One is not born a woman, one becomes
one. ~Simone de Beauvoir, The Second Sex
Hello all. Welcome back to The Forum, our weekly gathering of men and women in, or who would like to be in, Domestic Discipline or Female Led Relationships.
It was an odd week for me where all these themes we talk about--Domestic Discipline, Female Led Relationships, and submission in general--are concerned. I found myself, or at least my conduct, vacillating back and forth all week, and it's kind of been like that all year. As I noted at the beginning of the year, both my inner mischievous boy and my inner Alpha male seemed to be wanting to push to the forefront. That led me to think pretty seriously about whether I really, in my heart of hearts, wanted to keep exploring the FLR side of things, or whether a relationship confined to Domestic Discipline, i.e. getting spanked when I deserve one, was really all I need and want.
But, recently, things seem to
be tilting in the other direction. After
finding myself going all out Alpha, I started seeing the same old problems
arising. Like getting into battles at
work, much of it male "dick waving."
Many of the men will know what I mean -- colleagues and competitors
acting like dogs at the park, snarling and nipping until they work out the
hierarchy. Unfortunately, right now I'm
in one of those contests where the irresistible force is meeting the immovable
object, and all hell is breaking loose.
When I'm honest, I have to admit I kind of like those situations, but
they also end up wasting so much time and energy and brain cells. I also found myself slipping into the old
dysfunctional habits -- the whole work hard, play hard thing that sounds great
at the time but eventually wears you out.
I've also been contemplating a pretty significant career change, one
that would involve "stepping down" into a less prestigious, but in
some ways more meaningful, role. But,
the people in charge of it are struggling with whether I really could step into
something that would in many ways be less Alpha and that would be in a pretty
hierarchical environment that would require subordinating myself in ways that
have, admittedly, challenged me in the past.
At this same time, my wife
has been stepping things up lately, and I think her interest in the FLR side of
things is truly growing.
She isn't cutting loose fully yet, though we've also had a lot of family distractions getting in the way. What is changing again is I find myself really, really wanting her to cut loose. It doesn't necessarily mean big changes in what she does but, rather, in the way she engages with me. I want her to become the Alpha.
So, do I really want this? Taking our relationship in a direction in which she is even more explicitly in charge, and in charge of more things? Where I may be required to take more orders, subordinate myself more frequently and more openly? Truly, I don't know. Though, the fact that I have this trepidation is, in some ways, I sign that it's real. We're not talking about temporary role-play, but rather a real power exchange.
As for why I want it, I'm not really sure. Anna is right that part of it is probably that DD does seem to sort of naturally lead into something more sexualized, something more overtly kinky. Part of it is, I'm bored and need to try something new and different. And, part of it is conceding that while DD helps keep me in-line to some extent, it is a fairly limited extent as demonstrated by the ongoing nature of the some of the behavior problems. I feel like to get on top of them, I need to be subject to a level of control that is more pervasive, broader, deeper . . . more 24/7. I really want to at least try her stepping into a true Head of Household role, whatever that means in practice.
And, I don't think either of
us really knows what it does mean. I do
think it means being held more accountable more often. But, it's also about her displaying the
authority more regularly and more pervasively.
For those of you whose lifestyles are more than just DD and where the FLR aspect is more significant, what does that look like in terms of her authority? What is the communication like from her to you? What kind of decisions does she make? What control mechanisms does she use other than spanking?
For those of you whose lifestyles are more than just DD and where the FLR aspect is more significant, what does that look like in terms of her authority? What is the communication like from her to you? What kind of decisions does she make? What control mechanisms does she use other than spanking?
Hi Dan
ReplyDeleteGreat subject again.
It describes well the dilemma of wanting a full blown FLR or a wife as HOH and sacrificing some of our Alpha Male traits we enjoy so much.
I can say that I am not in an FLR and have no desire to have my wife as HOH and have settled on somewhat of a balance.
However I must confess I get a real thrill when she 'takes charge' especially when it is on her own initiative and not expected.
An example was last weekend when we were shopping and I reluctantly agreed to make a stop at a craft store for her to look for something.
It wasn't long before my obvious irritation bothered her but she took me by complete surprise when she turned and said "Do we have to go home right now?"
I was gobsmacked and a bit confused as that was exactly what I wanted!
However she continued , ".....because if we do we'll be having a serious discussion that you will not enjoy."
Being put in my place, in public no less ,stunned me but gave me a real thrill so well.
I was still silent when we were lined up waiting for the cashier and she surprised me again by adding "We are still going to have that discussion when we get home you know?"
She was fully in control now and I admittedly was quite enjoying it and she certainly was.
The fact it all developed quite unexpectedly added to the charge.
She remained in charge for the drive home , though out our 'discussion" and until a sound paddling had been administered.
Hi Glen. Yes! What you just described is what I am looking for. I can't say I exactly "want" it, but I think it would be both good for me and, as you say, exciting in its own right.
DeleteI really like the fact that she now takes charge and delivers discipline on her initiative and mostly when I least expect it , rather than the discipline being initiated by me and known in advance as it was in the beginning.It really allows me to let go and let her 'run the show' for a while which she enjoys as much as I do.
DeleteThe only drawback is that it doesn't happen as often as I would like and quite often she will let me off the hook by letting things go. This inconsistency actually adds to the excitement now.
I go back and forth on whether anticipation is better than "on the spot." To some extent it is an uneducated decision on my part, as the vast majority of disciplinary spankings I've been given have come a day or more after the offense. But, still, I do think that knowing I am going to be spanked at least several hours in advance does add to the emotional impact.
DeleteComing back to this...
ReplyDeleteHi Dan,
ReplyDeleteGreat topic as always! My relationship sounds a whole lot like Glen's. It isn't a "full-blown FLR" and overall we are equals. I also agree 100% with Glen that is SUCH a thrill when she takes charge, particularly when it is unexpected.
Right now, our relationship is exactly what I want, and I know she is very happy with it too. Of course it is evolving and will continue to do so, as all relationships do. I am honestly not sure exactly how much FLR I want, but certainly some elements.
Already she decides when, how, how much, and with what (yes, including with starting straight off with those "too painful" implements...) with regards to disciplinary matters. I think we are a little past DD with regard to this. She not only decides that I have broken a rule, and decides on an and administers the punishment (as would be the case in DD), but increasingly she is the one who is making the rules and setting the goals. So she is not only the judge, jury, and executioner, but also is the legislature as well. She has the authority to punish me any time she wants to, for any reason or even for no reason at all.
Regarding communication, I am not sure exactly what you were asking for? We communicate openly, clearly, and frequently about this part of our relationship. And in fact the punishments are very much a powerful form of communication, since they resonate with my strange need/want for this and really get my attention and cause me to think about things and also to clearly understand her feelings and perspective. As for communicating about behavior or punishments, if she sees something she doesn't like she would probably first bring it to my attention, like "did you just check that girl out?" If she sees a real problem or something ongoing, then it will just be a matter of fact, "you're going to be getting a punishment." Of course, we are still doing weekly check-ins because she is helping me get some momentum going in work, so she often communicates smaller things during those.
The decisions she makes are mostly setting goals for me or setting boundaries. The goals she sets are more "tactical" in nature, to help me achieve our mutual "strategic" goals. The boundaries are when she sees an action, habit, or behavior that she feels is inappropriate, hurtful, impolite, or generally undesirable.
However, she doesn't decide where we are going on vacation, what car we will buy, etc. Things like that will always be decided mutually, since we are equal partners.
At least so far, she hasn't used other control mechanisms other than spanking. As I mentioned a few weeks ago, we have done huge amounts of "alternative punishment" types of activities, but more in a playful/experimentation sort of way. And at least so far she has never grounded me, for example.
BTW, I totally relate to the work thing, because recently I have been doing some part time consulting for a company, and it has been a bit strange for me. Even though I am clearly in the drivers seat on all technical issues, it feels somewhat disconcerting for them to be making all the business decisions (though of course it IS their product that I am developing). Either way, it makes me feel a lot more like an employee than I have felt for quite some time!
-ZM
Thanks, ZM. Like you, i 'm not sure how much FLR I want, but by putting it in motion in the way I did, it may not be up to me anyway. But, it sounds like yours may be a little ahead of mine if she is setting boundaries and goals for you. Mine has tend up until now to be more about me suggesting those and then she enforces them.
DeleteHi Dan,
DeleteI wouldn't say that we are further along, since you have been at it a lot longer than us, and it sounds like your wife is very effective at disciplining you. My wife spanks very hard but almost always ends much too soon. While I am always happy for it to end, I am left knowing it would have been more effective had it continued. I know it is because we are still pretty new to this, and it is hard for her because she is always afraid it might be too much. I imagine if the roles were reversed I would have the same problem.
As for her "take charge" approach, I think that is more a reflection of who she is than in where we are in this aspect of our relationship. She faces everything in life head on and is very action oriented.
And in the end, this, like every other part of our relationship, is defined by both of our individual desires, needs, and personalities. Everything in relationship is about give and take and compromise. I feel incredibly blessed that my wife and I are so compatible in this, and that it more than meets my needs, and generally fulfills my desires as well!
Happy Easter!
-ZM
All great points, ZM. Happy Easter to you, too!
DeleteHappy Easter and April Fools Day to Everyone, Seems like an unusual combination. We fall into the same category as the rest of everyone. Moving more to a FLR, but still DD in most cases. You asked what other control mechanism are used, she will put me in chastity and that has a more significant impact than spanking, since I'm at her whim for my needs. Also she will peg me occasional, which definitely bring out the submissive side in me. She has recently made me wear her panties also. She will tell me in public, that if I don't straighten up we will have a talk when we get home.
ReplyDeleteI'm at the same cross road in my career, and considering retiring significantly early than planned just because the alpha fighting and personnel issues are getting old and it takes a toll on you over time. We have gone so far as putting the house on the market. So changes are a coming.
John
Hi John. Unusual combination indeed!
DeleteCareer issues are definitely the #1 stressor in my life. Head and shoulders above everything else. Still, I'm not ready for retirement, at least if retirement means giving up work, and probably income producing activity. But, it is getting closer and closer to a decision point regarding giving up my current gig, possibly for something very new.
DD vs FLR? Seems like a spectrum to me although having given general consent to being physically punished whenever and for whatever - unilaterally - in my mind makes any distinction a bit of a mute point! TB
ReplyDeleteTea Boy,
DeleteNo question that DD and FLR are part of the same spectrum. Also it seems obvious that by having your wife (or other) able to punish you unilaterally (domestic discipline) is definitely a sort of FLR, since she is clearly leading this part.
For me, the real distinction is found in who is setting the rules. If I set the rules and ask her to punish me for breaking them, then am I not really the one in charge? If we set the rules by mutual agreement (still well within the realm of DD), then we are sharing control. Once it crosses over to her unilaterally setting the rules and me agreeing simply out of respect for her and her authority, even if I don't necessarily like the rule, then to me that is starting to feel pretty female-led.
But you are certainly right that FLR is a spectrum ranging from being confined to disciplinary matters all the way to making all decisions, and probably more than that.
For me, I don't see us moving far out of the disciplinary realm, but at the same time, I really like it when she sets the rules, and when she is the initiator of discipline. To me, telling her I have done something wrong and asking her to punish me makes me feel like I am totally in control. But that is just for me. Others might feel much differently.
-ZM
This is all very consistent with my own views, including that me telling her when I have done something wrong with the expectation of being punished doesn't shift the power dynamic in any significant way.
DeleteAll good points. The difference for us I guess is that we have discussed and agreed some general principles and boundaries of good, acceptable behaviour such as respect, rudeness, moodiness, etc. Whilst I may occasionally indicate that I feel the ‘need’ the vast majority of punishments are decided by her now. In terms of FLR whilst she regards me as the ‘expert’ in many matters it has become unusual and frowned upon for me to make a completely unilateral decision on something that has any impact on both of us without her approval. TB
DeleteMy wife preferred to have the rule-setting be a collaborative process. Maybe it was her years as a Montessori teacher. Or perhaps it was just her nature (logical and very fair). It worked very well for us.
DeleteOne reason is because I often instinctively resisted and tried to avoid a spanking. And when I had sat there, face to face with her beforehand agreeing to everything, I didn't have much steam in my resistance.
Another is that beyond what you might call behavior rules were sometimes specific goals; achievements I needed to make and had asked for her help in the form of contractual timelines or other measurables. In those cases if I felt I had a justification for under-performing she would hear me out and then make a decision. Even then she would sometimes challenge my justifications and make me work it out so that I agreed to the punishment. (Which was always a squirming kind of discussion).
And then of course there were some unilateral rules that she simply decreed and I complied.
Dan
ReplyDeleteBefore I took over Peter and I worked out a set of rules.Some we have tossed out, others we still work on.
DD or FLR all just terms. I think there is no one set way. It is what you BOTH agree is how you want to live
your lives.
I have noticed whenever I get a firm hand on things, Peter tends to act our, usually at his work We work continually of how we want this to work. More and more we have become a FLR using DD to hold the reins steady.The moment that I see Peter submit to discilipline, when I know deep down he doesnt want it that moment is when i clamp down on rules and he seems to be both aroused by his submission. I want him to be proud that he can do this.
As usual i go on! be well submit and it will be what you want and need most.
anna
Hi Anna. It's interesting that Peter acts out at work after you get more firm. With me it kind of works the opposite. I tend to get more and more out of control when she is not clamping down on me hard.
DeleteDan
ReplyDeleteThe way ours work is that she makes the rules and goals. She likes to make honeydew list as well with time frames and are highly enforced. As far as the punishments go for miner stuff she lets me pick the implements and major offenses it is her non numbing skinny heavy paddle. She has started doing multiple spankings recently for what she feels are major offenses . This so far has been in a single day and the is no warning when the next or how many are come. My last one four in a single day.
Frank
It took me a while to figure out that skinny paddles really suck.
DeleteAll of these comments seem reasonable ast to definitions of DD and FLR. I have used DD for many years, always as punishment and discipline never eroticism . Bart hates the reality of the pain during the actual strappings, but always feels some relief after the sting subsides. I never change my mind after I have decided he needs to change his behavior. He may try to argue against my decision but that reinforces some of his feeling that he can use his power of persuasion. This may not be FLR because there are areas where he makes the decisions , but not about how I see his effect on others or our relationship
ReplyDeleteHi Sylvia,
DeleteI love this line: He may try to argue against my decision but that reinforces some of his feeling that he can use his power of persuasion
The FLR part looks like different things at different times. When stressed over money.....like we are again now......it looks a lot like a ghost of things past. But it is still part of us and even when it doesn't manifest itself emphatically, it's still there.
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry to hear that the money is a problem again.
DeleteThis site has been of great value to Sylvia and me. We have been discussing this FLR and DD question. Like Dan I am for outside appearances an Alpha Male. In the home I make a lot of the traditional male decisions about finances and day to household management and long term financial considerations. In this regard we may look like a traditional marriage . It when my responses to some of the decision I make cause me to be irritable or rude that the traditional dynamic gives way to DD. When I act out which is admittedly less now both because of advancing age/ maturity and my desire to avoid Sylvia’s strap when I do act up Sylvia assumes a somewhat maternal posture. I have tried on occasion to argue or justify my case. Outside the home before retiring I was an executive who could have my way and convince people I was right. As the old joke goes, Sylvia gives me a fair trial then straps me and on occasion washes my mouth,it’s hard for me to give up and submit but it works and when I have resisted I am always very sorry
ReplyDelete"In the home I make a lot of the traditional male decisions about finances and day to household management and long term financial considerations." Ours is close this. I make a lot of decisions about finances and long-term financial stuff. But, she handles most of the day-to-day finances and household management.
DeleteGlad to year you act out less with maturity. I cannot say I have gotten there yet. :-)
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI've debated answering this.
ReplyDeleteI am the Head of my Household. I have rules for the men in my Household, so I would say that it fits the description of a Female Led Relationship.
When rules are not followed, there is discipline, not to be confused with "funishment", which is spanking for fun. It's not sexual for me, but it does make me happy, and it feeds my inner Sadist as well as feeding Shilo's inner masochist. There's nothing sexual or sensual for either of us when it happens, nor do I feel sexual at all about it. I can't speak for Shilo, other than to say that I know he dislikes it when it is happening. What goes on in his mind afterward is another story.
I will give Shilo a hug afterwards, but post-spanking sex isn't something I do, even if it is funishment. I might occasionally allow him to worship me orally, but that is a rare thing.
When it comes to utensils, I pick them out, although I will sometimes allow Shilo to pick something out if it is funishment. The truth is that the discipline spankings work. Shilo rarely repeats behavior that I feel deserves a spanking. As far as I'm concerned, it's "Mission Accomplished."
I will often delegate power to either Shilo or Stitch, because each of them have their own talents and abilities, but I always make the final decisions. I also ask for feedback, and I will frequently decide that their idea is better than mine. No matter what though, I take responsibility for what happens.
Hopefully, you can find what works for you.
Merry, that was wonderful response. Why would you have debated answering?
DeletePart of my reluctance is related to the fact that I'm primarily a BDSM practitioner and sometimes I feel like that part of me is misunderstood.
DeleteMerry said "The truth is that the discipline spankings work. Shilo rarely repeats behavior that I feel deserves a spanking. As far as I'm concerned, it's "Mission Accomplished."
DeleteFor me, this is what it is all about as well. While I may have repeated certain behaviors after getting spanked for it, Aunt Kay's practice was to simply double it the next time. If things got to that doubled situation; you can bet I did everything in my power to not offend that way again. It was extremely rare in all our years to make the mistake of causing her to go to the third level. Maybe twice or three times in 25 years. It worked.
As someone who has been in FLR for the last 15 years of a long marriage, I’d like to answer your questions based on my experience. I’ll break my answer into parts.
ReplyDelete“For those of you whose lifestyles are more than just DD and where the FLR aspect is more significant, what does that look like in terms of her authority?”
First, domestic discipline is a small part of a comprehensive FLR, probably too small for the taste of many guys whose fantasy FLR begins and ends with DD. My spanking fantasies opened the door to FLR for us, but when my wife agreed to an FLR, she laid down strict rules about spanking. She would spank me when and how she saw fit. That means I am not allowed to suggest spankings or to critique the way she does it. She threatens spankings more often than she gives them, and when she does, they are short, painful (though not severe), and accompanied by a humbling verbal dressing down. Her point is, that FLR means I am ruled by her wishes, not that she is ruled by my kinks.
Dan, I find your act of rebellion in hiding the spanking implements that are “too much” interesting. I get your point. You want the experience of a drawn out spanking that enables you to savour the feeling of submitting. My wife has a strap in the “too much” category, and she likes it precisely because it enables her to chastise me sufficiently in about 20 seconds. I think she is able to read my involuntary body language (tensing, bucking) and my vocal cues (yelps or grunts) because she seems to know exactly how much makes me want it to stop. She will then stop and say, “Now pull up your pants, and don’t make me do that again.” I meekly and sincerely promise to do better.
Those short spankings are deeply humiliating for a couple of reasons. Firstly, they are always punishment for some real failing in her eyes, so I feel truly ashamed of myself. She has become a master at heightening my shame through rhetorical questions: “How many times do I have to tell you? What gets into your head? Aren’t you ashamed that your wife has to spank you like a little boy? Were you trying to provoke a spanking? Is that what this is about?” Second, my wife knows I have elaborate fantasies about long drawn out spankings, so her different way of doing it is a humbling dose of reality. She knows that when she tells me to pull up my pants after a short, intense spanking I am relieved. That feels humiliating because I feel she has demonstrated that I am not just a masochist, I am a wimpy masochist who can be quickly disciplined and dismissed.
Part 2
ReplyDeleteWhat does FLR “look like in terms of her authority,” and “what kind of decisions does she make?”
Generally, we behave like equal partners. We love and respect one another. We both have a sense of humour about ourselves. We know we can count on one another for support. But there is a difference which emerges around the kinds of issues that at one time were a source of conflict. Some examples:
1. We used to fight about the division of housework. We no longer fight about that because my wife expects me to do the cooking and cleaning. Period. Sometimes she will help out if I’m overburdened, but she makes clear she is doing that as a favour. Some things she never does. For example, she hasn’t cleaned the bathroom for years. I still don’t like housework for its own sake. But the unfairness of our FLR arrangement gives me a masochistic thrill. I also like the fact that freedom from domestic drudgery is a real benefit for my wife. We no longer hide this arrangement when we have guests. She will chat and drink with guests while I do the work of a 1905’s housewife, wearing an apron. Wearing an apron has a kinky feel to me in those situations. My wife periodically gives me a new apron as a gift. So far, she has never given me an apron a man would feel ashamed to wear, but she likes to tease me that she should get me a nice frilly pink apron sometime.
2. My wife doesn’t view me as a slave, so she grants me a fair amount of personal autonomy. She lets me make decisions about running the house, since I am doing most of the work, but I do report her, and ultimately I know my freedom is circumscribed by the need to have her permission. For example, if I want to go out with my buddies, I need her permission because she might have other plans for my time. She goes out frequently for lunch with friends. I rarely do, and when I do I need permission to spend money in a restaurant.
3. I handle the household finances because that bores her, but I report to her. She sets the priorities, and she has to authorize all major purchases. We make most decisions together through discussion, but if we disagree, I am ruled by her. For example, like most men I would love to upgrade our home theatre system. She has consistently vetoed that desire, preferring to spend money on travel.
4. She’s the boss in bedroom, meaning that her pleasure comes first.
What is the communication like from her to you?
For the most part, she speaks to me politely, saying “please” and “thank you”, though we both understand that her requests are commands. She can, however, be bossy when she is in the mood, and she doesn’t bother to restrain her bossy moods because she knows that pushes my buttons. She doesn’t have to order me around a lot because my daily tasks are a matter of routine. She will, however, mention specific tasks she wants me to attend to promptly. She praises me when she is happy with my work, but she scolds me, sometimes harshly, when she is unhappy with it. Her criticisms are truly bruising to my ego because she will explain in detail why I have done an inadequate job, and there is a double source of shame: she is treating me like a subordinate, and I can see that her criticisms are right.
Sometimes she uses phrases that really push my buttons. For example:
“I didn’t ask if you wanted to. You’ll do what you’re told.”
“I don’t care what your friends are doing. I’m not married to your friends.”
“Don’t make me tell you that again.”
“This place had better be spotless with I get home!”
“Turn off the television and come to bed. Now! I want a foot massage.”
Part 3
ReplyDeleteWhat control mechanisms does she use other than spanking?
Interesting question. My wife’s hairbrush is symbolically at the center of our FLR. That’s why I lay it on her pillow when I make our bed each morning. I value that symbolism because it feels so erotic to me. But I don’t honestly submit to my wife’s authority because I’m afraid she will spank me. I’d be more afraid if she threatened to throw her spanking implements away.
Here’s an irony. If I become argumentative or show negative attitude, my wife will ask, “Do I have to take your pants down?” I never give a mouthy reply to that question. Rather, I blush and reply meekly, “No, dear.” Likewise, if my wife says, “If this place isn’t spotless when I get back, you won’t be sitting comfortably at supper,” I always make sure the place is spotless. Why wouldn’t I try to provoke a spanking, given the erotic potency of spankings to me? I often ask myself that question. I think it’s because I am so grateful to have a wife who accepts me for who I am and who has agreed to rule me. I want to please her, and I don’t want to make a mockery of her authority by disrespecting it. I think that is a control mechanism built into my submissive sexuality, and my wife knows how to use it in a loving way that benefits us both.