to that. But I am skeptical that the goal of the kind of prolonged ordeal Anon promotes is necessary as a deterrent. I could be wrong because I can only speak for myself, but I think Anon (who is probably a man) has a psychological goal for DD that goes beyond the kind of deterrent effect parental spankings used to have. I have described spankings from my wife as mild to moderate compared to the ordeal Anon describes, but they are in line with the kind of corporal punishment I experienced growing up. And I think my wife is probably satisfied with the deterrent effect spankings and the threat of spankings have on me. (Maybe because I am wimpy about physical pain). Therefore, I think she would find Anon’s advice off-putting, as most wives probably would if their maternal instincts are at play in meting out DD. In any case, I am curious how you imagine the ideal spanking in adult DD, Brett. Would it be as harsh and prolonged as the one described by Anon, or more like traditional parental discipline you experienced growing up?
GH
T, sorry for the delayed response. Your comment kind of got lost in the thread while I was on vacation.
DeleteTravel brings out the worst in me, too. It's seldom that we travel together that I don't come back with at least one hard session owing.
GH: "Therefore, I think she would find Anon’s advice off-putting, as most wives probably would if their maternal instincts are at play in meting out DD."
DeleteAlthough I can understand how your wife would feel that way, I don't agree that "most wives" would if their maternal instincts are at play. The DWC was pitched at "maternal" style discipline, and the kind of spankings Aunt Kay recommended seem very in line with what Anonymous suggests, to the point that I wondered initially whether it might have been written by Aunt Kay or one of the people associated with the DWC content. I also think my wife is very capable these days of spanking me long after I started wishing it would end, and yet there is a definite female vibe to it for both her and me.
Good point, Dan. I shouldn’t generalize about “most” women based on my wife.
DeleteGH
GH: "In any case, I am curious how you imagine the ideal spanking in adult DD, Brett. Would it be as harsh and prolonged as the one described by Anon, or more like traditional parental discipline you experienced growing up?"
DeleteWhile my model for spanking is actual parental discipline, adult spanking can never really be the same unless it is some kind of non-consensual situation. I enjoy the fantasy of non-consensual spanking, but the reality is that I would not be involved with anything I don't want or need. To some extent, my wife's control can only be an illusion. I allow her that control, and she decides how to wield her judgment. What I want is to experience her judgment, and I give her the authority because I trust in her judgment.
Harshness is relative and subjective. Punishment growing up was very painful, but not a protracted torture. I don't require more severe than that, but maybe that would evolve through adult experience. I'm not a masochist, and I also can't be bullied, so there is no need to get crazy with the punishment. It just has to feel like punishment and be measured in line with the misbehavior or failure. In the end, her strongest influence is to convince me intellectually that I am wrong or need to change. Spanking to me is for humbling and drawing undivided attention to the issue. The actual deterrent effect of spanking is complex because it's still a consensual act. I must participate in deterring myself. There is no need for a safe word because it's not a game. If I can hold up to what she gives, I will. If not, I'll stop it by telling her to stop, and we can talk about how we want to proceed from there. Unlike parental discipline, if I really want it to stop, it stops. I don't understand how someone can take more than they can take.
GH wrote:
ReplyDelete>"I agree with Norton and Brett: my gut feeling is that this is a man pretending to be a woman offering advice to other women, and the advice is basically that women should spank their men the way he wants to be spanked"<
I'm in this camp as well. Having read hundreds of spanking stories (and written a few) over the years, this sounds like a male spanking fantasy.
And Norton wrote further up the thread:
>"I didn't feel that the "you will feel closer to him now than any other time" comment was necessary from a female perspective."<
This is my take as well. My wife and I both often feel very close to one another after a sound spanking. This is a real thing for many couples that spank. (Probably applies to M/F spanking couples as well).
By the way, for those of you who may not have not discovered them, there are a few articles by a professional female disciplinarian on the cane-iac spanking toy store web site. (Cane-iac is eventually closing, by the way - so if you want to do some shopping there, better sooner than later). Here is one of the articles:
https://www.cane-iac.com/TrainingYourManHarrietMarwod.asp
--al
--al writes:” Here is one of the articles: https://www.cane-iac.com/TrainingYourManHarrietMarwod.asp”
DeleteI want to second this solid recommendation of an article written by a woman who really understands the psychology of discipline and its more mechanical aspects.
I normally do not pay much attention to pro-produced articles, not because they are not useful, but because most pros approach spanking and discipline as a professional activity (and many, I am sure, are very good at what they do).
But Marwood, who has several other articles scattered around the internet, seems to have a personal connection to what she writes and how she writes it. I have no idea whether she is or has been a disciplinarian in her private life, but I would not be surprised if she is or has.
Alan
Seems like if a woman finds herself doing the very rare job of being a professional spanker, she would need to have a personal connection with spanking. Back when I was married, my wife and I agreed that because she no longer wanted to spank me, I should see a professional. My experience with professionals lasted about 5 years. They were both enthusiastic about providing discipline and maintenance spankings. When I asked to be held accountable, and they delivered, so it worked out. That said, now that I am in a real DWC relationship, it is much more satisfying than I could have imagined. I would never again have a serious relationship with a woman that was not into spanking.
DeleteI must defer to your personal experience with pros as I have had none. But there is every reason to think that your comments would resonate with many others.
DeleteIt would be interesting to know about the private life of the pro active in providing male discipline. My impression is that many of them, perhaps most, have had experience on both sides of the paddle.
With that as background and the often vast knowledge they develop about male discipline, a transition to real life disciplinarian would seem a natural response. But it might not be.
This topic is of personal interest to me, because my wife, never a pro of any kind , has considerable experience on both ends of the paddle--and avers she will not be on the receiving end again. Strangely enough I have never tried to talk her out of that decision
Alan
Hi Al, as I wrote in the lengthy comment above, I too expect that this was a male who wrote this, but I don't think it changes that it was pretty good advice. Especially, I think it is very good for wives to understand the whole point of surrender, and to use that as a gauge for how effective the spanking is, at least in cases of serious punishment. Probably, if a serious punishment stops before he reaches the point of surrender/acceptance, it wasn't even a serious punishment after all. And if she really wants to get the message through, she would be better off not even stopping immediately when she sees that he has surrendered, but rather treats that as a milestone on the path.
DeleteAlso, that article you linked to is really good!
-ZM
Two comments on her article. One is that I am not sure I agree with her about not giving warm-ups for real punishment, for reasons we talked about last week.
DeleteSecondly, right in the middle of her article, she had a section that pretty well rhymed with the comments we are talking about this week: "But the trick is, you must continue the punishment until he has demonstrated that he wants it to stop. And then he must (a) apologize and, most importantly, (b) articulate exactly what it was he did wrong and/or exactly what he needs to do going forward to satisfy you enough to stop spanking here and now....People with a higher threshold usually require that you punish them till they start acting contrite and/or plead for you stop. It is often not until this point that a man starts to release his defenses (or his cockiness) sufficiently to admit to himself that he really did do wrong and should admit to you that he knows what his faults were."
Anyway, great article! Thanks for point us to it.
-ZM
Alan wrote: “It would be interesting to know about the private life of the pro active in providing male discipline. My impression is that many of them, perhaps most, have had experience on both sides of the paddle.”
DeleteSome years ago I was befriended online by a professional spanker in a spanko chat room. (Anyone remember chatrooms?) Unfortunately, I was never able to meet her in person because she lived in Australia. She spanked both men and women, but mainly men, professionally. In her non-professional life, however, she was a bottom who loved M/F spanking. She told me she had a periodic craving for a really hard spanking, which she called “a thrashing”. She said that being a bottom in her personal life enabled her to be a successful top professionally because she understood her clients’ needs. Although she was almost exclusively a top professionally, she told me that she had one client who asked if he could occasionally pay to spank her. Accepting money to BE spanked was normally against her principles, but because she liked and trusted that guy, she was a paid bottom for him a couple of times per year. She told me most women who spank professionally start out as bottoms then discover that giving spankings can be an enjoyable way to make money.
GH
GH,
DeleteThanks. At least a few of the pro sites present the dominant as someone who has --or has had --an F/M relationship in private life. And those who say that well may have such a relationship. In fact I would be surprised if at least some pros did not extend spanking men into their private life.
But my impressions is that the experience that you describe is much closer to the norm. And I believe the experienced gained by being on the receiving end, can make one a better disciplinarian
Alan
I remember that comment, especially the 3/4ths rule. My wife was really struggling to understand my need around that time. I mentioned that ratio to my wife to help her give me longer spankings. The next time, her spanking was just as short as ever. I asked her about it and she said, "I did what you said to do! I spanked until I wanted to be done, and then I added extra." :)
ReplyDeleteYeah, that rule definitely still hinges on one's perspective, doesn't it?
DeleteBrett, I’m right with you on the safe word. I didn’t have one growing up and don’t feel the need to now. I would just communicate my issue to my wife verbally. As far as disciplinarians go, I saw two great ones, who were both thorough and knowledgeable and respected your limits. One sadly passed away and I wish she was still around, because I had that bond with her. My wife also seems to know when I’ve learned a lesson, as I start to sweat and move a bit more than usual. I assume that all of our wives know when we have been thoroughly punished. Some may choose to end the punishment early and some may carry it on a bit more, depending on the severity of the infraction.
DeleteT
I would like to comment on another aspect of the advice given by Anon: verbal intimidation.
ReplyDelete“Tell him that you are going to give him a long, hard spanking. Make sure that he understands just how painful it is going to be and that it will go on until he is truly sorry, plus some. Use phrases like “until you can’t sit for a week” to make it more intimidating. He needs to understand that it will be more than he can endure and that he will be pushed past the limit of what he can take, but he will have to take it anyway. This will help him to surrender to it later.”
The phrase “until you can’t sit for a week” caught my eye because my mother used to use that threat. For example, to alert us that she had given final warning about misbehaviour, she would say something like, “If I have to tell you again, you won’t be able to sit for a week.” I think that was a common phrase back then. When parents used that phrase, however, everyone understood it to be hyperbolic rather than literal. A spanking that caused pain for a week would have been considered abuse, even in those days when spanking was common. Moreover, my mother only ever used that phrase as a threat. Once I had crossed the limit of my mother’s patience, there were no more threats because threats would be redundant: the punishment would speak for itself. Anon, however, seems to suggest that “can’t sit for a week” should be taken almost literally as a guide to severity, and that it be used not as a warning but as verbal intimidation after sentence has been passed.
After I told my wife that my mother used to say “you won’t be able to sit for a week” as an admonishment to do as I was told “or else”, she started using it that way too. Anyway, I think the advice to use threats like that to heighten anticipation is evidence that the advice is coming from the perspective of a person who wants to be spanked that way.
GH
I too remember hearing (or more likely overhearing) "until you can't sit for a week," though I don't necessarily remember and specific times it was being directed at me. I agree that Anon was saying to use it as verbal intimidation after a spanking is a given, rather than as a warning, though I still took it to be mostly hyperbole. To me, it seemed it was just an additional way to break down some of his emotional barriers and to increase the psychological impact of the spanking. If the point is to bring him to surrender, anything that can be done to increase the psychological impact helps that surrender to come easier and more quickly, so at least in theory that should result in less actual physical severity.
Delete"Anyway, I think the advice to use threats like that to heighten anticipation is evidence that the advice is coming from the perspective of a person who wants to be spanked that way." - It seems that way to me as well, as do other parts of the comment. Having said that, I can also see that the advice is quite solid, so even though this comment was probably not written by an experienced disciplinary wife, it is probably just about what one might say in the unlikely event that they did write a comment here.
-ZM
ZM, I agree with you that the the advice stands on its own, whatever the gender of the writer. One can imagine a guy writing in role as a wife giving advice to other wives, then directing his own wife to look at that advice. I get the feeling that most of us have tried at some point to get our wives to spank longer and harder. To that end, Anon’s advice could be useful to DD couples.
DeleteGH
Hi GH,
Delete"One can imagine a guy writing in role as a wife giving advice to other wives, then directing his own wife to look at that advice." - Great insight! Actually, I can easily imagine this happening. That makes me wonder if at least sometimes - in the cases where guys know their wife reads the blog - the comments that are written aren't necessarily aimed at all the readers of the blog, but rather are meant especially for the guy's wife? Now that I think about it, it wouldn't even have to be where the wife reads the blog, but also in cases that she is aware of the blog's existence. Then a guy could say "I read __________. Somebody wrote____. They do ________." and it is all very approachable because you are talking about somebody else!
-ZM
"That makes me wonder if at least sometimes - in the cases where guys know their wife reads the blog - the comments that are written aren't necessarily aimed at all the readers of the blog, but rather are meant especially for the guy's wife?"
DeleteIt's possible. I admit that the prospect that Anne may read something on here is often in the back of my mind, including to some extent when it comes to topic selection.
“Tell him that you are going to give him a long, hard spanking. Make sure that he understands just how painful it is going to be and that it will go on until he is truly sorry, plus some. Use phrases like “until you can’t sit for a week” to make it more intimidating. He needs to understand that it will be more than he can endure and that he will be pushed past the limit of what he can take, but he will have to take it anyway."
DeleteThat was definitely a very psychologically powerful paragraph for me, too.
I agree that "won't be able to sit for a week" as hyperbolic but not off-the-charts so. Especially early on in our DD relationship, a good paddling would certainly leave me very bruised for close to a week. Today, I barely bruise at all, but I also sometimes find that the pain does seem to build and get deeper in the days following a spanking. It probably doesn't last a week but certainly can last for several days.
Now some comments on Anon’s comment (rather than presumed gender). 😊
ReplyDelete“Whether it is because the wife is not punishing correctly or because the husband isn’t able to surrender, it is clear that many men are not getting what they want and need so badly.” – I agree fully that for a punishment to send a clear message that will profoundly change behavior, it needs to be taken to the point of surrender/acceptance. And I assume that most disciplinary wives find it hard to keep going long enough to get to that point (if they even know that point exists), leaving both parties feeling a bit incomplete.
“Start by telling him what he did wrong and how it made you feel…shame is a critical part of punishment…the bitchier you are, the more he will love you for it later! By the time you are done he should feeling horrible about what he has done and be almost relieved to move onto the painful part just to be done with the lecture.” – I’m not very big on scolding, but this all seems accurate, including the important element of shame to break down psychological/emotional barriers. Knowing how my actions made my wife feel really gets to me. Also, I think many wives struggle achieving sufficient verbal strictness. While scolding isn’t my favorite topic, I can really relate to the wanting to get on with the spanking just to be done with the lecture.
“He needs to understand that it will be more than he can endure and that he will be pushed past the limit of what he can take, but he will have to take it anyway. This will help him to surrender to it later.” – I think this focus on the psychological aspects is some of the most useful and powerful advice given. In teaching (I’m not a teacher, but I was married to one) they called this creating “anticipatory set.” Spanking is at least as much psychological as it is physical.
All of the things about the actual punishment, implements to use, and so on are probably more useful to a very new spanker, though I did like the: “both of you should know that the taking it like a man won’t last. You will continue until he is reduced to feeling like a naughty boy, and then punish the naughty right out of him!” – it seems like what I need.
The core of the comment was everything about not stopping when he starts to struggle, but rather pushing through until he is no longer fighting it - no matter how hard it might be to do or watch – and then continuing at least until after stops fighting it, and preferably for quite a bit after that. That is certainly the part my wife struggles with, and I know if I were the one spanking, I would struggle probably even worse with it. The description of what this surrender process looks like is helpful. Also important to reaching surrender is not stopping because of redness, swelling, or even bruising, but rather expecting it and knowing that it is all temporary. Usually, it is how my bottom looks that ends the spanking, not how much remorse I am feeling. Consequently, a few hours later, all visible signs are gone and not much really changed.
While I don’t agree 100% with everything written (like the assumption of safeword, excessive focus on scolding and cornertime, etc.), I think overall it is very sound. I am seriously debating whether I want my wife to read this or not, since the thought of being pushed to this point seems scary, but also somehow necessary.
-ZM
ZM wrote: “not stopping when he starts to struggle, but rather pushing through until he is no longer fighting it - no matter how hard it might be to do or watch – and then continuing at least until after stops fighting it, and preferably for quite a bit after that. That is certainly the part my wife struggles with, and I know if I were the one spanking, I would probably struggle even worse with it. The description of what this surrender process looks like is helpful.”
DeleteThis discussion of surrender and the underlying concept is important to emphasize. A male who is surrendering to the spanking is physically and emotionally accepting what is happening and is ceasing any resistance to what is happening. In my experience, this is a critical moment not reached in every spanking and probably not reached unless the male has first emotionally accepted the need for what is happening to him.
The complete cessation of the natural struggle and resistance accompanying any serious spanking and the almost quiet acceptance of the spanking is strong evidence that a spanking has done its job.
As far as I understand it, Surrender is not the “subspace” some in BDSM talk about. In surrender, you are still very aware of the pain but no longer trying to avoid it. You have accepted it for as long as your wife wants to continue. But you are also at peace with the punishment you have received. There is no resentment
My wife has told me she has no doubt when it happens because I begin to slowly raise my bum to the paddle or brush. This is just instinctive for me, but the physical manifestations of the surrender are probably different for different guys. Couples should communicate closely on this issue so she will know when surrender happens (if it does)
One other point mentioned by several above spanking beyond the point of surrender--as a rule, I don’t think spanking beyond the surrender point matters much to the effectiveness of a spanking. I guess if a wife wanted to ensure the memory of that spanking lasted a long while, then additional spanking may be warranted. And the decision is really up to the disciplinarian.
But our experience is that once a spanking has reached the point of surrender, the benefits of that spanking have already been realized
Alan
Alan wrote: “As far as I understand it, Surrender is not the “subspace” some in BDSM talk about. In surrender, you are still very aware of the pain but no longer trying to avoid it. You have accepted it for as long as your wife wants to continue. But you are also at peace with the punishment you have received. There is no resentment.”
DeleteI don’t know, Alan. I wonder about that. I can’t say that I have experienced either “surrender” (as described by Anon) or “sub space”, although I do experience a deeply pleasurable feeling of submissiveness or devotion to my wife after a spanking, even one that is mild by the standards of Anon. Is “surrender” something different than that? My understanding of “sub space” is that it is similar to that feeling of devotion I have experienced, except heightened by a sort of hormonal high brought on by an experience of prolonged, carefully controlled physical duress at the hands of the dominant. Anon advises the disciplinarian to keep spanking beyond the point of surrender. Why? I think you are probably right that the disciplinary benefits of a spanking would be achieved by the point of surrender, so the advice to take it farther would seem to indicate a goal that goes beyond discipline into a deeper exploration of the psychological effects of domination and submission. If it is true that physical duress can bring about an altered state of consciousness (sub space), it seems likely that the kind of spanking described by Anon would do that.
GH
GH,
DeleteI know what surrender is, and for me, it is a point where the endorphins are flowing, but more importantly, you stop holding onto the illusion of control that so many have and stop fighting it because, deep down, you have given up struggling against holding back your emotions.
That is a wonderful feeling of freedom, deep relaxation, and well-being. Perhaps this is similar to what subs experience during BDSM activities. I simply don't know for sure, but my impression is that sub-drop is a kind of transcendent experience whereas what I experience is very grounded in the here and now.
Alan
From what I have read, sub space is basically when the sub is floating in a sea of endorphins, and I think it has everything to do with the pain. On the other hand, what Anon and Alan describe, which is something similar to what I and other contributors over the years have experienced sometimes (for me it also includes finding that I am unconsciously raising my bottom for the paddle, strap, or whatever), is not so much a result of lots of pain (the pain is more a supporting actor), but rather is more a psychological surrender to the punishment itself, recognizing that it was deserved, and kind of a sense of rightness or justice. I don't think the surrender we are describing here would be likely to happen in a BDSM play, because the whole guilt element is missing. On the other hand, sub-space sounds EXACTLY like what one of our longtime commenters (I think Joe or Joe2? if I remember correctly) describes for when his wife gave him stress-relief spankings.
DeleteAs far as why spank past the point of surrender, I am not sure why Anon suggested that, but I have also seen the same "rule" several other places. I am not sure how I feel about it, particularly since I haven't had it happen to me. For the most part, I think I agree with what Alan wrote: "...as a rule, I don’t think spanking beyond the surrender point matters much to the effectiveness of a spanking. I guess if a wife wanted to ensure the memory of that spanking lasted a long while, then additional spanking may be warranted." I too think that it wouldn't change the effectiveness much. However, one thought I did have was that it is possible that when the one being spanked has reached this point of surrender, they might be much more open to hearing what their wife has to say, since their defenses are completely down. One of the most stunning discoveries I have had about DD is that it can change not only my behavior, but even my mindset or how I think about something. I guess to me, it seems possible that maybe if my wife were to get me to that point of full surrender, and then keep on spanking, punctuating the spanks with whatever message she was trying to get through to me, it might really penetrate my thick skull. But of course, maybe it doesn't work that way either. I can't say, because I simply haven't experienced that.
By the way, I too have felt the deep sense of submissiveness or devotion to my wife after a spanking (even relatively mild ones), so I think that is pretty common. Also, in general, I would say I become more and more submissive as a spanking happens.
-ZM
ZM: "While scolding isn’t my favorite topic, I can really relate to the wanting to get on with the spanking just to be done with the lecture."
DeleteSame here.
“He needs to understand that it will be more than he can endure and that he will be pushed past the limit of what he can take, but he will have to take it anyway. This will help him to surrender to it later.”
While I too generally don't like "lecturing" per se, I do wish sometimes that Anne did more verbalizing about what I am in for during that anticipation phase in which she's told me I have a spanking coming but hasn't yet ordered me to go get ready. All those iconic spanking phrases like "you aren't going to sit comfortably for a week" definitely put me into a state of heightened anxiety about what is coming.
I don't think I have reached a state of surrender as Alan describes it. For me, the endorphins don't really kick in until after the spanking is over. While it's happening, I'm almost either (a) hating every minute of it and wishing it would end, or (b) my bottom has gotten numb and I'm not feeling the swats nearly as much.
DeleteSurrender is a powerful goal for me though, and one that I associate closely with crying. I think that one reason I haven't cried is that I have not really fully surrendered to the spanking and to the embarrassment that tears would bring. There's still that small amount of control over the situation that I'm exerting by not letting the tears come.
I do see one point in continuing to spank beyond the point of either surrender or numbness -- if the wife wants to make sure he continues to feel it for several days after the spanking.
DeleteDan wrote "hating every minute of it and wishing it would end". I can honestly say I have never been in that position, even the one time my limits were pushed I stayed in the zone/position. Maybe my endorphins kick in earlier than yours Dan. That does though nicely bring the discussion full circle by asking if the old adage "the spanking doesn't start until the spankee wants it to stop" is the line where "real discipline spankings" begin. Cheers GLM.
DeleteAlan: “I know what surrender is, and for me, it is a point where the endorphins are flowing, but more importantly, you stop holding onto the illusion of control that so many have and stop fighting it because, deep down, you have given up struggling against holding back your emotions.”
DeleteAlan, I think that is exactly what people in the BDSM community mean by “sub space”, i.e. an altered state of consciousness resulting from endorphins flooding the brain.
“That is a wonderful feeling of freedom, deep relaxation, and well-being.”
I think that’s it. It’s like taking a mood altering drug.
“Perhaps this is similar to what subs experience during BDSM activities. I simply don't know for sure, but my impression is that sub-drop is a kind of transcendent experience whereas what I experience is very grounded in the here and now.”
Alan, when people take psychoactive drugs, the drugs affect individuals in different ways, depending perhaps on prior experiences, expectations, and personality differences. One person might describe their experience as “transcendent” and another as more deeply “grounded in the here and now.” Whether you frame spanking as punishment for misbehaviour or as a purely erotic power exchange would undoubtedly shape your experience, though the neuro-chemical process would be the same.
Anon sells the benefit of spanking harshly to other women this way: “And now finally the punishment will be over. He will probably be somewhat physically and emotionally drained. It is very important to be close to him and to hold on to him. If you are like me, you will feel closer to him now than at any other time so enjoy the time.”
This sounds like a description of the effect on a couple of taking MDMA (Ecstasy, “the love drug”). I think for sure spanking can have this effect on the recipient. That’s why I suspect the advice may be coming from the perspective of a would-be recipient. When the punishment goes beyond our comfort zone, there is definitely a spike in endorphins. But I wonder whether there could be a similar spike in endorphins if a wife pushes herself way beyond HER comfort zone in physically hurting the person she loves. Maybe there is potentially some altered state of consciousness in the spanker as well as the spankee? It wouldn’t surprise me.
GH
Dan: “Surrender is a powerful goal for me though, and one that I associate closely with crying. I think that one reason I haven't cried is that I have not really fully surrendered to the spanking and to the embarrassment that tears would bring. There's still that small amount of control over the situation that I'm exerting by not letting the tears come.”
DeleteDan, I agree that crying would be a powerful experience of surrender. That’s why I fantasize about being spanked until I am sobbing, though I never reach that point in reality. But I have a feeling that you are more stoic than I am, so I could probably be broken down more easily than you. The fact is that I am so sensitive to the psychological aspects of discipline (embarrassment, shame, disempowerment), that I am well on the way to a kind of surrender before the spanking even starts. When I am bent over the end of the bed with my bottom bared, waiting for my wife to punish me, I always feel like a shy, vulnerable 14-year-old. Even though my wife has seen me naked many times, having my bottom bared for punishment while my wife is fully clothed never ceases to shame me. Then, when the spanking begins, I give myself fully to the experience, letting go of my masculine pride and vocalizing shamelessly (or shamefully?) from the first smack. I would be really embarrassed if anyone heard the way I vocalize during a spanking, but I feel as though it would be disrespectful to my wife to take it stoically, which would be exerting a kind of control, as you put it. It’s probably my fault that my wife has never spanked me as severely as I fantasize. She doesn’t have to. Anon’s advice assumes that the man is going to be naturally “cocky”, and that a wife will have to spank her husband long and hard to strip away his stubborn male pride. It’s like a battle of wills that the woman can only win by forcing herself to be cruel. I guess I don’t put up a battle because my male pride is vanquished as soon I assume the position for a spanking.
GH
ZM: “By the way, I too have felt the deep sense of submissiveness or devotion to my wife after a spanking (even relatively mild ones), so I think that is pretty common.”
DeleteZM, don’t you think that feeling of submissiveness and devotion towards our wives is one of the main goals of DD? I wonder how many couples introduce DD or FLR into the marriage when sexual boredom has started to be a problem, then the wife discovers that, no matter the effects of aging, she can be her husband’s goddess of love forever by disciplining him the way he craves?
GH
The objection I have to this is that we seem to always have a stream of commenters (over the years) who want to say "DD is just rebranded BDSM" or want to say "to me spanking is sexual, so therefore all of you are doing this only to fulfill a spanking fetish." The problem with both of these is that they are half-truths, making them worse than outright lies in most regards.
DeleteAlmost every practice employed in DD also has a BDSM corollary. Even things like grounding are similar in a way to being tied up, because you lose freedom of movement. We mostly talk about spanking on this blog, because it is the most common punishment employed in DD relationships, and of course spanking (in many forms) is probably the most common activity in BDSM. However, you could take almost any BDSM activity and use it as a punishment in DD, probably with good effect in most cases.
The key differentiator between DD and BDSM is not the things we do, but rather the reason(s) we do them. To me, it is DD when it is a real punishment for real reasons. By this I mean that the punishments need to be things that even if there is an underlying kink (and there often is), they are sufficiently unpleasant to experience that they feel punishing at the time they happen, and also it needs to be for real reasons, which I would define as things that matter to both people and that at least the wife (ideally both partners) would like to change and hopes to change through DD.
My wife and I also have done a fair amount of roleplay and for that matter BDSM activities. From my experience, I can say that the moment it is for a real reason - especially if it is something I feel guilt about - it is entirely different than experiencing exactly the same thing if it is for play or to satisfy a fetish.
With regard to surrender, I have no doubt (nor probably do Alan and others) that endorphins play a role in setting the stage. But I think almost any discussion of DD that focuses on the physiological and de-emphasizes the psychological is misguided. DD is mostly psychological, and physiological things are only used to speed along the process. Let's say that the spanking described by Anon is replaced with grounding or time out. The stages will be surprisingly similar, even though not a single bottom was whacked. Initially, the one being punished (grounded or in time-out) will feel like they are being wrongly punished, so they will resist: "you can ground me, but you can't stop me from dreaming" or whatever. Over time, they will reach a point of surrender, where they will realize that they did cross the line, and they become not only accepting of punishment, but almost thankful that they were pushed back into bounds, and afterwards, they might have a warm glow from the fact that someone loved them enough and cared enough for them to punish them. The primary difference is that this process takes weeks instead of minutes.
Pain can make the process go quickly, but endorphins actually help a lot by numbing the pain enough (and even providing a strange comforting pleasurable feel) that the pain isn't so distracting that thinking about the reason for the punishment is impossible.
I don't know if the wife would experience endorphins by pushing beyond her comfort zone (I simply don't know enough about physiology), but whether due to endorphins or something else, I could easily see her also entering a zone of sorts, where hopefully she is still thinking clearly and is still 100% in the moment, but also where she is not completely herself.
And Dan said: "Surrender is a powerful goal for me though, and one that I associate closely with crying." - I too associate the two a lot, probably driven by me having a big thing for tears. However, I am kind of glad that Anon did not directly equate them: "Note that you are looking for surrender, and not necessarily tears, since some men may cry and others will not." I do think that while they are closely tied, they are certainly not one and the same.
-ZM
Quick comment re the term "sub drop."
DeleteI did spend some time around the BDSM "Club Scene" many, many years ago, and also attended quite a few "educational munches." In those contexts, "sub drop" was always used to refer the "almost depressive state" the occurs in the recipient ("sub") after a session has ended; after the intensity has ended, and progressed into "nothingness." My understanding is that it, despite some lingering endorphins, can be very unpleasant, somewhat like "withdrawal" from a pleasurable drug. Thus, "sub drop" is a major reason that closeness and comforting ("aftercare") is so important after a serious punishment.
I know that "Caged Lion" probably has the most experience in our group, observing and participating (in his earlier life) in such more intense "BDSM Scenes." Maybe he could clarify and expand upon my own observations?
ZM: "The key differentiator between DD and BDSM is not the things we do, but rather the reason(s) we do them."
DeletePerfectly put.
"Pain can make the process go quickly, but endorphins actually help a lot by numbing the pain enough (and even providing a strange comforting pleasurable feel) that the pain isn't so distracting that thinking about the reason for the punishment is impossible.
Your comment and Alan's makes me wonder if this may be an area where I am wired a little different. I have never hit a point where there is a "comforting pleasurable feel" to a disciplinary/punishment spanking (I don't really distinguish between the two, since Anne's spanking style is so binary). It's either (a) miserable and thoroughly uncomfortable, (b) uncomfortable but fairly bearable because the instrument being used isn't as effective as others, or (c) my butt has gone number and it's not that uncomfortable anymore because I can't feel it as much. But, it never gets to a point that anything about it feels pleasureable.
GH, it's hard for me to say whether I'm more stoic than you. Could be. I do tend toward accepting what's coming, and I don't really go into the "14 year-old boy" thing you describe. For me, that kind of vulnerability is more of an *after* spanking thing.
DeleteRegarding the "battle of wills" thing, the real irony is that there isn't much of an intentional battle at all. Most men here seem to say they *want* stricter, more sever discipline, so she isn't being "cruel" by giving him what he needs and thinks he wants. If anything, the battle of will seems to be between the man and his own ego.
ZM, I am not suggesting that DD is reducible to BDSM. My own knowledge of BDSM is second hand, from reading about it and talking about it with people I have met online at spanking websites. The spankings I have had from my own wife have been strictly DD because she only does it for real disciplinary purposes, and her disciplinary authority exists 24/7, not in some limited role play. But, of course, her purely pragmatic, behaviourist embrace of DD interacts with my masochistic kinks in interesting ways. You are right that any BDSM activity could be repurposed for disciplinary purposes. Theoretically, spanking would be a most effective deterrent to bad behaviour if the person didn’t want to be spanked at all (i.e, had no kink), but that’s hard to investigate empirically since it seems that men in DD relationships all want to be spanked, and most of us have tried to get our wives to spank us harder, i.e. more punitively.
DeleteThere is an empirical claim underlying Anon’s advice that seems common sensical but may not, in fact, be empirically supported. The claim is that a spanking has to be extremely painful and drawn out in order to bring about behavioural change in a man. According to that theory, fear of pain, and maybe humiliation, is the main source of the wife’s power in a DD relationship. I question that because I don’t fear the pain of my wife’s punishments, but I feel strongly motivated to avoid the shame of displeasing her to the point that she spanks me. Therefore, if she couples a command with the warning “or you won’t be able to sit down for a week,” I always obey her command. Always. I know that the threat is hyperbole, so it isn’t really fear that motivates me, but something motivates me. Respect for her authority perhaps? A desire not to disappoint her? I can imagine my wife comparing notes with Anon. Anon would say, “Spankings need to be brutally harsh if you want to modify your husband’s behaviour.” My wife would probably respond that she doesn’t have to spank me that hard to get behavioural results…and that a mere threat has power.
In any case, ZM, I agree totally that it is misguided to focus on the physiological aspects of DD to the exclusion of psychological factors. I am a case study in psychological factors. Lol. Speaking of psychological factors, my wife’s use of hyperbolic threats have power without her even having to follow through. A similar thing she does is to threaten to spank me in circumstances that will reveal the D/s nature of our relationship to other people, like KOJ’s story a couple weeks ago about being taken by his wife to an upstairs room for a loud, disciplinary spanking at a party where other guests would overhear. I don’t believe that my wife would really do that, but the threat keeps me on my toes as surely as it would if I knew the threat was sincere. I wonder whether Anon would recommend humiliating one’s husband by following through on such threats to heighten the shaming aspect of DD? If spanking is more effective when the pain is more intense, would the same logic not apply to embarrassment?
GH
Hi GH,
DeleteI wasn't meaning to imply that you are overly equating DD to BDSM or reducing DD entirely to BDSM. Rather, I was trying (perhaps poorly) to explain why I have probably a bit too much sensitivity whenever BDSM is brought into the conversation. Because of this, perhaps what is said is fine, but it then unfairly gets stuck with the several years of accumulated baggage of other less reasonable things that people have said over the years about BDSM and DD. So, sorry if I was painting with too broad a brush.
"The claim is that a spanking has to be extremely painful and drawn out in order to bring about behavioural change in a man." - I don't know that it was written that directly, but I can see that it may have been implied, if for no other reason than Anon dared to use the very problematic "real" word! I personally don't believe that spankings have to be extremely painful and drawn out in order to bring about behavioral change. In fact, my wife has successfully changed my behavior on quite a few things, using things ranging from very hard, long punishments, short and relatively light punishments but on a regular schedule (weekly check-ins), and even just threatened spankings that resulted in behavior change without there being any actual spankings along the way.
I actually am with you on everything that you said on in the second paragraph as far as my DD relationship goes. I don't fear the pain of my wife's punishments (though I do try to avoid them), I want to avoid the shame of displeasing her (and even more so I don't want to displease or disappoint her because I love her), I respect her, I recognize hyperbole when it is used, etc. The part I don't agree with is that I think you are reading a whole lot into Anon's comment that I simply don't see. You said: "I can imagine my wife comparing notes with Anon. Anon would say, 'Spankings need to be brutally harsh if you want to modify your husband’s behaviour.' My wife would probably respond that she doesn’t have to spank me that hard to get behavioural results…and that a mere threat has power." - I of course don't know what you're wife would say, and I don't know what Anon would say, but even after re-reading this weeks topic multiple times, I remain unconvinced that Anon was trying to say anything like "Spankings need to be brutally harsh if you want to modify your husband’s behaviour." I just don't see anything to support that. What I do think is that Anon was saying that there are those that need to be taken to the point of surrender, and that doing it will require a spanking to be longer than the wife probably would normally think adequate.
"I wonder whether Anon would recommend humiliating one’s husband by following through on such threats to heighten the shaming aspect of DD?" - That is the one disadvantage of discussing an anonymous comment, because we can't really ask Anon what they mean or how that extends to other situations, like the great questions you asked about embarrassment! But since we can't, I will just write what I think. As far as following through on such threats to heighten the shaming aspect of DD, I think it would totally depend on the husband, how he felt about being embarrassed, and obviously also the situation/friends present. There is a part of me that says "don't make threats that you aren't willing to follow through with," but the whole hyperbole thing kind of messes that up, since of course those threats are made and taken as being exaggerated.
"If spanking is more effective when the pain is more intense, would the same logic not apply to embarrassment?" - I think it can work that way, but it totally depends on the husband and how he is wired. For me, I think it is absolutely true, but probably for some others it would be completely untrue, and likely most people are somewhere in between.
Anyway, interesting questions and thought provoking dialogue!
-ZM
DeleteAnd Dan, I probably worded the endorphin thing badly, but I don't know that I can do any better. "Strange comforting pleasurable feel" doesn't seem all that correct as I re-read it, so let me try to explain it more, at the risk of just further muddying the waters! As far as my bottom goes, it becomes less painful as the spanking progresses. At least some of that (perhaps all) is due to numbing, but I always assumed that endorphins were at least a part of the mechanism that was providing that numbing relief. But just to be clear, during the entire duration of the spanking, my bottom never gets to the point of a comforting pleasurable feel. Rather, that feeling comes from kind of a peace or sense of wellbeing that settles in, even as my bottom is still saying it would be great if the spanking stops.
-ZM
Got it. You also later described it as a "psychological surrender to the punishment itself, recognizing that it was deserved, and kind of a sense of rightness or justice." That I totally get and have experienced many times. Honestly, I'm generally pretty accepting that it is deserved before it starts, but sometimes when I'm manning up and feeling the resistance I consciously remind myself that it *is* deserved and that I need to just give in and accept it.
DeleteZM, you could be right that I have read too much into Anon’s advice. Maybe I am overly sensitive because I have never experienced that kind of spanking, so it makes me feel like a bit of an outsider. Part of me would like to experience the kind of spanking that would make me truly fear my wife because I eroticize fear in my fantasies, but I’m not sure I would want my wife to learn from Anon. I also fantasize about being spanked in circumstances where people can see or hear it, but I would probably die of embarrassment if my wife actually did that. Then again, my gut feeling is that if my wife insisted on doing that, I would let her. The psychology of DD is complicated. Anyway, thanks for a great discussion.
DeleteGH
Zm, I’m right with you on the endorphin release. There have been times when being punished that after a while, I end up in a sub space so to speak. I can handle the strapping and end up where it isn’t as painful as when started. This has happened to me on multiple occasions. I cannot explain why it happens at some times and not others. As far as what Anon described, to me it feels over indulged. I don’t think my wife would ever get to the point of beating me into surrender mode. She’s not built like that and as far as embarrassment goes, we keep our DD a private affair. I’ve only been embarrassed a few times and they were around people we do not know. I also don’t think spankings need to be long and drawn out. I’ve had numerous ones that were short and to the point. A memorable one was with the belt that kept catching the sit spot and thighs . The lesson was learned quickly and I was better behaved. As far as growing up, the phrase my Mother used were, I’m gonna tan your bottom when we get home, you won’t sit for a week when I’m done with you. Your
Deletecruising for a bruising with the paddle. The famous was in front of others. Do you want a spanking? We would promptly turn beat red. As far as consent below, I’m surprised it’s an issue or topic at all. Why would anyone in a consenting adult DD relationship, end up in any kind of trouble with the law or law enforcement. It’s a mute topic. Everything done in our home is consensual and like I’ve stated before, I wish my wife would punish me much more often than she does. I need it and deserve it. I also feel it brings us much closer to each other afterwards.
T
T, your phrase “short and to the point” describes my wife’s style, especially when she uses the strap, which hurts terribly. It’s extremely humbling that I fantasize about long, drawn out spankings, but she can make me want it to stop in a minute flat.
DeleteYou mentioned that in addition to “you won’t sit for a week”, your mother sometimes said “I’m going to tan your bottom when we get home.” My parents used that same phrase, or more precisely “tan your backside.” The fact that stock phrases about spanking were so widespread shows how deeply ingrained corporal punishment was in the culture back then. The embarrassing rhetorical question “Do you want a spanking?” in front of other people was common too, as was “Just wait until we get home, young man.” Everyone knew what that meant. I think it was common to hear public spanking warnings back then because that kind of strict discipline was considered to be an aspect of responsible parenting. Another rhetorical question my mother would use if my siblings and I were squabbling or otherwise acting up in the car was, “Do I have to stop the car?” That was clearly understood to be a warning that a roadside spanking was possible. Actually, my wife has threatened roadside spankings too, now that I think about it.
GH
I asked Donn in a thread far above to provide some evidence or documentation for the following statements he wrote, which I believe represent dangerous and misleading misinformation to people involved in consensual adult spanking, The statement included the following:
ReplyDelete“After all, in many "commonwealth countries" like GB, Canada and Australia, and recently in some US-States, the "presumption" has shifted that ANY interpersonal "battery" or "evidence of bruising" (even consensual) is considered criminal, and the burden of proving otherwise is upon the participants.”
Since he chose not to respond, I researched the accuracy and truthfulness of the statement myself, using an AI source; it is reprinted below: I am not trying to embarrass Donn or anyone; that is not my intention in any way. But I believe we must stop the unending flow of misinformation, particularly when it appears on blogs like Dan’s, which have become the de facto “ blog of record” as far as female-led Dd is the topic.
Is Donn’s statement accurate? No, the statement is not accurate. In many commonwealth countries such as the UK, Canada, Australia, and some US states, interpersonal battery or evidence of bruising is not considered criminal merely based on the presence of these factors alone.
While the presence of bruising or injury may be considered in determining whether a crime has been committed, the burden of proof remains on the prosecution to demonstrate that a crime has occurred beyond a reasonable doubt and that the accused is responsible.
Additionally, in cases of consensual activity, the presence of bruising or injury does not necessarily imply criminal behavior as long as there is a clear demonstration of consent between the parties involved. In short, the statement oversimplifies the complex legal and social factors involved in determining criminal liability for interpersonal violence.
I invite anyone who disagrees with this conclusion or wishes to debate any point made to please do so. I do not hold myself out as an expert of any kind on this topic. But I strongly believe that we must stop letting misinformation go without challenging it.
Alan
I looked into this a few years ago after KD Pierre mentioned some issues with the legality of BDSM in certain states. There were a surprising number of reported cases in which spanking, bondage, and other activities resulted in criminal convictions. But, when you dig into the facts most--but not all--involve cases in which there were factual disputes between either the existence of consent or whether the defendants' acts exceeded the bounds of the consent. Many of the fact patterns seemed to involve relationships gone bad.
DeleteThe other significant legal issue is that some state statutes do not recognize consent as a defense to batter charges if the alleged battery included "great bodily harm" and similarly worded degrees of harm. The problem comes down to how that is defined, with the possibility that an overly-zealous prosecutor may consider bruising to fit the definition sufficiently remove consent as a defense.
Here is a law review article that is pretty comprehensive on the subject, but it's US law only:
https://repository.uchastings.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1219&context=hwlj
Here is a wikipedia article with a summary of US and several non-US jurisdictions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_BDSM
My take on this has always been that there is a theoretical legal risk, but it's very context-specific. Some of the older cases, particularly the most well known one, People vs. Samuels, definitely ruled out consent as a defense to assault, on the grounds that anyone would consent to such things must have mental issues that would preclude effective consent. BUT, those cases are a half-century old. I see the risk of prosecution or civil suits as being pretty low in the US, and far more likely to arise in a BDSM context between people who either (a) don't know each other well, or (b) have an established relationship but there is a falling out and one later claims lack of consent. And, the risk goes up for those involved in things that many of us would consider extreme, like choking or knife/gun play.
Dan Wrote: My take on this has always been that there is a theoretical legal risk, but it's very context-specific. Some of the older cases, …. are a half-century old. I see the risk of prosecution or civil suits as being pretty low in the US…”
DeleteDan, this adds considerably to the context necessary to understand what risk, if any, a consensual couple faces in participating in DD. I would add to what you said that US law, in particular, is often very discretionary as to what a District Attorney or other public prosecutor chooses to charge and pursue. Most prosecutors are overwhelmed by the charging decisions they must make now (hence so much plea bargaining). It would be a near-vanishing chance that one is going after a consensual couple absent the rarest circumstances.
I think that's probably true, though there are no shortage of right-wing fundamentalist prosecutors in certain states. But, I do think that if you are in a committed, long-term relationship and discipline doesn't exceed traditional spankings with common spanking implements, the odds are pretty low. Though, the paranoid side of me says it wouldn't be a bad thing to have some emails and texts going back and forth that verify the consensual nature of the activities. And, there obviously is a bit of a Catch-22 for those of us who have a strong attraction to being on the receiving end of a "consensual non-consent" kind of dynamic. On the one hand, we want something that feels like it's going to happen whether we want it to or not, yet from a legal perspective establishing consent can--in these very isolated cases where this stuff has been prosecuted--be very important. For me, it emphasizes the important part "domestic" plays in "domestic discipline." My wife knows exactly what it is I've consented to, and so do I. I would *never* recommend "real" discipline like what was described in this post be engaged in between people who don't know each other well and/or haven't made the details of the consent excruciatingly clear.
DeleteI totally agree, and that underscores the importance of knowing and communicating with your partner. I believe DD involving spanking really belongs in a long-term committed relationship. Maybe that makes me a dinosaur today, but I can't imagine female led DD ( or any DD) really working outside those bounds.
DeleteAnd yes, sadly, you are right about the existence of radical right-wing prosecutors in certain states -and that is likely to worsen before it gets better. Ultimately however, Darwin wins that one --but in the meantime, think blue!
Alan
Interesting legal perspectives on consent. I has heard that consent might not exonerate a person from a charge of battery where I live, in Canada, but I have no legal expertise. Dan, I wonder whether right wing prosecutors would necessarily be more of a threat than left wing ones. I ask because a certain compatriot of mine who has a spanko blog that delves into extreme BDSM is also a right wing MAGA bootlicker politically.
DeleteGH
Hi Alan:
DeleteI was not ignoring your inquiries as to some of the sources of my commentary on evolution of enforcement actions re domestic abuse and possible misperceptions of DD as same.
It's simply that I have been incredibly busy these past 3.5 months, since my wife was hospitalized for over a month starting New Years Eve (2022). I have been AWOL on many of these discussions, even a couple that Dan apparently took inspiration for from some of my previous comments and observations.
Very briefly, I was mostly referring (when I said "law enforcement agencies") to the most common responders and investigators: Police Patrol Persons. (Not, prosecutors, judges and particularly NOT "appellate courts" that promulgate what you referred to as "case law," but in the profession are usually know as "published opinions" (which are very, VERY sparse in this area in question).
I have given a cursory read to your comments, analysis and conclusions, and agree with much of it, but do questions some conclusions as possibly being overbroad.
I very much want to continue our discussion, but I simply do not have the time this weekend, and Dan is about to publish the new week's new discussion topic. When I have more time, I'll append more information to the end of this week's discussion. Maybe then we can both continue here, at our mutual convenience.
Hi Donn,
DeleteI hope your wife is recovering, and I can say we have been through it and understand the stress that protracted illness brings can produce. I also hope we can continue the discussion in a subsequent forum convenient to both of us; It is important for practitioners to understand the legal environment they are confronting and, in particular, to be able to gauge possible practical risks, if any, from adult consensual spanking . It is is my view that the practical empirical risk is near NIL, but happy to discuss that premise.
Alan
I think a husband who bruises his wife's butt in consensual DD is much more likely to get arrested than a wife who bruises her husband -- because there is an assumption that the spanked husband has the physical strength to refuse (and thus is exhibiting consent) while the spanked wife likely does not have the physical strength to refuse (and thus does not have a way of verifying her consent other than verbal, which can be coerced).
DeleteKOJ
We never used a safe word. To me they were not appropriate for our "maternal discipline." After all, a mother would never allow a son a safe word. If I felt sick, I could say so and she would stop.
ReplyDeleteMy spankings were seldom as severe as described in the post, but they did get that far for repeat behavior. My wife strongly believed that repeated incidents meant the punishment needed to be more severe.
She did like to see "surrender" for most punishments -- that is, an end to struggling and taking it as quietly as possible. She often would rake me there without bruises that would last a week.
She also was very big on scolding, like the poster. And not just scolding but asking questions she expected answers to. Sometimes it was hard to think through the pain, but she expected answers anyway.
KOJ