"Sometimes we have to step out of our comfort zones. We have to break the rules. And we have to discover the sensuality of fear. We need to face it, challenge it, dance with it." -- Kyra Davis
Hello all. Welcome back to the Disciplinary Couple’s Club. Our weekly gathering of men and women who are in, or would like to be in, Domestic Discipline relationships.
I hope you all had a great week. Mine wasn’t as productive as the week before, but that’s OK. Sometimes, you just need some time off.
My week also started with an encounter that was totally normal in most respects but was an amusing twist on our eemingly never-ending fascination with witnesses.
I got an email
out of the blue from someone I worked around at my last gig. We weren’t super close, but we liked each
other and shared some hobbies. Anyway,
he was going to be passing through the town where we own a condo we escape to
on the weekends and asked whether there was any chance I’d be around that day
and up for having breakfast. I hadn’t
planned to be there, but I hadn’t seen him in a while, so I decided to make the
drive up to meet him.
There was nothing out
of the ordinary about the breakfast. It
was fun catching up. What was odd in the
context of all our “witness” and “others” conversations is that this is a guy whom
I dreamed about spanking me! I've seen him since that dream, but not in a context where we were sitting around having a conversation together one-on-one.
I’ve related here that I don’t dream about spanking very often, which is itself kind of odd given how big a part of my life DD has become. So, when it does happen, I tend to remember the dreams. I wrote about this particular dream here back in 2019, but I’ll describe it again:
I had a dream that probably speaks volumes about what I find really threatening. I dreamed I was at a large gathering of business colleagues. It may have been a holiday party or something like that. But, unlike a normal work party, I also had family members in attendance, including both my wife and my father. While the details are sketchy, someone had ordered me to be spanked for some office misbehavior. It was to be done by our office manager, who is a man. As he was attempting to take me to an adjacent room to spank me, I turned to my wife, who was sitting at a table with some other people from work. I asked her to intercede. I seemed to think there was something very unfair about the spanking, and I was very agitated and intent on pleading my case.
Instead, she looked up from her conversation, and directed me very dismissively to run along and get it over with. My father was sitting at a nearby table, and he too seemed fully on board with my forthcoming punishment. He told me this one would be of a “totally different order” than anything I had experienced before. I was sullen and angry, though my concern seemed to be not so much the spanking itself but, rather, that everyone would know it was happening and might be able to overhear it. Our manager took me out of the room, and in the odd manner of dreams I didn’t really experience the spanking from a first-person perspective, but I could hear myself getting spanked hard and crying.
The guy I was having breakfast with was the office manager who, in my dream, took me out for the spanking.
As I sat there having breakfast with this guy, two thoughts hit me. First, it was a very weird angle on the conversations we've had here about how we would feel interacting with someone who had witnessed one of our spankings or at least knows about them. In this case, the guy actually gave me one, but only in my dream.
Second, I still cannot for the life of me figure out why my subconscious
picked this particular person as the spanker in that dream. He’s totally non-threatening. The
relationship we had was non-hierarchical, though technically I would have
outranked him by a lot. So, very odd all
around.
None of that has anything to do with today’s topic but, rather, was more of an interesting anecdote I’m using partially for space-filler, since I don’t have a very coherent topic in mind for this week.
Speaking of which, I am still loving October and this whole season, for many reasons not the least of which is it gives me an opportunity to post Halloween and autumn-themed memes here on the blog.
As is often the case, we
did seem to cover a lot of ground last week with what I thought was a pretty
narrow topic. Surprises led to
discussions about rules, strictness, contrition, and penance, among others.
With respect to the correlation between contrition and spanking, TG had this observation, which resonates with me.
“I think if there’s a relationship at all between contrition and punishment, it’s inverse. I had a situation last week where the bottom line was that what I said and did really upset her, although she was not directly involved - it was related to kids and grand kids. She’s suffering from a really nasty cold at the moment so it’s on hold, but there’s a punishment coming my way when she feels better. Here’s the thing though, she was prepared to see this as outside the scope of our marriage DD and move on. I’m feeling really bad about it and have said that I need the punishment to “wash it away” and move past it myself. So contrition and punishment go hand in hand here. Conversely, I think if I didn’t feel bad about it and she insisted on punishing me, I can’t imagine refusing it, but I think my reaction would be (inner) anger at being - what I would think was - unreasonably punished, rather than the feeling that I screwed up, it’s been dealt with and we can move on.”
Whenever possible, I like to
let one topic transition into another based on reader comments, and I felt TG’s
comment (especially the part in bold), while focused on contrition, raised an
issue that was coming through in different ways in a few other comments. Here are a few other illustrations of the
point I’ll get to with this topic:
"When you enter a DD relationship your behavior is being judged by your wife or girlfriend. So, her judgement really determines if your behavior is well disciplined or not. And you find yourself being evaluated for things you probably never considered important before such as not cleaning up a mess, missing a chore or disobeying a “minor rule.” The last spanking, I got was for spilling my coffee in three spots and not cleaning it up while carrying it from the kitchen to my office working on an important project. I was very self-disciplined about finishing the project but my wife felt she had to supply the discipline for my disrespect for her rules about the house." – Alan
“Currently, I’ve gone a few weeks without a spanking, but that will change this week. I messed up, first not meeting a goal for maintenance on Saturday and then leaving my coffee mug in the bathroom this morning. I will be spanked on Monday and Tuesday. – DWC Fred
“I see such situations as part of the continuum of Disciplinary Wives expanding their powers. Most DW's begin with specific rules and behavior in the home and between the couple. These are then extended to respect and consideration for the wife's feelings. Later, these are extended to the wife's power of correction of the husband's moods. Often in parallel with this power extension, the wife starts controlling husband's interactions with "third parties" when in the wife's presence. Continuing further, the wife extends her power to situations where the husband's interactions with third parties that might "somehow" effect the wife's feeling. (Somewhere in this "power progression," the couple will have adopted the "wife can 'discipline anytime, anywhere for any reason' dynamic."” – Donn
The topic that I’m extracting from these disparate comments is a little amorphous, but it’s related to Donn’s observation about the “continuum of Disciplinary Wives expanding their powers.” He also characterized it as a “power progression.” Also, is Alan right that "When you enter a DD relationship your behavior is being judged by your wife or girlfriend. So, her judgement really determines if your behavior is well disciplined or not"?
For us, I think there was a difference between theory and practice. We did agree to some offenses that were presumptively punishable and even to a presumptive minimum number of swats for each. But, that “system” was really designed to be a confidence builder and wasn't meant to limit her authority to punish outside those agreed-upon offenses. I think that pretty early on, perhaps even in our very first discussion about trying DD, I proposed that the “rule” should be “for any reason.”
That was the theory. In actual practice, it’s been a lot slower and more of a process, similar to what Donn describes but with somewhat different steps.
Also, in theory, Alan is right that Anne is the judge about whether my behavior reflects the kind of discipline she expects. In practice though, she often asks whether I think something rose to the level of deserving a spanking. In fact, it happened just last week.
I was also intrigued by how Alan and DWC Fred’s coffee-related offenses fit into the power progression. Have things like misplacing coffee cups and spilling coffee on the floor without cleaning it up been identified specifically as spankable offenses, i.e., made the subject of a rule, the breach of which would lead to punishment?
Are most of the rules that clear? Or, were those concrete examples of some less concrete standard, like “everything in its place” or “clean up your messes”? In relation to Donn’s “progression of power” theory, were these very concrete, everyday behavioral issues around sloppiness or forgetfulness deemed spankable from the beginning, or did that evolve over time?
Or, were they ever identified as spankable? Maybe they were spanked for them because at some point--perhaps even in the moment--she decided to make those particular acts subject to her “for any reason” authority?
For those who have gotten to
that “anytime, anywhere, for any reason” (or some variation of it) end of the continuum, how has that worked out?
Do you end up agreeing that the exercise of authority was “right” most
of the time? Or, have you experienced something like what TG describes as a likely
reaction when one doesn’t feel contrition, i.e., an angry or resentful feeling
that a punishment wasn’t “fair,” even if by definition it fits within that “for
any reason” grant of authority? In other
words, it’s all well and good to say, particularly at the onset of a DD
relationship, that her authority is virtually wide open, but what happens when
the proverbial rubber meets the road?
I hope you all have a great week. I leave you with this pic of a couple in Halloween costumes, which makes me laugh every time I see it.
When we set up our FLR and drafting our agreement, we included the 'anytime', 'anyplace' and 'any reason' paragraph and I consented to the concept. In our case I think some of that was due to an extensive training period for me. I had been in a 24/7 FLR previously and been trained as a house submissive, but by a different woman. We both felt some additional training was necessary to mold me into HER submissive. It has worked well for us as evidenced by our long lasting FLR. I have never felt any anger about being unfairly punished and agree that every spanking was just. The extent of the spanking may be up for discussion, but discussion is not allowed here. I cannot contest any spanking, at any time or anyplace or for any reason. It is the way we began and have continued for over 12 years and the way I want things to go on in the future.
ReplyDelete"I have never felt any anger about being unfairly punished and agree that every spanking was just." I definitely don't have that level of acceptance and, given my authoritarian tendencies, I doubt I ever could.
DeleteWe’re not to the anytime, anywhere, for anything level yet, but as I commented yesterday Ann has expanded into spanking me for lack of communication.
ReplyDeleteThat’s a big change!! I can look and see whether I’ve left my socks or a glass in the family room, or my dirty underwear on the bathroom floor, but “not communicating?” That’s totally Ann’s discretion. I’m glad, I guess, but my bottom is awfully sore.
That's definitely part of what I was getting at with this topic, Fred, even if I didn't articulate it very well. Clear rules at least have the advantage of being easier to know when you're complying. Things like "not communicating" are obviously way more of a judgment call. I'm not saying that's bad. I just wanted to explore how much the DD relationships here are oriented around more concrete rules versus more subjective standards.
DeleteDan said: “I just wanted to explore how much the DD relationships here are oriented around more concrete rules versus more subjective standards.”
DeleteI hope most of us try to answer this question because not only is it interesting but the answer for each individual goes a long way to mapping out the real contours of DD in your relationship. In principle the answers could range from strictly explicit rule based including the kind and level of punishment for each offense or misbehavior---all the way to the anywhere, anytime, for any reason standard.
For many couples the process evolves as the relationship goes on -apparently toward ceding more and more disciplinary authority to the female- either by her taking it or him giving it to her. But apparently for other couples explicit rules-based DD prevails and is the choice of both partners.
To answer for us, my initial experience was with a former G.F. We actually drew on a passage on the old DWC blog recommending drawing up a list of behaviors or rules both of us wanted to change. And then starting with the easiest, work up to tougher issues until she is comfortable administering discipline and he is accepting it.
That was certainly rule based and it worked for a while but we eventually ran into trouble with it. One problem was that we often didn’t agree on whether a rule had actually been broken - and we also had at this time what we called the 24-hour rule under which a spanking had to be administered within 24 hours or it was cancelled. The other problem with our rules-based system was that both of us (primarily her) wanted to add some rules or modify others. All together it became all too “legalistic” and frustrated her more and more about the scope of her authority. And her authority and any perceived challenges to it were a very big deal to her,
So we gradually worked our way to an anytime for any reason agreement which ended all the arguments about whether something was spankable or not and also resolved the challenges to her authority that she felt with a rules based system.
But here is the big caveat to an any time for any reason system. Trust in both the integrity and common sense of the disciplinarian makes it work. And if you don’t have that trust I don’t see how it could work. It does require the male to submit in real life to female authority. But that, even then, was something I wanted despite often not wanting it when it was happening.
An anytime, for any reason system when trust and common sense are present, is not really a chaotic relationship in which a wife arbitrarily or irresponsibly issues punishments according to her whim on a given day. In my roughly 8 years with her I got plenty of spankings I didn’t want , but very few I didn’t deserve and none that really surprised me. I know her expectations and she was very good at communicating them verbally and non-verbally. In that important sense anytime, any reason is not that different from rules based. The big difference is her authority to discipline can’t be challenged and that was a game changer.
When I subsequently met my wife, I was well trained to the anytime for any reason system although she was pretty adamant about her expectations and tends not to change them very often. But given her experience as a bottom in a previous marriage, she liked the idea that her authority to discipline was final. And so, we have a kind of hybrid system which may be the best of both worlds
I look forward to hearing others experiences
Alan
"But here is the big caveat to an any time for any reason system. Trust in both the integrity and common sense of the disciplinarian makes it work. And if you don’t have that trust I don’t see how it could work." I totally agree. It hasn't happened all that often, but every once in a while we've had a commenter here say that they wouldn't turn over that kind of control, and it became clear to me after reading a series of their comments that I wouldn't turn control over to such a "leader" either, because that person clearly was not very stable or consistent in their exercise of power. Not everyone is made to lead or capable of becoming a good leader and some people's track record is such that, no, they really shouldn't be given much discretion when it comes to taking the lead.
Delete"I know her expectations and she was very good at communicating them verbally and non-verbally. In that important sense anytime, any reason is not that different from rules based. The big difference is her authority to discipline can’t be challenged and that was a game changer." I can see how that would definitely be the game changer. I've talked about this before, but I also see that as being the crux of the difference between a fairly limited DD and something closer to an FLR. The line isn't distinct, but in my mind it has something to do with the extent of decision-making power and unilateral that decision-making is.
"So we gradually worked our way to an anytime for any reason agreement which ended all the arguments about whether something was spankable or not and also resolved the challenges to her authority that she felt with a rules based system."
DeleteSame with us. At the beginning, we discussed whether it would be an "objective" or a "subjective" system of DD. We both favoured a "subjective" system, as we felt an "objective" system would create an incentive for me to try and find technicalities to avoid a spanking. Also, we agreed it would create the best deterrent effect, as I would be forced to learn what she would and wouldn't find acceptable, rather than waiting for explicit correction.
That said, my wife said she believes it is still the responsibility of the spanking spouse to tie spankings to bad behaviour as far as possible and make reasonable attempts to communicate the issue at the time: if there is no discernible link to bad behaviour, will spanking remain effective as a deterrent?
J
Continuing the discussion about "rules based" vs "female judgment" based DD, I wanted to express my strong belief that for most early DD-marriages, a "clear, rules based" system is definitely the way to start, and likely maintain for an extended time.
DeleteFrom my own observations, in my own marriage, in various accounts on the web, and particularly in many discussion in this forum, wives at the beginning of DD relationships are usually facing three particular challenges: (1) Explicit exercise of authority; (2) Trust in their own judgment as to when corrective action is appropriate; and (3) Cultural and intimate relationship "inhibitions" against apparent "violence" toward a husband.
I say "wives . . . usually" because the concepts and actions of DD are initially foreign to most wives, and many wives have little experience
exercising authority, particularly in a previously egalitarian relationship.
An explicit "clear, rules based" system helps in all three areas: (1) Help the wife to develop the necessary skills within an established structure where there is reduced need for evaluating "edge/borderline cases", allowing more mental energy to be used to develop ingrained patterns of behavior -- learning to practice and perfect, and thus trust, her own verbal and physical skills; (2) for the husband, it minimizes opportunities for challenging the wife's authority and decisions, and allows him to practice accepting increasingly stringent CP that is clearly deserved, as well as gain trust in his wife as her own skills improve. This is a very, VERY delicate time in most wives' development into a Disciplinary Wives; it's good to remove as many extraneous factors as possible.
Of course, there are many wives who simply take to DD like a "duck to water." However, even with these wives, beginning with a carefully structured set of rules can be very helpful to the husband as he "acclimates" himself to her exercising her authority. For many husband's this is also their "first rodeo."
I know and understand what Allen was saying about "rules" never being perfect expressions of the wife's desires for behavior. How wives and husband will always interpret rules slightly differently, as well as offering the husband "opportunities to challenge" a wife's judgment and decisions. To my way of thinking, this is something the husband needs to correct within himself. Part of being a disciplined husband is accepting a wife's judgment and decisions, learning to trust her. Allowing her to interpret the rules for the betterment of the relationship.
For Allen's situation, I can only recount part of how my wife and I initially set-up her "rule-based authority." We agreed that, when she believed I had violated the rules, before she rendered "final judgment," I could NOT: Argue, explain or challenge her interpretation of the rule. However, I was allowed to present two (and only two) types of evidence before final judgment: (1) Any objective facts of which I thought she was unaware; (2) That the apparent "offense / infraction" arose during my attempts to achieve a "higher good" for our relationship and/or family. (In reality, cause #2 has only very rarely gotten me out of a punishment, as my wife is very good at dissecting situations/explanations, and presenting multiple alternative methods I could have employed.)
These are why I think an initial "rules based" DD structure is best. Best for both parties to develop trust in themselves and one another during the actual practice of DD. I see risks in moving forward too fast, to situations where the wife will have to engage in more discerning decision making, and the husband will have to trust those decisions, without first developing reservoirs of trust in her decision marking.
I’m actually glad for Ann getting to the point of “lack of communication.” It signals growth in her. I’m still trying to wrap my head around what it means, but am sure it won’t mean multiple spankings for offenses. She is ultimately fair. She won’t do that until I’ve had many spankings for the same offense without changing behavior. And spanking me for the lack of communication has gotten her talking about what she means. I’m willing to suffer a sore and bruised bottom if it enables her to express more what she needs from me. We just keep getting closer.
DeleteWhile I've always thought of concrete rules leading to fewer disagreements about whether something merited a spanking, I see Alan and J's points that rules-based systems might actually create more room to argue technicalities.
Delete"From my own observations, in my own marriage, in various accounts on the web, and particularly in many discussion in this forum, wives at the beginning of DD relationships are usually facing three particular challenges: (1) Explicit exercise of authority; (2) Trust in their own judgment as to when corrective action is appropriate; and (3) Cultural and intimate relationship "inhibitions" against apparent "violence" toward a husband."
DeleteInteresting points. Thoughts:
(1) This may explain one reason why my wife took to it reasonably quickly: we are in category 4 of the list I gave, so this wasn't applicable.
(2) I suppose this is where the husband's reassurance comes in: giving her a free hand can communicate the message that her judgement is sound.
(3) I am surprised by this one, as there is the famous male disposability/expendability, part of which is that violence by women against men is disapproved of far less than the other way around. In any case, our societies should reduce its sensitivity to this so that women can feel free to bring husbands into line!
J
J: I have thought quite a bit about this "violence" question, particularly because I have noted quite a few women (e.g., on FetLife) specifically commenting that they won't/can't utilize CP in relationships because it is "violence."
DeleteWithout devolving into a long discussion of various cultural, legal, medical and philosophical perspectives on "violence," . . .
I think many people, who observe various forms of CP, without foreknowledge of the existing relationship between the partners, would clearly consider it to be "violent" "abuse." Even if such people could accept that it was not "abuse," because the recipient "consented" to the "disciplinarian" transcending the normally sacrosanct boundary of "inflicting pain" and "injury upon another person, those observers would still have trouble categorizing the activity as being non-violent.
I think people have a tendency to classify situations by the "normative forms" of similar situations, then incorporate those normative forms into "emotional learning." When a similar, visually similar, situation is observed/participated-in, it is the emotional response from which it is initially classified. (Basically, I think this is a good thing; it helps people to identify situations where another person might be in danger and need help.) However, even if the person learns/knows that the events are consensual, and there is very little chance of significant/long-term injury, and they even know that the activity is "beneficial" to the recipient, the overall circumstances cause such an overwhelming emotional response that it interferes with rational analysis, and thus strongly inhibits self-participation. (Of course, in such circumstances, "prior exposure," such as growing up on a family where CP was employed, or attending schools where "paddling" was utilized, will have blunted/eliminated such emotions.)
Fundamentally, whether an activity is "violence" (within constraints of legal definition of "battery") must be determined by the recipient, based upon (1) their true consent to the activity, and (2) whether the recipient considers the overall effect of the activity to be beneficial to them or their relationship with a partner.
Regarding (1), true consent is a murky area. A husband insisting on extreme DD on his wife that she didn't want in order to stop him leaving is, in my personal view, not true consent. Regarding (2), this is where mind games can come in (say an abusive husband persuading his wife that it is beneficial to their relationship because he will otherwise leave). When DD is an ultimatum, the other being the end of the marriage, it is more murky!
DeleteWith my situation though, when comparing my size with my wife's size, it would be hard for anyone to believe I don't do F/M DD 100% willingly!
J
"Consent" and "violence" really are tricky concepts. It's surprising in how many states activities that are pretty common in both DD and BDSM would be considered forms of "battery" for which consent is not a defense. Cases involving those activities don't get prosecuted very often and, when they do, they tend to involve fact patterns where there was consent but one party alleges it was exceeded or revoked.
DeleteIt's also interesting to me how the gender-orientation does infect my views on what I might call "coerced" consent, like the situation J. describes in which a partner insists on DD as a condition for staying in the marriage. If a man gave his wife that ultimatum, with her as the DD "bottom", I'd see it as abusive. If a woman did the same thing, suddenly I see it as, "Yeah, she's upping the stakes, but at the end of the day you can agree to it or not. You're still consenting even if you don't like it." I'm not saying my biases on this are rational or defensible. They very well may not be, but the gender alignment definitely effects my visceral reaction.
As for violence, is American football violent? Boxing? Olympic judo? A Texas bar fight where no one gets seriously injured? Given how many activities we participate in at least as spectators that involve physical aggression and some injury or risk of injury, we don't seem very consistent about what is violent and what isn't or, perhaps more accurately, which forms of violence are acceptable and which are not.
I'm running late today on a whole bunch of other projects (+ Covid Bivalent Booster), so I can only briefly respond to you, Dan and "J".
DeleteYes, determining if consent is "true consent" can be problematic. There are so many different situations where apparent consent is not "true consent."
"True Consent" is most certainly dependent upon non-coercion, of which "dissolving a relationship" might qualify as coercive. From my perspective, if a Top has any reason to demand CP beyond behavior modification, and the behavior is NOT being modified after a reasonable attempt at various methods, then, depending upon the level of misbehavior, ending a relationship would be appropriate. However, if the Top's motivations are not behavior modification, but rather personal fulfillment (enhancing internal feelings of power; sadism), AND the bottom does not want to assist the Top in satisfying such goals, we are faced with a dilemma. Does the Top truly "need" to administer CP; is that supposed "need" truly a "need," something that is necessary for the Top's physical and/or psychological well-being? If it is a "need," and it is explained to the bottom as a "need," and explained that the Top would have to find another partner if the current relationship could not meet that "need," then I don't believe that is coercive. Rather, that is being open and honest about the Top's "needs" from the relationship -- "open" and "honest" being vital parts of good relationships for which we should all endeavor.
Similarly, and I believe much more commonly, "bottoms" often feel a deep down "need" for Tops to exert control, and physically demonstrate the Top's "power to control," through methods like CP. For a "bottom's needs," if the bottom does not fully explain their needs, or misrepresents the needs, or attempts to coerce or manipulate the Top through "intentional misconduct," that in itself is being "abusive" to the Top. Such omission, deception or manipulation transcends the Top's right to exercise independent judgment in full knowledge of the circumstances; transcends the Top's right to participate in the disciplinary agreement AS IT WAS ORIGINALLY MUTUALLY AGREED UPON. That would be "abuse" of the Top by the "bottom," right?
I recently read a couple good definitions of, and semi-philosophical analysis of the relationship between, "abuse" and "consent," written by a female ("Top") practitioner of BDSM who lives in Scotland. While I do not completely agree with her extensive analysis, it is certainly interesting reading:
https://ladylubyanka.wordpress.com/2009/12/08/consent/
https://ladylubyanka.wordpress.com/2009/12/08/abuse/
https://ladylubyanka.wordpress.com/2007/08/03/hey-who-stole-my-consent-and-whats-up-with-that-anyway/
Dan mentioned: "As for violence, is American football violent? Boxing? Olympic judo? A Texas bar fight where no one gets seriously injured?"
DeleteFor most of these, we also have to consider the concepts of "intent" and "assumed risk." For football and judo, the participant are supposed to knowledgeably consent to a certain level of "assumed risk," in the knowledge that (supposedly) no one is "intentionally" attempting to cause injury. (I know, a lot of the time this definition is pretty lose for American Football!) "Boxing?" Where there is clear "intent" to cause harm, despite "assumed risks"? From my (limited) experience, most states in the USA have specific exemptions for "boxing," "karate" and "mixed martial arts" competitions from the "criminal battery" statutes.
"Texas Bar Fights," of which one or more members may never have given consent; someone just looks at some "bikers" girlfriend a little to obviously/long, and the biker takes offense? (One of my parents was a pathologist, a medical examiner, who worked for almost a decade in a larger Texas metropolis. My parent used to comment it was amazing just how many people died in "simple bar fights;" told me that I should always assume that ANY fist fight, particularly between grown men, could easily lead to death, and then "manslaughter charges;" parent told me to avoid them at all costs, or assume it was a fight to death -- not my death!)
Well, Google's Spam Monster grabbed another of my posts. I had been doing so well for so long. I wonder if it might have been the "outside of Google links" that I included in the post?
DeleteDan: I little help with your Google Spam Folder?
And yes, leaving a glass or coffee mug in the family room, bathroom, or bedroom has always been a known, spankable offense. For those who think this extreme, Ann does so much for me. And she lets me not have to do a lot!! It works for us.
ReplyDeleteIt probably would be too much for me, but in these relationships, to each his own. My reaction (though, again, it's really not my business one way or the other) would also depend a lot on the reasoning. If the husband has slobby habits and the coffee mug is part of that, then I get addressing it. If, on the other hand, there's a perfectionism involved in which literally anything out of place sends the disciplinarian off the deep end, maybe explore medication/therapy for an OCD problem?
DeleteFred:
DeleteI don't think this is extreme, at all! Being in a DD marriage entails recognizing your wife's authority to manage the household as she "feels" best, with emphasis on hour "feelings.".
If a wife finds miscellaneous serving-ware or clothes strewn throughout the house to be irritating, regardless of her background and possible reasons, her perpetually recurring "irritation" is detrimental to her health, and this irritation, through her interactions with her husband, detrimental to him and their marriage.
There are so many different things that individuals find irritating for all sorts of historic and psychological reasons. A DD marriage offers the opportunity for these to be resolved before the irritation seriously threatens the integrity of the marriage. (Yes, I've heard accounts of the apparently simplest things being so irritating, for so long that, one spouse eventually decides to end the marriage. Oftentimes explained as not due to the irritant itself, but rather the offending spouse's disregard for victim's feelings.)
In my own marriage, the "wifely irritant" was household lighting left on when I wasn't using a room/space. (Her father was an electrical power engineer for a major regional utility, and very "efficiency conscious" in the household when she grew up.) Many people would consider a light left on for an extra 5-10 minutes when some other task was performed elsewhere to be an insignificant matter; for me, it wasn't even a minor consideration. But it irritated the hell out of my wife, and it did degrade our relationship.
The "turning off lights" rule and was first she instituted, and the correct "habitual behavior" the first she decided to instill when we were starting DD in our marriage. And she did enforce it in the "anytime, anyplace" manner, as she believes that immediate "corrections" are most effective, and are particularly effective with "bad habits/omissions" caught soon after the infraction.
I'm not sure I agree with the frequency and intensity that your wife disciplines for your own "dishware and clothing offenses." I don't know if those levels are really necessary to achieve improvement and eventual extinction of your misconduct, but your wife obviously "feels" they are appropriate.
(In my own case, my wife would typically, immediately, personally lead me to the light/switch, order me to drop my pants and "present," then required that I formally requested "correction." She would then administer 15-20 hard, fast "crackers" with a wooden paddle like Aunt Kay's "holy terror." Only afterwards was I allowed to turn-off the light(s). It worked well, and the "correct habit" was (almost) completely instilled within 5-6 weeks.)
CORRECTION: Should have been ". . . her feelings."
DeleteBTW: Dan, how have you been progressing with your own "open / unlocked garage door" problem behavior?
DeleteI haven't had an actual incident with the garage door recently, but your question is well-timed because I ran an errand this morning and couldn't for the life of me remember whether I had closed the garage door when I left. I was wondering all the while I was out whether I was going to get a text with a picture of an open door and an exclamation that I was in for a spanking when I got home. It was definitely a relief when I turned onto our street and saw our house with both garage doors closed.
DeleteAgreed on the point about surreptitiously threatening the integrity of a marriage. DD, if fully and properly used, makes sure that nothing festers that could cause such things.
DeleteJ
First, I definitely tend towards sloppy habits, which need to be addressed. Ann is definitely not OCD. I have a touch - but mostly I don’t straighten pictures in other peoples’ homes anymore!
DeleteNext, we’ve had periods when I was too ill to spank. More in the last 5 years than I would wish. During those times I get lazy and selfish. When we’re able to restart it’s a while before we’re back to where we are now.
Before my illnesses I would go months between spankings. As I previously posted, I would often mess up in groups, so get a spanking two weeks in a row. Then it would be months. I expect after this week it will be months before I am spanked again. I do learn. Ann is merciful and only gave 27 whacks today. I was in tears already and she saw it was enough. I’ll get Friday’s and Monday’s, but she’ll measure them.
The reference to straightening pictures in other people's homes made me laugh, because it brought home a memory. I was talking to someone at my old firm about a mutual colleague who we both liked, but who could be very anal. She admitted that when she was much younger and worked with him at another firm, she'd sneak into his office and adjust one of the prints on his wall so it was slightly askew, just to fuck with him. While probably slightly cruel, it also was funny as hell.
DeleteDan, that’s too funny!!
DeleteHi Dan, there is a treasure trove of great topics in your “overture” this day. I just want to comment on one now and hope to have the time to get back later. TG is quoted by you : “I think if there’s a relationship at all between contrition and punishment, it’s inverse “ . This amounts to asking what if any is the causal relationship between contrition and punishment. I can supply no definitive answer to that and there may not be one.
ReplyDeleteI can recall punishments when the spanking was almost anti climatic since I felt so lousy already about my behavior and the subsequent scolding. On other occasions the spanking definitely led to the contrition through a process we have talked about before and I don’t completely understand. Just getting a spanking can produce remorse as well as a different view of what happened and her feelings about it.
But I want to make a further point about this and that is that women often think differently from men about the purpose and the objectives of a spanking. Seeing real contrition and remorse, a surrender to her authority, managing the male ego, and seeing a real change of behavior are all pretty important to some women.
So I suspect many female disciplinarians do look for contrition. But at the same time they strongly suspect (and probably have reason to suspect) that many of us “get religion” when we see a hairbrush or strap in her hands i.e. we get contrite, in her eyes for the wrong reasons -we don’t want a spanking.
With my own wife ( and earlier girlfriend) that sort of contrition never worked and I got the spanking regardless because she wanted to see the kind of contrition produced by the hairbrush or strap and not the kind just produced by seeing them. Contrition does matter but it needs to be real contrition for your behavior and not the kind of contrition intended to save your ass
Alan
Alan, I totally agree with all this. It's funny, sometimes I really struggle to find on-point memes, captioned photos drawings for a post. This time, however, the post could have almost written itself via a series of memes. When I typed "sorry" and "contrition" into the search bar in the app I keep most of my spanking art/memes in, most of what popped was along the lines you are suggesting -- either "I know you're sorry, but I want to make SURE you're sorry" or "I know you're sorry, but I want to make sure you're REALLY" sorry. In other words, either some suspicion that the contrition was contrived or convenient, or wanting to give a little additional emphasis to that contrition.
DeleteAlan,
DeleteSo what are you saying are the differences between men and women when it comes to spanking?
J
J,
DeleteI would say there wasn’t much difference if they are both on the receiving side of the paddle. I am saying that if a woman is in a DD relationship and subject to consensual corporal punishment as discipline, she is probably similar in most respects (attitude, behavior, motivation, response to discipline, etc.) to a male in a DD relationship and subject to consensual corporal punishment as discipline. My scope of reference is heterosexual couples. But there is no reason to think that homosexual couples on the receiving side of the paddle would express a great gender differentiation
Bringing this down to concrete example, consider this little thought experiment: I am in a DD relationship, subject to corporal punishment from my wife and have been for a long while. Let’s say I encounter a female in a DD relationship, who is subject to corporal punishment from her husband.
And further imagine we both are comfortable exchanging experiences, feelings about discipline, motivations for accepting discipline and virtually any intimate detail we might agree to discuss -all the time trying to see how we are the same discipline or different about discipline. Remember the old “contrast and compare “question profs used to use in survey courses. That’s what I am describing here that this hypothetical couple would do talking to each other.
What significant psychological or emotional differences between themselves would they discover re seeking. Accepting, and benefiting from DD corporal punishment from their spouses it?
I don’t think very many real differences would emerge .Probably the big one is that women tend to emote more during a spanking whereas males tend to try to hold it in until the bitter end. ( I think)
Where there might however be significant differences is between female and male disciplinarians. I am on wobbly ground here because I am not a disciplinarian --although I have known enough of both genders to have an informed opinion.
The main difference between the genders among disciplinarians (professionals are excluded here) is in the importance of an ongoing relationship. At least some male disciplinarians are comfortable operating outside of a close committed relationship. Maybe even more comfortable that way (I know of one guy who cannot consistently give his wife the severe spankings she wants even though he well knows she really wants it . Also , during my misspent youth, I know several guys who spanked every woman who would let them, but didn’t need or probably want any committed relationship
Female disciplinarians are different as to relationships (again, pros are excepted) Relationships are sine qua non for many, probably most. And the more committed the relationship, the more serious she takes the role of disciplinarian. There are probably also many fewer “natural” or spanko female disciplinarians than male.
On this blog we have frequently discussed how much of this is biological versus cultural with no real consensus among commenters. In my personal opinion, the way so many previously “vanilla” women take to the disciplinarian role, is persuasive evidence that our still strong patriarchal culture is why there seems to be so few natural female tops. The fact that many women only “discover” their inner disciplinarian role into middle age may point to both biological and cultural factors that suppress the natural dominance of younger women.
This whole question of differences between the genders re spanking seems to tie together many of the themes tackled on this blog
Alan
My data set is extremely limited, but I have gotten close to one female "bottom" who used to have a DD blog. Talking to her about her dynamic, I am sometimes struck by how similar our motivations are. I do think there may be some higher-level differences between male and female bottoms. This friend was also running a Facebook group for a while that was almost entirely women in M/f relationships. She invited me to join, and I participated for a while. One thing I noticed was there seemed to be *a lot* of what seemed like unhealthy dependency among a fairly large segment of the practitioners. "My husband is traveling on business for three days, and I'm just a total mess thinking about it. I have no idea how I'll cope without him around." That kind of stuff. Also, just a lot of pushing the husbands to take over every facet of the relationship. We obviously do talk here a lot about wanting wives to take charge and be more controlling, but what I saw among that group was much more needy and dependent.
DeleteI do suspect you are right that there is more variability among "tops."
That doesn’t surprise me because I think there are “alphas” and “betas” among both genders. Its almost a commonplace among some M/F practitioners that many women, aggressive and in charge types, often seek spanking experiences with their partners. During my misspent youth I met more than a few of those - who might leave you with a still very shapely but very warm ass at lunchtime, but spend the PM running an office of 50 subordinates, while maybe fantasizing about their next spanking.
DeleteBut there is also the more dependent type female, betas if you will, who are submissive 24-7, and attracted to that role in spanking. Many males are attracted to that sort of women as our many males attracted to a less dependent type of women.
Your blog, I think, attracts as commentators mostly alpha type males who are or want to be spanked, but there are plenty of beta males also interested in being spanked-- and maybe they read this blog, but don’t often comment. However, they do comment on other blogs including some you link to and they seem to have commonality with many betas submissive women –just as male alphas interested in DD have much in common with female alphas seeking same.
The main differences I believe between M/F spanking and its analogue F/M spankings are the personalities and preferences of practitioners. Currently, as we have discussed, M/F spanking overwhelming beats F/M in popularity. Biology in particular will continue that imbalance particularly among younger women, But cultural inhibitions are being overthrow gradually and inexorably by newer successive generations of women who will turn much of conventional sexual practices on its pointy head
Alan
Alan,
DeleteWhat were you thinking of regarding the personalities and preferences of practitioners regarding the difference between M/F and F/M spanking?
And regarding alpha males, what are you reading into things regarding why they desire to be spanked? And have you read anything into alpha-male-beta-female F/M spankings (if so, what)? Or are all the ones you know of alpha for both male and female?
J
"It's almost a commonplace among some M/F practitioners that many women, aggressive and in charge types, often seek spanking experiences with their partners." I can't speak to how commonplace it is, as I've had very limited experience with that dynamic. I will say that the female blogger I was referencing is very, very successful at her profession and that my impression is her wiring is pretty similar to mine in terms of being hyper-responsible with a corresponding need to be accountable and needing to sometimes let go of control.
Delete"Your blog, I think, attracts as commentators mostly alpha type males who are or want to be spanked, but there are plenty of beta males also interested in being spanked-- and maybe they read this blog, but don’t often comment." I think that's probably right. When I first started the blog, I brought to it preconceived notions and biases based on my own individual experience. One of those notions was that most men who are attracted to DD are alphas, Type-A's, whatever you want to call that kind of personality who tends to be a leader in day-to-day life but is interested in giving up control and being subject to someone else's authority at home. When I ran a poll on that issue (back when Blogger had a polling function), however, the respondents were almost evenly split between those who liked to lead outside the DD relationship and those who preferred to be followers. "Leaders" and "followers" isn't exactly the right dichotomy, but I don't think "Alphas" and "betas" really is either, especially now that "betas" has become a popular pejorative among the right-wing crazies (many of them who are themselves the epitome of slavish followers).
Dan,
DeleteMy guess for the reasons for this are that when given the protection of anonymity (and the consequent lack of public shame about possible "gaps" in their "alpha" status), "alphas" are more forward in putting their points of view forward, whereas participating in a poll is much less onerous in terms of putting a point across for a "beta".
J
My wife and do not have any place any time rule regarding spanking. I contribute to the household chores equally. My wife was sick for a while and I stepped up and completed all of the cleaning, cooking, and laundry. I don’t judge other DD couples, but I’m with Dan in thinking getting punished for leaving a coffee mug lying around is excessive. My wife does have OCD tendencies on certain issues. We have been together so long; that I actually have conformed to them unknowingly overtime. We all have wives who do things to irritate us, but I look past them due to my love for her. My wife does so many things for me that DD is for the major things that we have discussed. The raising of my voice towards her on an issue; or a major slight towards her would earn a good beating. I received one the other night that I felt I didn’t deserve. I did agree that I was animated on a topic at dinner. I told my wife I will
ReplyDeleteNEVER refuse to comply with a spanking. I guess clear rule base is a great way to start. It just wouldn’t work for us. I guess growing up w a clean freak Mother, I don’t leave clothes dishes or any items lying around. We are adults after all. Like my wife told me the other day, your mouth it going to get your bottom into major trouble when not careful.
T
And as people are different, I have only once been spanked for raising my voice to my wife. I was raised that a man didn’t do that and readily took my spanking after that.
DeleteWe don’t have those issues in our marriage. We have me drifting into selfishness at times. Sometimes that means I get frequent and multiple spankings. Then I regain perspective and go months without being spanked.
We have an "anytime, any reason" agreement. After 5 years of DD, my behavior has improved, and seldom warrants a disciplinary spanking. I still want and need them, and wish they happened more often. For me, trivial offenses, like leaving a coffee cup out, should be a welcome opportunity for a spanking. However, I wouldn't do that intentionally, as it would seem manipulative. Sometimes, I wish she was more strict, but she would probably not spank me for a petty thing like that. We don't have the typical stresses of most couples, as we aren't married and don't live together. Most of the disciplinary spankings I receive are for things I have self reported. It is always more satisifying when the spanking comes from her, and I have no say in it. Her dominance is the major turn on.
ReplyDelete"It is always more satisifying when the spanking comes from her, and I have no say in it. Her dominance is the major turn on." I suspect most here would agree with that.
DeleteHer willingness to spank whenever it is necessary (or even merely desirable) is the equivalent turn-on for me.
DeleteJ
Does anyone have any thoughts on how this varies according to level of female authority? Levels for consideration:
ReplyDelete1) An outright-FLR marriage (the wife having full authority over everything or almost so)
2) A DD marriage with the wife having authority (the main focus of the group)
3) Both spouses having equal authority
4) The husband as leader, with the wife providing accountability (say as a "separation of powers") and her authority covering spanking only
5) Anything that wouldn't neatly fall into any of these
J
Hi again J:
DeleteI wanted to analyze and give my perspectives on your question about practicing DD in various marriage power structures. However, it occurred to me that I hadn't yet answered Dan's original series of questions, so this might be a good place to start. (Sorry that this post got longer than intended.)
Dan: "Is Donn right that such a progression happens in most DD marriages? Do most wives begin dealing with a concrete set of rules and then progress over time
to something close to 'anytime, anywhere for any reason'?"
I have no idea about "most DD marriages," by our own marriage definitely progressed from "rule based" to almost exclusively her "wifely judgement," although I think I know quite well her standards and how her judgement works, allowing me to translate that into "situational rules." It's very much like meme #7 that Dan posted above:
"If you don't know you're in [trouble], . . . this is much more serious than I thought. . . . Do you think I found your behavior acceptable? Remotely acceptable?"
Dan continued: "[Do some wives] jump to the 'anytime, anywhere, for any reason' [dynamic] relatively quickly without many intermediate steps, while others never come close to that level of control?"
Again, I can't speak for the vast majority of DD-husbands, but so far, in our current conversation, it appears most of our members' wives DID rapidly progress to the "anytime, anywhere, for any reason" / "wifely judgement" level of authority! (Or will be there very shortly!)
I our own marriage, the progression was somewhat "discontinuous." Despite being born in this country, attending public schools here, and then college and graduate school here, and then working in both non-profit educational and corporate human resources environments, my wife had prolonged difficulty developing "authority" within a family environment. Both her parents were immigrants from the Arab world, and while both parents were highly educated, she grew up in a very patriarchal family environment. This kind of power-structure was "emotionally instilled" within her. While she could consciously understand how family relations could be different -- different to her and the marriage's benefit, she remained in "emotional conflict" with herself, preventing her from freely and easily exercising the authority we both agreed she possessed. As note above, we began with a "rules based" system, where most of the rules were made in consultation, usually something like this: Her - "I would like for . . .", or "I don't want you to . . ."; Me - "I understand and agree . . . that will be a good rule for our marriage." (I was careful to NEVER disagree, although I did make some suggestions re clarity and circumstances.)
It took about ten months before, one day, she just came right out:
"I don't like [xxxxx], and you will NOT be doing that anymore!"
Shortly thereafter, it was:
"You will [yyyy] every day, or face serious consequences!"
That was the "discontinuity." From that point on, she had effectively firmly grasped the "for any reason" authority. The various "stages" and "spheres of authority" I mentioned before were areas where she rapidly began exercising her authority, not fully in any one area, or necessarily in the order I originally presented, but without question she made clear either specific rules or more general "standards for my behavior" for all of them.
(cont. . . .)
Sorry: That was me, Donn, immediately above. I forgot to sign-in before posting.)
Delete(. . . cont.)
Dan: "So, [your wife's] judgement really determines if your behavior is well disciplined or not"?
She absolutely has the final say whether I meet her "standards of behavior"! However, I can request that she assist me in specific areas that I myself want to improve. However, once I make such a request, I loose control over the level of performance that I must achieve; she can set whatever standards and rates of progress she feels are best for me and the marriage.
Dan: "For those who have gotten to that 'anytime, anywhere, for any reason' (or some variation of it) end of the continuum, how has that worked out? Do you end up agreeing that [her] exercise of authority [to punish] was 'right' most of the time?"
Yes, the overwhelming majority of the time. There have been very, very few instances where I did not immediately, internally, agree with her judgment of my behavior. In those few instances where I did not initially agree, one of three "end points" were reached:
(1) She believes in clearly explaining her reasons for corrections, and expecting true agreement and contrition, before any punishments. Sometimes this is very brief, but if she senses, usually through my own honesty, that I do not fully embrace my misconduct and am not truly contrite for my offense and the harm it caused, she will continue explaining, in long excruciating detail, and "picking apart" my "defenses," until she is satisfied I'm truly sorrowful and ready for undertake penance;
(2) As has been noted here in the forum many times, an appropriate application of CP has an amazing way of opening up the male ego to the wife's perspective on an unresolved matter. For me, part of this the that CP tends to break-down my psychological defenses to make me more "open minded" to her perspective. In combination with this, my wife continues questioning and explaining my misconduct, and particularly explaining how it effects her "emotionally," linking the CP to her emotional pain and the disappointment she felt. Powerful stuff for changing opinions!
(3) I can remember only two instances in the past two decades where, after a punishment had been completed, I still disagreed with my wife's perspective and decision. I don't recall feeling angry in either case. I do remember thinking that, "considering all the benefits we have both derived for so many years, I can 'adopt her position' as my own."
Much later, Dan responded to Alan's comment, that Alan's wife's "authority to discipline can’t be challenged," with:
" I . . . see that as being the crux of the difference between a fairly limited DD and something closer to an FLR. The line isn't distinct, but in my mind it has something to do with the extent of decision-making power and [how] unilateral that decision-making is."
I very much agree with this! While we started down this long road with my request to my wife to establish some type of mutually beneficial FLR that included DD, it wasn't really a functional-FLR until she undertook full authority to "independently" set enforceable standards for my behavior. I'm very glad she has good judgment, but we would not have married, or I would have proposed starting down this road, without early recognition of her intelligence and judgment.
Don,
DeleteThanks for this. I read through your comments: did you indirectly address the points? Or are you planning to do this in another comment?
J
Another comment is coming.
DeleteI wanted to first describe out own FLR/WLM, and my wife's particular "emotional challenge," before addressing your specific categories. I thought our experience exemplifies a couple points I wanted to make re your categories.
Working, working, working . . .
Regarding "J's" question about practicing the "two types" of DD in various marriage power structures, I think it is best to clarify and condense those categories.
DeleteA "DD relationship" is not a relationship in and of itself, but a part of a larger relationship and power structure. Thus, I don't think category #2 (a DD marriage) is a category comparable to the other categories. Similarly, I think every marriage has to be some combination of categories #1 (wife led), #3 (egalitarian), and #4 (husband led).
The way those three categories are presented, category #4 would have to be some combinations of the other categories (#1 and #4); I don't really believe there can be such a thing as a "totally egalitarian marriage" (#2). However, as "markers" or "end points" in the continuum of power within a marriage, they serve as good "archetypes."
I think it is also important to distinguish between the types and background of women who might participate in DD within this continuous range of power relations. For our purposes, one might propose three "archetypes" of female participants:
(A) An average inexperienced (vanilla) woman of naturally mid-range "assertiveness" and "dominant/submissive personality balance" (among all women), which in our overall culture is likely to be toward the "unassertive" and "non-dominant" ends of those spectrums;
(B) A vanilla woman who has a fundamentally more "assertive" and "dominant" internal orientation and personality, and who can express those tendencies in limited "socially approved' "female environments" (teaching school-children; nursing patients; supervising clerical employees), but is culturally inhibited from self-initiating expressions of assertive and dominant behavior in many (most?) other environments;
(C) A vanilla woman who has a strongly dominant personality (throughout a wide range of different environments), whether she overtly displays this dominance or not.
(Of course, there are also a small percentage of strongly dominant women who have already adopted positive attitudes to female led leaderships, and the use of DD in marriages, possibly through experiences with family or friends, who might be considering entering into a long-term relationship. I think most such women would respond comparably to "group C" women. It is simply a case of "prior exposure" to FLR's and DD-relationships; NOT inherent personalities.)
Working backwards, I have trouble imagining any woman from "group C" initiating a relationship where the man wants a strongly / completely "patriarchal" marriage. "Group C" woman simply do not have the personality to tolerate such a relationship. I don't think that, even if they had entered such a relationship, and then the man expressed his desire to incorporate DD into the mix, that: (1) The man would really be capable of relinquishing power to the degree that the woman would need to fulfill the duties of DWC; or (2) The DWC would rapidly "push" that relationship toward and past the mid-range "egalitarian" relationship. I don't think such a woman could "self contain" herself to only a "rule based" version of DD; it would be her natural tendency to keep "pushing the envelope," as it were. Therefore, the "patriarchal" nature of the relationship would quickly dissipate and disappear, or the relationship, with two people "struggling for the steering wheel," would crash and burn!
(cont. . . .)
(. . . cont.)
DeleteAt the other end of the spectrum, could a woman from "Group-A" really engage in a long-term FLR that included effective DD? I doubt that she could develop the confidence to manage such a totally one-sided relationship unless she had stronger underlying personality traits along those lines. Could such a woman ever develop the skills and confidence to engage in DD in a strongly patriarchal marriage? I don't see how she could with the man constantly, strongly, asserting himself in almost all areas of the marriage. Could such a woman participate in a more egalitarian relationship with DD? I think, with sufficient time and experience, and a lot of support from a partner, it could be done and benefit both people. Could such a woman, by herself, assert herself enough to drive the dynamic to a fully "female judgement" based DD? Possibly if the man had many naturally submissive qualities that would not threaten or inhibit the woman's progress. However, in the end, I strongly suspect such women could only function happily, long-term, in a more rules based DD in a marriage not too far from the mid-spectrum "egalitarian" archetype.
Finally, those woman (Group B) who do have more assertive and dominant (than average) personalities, and have had an opportunity to regularly express those traits and develop some of the leadership skills needed for either an FLR and/or DD in marriage. Again, I have tremendous trouble believing any such women, in our current culture, would enter into anything LESS than an "egalitarian" relationship. Yes, there might be elements in such an egalitarian relationship where one or the other partner took a more "leading role," but the overall balance could not be more than slightly "patriarchal." I think that these woman would (initially) be very similar to Group A women, in that they might best start out in a more egalitarian relationship; they might take a while to "grow into" being DD-wives. I think many such Group C women, who begin "rules based" DD, could, by themselves, if they did not experience male opposition, could themselves progress to a fundamentally "female judgement" / "any reason" form of DD. As these "female judgement" elements of DD developed, the relationship would naturally "drift" toward the FLR end of the spectrum.
In fact, if (really, truly, "when") this "female judgment" form of DD is fully implemented, and accepted by the husband, the relationship IS an FLR/WLM! While the husband might continue "managing" certain parts of the marriage, and "deciding" certain questions effecting the marriage, these "male powers" are only from the "forbearance" of the "female's judgment." With the "female judgment" form of DD, she has the power to assert and control any part of the relationship she chooses, right?
Of course, this is a hypothetical discussion from my own perspective. However, I must admit that, in my own case, even though I originally asked for an FLR with my wife, in practice we were in a "rule based" DD egalitarian relationship until she could resolve her internal conflict. Once she had "dissipated" the conflicting emotions, combined with my own natural sexual submissiveness, we moved rapidly to a full FLR where she had complete discretion as to how things worked and how I behaved.
(Sometimes it feels like I'm kind of a voice in the wilderness with some of my longer posts. I hope I'm not intimidating people, or people don't think I'm "off the wall" and its not work responding, or that I might have "nailed it" so well that there is really no need to say anything more.
I certainly think "J's" original question is very appropriate for all of us to explore and comment upon. Particularly, since (I think) most of us started in basically egalitarian relationships with "Group B" wives who progressed, at various rates under various circumstance, to their current empowerment.)
I will write more as I have more time, but I wanted to say that my wife and I do have an "anytime, anyplace, for any reason" policy. In the very beginning, we tried to just have a few set rules that she would enforce, but I think she found that too restrictive, and also I don't really break all that many rules.
ReplyDeleteWe have our weekly check-ins (which are kind of on-again, off-again depending on life circumstances), and those are very formulaic. But punishment spankings are totally at her discretion.
Now a huge caveat... I can say "anytime, anywhere, for any reason," but until she actually tries to punish me at just plain the wrong time, in the wrong place, and for what I consider an invalid reason, and I go along with it without resisting too much, it is pretty disingenuous for me to say that is what we have. Get back to me after she punishes me in front of someone or something like that and then I will be more of an authority on this! :)
-ZM
Totally agree with your last paragraph. We all can genuinely believe we are in a particular kind of dynamic, until it gets pushed and really tested.
DeleteZM wrote: …” but until she actually tries to punish me at just plain the wrong time, in the wrong place, and for what I consider an invalid reason, and I go along with it without resisting too much, it is pretty disingenuous for me to say that is what we have.”
DeleteThis has happened to us –maybe twice in over 20 years. It shouldn’t happen at all but life ain’t perfect and it can happen in a relationship (ours) where anytime, any reason has been the lingua franca from early on.
If it is vanishingly rare as it has been for us, moving on or trying to understand why it happened is the best strategy to employ. But if it happened frequently or regularly it means “anytime, any reason “ is not working for you anymore.
Both times we had trouble with it, the place she chose to punish me was the problem and made the whole experience a bad one. So what we learned the most was where it happened mattered a lot: she really shouldn’t take your pants down in the middle of a cocktail party ( that is NOT what happened with us, and its just an example of the wrong place)
But expect it to happen once or twice in a mature DD. She isn’t perfect and neither are you
Alan
"But expect it to happen once or twice in a mature DD. She isn’t perfect and neither are you." Very good reminder.
DeleteWhere to start, so many points ! Firstly Dan’s repeat of my comment about the inverse relationship. I want to be clear that I have never actually felt anger or resentment at receiving discipline, I was just hypothesizing that that feeling could be reverted by receiving a punishment that the receiver felt was unfair. Next, I think J’s brief comment is very true and incredibly important. I know I’ve mentioned this before but DD plays a huge role in letting us move on and not having things fester. We’ve seen marriages in trouble over the years where we felt it was clear that one of the key problems was that they didn’t have any mechanism to move past a problem. On the rules vs anytime discussion, I agree with others. Although my first ever punishment over twenty years ago was for something I clumsily said that was very upsetting to her, we started with clear rules (late credit card payments, speeding tickets for example) and over the years morphed into a much less structured formula - it’s probably been fifteen years since either of the above rules was broken. I guess my behavior has improved over the years as discipline instigated by her is very rare these days (I think I may have said previously that there had only been one instance this year, but thinking about it, there have been three; two “planned” punishments for specific things and one immediate and unexpected caning for something that I repeatedly forgot - immediately after the n-th time I forgot it.). I find Norton’s comment about self reporting struck a chord. Discipline today is more likely to be triggered by my feeling bad about something but it is indeed more satisfying when the decision and command comes from her, especially if it’s an instant and unexpected reaction. I think I’ve picked up an undercurrent in many comments over time that many of us would like our wives / SOs to be more disciplinary. Finally, J’s classification of relationships. I guess we’d fit into 5. We’re a hybrid between an equal partnership and an FLR with DD elements.
ReplyDeleteTG.
"I know I’ve mentioned this before but DD plays a huge role in letting us move on and not having things fester. We’ve seen marriages in trouble over the years where we felt it was clear that one of the key problems was that they didn’t have any mechanism to move past a problem."
DeleteI agree, though this is one area where I think most of the responsibility falls on the Disciplinarian to actually let it go. We had a recent incident in which I felt something that had been addressed was being dragged out, and I admit I got seriously pissed off and resentful about it.
One could argue it is harder to be the husband in this respect in a F/M DD marriage, since if you are unhappy with something, you have little choice but to let it go. However, regarding what you said about something being only partially addressed, I suppose ultimately, the only solution is for us to do what we can do to ensure our wives feel secure in their authority, so that they will continue spanking until the issue is fully addressed. My wife and I agreed early on that she would continue the spanking as long as she felt necessary to ensure it was fully addressed, even overdoing things if necessary, but that this would draw a line under the issue I was being spanked for. On the other hand, if the issue is too big for spanking, there are other arrangements.
DeleteJ
R.e. self reporting, we have established a bi weekly check in where she will ask me specific questions about my drinking, driving, etc. It is much easier to self report if asked direct questions, and then your responsibility is to simply answer truthfully.
DeleteShe instituted this protocol, and I am grateful she did. Because we don't live together, we aren't around each other enough to get on each others nerves much. The check in provides her more reasons to discipline. Maintenance spankings are good and predictable reminders, but it seems I often need real discipline as well.
"Next, I think J’s brief comment is very true and incredibly important. I know I’ve mentioned this before but DD plays a huge role in letting us move on and not having things fester. We’ve seen marriages in trouble over the years where we felt it was clear that one of the key problems was that they didn’t have any mechanism to move past a problem."
ReplyDeleteTG, what do you have in mind regarding possible "mechanisms", both within the DD part of a relationship and elsewhere?
J
For us, the mechanism is spanking and it works. I could have said that these marriages needed a spanking regimen but I know that’s not for everyone. That’s why I used the more general word “mechanism.” It might be interesting to know if anyone in here has mechanisms for moving forward - in an FLR - other than spanking. TG
DeleteWell, "spanking" is certainly a significant method of corporal punishment that we use in our marriage, but not the only form of CP that is used. Without going into details, you might not be surprises that with my full Scottish name of "Donnachaihd," tawses might also be used on palms of hands, as appropriate. Without going into details, with my wife's Turkish name of "Rezan Kiral," thin canes or leather straps might also be used on soles of fee, as appropriate.
DeleteBasically, there are many sensitive areas of the body than can be used for a variety of different type of "Corporal Punishment." (About 25 years ago, in a private gathering at a BDSM club, I observed a petite east-Asian woman turn a huge male "body-builder" into a crying, simpering, pleading "baby," in under two minutes, through repeated strikes with a single nine-inch "ivory chopstick.")
Then, there are all the various "stress positions," above and beyond simple standing/kneeling in a corner, . . ..
From what I read, while most FLR's do employ some form of "punishment," only rarely is it CP. There are many other "non-bodily" options . . .
don't even
a slobbering,
Well, Google's Spam Monster grabbed another of my posts. I had been doing so well for so long. I wonder what I might have done wrong this time.
DeleteDan: I little help with your Google Spam Folder?
My wife is not interested in a FLR relationship. Looking back at J’s comments, we would fall into the number 4 category. I’m pretty much responsible for the major decisions in the household with my wife’s input. I handle the finances and shared chore duties. Looking at our friends relationships, I know I do way more than my counterparts. I believe that has to do partially with upbringing. We had chores to complete growing up and if you did not complete them, then the strap came out. I know an FLR would never work for us. My wife would never want that type of responsibility. I do admire her for correcting my behavior. I have a tendency to get animated and raise my voice on certain topics. I don’t yell at my wife but get very animated on issues. I’m working on this along with a pessimistic attitude at times about the way the world is going. My wife has a very positive attitude about life and things in general. I guess opposites due attract. I recently found out that a very good friend of our was having an emotional affair. His wife is devastated. She wanted to know why our relationship was so strong and bonded. I didn’t have the balls to tell her about our DD lifestyle. I’m wondering if that would of helped or hurt their relationship.
ReplyDeleteI agree with the contrition comments above. DD does let us move on. She strapped me the other night for good reason, the rest of the week has been wonderful and she commented on my good behavior.
T
"I recently found out that a very good friend of our was having an emotional affair. His wife is devastated. She wanted to know why our relationship was so strong and bonded. I didn’t have the balls to tell her about our DD lifestyle. I’m wondering if that would of helped or hurt their relationship."
DeleteThat last sentence sums up why I would be reluctant to bring up DD as an option for "fixing" a friend's troubled marriage. I just don't feel like I have enough real insight into the full scope anyone's marriage dynamic to know whether it would make things better or worse. It's hard enough to know what makes a friend tick. It seems pretty presumptuous to me to think you are likely to know what makes *both* your friend and their partner tick and how their dynamic really works.
Yes, but isn't it devilishly fun to think you do and that you know exactly what to do about it.
DeleteAlan
Alan, yes, very fun and very tempting.
DeleteLike you, I have a far more pesimistic view of the world than my partner does, so I try to keep my negative opinions to myself. If I get too grumpy, I will soon find myself over her lap. We also have friends that have ongoing problems, and they are curious about why our relationship seems to work so well. If pressed, I would probably tell them. However, it isn't clear they would really want to know, or that DD would work for them. It certainly has made a world of difference in my behavior. She has been out of town, but when she returns, she will inquire about how much I had to drink and if I went over my limit. I will always be honest about it, which I feel is my responsibility. If it wasn't for the threat of a hard, disciplinary spanking, I would have had at least one more beer tonight. Instead, I had an ice water while my buddy had another beer.
ReplyDeleteDan: Quick comment re this week's subject matter and this week's "Heading"/"Title."
DeleteYour original/current title reads: "Anyplace, Anytime, Anywhere".
Considering your introduction, and our discussions so far, shouldn't that title really be:
"Anyplace, Anytime, Any Reason"?
I don't know if you can still edit that title, but you may want consider an amendment.
It's a good catch that two words in the title are repetitive. But, I'm not going to change it. I've found that when I try to edit a Blogger post that's already been entered, it totally screws up the formatting of the body of the post. Correcting an error in the title isn't worth the headache of going back through the post to fix everything that Blogger will screw up.
DeleteFor us, the rules-based and the feelings-based reasons for DD started at the same time. I had a tendency to be sloppy and selfish, such as leaving my shoes and socks wherever I took them off. This frustrated her immensely, but it wasn't just the specific behavior; she also said I was disrespecting her and her hard work to keep the house clean -- and the disrespect was what really upset her.
ReplyDeleteLike most couples here, I was the one who suggested corporal punishment. I still remember the question my wife asked me: "What would your mother do if you disrespected her the way you disrespect me?" "Thrash my ass," I answered truthfully. She said nothing, and a few days later I went to her and suggested she use Mom's technique, and promised her I would accept it. About a week later the first spanking happened.
The "anywhere, any time, for any reason" grew out of our shared belief that the best way to break bad habits is with immediate consequences -- similar to the gentleman who got spanked in front of the light switch he forgot to turn off. For years those immediate consequences happened only when we were alone, but as I have mentioned she became much more brazen after our retirements, including threats in front of just about anyone and punishment in earshot of others. She never invited witnesses but there was one accidental witness, a story I will tell some day.
My wife also quickly morphed from misbehaviors in her presence to any misbehavior. She would question me about my driving, my drinking, my attitude to customer servce people, my respect level for female co-workers, etc., and punish me accordingly. Like others here, I always felt an obligation to tell the truth. After all, she was truly improving my behavior!
As far as contrition, she was of the school that talk is cheap and the only way to demonstrate true contrition was to improve my behavior. She knew full well that I would promise anything while she was whacking away!
KOJ
"As far as contrition, she was of the school that talk is cheap . . ."
DeleteHard to argue with that, isn't it?
It seems like this weeks discussion is quickly "losing steam."
ReplyDeleteI have noticed that not many people have address the "any time" part of Dan's original questions, other than the general "immediately" or somewhat "regularly scheduled."
I was thinking that a good future topic might be: "If misconduct cannot be immediately 'corrected,' how do you (either party, or the "couple') track offenses and help ensure eventual 'accountability'".
Just a thought for consideration. (Probably needs expansion with more meat to make a full discussion, but a possible "seed" for a future discourse.)
In a very real sense, the "any place" and "any time" part has been our most common refrain on the blog in the past couple of years, since these two conditions are inextricably tied up with others knowing, witnesses, or the possibility of witnesses.
DeleteMy wife and I have used weekly check-ins for monitoring progress on self-improvement goals like weight and diet, and the times that she has punished me for bad attitude, arrogance, or generally treating her or others poorly have often happened several days after she told me punishment was coming (due to lack of opportunity). But when it becomes weeks rather than days since a behavior happened and punishment was announced but didn't yet take place, the punishment rarely if ever happens, and I think that is probably for the best, since by then punishing is almost pointless anyway.
-ZM
"In a very real sense, the "any place" and "any time" part has been our most common refrain on the blog in the past couple of years, since these two conditions are inextricably tied up with others knowing, witnesses, or the possibility of witnesses."
DeleteGood point.
Yes, I certainly agree with you ZM. And we have certainly experienced ourselves, and I have read here many times, how too long an interval between misconduct and potential correction(s) greatly diminishes the probability that there will ever be CP correction(s).
DeleteMy original thought, incompletely expressed, is more along the lines that you, ZM, were pointing out. Maybe my suggestion could have been better expressed as:
(1) How do you, as a couple, help ensure that needed corrective action does NOT slip too far behind; how do you track pending corrective actions, and schedule the same;
(2) How do you, as a couple, deal with "missed corrections," or corrections that don't achieve the desired changes in behavior; how do you track previous "corrections" of misconduct to verify that changes in behavior persist, and assess "recurring/recalcitrant misconduct"?
I presume everyone has their own "informal / formal" systems for dealing with these types of situations.
I was kind of thinking about that too Donn, and it's related to the "any place" aspect of the discussion. My wife is really only comfortable spanking me at home. So when we have stayed at family members' homes, she deals with transgressions later. Believe me, in an extended stay with Beth's parents, they can add up. I've even encouraged her to deal with it if we have the house to ourselves for a little while, but she won't have it.
ReplyDeleteAlso when we stay at a hotel. Beth is always sensitive to the noise factor. I have to say that I'd be uncomfortable with that too.
To her, misbehaving multiple times earns more than one spanking. She therefore makes mental note and I am spanked more than once after we return home.
Kevin
Noise is our continual problem as well, and not only when we are at other places (other people's houses, hotels) but even when we are at home. Our apartment is small by US standards, and very poorly built befitting our country's third-world status. We not only have to worry about noise if someone happens to be home (our adult son is currently living with us), but anytime that it is relatively quiet outside because other occupants of our building are likely to hear.
DeleteI think the "multiple times earns multiple spankings" thing would be powerful, but in almost every case, I think if the punishment is too far disconnected in time from the infraction, it loses much of its psychological power. However, I don't really have an answer for that problem. I guess if my wife and I were totally ok with witnesses - even if they were only witnessing audibly - then it wouldn't be an issue. My wife could be just "you earned it, so here it is," no matter when or where we were. But needless to say, we are not at that point.
-ZM
We're fortunate that the location of our house provides more than enough privacy for a very sound spanking. Beth has become much more comfortable disciplining me than I ever would have expected, but it remains very much a private matter between husband and wife.
DeleteI understand what you are saying about the extended time between misbehavior and a spanking, but my experience was that it gave me plenty of time to think about what
was coming.
Kevin
Delete"I think the "multiple times earns multiple spankings" thing would be powerful, but in almost every case, I think if the punishment is too far disconnected in time from the infraction, it loses much of its psychological power."
I go back and forth on this one. On the one hand, I kind of admire the commitment and consistency of making sure every substantial problem gets addressed, even if there is a time gap. However, as a practical matter, I do agree that a punishment that is too far removed from the offense does start seeming kind of pointless.
Kevin, I agree regarding the value of some time for anticipation. Though, I find there is a fairly limited window for it.
DeleteWe had this come up a bit just last night. She gave me a spanking that didn't qualify as a "surprise" (see last week's topic), yet I also wasn't sure whether we saw the behavior the same way and, since she hadn't mentioned a spanking, I had kind of forgotten about it. She hadn't. Later, after delivering a hard one, she asked what was "harder on me", one that I have time to think about or something more immediate. I told her (truthfully) that I think one you anticipate for some period of time is more meaningful. I do think the window is pretty narrow--hours, not days--but I do feel like "surprise" situations lose some emotional force.
Blinds up or down this time Dan ?
DeleteDown
DeleteHi Dan,
ReplyDeleteI thought this week's discussion was really good. I didn't really find any chances to jump in anywhere, since in most every case whatever I was thinking, someone had already said!
One thing I would say is that categorizing relationships on a spectrum is somewhat difficult. An easy example of this is what I would consider a pretty much "pure" DD relationship (recognizing there is no such thing, and that many different models are equally valid), where the wife has authority to discipline her husband, but in other respects their relationship is pretty typical of non-DD couples. If someone told me they were in this type of relationship, and I wanted to better understand how their relationship works, some of the first questions I might have would be "who makes the rules?" or "who decides what is punishable?" or "how is the level of punishment determined?" The answers to these questions reveal a broad spectrum, ranging from "the wife has agreed to give her husband 5 whacks with the paddle each Sunday evening for each self-reported violation of the rules that he has set" all the way to "the wife can discipline him anytime, anywhere, for any reason, in any way that she wishes." Interestingly, this whole spectrum can neatly fit within a DD relationship in which all other aspects of the relationship are "normal," yet the demonstrated authority of the wife is vastly different.
There are many facets of life, including not only household chores, attitudes, and interpersonal relationships, but also things such as finances, work, where to live, raising children, social life, and so on. In each of these different facets, there can be varying degrees of leadership, decision making, and even control, so each one really is sort of a power spectrum. It is entirely possible for a wife to have absolute authority to punish her husband for anything, anytime, anywhere, any way she pleases, and at the same time for him to have almost absolute control of everything in their life and relationship, if she chooses to not exercise that authority she has. However, what makes a DD or FLR relationship different from vanilla relationships is that because the husband generally has some deep felt need for imposed discipline, if the wife wants to, she can assume control of pretty much anything she wishes; if she does, the husband almost certainly has the ability to prevent it, but he almost certainly won't. If you are a husband who really, really wants and even craves a DD relationship, the short answer of how much authority your wife has is "as much as she chooses to have."
In my marriage, we are equals in pretty much every way. This is a true partnership. If others were looking in from the outside, depending on their perspective, they might feel like I make most of the decisions, or they might think my wife does, depending on what they are looking at. In fact, we pretty much defer completely to each other's strengths; whoever knows the most about something will generally be in charge of that. I have quite deep knowledge of a pretty wide variety of topics and have had a broad range of experience in many different areas, mostly because I have never wanted to limit myself to becoming an expert on anything. Consequently, I end up making a large percentage of the decisions in our marriage - though obviously not for social things, since I AM an engineer after all! ;-) But because of my need for imposed discipline, my wife could veto just about anything she wanted to, and I would most likely fall into line.
-ZM
"If you are a husband who really, really wants and even craves a DD relationship, the short answer of how much authority your wife has is "as much as she chooses to have.""
DeleteAnother good point. In reading your facets of life list (household chores, attitudes, and interpersonal relationships, but also things such as finances, work, where to live, raising children, social life, and so on), it occurred to me that one often determines who ends up with "authority" in a particular area isn't tied only to who knows the most about that area but, importantly, to who cares the most about it. I think people looking at our relationship might see what appears to be a lot of equal decision-making, but the reality is that Anne has "won" on a lot of the bigger issues, including where to live, where kids should go to school, etc. If I had my way, we would have lived in much more urban environments and in completely different parts of the country. Her "winning" on those issues had a huge impact on other areas, like finances. There is no doubt in my mind that, while my career was successful, it could have been much bigger had I won on some of those fundamental issues around where we were going to live. So, how did Anne end up with more real "authority" on those issues even if we didn't officially allocate the decision-making power in those areas? Quite simply, she cared about them more than I did. I had interests and points of view, but the reality is she had big, overriding concerns about things like where the kids should go to school and about not living in big cities and, because she was against my preferences more than I cared about them, she won.
"G" wrote: " If you are a husband who really, really wants and even craves a DD relationship, the short answer of how much authority your wife has is "as much as she chooses to have."
DeleteYes, but my original expression of that dynamic omitted the "husband's needs / cravings" as the source of the wife's unlimited authority:
Donn, originally, wrote: "[The] husband might continue 'managing' certain parts of the marriage, and 'deciding' certain questions effecting the marriage, [but] these 'male powers' are only from the "forbearance" of the 'female's judgment.' With the 'female judgment' form of DD, she has the power to assert and control any part of the relationship she chooses . . ."
Face it, she has just "assigned" you the tasks she has decided will best utilize your skills.
Dan,
DeleteCompletely agree about the importance of who cares the most about something. I think it is some combination of interest and competence that ultimately determines who more strongly influences decisions in different areas of life. If you care enough about something to fight for it, you are certainly more likely to win.
And Donn,
I think we are basically saying at least close the same thing, that in this situation, the wife's authority is limited only by her desire and willingness to assert her control over anything and everything she wants to.
As far as you tying it back to your statement and re-quoting yourself, my posting was not a response to yours, so don't feel like I was in any way attacking or even disagreeing with your position, as I hadn't even referred to it. Rather, I was just posting my own opinion on this.
"...my original expression of that dynamic omitted the 'husband's needs / cravings' as the source of the wife's unlimited authority." - To me, it is important in understanding the whole dynamic that the wife's unlimited authority is only possible because of the husband's needs or cravings. If a wife were to try to assert unlimited authority over a vanilla husband, the likely outcome might be divorce court.
-ZM
I don't agree that in these dynamics that the husband just ends up with those tasks the wife has implicitly or expressly assigned. It's true that the husbands own needs or cravings may guarantee a certain degree of power or authority, but those needs or cravings would result in unlimited power and authority only to the extent the needs and desires are unlimited, which in my experience is seldom the case. There are unlimited permutations in these relationships when it comes to how various aspects of power and authority are allocated, whether expressly or tacitly.
DeleteHi Dan, excellent point. I think this is where the whole "when the rubber meets the road" comes in. The limit to her authority isn't really known until she tries to assert it. At some point, there obviously is a limit. My desire for DD is very deep and ingrained, but it is certainly not unlimited, particularly if something is in direct conflict with my core values.
Delete-ZM
Regarding the specific questions for this week:
ReplyDelete"For those who have gotten to that “anytime, anywhere, for any reason” (or some variation of it) end of the continuum, how has that worked out?" - It has worked out great so far, coming up on 7 years. However, as I have pointed out elsewhere, she has not tested the anytime, anywhere, for any reason very much. My feelings could change if she were to assume more control.
"Do you end up agreeing that the exercise of authority was “right” most of the time? Or, have you experienced something like what TG describes as a likely reaction when one doesn’t feel contrition, i.e., an angry or resentful feeling that a punishment wasn’t 'fair,' even if by definition it fits within that 'for any reason' grant of authority?" - Looking in the rearview mirror (at my flaming red bottom), I have never felt that a punishment wasn't fair. Many times, when she has decided to punish me, I have felt that it was unfair, at least until the punishment starts. I assume the biggest part of that is driven by not wanting the punishment. But inevitably, by the time the punishment ends, my perspective has completely changed, I fully understand her feelings and why I was punished, and I am in full agreement that not only was the punishment fair, but I probably deserve even more.
"In other words, it’s all well and good to say, particularly at the onset of a DD relationship, that her authority is virtually wide open, but what happens when the proverbial rubber meets the road?" - Excellent point. It is entirely different saying that before she has exercised that authority to its fullest than it is afterwards. I guess ask me again after she does!
-ZM
"It is entirely different saying that before she has exercised that authority to its fullest than it is afterwards. I guess ask me again after she does!" I find that taking any spanking is unlikely to stir up feelings of resentment, or certainly not big or lasting ones. For me, the issue is always real exercises of authority, i.e. stopping me from doing something I want to do, ordering me to something I don't want to do, etc. I guess I shouldn't be too surprised, given my decades-long battles with authority.
DeleteTrue. As I said above, inevitably after a spanking, I feel like it was deserved, regardless of how I feel in the lead-up or beginning of it. I too bristle at most authority (of any kind and in any situation), so I am not sure how gracefully I would deal with my wife actually assuming all the authority she could.
Delete-ZM
If you agree to give your wife or GF the authority to spank you anytime, anywhere, then you need to trust her to not abuse that authority. It takes time, risk, and honesty to establish the trust and love necessary for a real DD relationship to work. It seems most men and women have different motivations for going down this road. She may do it because she loves you, and she knows it's good for the relationship. Also, she can enjoy a way to vent her frustrations, and alter behaviors she doesn't want. Most of us guys are simply wired that way, but our women, not so much. While my behavior certainly has improved, the main benifet for me is knowing I will be kept in line and spanked on a regular basis. Because I often need discipline, as well as maintenance, it's a huge relief for me to be able to count on her to give it to me. My life and our relationship is much more stable because of it.
ReplyDelete"Most of us guys are simply wired that way, but our women, not so much." I'd agree with that, though I'm not sure the divide on wiring is men versus women but, instead, "bottoms" versus "tops." For reasons I can't totally explain, bottoms just seem to have deeper needs for this than do their "tops." In both male and femeal led relationships, the dynamic usually seems to be the "bottom" asks for it, while the "top" at first accommodates and later may, but may not, actively embrace it versus mere accommodation.
DeleteAgreed. I was mainly addressing us men, who are the primary readers and writers of this blog, and "our women" who are the tops.
ReplyDeleteWhen I met my wife I thought of her as feisty, and I found that attractive. I had no clue that it would turn into dominance or that my reserved manner would turn into submissiveness. (I don't use top and bottom because I think of them as reflecting sexual positions.)
ReplyDeleteI would describe our marriage as DWC DD rather than FLR. Anything of significance was decided together -- where to go on vacation, what car to buy, which couple we wanted to be friends with, where to live, etc. That's not FLR to me.
But the day-to-day operations of our home were totally her domain, and I just took my marching orders (or else). Eventually that authority spread to my behavior in all situations. She was of the opinion that most men are little boys in big bodies and need to be reined in by loving female authority (and loving included punishment that could be severe). I can't say I disagreed with her assessment. It certainly was true of me, and I agree with those here who say that by the end of a punishment I was in full agreement that it was justified, even if I strongly disagreed when ordered to lower my trousers.
KOJ
I think ours is closest to what you term DWC DD, but we've drifted into, or experimented with, things that are more FLR. I did have the difference illustrated for me recently, when a friend who is a "top" was considering a move to another country for a job opportunity. Her husband wasn't fully onboard with it, and it was causing them a lot of stress. She told me that, while she was still working through it with him, part of her thought that in the end she need to just tell him it was her decision, so it wasn't like he had an actual decision to make. That's the kind of decision-making power that represents a pretty strong power exchange, and it's not something we've done and probably never would. Though, as I said above, Anne has "won" a lot on bigger issues like where to live, not because we're in an FLR but simply because she's cared about them more than I did.
DeleteI'm not wild about the terms "top" and "bottom," not because they are associated with sexual positions but because they are associated with BDSM. But, I tend to go back to them because they're the least objectionable to me among other common options. I really don't like "dominant" and "submissive," because I don't consider myself to actually be submissive.
I agree Dan, that there are few terms for our mixed FLR/DD-marriages that correctly express the mixed dynamics.
DeleteIn our own marriage, my wife has consider terms like "Leader," "Superior" and "Supervisor." She usually chooses depending upon her particular context at the time, using "Leader" for when she is leading and making decisions about the relationship as a whole, and "Supervisor" when she is directly managing me.
For me, I'm basically the "Subordinate," which is accurate for almost all situations. The only exception is when she wants/needs to really emphasize power over me, when she uses "Oğlan" (Turkish: "boy") -- works well to put me in the right frame of mind for a "dressing down," or something much stronger. She can even use that term in public, as a warning to know my place, as most speakers of English have no idea of its translation -- people thinks it is just a "nickname," or her personal "term of endearment" (which, I suppose, it is)!
My wife used to say, "This is our home but it is my house," making it very clear that she was in charge of the day-to-day management of our household.
ReplyDeleteWe didn't use terms like top or Domme or even leader or supervisor. On a couple of occssions early in our DWC DD, I asked why she was getting to make a certain decision and she would answer, "You know why. Do you need a reminder?"
No, Ma'am!
And that is the term I did use. I naturally on my own came to say a lot of Yes Ma'am and No Ma'am, though she did not insist on it. I know that her friends hearing me using that courtesy title was one thing that triggered them to remark on my good behavior.
KOJ
I too use "Ma'am" when she's doing something dominant and not other terms like Domme or Head of Household.
Delete