Power is given only to him who dares to stoop and take it ... one must have the courage to dare.” ― Fyodor Dostoevsky, Crime and Punishment
Hello all. Welcome back to the Disciplinary Couple’s Club. Our weekly gathering of men and women who are in, or would like to be in, Domestic Discipline relationships. I hope you all had a great week.
Mine was pretty sedate compared to the preceding week. Of course, that one had both set a high bar and required some significant recovery time. One thing did happen this week, however, that illustrates some points we talked about last time.
Last week, I talked about a little solo adventure I went on earlier in the week, Something I didn’t talk about was a text I got from my wife the night before. As background, I had been in a little bit of a hurry the morning before my adventure, packing up and generally getting ready to take off to where I would be staying overnight. In the process, I forgot to lock the front door to our house. I took the dogs with me, but failed to shut the dog door to our backyard as well. My wife had a work event that evening, so she came home to a dark house, with two unlocked points of potential entry, and no dogs around to guard the place. She was furious and sent me a text saying she would be spanking me as soon as I got home from my adventure.
Now, she and I look at these home security issues from very different perspectives. She sees her reaction as a matter of carefulness and prudence. I see her caution about personal security as borderline paranoia. Yet, given that she is the one wielding the paddle in our relationship, and having a virtually unlimited charter to do so for whatever offenses she chooses, in the end her view is the only one that really matters.
True to her word, shortly after I got home, she took down my pants, took me over her knee, and gave me a long, hard spanking with her new favorite bath brush, after lecturing me about locking the door whenever I leave the house.
This was a concrete example of the difference between a rules-based approach to DD and a relationship-based approach. We’ve never really had a rule about locking doors or home security. So, it is not true that I consented in advance to that particular offense being “spankable.” Rather, from the beginning I’ve been clear that from my perspective, she has the authority to use her judgment and to, in effect, create rules on the fly.
It also illustrates an area in which I disagreed a bit with something in this comment from Danielle:
In the case of my husband, the fantasy is more than a tool. I don’t think DD would work with him in the absence of the fantasy. He accepts discipline that is “completely genuine and real” because he has a craving for the fantasy to BE real. I see the kind of DD that Dan talks about as quite different. If a man asks his wife to spank him in order to reach behavioral objectives he sets for himself, he isn’t “submitting” to discipline the same way my husband does. It’s more like self-discipline with the help of his wife. It seems to me that Dan’s concept of DD shouldn’t be that embarrassing if properly understood. But maybe some people would have difficulty understanding why spanking, which seems inherently humiliating, would be the preferred form of discipline if there is no sexual thrill involved.
My quibble with the quote was only to the extent it implied that my interest in DD is only about my own self-improvement goals and remedying my self-identified failures. Yes, it is about that, but from the beginning she’s had a much wider charter. She just hasn’t really chosen to use it much before now. From the very beginning, I saw DD as addressing some recurring issues with my behavior, but also about equalizing power balance by empowering her and disempowering me. It’s true that the main driver for me at first was probably around the idea of being held accountable, with real punishment for real offenses. But, I didn’t give a lot of thought to who defined the offenses and that I might be held accountable for an offense that I didn’t really agree merited punishment. It wasn’t that I thought our arrangement wouldn’t include those kinds of ad hoc rules that she determined on her own. Rather, things just kind of moved in a direction in which the things that got punished were things we both had agreed were problems.
Yet, I wonder now whether the idea of being punished for things I did not see as problems or priorities was always part of the attraction. Over the years, when I thought about the Disciplinary Wives Club and how it inspired me, I did tend to think about it in terms of rules and punishments and accountability, but no so much as about role definitions and gender-based power structures. Yet, when I looked back at some of the stories on it a few weeks ago, a significant number of them do have a very FLR-like vibe. In fact, the first two stories in the Fiction Stories section have some very FLR-heavy themes. In those two related stories, the wife imposes the disciplinary relationship on her husband. His first spanking comes after his wife decides to spank him for leering at a friend’s legs. He isn’t given any choice (or not much of one beyond passive submission to her decision) about accepting the new form of relationship; he doesn’t play any role in deciding whether his conduct was punishable, and it’s clear he won’t be given much of one in the future; and, part of her authority includes letting him be spanked by other women if she so chooses. A few excerpts:
[From “Pretty Legs I and II” stories]
“Lowering
myself across my wife's lap is one of the most difficult things I have ever
done, especially since I knew that this would be the first of many spankings
and that as of that evening, our relationship would be completely changed. After I was over her knee, she began:’As I
said before, I shall discipline you whenever and however I choose; when
decisions are to be made, discussion will be permitted, but once I say that the
discussion is over, you will be very well advised not to try to continue it. Do
you understand?’ I heard myself saying, ‘Yes, honey’ and was told that during
my punishment sessions I was to address her as ‘Ma'am. ‘Yes, Ma’am' I said.”
[After his first spanking was over, his wife had a phone call with the friend he had leered at, who had been the one to recommend spanking for discipline]
“Oh, and in case you didn't hear my discussion with Glenda on the phone; when we go over there tomorrow evening for you to apologize, if she wishes to spank you too, you had better not object and embarrass me. As a DWC woman, and my friend, if she wants to punish you, she has my blessing. On the way to the bedroom Becky said "I told you your life was going to change, and after tonight there are going to be a lot of changes. Honey, believe me this will be good for both of us and it will make our great relationship even stronger.”
[As she is taking him to see the friend who he had leered at, a few days after his first spanking . . .]
We walked out to the car and Becky surprised me by walking to the driver's side. She waited with a frown on her face until it dawned on me that I had better open her door for her. Without a word, I went to the passenger's side. Becky smiled, ‘You learn very quickly, dear. From now on I shall do the driving and you will sit right where you are. I'm glad to see you are adjusting to seeing me as the boss, and as your disciplinarian. You do see it that way, don't you?’ Her clear blue eyes showed steely resolve. My mouth was dry as I replied ‘Yeah, Becky, you are the boss in our home.’ She chuckled, ‘And?' she asked. For an instant I did not know what she wanted, then I said, "And that is the way it should be." She raised an eyebrow, and I added, ‘And that is the way I want it.’ She put the car in gear as she said, ‘That's a good boy. When we get to Glenda's house she is going to punish you and I want you to cooperate well. Remember, whatever she decides to do, she has my blessing.’”
Now, in real life, there are a lot of elements that, if conveyed by a new commenter here, would make me call “likely bullshit” on the story, including: (a) the wife initiating the DD relationship; (b) the wife moving quickly into the Head of Household status with little experience or learning process; and (c) the all-too-easy and cavalier bringing of others into the relationship. Whenever a new commenter here starts telling tales that sound a lot like the above, my first reaction is there is a 99% chance they are full of shit. But, like I said, on the DWC website the story is plainly labeled as fictional. And, while I prefer other stories there like Even More, because I think they are more true to life, the fact is that many of the stories involve a bilateral process in which the husband is humbled and disempowered, while the woman discovers a previously unknown, or at least unrevealed, penchant for leadership.
The first night I told Anne about finding the DWC website, I specifically told her that I envisioned DD as a way of her gaining confidence and exploring her own power. Over the years, I think that did happen to a significant extent, but it’s really been only over the last year or so that it really seems to be taking on a life of its own. Her punishing me last week for something that was an issue to her and not to me, is only one reflection of her moves in that direction, but it is a significant one and an instance of her really exploring her power and authority.
Have a great week.
Really interesting discussions over the past couple of weeks and in the mode of just commenting almost randomly here goes...
ReplyDeleteFor me the whole DD thing is based 100% on consent, either in a general sense 'I give you authority to spank me whenever and for whatever you decide' or against specific rules. So, all those stories that start with the lady taking non-consensual control just don't feel right in reality although as fiction I admit to being just a bit turned on by them!
Rightly or wrongly, I am uncomfortable with any kind of physical discipline of minors (even though I was extensively subjected to the strap at school) and I have never disciplined my children that way. Equally I am uncomfortable with M/F discipline as it feels like there is much potential for abuse and yes, I know that potentially comes across as sexist.
Spanking has been erotic for me since I knew what erotic felt like. So, I had that confusion of being painfully punished at school with absolutely no pleasure whilst having recurring fantasies of either being spanked or spanking. Fast forward many years and that quite general fascination was crystalised into an ‘ah, ha!’ type realisation by reading the DWC site. Naively I had never considered or come across corporal punishment in a F/M DD concept and I was surprised by how open, willing to learn and comfortable my wife became with this new dynamic! Our DD is 100% consent based in a general sense and is primarily focussed on respect, rudeness, and moods – she often just knows when it would be good for both of us but mainly for me. She will often let me ‘stew’ as a couple of commentators have mentioned and that does create quite a ‘frisson’ until the inevitable happens.
I tend disagree that the spanking itself is not erotic in some strange way. Even though it is disciplinary and is often very painful the pain caused by cane or strap on the buttocks is very different from any other pain and yes, it really hurts but yes, I get quite a sexual charge from it. How many of us crave sex afterwards? But I don’t claim to understand why I need but don’t want it, why I still fantasise about receiving spanking but will do my best to avoid, even (mostly) behaving better!
All I do know is that we are both grateful to have discovered the magic of DD!
TB
Hi TB. "I am uncomfortable with M/F discipline as it feels like there is much potential for abuse and yes, I know that potentially comes across as sexist." I struggle with that too, though I think the key word is "potentially." I don't doubt that some F/M dynamics can turn abusive or even involve coercion, yet I don't think many could involve coercion on the basis of physical abuse or threat. I'm not saying it couldn't happen, but the potential seems to me to be much lower. Twenty years ago, I would have said that economic coercion wasn't a big threat either, though the potential might have changed over the years, with more men forsaking careers and staying home with kids. Bottom line, of course, is if you are so submissive or conflict-averse that you have a hard time establishing self-protective boundaries, or if you don't trust your partner's judgment or emotional stability, then you shouldn't get into a power-exchange relationship, period.
Delete"Naively I had never considered or come across corporal punishment in a F/M DD concept and I was surprised by how open, willing to learn and comfortable my wife became with this new dynamic!" Same here.
Hi TB,
DeleteThis just doesn’t happen to me during a spanking and I am curious what you are experiencing. The concept of being spanked (all my spankings are punishment spankings. I don’t think I have ever had what I imagine to be an “erotic” spanking, although a former girlfriend used to “warm me up” with a hand spanking which wasn’t much pain). But even the immediate prospect of a real one happening can be exciting. And a while afterward I can remember a spanking with erotic pleasure. But with a punishment spanking sometime after the first three or four cracks, that is all gone and its real punishment from there on. So I think my question is whether there is eroticism for you beyond that. Another related question is how spankings modify your behavior if it is erotic (“try to avoid them”). I am not at all challenging your description of what happens to you. But I would love to understand it better. A part of me would like to hold on the effectiveness of spanking while at the same time deriving some erotic effect from being spanked
Thanks
Alan
Agreed. I was never comfortable with the idea of M/F discipline either. I am struggling to think exactly why I take this view. Maybe it is the implicit expectation that the husband is first to undergo hardship to restore harmony? Maybe it is the general situation of men's bodies being, on average, stronger and more able to take physical hardship? I know Singapore has a males-only policy when it comes to corporal punishment administered in schools and by the state on convicts.
DeleteIt was not easy to win my then wife-to-be over to the idea of DD spankings, but she came around to the idea. Once she came round to it, she was willing to learn more about it, her enthusiasm for learning more continuing to increase.
Nothing unusual about desiring sex afterwards, though I know many couples deliberately do spanking and sex at separate times to avoid creating a link. A DD spanking is a physical and intimate act, whatever steps like this are taken.
Hi TB,
DeleteLike Alan, I find an impending spanking exciting in a way, but that is gone immediately as it starts. And even during the time that I might be a little excited about an upcoming spanking, I don't know how to describe it. I am not looking forward to it, and in fact just wishing it wasn't going to happen (and too often trying to figure out how to talk my way out of it). The excitement is not really a fantasy thing, but more of a dread at that point, though it certainly has elements of sexual arousal tied in. But as I said, any sexual feelings are gone immediately from the beginning of a punishment.
Afterwards, I feel an incredible intimacy with my wife, unlike any other time (which is saying a lot, since we are very close to each other). This almost never turns into us making love immediately, but this is not so much by design. It is not that we are trying to keep the two separate, at least as far as I know. It is more that we fit in punishments when we can, and then have to get back to normal everyday life. Maybe that will change more as we are empty nesters again?
-ZM
"The excitement is not really a fantasy thing, but more of a dread at that point, though it certainly has elements of sexual arousal tied in." Exactly! I think it's impossible to describe to someone who hasn't experienced it, but the dread is very real, and I think there is something erotic about the dread itself. It's a very complicated mix of emotions, and I've never been able to really explain it, even to myself.
Delete"The dread is very real, and I think there is something erotic about the dread itself" - this idea that while the dread is real, there is almost something erotic about the dread itself was what I was thinking as I was typing, but couldn't quite get it into words.
DeleteAnd as I am thinking about it, it is kind of this dreadful yet in some way erotic feeling that I crave. I like the thought of knowing I am going to be getting a super hard spanking or other punishment, because somehow I have to feel the knot in my stomach. If the spankings themselves were much of a turn-on, it wouldn't work for me, because I need to know that I will be getting it and at the same time very much not wanting to get it.
-ZM
Agreed on the excitement thing. I remember Danny, the protagonist in Roald Dahl's "Danny, the Champion of the World" said that things need to have some element of being scary in order to be exciting. I suppose this is what we are getting at here: the fear of the pain when meshed with the erotic part causes it to be exciting.
DeleteAgreed on the intimacy thing ZM. Though DD when done properly is a punishment, it has the effect of deepening intimacy. Sorry to hear your schedule is so fragmented that things can't take their course: it will definitely be worth it if you find a way to fit in both.
Without the element of fear, I don't know what the point of corporal punishment would be. For me, that's what makes it punishment. Erotic feelings are closely tied to the anxiety, but if the anticipation was for something pleasurable, then there would be no fear. It's not like jumping out of an airplane, or swimming with sharks. There's no real risk of harm, just the likely chance of significant pain. I'm not masochistic enough to turn that pain into pleasure. That's why her authority and level of control is so important. She decides. She may choose to administer only a light punishment, and then the anxiety would have been more punishing than the spanking. The shame would still be high, the message still clear. That works for me. I have no craving for physical pain. It's the threat, and the memory of a painful spanking makes the threat all too real. The erotic nature of it all draws me to the relationship, but turned on by it or not, spanking will be genuinely effective discipline.
DeleteI think we men are more 'cavalier about home security than women, especially when they will be alone in the house overnight.We have a responsibility to protect them and are wives expect that , so I can see why Anne was so upset with you. Perhaps she should have been more lenient with you as it was not intentional , but you still failed to do your job and deservedly got a spanking .
ReplyDeleteI'm sure you will be double checking that the doors are locked next time you leave the house.
On the other hand , perhaps she was keen to try out her new bath brush again !
I have no doubt we are more cavalier about personal security. To me, it's a balance - or should be. I'm not into taking risks for risks sake, yet I also think that some risks are unlikely enough that I'm not going to expend much mental energy sweating them.
DeleteI probably watch too much Forensic Files, but I don't want my wife alone without protection. I'm also the kind who forgets stuff like turning off the stove. DD could be useful here.
DeleteI also initiated DD as a way of equalizing the power balance. My intention was for my wife to use her power just as Anne did with you in this post. We haven't made a lot of progress in that direction.Last week she took the baby step of spanking me for making snarky remarks at contestants appearing on a quiz show. It irritated her. Like you, I didn't consider those remarks particularly toxic since they were aimed at a TV show. She did and she converted a "just because" spanking into one to punish me for my remarks.
ReplyDeleteIt's tough for our wives to make the leap that allows them to punish us for things that they feel we need to correct whether or not we agree.
You're right that it's tough, though it sounds like your wife is starting to make a fairly strong mental connection between you doing something that irritates her, and her authority to spank for it.
DeleteCaged Lion, I agree that it is hard for wives to punish us for things that we may not agree with them on. I know it would be hard for me if the roles were reversed. But for my wife it is not so much that she feels bad punishing me for things that I don't necessarily agree with as much as she doesn't seem to "remember" that spanking can be a go-to tool whenever she is feeling irritated. She doesn't have to feel irritated and just get over it, since she has a powerful way to address those things that irritate her, if only she remembers to do so in the moment.
Delete-ZM
Agreed ZM, this is one of the main benefits: resentment doesn't have to fester. The wife can spank her husband as hard and with as many strokes as necessary for the infraction and then a line can be drawn under it and then they move on.
DeleteI was struck by this part of the DWC fictional story. "Lowering myself across my wife's lap is one of the most difficult things I have ever done, especially since I knew that this would be the first of many spankings and that as of that evening, our relationship would be completely changed."
ReplyDeleteHave many of you experienced that kind of grave feeling, especially your first time after coming to an understanding with your wife? I felt nervous but I didn't feel like our relationship was changing until after several spankings, and it felt reversible. I could ruminate on why but I would like to know what others experienced.
MW wrote: “I didn't feel like our relationship was changing until after several spankings, and it felt reversible. I could ruminate on why but I would like to know what others experienced.“
DeleteI don’t think we have discussed this for a while on the blog, if ever. My experience wasn’t like the one in the fictional story and more like yours. But with a former girlfriend there was one dramatic moment. (More dramatic to me than it turned out to be for her) She had been spanking me for some time, probably well over a year and many were serious spankings. But I always felt I could control it IF I really wanted to. But one night we got into a long argument over the phone that ended up with her hanging up on me and some considerable emotion. Several hours later after I was in bed, she showed up at my apartment with a paddle she rarely used and pulled me out of bed, and had me standing naked in the corner before I was fully awake while she looked for the straight-backed chair she often used to spank. I really did not want that spanking. I had sex earlier that night and was still upset from our fight so spanking wasn’t on my agenda at all. But her will, powered by her own anger, was stronger than mine and despite protests she dragged me out into the hall, pulled me over her knee in classic OTK fashion and gave me a spanking whose marks lasted for more than a week. It probably wasn’t the worst spanking she ever gave me but what I remember was the feeling beginning when she yanked me out of the corner that I couldn’t (psychologically) stop it and that feeling just continued when I was in position. I think that sense of loss of control was also a sense of freedom but that’s probably a thought that really occurred after the spanking or the next day. We did talk about it days later and was a topic interesting to her too because we had often talked about when we would reach the point I no longer challenged her authority. I was pretty animated that it had finally happened but she was amused that I was only realizing it because she felt it had happened well before that night. Males are the last to know I suppose.
Alan
MW, for me, there were two points, close in time, that involved the "grave feeling" that struck you in that story. I've said before that when I discovered the DWC, it kind of hit me like a ton of bricks. I truly had trouble sleeping for a couple of days, it was on my mind so much. And, while the feelings I was having included sexual arousal, most of the reaction was really true fear of what I was contemplating. I'm not sure whether I was scared of the pain from the spanking and, in fact, I don't think I really was. It was the surrender of control, and also particularly the embarrassment that I might cry. The fear peaked at the time I told my wife about the DWC website. Unlike the husband in one of the other DWC stories I really like ("Even More"), I never acted like I was just telling her casually about some kinky website I'd stumbled on. I was pretty clear from the outset that I was bringing it to her attention so she could decide whether she wanted to try it. While I had no idea what to expect, I knew that I was asking for something that could be seriously challenging for me and might represent a real turning point in our relationship.
DeleteThe second moment was the next day, when she called me at work and said she had gone to the DWC website. My heart jumped into my throat, and my it began to hammer when she told me to go buy a hair brush.
Where my experience is different from the guy in that story is that while the sentence you quote indicates he knew everything was going to change as a result of that first spanking, I knew that things *might* change, but I didn't know that they would, and I really didn't know how. Though, that was part of what gave me those "grave" feelings -- I had no idea what to expect, but I knew there was the possibility it could be a really profound change.
"The first night I told Anne about finding the DWC website, I specifically told her that I envisioned DD as a way of her gaining confidence and exploring her own power. Over the years, I think that did happen to a significant extent,"
ReplyDeleteDomestic Discipline was how I did manage to bring the confidence that I had in myself in all other parts of my life into a relationship. Relationships with the opposite sex was the one part of my life where I wasn't even assertive. In every other aspect of my life, I am at least assertive although I can go to being a real Karen if I have to (the "I want to speak to your manager" kind of Karen, not the kind of Karen who calls the police on some guy watching birds in the park). But I was always a pushover in relationships.
While I did introduce Domesetic Discipline, as Dan points out, I didn't go from spanker to SHE WHO MUST BE OBEYED overnight (you can add the thunder and echo chamber, but what's the female equivalent to that deep bass voice that usually goes with the echo chamber and thunder?). I had a lot to learn and had to work with then boyfriend now husband on lots of things. At the same time, then boyfriend didn't go from daily pornography watching,smart mouth, loud guy to lingerie wearing, corner standing, pleading naughty boy overnight, either.
It took and it's still taking work for both of us to keep my confidence in this relationship.
Hi Cecilia. I would be surprised if most DD relationships don't involve more of a process than an event. I guess that might not be true of someone has experienced one before and from the outset is looking for someone who is similarly experienced, but I'm sure for most real world couples it involves the kind of learning process you describe.
DeleteMiss Cecilia,
ReplyDeleteThanks for that eloquent testimony affirming tha DD does add balance to relationships, provide a way to manage male egos and can inspire new dimensions in confidence for a female disciplinarian. The power of DD to enhance and enriches relationships is still a closely held secret, albeit becoming more widely known. But I think more emphasis on the benefits to wife or girlfriend is well overdue
Alan
"more emphasis on the benefits to wife or girlfriend is well overdue"
DeleteWhile Domestic Discipline is about him, too, I often find I have to get into this mindset that this is about ME. I'M making the decision on Discipline. I'M making the Rules. He's obeying ME and My Rules. I'M doing this for MY benefit. Husband submits to this only for me, so I understand what you mean about benefits to the wife/girlfriend.
I introduced Domestic Discipline when I was still his girlfriend. Before that, if he did something with the yard, the house, or his money, I didn't say anything, since it was (and still is) his house. Now if I think he's not being smart with his money or assets, I say something. Sometimes, all I want to know is why he's doing something. I never asked before we started Domestic Discipline. I ask now.
Now, I always know where he is. One of the protocols he has to obey when I've announced he's under Discipline is he has to ask to be excused when he leaves my presence. I'll ask him where he's going or why and he has to tell me. He's now in the habit of at least telling me where he's going even when he's not under Discipline.
“He's now in the habit of at least telling me where he's going even when he's not under Discipline”.
DeleteIt’s interesting that you use that phrase “under discipline” to describe a very specific phase of your DD relationship. I haven’t heard it used much but the former girlfriend who introduced me to DD also used it pretty often. But she used it differently than you do. For her it simply meant I was in trouble and discipline was impending, usually imminent. As I remember it she was just reminding me she expected obedience and compliance. I don’t think she used the phrase more than a couple of years, probably because she decided it was not necessary. But I remember the phrase and how serious she was about it
Alan
Alan,
DeleteWhen I announce to husband he's "under Discipline", it means just what your ex-girlfriend meant when she said it. He's in trouble and I've scheduled a Disciplinary Session (or will schedule one shortly). We both have pretty busy schedules. I require him to follow certain rituals when he's going to receive the actual discipline, so the sessions take some time. It's for these reasons and some others, it's not often he gets disciplined right away when he disobeys me.
Hi Dan,
ReplyDeleteI like how you contrasted “rules-based” and “relationship-based” DD. I think this is pretty good nomenclature. My wife and I don’t have any actual rules, but we are doing the weekly check-ins, where I am graded on specific goals. I guess that does provide a structure similar to rules, even though most of my goals are positives rather than the negatives often implicit in rules addressing behavior issues that other DD couples often use.
“... from the beginning she’s had a much wider charter. She just hasn’t really chosen to use it much before now.” - We are similar to you in that from the beginning, my wife has always had authority to use her judgement, rather than relying only on a fixed set of rules. And my wife, like yours, has not really taken advantage of that broad discretion very much until more recently.
One thing I have noticed, however, is that as soon as we started back up with the boot camp and the weekly check-ins, my wife has also started to exert her authority a bit more in other areas. Exercising her authority in the structured check-ins seems to normalize the whole power structure a bit, and makes it easier to exercise her authority more freely in other areas.
“Yet, I wonder now whether the idea of being punished for things I did not see as problems or priorities was always part of the attraction.” - I expect it is, since at least for me, imposed discipline is the key element that motivates me. And if she starts to discipline you for things that you don’t see as problems or priorities, that is about as “imposed” as discipline can get.
Also, the “Pretty Legs” story resonates a lot with me with me. First off, I can see it being reasonably realistic that I might pay too much attention to a female’s pretty legs (or higher). And I could see my wife punishing me for it, especially since she has been threatening recently. Summers here are difficult, surrounded by innumerable young, beautiful women, all generally underdressed in an attempt to stay somewhat cool. While we may be an extremely conservative country when it comes to relationships, you would never know it from looking at how the women dress.
Where her friend becomes involved, not only in knowing about him being punished but even taking part in punishing him, is where the story moves from likely to fantasy for me, since we have talked about witnesses and she even joked about having a friend spank me, but we have never done anything like this. Even though that part is firmly in the fantasy zone, the situation of me paying too much attention to one of my wife’s friends, and both of the noticing, seems like just the kind of scenario in which my wife might tell someone about me being punished.
And I agree that a lot of elements didn’t ring true, especially the wife initiating the DD relationship. That is a common theme in DWC stories, but in my mind it almost never works that way. However, another perhaps even more common theme in DWC stories is the “careful for what you ask for or you just might get it” element. The husband asks the wife to discipline him, and at first she is reluctant, but then she grabs on to the idea and runs with it, and the guy gets a lot more than he was bargaining for.
I think that DD wives taking things further than the husband imagines actually happens with some regularity, though nowhere near as quickly as in DWC stories (more like after 5 years, not the first time). I think I see signs of this in my wife, especially with spanking, since she really has come to like giving spankings, even though I really don’t enjoy receiving them much. But even though I don’t welcome every spanking, nothing turns me on more than when she takes the initiative and starts to exercise her authority more freely.
I will write more as I think about it, but these were just some comments on your posting.
-ZM
"I think I see signs of this in my wife, especially with spanking, since she really has come to like giving spankings, even though I really don’t enjoy receiving them much. But even though I don’t welcome every spanking, nothing turns me on more than when she takes the initiative and starts to exercise her authority more freely." We are experiencing the same thing. Something seems to really be clicking for my wife right now.
DeleteSo true....There is no doubt when her enjoyment level peaks that she is more inclined to find reasons to spank.
DeleteMy enjoyment level of disciplining husband went higher as I got better at it. I got better at it from disciplining him frequently. As I became a more effective Disciplinarian, I was achieving the results I wanted and I had to look for reasons to administer discipline. Some of this involved new rules. Some of it involved not tolerating behaviors I used to or only complained about mildly.
DeleteZM,
DeleteThis is where we get into the “be careful what you wish for” territory, but it’s also been for me probably the most exciting part of the journey. But back to this “rules based vs relationship based” DD. It’s a useful distinction for discussing DD but in our relationships it has never been an accurate description of the reality – or more accurately has never been a stable reality. We started as Aunt Kay’s website suggested with some basic expectations that were “spankable”. That is rules based. But at the same time from the beginning it was understood her authority to say what was spankable was not limited or not limited to those rules. That would be as understand it, relationship based. So both at once. Then later on it became more relationship based as she started to use her authority more. But the old rules stayed in place even though they never or almost never needed enforcement. Now more recently we have been doing behavior reviews which rely a lot on her judgement about rule compliance. So now its rule based again. Except it really isn’t because she has more authority than ever in the relationship. I guess you could say our DD is rules based on a relationship.
Alan
Hi Alan,
DeleteI totally get the coexistence of rules-based and relationship-based DD. I did include a "vs." in there, but I don't think they are in any way mutually exclusive. My wife and I also use a combination of sorts, with the weekly check-ins being at least similar to rules (they are actually goals, but they are very concrete), but she has always had total authority to spank whenever she wants, for whatever she wants, how hard she wants, etc. But she has tended to not really use that authority much.
The wife making the rules is also a clear step towards the FLR side of the spectrum. I was hoping to write some about the FLR angle this week, but it doesn't seem like that will happen. I am really on the fence when it comes to FLR. My wife and I have a great relationship as equals, where we jointly make all significant decisions, and I wouldn't want that to change. However, I am intrigued by the control aspects of FLR. I guess the ideal for me would be to keep our equal relationship overall, but also have times - either discipline related or not - where she exerts her authority very strongly, so at those times it would feel like and look like an FLR. I can say that we seem to be very slowly treading towards the FLR side. We might still be far from it, but we are certainly moving more towards than away from FLR.
-ZM
ZM wrote” …we seem to be very slowly treading towards the FLR side… we are certainly moving more towards than away from FLR.”
DeleteI think Domestic discipline is a continuum ranging from “Early DD“ at one end to “Full FLR” at the other and everyone in a DD relationship is somewhere along that line with exactly where shifting around over time.
But more important I have come to realize, mostly from listening to our female commenters, that where on that continuum one is, becomes almost completely the decision of the wife or girlfriend – and the extent to which she comes to exercise her disciplinary authority.
When we started it was fairly narrowly behavior focused BUT it also started with her having full authority both to decide what was subject to discipline and how it was administered. Looking back I think giving her unchallenged authority at the start was essential to making any of it work in the beginning.
But at the same time giving her that authority virtually guaranteed that if the DD relationship continued, that scope of disciplinary authority would inevitably expand as our relationship grew and matured. Just think of the things that can get you in trouble today compared to when you started. I am betting it’s a much bigger list and probably includes things you never expected. That certainly happened to us.
But wives and girlfriends apparently differ quite a bit in how far (and how fast) they take the relationship along that continuum toward a full FLR. Danielle for example as I understand her, has made it a full FLR from the beginning. By contrast my wife, with the same authority has adopted a slower pace.
But the take away for me is that the women controls it. If my wife decided to transform our relationship into a full FLR, it would happen (although there would probably be a few bumps in the road along the way). So I guess all in all, the best thing is to relax and enjoy the ride because she is driving the bus and she is going to take you where you both belong.
Alan
Alan wrote: >>>But wives and girlfriends apparently differ quite a bit in how far (and how fast) they take the relationship along that continuum toward a full FLR. Danielle for example as I understand her, has made it a full FLR from the beginning. By contrast my wife, with the same authority has adopted a slower pace.<<<
DeleteAlan, I would just add that I didn’t decide unilaterally to have “full FLR from the beginning.” That’s what my husband said he wanted, so it’s not as though I imposed it on him. But I suppose I did use the power he gave me to take FLR in some directions he didn’t expect.
Danielle
" I suppose I did use the power he gave me to take FLR in some directions he didn’t expect."
DeleteThat is the point I am making.
Alan
Danielle here:
ReplyDeleteDan wrote:>>>My quibble with the quote was only to the extent it implied that my interest in DD is only about my own self-improvement goals and remedying my self-identified failures. Yes, it is about that, but from the beginning she’s had a much wider charter. She just hasn’t really chosen to use it much before now. From the very beginning, I saw DD as addressing some recurring issues with my behavior, but also about equalizing power balance by empowering her and disempowering me. <<<
Dan, I apologize for misrepresenting your view of DD. I oversimplified your view to show how it differed from my husband’s view. The way my husband presented FLR to me, spanking was a form of punishment I could use as I saw fit if he failed to please me in any way. Your idea of it as a tool to help a husband reach self-improvement goals was absent from his pitch. I didn’t put much thought into rules, but I was able to use discipline to improve aspects of his behavior and attitude that bothered me. That was tremendously empowering to me in a totally practical way. Prior to FLR, I felt that we were headed towards divorce because I felt neglected: Wayne would stay up late looking at femdom porn instead of going to bed with me. Not only did curbing that behavior feel empowering, it reinvigorated our sex life. Come to think of it, I guess you could call that a rule: he had to go to bed when I did, unless I gave him permission to stay up later. So we do have rules, but the rules are set informally by me as I deem appropriate. By "informally" I mean that if I decide to discipline my husband, there is no legalistic quibbling as to whether any "rule" has been broken. Nor is there any quibbling about the form of discipline I deem to be appropriate. I think my husband imagined at the outset of our FLR that "discipline" would always mean spanking. I have found it empowering to be able to use disciplinary methods that go beyond his spanking kink.
Concerning the spanking Anne gave you for neglecting to lock the doors, in her place I would have done the same thing. Not only that, if I read your subsequent blog post and saw that you described my concern about security as “borderline paranoia”, I would probably spank you again. I don’t think it is paranoia when women worry more about security than men do.
"Not only did curbing that behavior feel empowering,"
ReplyDeleteFrom the beginning, husband (then boyfriend) let me know he looked at pornography frequently. I never liked it. It wasn't until I introduced Domestic Discipline that I understood I didn't have to put up with it. The less he looks at pornography, the more empowered I feel. I've actually gotten him to change a habit he's had since JHS.
Like you, Denielle, most of My Rules are informal until I've informed him he's under Discipline. He has to be a gentleman, but there's really no specific template for that. I expect him to know me well enough to know if something will displease me, or not. I don't always look at his computer history, in fact, I don't do it often. He doesn't delete anything and never has.
at the same time, I do give him outs. He and best friend don't like each other. I admit she can be a Karen sometimes. If she goes too far, he can tell me and I will tell her to take it easy. If she doesn't listen, he can say what he wants to her. Any time he wants sex, all he has to do is ask. I told him even if I'm beat up, if he wants it, just ask and I'll take care of him. SO there's no need for pornography. Since he's a gentleman anyhow, if I'm beat up, he won't ask, but, that's no excuse for violating my Rule against pornography. If he's going to be the gentleman, then he's going to do the whole thing.
Like you do, I use methods besides spanking to discipline husband.
Danielle here:
DeleteMiss Cecilia wrote: >>>. Any time he wants sex, all he has to do is ask. I told him even if I'm beat up, if he wants it, just ask and I'll take care of him. SO there's no need for pornography. Since he's a gentleman anyhow, if I'm beat up, he won't ask, but, that's no excuse for violating my Rule against pornography. If he's going to be the gentleman, then he's going to do the whole thing.<<<
Cecilia, my rule about pornography is a little different than yours. I don’t have a strict “no pornography” rule. My rule is that my husband comes to bed when I go to bed so that he is not tempted by porn to stay up late. I don’t mind him looking at spanking or other forms of femdom erotica, as long as he doesn’t neglect me or his domestic duties. In fact, rather than banning porn/erotica, I asked my husband to show me images and stories that turn him on in order to understand him better. I should say that I would perhaps feel less tolerant of porn viewing if he was into hardcore porn videos that make sex seem lurid and degrading. But the biggest part of my husband’s “porn” collection consists of the kind of F/M spanking images that Dan posts in his blog. I was surprised to see that he also had a collection of “Domestic Servitude” images, depicting men doing housework in the presence of women who are either enjoying leisure time or supervising with some spanking implement in hand. When my husband confessed that he was turned on by images like that, my eyes were opened to some very practical benefits of FLR for me.
Your strategy of offering sex on demand as an alternative to porn is interesting, but I don’t think it would work with all men. That assumes that wives are in direct competition with porn for their husbands’ attention. I don’t think it is as simple as that. I think couples can use porn/erotica together to spice up their sex lives. Also, although FLR resulted in increased activity in the bedroom, our dynamic was almost the opposite of sex on demand for my husband. If a man is turned on by the idea of his wife being sexually dominant, denying him sexual gratification can be more powerful than granting it.
Miss Cecilia wrote: >>>. Any time he wants sex, all he has to do is ask. I told him even if I'm beat up, if he wants it, just ask and I'll take care of him. SO there's no need for pornography. Since he's a gentleman anyhow, if I'm beat up, he won't ask, but, that's no excuse for violating my Rule against pornography. If he's going to be the gentleman, then he's going to do the whole thing.<<<
DeleteCecilia, my rule about pornography is a little different than yours. I don’t have a strict “no pornography” rule. My rule is that my husband comes to bed when I go to bed so that he is not tempted by porn to stay up late. I don’t mind him looking at spanking or other forms of femdom erotica, as long as he doesn’t neglect me or his domestic duties. In fact, rather than banning porn/erotica, I asked my husband to show me images and stories that turn him on in order to understand him better. I should say that I would perhaps feel less tolerant of porn viewing if he was into hardcore porn videos that make sex seem lurid and degrading. But the biggest part of my husband’s “porn” collection consists of the kind of F/M spanking images that Dan posts in his blog. I was surprised to see that he also had a collection of “Domestic Servitude” images, depicting men doing housework in the presence of women who are either enjoying leisure time or supervising with some spanking implement in hand. When my husband confessed that he was turned on by images like that, my eyes were opened to some very practical benefits of FLR for me.
Your strategy of offering sex on demand as an alternative to porn is interesting, but I don’t think it would work with all men. That assumes that wives are in direct competition with porn for their husbands’ attention. I don’t think it is as simple as that. I think couples can use porn/erotica together to spice up their sex lives. Also, although FLR resulted in increased activity in the bedroom, our dynamic was almost the opposite of sex on demand for my husband. If a man is turned on by the idea of his wife being sexually dominant, periodically denying him sexual gratification can be more powerful than granting it.
Danielle
It would be an interesting topic to discuss the uses of spanking (and other) erotica in a disciplinary couple relationship. I suspect most of the men reading this site enjoy tales of other men being punished (I certainly do). How much is that allowed or frowned upon by the woman?
ReplyDeleteCrimsonKing
I would be interested in people's answers to that question too, CrimsonKing.
DeleteI already wrote about it myself in a response to Miss Cecilia above.
Danielle
When my wife, then girlfriend, first started experimenting with kink, she was enthusiastic about watching kinky videos, especially any that reflected her particular fantasies. With regard to spanking and discipline, commercial erotica served as her education, beyond what I could teach her, because she didn't know much about it. Neither of us have ever been much interested in conventional porn but, like that, kinky erotica is a good way to see what appeals and what doesn't, and then learn from the demonstration or steer clear. She's not interested in men being punished, but she's never had any problem with me enjoying whatever entertainment I like. She isn't neglected because of it.
DeleteBrett said, "She isn't neglected because of it." To me, that's really the key, and I admit I don't understand the desire to clamp down on porn in the abstract. I am sure that porn can be abused or become dysfunctional, as can alcohol, food, and even exercise. It's all about whether it is having some kind of adverse impact on the person engaging in the activity or those they care about. If one spouse has an objection to the other spouses' porn viewing, I guess I'd be curious about the answers to a series of questions. (1) Is it having any negative impact on the quantity and quality of his/her sexual or romantic relationship with you? In other words, is he/she putting out as much as you want and is there any negative impact on function?; (2) Is it having a negative impact on his/her expectations or attitudes?: (3) Is it excessive, such that it's a distraction from other life activities like work, time with spouse and children, etc. You get the idea. If there doesn't seem to be any objective problem with the porn viewing, then my question would be, which spouse *really* has the problem and possibly unhealthy attitudes toward sex, nudity, etc?
DeleteI know this is last weeks post but stories like the one in the post are either fiction or like the saying "If her bra and panties match you are not the one who decided to have sex" - if she takes to flr that fast it was not your idea...she just made it think it was yours. But I suspect 99% are fiction as this one is labled.
ReplyDelete