“Nothing is as frustrating as arguing with someone who knows what he's talking about.” - Sam Ewing
Hello all. Welcome back to The Disciplinary Couple’s Club. Our weekly on-line gathering of men and women who are in, or would like to be in, a Domestic Discipline relationship.
I hope you all had a good week. Ours was pretty sedate, though I somehow still managed to do two things that probably will/probably should earn one or more spankings. First, there was yet another incident with the garage door. Second, Anne and I got into mini-tiff about something. More on that below.
I thought last week’s conversation was fun and interesting. Let’s face it, none of us know what we’re really letting ourselves in for when we persuade our wives to try one of these relationships. But, the variety of ways in which reality diverges from our expectations is expansive. One that many of us share is genuine surprise at just how much a real spanking hurts. As Al put it:
“By far the biggest shock - Just how much spankings really hurt! I had read that nothing could actually prepare you for how much they hurt - and even incorporated the idea into some spanking stories I wrote (before actually being a spanked husband) - but nothing really prepares you for that first real - long and hard - spanking.”
I’ll go one further and say that I am constantly surprised by how much it hurts, and that happens almost every single time! Over the almost twenty-year history of our disciplinary relationship, I have received dozens of hard spankings. Wouldn’t you think that by now I would have a pretty accurate impression of what they are like? Yet, I find that no matter how often I recall past spankings or contemplate future ones, the recollection or expectation never remotely matches the reality in terms of just how much it really hurts!
We also got a couple of great comments from new commenter BenB about spanking as “retribution” and as a “teaching instrument” (emphasis added by me):
“Retribution is an interesting topic. For me, my deep fascination with spanking, since early childhood, was always bound up with an idealised order characterised by perfect balance. In a world where children were spanked by wise, loving parents, children misbehaved and inevitably got the punishments that they deserved, wiping the slate clean. This wasn’t the world I lived in. My parents gave occasional smacks but never proper spankings, and as far as I knew the same was true for the children I went to school with. (I think spanking was much rarer in the UK than the US by the 1980s - only once have I met someone from England my age who’s mentioned being spanked over the knee as a child.) I remember feeling almost frustrated by the imbalance of a world in which I never really got punished properly for bad things I did, and nobody else seemed to either. My fascination with spanking was erotic, but I didn’t understand that at the time. – BenB”
“I’m not sure it’s something I got wrong, exactly, but one of the things that continues to amaze me is how well spanking works as discipline. If you understand the point of punishment as deterrence, that makes no sense at all (because I yearn for spankings). But I’ve come to appreciate that this is too one-dimensional a way of thinking about discipline. Disciplining is fundamentally about teaching, and we’ve found that spanking is a very effective way for Emma to secure my full attention and drive a message home! With us, there’s never been any disagreement about the standards of behaviour she’s enforcing, so her spankings serve to make me confront my own failings and remind me that she expects better. (They have a retributory quality to them too - I get them simply because I deserve to suffer.) Before trying DD, my understanding of how and why it would work as behaviour modification was (by comparison) simplistic and flawed. – BenB”
While I think DD does sometimes serve a purely retributive purpose for Anne, for me retribution is, at best, a secondary motivation. For me, the primary motive for DD is about consequences and the guardrails they impose.
But, I think there is an aspect of my motivation that is kind of the flip-side of retribution, namely penance. Although it doesn’t happen all that often, sometimes I am disappointed in myself to such an extent that I feel my butt needs to pay a price, regardless of whether any behavioral change results.
“That [a reward system] somehow has led to a recent shift into a more FLR dynamic over the last three weeks. Emma made the big step (or so it felt) of ending a couple of arguments by spanking me earlier this year. Something about that prompted us to shift (at my instigation) to a situation where she’s straightforwardly in charge. Whenever we disagree, she can put her foot down and win, no arguments. It’s produced a significant shift: she’s started disciplining me for things that annoy her rather than things we both agree are spankable offences. I love it (and hate it, of course). A big part of the reason it works, I think, is that she gets a lot out of it. She no longer feels she needs to bite her tongue for fear of starting an argument with me. She’s enjoying watching me backpedal and apologise for things which, before, I’d have stood my ground on. It’s been an instructive change. I’d not realised how dominant I’d been in our relationship until I suddenly find myself having to bite my tongue for fear of irritating her to punishment levels. For now, at least, and I know it’s early days, Emma seems to be seeing major benefits from imposing the more severe, DWC-style level of discipline that come with this change. – BenB”
Al had a somewhat similar comment regarding arguments and attitude adjustment:
How effectively and quickly a sound spanking can actually adjust the male attitude and dissolve marital tensions. While I had read about this in both nonfiction articles and spanking stories, I never expected it to be as effective as it has proven to be. Invariably, when I am spanked as a result of an attitude issue (quite often) and the resulting marital tension, we both feel much better emotionally after the spanking. My attitude is always immediately improved by a sound bottom blistering, and my wife is always in a much better mood after having done the bottom blistering. --al
To an extent, every argument involves the parties’ respective perceptions of the power dynamic between them. It seems to me to be very significant when a wife, such as BenB’s, suddenly discovers she has the power to bring arguments to a quick end.
That brings me to our topic and the little tiff with Anne this week. It happened just yesterday. In the scheme of things, it was pretty minor. I won’t bore you with all the details, but let’s just say I got frustrated by what I felt was a meandering attempt to make some point she wanted to make, and I let my frustration show. Her view was I snapped at her. My view was she wasn’t giving me the information I needed to understand what the hell she was getting at and taking three times longer than necessary to get to her real question.
The two views aren’t necessarily inconsistent. A full day after the tiff, I still think I was right about the meandering nature of the conversation, but I’m more willing to admit that my reaction to it was fairy childish and aggressive. It's exactly the kind of thing I've argued she should really put her foot down on, and I've linked it very explicitly to a "maternal" dynamic. What mother would put up with her son talking to her like that?
It fits pretty nicely with BenB’s observation: “I’d not realised how dominant I’d been in our relationship until I suddenly find myself having to bite my tongue for fear of irritating her to punishment levels.” There are, I think, times when I simply don’t perceive how forceful/domineering my deep voice and fairly emphatic speaking style can seem to others.
An hour or so after the incident, I kind of grudgingly tried to steer the conversation back to her original question. She wasn’t having it. She told me that she was still pissed off at me and that was why I could expect a good spanking for it. So far, it has happened. But, I won’t be surprised if it does. The timing is, frankly, better this way. At least from my perspective. Had she done it yesterday, I think it would have been pure retribution from her perspective and very ineffective from mine. I was still deeply in denial and convinced of the rightness of my own position.
Though, I may be wrong about that. I’m often surprised at how many times I can change my mind about my own rightness while in the middle of getting a hard spanking.
So, the general topic for the week is settling arguments, or simply bringing them to an abrupt end, with a spanking. Is this something your wife does? If so, is it a tool she took a while to adopt, as happened with BenB’s wife Emma? Or, did she latch ahold of that power early in the relationship? What is the timing between the argument and the spanking? Does it happen immediately or after a substantial pause for emotions to cool? Is it a substitute for talking things through, or is it meant to humble you to the point that the two of you can talk things through?
Does she use it to bring all arguments to a halt or only arguments about certain topics or that involve a certain attitude on your part?
Have a great week.
This week's topic is one of those where my imagination for what FLDD should look like outstrips by some distance the reality. It was part of the unacceptable behaviour list I concocted that all arguments could and should be curtailed by Mrs GL indicating I had to accept her position when she had enough (something I knew would be very difficult for me to accept because a lot of our disagreements find extra gears when I don't understand why she hasn't accepted my point of view and thus like Dan has this week I raise the volume level with a verbal snap). Implicit in this is if I don't Mrs GL gets to chastise. Notwithstanding the importance of not spanking in anger the theory has its merits.
ReplyDeleteThe practice isn't there, partly because having made a very long list of behavioural faults I am genuinely working on them (and not deliberately trying to provoke a disciplinary response, which I know sounds counterintuitive to what I want) and also because Mrs GL came up with the wheeze to make a loss of time over her knee a consequence! I cannot tell you how frustrated that gets me!
To be fair to Mrs GL the issue may be where I set the line isn't where she does. For example, losing my glasses carelessly at a gig earlier this week (and consequently having to spend good money replacing them) should in my book cost my bottom some grief, Mrs GL thinks differently and is considering a time deduction from next weekends maintenance instead! Having given her argument ending privileges, the right on where behavioural lines are, the power to treat me like the male in my avatar by having the approach of the female it seems to me really unfortunate her lines are so much higher than they need to be. Cheers GLM
"Notwithstanding the importance of not spanking in anger the theory has its merits." I'm OK conceptually with spanking in anger, though Anne rarely does it. I think there probably is an inherent tension between not spanking in anger and consistency.
DeleteI think that when the wife is angry is an excellent time to spank. It conveys her anger leaving no room for misunderstanding. As you say, if the spanking is not delivered when she is angry it may not be delivered at all, and if eventually delivered, it is certainly is less likely to be delivered with the impetus that the situation warrants.
DeleteMy most effective spankings have been delivered when my wife is truly angry about something that I have done... afterwards the slate is wiped clean and we are good. I always want her to spank me when she is angry.
Mark, I agree, though there are times when the goal of such a spanking would probably have to be pure retribution. When we had our recent argument, for example, I was very locked up in my own point-of-view, so had she spanked me at that moment it might have made *her* feel better but I don't think it would have done a thing about me accepting responsibility or changing my mind. But, sometimes maybe that's OK. And, I have experienced times when a spanking actually can bring me around to her point of view. But, usually those spankings haven't occurred in the heat of the moment.
DeleteInteresting topic. At the onset of this, my second 24/7 FLR, we both agreed we dislike arguments and would not have any. We have very few, so for the most part we have achieved our goal. There are times when I forget of lose my composure and verbally disagree with her. After a few exchanges, we both realize an argument has erupted. We both go silent and I get a paddle and bring it to her and receive a lengthy paddling. It is much like two of the pics that accompany your write up… The one where she is saying “Don’t argue with me” and the other where the husband agrees during his spanking. My paddling ends the ‘discussion’ and life moves on. I then realize I have been spanked, not for my difference of opinion, but for arguing about it. I am not saying she is always right and I still hole my own opinions, I just don’t verbalize them. Another great pic you had is the one that says, a wiseman once said nothing.
ReplyDeleteNot sure why this was originally posted as Anonymous, but it is from me SpankedCowboy
Delete"I then realize I have been spanked, not for my difference of opinion, but for arguing about it."
DeleteObviously, an important distinction,
I think it's important (or at least it's important in our house) to distinguish between disagreements and arguments. J and I disagree about all sorts of things all the time, both factual and subjective. Our rule is that if I disagree about something, I should tell her and respectfully explain my perspective. All that's fine, and sometimes she accepts my point, sometimes not. But then I must accept her authority as final. Pestering her to change her mind, arguing around in circles (as she calls it), or, worst of all, defying her authority, is the quickest way to find myself seriously punished, and a few painful experiences were all it took to drive that lesson home very well.
ReplyDeleteShe doesn't lord her authority over me, but I'm DEFINITELY expected to respect and abide by it.
K, I think your distinction between disagreements and arguments is useful. My wife is not totalitarian. She doesn’t expect me to pretend to agree with her about everything, and I can even argue, as long I do it in a way that is respectful. What my wife doesn’t like is that I can be “argumentative”, meaning that I get overly invested in proving that I am right instead of letting go of an argument once it is clear neither side is going to back down. I have on a couple of occasions been spanked for being overly argumentative about politics at family gatherings or other social events. She has successfully trained me to be less argumentative in general, and a warning look is enough to make me less argumentative in public. Although I am pretty sure she would never spank me at a party the KOJ’s wife spanked him, I do think there is some risk of a public rebuke that would show people she wears the pants.
DeleteGH
"But then I must accept her authority as final. Pestering her to change her mind, arguing around in circles (as she calls it), or, worst of all, defying her authority, is the quickest way to find myself seriously punished, and a few painful experiences were all it took to drive that lesson home very well."
DeleteK., I'm curious, does that extend to most or all decisions, including important matters? I have a friend who is the top in an FLR. At one point, a dispute arose between her and her husband about whether they should move out of the country for a big job opportunity. After listening to his point of view many times over and extended period, she finally just told him that under their FLR arrangement it was her decision to make. We haven't gone nearly as far as that down the FLR road, but I can also see that at some point, there has to be a mechanism for deciding really important, contentious issues that are never going to be a win-win.
We have some boundaries. She leads our household and our daily, social, romantic, and sexual lives, On major life things, like health, relationships with close family, big-ticket finance, career, etc, we go back to being equal partners. I think our boundaries are probably typical, and healthy, for FLRs
DeleteK, the way you describe the boundaries of your FLR, yours is very similar to ours. That probably is typical, as you say, because most women probably want an equal partner when it comes to major life decisions, even though they lead when it comes to routine stuff. GH
DeleteWe rarly argue, so I don't get spanked for that. If she senses I am in a cranky or gloomy mood, that could easily cause me to get a spanking, especially if I am bringing her down.
ReplyDeleteBeing a "glass half empty" sort of guy until fairly recently, now I feel grateful and appreciate things more, because of her efforts at confronting my crankiness. I am usually punished more often for forgetting things. Like BenB, we both feel more intimate and connected after a good spanking. My childhood was much like Dan's, and there were few boundaries. My G/F and I agree that our DD is a form of reparenting, and I do better with guardrails and consequences.
"Being a "glass half empty" sort of guy . . ." Although not overly so, I do have aspects of that, too.
DeleteI don't know whether our DD is a form of reparenting, but I suspect that is part of my attraction.
I think there is a strong analogy between spousal DD and parenting. For example, it’s amazing how much my wife’s spanking threats sound like my mother when I was a kid. I don’t know whether my wife is conscious of sounding maternal or whether it is just that there are so many ways of threatening a spanking so certain expressions are inevitable in a disciplinary relationship. This may be off topic, but I want to comment that I find the picture Dan posted of a wife spanking her husband over her knee really arousing, even though my wife doesn’t spank OTK because she finds that position awkward, given my size. Why does the fantasy of being spanked OTK have such a grip on me? I think it must be because OTK is the archetypal mother/child spanking position. Sorry for going off topic.
DeleteGH
For a very long time (most of our DD history, in fact), we did not do OTK because it was awkward and, hence, less effective. We tried it again a couple of years ago and found ways to make it work. I think Anne now actually prefers it to other positions.
DeleteInteresting topic. I will answer Dan’s questions in order.
ReplyDelete“So, the general topic for the week is settling arguments, or simply bringing them to an abrupt end, with a spanking. Is this something your wife does?”
Yes, she does. In fact, I would say that curbing my tendency to be argumentative is the main function of spanking in our FLR.
“If so, is it a tool she took a while to adopt, as happened with BenB’s wife Emma? Or, did she latch ahold of that power early in the relationship?”
She latched onto it immediately. Before FLR our most heated arguments involved the fair division of housework. I think she found it extremely gratifying that she had the authority to tell me what was fair and to end any arguments with a spanking or the threat of a spanking.
“What is the timing between the argument and the spanking? Does it happen immediately or after a substantial pause for emotions to cool?”
Most spankings happen on the spur of the moment. Most often just the threat of a spanking humbles me enough to stop arguing. If I push it a little too far, she will say something like, “You know what? I’m not going to argue about this. You can just go to the bedroom and take your pants down.” When she says that, I know I am going to be spanked. I don’t think she feels any need to let emotions cool because she puts an end to arguments before I annoy her too much, so her usual demeanour is one of calm determination, not anger.
“Is it a substitute for talking things through, or is it meant to humble you to the point that the two of you can talk things through?”
The type of argument she spanks for doesn’t usually leave much to talk through. For example, suppose I have done the dishes and cleaned up after supper, but I have not completed the job to her satisfaction. Maybe I have not adequately cleaned the sink or washed the stove top. She scolds me for that. I get defensive, and instead of accepting the criticism, I fall back into my old habit of arguing. Once she has put an end to the argument by imposing her disciplinary authority, there isn’t much to discuss.
“Does she use it to bring all arguments to a halt or only arguments about certain topics or that involve a certain attitude on your part?”
No, not all arguments. It’s usually when I become argumentative because I am too proud to accept valid criticism without being humbled. She wouldn’t spank me for having a different opinion about something with no immediate domestic significance.
GH
"“You know what? I’m not going to argue about this." I'm sure the color would be draining from my face at that point. I really gravitate toward those kinds of direct threats.
DeleteLove that "color would be draining from my face"... Exactly how I feel when a spanking has been decreed!
DeleteMy wife often brings arguments to an end just by threatening a spanking because the reminder that I subject to that kind of discipline humbles me enough to make me stop arguing. Strangely, spanking threats in public places are highly effective, even though she couldn’t follow through. If I am being argumentative when we are out somewhere, she might say, “Do I have to take down your pants and spank you right here? Don’t think I won’t do it!” She might even give me a warning smack on the seat of the pants. Obviously, she couldn’t really do it because we would get arrested if she did. But the very thought of it is enough to end an argument. KOJ’s story about being taken upstairs for a spanking at a party really affected me because I suppose it would be theoretically possible for my wife to do something like that. I wonder whether other guys here are as responsive to threats as I am.
ReplyDeleteGH
Even the best FLR's have arguments. However, the imbalance of power that exists in these relationships keep things in line. Spankings help also!
ReplyDeleteDev and I have been together over 30 yrs now. I have never won an argument. Many times I have been in the right but I give in to just keep the peace. There were several harsh spankings given in order to accomplish this. A “ woodshed “ visit was carried out a few years ago. It was particularly hard and long. I truly did have trouble walking and sitting for a couple days. Our daughter was over one day and she confirmed my side of the story. Dev was apologetic but the damage was done. JR
ReplyDelete"Dev and I have been together over 30 yrs now. I have never won an argument." That may be true of me as well, though not always because of DD.
DeleteI'm kind of glad nothing like being factually wrong about the basis for a spanking has happened with us. I think my wife might feel so guilty that it would make her even less consistent.
That’s where for us DD and FLR don’t always work. When JR says he hasn’t won an argument for over 30 years. I can’t attest to that same sentiment in our household. I’ve won some and lost some. My wife admits when she a wrong and so do I. We rarely argue which is great, but my wife doesn’t truly want to run the household. It’s just too much work. As I’ve said before, my attitude or shortness gets me spanked. One night, I pushed her buttons and she said,” don’t
DeleteMake me send u out to cut a switch”. I haven’t heard that one before and I piped down quickly.
I’m still awaiting for the implements to arrive that she ordered. I don’t mind constructive criticism and no offense to anyone here, but our wives are not always correct and I won’t agree just for the sake of agreeing. I do make my point respectfully.
T
"I don’t mind constructive criticism and no offense to anyone here, but our wives are not always correct and I won’t agree just for the sake of agreeing."
DeleteAgreed, and certainly no offense to me. I hate that, "My wife is an infallible Goddess . . ." BS.
I think my experience in this area may be atypical. We argue very little and on those rare occasions, it is not seen as punishable. This is quite distinct from saying or doing something that upsets her, and totally different from me just being in a lousy mood for no particular reason (which I’m really trying to get her to respond to in the behavior notification arena.) A disagreement, even when it descends into an argument has never been seen by either of us as being punishable. TG
ReplyDeleteThanks, TG. And, fyi, I don't want anyone to get the impression that Anne and I fight often. We don't. Which is probably why she hasn't typically resorted to spanking to deal with it -- when it does happen, it usually surprises both of us.
DeleteI would never even fantasize about a relationship where arguments or differences of opinion are addressed with punishment. Fortunately, my fetish doesn't align with that scenario anyway. There must be some legitimate and tangible offense for punishment to match my interests. I think the basic desire for hierarchy is a possible factor in how many relationships operate. It's not that the wife is an infallible Goddess, and the husband is a slave to her every wish and opinion, but that seeing the relationship in those uncompromising terms is the most exciting dynamic. My guess is that, at least in many such cases, when push comes to shove, husbands will see reality and reject what they should find unacceptable.
DeleteBrett, I don’t see my wife as an infallible goddess. And I don’t see being spanked for being argumentative as a way of settling differences of opinion. My wife doesn’t spank me for having different opinions or even for expressing differences of opinion. She spanks me for getting too invested in arguments and needing to win because of stubborn pride. It’s also a question of attitude, I suppose. For a hierarchical relationship in which one partner has disciplinary authority over the other to work, there needs to be respect, and not knowing when to stop arguing can be seen as disrespectful. I suppose it’s a bit like being spanked for “talking back” to your parents when you were a kid.
DeleteGH
GH, I think disrespect is a legitimate offense, so that works for me in a discipline dynamic. It's a little trickier than talking back as a kid because, at the end of the day, we're both adults. Though the whole idea of spanking is tied to a parent-child authority kind of relationship, role play or age play is not a draw for me. Where does one draw the line between an adult good-faith meaningful argument, and just being stubborn? How long should an argument last, and who decides when to shut it down when it becomes too difficult? As a kid, I knew when to back off simply because my parents had the upper hand. I can't live that way as an adult. Punishment is a consequence for certain kinds of failure, irresponsibility and bad behavior. Disagreement is not disrespect. In an egalitarian relationship, if actual disrespect is shown, then it deserves to be punished and, under the conditions I imagine, strict parental methods are used.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteWe don't use spanking to settle arguments or differences of opinion but a spanking could result if I don't respect our 'rules' during the argument.
ReplyDeleteSo as long as I listen , don't interrupt or put down her opinions then I'm on safe ground.
That last one can be tricky though!
Yeah, there definitely is a very fine line between explaining what is wrong with someone's opinion and putting it down.
DeleteYes, interrupting and failing to listen are things that get me into trouble.
DeleteSynchronistically, I was reminded just this morning that it really is smarter for me to "hold my tongue" (so that I don't have to "hold my ankles" - as advised in the meme in this week's blog post). Now my ass is so sore that I am literally sitting on a pillow as I work at my computer.
ReplyDeleteIt really seems like I must have some sort of memory issue - because I just seem to completely forget that allowing myself to start arguing with my wife almost always results in a well blistered bottom - just as I forget each time just how much that ass blistering is going to hurt.
We are both unquestionably alpha-oriented by nature (and we both have advanced degrees and had successful careers - so we both tend to have a degree of confidence and assertiveness) - so arguments almost seem unavoidable from time to time. And, really, a civil discussion of philosophical differences would be fine with her - but my male alpha tendences seem to push me over the line much more often than not. And then soon thereafter, I am assuming the position - and there will be no more argument - just contrition and a very sore behind. --al
I definitely understand the memory issue. It's not like I'm in the middle of an argument and ignoring the little voice telling me to stop or I might get spanked. Rather, it just never occurs to me at that moment what the consequences could be. It's really the same with consuming too much alcohol. After drink one or two, the prospect of being spanked literally never crosses my mind.
DeleteI hadn't thought about the "advanced degree" connection, but you're probably right. While they may broaden one's perspective, they also tend to make you more sure of your positions. I had a friend who said of her highly educated husband, "He's not always right, but he's sure always certain."
We rarely argue. We just don’t. What has happened is that when under a lot of stress I have (totally unjustified) lost my temper with Ann. The last two times this happened were before house guest, so we only needed the dog to be at daycare. I was badly spanked four days in a row. Ann purposefully said she was spanking me each day as if it were the first. So after doing that twice in the space of a couple years, I have not repeated it in more than 5.
ReplyDeleteOuch!
Delete"So, the general topic for the week is settling arguments, or simply bringing them to an abrupt end, with a spanking."
ReplyDeleteHard to say, but I suppose my wife tends to use it when the discussion is clearly no longer useful, so leaning more towards the latter.
"If so, is it a tool she took a while to adopt, as happened with BenB’s wife Emma? Or, did she latch ahold of that power early in the relationship?"
Pretty much straight away.
"What is the timing between the argument and the spanking? Does it happen immediately or after a substantial pause for emotions to cool?"
The spanking tends to happen at the end of the day regardless, of whether this be a long time after the argument or shortly after. The general idea is that nothing festers beyond the end of the day and we have conjugal relations with the issues of the day resolved.
"Is it a substitute for talking things through, or is it meant to humble you to the point that the two of you can talk things through?"
It is more the former for us. As mentioned, it tends to happen when discussing things any further is no longer useful, but I like that it is a substitute for talking things through. I wouldn't say I am a great communicator in this area, so spankings are a great alternative for me because they relieve me of this burden. I would definitely recommend them to men who are not great at communicating to resolve things, provided he and his wife agree on a ground rule of the issue being over after the spanking. Or maybe men who work long hours to keep things ticking over and just want something simple to resolve anything festering, so that they can then move on to conjugal relations that evening, rather than enduring say pouting, the silent treatment, denial etc.
J
The pouting, silent treatment, and denial were what my wife observed growing up. It's a good thing DD came along before she became her mother in that respect.
DeleteIndeed! It is a behaviour that exists with many married couples and I could not truthfully say that all married couples in our family have avoided such unhelpful patterns! I hear about male colleagues of mine enduring this reasonably regularly as well.
DeleteUnfortunately, since we are not in a situation where we are ready to go fully public about our DD arrangements, I am not yet in a position where I can openly let my colleagues in on why I have my stomach full and balls empty at the end of the day. My wife is careful not to create marks during a DD spanking, as this would give the game away in a communal showers situation. But maybe, for all I know, I have other male colleagues receiving DD whose wives are also careful not to make marks on their buttocks? Do you and your wife also have to do things like this to stop others finding out?
J
When we first started DD, my gym had communal showers, and there were times I'd have be very selective about when to shower and under which head. But, that hasn't been the case for several years. Now, the only time I would really be at risk is if I forget to wear a towel in the gym or at a doctor's appointment.
DeleteJ, some years ago I used to go to a gym that had communal showers. One day I noticed that the guy under the shower across from me had a red bum. Not just faintly red either. The colour was striking. I wasn’t yet receiving DD from my wife at the time, but it was something that I fantasized about, so I couldn’t help wondering whether this guy’s bum was red from a spanking. If so, he didn’t seem to be self conscious about it. He turned his back to me a couple of times, and I couldn’t help looking at his bum and wondering why it was so red. If my bum was red from a spanking, I would be embarrassed to reveal it to other men. I wondered whether there was some other explanation for his red bum. For example, could a lengthy session on a rowing machine have had that effect? In that case, he may not even have been conscious that he looked like he had been recently spanked. I would have liked to ask him, but I couldn’t very well have told him I was looking at his bum. Come to think of it, if he had been spanked, it is possible that the spanker wasn’t a woman but another man. From what I have seen online, some gay men are into spanking too. So if he was a gay spanko, it is possible that he would get a kick from showing his spanked bum to other men in the showers. That’s kind of off topic, but I have never forgotten that.
DeleteGH
It sounds like we are outliers on this question. I don’t believe she has ever spanked me to end an argument or even for being “argumentative” Both of us enjoy lively conversations on a variety of topics and both have the dispositions to admit being wrong. She has and does spank disrespect and she has and now does again use preventives for foreclosing on pointless arguments with certain family members. And she does spank tantrums but they are not arguments as such.
ReplyDeleteAlan
Allan, my wife also spanks for tantrums, but the line between having a tantrum and being argumentative is sometimes blurry. If I am frustrated about something and carrying on in a way that annoys her, she will tell me to calm down. Then I might start to argue that my tantrum is justified by circumstances. When I do that, I am at high risk of finding myself bent over the end of the bed with my pants down. GH
DeleteFortunately for me, my tantrums get aimed at inanimate objects or third parties and never at her. Also, she has learned that if she is going to discipline me for throwing a tantrum ( which these days, she usually does), she will wait for me to calm down and become rational again even if it's the next day.
DeleteAlan
Alan, my tantrums are never aimed at my wife either, but as she has “explained” when I am bent over and she has my full attention, my ranting and cursing doesn’t have to be aimed at her to affect her mood.
DeleteGH
"Fortunately for me, my tantrums get aimed at inanimate objects or third parties and never at her." My tantrums tend to start with inanimate objects, but I do tend to take out my frustration on whoever is nearby. It's not something I'm proud of.
DeleteI don't challenge my wife's authority to discipline me for tantrums, especially one that exposed either of us to public embarrassment. But mental health professionals generally believe it is good to get those intense feeling out rather than bottle them up. The trick is to express them in a positive manner and channel their energy to productive purposes.
DeleteThe many punishments she has given me for tantrums have helped me to be more aware of how I am behaving and why as well as motivated to alter that behavior. But it is still a work in progress,
Alan
The challenge for me is that when the tantrums occur, they sort of explode. I honestly don't know whether spanking would help make me think before that happens, or whether the temper hits so fast that I wouldn't be capable of thinking about consequences in advance.
DeleteIf my wife spanks me for my temper, she has learned to use the scolding period as a sort of off-the-cuff therapy in which she helps me to think of what happened and why I reacted to it with what amounts to a child's behavior. Now then, but days later, I do begin to think about why and what I could do instead. don’t think she ever expects to totally eradicate the behavior, but I do have a lot more insight into it, and she has made me admit that despite all the bluster, a tantrum amounts to being afraid, frustrated, and out of control. I am not proud of it but am proud of her for managing it as she has done
DeleteAlan
Anne's approach was similar after a tantrum a couple of months ago. She knew that there had been a somewhat legitimate concern underlying my blow up, but she calmly walked through why my reaction had not been appropriate and had been unfair to her, asking me whether I agreed with each fact as she laid it out. It was incredibly effective, and it basically marched me right along to the conclusion that I did, in fact, deserve a spanking even if my original concern had some validity.
DeleteI have a tantrum probably once a month about something. I had a rough day at work. I have an extremely stressful job and I have co workers who are losers. I hate to put it that way, but unfortunately they just are. Some of them are always bitching and moaning about their spouse, kids, lack of money, or something that doesn’t affect me. Unfortunately,
Deleteyou can’t ignore it. So I came home with a tude and I tried to explain to my wife why I was pissed off. She was busy doing something and I wasn’t getting her undivided attention. So I made my typical smart comment. She shot me a look and told me to cut the pity party. Well I gave a smart ass remark and you could imagine what happened next. We finished dinner and I came upstairs and she just received a new heavy hairbrush and a leather slapper. They were put to use and I was struggling to get through that spanking. They hurt and I’m sitting uncomfortably as usual. Lesson learned and looking back, I was a bit short and should have know better.
T
That scenario could never happen with us. In our house, it would be my wife pressing me for details about my day at work, and me getting increasingly snippy about her undivided attention.
DeleteAlan: “If my wife spanks me for my temper, she has learned to use the scolding period as a sort of off-the-cuff therapy in which she helps me to think of what happened and why I reacted to it with what amounts to a child's behavior.”
DeleteAlan, my wife does a very similar thing. Once I am in the vulnerable spanking position, bent over the end of the bed with a couple of pillows under my hips and my pants around my knees, my wife will give me a drawn out spanking, interspersed with lots of talking. She will give me several spanks, then she will walk around behind me, scolding me and asking questions leading me to the consciousness that my tantrum was childish. The interrogation will be interspersed with more spanks. When she is satisfied that I have calmed down and have understood how childish my tantrum was, she will finish with a final volley, often switching from hairbrush or paddle to the strap, the implement that hurts the most. Unfortunately, being spanked for losing my temper is never a permanent corrective because I don’t have enough control over my temper to avoid future spankings for the same thing.
GH
GH
DeleteDo you consider it a correction as something that either reduces the behavior or eliminates it? Or is it more of a spanking to maintain her authority or just plain retribution for bad behavior ( as we have discussed retribution spankings?
Alan
Dan wrote: “Anne's approach was similar after a tantrum a couple of months ago. She knew that there had been a somewhat legitimate concern underlying my blow-up, but she calmly walked through why my reaction had not been appropriate and had been unfair to her, asking me whether I agreed with each fact as she laid it out. It was incredibly effective, and it basically marched me right along to the conclusion that I did, in fact, deserve a spanking, even if my original concern had some validity.”
DeleteThis sounds very similar to what my wife is now doing, and I think it's beginning to work after many years of her enduring the behavior without finding spanking or any other punishment very effective for very long. One thing that seems important is the “discussion” occurs before the spanking starts.
Alan
Alan, those are good questions. I think of the spanking as a corrective because not only does it reduce the behaviour for a while, but in the moment, when my wife decides enough is enough, it stops the behaviour in its tracks. I suppose that it may also function as a form of retribution for my wife. I have never really thought of it that way, and my wife never talks about her own psychological motivations for spanking me. The fact that she tends to spank on the spur of the moment, and will often let spankings slide if delayed, makes me think that spanking me could be an emotional release for her when my behaviour gets on her nerves and I ignore warnings about that.
DeleteGH
GH,
DeleteIf she is spanking on the spot and it is working for both of you, it is still great advice: “Don’t fix what isn’t broken. I do believe that on-the-spot and consistent spanking is the single best technique for really changing behavior
. But a somewhat structured and drawn-out technique can work for some deeply rooted behavior. I consider my own temper tantrums to be deep-rooted (I am making no judgment about anyone else)—and so her talk first and spank later approach to tantrums is making some progress after years of little progress. The last time she spanked me for a quasi-public tantrum, the lecture- scolding, interrogation talk came on a Friday night, but I wasn’t spanked for it until the following Sunday.
Alan
"One thing that seems important is the “discussion” occurs before the spanking starts." Same here. It seems to be far more effective to separate it from the punishment, giving me time to process the lecture and anticipate what is going to happen.
DeleteThis is quite new to us so I don’t really have established patterns to report. But what I think our dynamic has now turned into is one where any disrespectfulness in my tone puts me at risk of getting punished. In principle we ought to be able to argue about things without this being an issue, but in practice that sort of cordial disagreement isn’t really what either of us mean when we talk about ‘having an argument’. The sort of argument Emma has spanked me for a couple of times now is the type that becomes emotionally heated - a fight, I suppose.
ReplyDeleteWhen we were first living together in our early twenties we used to get into fights all the time. For a while it seemed like we couldn’t go out drinking together (our main leisure activity back then!) without ending up furious with each other. Over the years we’ve clearly mellowed, because it’s been a rare occurrence for years now. But we haven’t eradicated it entirely. Ot at least, we hadn’t before the recent shift in our dynamic. It may be that such arguments are now a thing of the past.
I think what’s changed un the last month is that I’m expected to be patient. It’s my duty to control my temper. Lashing out irritably at Emma when I get frustrated with her is (I think rightly) punishable. I’m not sure whether we’re still going to end up getting into fights now that this is the case, because ‘arguments’ of this sort tended to erupt through a feedback loop of irritation. She’d behave in a way that I found annoying, I’d express my irritation by saying something, she’d react negatively, I’d feel hurt and lash out, etc. It’d quickly end up very hot tempered on both sides.
The recent shift in our dynamic was probably triggered by the couple of times Emma did punish me to end the cycle of viciousness. Each time, we’d reached a sort of pause - an oasis of calm - and she tentatively suggested that I needed a good spanking. It turned out I wasn’t too angry to submit, and I didn’t regret it. The substance of the disagreement was nothing at all - I can’t remember what we were arguing about in either case. It was just some small thing that triggered a destructive spiral. Like Dan’s getting annoyed by the Anne’s meandering way of making a point, I suppose. Getting spanked brought it all to an end very effectively. The air was cleared. We were friends again afterwards.
Basically, I thought it was right and fair. I didn’t resent it, anyway. There was no doubt I’d spoken disrespectfully to her, and there was a very good chance that I’d triggered the whole thing by being unable to keep a lid on my own impatience. So I suppose I don’t have any problem with being punished for arguments, when ‘argument’ means this sort of hot-tempered fight. I’m happy with the idea that Emma will do the same again. In fact, I was so happy about it that I decided to ask whether she’d like to go more fully towards FLR in the wake of these experiences, an offer she grasped with both hands!
As for fights, I suppose it’s possible we just won’t get that far anymore. If she calls me up on, and punishes me for, being irritable and impatient with her, perhaps this sort of full-blown fight just won’t get started. But who knows. It’s only been a month so far, and a relatively low stress period. We’ll have to see.
BenB
The cycle of argument you outlined is very familiar and as someone I suspect has 25-30 years on you I can tell you the quicker you stop the better for both. Therefore I congratulate you both on finding a mechanism to break the cycle and clear the air.
Delete"When we were first living together in our early twenties we used to get into fights all the time. For a while it seemed like we couldn’t go out drinking together (our main leisure activity back then!) without ending up furious with each other. Over the years we’ve clearly mellowed, because it’s been a rare occurrence for years now. But we haven’t eradicated it entirely."
DeleteThat describes us almost perfectly.
Anne hasn't spanked me often for arguing, but things have been moving in a direction similar to what you describe in your third paragraph. There was an incident a few months ago, when I got angry about something that had been festering, and I finally went off. She waited until the next day, then very calmly interrogated me about the fact that I had let something fester without bringing it to her attention earlier, so she had not had any opportunity to address it. She basically asked whether I agreed with her description of how things had unfolded, and I couldn't deny it. She then said that since we were in agreement about the behavior, I was going to be spanked for it. Honestly, it was a masterful performance on her part.
Yesterday I was driving with my G/F and entered an intersection on a yellow light, which turned red before I got through the turn. She expressed her displeasure, and I began to argue with her. She asked me if I was questioning her authority, and I replied with a terse "no" Her asking me that stopped me wanting to defend myself, and I immediately realized I should have replied with a respectful "no, ma'am." Like others have stated, the issue that should be resolved with a spanking isn't always what a couple is discussing, it is more the tone of the discussion. Later we talked about it and I let her know that I felt a disciplinary spanking was in order for my disrespectful tone.
ReplyDeleteTone is definitely one of the issues with my arguing. And, it's not intentional or even something I really detect. I am not a large guy, but I have a deep voice and tend to talk emphatically. People on my old team used to say I intimidated them, and it sometimes honestly hurt to hear that, because I didn't *mean* to lead by intimidating anyone. It was something they were taking away from the combination of my tone and demeanor but it wasn't something I ever wanted to convey.
DeleteWe have often argued and always have, normally about trivia. I recover quickly, my wife less so - sometimes she will be in a mood for a couple of days before we resolve the issue. In recent years her recovery has been aided by spanking me but she will normally wait until she is fully calm. Our house rule is that if we argue, I get a spanking on the basis that there is no right or wrong in these situations, just a propensity to 'partake'. And I need to control my tendency to be 'right' and opinionated enough to argue. And if I choose not to partake in an argument, it will not take place.
ReplyDeleteShe says spanking me help to get rid of her frustration that I am pig headed, stubborn and thoughtless! I have been explaining to her recently that timing is everything and that waiting for a day or two before punishment usually means that I have completely moved on from the original issue. What we are working on now is consistency, speed of (her) reaction, avoiding any disputes and her verbally highlighting when I am close to a behavioral boundary. This is definitely working for both of us as is a more frequent and more 'casual' spanking regime. We discuss any previous days issues first thing in the morning and she will punish at that point. As we have guests currently that means a session with the synthetic cane, my least 'favorite' implement. We have not had an argument for some time now as she seems to have learned to channel any such feeling into either a warning or a spanking. However there have been more than the usual amount of spankings...
The more 'casual' approach means that for her a spanking is less of an 'event' and more of a minor correction. She seems more comfortable initiating a spanking which is probably why it is happening more frequently.
Am I learning to modify the offensive behavior as a result? I guess that yes, my awareness of the problematic attitudes and behaviors is increased, we are not letting so much tension build up and we are closer / more content so far since the change. As ever it is a 'work in progress' however we both seem to feel it is an improved approach. TB
"The more 'casual' approach means that for her a spanking is less of an 'event' and more of a minor correction. She seems more comfortable initiating a spanking which is probably why it is happening more frequently." We've gone a bit in that direction too over the last year or so. For many years, spankings were an "event," and I think that did make her less likely to order one.
ReplyDeleteWe have seen a similar trend over the past few years. At first every disciplinary session was an event for us, with detailed lectures followed by long spankings. I've gotten three of those this year, but also a few more casual punishments. The latter are administered with minimal scolding and no more than a dozen smacks with her spatula.
ReplyDeleteAs you might assume, these are for minor transgressions and Beth likes the idea that they serve as quick reminders, administered practically on the spot. They are almost always in the kitchen, mostly because that is where the implement is kept, but it's also my wife's preference. I'll admit it's not much of a punishment, but for that reason, she rarely gets much resistance from me.
Kevin
Thanks, Kevin. Ours haven't gotten quite that casual, but I can definitely see the role something like that could play.
DeleteWhere the long lectures are concerned, it's one of those things that I once thought might be important but I now think is more or less worthless. At least from my perspective. Maybe it helps her get things off her chest.