"Obedience of the law is demanded; not asked as a favor.” - Theodore Roosevelt
Hello all. Welcome back to the Disciplinary Couple’s Club. Our weekly gathering of men and women who are, or would like to be, in a Domestic Discipline relationship.
First off – Happy Halloween! My second favorite holiday of the year!
And, definitely the sexiest. Though, we’re a little too tame for X-rated Halloween parties. Well, might or might not be too tame. No one has invited us to such a party, so it’s hard to know.
Last week was one of those where the conversation started with a particular topic, then went off in a very different direction. Which is absolutely fine. It’s great that the group has enough cohesion and enough good contributors that conversations can develop organically.
In this case, the conversation started with the topic of reporting. The conversations were helpful. It made me think about taking up my journaling practice again, but perhaps in a different format. I don’t know why, but some journals and planners just seem to work better for me on paper. I really can’t articulate why. I have one journaling app that I like a lot for day-to-day entries and also for things that I might want to be able to search later. You can also add pictures to entries, which is great for journaling about things like travel and vacations. Yet, for some reason, I don’t like it for putting down deep or very personal thoughts. Same with the electronic DD Journal I’ve kept sporadically. Some thoughts just seem to like paper. So, I may explore something like a dedicated journal that I can leave in her bedside table and she can read from time to time. In the old days, we had to worry about kids finding a paper journal. Now, it’s very unlikely anyone would find it and, if they did, they necessarily would have been snooping and would be very unlikely to bring it up.
After exploring reporting, the conversation veered off into further exploration of a theme that was derived from KOJ’s revelations about being taken to a room and spanked during a party. Since we’ve talked about that happening, and a few people have experienced, I’m not sure exactly why it resonated with me, but it did. It seemed to get to Alan, too. For me, it may have been related KOJ’s description of what it did to the overall power dynamic between him and his wife:
“I also totally agree that escalating the punishment to semi-public had a profound effect on me and our relationship. It planted a healthy fear in my heart and made it clear how much authority she really wielded!” - KOJ
As ZM had alluded to last week, it’s all well and good to talk about “anytime, anywhere, for any reason,” but it’s kind of a meaningless grant of authority until she uses it in a way that truly pushes the envelope. By spanking him in a semi-public scenario, that’s what KOJ’s wife did, and it left him feeling a sense of “healthy fear.”
I have a feeling that suggesting a goal of DD might be to fear one’s spouse may raise some hackles, but isn’t it kind of inherent in the whole concept? If you don’t fear the consequences your wife may impose, then what’s the likelihood you’re going to change your behavior? Some may say that’s about fearing the consequences and not fearing the spouse, but if the spouse is determining and applying the consequences, that seems like splitting hairs.
The challenging issue, and where the “healthy fear” may arise, is reflected in Alan’s follow-up question:
“Just one of those [a semi-public spanking] would bring about a dramatic behavioral change in almost anyone. But it raises the question: how far are you or your wife willing to go to “manage” behavior?
“So many of us talk about wanting real discipline and accountability and even about “any time, any place for any reason “ (and I am on board for all of that). And here is one wife who did exactly that (and from various sources on the blogosphere, she is not the only wife to administer that kind of discipline.)
“My question is how many of us are ready for it to go that far? Or maybe a better question is how many want it to go that far.” – Alan
As Alan went on to point out, sometimes bad behavior is intractable. It may be lessened or controlled but not really eradicated. That could lead to what he called “uneasy equilibrium” in which “she is comfortable knowing she can manage those behaviors when they become a problem knowing they will crop up again and she will need to deal with them again.
But, importantly, some wives may not be willing to stay in that sort of equilibrium:
“But for DD wives unwilling to compromise, most couples probably find there is a limit to what can be accomplished with spanking alone, if for no other reason that no loving wife wants to take a beating to the place where serious or permanent injury could occur.
That seems to me the direction KOJ and his wife took, to the threat of, and then the reality of acutely embarrassing public punishment which must be a truly transformative event for both husband and wife -but is also virtually guaranteed to take care of all but truly intractable problem behaviors.”
Let’s explore that a bit more.
You could use lots of terms to describe what KOJ’s wife was willing to do to make her point. “Tough love” comes to mind. “By whatever means necessary,” is another. “Escalation” is another good word for it.
I really believe that one key to effective discipline is for the recipient to know that he absolutely will not win in a power struggle. When I was growing up, my father was kind of a force of nature. I didn’t get in many outright power struggles with him. Thankfully, he was not into making a lot of rules, because otherwise, I’m sure my ass would have been bruised well and often. There just wasn’t any question about who was boss, and part of that was in any contest of wills he was going to escalate to whatever level necessary to win. That’s just who he was.
Have you experienced that in your Domestic Discipline relationship? Has there been a time when your wife’s message wasn’t getting through, so she increased the stakes in some way that finally got your attention?
Maybe the spankings became longer, more frequent, or more severe?
Or, as Alan notes, there are limits on how far spankings can go. If she’s amped up the severity, duration, or frequency and it hasn’t resulted in the change she’s looking for, what then? Does it result in an “uneasy equilibrium,” or does she ramp things up in some other way? Non-spanking punishments? Something added to the spankings, like doing it in front of a window or where someone might overhear? Perhaps some more severe form of humbling or public embarrassment?
Whatever it was, did it work?
Conversely, perhaps there is some behavior that you want her to
help you fix but current efforts have not been successful. Is there something she could do that you fear
enough that it might actually result in a real change if she did it or
threatened it?
Once again Happy Halloween. Enjoy your week.
For us , a DD arrangement has an inherent policy of privacy and it is something that is kept between the two of us , so a public or semi public spanking would cross that line for us by violating that privacy.
ReplyDeleteI would say comments of threats made in public would be ok as long as they are not too explicit , and the act of leaving a window open or blinds up before a spanking would also be ok and can be very effective , but actually putting your DD arrangement out there for all to see would not be good for the relationship in general.
It would be kind of equivilant of a husband making a public ridicule of his wife's overspending habits.
Perhaps it may help curb her habits but a violation of inherent marital privacy.
It's good for her to push the envelope sometimes but there is a limit.
Hi Glen,
DeleteYou are certainly correct that privacy is an inherent part of marriage - or certainly most marriages - and that privacy needs to be respected by both parties, since violating it may very well harm the relationship. And obviously, since DD is part of the marriage, whatever privacy "rules" apply to that marriage will probably equally apply to the DD aspect of it as well.
Each couple has their own amount of expected privacy, and their own - often unspoken - agreement of where the lines are. And these lines are often not sharply defined, but rather are very dependent on the situation. For example, you said that you would be ok with comments or threats being made in public (as long as they are not too explicit), or with leaving blinds up or a window open during a spanking. I expect that either of these would have additional conditions, like just what level of "public" would be ok, just what is and isn't considered explicit, and what is going on in the yard or nearby during the spanking with the window open and/or blinds up (I am visualizing a church BBQ or something like that taking place in your yard here)!
For me, I would be OK with a certain level of loss of privacy, but only to carefully selected people. For something like being taken out of a party to be spanked within earshot of others (or even out of earshot if there was some way for people to deduce what was happening) would probably cross the line for me, depending on just who and how many people were at the party, the mood of the party, and just what happened to merit the punishment. But for me, I don't think it would be so far over the line that it would damage the relationship. For someone else, it might not be even anywhere near the line and for others, it might be so far over the line it would be difficult to get past.
I think this all ties in well with Alan's original question: "...how far are you or your wife willing to go to 'manage' behavior?" Normally, privacy should be maintained in a marriage, not only for DD but for many other things. However, in marriage there can come a time where not taking drastic steps will be more damaging than violating privacy would be. An example of this is a husband or wife with a serious alcohol or drug problem. At some point, the other spouse may decide that the behavior is sufficiently serious to merit violating the other person's privacy and stage an intervention with trusted friends or family members. In this case, the risk of damaging the relationship is deemed less than the risk of not addressing the issue. The same is true for pretty much all of the criminal justice system. Everyone SHOULD (at least in theory if not in current practice) have almost absolute privacy. However, if they violate laws, especially more serious ones that may have a harmful effect on society, they can lose almost all their privacy at least with regard to the behavior in question and any punishment that comes from it. This can include things being written in newspapers, court documents that are part of the public record, and even imprisonment where there is virtually no privacy of any kind. In a way we have advanced from old practices of putting criminals in stocks on main street for public ridicule, but in other ways not: the level of humiliation is now probably less, but the internet has assured that the record of wrongdoing is available for all to see, basically forever.
All this is to say that there is a balance, mostly determined by the situation and all the people involved.
-ZM
ZM, your answer and reference to Alan's original question makes an important point, i.e., surely any rational answer to "how far are you or your wife willing to go" has to be answered in relation to the specific behavior at issue. For minor issues, something like public embarrassment might be way over the line. For others, maybe not.
DeleteGlen, I agree that privacy is a big concern and needs to be protected. But, your specific examples seem to me to show just how particular the balance is to each couple and each person in the relationship. You said that being spanked in front of an open window would probably be OK for you, but I bet for others that could be over the line at least if there was any real chance of it being seen or overheard.
Depending on where you live , leaving a window open during a spanking will have a different audience.
DeleteFor us I would say the chances of someone hearing would not be high , but there is still a chance.
Being spanked at a function where everyone can hear would be very different.
I would add that it also very much depends on who the audience is. For me it would be out of the question to take a spanking within earshot of friends or neighbors. However I have been spanked in a hotel room where there is a good chance people in the rooms next door or the hallway heard something. But those were random strangers that I will never meet again so it was somehow still embarrassing but acceptable.
DeleteFor me it is interesting that the two scenarios I could see being at least somewhat OK are complete anonymity or being spanked in front of one or several of a very select group of people that I know very well and who understand our DD. And these two scenarios are of course complete opposites. The thing that doesn't work, at least for me, is being spanked in front of acquaintances or casual friends.
Delete-ZM
ZM, I think that actually makes a lot of sense if the uniting factor is certainty about disapproval and/or how much you care about a group's approval. If there is complete anonymity and you don't expect to see the others again, why should you care what they think? On the other hand, if you're spanked in front of true friends or people who understand the DD dynamic, you expect them to be supportive or at least neutral. The problem with acquaintances and casual friends is really the uncertainty of knowing how they will react, plus the possibility of some ongoing social sanction from these people who you don't know all that well but are very likely to see again.
DeleteOne offense that will result in a disciplinary spanking for me is using my cell phone during dinner. Once at a dinner party I pulled it out to share a video, and having had a little to drink, didn't get permission to do that before. She expressed her displeasure in a slightly shocked, authoritative manner, which was embarrassing for me, and was probably noticed by a few of our friends. Though none of them know I get spankings from her, they probably were curious about that little exchange. Aside from the threat of being outed, another effective method she occasionally uses is corner time. This usually proceeds a spanking, but not always. Being ordered to "go stand in the corner" clearly demonstrates her authority, and puts me in a very humble state of mind. If she ordered me in the corner in front of one of her friends, it would probably be equally effective, and almost as embarrassing, as getting a spanking.
ReplyDeleteCorner time is so iconic in DD relationships, yet it just doesn't work for me. I get meditative, or bored or irritated. I don't get the least bit humbled.
DeleteHi Norton,
ReplyDelete"Being ordered to 'go stand in the corner' clearly demonstrates her authority, and puts me in a very humble state of mind. If she ordered me in the corner in front of one of her friends, it would probably be equally effective, and almost as embarrassing, as getting a spanking." - My wife doesn't use corner time very frequently at all, but recently I too had the same thought about just how embarrassing it would be if my wife were to exercise her authority so openly in front of one of her friends. I think in many ways it would be more effective and embarrassing than if she spanked me in front of that friend, because I would be entirely focused on the situation and the embarrassment, without the "distraction" of my bottom being set on fire. Of course, I am just guessing, since nothing like this has ever happened to me.
-ZM
In my fantasy world, a wife could spank her husband whenever and wherever. But we live in the real world. The biggest problem with that approach is that you may, and most likely will, offend innocent bystanders. That IMO is not at all appropriate.
ReplyDeleteIt would be nice if there were more group activities. One can find them in my area, but we have very rarely taken advantage of them. For example, there are groups that meet monthly (or more often) where a wife could take her husband and blister his behind as much as she wants. The group would be supportive. And, having experienced this once, the husband will certainly sense embarrassment.
It is possible to have quasi-public activities that no one is likely to notice. For instance, when I'm due for a spanking and we happen to have dinner out, my wife has a code that is pretty innocuous. I love dessert. When the serve come to take our dessert order, my wife simply says "Thank you so much, but we don't have time for dessert tonight. We still have business to take care of at home." Or she may make me say it. I get the message and feel the slight embarrassment, but the server is not at all offended. Other than a less costly meal means a somewhat lower tip!
As always, just my two cent. Graham
I like the vague but pointed comment at dinner, but the group activity would not, I think, work for me. The difference between the two for me is that the former, while less overt, has a clear, disciplinary connotation that at least the couple appreciates. Group spanking activities always strike me as more on the kink or fetish scale of the spectrum. Without a pretty tight nexus with accountability, penance, etc., spanking doesn't do much for me.
DeleteMy wife can convey that I'm in trouble, just by raising her eyebrow in a certain way, but when I really mess up while we are in public, she will occasionally discuss it by pretending she is talking about something one of our kids has done. "He should really know better as his age" is one of her favorite ways to make a point.
DeleteI'm with Dan on the group spanking thing. It is not necessarily that I might not feel the same - or at least similar - embarrassment, but rather that anything that is spanking group related to me feels a lot more like BDSM play, which of course is fine for those who are into it. For me, my fantasy/fetish/whatever is "exercised female authority resulting in real punishments for real misdeeds, taking place under blanket consent, but feeling non-consensual at the time."
Delete"The biggest problem with that approach is that you may, and most likely will, offend innocent bystanders." - This could well be true. The most important thing - not only in DD but in so many situations in life - is to KNOW YOUR AUDIENCE! :)
-ZM
I agree that some level of fear (of the spouse or the punishment, whatever the case may be) is necessary for behavioural improvement to occur as a result of DD. If there is nothing unpleasant about it that people want to avoid, I don't see how it can bring about behavioural improvements.
ReplyDeleteIn terms of what can be accomplished by spanking alone, I suppose one factor is whether the husband might be seen naked in public (say in the armed forces with shared showering facilities) and if so, whether this is something the husband and wife are okay with. If the answers are "yes" and "no", it means it is necessary to try harder to avoid leaving marks.
I haven't had a power struggle with my wife as such. When we started the DD lifestyle, we agreed I would cooperate if I wanted things to work as planned. This doesn't mean to say I have never argued with my wife about whether a spanking is the right course of action in certain situations. However, when things got heated, she reminded me of my need and promise to cooperate for the DD system to work properly.
So far, upping the duration and severity of spankings has tended to result in the desired result being achieved, even if it is gradually, over days, weeks or whatever. That said, there is something else she can do if all efforts to resolve the situation with spanking fail, but it is a bit beyond the scope of this group, I suppose.
J
"If there is nothing unpleasant about it that people want to avoid, I don't see how it can bring about behavioural improvements."
DeleteI agree, and the issue Alan's question raised seems to me to be just how unpleasant the wife is willing to make it--or the husband wants or is OK with it getting--to actually change the behavior.
I'll leave it up to you whether the "something else she can do" is beyond the scope. The topic did expressly contemplate things other than spanking and alternative non-spanking punishments.
I suppose it is generally good for a husband to be willing to allow the spanking to be as extreme as it needs to be to bring about the desired outcome. However, my wife and I were never really convinced that public embarrassment was the way to go.
DeleteOn one hand, if F/M spanking were extremely common, there wouldn't be much embarrassment resulting from a public spanking.
On the other hand, while it remains uncommon, to me personally, it seems a bit counter-intuitive to be airing dirty laundry in public. In my strictly personal opinion, the ideal is the issue is dealt with by the spanking, with the end result being that to the rest of the world, the couple is harmonious. This was the case with the former military colleague into F/M DD and I hope this is how it looks with me and my wife, to those around us.
J
"On one hand, if F/M spanking were extremely common, there wouldn't be much embarrassment resulting from a public spanking."
DeleteMy initial reaction was that was likely true. But, I then remembered I grew up in an area in which spanking (of kids) was extremely common and out in the open, yet for the person on the receiving end it was still very embarrassing.
This is kind of what I was getting at last week or the week before when Alan talked about how embarrassment would vary if you were taken out and spanked, versus you and multiple other men also being taken out and spanked. For me, the embarrassment seems to hinge on whether (a) whether it is *only" me being taken out; and (b) whether it is disciplinary at its core and not just a kinky group thing. What it doesn't seem to depend on is whether the other people in the group I'm being taken out of are into DD themselves. As long as I was the only one being taken out to be spanked, and as long as it was the result of some disciplinary infraction and not just a spanking group thing, I don't think it would matter than much to me that others in the gathering were themselves spankos. It's the act of being singled out for a spanking, and the spanking is disciplinary, that makes me feel the embarrassment.
Of course, all the above is theoretical based on my internal reaction to thinking about the scenarios, since none of them have happened in real life.
I have tended to view corporal punishment of children and adult DD as being a world apart. I don't think I would necessarily feel the same way about an adult DD spanking carried out under the same conditions.
DeleteOne reason is I think pretty much any adult DD spanking I receive will have a small element of kink, even if it is small compared to the punishment aspect.
I would definitely find it desirable if I could be in touch with more men in similar situations in person, particularly at work. It would enable me to share tips about how to "do" DD marriages more effectively.
J
I think you're right that there probably is some feeling of underlying kink in any adult spanking, though I wonder whether that would make the participants more or less prone to embarrassment. I genuinely don't know. I do think adults are much more prone to embarrassment than kids.
Delete"It's the act of being singled out for a spanking, and the spanking is disciplinary, that makes me feel the embarrassment" This is a concept that resonates with me. When I was at a spanking party and the spanking was all kinky and fun, I never felt embarrassed going over some woman's lap for a spanking. However, if my wife or GF was truly annoyed with me and ordered me over her lap for a real disciplinary spanking in front of friends, that would be very humbling and embarrassing. Like some others on this blog, the idea of others knowing about our DD is a turn on.
DeleteHi J,
Delete"I have tended to view corporal punishment of children and adult DD as being a world apart." - I think we probably all agree with this, first and foremost because I don't ever remember a childhood spanking that either I got or anyone else around me got that I would call "consensual." Having said that, there are also obviously huge areas of overlap between adults and children being spanked, and certainly many of the feelings that the recipient feels are more similar than different. And actually, the feelings that a bystander would feel are probably more similar than different. Certainly discomfort at the awkwardness of the situation, sympathy for the one being punished, and perhaps at times even a sense of "good, they had it coming" or even amusement.
"On the other hand, while it remains uncommon, to me personally, it seems a bit counter-intuitive to be airing dirty laundry in public. In my strictly personal opinion, the ideal is the issue is dealt with by the spanking, with the end result being that to the rest of the world, the couple is harmonious." - I agree, and not only for spanking, but also for any sort of disagreement or arguing. Especially true for truly "public" situations; the more comfortable people are with those around them, the more candid they can be with the truth (again, in anything and everything, not only DD).
-ZM
"One reason is I think pretty much any adult DD spanking I receive will have a small element of kink, even if it is small compared to the punishment aspect." - Again, I fully agree, though probably for me it is more a " relatively large element of kink" rather than a "small" one. However, I think a little kink is often a good thing, not a bad thing. We are all wired differently, and nobody should be shy about being a little kinky.
-ZM
:And actually, the feelings that a bystander would feel are probably more similar than different. Certainly discomfort at the awkwardness of the situation, sympathy for the one being punished, and perhaps at times even a sense of "good, they had it coming" or even amusement."
DeleteToday, I think there would be huge discomfort at seeing a child spanked in public. When I was growing up, it would have been way more likely to be amusement or "good, they had it coming."
I agree. Attitudes about spanking as a punishment - especially of children, but also in all institutional situations - have changed dramatically in the past 20 or so years. So I guess my comment would be more referencing someone who does not share the huge aversion to spanking that has become so prevalent, like perhaps someone from one of the older generations, or the way that an average person may have thought when I was a child.
DeleteToday, in the case of seeing a child spanked in public, I think most people (myself included) would probably pretty quickly question whether it was a case of abuse, and perhaps rightly so, because we hear a lot about abuse. Of course, this would completely depend on the situation.
If I saw or heard an adult being spanked in public, again it would depend on the situation, but with more variation. If it was a man giving a woman a quick swat, I would take it all as playful and kind of sexy. If it was a woman giving a man a quick swat, I would definitely take notice and probably all sorts of thoughts would go through my head, but I would probably assume again that it was playful and obviously consensual.
In the case of a more serious spanking (presumably heard, since that is much more likely than witnessed), if it was a female who was the recipient, I would probably think "battered wife," unless I knew the couple well enough to kind of have a feel that they have a pretty happy marriage. If it was the guy being spanked, I would of course assume it was DD and fully consensual, but that is because of my experiences. If I had little to no knowledge of DD, I am not sure what I would think. Still, I would probably not assume it was totally non-consensual or abuse, since there are very few couples I have seen where the man could not clearly overpower the woman with relative ease.
In any of the real punishment scenarios, whether it was a child or an adult being spanked, I would be embarrassed for them, and depending on the situation, I might be embarrassed for the one doing the spanking as well, though in the case of adult spanking or even just a woman verbally reprimanding her husband, I would also find it pretty exciting because of my interest in DD. Interestingly enough, I think I would feel about the same sympathy and embarrassment for the recipient regardless of whether an actual spanking occurred or whether it was just a raised voice. Someone pointed out a few months ago that it is very uncomfortable to see anyone arguing, raising their voices, or being yelled at.
Everything I said above applies mostly to strangers or those I don't know well. The better I know them and their situation, the less I would be phased by the whole thing, or at least I think that is how it would work.
-ZM
ZM, I can't imagine my wife ever threatening me with a spanking if we are within earshot of others. She's been known to whisper it in my ear though. There's also no way that she would escort me to another room to administer corporal punishment.
DeleteVerbal chastisement is another matter. Beth doesn't mind scolding me in front of others if my behavior warrants "a good talking to". She doesn't find it necessary to raise her voice - there certainly isn't any yelling. Instead, she's very calm and businesslike when she reprimands. It sometimes feels like I've been verbally spanked and I know that others have taken notice. Friends have probably thought "poor Kevin, is really going to get it from Beth later". I'm sure they would mean that figuratively, but it's an accurate prediction nonetheless.
Hi Kevin,
DeleteI could see my wife threatening me with a spanking within earshot of others, but not just random people. Rather, it would only happen in front of those who already know everything about our DD and are comfortable (or enthusiastic for one person) about it.
I kind of like the whole calm, firm, confident, matter-of-fact approach that you are describing. I can see where that wouldn't make others very uncomfortable. And them thinking "he is going to really get it later" is most ironic. If only they knew!
-ZM
Calm, firm, and confident is how she spanks too. And I have to say, it's an approach that works with me.
DeleteI would like to add to the conversation about when a spanking is embarrassing. For me the embarrassing part is not the spanking per se, but what it implies about me. First of all it implies that I have done something a reasonable adult shouldn't do and worse it implies I lack the self control to change this behavior on my own. In addition spankings is something you do to children, or used to where we live, so me needing one implies I'm not really an adult and need to be treated like a child instead, at least partially. That's what makes it embarrassing to me an having that shown to other people makes it much worse. In my mind this also makes the difference in a consensual spanking in a group of like minded people not being embarrassing, while getting one because I deserve one would be.
DeleteMarkus,
DeleteThese are excellent insights!
"... it implies that I have done something a reasonable adult shouldn't do and worse it implies I lack the self control to change this behavior on my own." - What you are describing pretty much exactly matches how I feel when I am spanked. In fact, this applies even when I am not spanked, like with regard to our check-ins. I am at least somewhat embarrassed that I lack sufficient self-control to change without extrinsic motivation.
"...spankings is something you do to children, or used to where we live, so me needing one implies I'm not really an adult and need to be treated like a child instead, at least partially." - I wrote more about this below under another of your comments, before I read this one. I know that at least I feel like a little boy when I am spanked, no matter how noble it might be that I am submitting to it.
"That's what makes it embarrassing to me an having that shown to other people makes it much worse." - I also agree with this. It is not so much that I would hate for someone to see me physically spanked. Maybe I would be worried that I wouldn't take the pain well enough and would seem like kind of a wimp, but unless the person watching had been spanked in recent years, they really wouldn't know just how it feels, and if they were spanked as a child, they probably remember it as worse than it actually was. I don't know that it would bother me so much that they would see my wife exercise authority, since this authority she has is by agreement between us. But I would find it very embarrassing that I needed to be spanked for whatever the reason might be, because it shows my lack of self-control that I would end up in this position. And also, I would not like them to see my out-of-shape body, which is yet another evidence of my lack of self-control.
-ZM
Markus and ZM, great thoughts. Markus, I totally agree with your insights on what it is about witnesses that makes it seem so intriguing yet embarrassing.
DeleteZM, the one part that works different for me is this: "I don't know that it would bother me so much that they would see my wife exercise authority, since this authority she has is by agreement between us." I think the show of authority *would* bother me and, honestly, might be one of the most embarrassing parts. I think part of that is my very deep-seated aversion to being subjected to anyone's authority, and that would be so much worse if done in public where others would see my spot in the hierarchy. While I kind of hate to admit it, I clearly have ego issues around not wanting to be seen as subordinate to anyone.
For me my feelings depend on whether or not I respect the person that tries to exert authority over me. I respect my wife so it doesn't bother me when she uses her authority and I don't think it would add much to my embarrassment if she would do so in front of others. On the other hand I have rage quit a job over an ultimately minor thing because I was fed up with a clueless manager on a power trip I had zero respect for.
DeleteI definitely have less of a problem if I respect the authoritarian, but it never completely goes away.
DeleteI too have an ever-present problem with authority. I buck against it in almost every case. The only reason that I expect I may be more OK with it in this point is that she has the authority at my request. She wasn't given this authority by someone else, but rather me.
Delete-ZM
That distinction makes sense.
DeleteI have a big problem with any public display of discipline.The issue of consent applies to anyone who is exposed to disciplinary activity. Sure, I would be very embarrassed if my wife spanked me within hearing of guests. I would be deeply worried that they didn't want to hear her spanking me. The element of exposure is a very hot fantasy. Perhaps it might be a more feared disciplinary activity. In reality is has no place in our dd relationship.
ReplyDeleteThere is one exception. If you belong to an organization that has gatherings of people who are into BDSM or discipline, then exposure is perfectly acceptable. I've been spanked at such a party. It wasn't fun for me at all. Others teased me about it later in the evening.
My point is that it is wrong to expose people to your disciplinary activities without their explicit consent. This even applies to telling friends about your dd. At least that's how I look at it.
CL, I guess I don't understand how it would be possible to get a friend's consent to tell them about DD without telling them about it. It's also hard to see what possible harm to them could come of it. But, I also admit I'm firmly in the camp that believes that all the offense-taking out there has gotten pretty out of hand.
DeleteLion wrote: "It is wrong [,without consent,] to . . . to [tell] friends about your dd."
DeleteI certainly agree with respecting all peoples sensitivities in such matters. However, all humans (except some psychopaths) need some type of "social bonding and support" in the most important parts of our lives. Sometimes a spouse is simply not enough, especially, if the matter involves a potential conflict with a spouse.
I think it is okay, without prior consent, to raise your personal life that includes DD with close friends, provided you do this slowly and gently, giving such friends an opportunity to withdraw from the conversation, as the friends feel is appropriate.
There is also the matter of ensuring your friends understand the sensitivity of these matters, and you trust the friends to maintain appropriate levels of confidentiality. After all, you will also be sharing intimate details that include and effect your spouse's privacy.
DeleteHi Lion,
DeleteI want to echo’s Dan's question re telling someone about your DD relationship. (Dan wrote: “I also admit I'm firmly in the camp that believes that all the offense-taking out there has gotten pretty out of hand.”) Of course, one wouldn’t disclose personal intimacies without the full informed consent of your partner.
In fact, I have always been something of a prude in this area all the way back to High School. I remember vividly hearing adolescent males brag about their latest seduction and thinking what jerks they were for betraying an intimate partner. I still feel that way.
But telling a third party about my DD relationship -- as long as my wife knows and agrees – raises no ethical issues or for that matter issues of social propriety. We are talking about adults talking to other adults here. Your posts almost always are spot on. So, what is the issue here?
Alan
Alan, I'll go a bit further and admit I didn't get formal consent from Anne before telling the female friend who knows about it, and I don't have any regrets or guilt about that. First, I didn't really know I was going to tell this friend until, over a couple of drinks, I did so. Second, it's a matter of knowing your spouse. I didn't ask Anne's permission, but after well over a decade of marriage I was pretty sure I wasn't risking a negative reaction. Third, while this is a mutual friend, she's been one of my closest friends for several years. As Donn notes, sometimes you need to confide things in someone who isn't your spouse. I don't feel any qualms about confessing something important in confidence to a friend, particularly something that may be inherently embarrassing about me but isn't so much embarrassing as to Anne. As one of wives on here said, "Why should I be embarrassed? I'm not the one getting spanked."
DeleteAlso, if I were going to get upset at myself about revealing our DD life without Anne's express consent, the bigger offense would be starting this blog. I did tell her about it, but only after I'd been doing it for at least a couple of years.
I tend to agree with Dan here, but to a limited extent.
DeleteIf you have the opportunity to get your wife's explicit "perspective" and consent, of you talking to trusted third parties about DD -- get that "general / non-specific consent," in advance, that seems the best policy.
You know, I have never directly discussed with my own wife what her opinions and limits might be concerning me entering such third-party discussions. While I have no immediate needs or plans, talking to her seems like something I should do, immediately!
(She always had my consent to talk to third parties, from the very beginning of our relationship. I thought it only fair, as she was a "newbie" back then.)
Regarding telling others about your DD relationship without your spouse's explicit consent, I think it just depends on your relationship with your spouse, how much you have talked about "others" knowing about your DD, and who the person is who is being told. Obviously, if you have agreed with your spouse to keep it completely secret, then by all means do so! If you have talked at length about others knowing, like my wife and I have, and if either or both of you have told a few carefully selected others, then I think it is less necessary to get explicit consent from your spouse before telling someone else, but again it would depend greatly on the situation and who you were telling.
DeleteWith regard to the explicit consent from any witnesses, I am somewhere in the middle. I think doing a spanking in a truly public situation is just a really bad idea, with public in this case meaning anywhere or anytime that you don't know everyone who is present very well. And in particular the thing I don't like about the being taken out of a party thing where people can hear, is that neither of you can gauge their reactions, since you are in the other room.
What I can't get on board with, or even close to is this: "... it is wrong to expose people to your disciplinary activities without their explicit consent." - I don't like the use of the word "wrong" there, because I simply don't see how it is morally bad, and if someone does think so, I would like to understand why. Is it because you perceive spanking as sexual? People tell others about sex all the time, and never after obtaining explicit consent, at least as far as I have seen. Is spanking more sexual than sex? Or is it because spanking is perceived as violent? If so, it is a relatively low form of violence, since consensual DD never has as its objective to cause lasting physical harm. Or is it because you see spanking as kinky? Again, this changes quickly, and what many thought was kinky just some years ago is very mainstream and common now. And even if it is kinky or taboo, I can't see why it would be morally wrong to tell someone.
And while I don't agree, or at least not fully, I could probably live with the first statement had the follow-up statement not pushed it way over the edge of rationality for me: "This even applies to telling friends about your dd." In the case of it being a friend, I assume it is a close and trusted friend. Also, I assume that probably you are telling this friend face to face. Assuming that one has the emotional intelligence of a rock, they can pretty quickly gauge whether someone is receptive to what is being said and change direction if necessary. Their facial expressions, engagement in the conversation, questions, and so on will give pretty clear implied consent or dissent.
Consent has been made way, way, way too big of an issue in recent years. I am so glad I am not part of the dating scene today. Can I hold your hand? Would it be ok if I were to gaze into your eyes? Etc. Anyone with even half a brain can see if the other person is truly onboard with something, without verbally asking for every little thing! In the same way, we as a society have become excessively concerned with being offended. Being offended is just a part of life, from time to time, and sometimes people need to choose to not be offended by everything (or at least they might need to just assume the other person is an idiot) and get on with life), without making such a big deal out of the horrible tragedy that they were offended.
Enough ranting for now... :)
-ZM
ZM wrote: “Consent has been made way, way, way too big of an issue in recent years. I am so glad I am not part of the dating scene today. Can I hold your hand? Would it be OK if I were to gaze into your eyes? Etc.”
DeleteI am voting twice of that one and hope the Trumpers catch me. But, yes, the whole notion of “trigger warnings” and explicit verbal (or written) consent in every step of courtship is the product of aberrant minds not meaningfully connected to the real world of human beings.
But here is the worst of it. These fruitcake ideas come from the so-called progressive wing of the Democrat Party – providing plenty of ammo for our even crazier right wingers to make fun of them and use the “Progressives” excesses to justify their own outrages. Somehow Americans have become stuck between the wing nuts on the right and the sensitivity wackos on the left -when most Americans are really neither, but firmly moderates.
The right win zealots are our most urgent problem, but the left-wing nerds should probably be charged with “aiding and abetting”
Alan
By the way, Caged, I am sorry for the way my rant probably came across. I didn't mean to seem to be attacking your position too much. While I don't necessarily agree with everything, I do at least somewhat get where you are coming from, and I too want to always be sensitive to those around me, to keep them from feeling unnecessarily uncomfortable.
Delete-ZM
ZM and Alan, I'd love to sit down with you two and talk politics and society over a beer sometime. Alan, I could have written your comment word-for-word.
DeleteDan, Alan, and others, Let me frame my comment in a slightly different way. If you feel comfortable telling a friend what you did in bed with your wife last night, I would agree that it would be the same to admit she spanks you. Even though we don't consider dd to be sex, others might lump it into that category -- we are exposing our rear ends and she is doing something with it. My point is that there has to be a reasonable threshold that makes discussing dd/spanking with non participants. I suppose that if you are comfortable telling someone that your wife gave you oral sex last night, you are ok to tell that person that she spanked you.
DeleteThe other question about whether you need her permission to tell someone is pretty much the same. If your wife would be comfortable knowing that you told people about your sex life, then it's reasonable she might be fine with you discussing dd.
This same subject has been debated for years in the BDSM community. It's exciting to share kinky stuff with people. There's that implicit vulnerability and humiliation. We always believed that the key is how the conversation will affect the person we are sharing knowledge with.
It isn't safe to assume that someone who you talk with about your sex life will be comfortable learning about your dd. That's a whole other level of sharing. However, gently probing comfort levels with a person who you are comfortable with discussing personal sexual experiences, is probably reasonable.
One other thing to consider. When I was single, I knew I liked spanking. On more than one occasion, when I mentioned this interest to a woman I had been having sex with, she ended the relationship. I was tactful and careful. Like it or not, we are way off the scale when it comes to things people can accept.
I think this may be another area where some might import learnings from BDSM, but I personally wouldn't. Kind of like the insistence by some in BDSM world that there absolutely must be safe words. In my view of my own DD relationship, there is a sexual component to it, but it's not sex. BDSM on the other hand is sexual. The sexual component is the whole point. There are overlaps between DD and BDSM, but they aren't the same thing. Whey I first told my friend about DD, I doubt I alluded to sex at all. And, honestly, had she taken big offense at the conversation, then I guess she wasn't much of a friend in the first place.
DeleteI agree that BDSM and DD are different. I suppose that DD is the child of BDSM in the sense that most of us started out getting sexual feelings about spanking. Dan, I think you missed my point. First, being sensitive to others' feelings isn't left wing. It's good manners. Second, discussing a spanking you got or are going to get is a very intimate topic. Most of the people I know don't have explicit discussions about intimate activities they are involved in.
DeleteI realize that this is an unpopular point of view here, but I don't believe that the transaction of sharing your dd activities with friends has any value to them. It has value to you because it fulfills the fantasy of embarrassment. Yes, I share the fantasy too. I just believe that trying to involve vanilla friends to fulfill it is, at best, selfish.
I think we're probably just going to have to agree to disagree on some of these issues.
DeleteFirst, I don't think DD is a child of BDSM just because both involve sexual feelings. If anything, I think BDSM and Femdom probably are among the biggest impediments to more wives adopting DD, because many don't like the whole BDSM, Femdom, cosplay image and connotations.
Second, I agree that it's good to be sensitive to others' feelings, but that doesn't mean that personal behavior and communications should be subject to the preferences of the most easily offended person within sight or hearing, and inventing new things to get offended by has been a cottage industry among both the left and the right of late.
Third, I don't agree with the factual presumption you're making that friends you've known for years are going to have negative feelings if you bring up something they may not be interested in. I'm interested in hearing about all sorts of things about my friends' lives even if those things have no personal appeal to me. I'm interested in hearing about them because they are important to my friends. I think key to the dispute may be your description of a conversation among two friends as a "transaction," in which one is being "selfish" if he or she shares something personal with a friend without somehow first figuring out whether it's something they're into. I don't think most real friends consider conversations to be transactional.
It's very hard to understand the lines you're drawing in labeling certain things "wrong" or "selfish." In another comment, you referenced being cavalier about leaving spanking implements out and allowing movers to see them. Isn't that "selfish"? Isn't the mere act of leaving them out a transaction of sorts that might inadvertently expose people to something they might be offended by? As it turns out, your mover seems to have actually been into it, but, (a) if you're position is correct, wasn't exposing him to the instruments at all without knowing his preferences both selfish and wrong; and (b) his seeming positive interest in the whole thing would seem to undermine the theory that most people aren't interested in hearing or seeing spanking-related stuff and that conversations or allusions to those activities have no value to them.
I just got done getting a spanking!! It had a couple of things that were working on my mind.
ReplyDeleteFirst, it was happening on the day that trick-or- treaters were coming around, after they started. Second, it was just before a mutual friend was supposed to come over.
My mind was working overtime on the drive home. Images of me over the pillows with my pants down and the door to the bedroom open while she handed out candy had me overwrought!! Then, the thought of sitting there with a raw, sore behind with our friend just added to my misery. When I got home I prepared everything for my spanking in record time. I just wanted it over.
Fortunately for me, on two counts, no kids came to the door mid-spanking. And our friend canceled for the evening.
The spanking hurt, and still does, but the ride home and the anticipation made it feel like the worst one ever.
You could have looked like a male version of the woman in the first drawing in this week's post!
DeleteExactly!! I was really quite apprehensive, thinking of me, face down and bare bottomed, while my wife answered the door!! Barely fifteen feet away, to kids, most of whom have never been spanked.
DeleteWhile I agree that fearing the consequences of misbehavior is an essential element of a DD relationship, I think this is very different from fearing my wife. To me fearing her would imply a certain lack of trust and in her and for me our arrangement only works as long as I fully trust her not to abuse the power she has over me. I'm certainly afraid of the punishments she doles out, but I have trust that she does it only if she has good reasons, does it in my and our families best interest and stays within the boundaries we agreed upon. So far my wife never had a problem escalating a punishment when necessary, but we are still relatively new at this.
ReplyDeleteOne of those boundaries mentioned is privacy. We generally are not very open about our private life and always agreed that this is something that has to stay between us. Discretion is key, first and foremost because we have school aged children that are old enough to put one and one together absolutely must not know about this. We use the same level of discretion around other people, so sometimes this means the spanking will have to wait, but my wife has become quite creative in finding some discrete ways to punish me or at least remind me of correct behavior until we have an opportunity for a spanking or humbling me privately. I have spend quite some time having a time-out standing in the corner of our bedroom or the bathroom of a restaurant or some friends house; or being send to bed early. I also made the mistake of mentioning how much I hated it when I was little and my parents made me wear woolen tights to school in winter, so she started making me wear them as a punishment and things escalated from there.
There is on exception to our privacy rule and that is my wife's best friend. They know each other for most of their life and I trust her almost as much as my wife. At some point my wife said she needed someone besides me to talk about these things and get the occasional reality check and I agreed. She never was present for the actual spanking, but she has been within ear-shot a few times and that definitely added a whole new level of humiliation to the punishment. I'm usually on my best behavior when she is around, so I can see the appeal of adding semi-public punishments to the arsenal.
Thanks, Markus. I certainly remember that young kids phase and the extra discretion it required. Though, because they are so good at putting together one plus one, I always wonder whether our discretion really was successful. As far as I know, it was, but maybe they are just very discrete about letting us know what they know about our indiscretions.
DeleteI had a friend whose wife spanked him, among other things. One morning when his wife was having breakfast with their teenaged kids, her daughter said that she heard daddy beating her. His wife answered, "What makes you think he was spanking me?"
DeleteI really hope that is not the case. I'm afraid they are to young to really understand what is going on would just be very disturbed, the concept of a spanking will be completely scary and foreign to them. Also my wife and I are definitely not ready to try to explain it to them, we are still trying to figure this out ourselves.
DeleteHowever this raises the question of letting them know once they have grown up. Right know I can't see myself ever discussing something like this with them, which is a bit hypocritical given that I also think there is nothing to really be ashamed about DD and that it should be more commonly accepted. How can we spread the word if we can't even be open about inside our own family.
Markus, I think it depends on their ages. A very young child probably wouldn't understand it at all. Teenagers? My guess is they would understand but wouldn't ever bring it up.
DeleteWhen they are grown up? I doubt I would discuss it with my kids, but they are girls. Would Anne discuss it with them? So far she hasn't, but I'm honestly always a little surprised by that. I agree that it is odd that family members are sometimes the last we will talk to about very personal stuff. I'd definitely never talk about this with my siblings or parents. Though, I guess you should never say never.
I guess it would very much depend on what kind of person the kids grow up to be and what our relationship will be then. Thankfully they are only 10 and 7 and still believe in Santa Clause, so my wife and I have another 10-15 years to figure this one out until it really becomes a relevant question. At least that is what we hope for. We have both a boy and a girl and now that you mentioned it, I also have a much easier time imagining my wife talking to my daughter some day when she might have problems in a relationship that DD could solve.
DeleteCaged Lion, did the teenage daughter immediately deduce that it was F/M DD from the statement? Did they say if they were relaxed about their children finding out like this? I suppose if not, it could be undesirable.
DeleteAt the moment, my wife and I expect (not with 100% certainty) that she will tell them when they are adults about how she used to spank me all those years ago. That is ideal because they can avoid being exposed to adult things before it is necessary (I assume it would be very awkward trying to explain if one of them walked in on a DD session), but my wife can hopefully impart some wisdom to them about how F/M DD can improve their relationships.
J
Some of you must hang out in very different circles than I do. In my entire life, I have no memory of ever having seen or heard an adult spanked for punishment, or even seriously threatened with such a thing. Certainly not a male being threatened by a female. It would be outrageous and, in a normal public setting would, I believe, unless seen as a comical stunt, create a most uncomfortable atmosphere for everyone around, including myself as an innocent bystander. And that is exactly why I love to consider the idea. As truly impactful discipline, there is no argument that I would want to avoid such consequences but, in reality as opposed to fantasy, if I was in a DD relationship, I would also choose not to impose this awkward situation on people who want no part of it.
ReplyDeleteI like the drawing of the guy being led up the stairs by his wife (I assume) with a paddle in her hand. The two females watching from the foot of the stairs, one looking somewhat troubled and embarrassed by what is happening, the other seemingly pleased about it, depicts the kind of public setting I tend to want to see. It looks like a domestic scene. The witnesses may or may not be members of the same family, but it feels like they belong in this house. They are in some way connected to what is happening, not just strangers or random BDSM enthusiasts invited to enjoy a show. This will be agonizing for the husband, as his shame will not only be shared by everyone in the house today, the relationships will endure with his punishment well remembered by all. I grew up in a house and a neighborhood where spankings were by no means private affairs. I can't say it was entirely effective in stopping misbehavior, but others witnessing or hearing about it definitely made punishment a lot worse.
"If you don’t fear the consequences your wife may impose, then what’s the likelihood you’re going to change your behavior? Some may say that’s about fearing the consequences and not fearing the spouse, but if the spouse is determining and applying the consequences, that seems like splitting hairs."
I've always said that about my parents. I didn't fear them, but I feared getting a spanking. I guess it's like saying, I don't fear the law, I fear the punishment it imposes when the law is broken. If the law is applied fairly, we have control over our lives by avoiding trouble. If not fair, we could live in terror, not knowing what might happen at any moment. Bottom line, I would want a wife who is fair, but strict when called for. She is feared, but only when there is legitimate trouble or when considering misbehavior.
"It would be outrageous and, in a normal public setting would, I believe, unless seen as a comical stunt, create a most uncomfortable atmosphere for everyone around, including myself as an innocent bystander. And that is exactly why I love to consider the idea." Exactly!
DeleteRegarding that drawing, I've had it in my collection for years and posted it on the blog multiple times. But, perhaps because of KOJ's story, this time it resonated with me in a way it hadn't before, and I too picked up more nuances such as the two bystanders' seemingly very different reactions to what is happening. My one gripe - why do you almost never see a F/m spanking drawing in which there is any genuine emotion in the male figure? It's either wooden or over-blown shock. You rarely see anything like genuine fear, contrition, anxiety, etc. Female characters in M/f and F/f drawings seem to be portrayed with much more genuine-looking displays of emotion.
I hadn't really looked closely at that drawing before, but it really is interesting, especially the bystanders' reactions. Because of the colors of the hair, it is easy for me to see my wife's good friend (with dark hair) and my wife's sister (with the blond hair). The dark-haired friend is the one who was here while I was being spanked in the other room, and she is kind of enthusiastic about the whole dominance aspect of this, and my wife's sister knows everything about our DD, but either is disinterested or not sure what to think about it. In any case, the facial reactions of the characters in the drawing seem to match up pretty well to what they would likely have in this situation.
Delete-ZM
Yeah, you can make up all sorts of stories to match that scene. I think Alan has talked about how being spanked in front of his sister-in-law brought them closer and that she even sympathized with him a little. Maybe in that drawing, the lighter haired witness is a sympathetic friend or relative who kind of feels bad about what is about to happen to him.
DeleteI have been spanked in semi-public and a few times in full public. It occurred during my former FLM. She believed in adding the extra humiliation of witnesses, but a bit of it was that she liked it. My current life partner does not discipline me in full view of general public but has spanked in a semi-public setting or away from the vies of others but well within earshot. As far a multiple spanking for a single offense, she does that, but not over several days. She will spank long and hard, then leave me in position to reflect and return 15 to 30 minutes later and spank me again. Tell me to remain in position and return later for another spanking. Sometimes she will return and ask if I have learned my lesson. I always answer, 'Yes Ma'am'. She usually says, 'well let's be sure' and I get spanked again. The offense usually dictates how many times she will leave and return for further spankings, but when she is finished, she says, when you have composed yourself, you may return to your days activities. Rarely has it gone beyond three returns from her and believe me I am red and sore for a long long time afterwards.
ReplyDeleteI wonder whether multiple spankings on the same day are more effective than spread out over several days. In the past, I probably would have said that multiple days were more effective, but I don't get nearly as much residual soreness now as in years past.
DeleteDan wrote: “I wonder whether multiple spankings on the same day are more effective than spread out over several days.”
DeleteI share your wonder. Full disclosure: my experience with multiple spankings - usually for multiple offenses, but sometimes for a single offense- have all been on the same day.
My former girlfriend usually limited them to two separate spankings, interrupted with some brief corner time out and then back over her knee. Hers were more spontaneous in that I think that she didn’t plan on the second one. But she sensed my bum was becoming numb and she wasn’t done. Hence the break which does have the effect of quickly bringing back feeling in your bottom. I remember the second one always seemed worse, full on from the start and no scolding.
I remembered these and was fool enough to describe them to my wife early in our DD relationship. With her they have always been about multiple issues, with longer corner time in between and a lot of scolding. Also they have been more planned in advance so if multiple spankings are coming, I know it.
I have been spanked a few times on consecutive days, but not for the same issue and never a scheduled series of spanking over several consecutive days. The latter apparently is practiced by some couples and works for them. Maybe it would for us if we tried it, but both of us like the closure that comes from the single day and done
Alan
I'm in the opposite situation. We've done multiples on consecutive days, but not on the same day. The second one does hurt, but about the same as the first. I always assume it is going to be much worse than it actually is.
DeleteHaving experienced both types of multiples I’ll say this, with 10-15 minutes between the numbness can reestablish itself fairly quickly. With one before work and one after work on the same day it’s killer!!
DeleteOn consecutive days it depends on the severity of the first spanking and also how many days in a row. I’ve written previously about a bad week when I received a spanking every day for five days. I was crying when I pulled down my underwear by day three
Although some things are slowly changing, we still live a very patriarchal culture. Women are allowed to express a variety of emotions, but us guys get the message early on that we are mostly allowed to express anger, but not fear or sadness. The entire concept of F/M spanking is a total rejection of patriarchy, puts the woman in charge, and is an affront to the powers that be.
ReplyDeleteNorton wrote: “The entire concept of F/M spanking is a total rejection of patriarchy, puts the woman in charge, and is an affront to the powers that be.”
DeleteThis is really very insightful. It helps explain the apparent paradox presented by so many males seeking F/M spanking DD relationships and (supposedly) that so relatively few F/M spanking relationships exist. F/M DD is a direct challenge to the prevailing patriarchy culture
The same dynamic probably also helps explain the apparent prevalence of M/F spanking. It strongly supports and is supported by the prevailing patriarchal culture
Alan
I agree with Alan - very insightful re why F/m DD relationships may be so disturbing to some men. It may not be about loss of individual masculinity so much as undermining a patriarchal culture.
DeleteBecause this blog and the lifestyles it explores are a direct challenge to our patriarchal culture, it is a courageous path to follow. Though it is probably a good idea to avoid politics here, it's no surprise that macho, bullying, loud, me first attitudes have become all too popular in our culture. In a more enlightened world, F/M spanking would help curb a lot of that behavior. As I have said before, I am grateful to Dan for creating and maintaining such a unique and thoughtful format to discuss the many aspects of F/M DD in a serious and intellectual manner. There is no way to determine how many couples have bennifited from following it, but my relationship is certainly one of them.
DeleteNorton wrote: “In a more enlightened world, F/M spanking would help curb a lot of that behavior” (referring to bullying, etc. as examples of bad behavior)
DeleteYou are certainly right that men in a female led DD relationship are much less likely to become ensnared in behavior driven by toxic masculinity. And I would speculate that the longer the female led DD goes on ,the fewer toxic masculine traits are present. Where and to the extent female led relationships are thriving today, I have no doubt that many of the worst traits associated with the patriarchy are reduced or eliminated
But much like the people who seek psychological therapy are likely to be those who need it least (a generalization with many exception), my guess is that males who seek and are successful establishing a female led DD relationship are also the least problematic males in terms of their behavior.
I remember especially my former girlfriend who commented so often about this guy or another that he “needed a damm good spanking. And mostly she was right about the “culprits” she described. But I also remember thinking the guy or guys in question would never allow a woman to spank them or acknowledge female authority. The undoubtedly needed DD more that I did But there wasn’t a chance They would get it.
I do think some things have changed since then (well over 20 years ago) and there are now many women who will not tolerate the kind of behavior my girlfriend was ranting about, So maybe now some of those guys who needed a “dammed good spanking” are now getting it and we are moving forward
But it’s a slow slog.
Alan
I agree that those who are most in need of one are the least likely to ask for it, and because it's usually the man who initiates, they probably are far less likely to experience it.
DeleteI don't think F/M DD spanking is necessarily an affront to "the patriarchy". There are probably some other couples in the 4th category of those I listed in the last blog post, i.e. where the husband leads, but the wife is a "check and balance", enhancing his masculinity, rather than taking away from it.
DeleteI don't think "the patriarchy" necessarily always supports M/F DD either. Many traditionalists who would be considered part of "the patriarchy" still view it as a taboo for men to hit women in a way they wouldn't in the opposite direction.
I have no doubt that a marriage using F/M DD long-term will continue to show benefits, i.e. less of "toxic masculinity" and more "real masculinity".
Agreed, a man who is keen to pursue accountability and self-improvement will be more likely to seek out things like DD. With DD still being uncommon, it is not surprising that people who raise the idea are more likely to be the recipient of the spanking: it stands to reason that someone will be reticent about inflicting physical punishment on others.
J
Alan writes "I do think some things have changed since then (well over 20 years ago) and there are now many women who will not tolerate the kind of behavior" and I agree. However I'm not as hopeful that more man get the spankings they clearly need it. What I'm seeing around me is women tying to change there partners in some ineffectual way like nagging or making the scene and then ending the relationship in frustration when that doesn't work. Seeing two marriages of close friends disintegrate because of this within a few month, was one of the reasons we started getting serious about entering into a DD relationship, we suddenly saw similar patterns in our relationship and didn't want this to be us a few years down the road.
DeleteThe idea that a F/M DD relationship is an affront to "the patriarchy" somehow got me thinking about the classic trope of the shrill wife chasing her wimpy husband with a rolling pin, I'm sure we all have seen this at some point. Taken at face value this could be viewed a form of F/M DD but its clearly meant as mockery of "weak men" and I wonder how much images like shape how people perceive DD. The fact that whenever F/M bdsm comes up in mainstream media the male is usually portrayed as a sad looser or victim, also doesn't help popularize DD because this will be the mental picture a lot of people will have when they are first confronted with the idea.
I think we have to be careful about expanding the universe to generalized cultural values. DD doesn't necessarily indicate a matriarchal relationship. My marriage is pretty patriarchal. I am in charge of most everything. DD is a counterbalance to my authority. My wife has some veto power. However, most decisions are mine or ours together. DD is directed at my behavior and my consistent performance of things I'm supposed to do.
DeleteAlan writes "I do think some things have changed since then (well over 20 years ago) and there are now many women who will not tolerate the kind of behavior" and I agree. However I'm not as hopeful that more men get the spankings they need. What I'm seeing instead is women tying to change there partners in some ineffectual way like nagging or making a scene and then ending the relationship in frustration when that doesn't work. Seeing two marriages of close friends disintegrate because of this within a few month, was one of the reasons we started getting serious about entering into a DD relationship, we suddenly saw similar patterns in our relationship and didn't want this to be us a few years down the road.
DeleteThe idea of F/M DD being an affront to the patriarchy also made me think about that old trope of the angry wife chasing her wimpy husband with a rolling pin. At face value this is a depiction of a F/M DD relationship, but is clearly meant as a mockery of "weak men" or as warning to "not let this be you". I think stereotypes like this like this what comes into the minds of people when they first encounter the concept of DD and it shapes their perception.
One other thought I had was that "be a man and own up to your mistakes and face the consequences" is something a lot of people would consider "real masculinity", but only if the consequences fit certain preconceived notions. Taking a punch in the face might be considered totally fine, taking a cane stroke on you ass on the other hand ... .
Hi Markus,
DeleteI absolutely agree that while "real masculinity" certainly entails owning your mistakes and taking the consequences, being spanked, even if it is the result of you "manning up," is NOT going to be seen as masculine at all by the vast majority of people, probably including your loving wife who is swinging the paddle, strap, or cane.
The simple fact is that spanking, corner time, and most of the other punishments we talk about here are much more associated with punishment of children; even if these punishments are no longer used, or at least much less often than before, they still are seen as punishments reserved for children.
So ironically, even as you are doing the manly thing and owning up to your behavior and taking the consequences, you are going to look a lot more childish than manly to anyone who sees it or hears about it.
-ZM
It's a good point about the "childishness" of certain punishments, but I wonder still whether negative views of DD are more about that or about gender. Because, females getting spanked doesn't seem to be seen as reflecting as negatively on them, even though the "childishness" issue would still apply.
DeleteIn my opinion, our perspectives on females being punished "like children" has a lot to do with the socially/culturally instilled beliefs that (1) women are more emotional, and thus (2) women have less control over those emotions -- less mature, like children have less control.
DeleteZM wrote: “being spanked, …is NOT going to be seen as masculine at all by … (most) … including your loving wife who is swinging the paddle, strap, or cane”
DeleteYES! And that has been one of the most embarrassing things about my wife administering a disciplinary spanking and emphasizing that’s what is happening. I know that for the duration of the punishment at least, in her eyes I am not the strong virile husband we both want me to be, but a naughty little boy who has acted in such a way that he needs his bum warmed.
And she has said almost exactly that many times. Once at least she has told me that the “naughty little boy (me) had come out to play again and she was going to teach him how to behave before she was done.
A while ago I realized that --the acute embarrassment of feeling like a naughty little boy whose behavior has made his wife take his pants down—was necessary to make DD work for us, and restore the adult-to-adult relationship my behavior had damaged.
Its counter intuitive in a way that you have to accept that your behavior has been childish before the full adult spousal relationship can be restored. But there is no way for you to feel like an in charge male when you are dangling over her knee with your pants wrapped around your ankles. And if that experience is not part of DD, for us at least DD would not work or not work very well.
Alan
Dan said: " ... It's a good point about the "childishness" of certain punishments, but I wonder still whether negative views of DD are more about that or about gender. …"
DeleteI think as with most things in live its not one or the other but a combination of both and the percentages will differ wildly from person to person. I'm almost certain that in my mostly left-leaning and liberal social circle F/M DD would be considered more acceptable then M/F, for the guys I play soccer with it would be the opposite.
In a sense these are also two sides of the same coin. Being confronted with DD does not fit in most peoples mental model of the world. For some because a man shouldn't be subjugated by a women, for others because an adult shouldn't be treated like a child, for others still because people shouldn't spank each other. It increases their mental load because they somehow have to consolidate what they see with their preconceptions about how the world should work. The feeling that something in the world isn't as it should be can cause stress, even fear and most people do not like it when this happens and look for the path of least resistance to resolve the mental conflict, which unfortunately is often "These people are perverts, or crazy, or not "real man".
I agree with ZM and Alans point that not even "your loving wife who is swinging the paddle" will see your masculinity in the moment. There is definitely a strong guardian / little boy vibe going on when confronts me about my bad behavior and doles out punishments. However I suspect for us it has a lot to do with us just emulating behavioral patterns we experienced as a child, because of a lack of role models for how else a DD interaction could look like. I remember us trying different dynamics when we got started with DD, everything from a strong dominatrix vibe to something more like a court trial, ... this is the clearly established rule you broke ... these are your priors ... what do you have to say in your defense ... I sentence you to ... . Neither of these things worked for us, but me becoming "the little boy in trouble" in these moments does, so that is what we have settled on at least for now. The problem is that this pattern now comes so easy to my wife that it seeps into the rest of our relationship. Usually I don't mind to much or consider it a small price to pay, but every once in a while I have politely remind her that I'm not actually a little boy even if I act like one sometimes.
Markus,
DeleteI don’t know how old your DD relationship is, but I know in ours, when she starts acting like I am. or about to be. “in trouble”, she is firing a warning shot across the bow. In other words ,unless we are just teasing each other , when she starts to talk to me as if I was a naughty little boy, she is moving into disciplinary mode. My former G.F. was even more direct about it. She would say: “you’re close” or “I am getting close”
Alan
Markus, apart from the fact that what my wife does is far more extreme than would be normal for disciplining a naughty child, the dynamics of punishing a naughty little boy never really appealed to us. The dynamics of adult judicial corporal punishment were always more appealing. For one thing, in many (not all) countries, it is only available as a punishment for adult males, so it is hard for either of us to feel that this type of dynamic makes me appear less masculine! This is probably also a reason why M/F DD never appealed to either of us.
DeleteRegarding a cane vs. a punch in the face, a punch in the face was never really a "punishment" in the same way strokes of a cane are.
Agreed regarding F/M BDSM portraying men in this situation as sad losers or victims. It doesn't help. It would be good to see strong and powerfully built men doing this willingly instead!
Caged Lion, a lot of what you described about your marriage being patriarchal is similar to my situation.
Alan, the part about restoring the adult-to-adult relationship that a man's behaviour has damaged, this is an important part of DD that many forget: regarding my military colleague, it was clear to everyone around us that he was notably more happily married than pretty much everyone else. I take the view that there are few things more manly than being the one taking the physical pain to restore harmony in a marriage. Whether or not DD is applied in a "kinky" way, it is hard to argue against a marriage where a man has more intimacy because he takes the pain to restore harmony when needed: whether my military colleague had it better than other married men, I don't know, but anyway.
J
Trying again with more concise wording, as I assume my comment was caught in the spam filter.
DeleteCaged Lion, many of the marital dynamics you have described are similar to ours. Many automatically assume F/M DD translates to the wife being in charge, but that isn't always the case.
Alan, I note what you say about behaviour damaging an adult-to-adult relationship. People often overlook the value of F/M DD from that perspective: a man standing up to the physical pain to restore marital harmony. Few things could be more masculine in my view. My former military colleague was notably more happily married than pretty much every other man around us. Also, DD doesn't have to involve kinky things, but many men have commented that it is much better than the previous pattern of the wife accumulating resentment and therefore withholding sex, so even if F/M DD spanking lead to temporary apparent compromises in masculinity, it can give greater long-term benefits in this area.
Marcus, I agree that it is unhelpful the way F/M BDSM portrays the men involved. I would like to see more strong and powerfully built men willingly going through this. Regarding feeling like a child, my wife and I never really liked the model of punishing a naughty little boy. We always preferred adult judicial corporal punishment. You are no doubt aware that in many (not all) countries, it is only available as a punishment for adult men, making it a model that makes it hard to argue that DD takes away from a man's masculinity. I assume you and your wife have already tried the adult judicial corporal punishment idea?
J
Lots of interesting and insightful comments from Markus and Alan. In spite of all the contradictory stuff around FM DD, at the end of the day, I ultimately must admit that I need and want discipline from my GF. She has been very supportive, and is quite matter of fact about it. She will sometimes remind me that we have a date, referring to an upcoming maintenance spanking. She knows I am very aware of that. She's just letting me know she is thinking of me, and reminding me she is supportive of it. I gave her a tee shirt that says "She Who Must be Obeyed" which is from the wonderful British show "Rumple of the Bailey". Men never comment on it, but women often say they like it.
DeleteNorton, that's good. It is hard to do a DD marriage when one or both spouses has only partial enthusiasm.
DeleteJ
Alan, you said: "I don’t know how old your DD relationship is, but I know in ours, when she starts acting like I am. or about to be. “in trouble”, she is firing a warning shot across the bow. [...] when she starts to talk to me as if I was a naughty little boy, she is moving into disciplinary mode."
DeleteWe started talking about it 4 years ago and did some experimenting, but things really kicked of in 2020 during the covid lock downs. Being locked up in the house together for weeks caused a lot of tensions that we needed to address, so we decided to finally jump into the cold water and get serious.
And I know what you mean. My wife has this way of speaking she uses when one of the kids is in trouble. Very calm voice with just a hint of disappointment. When I hear that directed at me I know I have a spanking comming.
J you wrote: "We always preferred adult judicial corporal punishment."
Could you elaborate on how that looks in practice for you? As I have mentioned, we have tried following the structure of the judical system, as in: If there is no clearly established rule that is broken, there is no punishment. She has to be something specific and objective, e.g. she can't just say she feels I'm not respectful enough, she has to tell be specifically what I did that was disrespectful; We had some guidelines what punishment is appropriate for individual infractions. At some point we briefly had an appeals process, where I could object to her judgment and then had a day to prepare arguments and plead my case. I think it initially appealed to us because it gave us some guard rails and a safety net while we where figuring things out, but we learned quickly that this was both impractical and not really what we wanted. It didn't help that most of the time we felt like bad actors in some amateur judicial drama. That said, I have a feeling this is not what you meant, so I'm curious. While the current "little boy" dynamic is working reasonably well for us, we are always open for suggestions.
You also said: "Regarding a cane vs. a punch in the face, a punch in the face was never really a "punishment" in the same way strokes of a cane are." I agree, but in some situation a punch in the face can be the result of owning up to a mistake to a guy with a short fuse. Ask me how I know.
Norton wrote: "n spite of all the contradictory stuff around FM DD, at the end of the day, I ultimately must admit that I need and want discipline from my GF."
That got me thinking, if I "need" my wife to discipline me. Its certainly good for me and has helped our marriage tremendously, but I think we could still go back to before we started this and make it work if she would want to stop DD tomorrow.
Hi J,
Delete"People often overlook the value of F/M DD from that perspective: a man standing up to the physical pain to restore marital harmony. Few things could be more masculine in my view." - I happen to agree with you. To be willing to endure quite intense physical pain for the sake of the relationship is indeed a masculine thing to do. The part where we don't quite agree is that I think that no matter how masculine the underlying sentiment is, the one being spanked still looks a lot more like a naughty boy than a noble man. But that probably depends on the one who is observing it more than anything else.
-ZM
Markus, regarding your question, I suppose we just don't overdo the roleplay. If we overthink things, we could fall into "analysis paralysis". However, if you want to talk about roleplay, I suppose we just assume that I come to the site of the corporal punishment and all appeals have been exhausted by this point. As I say, I think the setup that has worked best for us is when spankings have a mixture of a direct disciplinary purpose and a "therapeutic" purpose. If there is no link between spankings and bad behaviour at all, it won't have a character-improving effect, but if it is solely DD, there is the potential to overthink and argue with her excessively, as well as forget that the spanking is there to fully restore things between me and her. If I argue and win, but she still feels the issue is unresolved and it therefore festers, then debatably, I have won the battle and lost the war.
DeleteZM, I suppose that depends to a large extent on how the spankings are done. If the spankings are done in the "over-the-knee" position, then it is presumably more likely to look like that. On the other hand, if he is "freestanding", I assume it appears different. Similarly, I assume if the "humiliation" aspect of the DD is reduced, it makes him look less like a naughty boy. The adult judicial corporal punishment model seems to be a good setup for avoiding the "naughty little boy" dynamic.
J
My comment about our patriarchal culture was in response to Dan's pondering about why there are so few pitchers of men displaying genuine emotion in F/M spanking drawings.
ReplyDeleteI doubt it. I am aware of scientific experiments done that show men tend to use a smaller number of facial expressions during a given time in a conversation on average than women do. Also, it is generally expected that men will be stoic.
DeleteJ
Well it’s getting cold where we live so going out to the “ woodshed “ isn’t likely to happen. Dev has threatened to do a discipline session out in the garage with the door open for anyone driving by can see. That would be horrifying . JR
ReplyDeleteYeah, that really would be pretty bad. That would definitely cross a line in our neighborhood. Lots of little kids around.
DeleteWhen we met over twenty years ago we shared an interest in spanking, although very much in the kink world, this was before we adopted DD. We went to a local spanking group quite often so I was quite used to spanking or being spanked with an audience. I note the earlier comment about most men won’t hit a woman. I agree and would never do so except as a spanking and consensually - but as a spanker in a more sexual situation I had the additional condition that I would never hand anything out that I was not also prepared to accept myself. It might have been a different woman at a different time and place but it was important to me that I would accept what I handed out. More recently of course we have practiced DD and only in one direction, and my wife’s view is that punishment is a very private thing and should never have a witness. I don’t entirely agree and can imagine specific situations with the right witness enhancing the ambiance of the punishment, but I don’t make the rules. I agree with others here that there is no point of contact between ault and child spanking, as I’ve said before I didn’t grow up in a spanking environment and didn’t spank my own kids. In fact, in many first-world countries now, spanking a child is illegal. TG
ReplyDeleteYour condition around accepting whatever you handed out is admirable. I suspect it's also pretty rare and maybe mostly confined to the sexual scene you're talking about? It seems like for most (not all) in the DD part of the lifestyle, the distinction between spanker and spankee is a lot more hard-wired, with few true switches and few disciplinarians who would actually take that kind of spanking. My wife is very clear that she has absolutely no interest in being on the receiving end.
Delete“My wife is very clear that she has absolutely no interest in being on the receiving end.”
DeleteExactly the same here and with both women who have spanked me for discipline. My former G.F. did try it once I think ( maybe twice) and decided we would not be doing that again. As I remember, she was curious about it, but the actual experience, she did not like at all
My wife was very clear about it from the beginning. She would be doing any spanking and discipline that happened and she felt very strongly about that (which was fine with me) .She did spank me once or twice (not many times) with the paddle her former husband had used on her, which I think was a very strong statement she wanted to send.
I received the message loud and clear.
Alan
That definitely is a strong statement about taking back power. It also raises another issue for me, namely being spanked with implements you know have been used on others. Our black ebony hairbrush was bought used. I don't know whether it was used on someone else's butt, but it certainly could have been. Tomy has also been kind enough to give me a few implements from his and Aunt Kay's personal collection, and those I am quite sure have been used on other males, including him. There is something kind of titillating for me about that.
DeleteBTW, I'm about mid-way through the A Billion Wicked Thoughts book. Definitely worth a read.
I don't mind the idea of instruments being used on multiple people like that. I quite like the idea of say instruments used on me going into storage and then being given as "family heirlooms" to our children several years down the line when they get married and getting passed down through the generations!
DeleteMy wife would never consider receiving M/F DD discipline from me and I would never consider applying it to her.
J
Considering the number of vendors actively selling the “tools of the trade” plus the number of motivated husbands handy enough to craft a paddle or strap, there must be literally thousands of spanking paraphernalia around, not being used currently, but once well used. Not all of these of course have been used in a serious DD relationship and fewer still in a DD F/M relationship.
DeleteAnd sadly, I am guessing many have been lost or destroyed. But there must be more than a few DD weathered paddles or straps that have worked their way back into circulation. The paddle my wife used on me, that her ex-husband used on her technically qualifies. But I am thinking of spanking tools once used by a DD couple, but now owned by a different couple. Anyone know any stories?
Alan
I definitely see the appeal of having a spanking implement that was passed down through generations of DD relationships, as it would imply that DD is something that is accepted and can be openly discussed inside the family. At the minimum its an affirmation that there are other people in the same situation, which always is a comforting thought. Sadly all our spanking implements are new, with one exception. When we started getting serious about our DD relationship my wife "liberated" the carpet beater her parents used on her from their basement and now uses it on me. But that is obviously not the same.
DeleteWhen my mother died, my sisters and I went through her things and found the hairbrush she had often used on me. My older sister immediately suggested I have it. It had been used on me much more than the girls, but I wondered if she also suspected I was in a DD relationship. I showed it to my wife. She asked me if I wanted her to use it on me. I said maybe for catharsis, to help me deal with my grief. That is what we did. She helped me convert emotional pain to physical pain, which I found easier to release. Only time I ever cried hard during a spanking. We then put the paddle away, never to be used on me again but full of mom memories.
DeleteKOJ
We all could adapt the fraternity-sorority tradition so that everyone receiving the paddle signs it with their first name and year of first adult application. Now wouldn't that be an interesting family heirloom!
DeleteKOJ
KOJ, I ran that idea by my wife and she thinks it is a very good one, which we will implement soon, so many thanks! We are going one step further though. We are getting the main spanking paddle engraved instead of just signed. All going well, it can be passed to whichever son/daughter at the right time.
DeleteJ
There's a great KD Pierre cartoon about a couple inadvertently finding out about grandma's spanking fetish. Third cartoon on this page:http://mattmansfigures.homestead.com/colcartlg.html
DeleteKOJ: I suspect you were in a fraternity a generation ahead of me. We got paddles, but no spanking accompanying them. Same with my wife's sorority paddle. I hadn't thought about it until now, but the fact that I have no recollection of what I did with my fraternity paddle other than at some point I must have thrown it away, demonstrates that I truly didn't have any sort of spanking fetish earlier in life. I own a variety of paddles now and definitely have an erotic reaction to see paddles, but apparently not back then.
My former GF had a rather formidable sorority paddle she had kept long past college days. If I ever knew her history with it before meeting me, I have forgotten it. But I know she brought it out pretty early in our relationship and for issues that she considered very serious- or on one occasion when she was enraged by my behavior. I wish now I had asked her more about it and how it had been used before meeting me. I remember one thing very well and that is she was very comfortable and competent using it and it was a long hardwood relatively thick paddle. I really wish I had asked her more about it but I probably was more focused on discouraging her from using it.
DeleteAlan
Dan writes: “I have no recollection of what I did with my fraternity paddle other than at some point I must have thrown it away, demonstrates that I truly didn't have any sort of spanking fetish earlier in life”
DeleteIt may be that your “fetish”, like mine and many others on the is blog is more for female authority than spanking per se. I had a similar fraternity experience and remember no erotic association at all. But in a male fraternity, a heterosexual would probably incur few environmental “triggers” to awaken a spanking fetish.
In fact, when I think about it, until the internet there were very few environmental triggers around to trigger a male heterosexual’s interest in F/M spanking.
Some men attribute their trigger to being spanked by a female when young. I think my own might have been seeing male friends spanked while growing up. But if by chance a genetic “spanko doesn’t intersect with a spanking environment, the trigger might come much later in life or maybe not at all
Alan
That makes a lot of sense. There definitely were no "female authority" triggers in my all-male fraternity.
DeleteDan, I like the cartoon you referred to. I wonder if our children will react in a similar way when they reach adulthood, and my wife tells them about how she used to spank me all those years ago and shows them the instruments? Maybe that would be when she is counselling one of our sons about married life shortly before his wedding say?
DeleteKOJ, the main spanking paddle is now engraved, so many thanks again for the situation! I wonder how it will be received several generations down the line when a few names have accumulated!
Alan, various influences with me. Spanking existed in my home. Also, in my late teen years, what I and some friends did was not too far removed from the programme "Jackass". College and the military were obviously even more extreme!
J
If I go before my wife, as is common given the differences in male and female average life expectancy, I wonder whether she'll keep the spanking implements or throw them out given concerns about kids finding them. But, in any event, I've tried to leave at least one shocker for the kids as they are going through my things. There is a book on one of our book shelves whose jacket suggests it is a well-known book by an Enlightenment philosopher. Anyone who opens it, however, will find it is a book of very pornographic sketches by an English artist named Tom Poulton. I've put little tap flags on a couple of the pages in hopes that someone will actually take a look at the book as they are packing up my stuff after I've gone. It will give them at least one funny anecdote to remember me by.
DeleteAll of this talk of spanking implements used on others reminded me of something I forgot. My ex-wife (who unfortunately was very, very opposed to spanking so refused to participate in any way), got some boxes from one of her fellow teachers who was retiring early due to some windfall of some sort. Anyway, she brought them home, and one of the things in one of the boxes was a school paddle. There was just something about looking at it and knowing that it had been used - probably quite a few times - for actual school punishments. I was so sad when my ex-wife threw it away.
Delete-ZM
ZM, agreed, shame about the paddle.
DeleteDan, thanks for mentioning Tom Poulton. I looked him up and his work looks interesting. I also think it is more than likely that my wife will outlive me (I can't see why I would want to outlive her). On the other hand, when I am long gone, and she passes the main paddle to one of our children as an heirloom to be used for the same purpose, I don't want her to shock the child in question, as this risks putting them off running married life in a similar way. I would rather F/M DD just seemed normal.
J
I realize it is late in this thread to bring up a different nuance, but it just occured to me. My wife is very casual about where she leaves paddles and straps. We have a lot of both (my fault and the gifts from female BDSM bottoms over the years). We don't entertain socially. I guess we are both loners. But various workers have come to take care of necessary fixes and installations. I'm sure that some have seen spanking implements.
ReplyDeleteWhen we moved from the East Coast, the long-distance mover had to inspect the contents of boxes and containers. We had a large, locking container filled with all sorts of BDSM toys and spanking implements. We were unhappy about showing him. My wife finally did, and he was fascinated and tried to get my wife to spank him. I guess that was better than him showing disgust.
Anyway, I think that NOT hiding spanking implements is a form of telling people what you do. By the way, the mover asked if I spanked my wife. When she said no, he got excited.
The worst thing I experienced in this regard was when we ordered some spanking implements in U.S. . We had ordered there before, but for some reason the package got held up by customs, so I had to got to the custom office in person where a customs official opened it in public, with other people standing waiting for there turn. Then they inspected all the items to determine their value and see if there are any import restrictions. At one point I had to show them on the website that a paddle wasn't made from some exotic wood. However the worst part was when they asked me what I intended to use the implements for. Apparently there are some rule that you can't import items that are meant for torture, as in some dictator torturing their opponents, and they basically just wanted me to say that this is not the case. Unfortunately they only gave me this explanation after the fact, so I got nervous and told them the truth. I'm sure "for use in the bedroom" or "for fun" would have been sufficient, but I ended up saying "My wife uses it to discipline me." in a way that made it very obvious this wasn't a joke. Not sure which one of us was more embarrassed, but to his credit aside from a nervous laugh the customs officer remained very professional. I was very relieved when I was finally out of the door, that has to be one of the most embarrassing moments of my life. My wife laughed so hard she almost wet herself, when I told her the story.
ReplyDeleteYou're a braver man than I. I probably would have just abandoned them at the customs office.
DeleteHad I known how this would play out I probably would have. I kind of expected to just show the invoice, pay the taxes and be on my way. Boy was I wrong.
DeleteHi Markus,
DeleteThanks for the great story. It really resonated with me, because we live outside the USA, but all the spanking tools we have bought, with the exception of things like bath brushes and other common items, we have bought in America and brought back with us. Each time we have done so, it has been a huge fear that the customs people will stop us for a random inspection. This is probably the biggest thing that has caused me to not order anything and have it sent directly here as well.
-ZM
For my marriage, because I asked her to spank me and said I would never refuse, I was sort of giving consent to "anywhere, any time, for any reason" from the beginning. Since my wife was following in my mother's footsteps, we considered that she had the total authority of a "parent," and in fact she began calling the punishments "mothrrly guidance."
ReplyDeleteHowever we quickly agreed on some typical guidelines, including keeping our DD private so as to not affect children or our careers. But when we retired she changed that guideline unilaterally. I did not object because by that time I had years of "training." We did briefly discuss that there would not be witnesses but I did not realize until the fateful party that she meant no visual witnesses but that aural "witnessing" was ok. She interpreted witness as "to see for oneself" while I took it as "to take note of."
While I was shocked when it happened, I agreed that she had the authority to ramp up her motherly guidance and define witnessing more narrowly than I had. The prospect of semi-public punishment -- including occasional questions whether I needed a repeat performance -- improved my behavior more than any other aspect of our DD.
KOJ
We never had an express conversation, at least as far as I recall, about keeping DD private because of kids and careers. But, it was one of those things that we never really needed to discuss because it was just assumed. We were both pretty uptight about kids knowing, though over time that became more of an issue for her than for me, and we both were in careers in which others knowing about something like DD could have had real, negative implications.
DeleteI suspect your trajectory isn't uncommon among couples who agree to some variant of "anytime, anywhere, for any reason." In the early stages, it's probably a pretty abstract arrangement, because both parties recognize practical restrictions like kids and careers. Later, when those things are less of a concern, the wide-open formal arrangement takes on increasingly real dimensions.
I also think one really big turning point for many DD relationships is when the wife starts exploring the "any reason" grant of authority. The first time you get spanked for something you didn't expressly agree you would be spanked for is a game changer. Though, I suspect your wife's decision to expand the "anywhere" and "anytime" parts is the exception and not the rule.
My wife and I have always had the "any reason" understanding, but not the "any time" understanding. That said, we keep our eyes open for signs of things changing in terms of how it might be received. I suppose the ideal is that it is treated like sex: everyone assumes married couples are generally sexually active with each other, but that doesn't mean others need to know the details.
DeleteJ
J,
Delete“Any reason” in my opinion, is probably essential for “real” DD. But anyplace can be problematical, although in practice, not so much, because it doesn’t happen so much. KOJ’s wife took him to where the “rubber” hits the road” and it seems like it worked for them maybe nowhere as much as giving her the credibility to threaten a repeat if…
However as discussed extensively here. “anyplace “even as a concept does raise a lot of unique issues. If F/M does ever become more generally accepted even as a kink, I can see many more wives using that authority. Many women in a DD relationship do enjoy showing their authority -and it is hard to imagine a more dramatic way to do it.
Alan
Alan, agreed that "any reason" is essential for "real" DD. If the husband can constrict the reasons, it makes it much easier for him to not accept accountability and argue his way out, based on technicalities.
DeleteEven if F/M DD is accepted as a kink, I still anticipate it will never be truly "any place" or "any time", because there will be some circumstances where it is not acceptable, e.g. around minors, in the workplace etc.
That said, I would definitely be pleased to see more women receiving and using authority to administer F/M DD, just like you (and regular commenters here)!
J
My wife truly enjoyed her authority and, later, showing it off. When we started I thought I would be the one always getting aroused and she would merely tolerate DD, maybe with an occasional power trip thrill. But after a few years it was pretty much the other way around. But it was exciting for me to watch her get excited by her authority. Sure brought her out of her shell!
DeleteKOJ
KOJ wrote: it was exciting for me to watch her get excited by her authority. Sure brought her out of her shell!”
DeleteSeeing this (albeit less dramatically than KOJ has) was an unexpected reward of entering a DD relationship. It also made me much more conscious of how repressed in their dominance and sexuality, some (many?) women are. But seeing is believing. And as you see a formerly mild, even meek woman begin to feel and exercise their authority (maybe for the first time), it is eye opening
Alan
I don't know whether my wife was "meek," but she definitely had some assertiveness challenges. That's gotten much better. I'm not sure how it compares to KOJ's wife, but she clearly is getting increasingly excited by her own authority and, very much like KOJ's wife, retirement seemed to really amp that up.
DeleteReading some of the comments above I started to wonder what "any reason" means specifically to the different posters. Like does it mean any reason the man has given through something he did or did not do? Is "i had a bad day at the office" a reason? Is "its been to long since your spanking" one? Or is there an implied "or for no reason at all" that just isn't spoken out loud?
DeleteI'm firmly in the "any reason" means there has to be some bad behavior on my part camp. The punishment should be reaction to something I did that doesn't meets her expectations and "any reason" just means that her expectations aren't open for debate anymore. For me thats kind of what distinguishes DD from BDSM. We are not there yet in our relationship, but we are gradually moving in that direction. At the beginning we focused on some very specific topics and expanded from there. At the moment we still discuss it when she wants to introduce new rules for me and find a compromise, if there is some disagreement. However once a rule is established she has final say on whether or not I have broken a rule and what the appropriate punishment is.
I'm not so sure about "any time" and "anywhere" part. Instinctively this feels wrong, as other have mentioned there are obvious times and places where a spanking wouldn't be appropriate. But that is probably taking the words more literal then they are meant. I think there is an unspoken "... she thinks its appropriate" qualifier to the "any time, anywhere and for any reason" that makes all the difference. We are not there yet, maybe we never will but I could at least see myself commit to that on day - maybe even go so far and add an "anyhow" - because I trust my wife not to do anything that is harmful to me or our family.
Delete"I'm firmly in the "any reason" means there has to be some bad behavior on my part camp. The punishment should be reaction to something I did that doesn't meets her expectations and "any reason" just means that her expectations aren't open for debate anymore. For me thats kind of what distinguishes DD from BDSM.
Couldn't have said it better myself. The further something gets from a spanking for actual bad conduct, the less appeal it has for me and the more it starts feeling like S&M.
Marcus said: “Reading some of the comments above I started to wonder what "any reason" means …”
DeleteThere may be a little overthinking here, or maybe I am missing some nuance others see. For me “any reason” simply means that you implicitly trust your wife to be fair, prudent and loving as well as to remember that DD is all about protecting and enhancing the relationship.
One doesn’t expect her to be nutty, extreme or cruel, and if she is, none of the rest of it would work very long. The “any reason” rule is necessary to give her meaningful power to become and act as your disciplinarian.
It means you don’t get to decide when she punishes you or what she thinks requires punishment – no long arguments or debates and swift compliance with her commands, particularly with regard to your behavior and discipline.
My former GF called arguing about it “disciplinary defiance”. Before we agreed to “any reason”, I could always find and argue a reason why I should not be punished or was not guilty of the behavior she was correcting and it almost wrecked DD for us.
Ultimately “any reason” means she has the final word about DD, and you have agreed to obey her even when you don’t want to or think she is wrong. And a guy accepts “any reason” to show her how serious you are about DD -and to give her the authority she needs to make it successful
Alan
Allan wrote:
Delete"The 'any reason' rule is necessary to give her meaningful power to become and act as your disciplinarian."
"And a guy accepts “any reason” to show her how serious you are about DD -and to give her the authority she needs to make it successful."
Absolutely agree! The only thing I might add is how important this "acceptance" and attitude by the male in preserving and reinforcing the woman's "self confidence."
"It means you don’t get to decide when she punishes you or what she thinks requires punishment – no long arguments or debates and swift compliance with her commands, particularly with regard to your behavior and discipline."
DeleteAlan, I agree with this, but inherent in it is that the decision is, in fact, about punishment, behavior, and discipline. I think the nuance Markus was getting at is whether "for any reason" includes things that are not, in fact, disciplinary. Like, as he said, "I had a bad day at the office." As a practical matter, I doubt that happens very often but, Markus is right that there have been commenters here who have referred to being OK with spankings that have more to do with the wife's desire to spank at that moment than about anything the husband has done to actually deserve a spanking. As long as that's part of what he's agreed to, I don't condemn it; to each his own. But, I also don't think it has a thing to do with domestic discipline, and the category it seems to fit the best with is sadism.
Maintenance spankings get tricky though. As I said, the further removed something is from a 1:1 correspondence between particular behavior and a particular punishment, the less interest I personally have in it. But, I can see the argument for maintenance in a DD relationship to the extent it's helping reinforce roles. It depends a lot on the motivation.
J. also mentioned "therapeutic spankings," from a story on the DWC website. Personally, I don't see those as really disciplinary in nature. I don't doubt they can and do serve some kind of emotional need, but that doesn't mean they really have anything to do with discipline.
Dan wrote: “the nuance Markus was getting at is whether "for any reason" includes things that are not, in fact, disciplinary. Like, “I had a bad day at the office. … I also don't think it has a thing to do with domestic discipline, and the category it seems to fit the best with is sadism.”
DeleteYour point goes to the essence of trusting your wife to use her authority fairly and prudently. However, in the real and complicated world we all live in, a “bad day” (for example) could easily amplify and distort a wife’s interpretation and reaction to a husbands behavior.
So that she decides to discipline him when in fact on a “normal day” she might laugh something off. To me that is just being human on her part -and a collateral cost to him of committing to a DD relationship.
This has happened to me, not often, but often enough that I know I have been spanked mainly because she was in a bad mood. Fair? No! Perfect? Hardly!
But it is part of being married and in a DD relationship. We have had for a long a “safety valve” to handle situations like that. I have some, but limited latitude to protest an impending spanking as long as it is civil in an obedient tone. But after any spanking I can engage and challenge her decision to spank and the reasons for it with no limits.
And there have been apologies from her during some of these “post -action” discussions. But apology or not I have never felt she was acting sadistically even when the punishment was blatantly unfair. She was simply being human
Alan
Alan, I don't think we're actually disagreeing. Your real-life situations seem to be about judgment calls on whether something merits a spanking and about whether something like a temporary mood might influence those judgment calls. I totally agree that wives are humans and that if you want to be in a successful DD relationship you probably need to understand and accept that you may be on the losing side of some such judgment calls.
DeleteConversely, I think the examples Markus was focusing on (though he obviously can tell me I'm wrong) are spankings that really aren't tied to behavior, particularly his reference to "for no reason at all" perhaps being an unstated subset of "for any reason."
I agree with you that it all comes down to trust and having a track record of good judgment. In relation to Markus' specific concern though, for me "for any reason" does *not* include an unstated "for no reason at all." Instead, it has an unstated, "for any reason as long as it's actually tied to some disciplinary judgment call." If there actually was a history of arbitrary for "because I feel like it" orders happening, I wouldn't be in a DD relationship very long. But, like you, that just wouldn't be anything that would happen in the real world for me, for two reasons. First, my wife isn't the type to do anything like that. Second, if she was, I never would have suggested a DD relationship to her in the first place. It hasn't happened in a while, but we used to have a frequent commenter here who would bring up examples of pretty arbitrary or petty disciplinary decisions by his wife. I always wanted to ask, "Why in the hell would you voluntarily give a person with this poor judgment and poor leadership skills power over you??" Though, I never did actually ask.
This was a great conversation thread about "for any reason." I find myself agreeing with everyone, so I think you all were agreeing with each other, whether you thought you did or not! My wife has the authority to spank me anytime she wants to. However, if it is going to be a "real" spanking, then the reason needs to be real as well, not something that she just makes up. If she wants to spank me because she feels like it, or just to remind me that she can, that is OK, as long as she doesn't try to tie it to some fake infraction. To be clear, I don't really like it when she spanks me for no reason at all, but she gets off on doing it sometimes, and in the end there must be give and take.
Delete-ZM
I may have mentioned this before, and others have too, but I can't remember a time when I disagreed with her reason for punishing me by the end of the comforting aftercare. I may have disagreed at the beginning of the punishment (though "backtalk" earned me extra), seldom by the end of the punishment (which usually included questions and scolding that made her reasons "painfully" clear), and never by the end of the incredibly loving aftercare (which was not overtly sexual but had some overtones such as being held to her breasts).
ReplyDeleteKOJ
KOJ, I don't preoccupy myself so much these days with whether or not I agree with it. I see all my spankings as having some level of "therapeutic" element to them, according to the definition given in "A Husband's Essay" at http://www.auntkaysdwc.com/ in the "Real People" section. In a nutshell, what it says is that a "therapeutic spanking" is about clearing the air, irrespective of the details of who is right and wrong. This is not to say that there isn't a strong disciplinary element to my spankings and if I have done something specific that is wrong, yes, I should be punished for it. However, the "hybrid" nature helps avoid over-analysis. I personally think if all men receiving F/M DD viewed spankings that way, it would make it easier to avoid unnecessary analysis of the rights and wrongs. Thoughts?
DeleteJ
I have shared some of that essay with my GF, and she liked the concept. It basically justifies her giving occasional hard spankings that may have nothing to do with bad behavior. In that way, it is similar to maintenance spanking, and it helps re-establish her authority in the relationship. We practice weekly maintenance spanking, and I find I get pretty anxious when it doesn't happen. They used to last just 3 or 4 minutes, but we have found they are more effective when they go for at least 7 minutes or longer. It is definitely a sound paddling, but the spanking isn't as hard as the therapeutic spanking described in the Husband's Essay, which is described as having the same force as a disciplinary one. She would prefer to avoid giving such a hard paddling, and I will do my best to avoid them. However, she will give them when I need them, which is not often these days.
ReplyDeleteFYI, some engineers at Blogger are clearly fucking with the spam algorithms again. This time, it's even more arbitrary than usual. Comments are somehow being diverted to spam minutes, hours and even days after they were already published. And, it's even diverted two of MY own comments to spam. Unlike the last few times, most comments are getting through, but it's flagging two or three a day.
ReplyDeleteHi Dan,
ReplyDeleteJust a few comments on what you wrote this week.
"Some thoughts just seem to like paper." - 100% agree! I think that part of it is that when you use a computer, it is easy to start editing what you wrote and trying to make it perfect, instead of just continuing with writing your thoughts.
"Some may say that’s about fearing the consequences and not fearing the spouse, but if the spouse is determining and applying the consequences, that seems like splitting hairs." - I don't fear my spouse in the way that I might if she didn't have such deep love for me, but I do fear her in the sense that if she says she is going to do something, then it WILL happen. I guess this isn't always true, since she has forgotten some spankings now and then, but if she really cares about something, she is unstoppable.
"I really believe that one key to effective discipline is for the recipient to know that he absolutely will not win in a power struggle." - Again, agree completely. Anything related to inevitability really resonates with me.
"Or, as Alan notes, there are limits on how far spankings can go.” – So true. There are simply limits in just how hard, long, or frequent spankings can be, especially if one is not intending to leave permanent damage.
“…does she ramp things up in some other way? Non-spanking punishments? Something added to the spankings, like doing it in front of a window or where someone might overhear? Perhaps some more severe form of humbling or public embarrassment?" - There are so many forms of non-spanking punishments, like mouthsoaping, kneeling on rice, loss of privileges, early bedtimes, pegging, enemas, writing lines, extra chores, etc. My wife has never really utilized any of these, so I am not sure how I would respond. Maybe that is why she has never used any of them, because she isn’t sure either.
It is so interesting that while you opened the door to talking about all kinds of alternative punishments, instead everyone (including me) has had such a razor-sharp focus on public embarrassment, whether for or against it! I guess it is not surprising, because public embarrassment has been an element of many if not most of the punishments employed throughout history. We are naturally social beings, so we care A LOT about what other people think, whether we want to or not.
“Conversely, perhaps there is some behavior that you want her to help you fix but current efforts have not been successful. Is there something she could do that you fear enough that it might actually result in a real change if she did it or threatened it?” – For some reason, this question really reminds me of NXIVM. They really held on to the idea that any change was possible, if the price of not changing was high enough. So the idea was that they held “collateral” – almost always something that if it became known would be highly embarrassing and may cause lots of real-life problems. As long as you did what you committed to do, your secrets were safe, but if not… I think it says something that they did use things like spankings – at least according to the documentary – but the big motivator for change was avoiding public embarrassment.
-ZM
"It is so interesting that while you opened the door to talking about all kinds of alternative punishments, instead everyone (including me) has had such a razor-sharp focus on public embarrassment, whether for or against it!" Yeah, I had the same reaction. The topic wasn't remotely limited to witnesses and openness to others, but that's where virtually the entire conversation went. It's definitely a BIG thing for participants on this blog.
DeleteI too had NXIVM in the back of my mind when writing this topic. The second season of HBO's "The Vow" started recently, and I instantly was back into thinking about some of the facets of their program. Now that I've had more time to absorb some of the books and press coverage of the trial, I do get and don't contest that the leader, Keith Raniere, is a scumbag. But, that doesn't mean that elements of the program weren't both compelling and effective (And, it's not clear to me how much of it he actually designed, versus his partner Nancy Salzman, who actually had way more training than him in NEP and performance psychology.) At bottom, it's program really was all about this week's topic -- if there is some behavior you want to change or some improvement you want to make, what are you willing to do to *really* make it happen?