A man is as good as he has to be, and a woman is as bad as she dares. ~ Elbert Hubbard
Hello all. Welcome back to The Disciplinary Couple’s Club. Our weekly on-line gathering of men and women who are in, or would like to be in, a Domestic Discipline relationship.
I hope you all had a great week. Mine was exhilarating, frustrating, exciting, exhausting -- pretty much everything you want from an adventurous vacation. I came back with a slight injury and a sunburn, but otherwise no worse for the wear.
I know many of you tried to keep the comments going but many were diverted to spam. I’m sorry about that. Unfortunately, most of the days I was out adventuring I was either off-grid or otherwise occupied. Although I did have my phone with me, I think it is literally the first time in a couple of decades that I haven’t ventured onto a desktop computer, laptop or tablet for an entire week.
A couple of weeks ago, K and Alan had a series of exchanges focusing on post-orgasm spankings, also sometimes referred to as “milking.” Here is a slightly condensed version of their comments:
K: J always has me climax before (rare) punishments and sometimes, but not always, before (more common) discipline/correction spankings (depending on how severe she wants to make the experience).
I absolutely hate it; It takes me completely out of the frame of mind where it's exciting and sexy, and the contrast between the "afterglow" feeling and the pain of the spanking is very stark. It's, I must admit, a very effective for her to make the spanking a real disciplinary event that I would NOT sign up for voluntarily.
But, interestingly, my MEMORY of those spankings are much more complex. I remember that my wife spanked me in a no-nonsense, definitely punitive way, and I find that to be a very erotic thing. So while it's not sexual in the moment at all, it reinforces something I find very erotic and and exciting.
I'm not RECOMMENDING it, but it does work for us in a way that's hard to explain.
Does that make sense?
I should also add: J isn't trying to make me miserable, quite the contrary, we want to make each other happy. But she feels that if she's going to discipline/punish me for something, it needs to be "real" and not something that I get pleasure or mixed signals from. And I have to agree, even if I hate it when she carries it out.
Alan: K WRITES: “But she feels that if she's going to discipline/punish me for something, it needs to be "real" and not something that I get pleasure or mixed signals from.”
It is hard to disagree with her feeling about the “realness” of punishment. Making a man “cum” before punishment leaves no doubt that it is real. But I look at post orgasm spankings as the “nuclear option” to be used when all else fails, but not every time. I have experienced post orgasm punishment a handful of times and I do know how powerful they can be.
But for us, my wife can make a punishment spanking very real without making me cum before while holding the post orgasm out as an implicit threat if she feels it is needed.
I am not criticizing your wife or any other couples who use post-orgasm spankings routinely. And apparently some couples do use them regularly. Every couple has to learn what works for them, and I have heard the argument that spanking a male after orgasm often produces a shorter spanking and leaves less damage to the bum despite the pain. So it is actually more “merciful.”
Those arguments may well be correct and I have been convinced that administering post-orgasm must be in a disciplinary wife’s arsenal. But I do think it’s better to use it sparingly because removing the erotic charge (for us anyway) reduces that strong emotional bonding post-spanking can that makes DD so powerful
BTW, the last time I addressed this topic a female commenter said I was ‘nuts” if I thought I should be immune to spanking if I had cum. I am not saying that at all. I am just saying that a very real spanking can be administered to a guy without making him cum before. And doing that keeps the threat of a post orgasm spanking a line he doesn’t want to cross.
Alan (responding to my comment that we have not done post-orgasm spankings and I kind of hope it stays that way): I agree with your sentiments with the caveat that if wife or girlfriend determines she wants it available, then it becomes a problem to make it a hard limit and still maintain a full D\D or FLR relationship. I don't believe it is necessary but both women I have had a disciplinary relationship have bristled at the notion their authority was limited as far as using it. I think you have been fortunate that Anne hasn't used it and frankly I think I have been lucky that both women in my life used it very infrequently and mainly to make a point. However as K and several others report it MAY not be uncommon in female led DD relationships.
Personally I would like to see a fuller discussion of the practice: how many use it, how often, with what results, for what issues etc.
So, let’s give Alan that fuller discussion. It’s not a discussion I can contribute much to, at least not based on any actual experience. It is an activity we have not engaged in (yet), and I am pretty glad about that. I do recognize, however, that this might be one of those things where the rubber really meets the road regarding behavior correction. I have no doubt that being completely relieved of the erotic or sexual tension and energy that may be bound up in the desire for DD leaves only pure punishment, and I can see it being option for very serious offenses if “lighter” forms of punishment haven’t worked.
Also, it's just the nature of an orgasm to leave you feeling lazy and content -- about the last thing you would want after that is a long, hard spanking. Of course, that is kind of the whole point of doing it that way. I sometimes wonder whether removing all that energy would make it easier for me to get to real tears, but I kind of doubt it. The two don’t seem connected, but I could be wrong.
So, please let us know what your experiences have been, if any, with post-orgasm spankings.
Hi Dan. What a great topic. So great in fact it has inspired to blog about this on my blog as well. Full credit given to you of course.
ReplyDeletePost orgasm spankings are indeed dreadful. Just dreadful. Thankfully Mistress K. has only felt like she needed to resort to using it on only 3 occasions, mostly early on as I was continuing to evolve into my role as her submissive husband.
Each of the three were absolutely memorable. None of them were enjoyable! They were used when Mistress was especially angry with my behavior. Like really pissed! There is nothing worse than being in the middle of a "discussion" where we don't agree, and have Mistress put an immediate end to the discussion only to say ... "That's enough. Get the paddle. Get naked. Masturbate to full orgasm quickly and get on the bed, or get against the wall.
This comment rings true in our relationship; "But I look at post orgasm spankings as the “nuclear option” to be used when all else fails, but not every time. I have experienced post orgasm punishment a handful of times and I do know how powerful they can be."
I couldn't agree more. This also rings true in our relationship; "But for us, my wife can make a punishment spanking very real without making me cum before while holding the post orgasm out as an implicit threat if she feels it is needed."
Hi Sub Hub, I would say this is pretty much exactly how I feel about the whole post-orgasm thing. It is perhaps useful to make a very strong point, but to me seems very non-ideal for regular use. I think it is fine for a wife to use it, but I have serious problems with anyone claiming that post-orgasm spankings are the only way for a punishment to be real.
Delete-ZM
Completely agree. If a Mistress used post-orgasm as the only way to punish, or even using it too much, I think it would be detrimental overall and would lose the ability to have that "high-impact" effect when necessary.
DeleteJust for the sake of the discussion, I am copying the text relating to this subject from two of my posts from last week - just in case we have any folks who missed last week.
ReplyDelete--------------
(From last week's post on this topic)
While a forced climax prior to spanking is a fairly common plot element in F/M spanking fiction, I recall being somewhat surprised that the practice was not unusual among our group here when the topic was discussed here a couple years back. The practice would not appeal to either of us, but one can obviously see how it would certainly increase the effectiveness of a true punishment spanking.
------------------
(2nd post - follow up to Alan's reply to the above post)
Alan wrote: >I find it unlikely it would appeal to any male, particularly one who has experienced it.<
I would say that it does have a "fantasy appeal" for some men - just based on what I've read on forums over the years. However, I am absolutely certain the appeal of that fantasy would would immediately vanish at the moment of ejaculation. And, as you note, after one such spanking, the "fantasy appeal" would likely be greatly diminished. Although my wife has never intentionally spanked me after a "forced climax", very early on in the DWC lifestyle (maybe a couple of months), she did paddle me shortly after we had sex (with 10 minutes or so for a legitimate reason) It was truly an absolutely miserable experience - just sting and pain with no sense of the connection that I (and I suspect most spanked husbands) usually experience while being spanked (in spite of the very real pain).
At the time she was not aware of the effect that the male climax would have on "spanking receptivity". Later, we discussed the issue, and while she would still spank me shortly after sex if she found it necessary, she has said she would not order a forced climax before a spanking - as she finds it too "femdom-ish" (she mostly prefers old fashioned "domestic discipline" - no chastity devices, no feminization. Although she does employ anal discipline on occasion - pegging, plugs, large enemas - same area, I suppose).
Alan also wrote: >Back to my former GF’s argument, a guy just can’t say to a woman that her power to discipline is unlimited and then try to limit her in that way. (Argue against yes, deny no)<
Ideally, that would be true for a truly disciplinary relationship. However, in reality, we all have out contracts - implicit or explicit - and our limits. Other than in fantasy, very few men would consent to their wife spanking them in the middle of the living room while all their friends and family were over (just to use a silly extreme example). But we all strive - to varying degrees - to maintain the illusion of non-consent (or "consensual non-consent"). So, ultimately, it simply comes down to what a couple has agreed on up front to maintain the illusion of non-consent (a topic that has been extensively discussed here and on many other forums, F/M or otherwise). That said, if a disciplinary wife insisted on having the authority to order a forced climax prior to spanking - and the man (as is usually the case) has asked for the disciplinary arrangement - then I would agree that he should just accept her authority on the issue - and then hope it is seldom used.
--al
"It was truly an absolutely miserable experience - just sting and pain with no sense of the connection that I (and I suspect most spanked husbands) usually experience while being spanked (in spite of the very real pain)." I haven't experienced it, though this is how I assumed it would be.
Delete"Back to my former GF’s argument, a guy just can’t say to a woman that her power to discipline is unlimited and then try to limit her in that way. (Argue against yes, deny no)
Ideally, that would be true for a truly disciplinary relationship. However, in reality, we all have out contracts - implicit or explicit - and our limits."
That's true, though I supposed some men can push that illusion so far that the daylight between between the illusion and reality is pretty narrow.
Hi Al,
DeleteGreat comments!
"...she has said she would not order a forced climax before a spanking - as she finds it too 'femdom-ish' (she mostly prefers old fashioned 'domestic discipline' - no chastity devices, no feminization. Although she does employ anal discipline on occasion - pegging, plugs, large enemas - same area, I suppose)."
So very interesting that she sees chastity devices, feminization, and forced climax as feeling too much like femdom, yet she is willing to use pegging, plugs, and enemas! To me, all those seem more similar than different, but I am sure she has a reason she feels that way. Interestingly enough, we talk little about pegging, plugs, and enemas here, but from my reading over the years in different places, I think they are actually used quite widely in DD circles, and at least enemas (and laxatives) were pretty much used as childhood punishments, whether parents wanted to admit it or not. It was the same idea as mouth soaping, just a different area that apparently needed to be cleansed of naughtiness!
-ZM
Pegging in particular does feel to me like Femdom, but everyone draws their lines in different places.
Delete“Pegging in particular does feel to me like Femdom, but everyone draws their lines in different places.”
DeleteIt is interesting how we all seem to draw these more or less arbitrary lines around some practices and not others. I do the same thing although I don’t think of pegging as femdom but show me a lot of leather, maybe a dungeon setting, a bull whip or two and that’s femdom. To each his own
Something closely related is my sense (mostly from the blogs but some personal experience) that pegging is becoming more popular and something at least some women enjoy as much or more than spanking.
This is probably a small minority of women but sales of “toys” like the strap- on and dildos must be pretty brisk, It would be interesting to know how if at all this fits into female led DD.
Almost by definition strap on play involves a dominant women, or at least a woman in a very dominant role. But not necessarily a DD role
Alan
Yes, our various nuanced views on what lies in the realm of femdom - and what does not - is quite interesting.
DeleteWhile I had become somewhat familiar with femdom during my exploration of F/M spanking on the Net before Susan and I adopted the DWC lifestyle, Susan had only the vaguest knowledge of femdom at the time of my first spanking. This soon changed, however, as she also began to encounter femdom on the Net as she began her own exploration of F/M spanking on the Net.
This led to some joint exploration - I particularly recall us reading quite a bit on the Elise Sutton Female Superiority site as there were lots of personal experiences of various practices posted by both men and women. As well as discussion about whether we should include any of these practices in our disciplinary arrangement.
I had a hard limit on chastity devices - absolutely no appeal to me at all. And, fortunately they did not appeal to Susan either - she enjoys penetrative sex way too much to be interested in intentionally withholding sex through forced abstinence. I also had a hard limit on restraint - as I have almost phobic concerns about being being tied up or restrained (not sure why - I don't recall any experiences as a child. Perhaps another lifetime) - and that did not bother Susan either - as she believes that the husband should willingly remain in position during the spanking out of respect for his wife's authority.
But I was open minded about whatever else she might want to try - although not necessarily excited about it. She was particularly fascinated by the idea of anal penetration - presumably because it played into the same sense of power that she enjoys whiles spanking me (by her own admission). And indeed, strap-ons, butt plugs, and enema bags found their way into the toy box - and still get used on occasion. She did put me in panties after a spanking a few times early on - but that faded out pretty quickly - really didn't resonate with either of us.
I have also noticed that strap-ons seem to have started to work their way into mainstream public awareness a bit more in recent years.
--al
Chastity devices don't do anything for me either. I did try one once, but all it did was reinforce that I had no interest in exploring that further. Regarding anal play, I do have an interest, but really only in the context of being disciplined or dominated -- I think it would need to be part of a power exchange for me to get anything out of it. Which, come to think of it, is how I feel about spanking.
DeleteDan wrote: > think it would need to be part of a power exchange for me to get anything out of it. Which, come to think of it, is how I feel about spanking.<
DeleteExactly the case with us in regard to her occasional use of anal discipline. It's all about power exchange - the same dynamic as spanking - just in a different form. Traditional male dominance has so long been associated with sexual penetration, that turning the tables on the male is an obvious and effective power exchange tool. As a disciplinary tool, it may not be as physically painful as a hard paddling, but getting soundly pegged is certainly very powerful psychologically (and it is almost always accompanied by a sound spanking, usually with whacks before and after). --al
I could see it being incredibly empowering for the woman
DeleteI do have one thought to add from what I wrote in last week's comments. I included in my comment last week that the one time I did get spanked shortly after an orgasm (but not a "forced climax") - that not only did the spanking did seem more painful, it also lacked a "sense of connection" that normally exists during a spanking. Although disciplinary spankings are genuinely painful, they are also a bonding experience. I believe that two other husbands mentioned the same observation in their comments as well last week (that the "connection" was missing during a post-orgasm spanking).
ReplyDeleteI have noted similar comments over the years in other forums as well - that spanking is a connecting and bonding experience - and that this connection seems to be missing in post-orgasm spankings. As for the bonding and connection that occurs during a spanking, I have seen that reflected in a number of spanking drawings over the years in which the wife is consoling or hugging the husband after his bottom has been well blistered (these drawings always display the husband's well reddened bottom, and usually tears in his eyes as well). --al
Thanks, al. I wonder whether the consoling or desire to be consoled would be different, or non-existent, in the post-orgasm spanking situation?
DeleteIt's so different for females. We don't have that extreme emotional letdown after orgasm, so we don't lose connection as you describe. Sometimes there is a bit of a letdown, but if I am feeling multiorgasmic my feelings are heightened with no letdown at all.
ReplyDeleteHowever, like you guys, orgasm does create increased sensitivity in the pubic region, including my rear. It might be that a spanking would be more painful. I would like to try it!
Cynthia Ellen
I don't know whether what I experience is an "emotional letdown," but I definitely have zero sexual desire or energy for a substantial period of time after an orgasm.
DeleteDan’s second graphic reminds me of the first time I experienced a spanking after cumming and it was with my former G.F., done as a kind of one off to demonstrate to her satisfaction she had the authority to do it and I would cooperate with her,
ReplyDeleteNeither one of us really had any idea what to expect although I very well knew what happened to my spanking libido after climaxing and she was very aware I had tried to avoid a situation where a spanking was likely to happen shortly after orgasm. So, we both “knew” we were venturing out onto a ledge
Looking back on it I don’t know why she just didn’t do it after intercourse which is the way many seem to discover the male reaction to being spanked after orgasm. She probably was afraid I would disobey her and that would set up a confrontation she didn’t want.
In any event she ended taking me into her bedroom, taking my pants down as if she was going to spank me for something and then pulling out her KY and ordering me to masturbate in front of her, all the time strategically placing her hairbrush a few feet away to turn me on about it.
But even with that help I couldn’t come -- probably because I couldn’t stop thinking about what was going to happen after I did come and maybe some embarrassment about masturbating in front of her.
She offered to help with her hand but even that didn’t make me cum as fast as she expected, so she grabbed the KY and used just a part of her hand inserting a finger into my bum. That’s when I did cum, hard and fast in an orgasm I still remember today,
But what I remember best is the feeling of going from 0 to 60 in seconds when she brought me off after so long trying –and then going from 60 to 0 even faster when she immediately pulled me over her lap and started the spanking.
This was what we had planned and what I had known was going to happen. But I was in no way ready for it or my reaction to it. It really was like the thrill of racing faster and faster until you can’t go faster –and then suddenly crashing into a steel wall.
I remember asking her sometime later if it was what she expected. Her response was something like she was glad we had done it but hoped she would not have to do it again -- and she never did do it again.
Alan
"Dan’s second graphic reminds me of the first time I experienced a spanking after cumming and it was with my former G.F., done as a kind of one off to demonstrate to her satisfaction she had the authority to do it and I would cooperate with her." It's interesting how your comment and al's dovetail, with him emphasizing the limits of the illusion of consent, while your girlfriend apparently needed to demonstrate to herself that her authority was not, in fact, illusory.
DeleteI remember how much she pounded that into me: “there are no limits on my authority” (to discipline ) Looking back on it now in the context of –al’s comment on the limits of the illusion of consent - I guess she was either unsure or insecure about the real scope of her authority and felt the need to test that. I know it made for an exciting dynamic although she talked about her authority more than she used it
DeleteAlan
Honestly, while I'm sure it wasn't pleasant for you, particularly on that occasion, I think there is something kind of admirable and wise to your GF's approach. I suspect that every disciplinary wife or GF starts out insecure about their authority. Most of them express that through hesitancy and inconsistency. Yours, on the other hand, put that authority to the test openly.
DeleteDev has a strict rule. There is no sex for 24 hours after a disciplinary spanking is given. JR
ReplyDeleteThanks, JR. More often than not, we do have sex after a spanking. For me, it's related to the connection Al talks about. I feel way more connected after a hard spanking.
DeleteWe all know that there is a sexual component to DD, at least the motivation to get us to ask for it. I strongly disagree that sex of any kind is appropriate before punishment. Sex is supreme pleasure. The fact that the spanking is no longer an appetizer for the sexual main course is no reason to get off prior to punishment. My spankings are thoroughly unpleasant without needing to get me off. I don't want sex after I'm spanked. None is offered.
ReplyDeleteEven though sex is why we wanted DD, it doesn't mean that it has to be a component of punishment.
"I don't want sex after I'm spanked. None is offered." Our norm is mostly the opposite of this.
DeleteWe seldom if ever make love right after a spanking, but that is because they often happen in the daytime or evening. When we go to bed, I think there is basically no difference. Most every night we make love, and if there was a spanking that day, it doesn't seem to increase or decrease the likelihood of lovemaking.
Delete-ZM
Greetings. I'd love to reply, as I have some direct experience. However, my post was deemed to long, so I'll just thank Dan for raising the topic again.
ReplyDeleteBest to All. Graham
Hi Graham,
DeleteGoogle doesn't make it easy do they? If you have direct experience with the topic, please post it. A number of posters have broken up longer comments into multiple posts labeled as such. That does work.
Alan
Yes, just to echo Alan's comment, we would certainly appreciate your perspective as well. In addition to sometimes having to break up comments into sections, I sometimes will compose a longer post or comment on Word first, and then copy and paste the text into the sections, to prevent losing what I have composed ( a lesson learned from frustrating experience). --al
DeleteHi al,
Delete"I sometimes will compose a longer post or comment on Word first, and then copy and paste the text into the sections, to prevent losing what I have composed ( a lesson learned from frustrating experience)." I do that too most of the time, because again and again I have been burned by writing something long only to have it disappear to nowhere. After that happens, I am religious about using word to compose comments for a while, until I start to get lax and then inevitably losing things happens again and the whole cycle re-starts!
-ZM
We have always felt that spanking comes in a number of distinct levels : there’s play - which can still be hard but will come with a good warm up and perhaps be more gently paced with recovery times, then there’s punishment, and somewhere in between them is what we call discipline. Generally punishment is for something more serious or breaking an agreed rule, it’s planned ahead of time and involves being restrained over the bench. Discipline is more ad-hoc and just bent over or OTK. A forced climax beforehand has always been a basic part of a punishment for us and is occasionally used before discipline. I don’t really share the level of dislike of this practice that many other commenters exhibit. It’s always seemed to me that if I’ve done something bad enough to deserve a punishment, this is a reasonable preliminary. In fact, just the fact of the forced climax itself is such a totally dominated act that it pretty much becomes part of the punishment in its own right. There seems to be more than the usual amount of sex-related commentary this week and I agree that there is a strong relationship between DD, sex and D/s. I would however like to pick up on one point that al made. We have played in the D/s arena even longer than in DD. She is Domme and I am switch - although always sub when playing with her. We dabbled very early in our relationship with just a little bit of feminization - which al mentioned in his list of activities - but came to the conclusion that it was an area that didn’t seem to make any sense to us. For a dominant women to use feminization on a submissive man seemed to us fundamentally to assume that women were beneath men and that the purpose of feminization was to reduce the man’s status and make him more submissive. In any FL relationship, this is clearly ridiculous so it’s an area that we’ve stayed away from for many years TG.
ReplyDeleteHi TG.
DeleteI wanted to comment on your post because I agree with you and because few seem to post on this issue. The whole “feminization” area is complicated and I won’t over generalize about it. It very well might be appropriate and effective in some relationships and a little gender bending is probably good for all relationships. But the notion that a male should be humiliated by dressing or acting like a woman is demeaning to women. Does a male humiliate a female by making her dress like a male? I don’t think so.
One doesn’t need to be an absolutist about this and there are situations where a male can be humbled by being put into intimate feminine apparel, especially panties as part of discipline. But to me this is more about reinforcing who “wears the pants in the relationship” and not about feminizing a male. Like you I don’t believe a female led relationship requires a male to become less male
Alan
"It’s always seemed to me that if I’ve done something bad enough to deserve a punishment, this is a reasonable preliminary. In fact, just the fact of the forced climax itself is such a totally dominated act that it pretty much becomes part of the punishment in its own right."
DeleteThis makes a lot of sense to me.
As Alan said, feminization is complicated. I personally don't presume to know the motivations behind it for the couples who practice it, but I doubt many perceive it as reflecting some inherent demeaning of women for a man to adopt women's clothing. Rather, men are socialized to be "manly" and anything that tempers that self-image probably is humbling. I see it as pushing him out of the manly comfort zone without reflecting on the woman one way or another. I also suspect that many men are interested in it because it does have a "gender bending" aspect.
DeleteAnything involving gender is always complicated because we are all wired differently. I think we all agree - especially us devotees of female led DD or FLR - that women are not “inferior or subservient” to men and that women do not and should not have lower status in the relationship.
DeleteHowever, I wholeheartedly agree with Dan: “I see it as pushing him out of the manly comfort zone without reflecting on the woman one way or another.” I think if you view feminization as having something to do with the woman involved, or to women as a whole, it is kind of missing the point.
The male ego is a strange thing, full of complexities and contradictions. We men frequently have excessive ego, and the felt need for our wives or significant others to keep our excessive egos in check is often a prime motivation for wanting DD/FLR. The male ego is all at once very strong (to the point of excess), and also incredibly fragile. Most men are very sensitive to any attack on our masculinity.
Maybe it is because we don’t have such dramatic changes to our bodies during puberty as young women do? Females tend to (but not universally) grow noticable breasts, begin to menstruate, and develop more feminine bodies with softer curves in their hips, etc. Somehow, this leads to clear recognition by themselves and by the world that this girl became a woman.
Men grow body hair, and generally our bodies generally become more muscular, but the physical line delineating boys and men is nowhere near as clear as it is for females. For this reason, many cultures throughout history have had formal rites of passage mostly for males.
In the end, a boy (or male of ANY age) feels like a man only when other men recognize him as a such, and a girl starts to feel like a woman when other women recognize her as a woman. I think this need for approval from our like-gender peers is why most of us are appalled at the thought of another male knowing we are spanked by our wives, though perhaps even excited at the idea of one of our wives’ friends knowing or witnessing.
Alan said: “Does a male humiliate a female by making her dress like a male? I don’t think so.” I agree, because it simply isn’t humiliating for her. If other women see a female dressed as a man, most of them won’t think of her as less of a woman. The same is not the case for guys. The fact is, if other men see a guy dressed as a female, a good share of them WILL laugh at him and many of them WILL think of him as less of a man. Should they? Probably not. Will they? Yep…
Anyway, for me, it is humiliating just because it is, and that humiliation really works, and can be used as a powerful tool by a wife who chooses, though obviously you don’t have to become less male to be in a DD relationship.
This reminded me of something that Miss Cecilia wrote a few months ago (from “Others Knowing - Meeting 398”).
“I prefer to see it as a tool for discipline. I'm turning his maleness against him. I'm also using stereotypes, invented by his gender, to control him. I heard it's men who invented most of those pretty underthings and other underthings for women like bras. Now he can learn how it feels to not only wear those things, but spend all that time getting dressed up in them.
I've seen it works. He's much more submissive when he's dressed. He doesn't argue, he pleads and begs.
When it's time for discipline, I'm certainly not the one who's ‘subservient.’ After all, who's holding the spanking paddle or the tawse? Who's giving the orders? It's NOT him. If maid service is part of his penalty, he's the one in a maid dress waiting on me (or the other ladies, if there are witnesses), not the other way around.
Besides, I like him dressed up like that. Since I'm in charge, what I like is important.”
I like her perspective,
ZM
ZM and Dan,
DeleteThe perspectives expressed by both Dan and ZM on feminizing the male as part of discipline or punishment are both interesting and provocative –as is the perspective attributed to Miss Cecelia. There is little doubt that many men respond to “being feminized” –and probably nearly all men in female led relationships respond to some of it (For example, being put into panties definitely has a disciplinary effect on me, but none of the rest of it works for me and actually might be a hard limit for me) But is feminizing a male just using maleness norms on him to control or humiliate him. Perhaps it is, but exposing a male to ridicule for wearing garments women wear routinely still seems like implicit denigration of femininity.
But ZM’s allusion to male aversion to another male knowing he is spanked does make a very strong argument about the importance of the male ego and self-image vis-Ã -vis other males – and certainly feminizing a male is in that same category. I can deal with my wife’s sister knowing I am spanked but am still not comfortable with my brother in law knowing ( which he must) and would resist strongly being spanked in his presence. (Or him knowing that sometimes my wife orders me to wear panties) I am very committed to female led DD but I am not sure I would not defy my wife if she decided to spank me in front of him (or reveal to him she has made me wear panties)
But here’s the apparent paradox: I think being spanked in the presence of another male also being spanked would not have the same effect and probably being spanked in front of another male I knew to be under DD probably would not be that embarrassing. Male self-image, male ego and male competitiveness seems to me the likely explanation for these contradictory feelings.
I am placed in a very inferior position if my wife spanked me in front of another guy who isn’t spanked and who probably would never accept a spanking; on the other hand all of that goes away if the other guy is also being spanked or is also subject to being spanked.
And to extend the argument: Miss Cecilia apparently thoroughly feminizes her husband because she knows it embarrasses him -- and she also as I remember-- regularly uses a female witness when she disciplines him. But I don’t remember her ever reporting a male witness –and I wonder what his reaction or response to that would be. I suspect it would not be positive.
I think I have asked more questions than I have answered. But this seems an area deserving of further dialogue
Alan
"I am placed in a very inferior position if my wife spanked me in front of another guy who isn’t spanked and who probably would never accept a spanking; on the other hand all of that goes away if the other guy is also being spanked or is also subject to being spanked."
DeleteI think this distinction probably would prevail for many, many men. Though, I'm not sure I would find the latter "preferable" to the former. The thought of being spanked with another DD male has never done much for me. It seems more Femdom-ish or like a straight up sex scene. Being spanked in front of (or by) a man who is not himself subject to DD pushes my buttons around authority, consensual non-consent, etc. I'm not big into humiliation, but a certain amount of humbling is definitely part of the attraction of DD to me. I don't think I would feel *any* humiliation or humbling from being spanked with another DD "bottom"; hence, it wouldn't do much for me in terms of the kind of embarrassment or power exchange attracts me to DD in the first place.
I understand this and fully agree as far as any erotic elements are involved, but there are also non-erotic impulses that also matter not unlike things that motivated couples to interact with the original DWC. Personally I would be interested in the bonding or just plain sharing of experiences and friendship that could come from interaction with another male whose experiences are similar.
DeleteTheir differing thoughts, experiences, attitudes and arrangements would be compelling. We all probably have close male close friends who we would like to be open with about this part of our life but normally we can’t – or we do as I have tried – it is less than successful because they simply don’t understand. But a male in a female led DD relationship is going to relate to much of you experience and views, things that simply can’t be shared with a male not in a female led Dd relationship.
Alan
"Personally I would be interested in the bonding or just plain sharing of experiences and friendship that could come from interaction with another male whose experiences are similar."
DeleteI agree. I've experienced something similar in a small way, engaging with a female who is a "bottom" and used to maintain a blog describing her M/f dynamic. Nowadays, virtually 100% of our interaction is about non-DD topics, but it was our shared DD interest that formed the initial relationship.
Honestly, I don't feel much compulsion to tell male friends about my dynamic, with the exception of one guy who I believe could actually profit from it. Unfortunately, the personality factors that make me think he is someone who could profit from it are the attributes that make me think he wouldn't be open to it. Of course, maybe he thinks the same about me. :-)
Hi Alan, amazing comment, just packed with insight. There is so much to explore in this.
Delete"...exposing a male to ridicule for wearing garments women wear routinely still seems like implicit denigration of femininity." - I agree that on the surface, it would seem that way, but somehow to me it just doesn't feel like it is. I have no idea why? This whole thing seems like a huge paradox which I really don't fully understand. I just know that to me, any sort of feminization is very humiliating, and I also know that I do not look down on females in ANY way. Maybe it is because men are under so much pressure to be manly (more than females are under pressure to be female)? Perhaps it is because when a guy is wearing some feminine clothing item, he looks more like less of a man than he looks feminine (unless the transformation is complete and flawlessly executed)? Maybe when women look at each other, they value each other more on other traits than their femininity, where perhaps men gauge other men based on how "manly" they are? I really have no idea? All I do know is that I feel much less manly (and yes, embarrassed or even humiliated) when I am forced to wear anything even the least bit feminine.
Regarding being spanked in front of a male witness (or having them aware of the DD relationship) I agree fully. It would be much less embarrassing if they too were a spanked husband. In fact, as Dan said, I think it wouldn't do much for me at all. This of course makes my fertile imagination wonder how it would be if I was spanked in front of a spanked female (I guess by either a male or a female spanker)....?!?
I also don't remember if Miss Cecilia ever mentioned threatening a male witness, or if that was Danielle, or maybe both. I do remember someone said they threatened before and it seems a pretty hard limit for their husband. I honestly don't know how I would feel if my wife were to choose to do something like this. I do know that I would have strong feelings about it, but would I refuse? Who knows?
Regarding having someone to share this with, I agree that the bonding is a good thing, but like Dan, I don't have any real compulsion to tell any of my everyday friends about it. I guess for now I am thankful for our discussions here at least.
-ZM
I'm not sure it's true that women don't judge other women on femininity or lack thereof. It's a reason I think that "forced" feminization can be demeaning to a man while not reflecting any demeaning beliefs about women. It probably depends on the social set and other contexts, but I suspect that many women/girls would make nasty comments about a woman who dresses or acts "butch." I'm pretty sure many of the sorority girls I knew in college would have reacted that way.
DeleteAlan, you said: "I can deal with my wife’s sister knowing I am spanked but am still not comfortable with my brother in law knowing ( which he must) and would resist strongly being spanked in his presence."
DeleteYou never know. I fairly recently asked the female friend who I told about our DD years ago whether she told either of the husbands she's had since. Somewhat surprisingly, she said she hadn't, and I believed her. I do think she may have told her current husband since our recent conversation, because I basically told her I didn't really care and didn't want her to feel like she had to keep secrets from him.
I do think, however, that when people contemplate telling others it's wise to just assume that any confidant will tell at least their spouse.
Thinking further on this, I suppose many would add a fourth classification : maintenance. I guess this might be defined as a regular, discipline-level spanking when there is no specific reason for it. I omitted it as it’s not something we’re generally do. TG
ReplyDeleteAll of our spanking is consensual, and what we are discussing here is something I would never consent to. Of course I will always be anxious and sexually aroused before any kind of spanking, but that will be gone about 30 seconds after it begins. There is no need to remove the closeness and bonding from spanking that Alan refers to. Some of our most intimate moments have been before or after a spanking, as that is when I am most vulnerable.
ReplyDeleteI understand and support that each person in a relationship has their limits and boundaries, and I support every one of them.
Delete"There is no need to remove the closeness and bonding from spanking that Alan refers to."
Not to be argumentative (I promise) but isn't that the prerogative of the Mistress? Mind you, on the three occasions it has happened to me, I was especially deserving!
I agree that there is no need to remove the closeness and bonding from spanking, at least certainly not on any regular basis. But sub hub also makes an interesting point. What if she intentionally chooses to remove that closeness? I would certainly hope that would be for a very short time and not happen often.
Delete"...what we are discussing here is something I would never consent to." - Just hypothetically speaking, what if you knew that your REALLY deserved it, and you knew that if you didn't consent to it, your DD relationship would be forever gone and you would never get another disciplinary spanking? Never is a pretty powerful word. :-)
-ZM
She has never requested it before spanking me but as with all commands issued for a punishment I would comply. I do see how it could be deemed to be proper to get any sexual component out the mind for punishment. I want the punishment to be real and if she deems this to be necessary so be it
ReplyDeleteI don't have any doubt I would comply as well.
DeleteHi Dan,
ReplyDeleteI experienced a post-ejaculation spanking only one time in the past, and I couldn’t remember what the circumstances were surrounding it, and only vaguely how it had made me feel. However, I knew that I had written about it here right after it happened, and so what I wrote at that time is a much better reflection of how I felt about it than my vague memories from two years later.
I searched and searched using every possible keyword I could think of, but Google seems to index this site only some weeks, and this was apparently not one of them. In the end, I spent a long time digging through previous weeks before finally finding it.
I will first repost this as my official account of the one time it happened to me, written two days after it happened. I find it interesting that what I said about it right after it happened doesn’t completely align with how my thoughts about the subject have developed in the time since, so I will write about the topic in a separate post. Here is my account from a few years ago:
From “Meeting 359, Role Play” November 10, 2020…
“And on another note, which relates to the whole ‘bets’ thing I just mentioned, Sunday I received my first (and hopefully only for quite some time) post-ejaculation spanking. My wife has been pretty curious about the concept, so she included it in a game of chance we came up with (using dice), and fate brought it my way.
I would say it certainly hurts more, though not as much more as I expected. Of course, the actual physical sensations are the same, but totally and completely not wanting it in any way, and with it having no sexual component at all, just makes it totally different.
I wish I could describe it better. I guess I would just say that somehow the punishment felt ‘clearer,’ I guess because my mind was fully on the physical sensation?”
-ZM
Hi ZM,
DeleteI have a question for you. Have your thoughts about the subject developed or has you “memory” of the experience changed? The context of the question is in some of my recent reading on the topic of “evolving” memory, i.e. the process by which apparently our memories are reshaped over time and also by the very process of remembering in the first place.
Those studying the event propose that every time we remember, we subtly reshape what we remember, in effect creating a new memory each time. These findings are probably rather shocking to those who think of memory as a mental zerox copy of actual evens no matter how long ago they occurred. In fact it seems our memories not only “evolve” but they also are subject to selective retention and deterioration over time.
I am a certified nerd and so find all this fascinating with societal and policy implications that run wide and deep. Just consider the Criminal Justice System that prior to DNA relied on “eye witness” testimony so heavily even though we now know how unreliably that is –and a lot of it is fairly short term memory.
Anyway, back to my question: have your memories changed or your thinking or some dynamic mixture of the two?
Alan
Hi ZM. I suspect, though don't know for sure, that Google indexes only the body of blog posts and not the comments. I have never had the slightest success searching for anything that was in a comment unless I copied portions of it into a later post. It is extremely irritating.
Delete"I would say it certainly hurts more, though not as much more as I expected. Of course, the actual physical sensations are the same, but totally and completely not wanting it in any way, and with it having no sexual component at all, just makes it totally different."
It's interesting to me how this conversation has developed. When it's come up in the past, it all seemed to be about the increased pain. This time, it's been much more about the changes in the emotions involved, and the difference seems to be hard to articulate.
Hi Alan,
Delete"Have your thoughts about the subject developed or has your 'memory' of the experience changed? The context of the question is in some of my recent reading on the topic of 'evolving' memory, i.e. the process by which apparently our memories are reshaped over time and also by the very process of remembering in the first place." - How interesting that you would ask this! This is exactly what I had already begun writing about (on word, of course), because one thing I realized with this topic is that my feelings about post-ejaculation spankings don't seem consistent with what they used to be, and this is distorting even the way I remember it. As I was pondering this weeks question, I was feeling pretty negative about all of it, but then it dawned on me that I didn't feel negative about it back when it actually happened, or at least I couldn't remember feeling that way. So that is what got me digging through old posts to find my written impressions of it right after it happened. As I read what I wrote before, and as I have written a few comments this week, I have realized that it is not that I am negative about post-orgasm spankings, but rather I am very against the idea that they are somehow "needed" to make a spanking "real." Yes, I believe they can make a very strong impact, and there might be a good use for them, but they certainly are not essential, and even more so they are not the differentiator between a spanking being real punishment or not.
I agree all this stuff like somewhat malleable memories is very interesting! In the end, I think what I read is pretty consistent with what I remembered, but my feelings about the whole thing have evolved somewhat.
And Dan, I agree that this conversation has taken an interesting turn. At least from my perspective, I can say that it is all about the emotions involved. If it is just more pain, my wife seems to have lots of ways to pull that off (waxing my bottom, spanking me over tights, using anything rubber, etc.)!
-ZM
I finally threw all our rubber tools away. There really is such a thing as "too" severe.
DeleteHi Dan,
ReplyDeleteA few comments from what you wrote in your original post this week.
“A couple of weeks ago, K and Alan had a series of exchanges focusing on post-orgasm spankings, also sometimes referred to as ‘milking.’” - If I am correct, I think the term “milking” is used specifically for a certain type of ejaculation where there is little or no stimulation on the penis itself, but rather the prostate is manually stimulated either internally (the finger up the bum that Alan referred to) or externally by massaging his perineum until all the semen just kind of dribbles out, without no normal feeling of orgasm. This is widely used - or at least is claimed to be used - by couples practicing male chastity. It provides some physical release of the prostate without giving any emotional release.
This makes me wonder how post-ejaculation spankings would differ after masturbation (pretty quick release), making love (longer build-up, full release), milking (only physical release), and ruined orgasm (limited physical and emotional release)? Of course, I have experience only with two of those things, and have only been spanked after making love, so I have no idea.
“I do recognize, however, that this might be one of those things where the rubber really meets the road regarding behavior correction. I have no doubt that being completely relieved of the erotic or sexual tension and energy that may be bound up in the desire for DD leaves only pure punishment, and I can see it being option for very serious offenses if ‘lighter’ forms of punishment haven’t worked.” - I agree about his being “rubber meeting the road.” I have said vehemently this week that spankings don’t have to be post-orgasm to be real punishment, but for me there is no doubt that post-orgasm spankings are real punishment. I do see this truly as the “nuclear option” as Alan likes to call it, and I do know that when a wife uses it, the message will be heard!
“Also, it's just the nature of an orgasm to leave you feeling lazy and content -- about the last thing you would want after that is a long, hard spanking. Of course, that is kind of the whole point of doing it that way. I sometimes wonder whether removing all that energy would make it easier for me to get to real tears, but I kind of doubt it. The two don’t seem connected, but I could be wrong.” - This lazy, contented feeling after an orgasm (the refraction time) is probably what makes the whole thing so powerful to me. I NEVER want a spanking, but during the time right after orgasm, I REALLY, REALLY don’t want a spanking. It is not so much that the sexuality is removed from the equation, since a good spanking removes that in a matter of seconds anyway, but rather because it feels really non-consensual to be spanked when you SO DON’T want a spanking!
As for tears, who knows? Maybe?
-ZM
I hadn't seen that specific use of "milking." You learn something new every day.
DeleteIt's hard to articulate, but I feel like there is a certain energy going into a spanking that helps make it more bearable. Getting spanked after cumming would be like running a marathon, collapsing at the finish line, then being told you needed to go swim a mile.
DeleteZM wrote: “This makes me wonder how post-ejaculation spankings would differ after masturbation (pretty quick release), making love (longer build-up, full release), and milking (only physical release), and ruined orgasm (limited physical and emotional release)....”
There are emotional differences in being spanked after masturbation and being spanked after love making – but little or no physical difference as far as feeling it. Time between orgasm and subsequent spanking doesn’t seem to matter much although it might if the interval is much linger than a few hours. As for milking and ruined orgasm I have no experience but imagine the latter two practices sometimes leave a lot of sexual energy in the body and that ( via endorphins, etc) could reduce the impact of being spanked. Maybe someone else has experience with that
Alan
As one of the people who seems to have instigated this discussion, I'm finding these comments and perspectives very interesting. Thanks for sharing, everyone.
ReplyDeleteAs I've mentioned, J often (though not always) has me climax before I'm disciplined or punished, and I definitely hate it, for the reasons others also hate it (or imagine they'd hate it). It makes me more sensitive and de-sexualizes what follows, making the spanking both more humiliating and less exciting. It absolutely sucks, no doubt about it, and makes the experience much more purely punitive than it otherwise would be.
But I don't find, in our case, that it detracts from or eliminates the closeness and bonding that we have. We're in a relationship where she can punish me. That's why I signed up for, that's what I want, and that's what she expects. And punishments aren't supposed to be sexy or fun; they're supposed to be something you don't like at all. Having me climax first helps her achieve that more efficiently, and I accept that, even though I definitely don't like it. However, the fact that she disciplines and punishes me - in very real ways - when she feels she needs to is one of the things that brings us closer together. So while I hate the experience itself (which, because I try to avoid it, doesn't happen that often), I love that she does what she feels she needs to to make the discipline real and no-nonsense.
K
But I don't find, in our case, that it detracts from or eliminates the closeness and bonding that we have. We're in a relationship where she can punish me. That's why I signed up for, that's what I want, and that's what she expects. And punishments aren't supposed to be sexy or fun; they're supposed to be something you don't like at all. "
DeleteI get this. It may illustrate a difference between bonding in the moment and bonding in the larger relationship context.
I get his too!
DeleteSince the conversation has taken a turn toward the emotions involved in spanking, let me offer this quote from the "Huband's Essay" on the Real People section of the DWC site for consideration:
ReplyDelete"The fantasy DWC wife for the sentimental husband (one with an emotional makeup exactly like mine, that is!) would always combine nurturing with her punishments. She would thoughtfully prepare two washcloths, a warm one and a cool one, at the same time as fetches her dreaded hairbrush. After exhausting her strong right arm applying a vigorous paddling his naughty bare bottom, she sweetly hums a soothing melody while tenderly ministering to his burning, scarlet hindquarters and snotty nose. Then, while he stands in the corner, sniffling and humble, she bakes a nice tray of chocolate chip cookies. Everything is OK again, just as nice as family life can get!
All fantasies aside, it is easy to observe that spouses feel a whole lot of love from each other following any spanking, and after a particularly harsh (for them) spanking, the effect is especially noticeable. It is not the physical act itself which automatically creates the loving atmosphere; it is the underlying emotional script. For example, she may spank him because he is depressed or pouty, although has not necessarily misbehaved. Getting this spanking--and he may need a serious one, just as when he has seriously misbehaved--will meet an emotional need for him, and he will love her afterwards for giving him the attention he needed.
On the other hand, it can be very therapeutic for the wife when she chooses to spank principally because she is feeling stressed up and needs to let off some steam. She may unconsciously pick an argument to set up her reason, or she may just announce her intent without ado. But when it's over, she will feel much better. In this case, she will love him for "being there" for her--"there" being OTK on demand, accepting a perhaps undeserved and perhaps vigorous blistering just because he loves her. Neither or these spankings involved breaking of a rule by the husband, but both were therapeutic to at least one party, and more likely than not to both parties."
--al
I had forgotten that initial paragraph parodying the fantasy spanking wife.
DeleteAl, I agree with you and the points in that essay. A husband should definitely be "there" for her in that respect, even if there aren't specific infractions. If that is necessary to help her feel better about whatever is on her mind, he should do it. In doing so, he shows how much he loves her.
DeleteThe ability to do a "just because" spanking also eliminates the usefulness to the husband of whether or not he has broken applicable rules and therefore deserves a spanking.
Thank you for a wonderful blog. As a spanked husband I have been reading your blog for a long time but rarely have to opportunity/time to contribute until today.
ReplyDeleteThe conversation around a post orgasm spanking is very interesting. Having experienced a few of these I think the part that affects me the most is the absolute obedience it takes to bend over knowing how much it will hurt. Yes — pre orgasm I know it will hurt but there is SO much dread after orgasm. In both cases I know it will hurt (ALOT) but pre orgasm it seems like the brain almost tricks you into believing it will be ok. Post orgasm…. No tricking involved !!
Do not get me wrong… in my experience a post orgasm hurts more but at the same time we ultimately reach the same place with me begging, kicking and squirming. I think the post orgasm just gets you there much faster.
Another topic is how hard (pun intended) it is to actually orgasm knowing what is to follow. In my case my wife usually stands and watches to ensure it is complete. If any comments are made by me complaining they usually rebuked with “you might as well enjoy right now…. we will deal with the other in a minute” and other comments like “hurry up” . To date there have been no threats of additional spanking but I am also careful to try and comply. My hunch is that her firm attitude helps with the “mindset” and thus the obedience to bend over later.
Hopefully this all makes sense.
Thanks again for the great blog
Thanks for joining in! I hope you'll contribute more in the future.
Delete"Having experienced a few of these I think the part that affects me the most is the absolute obedience it takes to bend over knowing how much it will hurt. Yes — pre orgasm I know it will hurt but there is SO much dread after orgasm. In both cases I know it will hurt (ALOT) but pre orgasm it seems like the brain almost tricks you into believing it will be ok."
I haven't experienced it, but I can see how it would work exactly this way, and I do get what you mean about how your brain "tricks you into believing it will be OK." I can't really articulate it, but there definitely is something about the pre-orgasm state of energy that gives me an unrealistic expectation. I've been spanked dozens and dozens of times, yet somehow I'm always surprised at just how much those first few swats hurt. The erotic energy also somehow offsets to some degree the fear of what is to come.
Couple of points. Firstly I agree about the extreme closeness after a spanking and have noticed no difference at all to that when the spanking is post-orgasm. Secondly, I have noticed a number of comments this week talking about the possible presence of another person during a punishment, particularly another man. I have no experience of this but unfortunately, we discovered the DWC website what must have been shortly after their last group get-together. There were articles on the site at the time about their gathering and vague references to doing it again, but it never happened. We had pretty much decided to go to the next one. I really have no idea how the dynamics would feel - assuming that there was more than just talk when people were together, but it’s always stuck me as an interesting situation. As far as I know, we know no other couples into DD so it will probably never happen. TG
ReplyDeleteWe were pretty young (relatively) when I discovered the DWC, and I kind of doubt that we were mature enough then to be open to that experience. I'm also not sure when I discovered it in relation to its heyday including things like real group get-togethers. It definitely was still being actively updated with new stories in the "real people" section and guestbook when I discovered it.
DeleteAs far as "it probably will never happen" goal, I suspect that's true in our case, though I really have learned to take a "never say never" approach to almost everything in life.
At one point there was an account of that get together on the DWC site. To my recollection there was only one, although I believe another was planned - but I don't think it came about. I believe that the event was circa 2003..
DeleteAunt Kay and her husband Tomy did meet up with other DWC couples from time to time however - especially if the couple happened to be visiting the Bay Area (San Francisco area) where they lived. I believe this usually involved dinner and conversation, topped off by the husbands baring their behinds for the paddle. Despite Aunt Kay's strong advocacy of F/M spanking discipline, she quite enjoyed the fun of it all as well.
--al
CONSENSUS? SORT OF.
ReplyDeleteDespite the dearth of female comments so far on this topic, we have had several women who addressed post orgasm spanking in earlier discussions. We have also had many male posters in this and in earlier discussions who have explained to various degrees why their wife or girlfriend used them. And how they felt about it –or now feel about it.
If there is a pattern in any of these comments, it probably is that post orgasm spankings are used to de-eroticize spanking as discipline or to emphasize the punishment side of spanking –and sometimes to increase the severity of a punishment
This appears to be not the only reasons a post orgasm spanking might be given. Some apparently are “accidental “(at least the first time) discovered in the process of administering a spanking shortly after lovemaking. Others might be motivated by efficiency (no long buildups necessary) or to avoid leaving marks or bruises. Psychological reasons also are probably a factor since most males hate and fear them, a fact probably all too obvious to a disciplinarian thinking about using them.
They also in my experience are powerful just as a threat, making them a great tool for a woman who might prefer not to have to actually administer one.
Males seem to differ quite a bit about whether they approve of the practice –while mostly acknowledging they have or would submit to one if their wife or girlfriend insisted. Few if any males who have experienced a post orgasm spanking want to repeat it or remember it as anything but punishment. Albeit at least some of those males seem resigned to the reality that it will be a part of their relationship.
We don’t know however how wide spread or frequently post orgasm spanking are actually used. The consensus we do have about it could be summed up as: most of us ( but not all) feel that a women has or should have the authority to use post orgasm spanking in a female led DD relationship, BUT it should be a rare event and in should not be a regular part of discipline.
The “but not all” males part of this is however important because some couples do apparently use it frequently or regularly and it works for them that way.
The actual effects of post orgasm spanking in the relationship also seems unclear As Dan points out in a post above, last time we discussed it the emphasis was on pain whereas this discussion has focused on its emotional effects. And ZM notes that his own thinking about it has changed some from his earlier thinking about it. We probably are correct in assuming it is the “gold standard” insofar as managing recidivist male behavior. But for me that leaves open the question of why some couples might use it routinely or regularly. Surely if several post orgasm spankings haven’t worked, the next one isn’t likely to work either.
This reasoning is why I have referred to it as the “nuclear option”, remaining aware than the actual spectrum of attitudes toward it and use of it is a wide spectrum among couples in a female led DD relationship. It may be the nuclear option for me, but it is more like a conventional weapon for some
So this may be one topic we are agreeing to disagree about – while reserving the right to change our mind = both on what we agree and what we disagree.
Alan
Sorry Alan, this one got caught up in the spam filter. Usually, it is especially suspicious of both you and ZM. This week, it seems to be just you.
DeleteI forgot to work":antitrust violation" into my posts this week. That seems to perk up the Google robot,
DeleteNice synopsis, Alan. --al
DeleteI guess I better say something before we move onto another topic, since my name's been mentioned. I'm not complaining. I'm glad people see my contributions as positive. I'm going to stay away from one thing related to this topic unless somebody's interested, since it could be interpreted more as BDSM than Discipline. Trust me, the way I use it, it's Discipline, but as we try to keep mention of BDSM to a minimum, I'll refrain from talking about it for now.
ReplyDeleteDressing husband started out as underdressing when he was my boyfriend for security measures. It's funny, I should have paid more attention to his reaction to it at the time. He didn't want to do it when he went out on nights I had to work after the first time. He preferred to stay home rather than wear my panties under his jeans.. I let him out of that. All this was before we began Domestic Discipline. One thing about that, though, was he kept the panties on so I could see them when I got home, He looked so cute in them, I couldn't restrain myself. From there, I dressed him on other items, but all in the privacy of our bedroom. As a result, he still associates getting dressed with sex, even though I've decreed special dresses and lingerie for Discipline, only.
Somebody mentioned panties as a way to show The Wife wears the pants. When Husband's under Discipline or in chastity, one of the signs he has to hang on the wall says "MISS CECILIA WEARS THE PANTS, MISS CECILIA MAKES THE RULES. PRISCILLA WEARS THE PANTIES, PRISCILLA OBEYS THE RULES." I suppose that some people might say this is reinforcing the outdated stereotype that men make the rules in relationships and women obey. We don't read that into it. When he's under Discipline or in chastity, I AM the one making the Rules, after all.
I enjoy giving post orgasm spankings to him and he hates it. I have him bawling and begging real fast. One thing I'll do to humble him happens when I'm disciplining him for pornography. If I catch him on pornography, I assume he's masturbated, which he's also not permitted to do. So I'll put some pornography on the computer screen and have him "show me what he did." If he stops stroking, a few swats of the tawse and a sharply spoken command to continue gets him going again. He stops because he's afraid he'll ejaculate. He's usually not allowed to ask permission to ejaculate, but this is an exception. Of course, I deny him permission. Of course, he does anyhow. I'll pass over what he has to do when he ejaculates without permission and go right to the penalty he pays: 25 strokes of the tawse. It's one of the few times I have him count. If he misses the count, we go back to the last number he got right and I "help" him count to 25. Then we start over again and I "help" him count all 25. The "helping" gives three strokes of the tawse for every number. Besides his tears and begging, the one indicator that he finds post orgasm spanking so bad is he always misses the count. He either skips a number or says the same number twice in a row. He's usually accurate for the first 10-15, but after that, he gets something wrong.
It was too long, so I had to break it up.
ReplyDeleteYes, husband had a major objection to male witnesses. It took a lot to get him to go to events and gatherings since there would be other men there. He's admitted he's less uncomfortable in front of disciplined men than men who discipline their partners. It took him some getting used to waiting on the men who discipline at our gatherings. At some of them, the disciplined partners wait on the disciplining partners. He's had to serve drinks or snacks to disciplining men and he still really doesn't like it. It's funny he doesn't have the same problem when he's serving them to the ladies.
When I invite ladies to witness a Disciplinary Session, he still has a hard limit against another man. I've done Disciplinary Sessions with another lady and me disciplining our men at the same time. At first, he had a problem with that, but I managed to get him to agree to it on occasion. He's still insisting on me not inviting men to witness like I invite ladies. I've threatened to do it occasionally, and I get the immediate safe word.
What happened to the first part of my comment? It was here, but once I posted the second part, it disappeared.
ReplyDeleteIt's odd that "it was here." Just found it in the spam box. Though, I did have that happen to me on someone else's blog recently. I posted, it seemed to be there, then a few minutes later it was gone.
DeleteIt is part of Googles little game . The post is shown as published on the device that posted it, but surreptitiously Google is sending it to its spam oven. I just hope they are not engaging in any anti trust activities
DeleteAlan
Yes, same here. I believe it was last week I posted a couple of comments that seemed to be there, but were gone when I checked back in a bit later. --al
DeleteI agree with much of what has been written above. I feel a strong bond with my husband after a disciplinary spanking, much stronger than with erotic spanking.
ReplyDeleteI also think I would be much more embarrassed with a witness who was a spanker versus a witness who also got spanked. But I would definitely be more embarrassed with a male witness than a female because of all he would see.
As far as the purpose of making a naughty husband wear female clothing, I do think it has to do with the stereotypical female role of being more submissive. To reverse the situation, would I be humbled if my husband made me put on his underwear? I think not. I would look silly and we both might laugh, but it would not make me more submissive as you husbands describe when being forced into panties. Why the different reaction? Wearing male clothes does not make me feel submissive because that is not the male stereotype. I sometimes wear one of my husband's work shirts and I feel more aggressive sexually with it on. He is aroused by it too. I doubt that a husband in a bra feels more aggressive.
Cynthia Ellen
A THOUGHT EXPERIMENT
ReplyDeleteThis is a thought exponent, which I understand as thinking through the consequences of a hypothetical (never happened) situation.
In real life I have never seen another adult male spanked nor do I ever expect to. But in this thought experiment I imagine I am going to witness two different men being spanked. Both are receiving severe but consensual punishment spankings from a wife or girlfriend.
Guy number one has not had a recent orgasm and will not have one either before or during the spanking. As I watch the spanking progress I feel a little uncomfortable as he flails around desperately trying to escape the heavy strap his wife is using and he begins to beg her to stop, his voice beginning to break as she continues relentlessly long past the point he clearly wants it to stop. But my discomfort level is not that high because I know he is getting what he ultimately really wants and the pain he is feeling is being at least somewhat mitigated by his erotic feelings. If he has an erection before the spanking started it is long gone –but it will return within 5 minutes after his wife puts him in the corner after the spanking is over. I am probably not going to have any erotic feelings as I watch because he is being severally punished and I am not a sadist. But I can watch the spanking without feeling any kind of strong sympathy for him or the ordeal he is experiencing. I probably have somewhat mild positive feelings that another guy has received the spanking he deserved, needed and wanted.
Guy number two receives exactly the same spanking except that he has been made to climax before the spanking as a part of the punishment. He has agreed to this, so it is consensual although it has taken an act of will for him to get into position when ordered to by his wife. He of course will not have an erection before the spanking nor is it likely he will have one for a good while after the spanking. He has no erotic feelings when the spanking begins. And during the spanking he makes it clear he is desperate for it to stop long before it does. As I watch his spanking progress I become very uncomfortable as he begins to exhibit the familiar behavior of a man receiving a punishment spanking. And the longer I watch the more uncomfortable I become , pretty quickly reaching the point where I can’t watch any longer and may have to leave the room or otherwise react to the angst I feel at the pain he is experiencing. This becomes a very negative experience for me even thought I know it’s consensual. I know that if I tried to stop it he probably would want to punch me in the nose, but I still can’t watch it any longer
So two identical spankings, but two near opposite reactions to watching them. Why?
I don’t think I can adequately answer that. But I know that the answer lies somewhere amongst the ambiguous and contradictory feelings many of us seem to have about post orgasm spanking – about removing the eroticism from spanking.
It’s possible my imagined reactions to these two hypothetical spanking are not typical. If anyone cares to comment, feeling as I do or feeling differently about it, the floor is open
Alan
Alan, I suspect personal experience would play a major role. I don't have the same reaction to your thought experiment, but I've also never experienced a post-orgasm spanking. I might see the two scenarios very differently if I had.
DeleteExperience probably determines perception here. But I suspect experience works differently in different folks. I can imagine another male who has experienced a post orgasm spanking reacting more positively than I imagined I would react to watching another male punished that way. That may be that because I view post orgasm spankings as probably sometimes necessary but not necessarily positive experiences, whereas some others seem to view them as both sometimes necessary and ultimately positive experiences
DeleteAlan
We have talked about this practice and my wife has a clear view that it would be more uncomfortable than a 'normal' spanking, but has not tried it yet. That said, she will occasionally, whilst we are making love, refer to the spanking that she is planning to give me - no surprise that such comments are a real turn on at the time but the spanking has not yet occurred immediately after. I find the idea, the fantasy of being made to orgasm but being punished quite exciting but I know that I would hate it. I may be wrong but for me spanking is a pleasure / pain experience that is inextricably linked to the sex drive which we somehow harness to control & modify my behavior. It is almost as intimate as sex in an adult relationship and removing that sexual tension feels like it may spoil the intense intimacy, even when it is pure punishment. TB
ReplyDelete"I find the idea, the fantasy of being made to orgasm but being punished quite exciting but I know that I would hate it. I may be wrong but for me spanking is a pleasure / pain experience that is inextricably linked to the sex drive which we somehow harness to control & modify my behavior."
DeleteInterestingly, I'm not sure that in any of the previous comments anyone said that they found the idea of pre-orgasm spankings exciting. I personally don't. It may be because spanking isn't a "pleasure/pain" experience for me. At least when it is happening, it's all pain. I'm definitely not a masochist with respect to the spanking experience itself.
The 'pleasure' is on the fantasy, the pain is in the reality. I have never received a spanking that I enjoyed but like many lifelong 'spankos', thinking about it, seeing images, stories and videos are exciting. And for me, that is the conundrum of wanting it but not wanting it. TB
DeleteI'm a newbie and have never been spanked really hard but at this point I want to feel the pain because I want to know I am truly being punished for what I did wrong and I want to know that he is in charge and willing to tan my behind.
DeleteCynthia Ellen
I’ve been away due to a health crisis that looked as if our spanking days were done for good. I’m much better now.
ReplyDeleteOn the power exchange thread of this week, the last five spankings Ann started something new. When I get home from work I am to go to our room and undress to the white briefs I’ve been required to wear.
Then I set up pillows on the bed and get out implements. Finally, I’m required to walk through the house to the family room, stand in front of her and first tell her I’m ready. Then I have to ask her to spank me.
When we get to the room, sometimes before she tells me to pull down my shorts, sometimes after, she lectures me about what I’ve done and how it makes her feel.
This feels completely different. To me it is so humbling and feels a lot closer to getting spanked as a child. I tend to be really nervous, just like childhood. But we are so close afterwards!
Hi Fred. Welcome back. I'm glad to hear the health issue is better.
DeleteThanks Dan. Ann used to do the post-orgasm route when I was aroused when it was time to pull down my pants. It hurts much more and I’m glad that hasn’t been a problem for quite a while. I have to say that I’ve experienced the loss of connection or closeness that others described. I guess it’s another example of (pun intended) different strokes for different folks!
DeleteThat’s “haven’t experienced the loss of connection. “
DeleteI was made to pull myself only once before a spanking by my wife and I'm glad it was only once. To say that it was like hell isn't a start of it. I was in just a world pain and rightfully so. I won't say why, but I recieved what I deserved and when we arrived at a BBQ that afternoon, I was still feeling the burn and was embarrassed at the thought that my wife had told the lady of the house about spanking me that morning, (no other details were implied though).
ReplyDelete