Saturday, March 24, 2018

The Forum - Vol. 244 - Roles and Needs

"A woman should soften but not weaken a man."  - Sigmund Freud

Hi all. Welcome back to the Forum.  Our weekly gathering of men and women who are in, or interested in being in, Domestic Discipline or Female Led Relationships.

This week, the "gathering of men and women" takes on a special meaning.  I've always been a big fan of JGirl's The Taming of the Shrew blog.  https://ashrewtamed.blogspot.com.  She has dropped by here and commented from time to time, and I've done the same on her blog.  We've been chatting for a while about our common interest in Domestic Discipline and how it plays out similarly, or differently, in F/m and M/f dynamics.  As one might expect, my readership is mainly male and hers is mainly female, and we got to thinking it might be fun to pose some joint topics to both sets of readers and see where they come out.  We decided to begin with this one, which was a suggestion from one her commenters:

There is a lot of conversation around subs expressing higher "need"( which may or may not show up as neediness) for this dynamic..how does this play out in both M/f and F/m relationships?  

We've alluded to this a few times, but phrased slightly differently.  I might characterize the question as, in your Domestic Discipline relationship, does the disciplined partner have a greater need for the DD dynamic or show greater interest in it, than the disciplinarian?  To put it in more Dominance/submission terms for those who are so inclined, does the more submissive partner have more need for this lifestyle than does the Dom/Domme or want it more? And, who gets more out of it?  Another way to put it might be, does your Disciplinarian value the dynamic independently, or do they engage in the lifestyle mainly as an accommodation to you?   

This does seem to be an area where there is a big, big gap between DD fantasy and DD reality.  When you read Domestic Discipline spanking fiction, at least of the F/m variety, the spanking relationship is almost always initiated by the Disciplinarian and it is usually about serving her needs, specifically her need to tan his hide for acting like a jerk or being irresponsible.  But, that's not really how it works in real life, right?  Generally, in real life it's the husband who introduces his wife to this relationship and just hopes she doesn't laugh at him or think him a pervert.   

The fantasy is like this:


But, the reality is more like this, at best:


And, it also does seem to be the case that after DD is introduced into the relationship, it is the disciplined partner who tries to keep it moving forward.  He pushes her to be more consistent and more strict. To make it a more solid and stable and pervasive part of the relationship.

Now, I used to think this might be because women just have too much to do in their lives, so while the men are surfing DD blogs and fantasizing about being Disciplined Husbands, the Wives are taking care of little things like working, shuttling kids to school and soccer games, grocery shopping, cooking, etc. But, engaging with JGirl's commenters has caused me to rethink that, because it seems to be the case that in the M/f dynamic as well it is usually the disciplined spouse who has the higher emotional need for the dynamic and a deeper commitment to growing that part of the relationship.

For me, it definitely has been the case over time that I have been the partner who focuses more on that aspect of our marriage.  I introduced the concept of Domestic Discipline.  I am the one who presents journals to her telling her how I feel about it.  I am the one who has bought most of the instruments she uses. I am also often the one confessing to her my need for the accountability to be more strict and consistent. I do think, in all honesty, that this part of our relationship is more important to me than it is to her.  Though, that doesn't mean it's all about her selflessly accommodating my need.   She is very clear that she does like having the authority to make me submit to a bare-assed paddling when I'm bad.  She increasingly likes being in control.  And, she is becoming more openly dominant all the time and clearly enjoys that.  But, it's also true that she doesn't put the level of mental energy into all this that I do. So, we are somewhere in between the fantasy and reality versions depicted above.  Something more like:
Is that true in your case?  If so, what do you think explains why you need or want this kind of relationship more deeply than your spouse does?

Have a great week.

P.S. I learned a little lesson last week about broadening a topic beyond what I was originally interested in.  I genuinely did want to know whether being strapped or spanked on the thighs was common, and precisely one person answered that question.  Thanks, Merry!

41 comments:

  1. Submitting to spanking was my idea more so for release from a high pressure job. At first she was not into it but did it for me. As time passed she became more interested and wanted to spank me more often and started spanking for discipline. What does she get from it? in her words she likes the way I moan even hearing the ouches and ows and bottom wiggling. there is also the after care that SHE gets as my way of thanking her for spanking me, along with the oral words thank you dear for spanking me.
    archedone

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    1. Sounds like a fairly balanced state of affairs.

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  2. In Good Life land it is 100% clear I have the greater committment, am the one who enjoys and the needy one. Mrs GL is somewhere between accepting and slowly starting to mildly e joy. Whilst we don't act out my imagination I get enough to be content and I sense small bits of progress as we go along. Cheers Good Life Mickey

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  3. Even after this many years, I can't say I have ever "enjoyed" this lifestyle, though that was never my goal of course.

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    1. I'm surprised to hear you say that Dan.I would have thought that having a willing wife to give you the discipline you desire would bring you some enjoyment....although not at the time discipline is being dispensed.
      Perhaps ,like me, it's more gratefulness than enjoyment?

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    2. Right There are a lot of nouns I could probably use. I feel gratefulness, humility, challenged . . . but enjoyment really isn't one I would use.

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    3. I definitely enjoy the DD lifestyle, but I don't enjoy punishments, or even necessarily painful play, at least at the time. Probably, this is where the creative tension between between fantasy and reality is most evident.

      I have been turned on by spanking, domination, discipline, femdom, etc. for most of my life. The thought of horribly painful or humiliating things being done to me is also extremely arousing. At the same time, I don't really enjoy or crave pain in and of itself, so I am probably not a true masochist.

      I would say that I more crave real boundaries and real consequences and real control. But for the boundaries and control to be real, the consequences are absolutely necessary, and must necessarily be very, very unpleasant. I am much more turned on by the control aspects, and am mostly turned on by all of the activities just because of the control they demonstrate.

      For example, if I think about spanking right now, or the myriad of other activities we talked about in great detail last week, I will probably be turned on. But, at least at the time it actually happens, I don't enjoy or want it. If it is a real punishment, then it is also accompanied by a flood of guilt and painful emotions, which I want even less, though I do like the clearing of the air and the release of guilt that comes with it. I guess this dichotomy between how I feel "in the moment" and "the rest of the time" is what makes it possible for me to be truly punished by something that is also my greatest turn on.

      -ZM


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    4. Dan, I find your statement that you don’t enjoy DD intriguing. I wonder, if your wife suddenly decided that she didn’t want to spank you anymore, how would you feel? DJ

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  4. A very good article. I suspect that what you say about the male initiating DD is true in most cases. ("Generally, in real life it's the husband who introduces his wife to this relationship and just hopes she doesn't laugh at him or think him a pervert.") What often happens then is that the woman spanks her husband or boyfriend just to humor him, and then discovers that she enjoys doing it. She is happy to carry on doing it, but it is still the male who is more emotionally committed to discipline. For the woman it is an enjoyable activity for the bedroom (or elsewhere) but not such a big deal as it is for her partner.
    A few years ago my partner and I met a couple who have been in a DD relationship for many years. The wife certainly seemed to enjoy administering discipline, she caned her husband on his bare bottom in front of us. I noticed however that it was the husband who did most of the talking. When we asked questions, it was nearly always him who answered, while his wife nodded agreement. It made me wonder if it was really DD or a mutual interest in spanking and caning masquerading as DD?
    richard

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    1. I would see the fact that you met a couple and they instantly put on a show with a caning session was probably a pretty strong clue that what was going on was something other than DD

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  5. My pleasure Dan! Feel free to ask me anything you want to. 😊

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  6. Joe2 here,

    I followed the same path as the majority. I introduced and asked for spankings. My wife would be happy to stop. But she sees the value and so she helps me. She gets nothing directly from spanking me. Indirectly, she gets a better husband. The husband that we both want. I get the endorphins from the pain, an unwinding from the stress of my professional life, and the ability to enjoy my family while being more effective at work.

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    1. Hi Joe2. In an ideal world, this would be something that fulfills needs for both partners and that both feel happy to do. But, I think your comment points out that there is lots of give and take in good marriages. I do all sorts of things for my wife that I don't like doing but that helps her in some way. So, I can see how spankings could be like that.

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  7. I'm pretty sure that in the majority of cases it is the husband who introduces, drives the take-up and provides positive, encouraging feedback to the wife so that her technique, severity and frequency match or get closer to his needs. It certainly was in my case. That said once she saw the positive impact - fewer moods, more restraint, higher respect and a quick fire release from the drudgery of bickering & arguments, she has become a BIG fan. I know with surety that if I misbehave that I will get a strapping at the next opportunity. It's what I wanted, right? Not at the time of delivery but before and after. TB

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    1. Thanks, TB That "quickfire relief from the drudgery of bickering & arguments" is an advantage of DD that I under-appreciated when we first started. But, many DD wives have referred to it as a significant benefit.

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    2. TB and Dan,

      I go in the opposite direction when I am stressed. I shut down- stop talking and wanting to be alone. Not very good for the wife or the kids. Life losses its color. When I become withdrawn, that is the signal for my wife to suggest a good long spanking.

      As a side benefit, but a very important benefit is that I am willing to be more open to expressing my thoughts (with kindness and love). On more than one occasion my wife has said that we have conversations now that we never had before we started spanking. I think this has occurred because my wife has shown to me that she has not lost her respect for me, so now I can trust her on a deeper level.

      Joe2

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    3. I react that same way to stress. I want to be left alone to deal with it. But, I don't think spanking would work for me as a stress reliever in that situation. It's usually a particular thing that is stressing me out, and usually something that takes time and focus to solve. Under those circumstances, I think taking the time out for a spanking would just cause me to feel resentful and take time away from fixing the problem or getting through whatever the stressful event is.

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  8. Dan
    Let me speak from a wife's perception. When Peter and I married we were equals in all things. After the boys were born Peter seemed to feel that since he provided for us while I was at home with the boys that what he wanted didnt require running anything by me. I became annoyed. We ended up in marriage counseling and there I discovered Peter, longing to be spanked, was going to a professional domme. I was furious!
    I took to the spanking of him quickly. The results were that we became more balanced as a couple. I found that disciplining Peter reduced arguments and once again I felt a partner not a responsibility.
    As time passes for us at least, the sexual aspect of submission for discipline has colored our sex. The honesty that occurs after a discipline session has allowed us at that moment to be open and honest.
    Anna

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    1. Hi Anna. Our journey was pretty similar, though with a few small differences. I'm not sure we started out as equals. I always had a more out-front and bombastic personality. Careers and family exacerbated the situation, with me taking on bigger and more demanding job roles, while for the first few years she put more of her energy into the family (though she always worked). The balance got worse and worse until we discovered DD. And, our first discussions about whether to try DD were very explicitly focused on evening out the power balance.

      Like you, once it was introduced and she got over thinking it was kind of weird, she took to it very quickly. Looking back, what is more than a little surprising to me is how quickly she took to using more painful instruments like large paddles and straps and using them with zero mercy.

      We are probably a little behind you and Peter where the sexual aspect of submission is concerned, though things are tilting in that direction. And, as you all have watched over the last couple of years, I myself vacillate on how much I want our relationship to go in a more FLR or D/s direction. At the beginning of the year, I was moving back toward a more limited DD focus. Now, I seem to be going the other way. In any event, thanks as always for weighing in. I really appreciate your perspective and ongoing participation.

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    2. Dan
      You are well past DD only in your relationship! The heat of FLR is too deep in you. Give in to what it is you want and need.
      anna

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    3. I can give in. She has to give out.

      And, it may get there, but it's a long process.

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  9. If you consider that I met Shilo at a dungeon party, and that our first "date" was at the same dungeon a few months later, and I spanked him raw and figged him on that first date, then it's obvious that we both had a "thing" for spanking.

    Spanking was always a "fun" thing for us, so I was confused when he asked for disciplinary spankings, but I caught on quickly, and honestly, it's been a really long time since I've felt it was necessary to give him a disciplinary spanking.

    Shilo seems to be a quick learner, and I'd rather spank him for fun anyway. Still, if I ever felt discipline was necessary, I would discuss it with him and not just come at him with a paddle or brush.

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    1. This is one reason I'm kind of glad we don't mix erotic and disciplinary spankings. I think it would just confuse things for both of us.

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    2. I think you don't understand. I do NOT do erotic spankings. I have never done erotic spankings. I'm a sadist, remember? 👿

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    3. Hmm. From the dictionary. "Sadism": The tendency to derive pleasure, especially sexual gratification, from inflicting pain, suffering, or humiliation on others." Now, call me crazy, but isn't sexual gratification kind of like "erotic." :-)

      How about "disciplinary" versus "non-disciplinary"?

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    4. How about "disciplinary" versus "non-disciplinary"?

      Better. ☺

      I don't view my sadistic tendencies as being sexual. It's more on a happiness scale.

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    5. Merry and Dan, I totally get the whole "disciplinary" vs "non-disciplinary" thing. We do both play and real discipline. It is surprising that it is not more confusing, because many if not most of the activities are the same in either case. However, I can say that at least for me, the feelings are entirely different when it is real punishment for a real offense. Maybe the physical sensations are the same, but it still somehow feels entirely different.

      -ZM

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    6. Merry, I'm fascinated by your feeling that your sadistic tendencies aren't sexual, and that the pleasure you get from giving a spanking is a kind of "happiness" rather than erotic pleasure. I wonder whether we men are less perceptive about emotional states than women are, causing us to think in terms of erotic/non-erotic, which would seem crudely reductive to you? Or is it a difference between bottom and top? I wonder, is the happiness you get from spanking your partner to some extent the feeling one gets from applying a skill, any skill, in a manner that aims for excellence. As a bottom, I see topping successfully as a skill requiring great psychological subtlety and sensitivity. You are simultaneously bending your submissive to your will and giving the submissive an experience that both challenges and fulfills him. When you have the feeling that you giving your submissive exactly he needs, but in your own creative way, exploring his limits the way a musician explores the limits of an instrument, that must be incredibly empowering. Is that kind of what you mean, is that just a submissive's fantasy about the ideal dominant?

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  10. In my case, it was a "meeting of the minds"... When N. (before we married) jokingly told me I needed a "good spanking", and I confessed that I had been spanked before (at age 17, by a 35-year old woman), she immediately proceeded to administer the first of the many spankings I got... She soon added a paddle, a martinet - then a leather belt, a rattan cane, and a riding crop... not to mention the maple switches!... By the time I remarried (after N's untimely death), J. lost no time to apply the same disciplinary regime she had several times watched being administered by N...
    L.

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    1. True - but you seem to forget that N. had invited me a couple of times not only to watch but also to "give her a hand" with the hairbrush and the martinet!... When we started dating later, I know you expected I would use the same way to keep you 'in line' - and I certainly did!
      J.

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    2. Yes, I knew what to expect... and I guess I "appreciate" the way you do it...
      L.

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    3. "Meeting of the minds" is a nice alternative

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    4. It is - inasmuch as it means that L. is ready to accept what I think he deserves... and he does, even in the presence of one of my friends, or when my sister and I get together... and she "assists" me!
      J.

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  11. While always the initiator, I can't say that the reciprocation was always an indulgence of 'my need'. It was that way in my first marriage I think........but not with Rosa. It is much more mutual for us. She just needed the suggestion for everything already in her to click.

    I don't know about about my in-between relationships either, since all of those were usually the result of looking for companions from lifestyle sources. The two main ones who were from my RL circles also took to it without hesitation. It is why I have such confusion over the horror stories I hear fro those who say they can't find anyone like this. I can't believe I just happened to get 'lucky' over and over again.

    Eagerness from the other side seems to be based on how the issue is handled. I have found that certain kinds of women like the power of control.....as long as they still feel like their partners are otherwise "masculine".

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    1. I increasingly wonder whether the best general statement on origins is that disciplined husbands are born but disciplinary wives are made. It seems like the "bottoms" for lack of a better word, often have some innate need for this lifestyle, while the female "tops" more often begin vanilla but take to it easily. I don't have enough experience with male tops to know how it works. In engaging with JGirls' crew, it seems like there many of the men are much like our wives -- they were brought to it by the wives, and maybe accommodated it at first and then got into. Male tops in the BDSM community -- no comment.

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    2. Dan, there is a book you may find interesting: Perv: the Sexual Deviant in All of Us, by Jesse Bering. According to the scientific research presented there, women are much more sexually malleable than men. That is why many more men than women have erotic fetishes that seem to be obsessive and unchangable. We men seem to have erotic needs that are hard wired from early childhood (I know spanking is like that for me), and psychologists can do nothing to change that wiring. Sometimes, the result is tragic because it makes certain men incapable of having viable sexual relationships. Women, on the other hand, seem to have the ability to adapt sexually to their circumstances. That would confirm your feeling that “disciplined husbands are born but disciplinary wives are made.” My wife initially rejected my desire for DD. Some years later she agreed to provide DD within the context of a comprehensive FLR that gave her real control over our marriage and real perks of power. When I asked her what she liked about FLR a couple of years later, I was surprised that she mentioned spanking. I asked her whether she now got sexual pleasure from spanking me. She said no, spanking wasn’t sexual for her, but it was emotionally satisfying to be able to punish me when I annoyed her.

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    3. Thanks, Anon. I will add that book to my collection. Regarding your last sentence, I think that is the way it is for my wife as well. She doesn't get off sexually on spanking, but that doesn't mean it is not satisfying to her on some level.

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  12. Hi Dan, I am pretty sure that I can't adequately answer "why you need or want this kind of relationship more deeply than your spouse does?" since I don't even really understand why I need or want this so deeply!

    Having said that, when you consider that this has been a felt need for most of my life, as I expect it has been for many or most of the readers of this blog, and considering that my wife had never even heard of anything like this before, it is hardly surprising that I need this kind of relationship more than she does.

    However, as others have noted, she has really taken to all of this quickly, and has also taken it very seriously. I don't bring it up anymore, because she is quick enough to do so. She may not "need" this, but she feels very empowered by it, and definitely likes it, especially after being in a relationship before where she felt far from empowered.

    Anyway, she may not "need" it, but she has certainly quickly embraced it and it has become very easy and natural for her.

    -ZM



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  13. I think those of us who have wives who spank us should feel extremely lucky. Unfortunately, there are way more men who crave F/M domestic discipline than women who are interested in providing it. That’s why femdom is a major category of sex work. Most wives reject their husband’s desire for DD, either because they find it perverse or because they find male submissiveness sexually unattractive. Wives who provide DD may be motivated by a feeling that they have to give their husbands what they need in order to save their marriages. That’s why we submissive males need to be conscious of our tendency to be overly needy. Ironically, the femdom fantasy of serving one’s wife may correspond to a reality where the wife is serving her husband’s masochistic needs. I believe that a successful FLR requires a high level of communication in order to come to an arrangement of real benefit to the woman.

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  14. It took a number of years for us to work out how to best meet my deep desire to be controlled . Sylvia never combines sex and spankings. While I do have fantasies about soanking that turn me on I truly hate the spankings while I am actually feeling the strap. Sylvia has grown into a truly punishing spanker, while I don’t feelshe is a sadist she does love my behavior after the spanking. I always am clear about why I got spanked and rarely make the same mistake , at least not for a long time. Do we both get a lot from this arrangement

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