Sunday, August 29, 2021

The Club - Meeting 381 - Inevitability, Openness, Etc.

"When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be." -- Lao Tzu

 

Hello all.  Welcome back to the Disciplinary Couple’s Club.  Our weekly gathering of men and women who are in, or would like to be in, Domestic Discipline relationships. I hope you all had a great week.

 

Mine was an odd combination.  Grueling. Exhausting. Life affirming. Centering.  A little more on that later.

 

That was a great conversation last week.  I like it when our group gets into a genuine conversation and takes things in a lot of different directions.  Indeed, it’s kind of what I hoped for when I decided to try to become a little less topic focused.  The conversation just seems to work better when it’s more like riffing on a theme, just kind of throwing out some thoughts and seeing where it goes.

 

On the public aspect of punishment, Caged Lion noted that people are uncomfortable with just about any level of public punishment or even rebuke.

 

It's the act of disciplining someone. I think it is uncomfortable for people to witness scolding. No matter what your personal beliefs, watching punishment isn't necessarily comfortable for spectators. 

 

 

ZM didn’t disagree but he noted some of the benefits of public punishment, or at least public knowledge a punishment was or would be delivered.  He related this to school punishments, noting: ZM

 

Public punishment wasn't uncommon for much of recorded history, and at times it was even a source of morbid entertainment. Going back to the school punishments, I think that the whole system benefited from the discomfort that everyone felt when someone was sent to the office; even those who were amused were a little jarred by it knowing that it might be them next.

 

[As an aside, ZM and I both seem to be quite attracted to school punishments, even though (and perhaps because) we were more bystanders than participants.  Interestingly, I did get sent to the principals office a few times assuming that I would get paddled, only to go back to the classroom with an unspanked bottom. I guess I was good at talking my way out of consequences even back then.]

 

I agree that the openness of punishment growing up did seem to create a kind of collective deterrent effect in which the whole was greater than the sum of its parts. And, I can’t help but wonder whether we all are now are reaping what we’ve sown with our aversion to discipline in general and certainly to any kind of public shaming.  Fights breaking out on airplanes and in airports at unprecedent levels. Parents and patrons at stores feeling free to rip masks off the faces of teachers and employees.  Really unprecedented levels of public rudeness. I really do wonder how much of this can be traced back to a couple of generations in which unfettered freedom is emphasized over discipline and public decorum and where there is seldom any serious public shaming for bad behavior.

 

 

While I share the group’s ambivalence about openness and public shaming, it seems to be pretty hard to deny that it might be darned effective at actually changing behavior.  ZM noted how embarrassing it would be for acquaintances to know about our punishments:

 

For me the thought of guys knowing, especially friends, is generally harder than the thought of women knowing, but I am not sure exactly why that is. Also, it is interesting that in general I think it would be easier to tell guys that I was grounded (though she has never done that), and it would be easier to tell women that I was spanked. I am not sure why this is, and in fact only realized it as I was sitting here writing.

 

I think for me personally, it would be hard for both male and female friends to know about both spanking and grounding.  I suspect that knowing that Anne would, or even might, tell others about a particular punishment would give me a very big added incentive to behave. And, it wouldn’t even have to be people we were very close to.  

 

  

Al talked a bit this week about being spanked by others, and Tomy has talked a bit about times when Aunt Kay sent him to another woman to be spanked or other women sent their husbands to Aunt Kay for a session.  I admit that something about those stories turn me on, but they also really do scare the hell out of me. I think I would react to being sent to someone else to be spanked exactly the way I reacted when sent to the principals office, i.e. with a sense of dread that far outweighed the actual likely physical pain from the spanking.

 

For me, I think it’s not just the public nature of a spanking by someone else, or witnessed by someone else, that makes it particularly gut wrenching.  It’s also about inevitability.  That has always been a really big part of the mystique of corporal punishment for me.  If Anne sent me to be spanked by another woman (or man), I would know on the trip there that it was actually going to happen, period.  Something about that kind of inevitability – knowing that I can’t and won’t be able to avoid it -- causes a really powerful reaction in me.  Somehow, making it public that a spanking or grounding will happen makes it seem more inevitable, and making a past or current punishment public makes it seem, somehow, more real and—maybe surprisingly—less erotically motivated.

 

 

The power of inevitability hit me this week, in a context that had absolutely nothing to do with DD but perhaps did have a bit to do with self-discipline.  I took on a physical/athletic challenge that I knew was going to be hard, but in the end I discovered I had totally underestimated just how hard it would actually be.  There came a point where pulling out really wasn’t an option and even if there had been some way to quit, there was going to be a huge amount of effort and discomfort involved in getting back to where I started.  It was an odd feeling – wanting something to end so badly, yet having no way to avoid not just the current discomfort but a lot of discomfort to come. There was a point where it was really, really miserable.  Yet, I felt really odd when it was over.  On the one hand, there was some satisfaction in having gotten through it and in gutting it out, yet I also recognized that there had come that point at which I really made it through because there had been no other choice.  It wasn’t really pride or satisfaction but, rather, just a certain weird peace of mind in knowing that I got through something that had at some point become inevitable.  There was a strange sense of peace or freedom in being in a situation in which I had little control, particularly control when it came to quitting.

 

Right about the time I got through this ordeal, I found this meme that really sums up my ambivalence about motivation and extreme performance. I hope you find it as ironically amusing as I do.

 

 

I hope you have a good week.

52 comments:

  1. As I may have indicated previously whilst I'm open with very close friends (of all gender and lifestyles) I have two reasons not to want public exposure: 1) I have three daughters and despite a certain openness on discussions this is one I'd rather not have pre 21 and 2) Mrs GLM has a public persona and her civic work is important to her and I would have my needs to interfere with that.

    On motivation I agree with the adage that if you know when to stop you have succeded. I attempted a well known UK peaks walk about 5 years ago, I knew at the starting point of the third climb I was done. If I had tried to climb I would have been a danger to others. I havn't been back to finish it because I passed an ultimate test, that of common sense. Cheers GLM

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    1. Sorry that should read wouldn't want my needs to interfere. Cheers GLM

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    2. I could probably be accused, rightfully, of a bit of gender bias where informing kids is concerned. For some reason, the prospect of girls knowing about the DD side of our relationship doesn't bother me. In fact, I've often thought that knowing of their mother's authority and willingness to use power might actually be empowering for them. On the other hand, I'm not sure that I would want a son to know and, for some reason, it feels like that would be more embarrassing for me.

      I sympathize with the issues around public exposure and your spouse's career. Mine isn't a public persona, but she is in a conservative profession in which being "outed" for that kind of behavior could, in fact, have negative consequences even in today's more tolerant environment.

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  2. I think that the idea of inevitability, while good for us, is a problem for our disciplinary wives. I know my wife has a lot of trouble with this when it comes to me being disobedient or disrespectful. I've noticed you also write about your wife not punishing you at times you expect it.

    I think that if we take the pressure off them by expecting consistency in all disciplinary issues, they will be much more comfortable punishing us for those "squishy" offenses.

    The idea of being sent to another woman to punish me is a hot idea. If it really happened, it would scare the hell out of me.

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    1. Sorry, just to clarify, are you saying that you think more consistency would take the pressure off them? If so, I agree.

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    2. No, the opposite. When it comes to disobedience or disrespect, the requirement to consistently punish offenses is offputting to the woman. Based on what my wife has said and also on comments here from disciplining wives, they want to decide if an offense is spankable.

      You've written that your wife doesn't always punish you when you do something that you feel should be punished. I think that it's this expectation of punishment every time we do something that is called out that causes our wives so much trouble.

      They have to decide if the offense is all our fault or might be partly the result of external factors. Also, we are topping from the bottom when we express that we should have been punished when we weren't. I haven't seen any man complain that they get punished unfairly. But I regularly see complaints that punishments were not given when deserved. I have to ask, who decides if something should be punished? Not us, right?

      I've resolved to let my wife decide when what I do rises to the level that it needs punishment. I believe she will become more consistent if she knows that she doesn't have to punish me every time she growls at me.

      I'm saying that *less* consistency (from our perspective, at least), will take the pressure off them.

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    3. Got it. On this one, we probably disagree. I think that *inconsistency* is part of what drives stress and accompanying self-doubt. When forming habits or changing behavior, what we do every day is more important than what we do every once in a while. And, habits save a lot of mental energy because they put things on autopilot. Then there is the indecisiveness that comes with doing some kind of "punishable?" calculus every time an offense is presented. My personal view is many wives could save themselves a lot of mental and emotional energy if they just committed to spanking every time some particularly problematic or annoying behavior manifests himself.

      As I've written a lot here, I just don't buy the whole "topping from the bottom" concept. I think it inhibits communication and is kind of an import from Femdom that doesn't fit particularly well in DD or even FLR relationships.

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    4. It seems to me that consistency, like with raising children, would be important in good discipline. And I think of myself as being into good discipline. Yet, I feel that I would rather my wife choose when punishment is needed, and I'd be happy to avoid painful and humiliating consequences that I would judge as appropriate. This must be because I don't want to be the judge, and my desire for DD isn't really motivated by a search for self-improvement. If and when punishment happens, it's because it was her idea, and not because she thinks my needs aren't being met. It would be more like it was growing up. I never asked for or wanted to be punished. Later in life, I look back at some situations and think, I should have been punished, and even wish I had been but, at the time, I wasn't complaining.

      Regarding another point, as a lib, my general feeling was always that shaming was not the right way to punish. I'm not so sure now. The shameless lying, cheating, irresponsibility and corruption that exists today has become normalized to the point where there's nothing to slow it down. How can shameless people be shamed into doing the right thing? And it's not limited to younger people. Why is my generation, where shame was a more common consequence for bad behavior, where law and order was revered, just as likely to be shameless, and also to favor freedom so strongly over responsibility? It may just be the inevitable result of this particular experiment in democracy.

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    5. Brett, I share your gravitation toward a dynamic that seems very parental and, you're right that the dynamic included not complaining about getting away with things. I think what has changed over the years is more of a recognition now that both being punished and avoiding being punished entail a set of consequences, and I'm more capable now of getting that avoiding consequences in the short term causes me grief in the long term.

      I totally get your second paragraph. I feel like I *should* be against shaming and should be very supportive of personal freedom, and yet I'm starting to sound like an old man griping that freedom has to be coupled to personal and civic responsibility. I agree that the real difficulty now is how do you shame the shameless. I've had a theory for a while that 10 or 15% of the population are just, in a word, assholes. In the old days (like 6 years ago), the collective weight of traditions and institutions kept them in line. Then along came Trump, and all those assholes saw him getting away with bad behavior, and they took it as a license that they too could unleash the inner asshole that they had been repressing. Regarding why we're seeing it in older generations, let's face it, self-indulgence has always been the Boomer generations' defining attribute. It came along with a lot of great social activism and a loosening of truly repressive standards, which should be celebrated, but it doesn't change the fact that it's a generation that has always kind of been all about indulging the Id.

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    6. Hi Dan,
      "...habits save a lot of mental energy because they put things on autopilot. Then there is the indecisiveness that comes with doing some kind of 'punishable?' calculus every time an offense is presented." - True on both counts. Habits are what make life a lot less overwhelming. Once we have habits in place, we achieve automaticity, where most of the little day to day things don't require much conscious thought. And also, if it just becomes habit to punish when offenses happen, it removes the stress of deliberating each time whether punishment should happen or not.

      "As I've written a lot here, I just don't buy the whole 'topping from the bottom' concept. I think it inhibits communication and is kind of an import from Femdom that doesn't fit particularly well in DD or even FLR relationships." - I mostly agree with this, though I do think there is a balance, since I know that even I have had times where I tried to dictate too much of how things should work, instead of just letting my wife learn organically. But in the end, communication is key, not only for DD but for everything in a relationship. So if I were to err, I would prefer it be on the side of too much communication everytime. As for the femdom connection (the "topping from the bottom phrase") it is surprising just how little BDSM and femdom practices have in common with actual DD or FLR relationships. On the surface, I am sure they look about identical, but the more you learn, the more you realize they are worlds apart.

      -ZM

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    7. Hi ZM. I agree, there is a surface level similarity between DD and BDSM/femdom, but the differences outnumber the similarities, at least on a qualitative level.

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    8. "it is surprising just how little BDSM and femdom practices have in common with actual DD or FLR relationships "

      This is really rather profound given the common confusion linking them.

      What they have in common is that both involve power dynamics. But BDSM seems to me to be elaborate role playing between a couple who may or may not be emotionally involved with each other. It also seems to rely extensively on costumes and props.
      DD relies of few or no props, isn’t role playing and involves people in a (usually close relationship). BDSM is “playing” at a power exchange while DD is living it.
      Alan

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    9. To add to Alan's good points, without generalizing, I've seen relationships called "BDSM" where the power exchange is a genuine reflection of the people involved, and "DD" couples that appear to be engaging in role play — sometimes they lead "normal" adult lives, but within the discipline dynamic, one partner becomes parental, and the other regresses to some degree. Beyond the labels, I see a distinction between two different kinds of dynamics. In one, a partner leads because they are inherently or sexually driven to being in control, and their partner is fulfilled by serving and being subservient. The other I recognize is not about domination and submission, but leadership for the purpose of pragmatic discipline. Either could be sexual or kink driven and, with either, ends can justify the means.

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    10. I've always seen the difference between BDSM and DD as centering on the ends, and also about the centrality of the kink element. It seems to me that with BDSM, the kink/erotic/sex element is really the end all and be all. The power exchange, spankings, punishments, rituals, etc. are all about the sexual response. With DD, at its center is some focus on discipline, behavior change and/or making one spouse accountable to the other for the messes they make. While it's undoubtedly erotic and kinky, that's almost a by-product and not the central goal. Though, if this blog has taught me anything, it's that the differentiating factors are points on a matrix-like spectrum, not some black-white, either-or, definitional thing.

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    11. Two small points. On consistency: My wife doesn't see my behavior as black and white. What may seem to be interrupting, may be my struggle to understand what she is saying. She likes to use pronouns with no obvious reference. I quickly loose track of the thread of what she is telling me. If I interrupt her to ask for clarification, should I be punished?

      The answer is: sometimes. That's her point with me. She will decide when I do something that deserves the paddle. Will it make my learning process more difficult? I don't think so. The key is that I have to gauge how I affect her. If I annoy her and go on anyway, then she will spank me. If I catch her mood and stop, she will probably let it go. It isn't so much that I "got away" with something. My behavior didn't bother her enough to punish me.

      The second point is that I think the difference between BDSM and DD is profound. In BDSM,the objective is to meet the bottom's needs.The top is performing a service. I topped for 20 years. What I did was to make my bottoms' wishes come true. I had fun, of course, but it was always within the boundaries of providing service to the bottom.

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    12. BDSM is a huge umbrella under which all sorts of things are possible. As you say, much of it has nothing to do with discipline. Dungeons and leather, bondage, feminization, and all the sadomasochistic stuff people bring into the marital bedroom that sometimes looks like punishment. With regard to discipline, I see the two, the kind that demands servitude, and the kind that demands acceptable behavior. It seems most of us here are not much interested in being servants or slaves to our wives. We see DD/FLR as wives managing and modifying behavior, not related to Dom/sub issues, through accountability in a traditional parent/guardian kind of way.

      Even when the discipline is genuine, to me, there's a world of difference between DD and D/s. It may be through the bias of what I read, but I find that DD/FLR relationships are more likely to be interested in having the relationship exposed to others, often friends or family, having them involved in some way, and/or having witnesses present for punishment. While exhibitionism and humiliation can be features of Dom/sub desires, it seems more prevalent with DD and with a different flavor attached to it. With regard to my feelings about it, the discipline of a servant is significantly different than the discipline of a partner, and it seems to be about the humility. Choosing to be subservient in order to cater to your spouse's needs and desires is nothing I would be too embarrassed about. Choosing to be managed like a child because, otherwise, I will fail to act responsibly is not something I want shared with the world, at least not outside my fantasies.

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    13. BDSM is a huge umbrella under which all sorts of things are possible. As you say, much of it has nothing to do with discipline. Dungeons and leather, bondage, feminization, and all the sadomasochistic stuff people bring into the marital bedroom that sometimes looks like punishment. With regard to discipline, I see the two, the kind that demands servitude, and the kind that demands acceptable behavior. It seems most of us here are not much interested in being servants or slaves to our wives. We see DD/FLR as wives managing and modifying behavior, not related to Dom/sub issues, through accountability in a traditional parent/guardian kind of way.

      Even when the discipline is genuine, to me, there's a world of difference between DD and D/s. It may be through the bias of what I read, but I find that DD/FLR relationships are more likely to be interested in having the relationship exposed to others, often friends or family, having them involved in some way, and/or having witnesses present for punishment. While exhibitionism and humiliation can be features of Dom/sub desires, it seems more prevalent with DD and with a different flavor attached to it. With regard to my feelings about it, the discipline of a servant is significantly different than the discipline of a partner, and it seems to be about the humility. Choosing to be subservient in order to cater to your spouse's needs and desires is nothing I would be too embarrassed about. Choosing to be managed like a child because, otherwise, I will fail to act responsibly is not something I want shared with the world, at least not outside my fantasies.

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  3. Hi Dan,
    The previous discussion about openness/ public shaming as a way to change behavior is an interesting one, albeit tricky in the context of DD. There isn’t much doubt that public exposure of both misbehavior and consequent punishments would work to modify behavior. For example -- if the next time I lose my temper, my wife made me walk around the neighborhood with a sign around my neck saying I was just spanked for losing my temper – it would be a long time before I ever lost my temper again. But how practical is that in the context of the real lives we have. The price of public exposure like that would far outweigh any positive effect it had.
    So when we talk about openness/shaming and any “public” punishment, realistically we are talking about perhaps a few people we confide in or family members aware of our relationships and not much beyond that Openness for me has been mainly being spanked twice by a former girlfriend in earshot at her best friend, and being spanked several times when my wife’s sister was present. In addition my former girlfriend told probably two other female friends that she spanked me and several people in my wife’s family are at least somewhat aware how our relationship works. We also have known two other DD couples. We don’t go to parties, no other women has spanked me (other than the former girlfriend) and my wife has not spanked anyone else since our marriage. So as openness goes among female led DD couples, this probably puts us into the “somewhat” open category.
    How shamed have I been by maybe a dozen people knowing I am spanked and how much has it modified my behavior? Honestly, not much at all on both counts. I am more proud of my wife than I am shamed by it. I will say I do try hard to avoid situations that might trigger an invitation from my wife to her sister and so my behavior has been impacted to that extent by the threat of a witness (that in microcosm is equivalent to walking around the neighborhood with a sign around my neck). And maybe if my wife used more witnesses and used them more often it would impact behavior more, but that doesn’t happen and is unlikely to ever happen.
    So being “somewhat” open hasn’t had a lot of impact on my behavior not have I really been shamed by it. But I think it has had a profound effect on some other things. It has helped me to fully acknowledge to myself that I am under my wife’s disciplinary authority and not just playing a kinky game. It’s real and making it public underscores that. It has increased her confidence and comfort level being a disciplinarian. She was originally a spankee and the openness has accelerated her transition to the disciplinarian role. It has also made me feel her power in a way I never did when it was completely hidden. It has also made me proud and even in awe of her taking charge while at the same time feeling pretty good about myself admitting I need discipline. It has also had a totally unexpected impact on my relationship with my sister in law. Before she witnessed a spanking she was not my biggest fan but since she has become a friend and an advocate and someone I genuinely like. That’s far from the disdain or disapproval that some expect from discovering your wife spanks you.
    All those benefits have come from the limited openness we have ventured. I wish we could be even more open. We have some very close friends who as far as I know are not spankos and we would love to share it with them in the same way you might share a great book (or great new recipe) with a friend just because they are a friend. But that’s not the world we live in yet.
    Summing Up: being “somewhat” open has been very positive for us but not in terms of modifying my behavior but positive for our DD relationship and to a more limited extent positive in terms of our relationship with some friends and family members
    Public punishments and shaming have occurred throughout historical times , but by my reading the primary purpose of them has been social control rather than personal behavior. .

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    1. Great post - but "unsigned". So, perhaps the author might want to add a reply. :)

      --al

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    2. Hi Alan. "For example -- if the next time I lose my temper, my wife made me walk around the neighborhood with a sign around my neck saying I was just spanked for losing my temper – it would be a long time before I ever lost my temper again. But how practical is that in the context of the real lives we have. The price of public exposure like that would far outweigh any positive effect it had." I agree in general, though the specific example might be extreme, and I do wonder whether with lesser but still significant kinds of shaming the positive effects might be worth the price? A more benign example might be the time my wife made me apologize to someone I had gone off on. While that didn't involve openness about spanking or DD, it was a kind of semi-public shaming. She could have just spanked me and left it at that. But, she forced me to endure the shame and embarrassment of apologizing to someone, specifically someone I really didn't like. That extra element of shaming took the punishment way beyond the level of a typical spanking.

      I agree with you that the primary purpose of public shaming and punishment probably was social control, but that also was kind of my point. We seem to be suffering the effects of a collective lack of shame in which everyone feels free to engage in pretty much any kind of conduct they want any time and any place, and it's playing out in ways like fights on airplanes and attacks on public employees. It has gotten so out of hand, I'm actually pretty glad that modern smart phone cameras and ready distribution methods like Youtube and Facebook may be injecting some limited amount of public shaming back into our society.

      Do you have any sense of why your sister-in-law be came and advocate and friend after seeing you spanked?

      Like you, I do have some friends I do wish I could share DD with, mainly because I have a couple of friends who probably could benefit from it.

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    3. This is the second time I've done this in a week . Sorry
      Alan

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    4. Dan,
      “Do you have any sense of why your sister-in-law became ... (your)… advocate and friend after seeing you spanked?” Not directly but my wife anticipated it. There was at least one other witness available but she wanted N to see me (or be around me) after I had been spanked. According to my wife, N saw me as arrogant and overbearing (hard to believe, isn’t it) and my wife wanted her to see another side. I don’t think the change was that simple but there was a big change.
      Btw, I agree with you about the rising bad public behavior/rudeness but think it is part of the political zeitgeist we have stumbled into. I am not sure that public shaming or other traditional social norms is going to change it much
      Alan

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    5. al here -

      Alan - I was about 90% sure that was your post - based on style and context - but wasn't completely sure so was curious to know (obviously no criticism intended) I note that Dan was (not unexpectedly) completely sure, however. I also post anonymously - and I have done the same thing a few times as well - easy to do.

      Although - one of my major panic attacks came when I forgot to change the "reply as" box to "anonymous". Very fortunately - Google asked me if I was sure that I wanted to publish that post under my personal account name. However, I don't assume that will always be the case - diligence required....

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    6. " diligence required...." and probably a new pair of glasses as well.
      P.S. - I am keeping a list of the good things Google does and its a very short list, so I will add your experience to it.
      Alan

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    7. Hi Alan,
      My wife and I are in the completely closed category with regards to others knowing, or at least almost completely closed, since we have alluded to it to a few, but mostly in a lighthearted manner that was probably taken as joking or fantasy play.

      But this whole openness thing keeps rolling around in my mind nonstop. I think the level of openness that I would like to experience is quite a bit like the "somewhat" open that you describe. I don't see us making it truly public ever, nor do I think there would be any real value in doing so. Rather just one or several close people.

      And as Dan said "making a past or current punishment public makes it seem, somehow, more real and—maybe surprisingly—less erotically motivated." - This resonates hard with me, and it ties into discussions we have had many times before. You described it as almost an actualization process. Sure, I am a spanked husband, but if I am spanked in front of someone else, even though the reality of it didn't change (since I am just as much of a spanked husband now as I would be then), my perception of the reality of the whole thing sure will.

      By the way, one of the most interesting things I have noticed is that we have had openness as a theme or at least a subtheme for quite a bit of the last year. It keeps coming back. Yet even so, we keep finding new angles on it, like last week it was kind of how it might affect the witnessing party. It makes we think we could take almost any topic, like tears, and go for a lot longer than you would expect before running out of new insights.

      -ZM

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    8. Openness and "others" (knowing, watching, participating) do seem to garner more than their share of interest. Which is kind of ironic given the length most of the commenters (including me) go to in order to avoid saying or doing anything that put their anonymity at risk or out themselves in any way.

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  4. Danielle here:

    Dan wrote: >>>For me, I think it’s not just the public nature of a spanking by someone else, or witnessed by someone else, that makes it particularly gut wrenching. It’s also about inevitability. That has always been a really big part of the mystique of corporal punishment for me. If Anne sent me to be spanked by another woman (or man), I would know on the trip there that it was actually going to happen, period. Something about that kind of inevitability – knowing that I can’t and won’t be able to avoid it -- causes a really powerful reaction in me. Somehow, making it public that a spanking or grounding will happen makes it seem more inevitable, and making a past or current punishment public makes it seem, somehow, more real and—maybe surprisingly—less erotically motivated.<<<

    That’s an interesting perspective, Dan. I guess Wayne must have felt something like that when I told him that I was going to spank him in front of Barb. He had to wait for a while for it to happen after I told him, but he knew it was going to happen. In fact, I think he and I both knew it was going to happen as soon as I revealed the nature of our FLR to Barb, even though I didn’t immediately ask Barb if she was interested in seeing a spanking. The anticipation was exciting for me, so I can only imagine how nervous and excited Wayne must have felt.

    I enjoyed spanking Wayne in front of Barb, but I’m not sure I would ever send him to another woman to be spanked. I was angry when I found out that he had gone to a professional spanker because it felt like he had cheated on me, although I believe him that there was no sex involved. You can say that a spanking is just a spanking, but I would feel as though I was sending my husband to an erotic encounter with another woman because I know how erotic spanking is to him. Now, I suppose that if we were younger and we were close friends with another couple with an FLR like ours, I might have found it sexy and fun to spank one another’s husbands. Especially if my friend’s husband had a sexy bum! Lol. But I can’t see spanking another woman’s husband, and having her spank mine, as a purely disciplinary thing.

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    1. Hi Danielle. I get it. A spanking could be just a spanking but, let's face it, that's not how it works for most of us who are into this. Most of them, or at least the DD practice as a whole, has an erotic element. For me though, I don't really know how erotic I would find seeing a pro. My guess is, not very much. It's just too transactional, and it doesn't really push any of my buttons around non-consent, boundaries, etc. Obviously correct me if I'm wrong about this, but isn't the "cheating" element in what Wayne did not so much that he was spanked by another woman, but that he initiated that and did so behind your back?

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    2. Hi Danielle,
      The description you gave when you first wrote about Barb witnessing a spanking was just amazing. As I read it, I completely pictured the scene and imagined the feelings of all the parties involved. I can only imagine the thoughts going through Wayne's head once he learned that it was going to happen, especially since it wasn't immediate.

      Regarding the professional, I am with Dan. I think to me it would just have about no meaning whatsoever, but maybe I am wrong about that. I am sure that a professional could deliver a sound spanking, but I think much of the feeling of chastisement comes from knowing that I disappointed my wife. And the whole feeling at least somewhat imposed goes totally out the window if I am paying someone to do it after I schedule an appointment with them! At least if my wife sent me to one of her friends or someone to be punished, it would feel imposed, probably even more so than when she does it herself.

      But in the end, when it comes to her sending me to someone else, it is a super compelling thought because I can easily envision what I would be feeling as I walked up to their door, but I really can't see why it would ever happen, and it would be super awkward, to say the least. Still, it is interesting to think about.

      -ZM

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    3. "And the whole feeling at least somewhat imposed goes totally out the window if I am paying someone to do it after I schedule an appointment with them!" - Exactly!

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    4. Dan wrote: >>>Obviously correct me if I'm wrong about this, but isn't the "cheating" element in what Wayne did not so much that he was spanked by another woman, but that he initiated that and did so behind your back?<<<

      You are right that I considered it cheating because he did it behind my back. But it wasn’t just the sneakiness that made it feel like cheating to me. Although I spank my husband mainly for disciplinary reasons, I have always felt that disciplining him is sexually intimate. Therefore, it angered me to think of him paying another woman to take my place in that role. This may seem silly, but it especially bothered me that she spanked him over her knee because of the physical intimacy of that position.

      For the same reason, I don’t think I could ever see spanking another woman’s husband, or asking another woman to spank mine, as purely disciplinary. I would feel like we were doing something kinky. “Not that there’s anything wrong with that,” to quote Seinfeld. I’m not able to think of DD as non sexual, though I understand that some people do. I also feel that involving witnesses heightens the kink factor in DD. When Barb agreed to watch me spank Wayne, we had an explicit understanding that we were going to do something “naughty”. In fact, Barb acknowledged that the “naughtiness” of it was part of her reason for wanting to participate.

      Danielle

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    5. ZM wrote: >>>Regarding the professional, I am with Dan. I think to me it would just have about no meaning whatsoever, but maybe I am wrong about that. I am sure that a professional could deliver a sound spanking, but I think much of the feeling of chastisement comes from knowing that I disappointed my wife. And the whole feeling at least somewhat imposed goes totally out the window if I am paying someone to do it after I schedule an appointment with them! At least if my wife sent me to one of her friends or someone to be punished, it would feel imposed, probably even more so than when she does it herself.<<<

      From a logical point of view, why should paying a professional spanker be ineffective? Wouldn’t you expect her to be better than an amateur, the way a massage therapist gives a better massage than an amateur? The pro spanker Wayne saw “punished” him for fictional misbehavior in a role play scenario. But he says he felt truly punished. She told him that some of her clients want to role play fantasies, but that many of them come to her for real discipline related to circumstances in their lives. Isn’t that the kind of discipline Dan talks about, being held to account for failures to live up to real life goals they set for themselves, like trying to quit smoking, or sticking to a diet or exercise plan, or meeting a professional objective? From what I have read here, in some DD couples the wives spank based on their husbands’ reports of their own failings. That means the husbands are essentially asking to be spanked. Why would paying a professional to spank you based on self reporting be that much different? I don’t mean to argue for or against professional disciplinarians. I’m just curious why you don’t think discipline by a professional would be satisfying. Is it because her dispassionate professionalism would make it less sexy? Is it, in fact, analogous to paying for sex?
      Danielle

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    6. I wouldn't expect a "professional" spanker to be better than an "amateur," because I'm not sure exactly would would distinguish the two in the spanking context.

      "The pro spanker Wayne saw “punished” him for fictional misbehavior in a role play scenario. But he says he felt truly punished." I'm pretty sure that wouldn't work for me at all. I'm not into role play at all, so that would be a problem. More importantly, a spanking for fictional behavior would be missing the authenticity element that for me is critical to the whole DD dynamic. Maybe the distinction between what worked for Wayne and what really wouldn't for me is one of the key differences between a spanking itself as a fetish versus spanking that either isn't really a fetish or that is so only in combination with something else.

      "She told him that some of her clients want to role play fantasies, but that many of them come to her for real discipline related to circumstances in their lives. Isn’t that the kind of discipline Dan talks about, being held to account for failures to live up to real life goals they set for themselves, like trying to quit smoking, or sticking to a diet or exercise plan, or meeting a professional objective?" I do think the motivation could be the same, and if the discipline was real punishment for a real offense, I think it very well could serve a purpose for me. But, I also don't find anything about that scenario very sexy or stimulating, certainly not the way real DD (remember, the first "d" stands for "domestic") was for me from the moment I discovered. I don't know why one has a strong erotic component for me but the other doesn't; all I can say is that the pro option does zip for me. I agree with you that asking to be spanked does involve a level of control, but I think many of us would say (and have said here) that we really kind of wish that level of control was less present. It's the whole consensual non-consent thing. On some level, the consent is always there, but that doesn't mean some of us don't wish it wasn't. With a pro, there is very little of it that the client would not be controlling, from the scenario to potentially tapping out with a "safe word."

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    7. The kind of pro disciplinarian that intrigues me doesn't allow safe words, anything overtly sexual, or following scripts, and has also demonstrated that they are a sincere discipline devotee, truly believing in spanking as effective punishment. Despite the transactional nature of the relationship, some pros apparently do get involved on a deeply personal level, but not romantically. Crimes of the past or present can be addressed, and future behavior can be influenced. So, all-in-all, a pro session can be legitimate punishment no less than asking my wife to do it.

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    8. I think a genuinely consultive and educational session with my wife, me and a professional could be interesting.

      Typical "disciplinarian" advertisements are obviously sexual and to me, visiting one alone seems sexual or at least intimate. It's hugely appealing to men to have access to a woman who will do exactly what they crave enthusiastically and perfectly. Whether it's a punishment spanking or a deep blow job, the wife who is willing but not an expert is going to feel betrayed if her husband seeks it outside the marriage secretly.

      A smart husband won't risk his marriage over a professional spanking and will play the long game by getting to where his wife spanks him more often, more intensely and more intimately and lovingly than any professional could!

      Just my opinion and reflection on my own brain, of course.

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  5. Hi Dan,
    I agree that last week’s conversation was good. I like it when there is some interactivity and when the conversation just sort of meanders along. Also it is more sustainable for you, since you don’t have to put quite as much time thinking of a topic or writing a lot about it. Just grab something that caught your eye the previous week and put it out there and see where everyone takes it.

    “ZM and I both seem to be quite attracted to school punishments, even though (and perhaps because) we were more bystanders than participants.” - I too have wondered if I might be less fascinated by school punishments had I actually received them.

    On public shaming, I am kind of on the fence. On the one hand, everyone seems pretty shameless these days, but on the other hand, I don’t particularly like it when people call out strangers on things. I feel like maybe the balance needs to be that people are called out when necessary, but that it happens within the context of relationship, so it is the people who are close to someone who are calling them out.

    “I think for me personally, it would be hard for both male and female friends to know about both spanking and grounding. I suspect that knowing that Anne would, or even might, tell others about a particular punishment would give me a very big added incentive to behave. And, it wouldn’t even have to be people we were very close to.” - I agree about the big added incentive to behave. And no, it wouldn’t even have to be people that you are very close too. The reason I said that it might be easier to tell guys about grounding is merely because they might just think of it as being more semantics. If you didn’t use the term “grounded” it would all sound pretty normal. For example: “I can’t go this weekend. My wife is kind of pissed off about some things that I didn’t get done last weekend, and so I need to stay home this weekend.” This would sound pretty tame, so if I said I was “grounded,” I think guys might think I was making a joke about being in trouble with my wife so needing to stay home, not that I was actually forbidden to go.

    “Al talked a bit this week about being spanked by others, and Tomy has talked a bit about times when Aunt Kay sent him to another woman to be spanked or other women sent their husbands to Aunt Kay for a session. I admit that something about those stories turn me on, but they also really do scare the hell out of me.” - I would be scared too, and for a bunch of reasons. Obviously the embarrassment factor would be through the roof, plus maybe she has a different understanding of just how bad the offense was or wasn’t, plus she doesn’t love me like my wife does, plus I don’t know how hard she might be capable of spanking, etc. Yet still (or maybe because of all this) the thought is intriguing.

    “Something about that kind of inevitability – knowing that I can’t and won’t be able to avoid it -- causes a really powerful reaction in me. Somehow, making it public that a spanking or grounding will happen makes it seem more inevitable, and making a past or current punishment public makes it seem, somehow, more real and—maybe surprisingly—less erotically motivated.” - Exactly right. I think this is a big part (especially the more real and less erotic part) is what drives my fascination with others knowing. BTW, I think the idea of inevitable consequences following actions is part of what made the whole NXIVM thing so interesting.

    “There was a strange sense of peace or freedom in being in a situation in which I had little control, particularly control when it came to quitting.” - I think this is pretty well what I feel about the whole DD thing. Sometimes I want control to be out of my hands, so failure is not an option.

    -ZM

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    1. "BTW, I think the idea of inevitable consequences following actions is part of what made the whole NXIVM thing so interesting." - Exactly. There was something so compelling about a system in which consequences for failure were really hard-wired into the whole program, in a way that meant you really had to meet your commitments, or else.

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  6. I understand what Danielle and others are noting about the inherent sexuality in spanking and how sending a husband to another woman would inevitably have sexual overtones. Maybe that is so and I have absolutely no experience in this area. But I got the impression from Tomy’s comments that there was pure discipline involved when Aunt Kay sent him on a trip or when she disciplined someone else’s naughty husband. I think the “inevitable” sexuality involved in spanking is due in part to the sexuality that usually exists between a couple in a DD relationship. But I can imagine a woman not sexually involved with a man administering a completely non-sexual spanking. I suspect the “pros” do a lot of that. Just some thoughts
    Alan

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    1. Alan wrote: >>> But I can imagine a woman not sexually involved with a man administering a completely non-sexual spanking. I suspect the “pros” do a lot of that. Just some thoughts.<<<

      I can’t imagine feeling that spanking a grown man WASN’T engaging in a sex act. I may be different than lots of other women, but that’s the way I feel. I CAN imagine enjoying it under some circumstances. Either it would feel sexy or it would feel yucky to me, depending on my relationship to the guy and the situation. I wonder whether it is completely non-sexual for professionals. I have a feeling that most women who spank for money probably got into it because they were into BDSM, so they decided to make some money by doing something they enjoy. I believe that professional disciplinarians don’t like to think of themselves as sex workers. But my husband paid about 3 times more for a one hour spanking session than he would have paid for an hour of massage therapy. In other words, “professional disciplinarians” seem to charge sex worker rates.
      Danielle

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    2. Hi Danielle and Alan,
      I think that it might depend on who's perspective you look it it from. I think it is pretty clear that from the guy's perspective it is at least somewhat tied up in the sexuality of the thing. Otherwise, there would be no reason to pay someone to beat you, unless you are a serious masochist who loves pain.

      For the professional, obviously she knows that it is sexual - at least in some way - for the person buying her services. That should be obvious from how she advertises, and in the case of mistresses, how she dresses. But that doesn't mean that the act is in any way sexual to her. I expect that at least in some cases it is sexual for her, and she chooses to make money doing something she happens to find exciting. However, I also think it likely that there are some who do it merely because it is a great way to make lots of money quickly - and in most places legally - WITHOUT doing anything overtly sexual. And then probably most are somewhere in between.

      I think this ties into what I was saying last week. I really like the thought of there being a witness or someone who knows about it who will at the very least see the reality of it, even if still mostly see it through the lens of whatever inherent sexuality there is in it. I just missed out on it at the point that it would have been entirely non-sexual on the giving side, even if it might have been sexual on the receiving side.

      I really think this begs the question though of what exactly is sexual. If it is sexual for him, does that automatically is for her? If a nurse sees me naked, is it sexual? What if she is secretly turned on by it (though that is pretty unlikely considering I don't have that great of a body? What if I have a medical fetish or a thing for nurses? Is it possible that it can be clinical for her and still sexual for me? If she knows it is a bit of a turn on to me, can it still remain clinical for her? And if she can still view it as non-sexual, even knowing it is at least somewhat stimulating for me, then couldn't the same thing apply to a professional spanking me?

      Anyway, just some thoughts, all of which don't matter to me anyway...

      -ZM

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  7. I enjoy the tension, sometimes conflict, between inevitability, surprise and agreement in these relationships. While we sometimes talk about eroticism vs. pure discipline I wonder if eroticism is generated by the pulls of those three attributes. Each aspect of the relationship can cause those desired-yet-dreaded butterfly feelings.

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    1. MW, you're right that there is some potential conflict between some of these things we want and value in DD relationships. Another one for me is anticipation vs. immediacy. On the one hand, I think immediacy probably works best as a deterrent. On the other hand, I think sometimes it's more effective to let me stew for a day or so and wonder when it's coming.

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    2. My wife is a big believer in letting me 'stew' before carrying out a spanking.
      It is usually days , sometimes weeks and , even worse, sometimes she foregoes the spanking altogether.
      The result is she keeps me 'stewing' in anticipation that a spanking is imminent but then you realize it is not going to happen.
      A key to stewing is that she must keep the pot 'simmering'by reminding me that she hasn't forgotten.
      If I try 'topping from the bottom' by reminding her in my angst to just get it over she nonchalantly tells me it will happen when she is good and ready !

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  8. This is a bit off topic. But I just wanted to express how much reading this blog has taught me why disciplinary spanking actually works. For many years I have thought of myself as a spanko meaning that being spanked by a woman I care for was intensely erotic – both in reality and in fantasy. Now I realize it isn’t the spanking at all, but the exercise of female authority in a disciplinary context that is so erotic. The spanking itself isn’t even a little bit erotic when it is happening and really is punishment to be accepted when ordered but to be avoided if possible. Those two dynamics together – the eroticism of female authority and the punitive efficacy of actual spanking is what makes female led DD such a win win experience. As a guy I get a huge rush from it while at the same time my wife can manage my behavior when she wants to. And the cherry on top is that some (maybe many) women who do administer spankings in a loving relationship come to experience some of its eroticism themselves.
    Alan

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    1. "Now I realize it isn’t the spanking at all, but the exercise of female authority in a disciplinary context that is so erotic." I agree, for me it isn't erotic unless it's "real" and it isn't real unless there is real authority and real accountability. If those elements aren't there, then spanking and punishment do little or nothing for me erotically.

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    2. My fetish has always been spanking, but within a particular context. Punishment is the meat and potatoes, strong female authority and the ingredients of spanking is the spice. Take spanking out of the recipe, and the flavor is too bland to get me excited.

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    3. Hi Alan,
      Your comment reflects exactly how I feel about DD, but is more concise and profound than I would hope to achieve. Many other posts resonate with me on individual topics, such as Danielle's excellent post describing how they involved her friend Barb as a witness which vividly brought the whole witness thing to life in my mind, but few capture the overall essence of DD nearly as well as this one did.

      "This is a bit off topic." Hardly! Considering this blog's theme, I don't think this post even COULD be off topic, regardless of what the topic is. This is the only phrase of your post that I couldn't exactly agree with, since I think you were perfectly on topic!

      "But I just wanted to express how much reading this blog has taught me why disciplinary spanking actually works." - Ditto. I too have learned and continue to learn so much here. For the first time, I am understanding this lifetime fascination and craving for discipline.

      "For many years I have thought of myself as a spanko meaning that being spanked by a woman I care for was intensely erotic – both in reality and in fantasy." - Me too. I remember when I first "discovered" spanking in an erotic context, while reading a penthouse variations. Before that, I had no idea it existed. I remember the story, and I remember how I suddenly realized that I had always had a morbid fascination with spanking in any context. It was like it all became clear to me right then and there, and yet at the same time I spent the next 35 years thinking about it and wanting it, without even realizing what I really wanted. All I knew was that what I wanted was different than the whole "whips and chains" thing. But having been in a DD relationship for the past 5 1/2 years, and being here pretty much all of that time, I finally understand this thing that has followed me for a lifetime.

      "Now I realize it isn’t the spanking at all, but the exercise of female authority in a disciplinary context that is so erotic." - This! Exactly! Though admittedly the THOUGHT of spanking is erotic for me, so I am still a spanko in that way.

      "The spanking itself isn’t even a little bit erotic when it is happening and really is punishment to be accepted when ordered but to be avoided if possible." - This is the biggest paradox for me, considering how exciting the thought of spanking is to me.

      "Those two dynamics together – the eroticism of female authority and the punitive efficacy of actual spanking is what makes female led DD such a win win experience." - I don't think this applies to all people, since some don't find the female authority all that erotic, and others actually enjoy being spanked, and in both those cases DD can still be effective. But if you both find female authority erotic AND you at the same time don't find actual spankings to be erotic, and even try hard to avoid them, that is where DD becomes just unbeatable!

      "As a guy I get a huge rush from it while at the same time my wife can manage my behavior when she wants to." - What could be more "win win?"

      "And the cherry on top is that some (maybe many) women who do administer spankings in a loving relationship come to experience some of its eroticism themselves." - This is what has happened for my wife. It is like I won the lottery!

      Thanks for a great post, Alan!

      -ZM

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    4. Sorry for the delay in this comment posting. I just figured out this morning that Blogger has sent several comments to the spam folder, without giving any indication it had done so. Sorry about that.

      "I remember when I first "discovered" spanking in an erotic context, while reading a penthouse variations. Before that, I had no idea it existed." That's almost certainly where I first discovered erotic spanking, though I don't remember any specific story. The first cultural reference I specifically recall was an episode of HBO's Real Sex that included a segment on adult spanking. That one did turn me on, though not out of scale in comparison to some other kink and non-kink sexual content. It was really only with the DWC and its combination of, as you say, spanking in the context of wifely authority, that the whole thing hit me with full force.

      FWIW, I get what both you and Alan mean about the blog teaching about this all works, and I don't mean that *I* am the one doing the teaching. There are many times that I gain more insight into some issue by writing about it, or some comment triggers something that really resonates for me but that I hadn't thought of before.

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  9. Both my bosses at work know my wife spanks me and the lady boss also informs my wife, via a phone call or text, when she thinks I need a good paddling. If I blow up at work I know I'm going to loose my pants and underpants and be bent over for 100 or more blows from my wifes favourite Tasmanian oak paddle. I'm then made to apologise the next day. Once I was told to say what happened to me and during my apology and if I didn't she would tell them and I'd get another dose of the paddle, (this was to my boss and my wife checked up with her to see if I did what I was told). No one else seems to know, but life is an adventure.

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  10. Regarding professionals, the conversations have mostly been about men seeing one alone either by sneaking out or being sent by his wife. There is another alternative: a couple can jointly visit a pro. Bear with me for a couple minutes!

    When I was young, I sometimes took a female fiend with me to visit a pro. Those were generally for a fun, sexy experience. On one occasion, however, my friend said (after we were already there) that she was mad at me because of something I’d done a couple weeks earlier and said that she would like this to be a real disciplinary session. I was quite taken aback, but she was insistent and got me to admit that I’d been out-of-line.
    I acknowledged that she was correct but suggested we deal with that privately at home. At this point, the pro chimed it that this would be a very good place to address the issue and that she would very much enjoy providing that service.

    I relented and agreed, knowing that I was in safe hands and wouldn’t be too damaged. The pro knew me well, and she administered a very thorough threshing that brought me as close to tears as I’ve ever been. She didn’t exceed rational limits, but it’s certainly the hardest I’ve experienced. It didn’t end until both my friend and she agreed the debt had been paid.

    I can assure you that this session, unlike most, was completely asexual, although the making up that my friend and I didn’t later that night was memorable.

    In the context of a DD couple, this approach could be effective under various circumstances including (i) a situation where the wife believes her misbehaved husband deserves a bit more than she feels comfortable dishing out, (ii) when she wants him to feel the immense embarrassment of a semi-public whipping or (iii) just out of curiosity.

    I realize that this will be a minority position, but this website casts a broad umbrella. And, who knows, you may really enjoy it!

    Best regards, Graham

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    1. It's hard for me to know whether it's a minority position. Although some of us said we didn't think going to a pro is anything we would be interested in and/or that it wouldn't be erotic, I suppose that could change if our wives were still participants and were there when it happened.

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  11. For me, I think (but of course don't know) the experience of going to a pro would be entirely different if my wife either sent me to one or went with me, compared to me going by my own choosing. If my wife went with me or compelled me to go, suddenly it wouldn't matter much that the pro was just doing this for money, because it is my wife that decided I must be punished, and she can either do it herself or outsource it.

    In the same way, I wouldn't want to be spanked by anyone other than my wife, including or perhaps especially non-professionals like one of my wife's friends, sister, or something like that. But if my wife caused that to happen, it would be ok (though still very scary).

    Thinking about this just reinforces in my mind that for me it is not so much about the spanking as it is about the authority.

    -ZM

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