To be accountable means that we are willing to be responsible to another person for our behavior and it implies a level of submission to another's opinions and viewpoints." ― Wayde Goodall
Hello all. Welcome back to the Disciplinary Couple’s Club. Our weekly gathering of men and women who are in, or would like to be in, Domestic Discipline relationships. I hope you all had a great week.
Mine was OK, if a little
frustrating. We had something go wrong at
the house. It wasn’t a huge catastrophe,
but it required getting services from a few different vendors, and it all had
to be coordinated. I was really
surprised, and more than a little pleased with myself, that it all seemed to
come together miraculously, and suspiciously, easily. Then, it all kind of fell
apart, with two of the initially responsive vendors more or less ghosting me
for several days, which is kind of a common issue in our community. It wasn’t a huge problem, but annoying nonetheless
and frustrating to schedule around. I
guess I should have kept my expectations a little more reasonable.
It also was a frustrating week on the health and fitness front. I talked last week about the behavioral fail that earned me a good, hard spanking (more on that in a bit).
Speaking of that spanking after
last week’s fail, it was one I was feeling for a good long time. That surprised me a little, since it was an
OTK spanking with a brush, even if it was a bath brush. I’m not exaggerating
when I say I was still feeling very tender four days later, and I could still
feel some of the deeper soreness after a full week.
Glen asked how I rate the effectiveness of Anne’s brushes. There’s not a simple answer. If used very vigorously, I think the hairbrush hurts at least as much as the bath brush in the moment, probably because the business end is smaller, so the impact is more concentrated. But, the bath brush unquestionably resulted in longer lasting, deeper soreness. By the end of the spanking, the bath brush was causing some numbing, but in fairness it was a longer spanking than she has given me with the hairbrush. Finally, Anne has also mentioned how much she likes a very nasty, short leather DWC “paddle” with holes. I hate the thing. It is far more wicked than it looks, and its end has a way of finding the inside of the crack between my cheeks resulting in a really unique and excruciating sting. While she hasn’t done so, it is short enough that I’m sure she could use it OTK.
Thanks for last week’s discussion on disrespect, fairness and openness. One theme emerged that I’d like to follow up on a bit.
On the issue of fairness, Spanked Cowboy noted:
“At the onset, during agreement drafting time, it was agreed that she would have uncontested control over discipline. When she determines discipline is warranted there is no debate.”
It sounds like many of us have more or less the same agreement or understanding, i.e. that the wives have the discretion to spank for anything they think merits it, yet it also seems to be the case that many of them struggle to use that discretion. They do fine with concrete things like spanking for missed chores (see Caged Lion’s comment) or when there is something like a checklist involved (see ZM’s comments about their bootcamp check-ins with clearly defined targets. But, they seem to struggle more on judgment calls like whether a particular instance of disrespect or attitude crosses a line.
For the wives, I’m curious, do you agree that being a disciplinarian is easier if there is less discretion involved and the spankable offenses aren’t subject to your interpretation or judgment? Or, are you more comfortable with discretion and calling it like you see it?
On the issue of openness, by coincidence, I read an article this week on Medium about going to a kink party and how freeing it was for the author. She talked about how society’s aversion to things like public displays of affection allows others to set the bar on our personal choices around sexual freedom, or at least when and how we express it. In discussing where one draws the line, she drew a distinction that I thought was kind of interesting, contrasting to teenagers she saw making out on a train with a guy staring at her while masturbating. In her mind, the distinction hinged on the extent to which she was being brought into a sexually explicit scenario without her consent. As she put it, with respect to the guy masturbating, it made her feel “like a pawn in someone else’s exhibitionist fantasy. I don’t want to be part of someone else’s sexual experience without being asked if I’m okay with it first.” But, with respect to the teenagers making out, “I did not feel implicit in their experience — I was just a bystander. I did not feel I was part of the sexual act, being brought in against my will.” https://medium.com/monogamish/we-went-to-our-first-kinky-party-and-it-felt-like-freedom-d066e22f58c4.
I wonder whether an overheard spanking, or one seen through an open window shade, could be seen the same way? If your neighbor just happens to overhear a spanking, they be uncomfortable, but you didn’t try to bring them into the act in any way or make them take part in something. Rather, you just weren’t particularly worried about their wounded sensibilities if they happened to overhear. On the other hand, if you gave a spanking in the woods on a busy trail hoping that someone else would come along and witness your kink . . . . That does feel more manipulative, more intrusive somehow.
I also really liked ZM’s observations regarding the connection between openness and ego:
I think that openness ties in perfectly for dealing with disrespect which comes from excessive ego. If too much ego is the problem, then the cure would not just be a bruised bottom, but also a bruised ego. I am not talking about being brutally humiliated, but rather being taken down a peg or two. And while this can happen in private, it would be much more effective if accompanied by the embarrassment of others knowing that it was happening, especially in those cases where the victims of the disrespect are the ones who hear about the consequences. It would be very impactful if others knew that my wife punishes me for things between us, but I can’t even imagine what it would feel like if I was being my usual loud, cocky self and suddenly my wife announced to the very people I was showing off to that I am going to be spanked.
While I know I would be mortified were Anne to actually do something like that, ZM is undoubtedly right that my disrespect issues do result from an abundance of ego, and the most effective solution probably would be aimed directly at that ego; at, as he put it, taking me down a peg or two. It’s a possibility that I think my subconscious clearly gravitates to and is repulsed by. As I’ve discussed here before, I haven’t had spanking dreams very often, but when I have they have tended to involve things like being taken out of a social or work event, with everyone knowing I am to be spanked. Or, my mother pulling over a car to the side of the road to spank me, where anyone driving by could see. Whether anything like that will ever happen, I don’t know. But, it’s certainly food for Anne to think about.
As you may have noticed, I didn’t really assign a topic to any of the above. I’ve obviously been struggling to come up with topics lately. But, during those periods when I’m not feeling inspired by anything in particular, there often still are thing going on that I might feel like relating to others or mulling around collectively. So, I may try free-forming it for a while and see where it leads. . .
Have a great week.
“…wives have the discretion to spank for anything they think merits it, yet it also seems to be the case that many of them struggle to use that discretion. They do fine with concrete things like spanking for missed chores … But, they seem to struggle more on judgment calls like … disrespect or attitude”
ReplyDeleteMy thinking on this is that many female disciplinarians are more or less comfortable punishing for things that might be harmful to their partner (e.g. -excessive alcohol or not wearing a seat belt) or to a third party (e.g. reckless driving) as well as other concrete misbehavior such as blatant disobedience or untruthfulness or behaviors like temper tantrums or moodiness that threaten the relationship. But those same female disciplinarians are less comfortable punishing for things that represent offenses to them like disrespect or simple disobedience. The difference seems to be whether they perceive the behavior is directed at them or externally, with the latter much more likely to be punished. I know from reading some of the FLR blogs and femdom blogs that women are counseled to demand respect and punish any disrespect severely. But in my (admittedly limited) experience, that just doesn’t happen consistently. I would love to hear from some of our female contributors how they feel about this. I have some mixed feeling about this. We are at a place in our DD where I really don’t want her to expand the scope of what I get punished for. But on the other hand it seems that if a women is really in control in the way so many of us seem to want ( and need), then she should be comfortable disciplining for disrespect and other behaviors that mostly affect her
Alan
Hi Alan. I hadn't thought about the internal vs. external dynamic, but you could be right. It's interesting from a psychological perspective, as well as from a leadership perspective. I've always thought that when DD is discussed, a lot of emphasis is put on the changes it brings about to the recipient, and we kind of shortchange what it may do for the disciplinarian. Getting more comfortable with real leadership could be a beneficial byproduct for the disciplinarian. Let's face it, when you take on a leadership position, no one gives you a map of the terrain you are going to encounter or a checklist of actions that will apply in every circumstance. Most of the time, you are flying blind in circumstances that entail a lot nuance and where there are lots of subjective judgment calls to be made -- precisely the situation that seems to be a challenge for some of our disciplinarians. While they may not be comfortable with that level of discretion, it's kind of intrinsic to most real leadership positions. I am curious about whether the disciplinary wives feel like making decisions around DD has helped them become better leaders in other areas.
DeleteI agree and hope some of our disciplinary wives take this one on. There have been past comments from several women that suggested that DD had increased their confidence. It may well be that the “fairness” concern does inhibit many from imposing discipline in ambiguous areas. And with some obvious exceptions, experiencing disrespect is a subjective experience. If she tells you not to have a third drink and you do it anyway, that is very concretely an act of disobedience and talking your way out of that is very hard even for the most manipulative male. But telling her with a straight face that you were not rolling your eyes, but just trying to get something out of your eye is at least an argument that injects some uncertainty into it. So maybe if you do sometimes try to talk your way out of a spanking , you are part of the problem.
DeleteAlan
Hi Alan,
DeleteExcellent insights, as always!
"But those same female disciplinarians are less comfortable punishing for things that represent offenses to them like disrespect or simple disobedience. The difference seems to be whether they perceive the behavior is directed at them or externally, with the latter much more likely to be punished." - I hadn't thought about disciplinary wives tending to punish for things that don't directly affect them before, but I do think it generally rings true. And it actually makes quite a bit of sense. It would be really hard to punish someone quite hard, particularly because it doesn't seem like a very nice thing to do. So I think that most people doing the punishing try to maintain at least the thin veneer of "it's for their own good." I know that was certainly true for parental spankings. When behavior got too far out of hand, parents (and others) reined it in, but often were quick to mention that they were doing it for the child's own good, or the familiar "this will hurt me more than it hurts you" line. Punishing someone is often pretty unpleasant, so as long as you can convince yourself that you are doing it only for their own good, it is much easier to swallow.
In the same way, I think that wives who get some enjoyment out of the power rush of exercising authority often struggle with those feelings in the beginning, because it just feels wrong to get turned on by doing something that just feels so wrong.
Having said all this, I do wish that my wife would use DD more for her benefit. It is not that I want her to punish me more often, since even though I am excited by the whole power dynamic of it, I don't enjoy the actual spankings one bit while they are happening. Rather, it is because I want her to feel like she is directly getting things she wants out of doing it. However, whether she does this or not, at least I can take comfort in knowing that she is helping me to be a better husband, father, worker, friend, and so on, and we both benefit from the improved communication and unbeatable intimacy that come from DD.
"So maybe if you do sometimes try to talk your way out of a spanking , you are part of the problem." - This has been me too many times, probably because as I said, when it comes time for spankings, I really, really don't want them. However, I have made a conscious decision to stop trying to talk my way out of spankings, and I think it will help her to feel even more confident.
And Dan, I absolutely agree that DD can help a wife to become a better leader and give her increased confidence to assert herself in other spheres outside the home/relationship as well.
-ZM
"And with some obvious exceptions, experiencing disrespect is a subjective experience." That's true, and even if the conduct itself is clear-cut, the parties may still have differing opinions on whether it is "spank worthy" and that may lead her to second-guess herself. I do think my wife and I do sometimes have differing views concerning the seriousness of particular incidents or behavior, with me sometimes judging my actions more harshly than she does.
Delete"In the same way, I think that wives who get some enjoyment out of the power rush of exercising authority often struggle with those feelings in the beginning, because it just feels wrong to get turned on by doing something that just feels so wrong." ZM, I'm sure that's true. We seem to have this paradoxical wiring in which we often admire or are attracted to very powerful people, yet we don't want those people to get off on being powerful.
Being spanked by your wife certainly has an impact on the male ego , so having this become 'public' would indeed have an even greater impact .
ReplyDeleteOf course doing this is a way that is too public may be going a bit far.
However , when a wife does something to suggest you will be spanked this can have a great effect, without letting the entire 'cat out of the bag'.
A public comment like "I'll deal with you later!" , or "Just wait until I get you home!" make it clear you are in for a 'comeuppance' without revealing the details.
Something like,"You're asking for a spanking!" Would be even more effective but still leave her audience unsure if she is serious.
The mere mention of the 'S' word in front of others will keep the male ego in check.
Also great fun and a confidence booster for the wife.
“When a wife does something to suggest you will be spanked this can have a great effect, without letting the entire 'cat out of the bag'”.
DeletePerhaps ironically blogs like this one may have changed many peoples sensitivity to subtle warnings that even ten years ago would have flown far over the radar screen. It wasn’t that long ago that a partner could toss off a warning that was almost sure to be assumed in jest. Today a clear reference to future discipline is likely to light up at least a few ears. I am not sure that there is any more spanking going on today than in the day. But I know a lot more people seem conscious of it than I remember. I know if we ever finish with this dammed pandemic and begin to socialize seriously again, I am going to pay much more attention to that subtle and nuanced chatter that couples sometimes engage in while in public.
Alan
I know if my wife said any of these things, it would certainly quiet me down right away, and no doubt my ego would feel the sting of it, even if maybe those who heard thought that it was all in jest.
Delete-ZM
I am surprised that the problem Mrs. Lion has with spanking me for annoying her is a common one. I suppose it makes sense. There is something organically "right" about the cause-and-effect relationship between breaking a rule and getting punished.
ReplyDeleteIt has to be a lot more difficult to inflict the kind of pain we receive as retribution to annoying our wives. My wife usually says that she isn't sure it was my fault. Fairness is a big deal to her. If I forget to set up the coffee pot, there is no issue of fairness. I missed a chore and must be spanked. If I interrupt her, she will worry that maybe I didn't realize that she had more to say. It might not be fair to beat me for it.
On the other hand, it wouldn't cross my mind that it was unfair of her to spank me. Fairness never entered into my thinking. After all, is it objectively fair to give me a ten-minute paddling for forgetting a small chore? It seems that Mrs. Lion is fine with a binary punishment model when it comes to easy-to-define offenses, but resists when anything subjective is involved.
"On the other hand, it wouldn't cross my mind that it was unfair of her to spank me. Fairness never entered into my thinking. After all, is it objectively fair to give me a ten-minute paddling for forgetting a small chore?" This puzzles me, too. Punishing for something that impacts her directly and that really is just bad, arrogant behavior seems like an easy call, while punishment for a small failure regarding chores seems far more debatable.
DeleteHi Dan,
ReplyDeleteYou raised some interesting points about the openness angle regarding how it seems from the witnesses' perspective. I need to think about it more, since the thoughts are just rolling around in my head.
"I don’t want to be part of someone else’s sexual experience without being asked if I’m okay with it first" - I think we can all agree that we wouldn't want to put someone into this awkward situation. Rather, we would like them to feel more her in the second scenario: “I did not feel implicit in their experience — I was just a bystander. I did not feel I was part of the sexual act, being brought in against my will.”
At first glance, it would appear (without having yet read the article) that the primary distinction she is making in the two situations is intent. The guy staring at her while masturbating was clearly trying to include her in his act, and probably was doing it specifically because she was there, while the couple making out probably hardly noticed her presence and was making out because they felt like making out. They most likely weren't doing it because she was there, and in fact probably would have preferred if she wasn't.
This is probably true enough for these two situations, and it is a big difference. So, if we view having someone witness or hear about a punishment as them being a participant in our sexual experience, than it would mean that we should carefully test the waters with people, making sure they are not easily offended by your kink and hopefully seeing them express at least some interest in it. And this might well be the way to approach it, even though I don't really like it.
However, there is also a huge difference in the sexuality of the two acts she mentioned. Masturbating while staring at a stranger is totally sexual lust, while teenagers making out on a train isn't necessarily all that sexual (of course it may have been), and rather is just them expressing their love to each other (however immature that love may be) in perhaps a bit too open of a manner. So, I think the amount of sexuality implicit in an act is also a significant factor.
Bringing it back to DD, I found your dreams interesting: "I haven’t had spanking dreams very often, but when I have they have tended to involve things like being taken out of a social or work event, with everyone knowing I am to be spanked. Or, my mother pulling over a car to the side of the road to spank me, where anyone driving by could see." - The thing I find interesting about both of these things is that witnesses are part of it, or could easily be part of it, but in both these cases, the whole experience is pretty distinctly non-sexual, and while the witnesses or potential witnesses undoubtedly would make the punishment more impactful, the focus is on the punishment, not on being exhibitionistic.
As I said, I still need to think about this more. The primary thing I struggle with is I would like to experience a punishment with either people knowing about it or even witnessing it, but for it to NOT be seen as primarily sexual, which is unfortunately where all people seem to automatically categorize all adult spanking, regardless of the circumstances. So I want it to be like the school spanking I never got, where the witnesses (whether they see it or not) are mostly amused at my plight and probably also a bit morbidly fascinated with the whole affair, without them feeling like they are part of my sex life. Maybe that is too much to hope for?
-ZM
Hi ZM. I'd be interested to get your take on the article as a whole. As you'll recall, a couple of comments last week centered on being sensitive that our openness about DD not offend innocent bystanders. While the author is making several points at once, one of them seems to be questioning, more or less, whether the bystanders reaction really should be something that constrains us, at least within certain boundaries. I can argue that one either way, and it's because I'm genuinely on the fence about it. I do think that social conventions often become conventional for good reasons. Yet, it does seem to me that we often do have moral codes that reflect the (religious) values of the most uptight persons in society, sometimes from many decades ago. Also, a plot spoiler -- the author actually was offended by the teenagers making out, but she then explores *why* that might be the case and suggests that if we are offended by PDAs and resent sexual openness, perhaps we need to ask ourselves why that is the case instead of automatically assuming that the people engaging in the open displays should adjust their behavior to meeting our sensitivities, when instead maybe we should work on answering why we are so sensitive.
DeleteHi Dan,
DeleteI did go ahead and read the article. I think she is right about the freedom, and how that can feel like a refreshing change.
Like you, I am pretty on the fence on this issue. I too could argue either side of it quite comfortably. As far as what is appropriate, I think that context plays in heavily. It is only polite and kind to consider how your actions affect those around you and how it makes them feel. For example, I would not find it very acceptable to have too much open sexuality in front of children, because it is likely to put the parents into positions to discuss things that maybe the kids aren't ready to hear about, understand, and process.
At the same time, I think that we have excessively repressed sexuality forever, and that is to our detriment. 90% of what we consider too private to talk about could easily be talked about with no ill effects, and in many cases we create problems by building this big shield of secrecy around sexuality. Also, I kind of get tired of caring what little thing may offend someone. We all at once need to be mindful of others, and people need to have much thicker skin and get offended quite a bit less than they do.
Regarding how this plays into DD, I am still thinking about it. There is at least some sexual element involved in adult spanking, but I am not sure that there would have to be. I do know that there is for me, but does that mean there is to everyone?
Is the very act of spanking sexual? I know that some people use it that way, but I also know that spanking has been used in many non-sexual punishment situations as well. Perhaps psychologists or others might say that even these non-sexual spankings are sexual, but then some psychologists throughout history have been convinced that just about everything is sexual, so I am not sure how much stock I will place in that.
Or is it because it involves a bottom? But it seems hard to make much of a case that it is so harmful or offensive for someone to see a bottom, considering what people wear to the beach...
In any case, my current thinking is:
- it shouldn't be too much of a problem for anyone to hear about DD spanking. Maybe they will be a little off-put by it, but that is probably not my problem. So if my wife threatens to spank me, they can think what they want and it is not my problem, especially since they don't know if it is real or a joke or whatever.
- if someone happens across a spanking in progress, it may be disturbing to them, but assuming the purpose was not just for them to see it, I don't think it is that big of a deal.
- If the purpose is to intentionally involve witnesses, it is probably better to make sure they are ok with it beforehand. Perhaps not by directly asking, but at least by seeing how they respond to conversation around the topic.
-ZM
BTW, regarding the last paragraph I wrote in my posting (about how I would like there to be witnesses, but for them to not feel like they are part of my sex life. I recognize that DD has a clear sexual element for me, whether it does for others or not. However, if someone were to know about or witness a spanking, I would only want to minimize the sexual element of it, and for them to at least recognize that there is also a very real element of it as well (i.e receiving real spankings for real actions, when I really don't want her to spank me at the time), even though the whole thing has an undercurrent of sexuality.
Delete-ZM
"Also, I kind of get tired of caring what little thing may offend someone. We all at once need to be mindful of others, and people need to have much thicker skin and get offended quite a bit less than they do." Amen. I really wonder when and by whom it was decided that everyone has a right to go through life never getting offended. I've posted Bill Maher's clip about all the excessive apologizing going on in popular culture these days. He also did one recently around all the faux outrage over some comments from Matt Damon. I thought he once again hit the nail right on the head. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZ1mGVu5584
DeleteDanielle here:
DeleteThis talk about openness made me think of something. Privacy is a luxury that not everyone can afford. I have the impression that most of us posting here live in single family dwellings. But when Wayne and I were first married we lived for a year in a rental townhouse complex, and we shared walls with neighbors on both sides of us. The walls were not very soundproof, so you could often hear the neighbors. You could hear their music. You could hear when couples argued loudly. You could hear parents yelling at children. I don’t recall whether I ever overheard parents spanking children, but I probably wouldn’t have thought much about it if I did. We did occasionally overhear the couple on one side having sex because the woman was very vocal. Were they making us witnesses to their sex life without our consent? I didn’t think so. I never mentioned it to the woman because that would have embarrassed me, and I assumed (perhaps wrongly) that it would have embarrassed her. I was personally inhibited about sex while we lived there because I would have been mortified to think the neighbors might hear MY vocalizations. But it’s nice not to have to worry about making noise during sex. I find it easier to have orgasms if you can be as loud as you want. Where we live now, I have always been careful to close windows before we have sex. That got me to thinking, if we still lived in a place like that, would it be appropriate to spank my husband, knowing that neighbors would probably hear?
I believe we were right back then not to complain to our neighbors about their loud sex. Maybe they were intentionally loud because they were exhibitionists. But maybe they were just living their lives in a way that was none of our business without the privacy that comes with a higher income. It is possible that without the luxury of privacy, I would never have agreed to spank my husband. But maybe I would now. So what if the neighbors overheard me spanking my husband? Would that be so terrible? Would it harm anyone? You shouldn’t have to change the way you live your life just because someone might overhear, should you? As it stands, we are lucky that we don't have to worry about that.
Danielle, you reminded me of how Anne and I too lived our first year with a near total lack of privacy. We were living in married student housing. The walls were concrete, so I couldn't hear anything coming through the walls, but there was no A/C, so everyone left their windows open during the warmer months. The couple above us both fought and fucked extremely loudly. I vividly recall one day when there were a bunch of kids playing ball on the grassy area around the apartments, when the woman above yelled at the top of her lungs, "Put it in my ass! Put it in my ass now!" I looked outside and saw a bunch of very interested, if highly confused and quizzical kids, pausing from their ballgame and looking up at that apartment.
DeleteWhen my wife and I were new to spanking, we didn't stop because people might overhear. We were actually pretty daring (or dumb) about it. We weren't doing loud punishment scenes, so it fortunately didn't sound like the police or hotel management should be called. It wasn't exhibitionism, just enthusiasm for the act. We tried to keep the noise down. Now that I'm older, I'm more thoughtful of my neighbors and reluctant to chance disturbing them at all.
DeleteA friend of mine bottomed to his wife. She had inserted a butt plug and was teasing him. He sneezed violently and the plug shot out of the window into his neighbor's barbecue. That's inadvertent public exposure.
DeleteI believe that spanking is private behavior. Whether or not it is considered sexual by the people doing it makes no difference. It isn't exposing the bare bottom. Though you could argue that isn't acceptable public exposure. It's the act of disciplining someone. I think it is uncomfortable for people to witness scolding. No matter what your personal beliefs, watching punishment isn't necessarily comfortable for spectators. I think that good manners dictate sparing bystanders exposure to disciplinary activities.
Brett and Caged Lion. I get your perspective and probably lean toward the view that sparing others from unanticipated or unwanted exposure is probably a matter of good manners. Though, I'm more on the fence on this one than I usually am. My agreement regarding the importance of good manners is offset by agreement with ZM's points about most people getting too offended too easily.
DeleteCaged Lion, that is a wild story about the butt plug! I can only imagine...
DeleteI am not disagreeing that spanking is private behavior, but I am not sure exactly why it is, just like I am not sure why it would automatically be considered sexual?
"It's the act of disciplining someone. I think it is uncomfortable for people to witness scolding." - I agree that it is uncomfortable to watch couples disagree, and any time there is a public scolding of anyone, regardless of whether they are a couple or just some scold telling off some person in a checkout line, it is very uncomfortable for everyone around them.
"No matter what your personal beliefs, watching punishment isn't necessarily comfortable for spectators." - Again true, especially in our modern world. Public punishment wasn't uncommon for much of recorded history, and at times it was even a source of morbid entertainment. Going back to the school punishments, I think that the whole system benefited from the discomfort that everyone felt when someone was sent to the office; even those who were amused were a little jarred by it knowing that it might be them next.
"I think that good manners dictate sparing bystanders exposure to disciplinary activities." - In general, I agree. I would not intentionally put bystanders in this awkward situation. But if it happened unintentionally, I wouldn't be too concerned about it either.
When I talk about any public aspect of this, it is always within the context of one or several people either knowing about or witnessing spankings. In any case, they would first be vetted by "testing the waters" by hinting at things and seeing if they show any interest in it and gauging their response. Also, they would have the benefit of context, since the whole thing would be discussed with them, which is quite a bit different than strangers being suddenly blindsided by witnessing a public punishment.
In the end, I try to never offend anyone (for anything), but I greatly appreciate those who choose to not be easily offended.
-ZM
Caged Lion wrote: >>>A friend of mine bottomed to his wife. She had inserted a butt plug and was teasing him. He sneezed violently and the plug shot out of the window into his neighbor's barbecue. That's inadvertent public exposure.<<<
DeleteYour friend’s public exposure may have been inadvertent, but he and his wife appear to have been getting off on risky behavior. Your friend was being dominated in a way that had him naked with a plug in his butt next to an open window close enough to the neighbors’ barbecue for the butt plug to land in it when he sneezed. That makes me think that the proximity of the neighbors was part of the thrill, even if they didn’t intend to have their kinky game publicly exposed.
Danielle
Danielle here:
ReplyDelete>>>For the wives, I’m curious, do you agree that being a disciplinarian is easier if there is less discretion involved and the spankable offenses aren’t subject to your interpretation or judgment? Or, are you more comfortable with discretion and calling it like you see it? <<<
I have always called it as I see fit. We have never drawn up a list of rules Wayne has to follow because that would feel like a straight jacket to me. Basically, I expect him to do as he’s told and I expect him to be respectful. If I become dissatisfied or annoyed or angry with him, there is always an element of subjectivity, and Wayne knows that my mood can influence my disciplinary decisions. For example, if he rolls his eyes when I point out that I am dissatisfied with something, I may let it go or not, depending on my mood. There is also a subjective element in my reading of his mental and emotional state. Sometimes I have spanked Wayne because I judge that he needs it. Because Wayne has a spanking kink, I think being spanked makes it easier for him to accept the terms of our FLR.
On the topic of openness, I agree that there is a big difference between a neighbor happening to overhear or glimpse something and intentionally putting on a public display. I think I mentioned a while ago that I probably outed our DD arrangement to the young couple on the other side of our backyard fence. It happened because I became annoyed with Wayne for acting like he didn’t want to help out while we were gardening, and I threatened to adjust his attitude with a spanking if he didn’t adjust it himself. Immediately thereafter we became aware that our neighbors were probably within earshot on the other side of the fence. I wouldn’t have done that on purpose, but I’m not unhappy that it happened by accident. I don’t think any harm was done, and it doesn’t seem to have changed anything in our casual acquaintanceship with the neighbors. I admit that I quite like the idea of the young woman next door knowing that I wear the pants on our side of the fence. I have no plans to make it any more explicit, but nor do I feel a need to make sure every window in the house is closed before spanking Wayne the way I used to. Mind you, the lots in our neighborhood are big and the houses far apart, so even with windows open the neighbors would have to listen hard to make out what is happening. If our neighbors were to approach the fence line and cock their ears in an effort to hear a spanking, I can’t see that we would have imposed on them in any way.
Hi Danielle. Your observations about subjective judgments are similar to my views. Unless a couple wants to live by concrete, ultra-specific lists of what is in and out of bounds, subjectivity seems inevitable and, frankly, to me far preferable to such rigid limits on her authority.
DeleteI would have loved to be a fly on your neighbor's wall after they overheard that conversation.
Hi Danielle, we don't have any set list of rules, but we do our weekly check-ins for things that we are trying to work on, and they are pretty well define. But they are more goals that have been mutually agreed upon. As far as any behavioral issues, she has total discretion.
Delete"Because Wayne has a spanking kink, I think being spanked makes it easier for him to accept the terms of our FLR." - I am sure this is the case. I would not say that DD or FLR couldn't work for someone who has no underlying fetish or fantasy, but I think that the reason it works so well for my wife and I is because it plays well to my fantasies. I guess for us the way it works is I like being a spanked husband, but I don't like being spanked.
Regarding openness, I like your approach. If someone accidently overhears, then so be it. No harm, no foul. On the other hand, you also very clearly told your friend about it and even involved her in a spanking, but you did so with her clear consent.
-ZM
Danielle and Dan, your way makes sense to me, as well. As always, I relate everything to my experience with parental discipline. We had no list of rules growing up. You learn through experience what is considered right and wrong and, in some cases, that can depend on one authority's unique way of seeing things. Some level of obedience and respect is expected/demanded. That just goes with the territory, and the real threat of punishment is highly influential. This is where a wife who sees herself in the parental role should have less internal conflict in deciding when and how to punish and for what. It's whatever she feels is best for her husband, herself, and for the relationship. No need to be second-guessing herself if it's her responsibility to be in charge. Most things regarding behavior are common sense, but you also pay attention to an authority figure's mood to gauge what you can get away with at that moment. With DD, I've seen couples make an elaborate contract that spells out every rule and possible infraction, even specifying what punishment is to be used for this or that. That's great if it works for them, but I think leaving things open, alive and flexible for growth aligns better or more comfortably with the everyday flow of life. From a kink standpoint, I'm also much more attracted to the idea of a female led relationship where the wife is the actual leader rather than a couple both being led by an explicit contract.
DeleteAs far as the issue of openness goes, I can see it from a real and fantasy perspective. In real life, it would be extremely difficult for me to be open about DD/FLR, and keeping it a secret would be my sincere wish. However, the way it was growing up, spanking, and discipline in general, wasn't a well-kept secret. Nothing was broadcast on TV, but anyone around, and whatever word got passed on, became to some extent, public knowledge. That larger social aspect of discipline played an important role in my feelings about it, and was also a factor in its effectiveness. So I like to imagine DD/FLR to be more open than I would actually like it to be. But that's often what this kind of relationship is all about, isn't it? — being led to difficult things we don't like, but where we're taken to places we're better off for having gone.
"With DD, I've seen couples make an elaborate contract that spells out every rule and possible infraction, even specifying what punishment is to be used for this or that." We did some of that in the very beginning. While I'm glad things progressed beyond that, I do think that it had the benefit of giving her some issues where the crime and the punishment had been agreed to in advance, thereby tempering some of the wide open discretion that seems to trip up some of the wives in some areas. The whole subjective element was removed where the offense and the punishment were designated in advance in very concrete terms. As I said, I'm glad things moved beyond that, but I think it served as a confidence builder in the early stages.
DeleteFor couples starting out, I can see where lots of discussions, spelling things out, and even a formal contract could be the smart way to go, especially if there's uncertainty on either side of the paddle. Then let things evolve as they will from there. That's in the real consenting adult world. As fantasy, I just jump ass first into the most uncompromising situations. :)
DeleteI think spanking relationships may be coming out of the closet in the same way homosexual relationships did. Homosexuality has existed about as long as Homo sapiens have (in fact longer). Similarly couples have engaged in consensual spanking perhaps as long. But until recently most people who were gay learned to conceal it or in some cases to repress it, pressured by social norms (mainly). Similarly so did most spankos conceal or repress and for similar reasons. I have recently been watching some old shows that depict homosexuality as it was in the bad old dark ages, And I was shocked to realize those dark ages were about two decades ago more or less. What happened to change it for gays? For one thing we as a society seem to be slowly throwing off the worst vestiges of our repressive puritanical culture. We still are - compared to Europeans - incredible prudes. But it is slowly changing. But something else accelerated the virtual mainstreaming of gay acceptance. I think that was gays themselves coming out, telling their friends, parents and colleagues, and so many of them doing it that most people realized not only that they had gay friends or children but that gay sexuality was completely “normal”. Openness about spanking obviously has not yet reached that point but the directions seems clear to me. That could be one of the things that keeps interjecting this topic into our discussions. No one is really comfortable denying or concealing their sexuality and if you are a spanko, spanking is as much a part of your sexuality as homosexuality is to a gay. And we do want to share it.
ReplyDeleteFor all the knocks it takes regarding the pablum it often serves up, I think you really have to credit TV for the way homosexuality went from taboo to mainstream at such a feverish pace. A few daring TV shows started showing openly gay characters in the early 70s, but they weren't really core to the series. My first memory of a gay main character was Jodie Dallas in Soap, and I also remember it being banned in my house and in most of my friends' homes. It seems like the 80s were kind of a deadzone, with a few recurring gay characters, but few and far between. I do recall a gay character on Hill Street Blues, which was a pioneering series in all sorts of ways. Then came the 90s, and some gutsy series like Will & Grace where, for the first time, main characters were gay and gay issues were treated with a mix of seriousness and humor and also, for the first time, a sort of "gay relationships are just relationships" approach that wasn't beating the audience up with a political or moral viewpoint. I think some of those gutsy programming choices by major TV networks deserve a lot of credit for taking homosexuality from firmly in the closet when I was growing up to, for my kids, about as interesting as being left-handed.
DeleteYou could be right, but I really don't see evidence of anything comparable where adult spanking is concerned, and certainly not any kind of disciplinary spanking. I do give Fifty Shades of Grey some credit for outing kink in general to a wider community but: (a) the movies at least have very little spanking; (b) in the first movie what little spanking there is is shown in a very negative light; and (c) the dominant partner's sadistic desires are attributed to horrific childhood abuse. I think spanking as a kinky sex act probably is more or less generally accepted these days, it certainly isn't out there much in the popular culture, and I don't see anything remotely close to recognition for, let alone real acceptance of, adult discipline.
Also, I'd love to hear from some of our European commenters, and folks like ZM who have lived in both, on whether Europeans are actually that much more tolerant or less puritanical. I've traveled a fair amount in Europe, and you hear things like homosexual jokes that would draw swift condemnation if uttered openly pretty much anywhere in the U.S. The Brits seem to me to be every bit as repressed about sex as Americans, if not more so.
DeleteSorry, I neglected to sign the post above. Dan, I hope to be able to respond to your comment but a bit tight just now
DeleteAlan
Dan wrote: “I think you really have to credit TV for the way homosexuality went from taboo to mainstream at such a feverish pace. “
DeleteYes, media did have a major impact but mainly on younger demographics. There is no evidence I know of that significant numbers of older adults (say 45 and up) reformed their opinions of homosexuality from consumption of mass media. Yet many older adults (sadly, not all) did do a lot of reforming. Much of it ,in my opinion, came from increasing numbers of gays themselves “coming out”, telling loved ones, friends and others and consequently many former homophobes began to realize that gays were not this “ other” group but their friends, neighbors, and children. That is the link to adult spanking that I failed to make as clear as I should have. If spankos begin to come out, even in the limited ways discussed on this blog, the spanking lifestyle is not going to seem that strange or unfamiliar. But if spankos remain in the foxhole, the lifestyle is going to remain as grotesquely distorted as was homosexuality.
Danielle here:
DeleteDan wrote : >>>I think spanking as a kinky sex act probably is more or less generally accepted these days, it certainly isn't out there much in the popular culture, and I don't see anything remotely close to recognition for, let alone real acceptance of, adult discipline.<<<
Alan wrote: >>>If spankos begin to come out, even in the limited ways discussed on this blog, the spanking lifestyle is not going to seem that strange or unfamiliar. But if spankos remain in the foxhole, the lifestyle is going to remain as grotesquely distorted as was homosexuality. <<<
I think I agree with Dan that adult/adult spanking is probably seen and somewhat accepted by most people as a kinky form of sex play. I also think that a certain amount of kinkiness is seen in a more positive light than it was when I was young. It strikes me that the term “vanilla” nowadays almost connotes prudishness, and nobody wants to be seen as a prude. Incidentally, I can remember a time when I thought oral sex was kinky, but I think it is so mainstream now that people would find the idea of a couple totally excluding oral sex from their sex life strange.
When I consider how I came to see oral sex as normal rather than kinky, I think Alan’s point is right. It became normalized because people began to talk more openly about their sex lives, and oral sex was part of the conversation. Oral sex is also frequently implied in mainstream movies in non-graphic ways. Erotic spanking play isn’t quite that mainstream, but I don’t think many people would find it shocking. However, I think Dan is right that serious non sexual adult/adult discipline is in a whole other league. Many people would find the idea of spanking an adult as an actual punishment sinister, I believe.
When I told my friend Barb and Wayne’s sister Liz that I spank Wayne, they both seemed to find that information amusing and titillating. And they both asked the same question: “The spankings aren’t really punishments, are they? You spank him because he likes that, right?” Both were surprised when I told them that, not only are the spankings disciplinary, but I sometimes discipline Wayne in other ways too. I explained to both of them that Wayne has consented to FLR as a 24/7 power exchange. That surprised them, but they grasped that FLR is serving a sexual need for Wayne. I think that makes it seem acceptable to them. Wayne’s sister teases him light-heartedly about his submissive status, but she is happy for him because she thinks he is lucky to be getting something he needs. But I think the idea of DD that wasn’t erotic would be harder to understand.
“But I think the idea of DD that wasn’t erotic would be harder to understand”
DeleteDanielle, your example of oral sex is an excellent illustration of how and why sexual norms can change. But you are absolutely correct that the idea of DD as you practice it and we do and many others on this blog do is much harder to understand, particularly to a vanilla but probably even many people who practice erotic spanking. Real punishment from a spanking may always be a bridge too far for most people -in part because the motivations and sexuality of DD is so complex.
Indeed as many commentators on this blog have said from time to time – even a dedicated DD spanko doesn’t fully understand what drives it. So spanking as adult discipline may never be widely accepted.
But there is a case to be made that it will become more mainstream as more and more people become aware of DD as a relationship tool. The internet may be the game changer in this as it has been for so much else. As knowledge about DD and FLR’s becomes widely dispersed, more and more people are learning of its benefits especially in long term committed relationships. More male spankos are going to be emboldened to raise the subject with their significant other –and more and more wives and girlfriends are likely to at least become better informed if not actually be willing to try it.
And when people do try it and they realize the benefits it brings to relationships that will lead to more DD/FLR experimentation especially by couples in long established relationships. The reality is that DD/FLR brings benefits in intimacy, trust, sharing and vulnerability that are simply not otherwise available to most couples in most relationships. I doubt that many couples who have experienced the joys of a stable DD/FLR ever voluntarily give them up.
Alan
Danielle, I'm a little younger than you, but I too remember when oral sex was considered kinky, or at least kinkier than intercourse. I get the impression for the younger generations, not only has it changed, but it's flipped. Oral sex is seen as foreplay.
DeleteIt really is odd to me that a sexual motivation does seem to make DD or FLR-related activities seem *less* kinky and more palatable to people who aren't into it. I really don't have an explanation for why adding sex to a relationship activity would make that activity seem more acceptable to a broader range of people. Maybe in our egalitarian society people are more comfortable with sex than with power?
Alan, I wonder, however, whether it is actually true that more and more people are discovering DD as a relationship tool. There obviously no good source of information to prove the point one way or another. But, I would think that if knowledge of it was becoming more widely spread, I would see that reflected in my own blog statistics. Yet, I really don't. Looking at the Google stats, the blog's daily readership ramped up more or less steadily for its first three years, then more or less leveled out. The readership did seem to jump a bit throughout 2019, then dropped back again to a level similar to the 2016 through 2018 periods. Honestly, it's pretty remarkable how little the readership levels have varied after the initial ramp-up phase.
DeleteAlan, you are absolutely right about the relationship benefits afforded by DD, though like Dan I am not convinced that more and more people are discovering DD and using it as a relationship tool. But those that have discovered true DD would have to be blind to not see the benefits of it for both parties.
DeleteAnd Dan - "Maybe in our egalitarian society people are more comfortable with sex than with power?" - I think this is exactly right. In general we as a society can't stand that anyone holds power over anyone else, which is most ironic since in every aspect of life it is the case.
Danielle - "When I told my friend Barb and Wayne’s sister Liz that I spank Wayne, they both seemed to find that information amusing and titillating. And they both asked the same question: 'The spankings aren’t really punishments, are they? You spank him because he likes that, right?' Both were surprised when I told them that, not only are the spankings disciplinary, but I sometimes discipline Wayne in other ways too. I explained to both of them that Wayne has consented to FLR as a 24/7 power exchange. That surprised them, but they grasped that FLR is serving a sexual need for Wayne." - I think this delicate interplay between the fantasy and reality is what makes DD so uniquely effective as a tool for those who happen to have the fantasy. It is not that DD couldn't work in the absence of the fantasy, but when the fantasy is there, it just makes everything oh so powerful. It can be hard to grasp for someone that something can be both a strong sexual fantasy and at the same time be completely genuine and real.
-ZM
Dan said: "Also, I'd love to hear from some of our European commenters, and folks like ZM who have lived in both, on whether Europeans are actually that much more tolerant or less puritanical. I've traveled a fair amount in Europe, and you hear things like homosexual jokes that would draw swift condemnation if uttered openly pretty much anywhere in the U.S."
DeleteI am not sure that Europe is necessarily more tolerant or less puritanical. It GREATLY depends on which country, and also which age group. For example, my country has very conservative views about sex, and kink is almost unheard of. At the same time, you would never guess that people were conservative by looking at how they dress (or barely dress).
I would say as a generality, Europeans are much more comfortable with nudity and with their bodies in general. And I think most Europeans are relatively open to homosexuality, etc. However, I would also say that many (not all) Europeans are also
much less politically correct, so you are more likely to hear things that people who are opposed to something might say, where they might only think it in the USA.
-ZM
I think Dan is right that people in our society are “more comfortable with sex than with power.” I find that understandable, to be honest. If I spank and otherwise dominate my husband because that satisfies his sexual craving to submit to me, the trappings of inequality can be seen as an expression of an underlying equality. We are interacting sexually, which is something that adults do with adults. But if you remove sexual motivations from the picture, DD could be seen as a practice that infantilizes the partner on the receiving end of discipline. The feminist ideal of marriage that seems dominant nowadays is based on a belief in equality of the sexes. A D/s relationship that satisfies the sexual needs of both partners can be seen as a sexual contract between equals. But if there is no sexual motivation, it could appear to outside observers as though the submissive partner is being kept in a state of permanent childhood by the dominant partner. I think lots of people would see such a power imbalance as unhealthy and maybe even sinister. I’m not saying that’s the way it is, but I understand why some people might see it that way. Come to think of it, I have internalized the power dynamic of FLR to the extent that I sometimes have the feeling that my disciplinary authority over my husband is the expression of actual superiority. Sometimes that makes me uncomfortable because it would feel demeaning to me to be disciplined by my husband the way I discipline him. I sometimes have to remind myself that it’s okay because that’s what Wayne has asked for. Bottom line: if even I am uncomfortable about D/s sometimes, I can understand why people with no inside experience of D/s might find it sinister.
DeleteDanielle
ZM wrote: >>> I think this delicate interplay between the fantasy and reality is what makes DD so uniquely effective as a tool for those who happen to have the fantasy. It is not that DD couldn't work in the absence of the fantasy, but when the fantasy is there, it just makes everything oh so powerful. It can be hard to grasp for someone that something can be both a strong sexual fantasy and at the same time be completely genuine and real.<<<
DeleteIn the case of my husband, the fantasy is more than a tool. I don’t think DD would work with him in the absence of the fantasy. He accepts discipline that is “completely genuine and real” because he has a craving for the fantasy to BE real. I see the kind of DD that Dan talks about as quite different. If a man asks his wife to spank him in order to reach behavioral objectives he sets for himself, he isn’t “submitting” to discipline the same way my husband does. It’s more like self-discipline with the help of his wife. It seems to me that Dan’s concept of DD shouldn’t be that embarrassing if properly understood. But maybe some people would have difficulty understanding why spanking, which seems inherently humiliating, would be the preferred form of discipline if there is no sexual thrill involved.
Danielle
I'm at least part way with Wayne on this. I would be submitting to the reality because that's the fantasy. If it's not genuine, and doesn't actually work as real discipline, then it's not exciting. It just so happens for me that spanking is something I want to avoid regardless of the excitement. Either way and bottom line, sexual discipline is, in fact, effective discipline.
DeleteI also think people are more tolerant and understanding of DD/FLR as a sexual fetish than as actual power inequality. From a rational side, I can more easily support a relationship that's all about meeting each other's sexual needs, but my kink wants inequality. I would expect that, from the perspective of a typical outsider, that relationship looks like a bit too much humiliation of the husband. The appearance of it heightens the sexual thrill of FLR.
Danielle: "I see the kind of DD that Dan talks about as quite different. If a man asks his wife to spank him in order to reach behavioral objectives he sets for himself, he isn’t “submitting” to discipline the same way my husband does." I would say ours has always been a mix of the two, and getting more so all the time. Actually, the trend may be in the direction of your and Wayne's dynamic. When I first discovered the DWC, I think the core of the desire it raised in me was around accountability. And, you're right, to a big extent that was and is about a desire to be held accountable for my *self-defined* failures. But, there also was also a genuine desire from the jump to empower her and, in so doing, disempower me, because I felt (and she agreed) that our dynamic was pretty unbalanced by virtue of my more intense personality, the fact that I was the primary, earner, etc. As time goes by, the FLR component and the power imbalance in her favor is becoming more pronounced. For example, I had a little solo adventure this weekend that involved me leaving the house on a trip on my own. She texted me that evening to say I would be spanked when I got home because I left two doors into the house unlocked when I left, and she was mad that she came home to a house that was basically wide open to intruders. Now, the reality is we live in a safe neighborhood and I genuinely believe she is *way* too concerned about personal safety issues. But, as our dynamic has progressed, she is making more and more of those calls.
DeleteHi Danielle,
DeleteI loved your statement: "He accepts discipline that is 'completely genuine and real' because he has a craving for the fantasy to BE real." - That is exactly me. I crave the feeling of living under real authority, and the fact that she can (and does) punish me whenever she wants, however she wants, and however hard she wants is what makes that authority come very much to life. But when she does, I never want the punishment at the time, because I don't like to be punished. So I crave to be compelled to receive that which I don't want, just to show the authority she has.
Regarding Dan's comment above, I think for my wife and I, it is a lot like Dan and his wife. We certainly have elements of it - like the weekly check-ins - that are mostly about helping me meet my own goals. So that part is kind of like me "borrowing" some of her self-discipline to supplement my lack of self-discipline in these certain areas. And of course the whole disciplinary relationship was my idea.
However, as time passes, it becomes less a "my thing" and more of an "our thing." She has seen that she first off enjoys this relationship dynamic, and secondly that she has a great relationship tool that she can use. She doesn't need to put up with being annoyed or go down the "cold shoulder" or silence pathway if she feels irritated. As she feels more empowered, I see that she is seeing this as something that isn't just to fulfil my fantasies, or even to help me achieve my own goals, but also to help me better meet her needs and wishes and further strengthen our relationship. And when anything is her idea, it is just a whole new level of reality.
-ZM
Apologies in advance if this contribution comes from the opposite direction to where the discussion has been going. Basically Mrs GLM refuses to spank for specific offences prefering to spank in a maintainance style approach. She figures that because I enjoy being spanked she would be rewarding bad behaviour. I have tried to convince her I would not deliberatily do something just to provoke a spanking but she is firm on this. I am a little frustrated by her stance because their are a couple of specific things I'd like her to help me change, for example my bad habit of not eating whilst out drinking (leading to me being more drunk than I should be). I will live in hope she will relent. Cheers GLM.
ReplyDeleteMickey, I understand your wife's thinking. I thought the same thing when we embarked on FLR: how can spanking be an effective deterrent to bad behavior if my husband has a sexual craving for spankings? But I quickly noticed that when I made spanking threats of the form "If you don't do x by a specified time, I am going to spank you", I never had to act on the threat because, paradoxically, spanking threats work on my husband. If your wife decides to implement the kind of spanking regimen you would like, just make sure that you prove to her that you take the threat of spankings seriously.
DeleteDanielle
"She figures that because I enjoy being spanked she would be rewarding bad behaviour." That became a big concern for my wife during the very brief period in which we experimented with erotic spankings. She was comfortable with DD as described on the Disciplinary Wives Club website only because the described spankings were very hard and severe -- enough to be real deterrents.
DeleteI guess in this regard I am wired differently than some. While I am definitely turned on by the power exchange part of our relationship, and while I am definitely a spanko (in terms of what pictures, videos, and so on turn me on), I really don't like being spanked, especially hard, so it is hard to imagine spanking being a reward. For me, even though I am wildly excited by the thought of spanking, the actual punishments are something that I actively try to avoid.
Delete-ZM
Bad-boy wrote: >For me, even though I am wildly excited by the thought of spanking, the actual punishments are something that I actively try to avoid.<
DeleteOne of the hallmarks of the Disciplinary Wife lifestyle - that I've seen repeated many times in the various forums over the years.
For the disciplined husband - the thought of a spanking can be very exciting before and after the actual spanking - but not so much *during* an actual long and hard disciplinary spanking. --al
ZM wrote “For me, even though I am wildly excited by the thought of spanking, the actual punishments are something that I actively try to avoid”
DeleteDanielle’s earlier point that the threat of a spanking gets result often without needing to spank really provides insight into this seeming paradox. It is the exercise of feminine authority backed up by the credible threat of a punishment spanking that produces the dynamic. The spanking itself if it happens is really punishment. That is why a wife or girlfriend can use DD to both give her partner gratification from his fantasy while also modifying his behavior with actual spanking . Getting spanked is not a reward. Being threatened with a spanking can be. But it’s a women exercising her authority that makes it all fit together.
Alan
Alan wrote: >>> Getting spanked is not a reward. Being threatened with a spanking can be. But it’s a woman exercising her authority that makes it all fit together.<<<
DeleteYes, I think that is exactly right. A typical spanking threat might sound something like this: “If this bathroom is spotless by the time I get home, I’m going to paddle your bottom.” When I make a threat like that, I know the bathroom will be spotless when I get home. I find that curious. I have asked Wayne about it, and as I understand it, when he has to do housework under the threat of being spanked, he gets sexual gratification from the feeling that I am coercing him, so he gets a kind of pleasure from doing the work, even if it’s work he normally hates to do. We both know the threat is real, even though I won’t have to act on it. Otherwise, it wouldn’t have the erotic power it does.
Danielle
Exactly so! I have used the phrase “dance of discipline” (probably not original) to describe this and it is a kind of an orchestrated choreography performed by both partners where needing to administer an actual punishment is equivalent to one partner stepping on the others toes.
DeleteAlan
Openness is already a threshold that my wife has crossed whether I agree with it or not. As I've said, she makes me cancel plans with friends when I'm grounded and tell them exactly why. And has had no problem letting some members of her family know about both the spanking and the grounding. I can absolutely attest to the fact that it has worked to keep my ego in check and is humbling to say the least. I hate it, and it is by far the worst part of our dd/wlm (or whatever you wish to call it) from my perspective. Worse than the punishments themselves for me, but it also serves to work as a deterrent. If I (a 40 year old man) know I'm going to have to tell one of my best friends that I can't go fishing on Saturday because I fell behind on my chores and I'm grounded for the weekend (by my wife, no less), I'm not exactly going to be in a hurry to get grounded, am I? Returning to the subject of ego being kept in check, I can assure you that any arrogant or overly macho behavior goes out the window with your wife watching you make a phone call like this. A call she made you make, and anything from stunned silence to laughter or even bewildered questions sounding in your ear from the buddy you just ditched.
ReplyDelete- Trent
Trent, I have also used grounding to punish my husband, and he has had to cancel plans with his buddies on occasion. However, I have always allowed him to make creative excuses to avoid revealing to his friends that he has been grounded. I can see that the embarrassment of having to tell his buddies the truth would be a great deterrent to bad behavior. But I thought that losing face among his buddies might not be good for him. I have sometimes threatened to call his friends myself to tell them why he can't, for example, play golf, but I wasn't really serious about it. It's just a way of pushing his buttons, like threatening to spank him in a public place. If I might ask, how does it affect you when your friends laugh and ask questions about being grounded by your wife? Has it never caused an intolerable loss of face for you? Or have you explained to your friends that your submission to your wife is a kink that turns you on to make it more understandable to them? Incidentally, I told my husband's sister that I spank and discipline him in other ways, but it has never occurred to me to tell his brother. My gut tells me it would hit Wayne harder if I told his brother. I guess it is also easier for me to talk to another woman about it.
DeleteDanielle
Hi Trent and Danielle, for me the thought of guys knowing, especially friends, is generally harder than the thought of women knowing, but I am not sure exactly why that is. Also, it is interesting that in general I think it would be easier to tell guys that I was grounded (though she has never done that), and it would be easier to tell women that I was spanked. I am not sure why this is, and in fact only realized it as I was sitting here writing.
Delete-ZM
Danielle,
DeleteThere's a certain amount of comfort in knowing I'm not the only one in a dd/wlm who also gets grounded instead of just spanked. It's usually 50/50. Spanked for one infraction, then grounded for the next infraction maybe a week or two later. If it's something really bad, she will use both. Spanking first, then immediately grounded after that is over.
I do think it is kind of you to allow him that dignity of coming up with some excuses to save face for his friends. My wife's main reason for not allowing me to do so is she has nothing but contempt for lying in nearly every form. Her narcissist ex-husband and his years of doing so expertly being the cause of that. Her secondary reason is that she thinks punishments should be somewhat embarrassing on purpose (though not humiliating, degrading or demeaning as is often the case in femdom and bdsm based practices) and that element of embarrassment helps make the punishments more of a deterrent. She said that it's also a good way to determine who my real friends are and that they might, as you mentioned, assume it's just a kink thing with us anyway. As it turns out, this has been the case more often than not, and that has definitely helped to take the edge off my embarrassment. I've had to deal with jokes about it, but over the years only a few caught on that it was genuine. One of those friendd she made me stop hanging out with anyway since he was a holdover from my wilder late teens to early 30's. I was very bitter and resentful of it at the time, but he went to jail less than a year after she enforced that decision. She was right and I told her as much after that happened.
Honestly, I think threatening to call your husband's friends and tell them is enough to send him a message without actually doing it. Maybe even tell him you encountered someone on this blog who has to tell his friends about his groundings and that it has you thinking. Just the fear of that alone will probably scare him pretty straight. After telling him you've decided not to , remind him that he is lucky and has it better than some. That's just a suggestion however. Thanks.
- Trent
ZM,
DeleteWhy not recommend grounding to your wife as a possible alternative punishment? Obviously, it is her decision to make, but it could be beneficial at timed. That way, she doesn't feel like she has to find the time to spank you for every single infraction if opportunity is scarce. As an extension of that, it'll make it easier on her to deal with you in any situation where she can't use spanking for whatever reason.
I think it's a macho thing with guys. The idea of another man knowing you submit to your wife and are punished by her making you less manly. I've never understood this myself. It actually takes a lot of courage to willingly submit to another in that manner. As I've said, she was clear from the start that it would be an flr if we started seriously dating. No false advertising either. She made sure I knew exactly what she meant after telling me this. I could have called off then and there, but didn't because I felt in my gut even then she was the right one. So I pushed past my pride and went with it, and still don't regret it. I can deal with all the "pussy whipped" jokes in the world if I have to, but nothing changes my being grateful for her every single day. She probably saved my life.
- Trent
Hi Trent, you said:
Delete" ZM, Why not recommend grounding to your wife as a possible alternative punishment?" - Well this one is easy! Probably because I fear that I would struggle a lot with the whole feeling of being grounded! :-)
-ZM
Danielle here:
DeleteTrent wrote: >>>There's a certain amount of comfort in knowing I'm not the only one in a dd/wlm who also gets grounded instead of just spanked. <<<
Don’t worry, Trent, I’m sure you and my husband aren’t the only men in WLM’s who get grounded sometimes instead of just spanked. Is grounding the only non-spanking punishment your wife uses? I was a mother to two boys before I became a disciplinarian to my husband, so I have a whole tool box of “maternal” discipline techniques. Maybe I could make some other suggestions to your wife? ;-)
>>>I do think it is kind of you to allow him that dignity of coming up with some excuses to save face for his friends. <<<
It wasn’t just kindness. We live in a fairly small town, and my husband’s profession before retirement put him in the public eye. It wasn’t just that I didn’t want to embarrass him in front of his friends. I didn’t want to undermine him in his profession by exposing him to the risk of gossip and jokes in our social milieu. I understand your wife’s point about embarrassment being a part of the punishment and serving as a useful deterrent to bad behavior. Putting myself in your wife’s shoes, I can imagine that she gets a certain satisfaction from making you admit to your friends that she has the power to ground you.
I haven’t used grounding as a punishment for a while because there was nothing to ground Wayne from during the pandemic. And now that the pandemic is over, he is dealing with some serious health issues, so I don’t feel inspired to be overly disciplinary with him. Maybe I’ve even been coddling him a bit.
ZM wrote: >>>Hi Trent, you said:
" ZM, Why not recommend grounding to your wife as a possible alternative punishment?" - Well this one is easy! Probably because I fear that I would struggle a lot with the whole feeling of being grounded! :-)<<<
That made me lol, ZM! If spanking is the only disciplinary tool your wife uses, you probably don’t want to give her any ideas. I can tell you, it’s a bit of a rush for a wife to have the power to ground her husband. If your wife tries it, she may discover that she likes it.
But there is another possible objection to grounding and that is that it doesn't work for everyone and might be resented. We are not in an FLR and she has only ever used spanking and other reinforcements of spanking such as corner time and making me wear panties after a spanking.Grounding never even worked for me growing up. But while I might sulk occasionally after a spanking ( and these days tha is not very often), I always experience spanking as loving female authority and ultimately a positive experience but always rebelled against other punishments and pretty sure I would today if my wife chose to use any of them. If it ain't broke, why fix it?
DeleteAlan
Alan, I agree with you that there is no point in fixing it if “it ain’t broke”. I have enjoyed using non-spanking punishments in addition to spanking because it feels empowering to me to have a range of disciplinary tools that go beyond my husband’s spanking kink. But then, I think he experiences grounding as kinky too, and other men might not. But I am curious about your statement that punishments like grounding never worked on you while you were growing up. Are you saying that until you left your parents’ home, the only effective discipline for you was spanking? When my sons were teenagers, we used only non-spanking disciplinary measures, figuring they were too old to spank. Those measures included things like grounding, loss of allowance, and loss of privileges like watching TV or, later on, having access to the car. Surely, your parents must have used similar measures with you? No need to answer if I’m being too nosey. I’m just curious. I guess I also wonder why it would be seem less appropriate for a wife to ground her husband rather than just using spanking discipline if the purpose of DD is…discipline.
DeleteDanielle
Danielle wrote: “…I also wonder why it would be seem less appropriate for a wife to ground her husband rather than just using spanking discipline if the purpose of DD is…discipline.”
DeleteDanielle, I don’t think any guy in a female led DD relationship has anything at all to say about the appropriateness of a punishment his wife or girlfriend uses. That goes to the very essence of what DD is all about. And if my wife decided to use grounding or a similar punishment it would happen. But I am saying from experience I know they don’t work very well for me and I tend to resent them. I don’t take particular pride that corporal punishment is the discipline to which I respond – and apparently many men do respond well to things like grounding and loss of privileges. I am just not one of them. And I agree as you say that the purpose of DD is discipline but the purpose of discipline for us is managing my behavior and nothing does that better or faster than a spanking or being threatened with a spanking.
Alan
The threat of spanking was the effective influence for me. If I had the time to think about what I was doing or about to do, grounding or other things were not my concern. After a spanking, there was for some period of time, a fundamental psychological change in me that other kinds of punishments did not produce. Spanking is the most powerful discipline to me, and the most exciting. However, that's not to say my wife using grounding or other punishments wouldn't be useful, and part of the impact on me would be excitement over her show of authority and my humbling position under it. A big part of my attraction is what she thinks and feels, and to know she is feeling her own power. I like her to wield it in a fair and reasonable way, and to enjoy her role as leader and disciplinarian.
DeleteZM,
ReplyDeleteZM wrote: “However, I have made a conscious decision to stop trying to talk my way out of spankings, and I think it will help her to feel even more confident.”
Please let us know how well this goes for you. Because of some things going on with us I have recently become aware I try to talk my way out of spankings too often.
We have talked about instituting a zero tolerance rule that I comply immediately when she uses a certain phrase and offer no objections unless there is a medical reason. Then I would be free to talk about it afterward as much as I needed. We have not started this yet and may not. But I do realize I am undermining her authority when I do that. One problem is that since we have been empty-nesters, she is more likely to spank first and ask questions afterward. When I try to talk her out of it that slows down the process and she has admitted she sometimes is glad she cooled off
Alan
Hi Alan,
DeleteI will definitely update everyone on this. Spankings are now much more likely since we are back to being empty-nesters.
We too have considered something like you mentioned, where objections, if any, would only be discussed after the spanking. I have mixed feelings about it, because on the one hand, I think my objections before spanking - even those that are valid - are probably self defeating since they decrease her confidence. On the other hand, since she knows I sometimes (too often) have objections, if we agreed that she would punishing me first and only talking about objections afterwards might ALSO make her more reluctant to spank, since if I did have a really valid objection that I tell her afterwards, then she would feel bad about just having punished me. Since I don't have a clear thought on this, I am mostly focusing on just trying to have fewer objections, especially since as we have talked about before, many if not most objections seem to evaporate during the punishment.
-ZM
ZM wrote: “many if not most objections seem to evaporate during the punishment.”
DeleteWhy do you think that happens? It happened to us earlier this month over a pretty important issue about travel plan we were making and I argued vociferously with her but didn’t think I was being defiant and definitely didn’t think I deserved a spanking .
But after the spanking was over (probably during it) I realized I had blown the whole thing out of proportion and she was basically right about it.
It can be an almost surreal experience to one minute be absolutely sure you are right and 10 minutes later admit to yourself the opposite is true. Since apparently you experience the same thing I would love to hear your thoughts on why it works that way. I do have a theory but will wait to hear any thoughts you have
Alan
Alan Wrote: >It can be an almost surreal experience to one minute be absolutely sure you are right and 10 minutes later admit to yourself the opposite is true. Since apparently you experience the same thing I would love to hear your thoughts on why it works that way. I do have a theory but will wait to hear any thoughts you have<
DeleteYeah - it is almost mind boggling sometimes - how a real disciplinary spanking can quickly and genuinely change your complete perspective on an issue. I've been in the same situation - absolutely certain I was right on a particular issue, so much so that I truly resented being ordered to drop my pants for an ass blistering just because I had a different point of view (and one which I knew was right to begin with) - but just a few minutes and a sore, red bottom later, I found that I not only genuinely understood her position but agreed that she was actually right to begin with.
I suspect that this may be related to not being (psychologically) able to refuse a spanking - even when I really don't want one or one that I don't feel I deserve. Perhaps part of the submission implicit in the in the disciplinary wife lifestyle.
But - I would love to hear ZM's thoughts on this issue - as well as Alan's theory. Interesting topic. --al
"But after the spanking was over (probably during it) I realized I had blown the whole thing out of proportion and she was basically right about it." For me this happens even if the absence of spanking, simply with the passage of time. In the heat of the moment, I have a hard time seeing any perspective other than my own. After things cool down, I start to appreciate the extent to which there were at least two legitimate perspective, and mine may have been wrong.
Delete-al & Dan,
DeleteMy explanation for why it happens is that humans’ generally and naughty husbands subject to the paddle in particular have an almost infinite ability to rationalize their behavior so they can believe whatever they need to believe, including that we are right ( whatever the issue) and she is wrong or unfair). In my case (I won’t pre-judge others motivation) the motivation to rationalize is partly ego but a lot of it is simply the desire to avoid a painful punishment. But after that is no longer possible and a punishment is over the need to rationalize is reduced or gone completely. In fact once the punishment just begins the incentives all begun to run in the opposite direction –toward admitting you were wrong and seeking her forgiveness to reduce the duration and severity of the punishment. The paddle can be a great truth serum by letting me see my behavior in a much clearer light at the same time accepting the consequences for that behavior with a positive attitude.
Alan
Hi Alan,
DeleteI was just sitting down here to write a comment, since you asked me what I thought. Interestingly, what I was thinking of writing was pretty much exactly what you said. It is mostly a mixture of ego and wanting to avoid punishment. When I am called on something, my ego tends to immediately inflate and I become defensive. I may or may not be correct, but at least I am sure! And then that momentarily inflated ego fights hard to not be punished, since punishment is particularly hard on the ego.
And you are completely right about the motivations switching. Once the punishment happens, there is no longer the possibility of avoiding it, and also my ego is probably knocked down a little lower than normal.
One primary thing that I was going to say is that for my wife and I, DD is first and foremost a very powerful form of communication. Other than the ego problem of not wanting to be called wrong, and the obvious desire to avoid a punishment, in many cases I am convinced I am right simply because I have seen things only from my perspective, rather than how my wife or others perceive things. So quite often, after my ego is temporarily out of the way, I am able to really see and understand what my wife is seeing, thinking and feeling. Understanding her and seeing things from her perspective often completely changes what I think about something. I think that is pretty close to where you ended: "The paddle can be a great truth serum by letting me see my behavior in a much clearer light at the same time accepting the consequences for that behavior with a positive attitude."
-ZM
ZM,
DeleteI think you nail it by emphasizing the egos role in it. When she finds a way to deal with that ego (which can be temporarily deflating it) she frees you up to see thing much more clearly and also to accept her authority. Spanking does remove the male ego as an impediment to honest communication. It is hard to let go of that ego but the rewards are worth it. The former girlfriend who introduced me to DD told me that I was an entirely different person after a spanking –and at a different time she told me she could not imagine being in a relationship with me without that “sanction” as she called it. In both cases I think she was talking about managing my ego.
Alan
Alan wrote (responding to ZM):
Delete>ZM, I think you nail it by emphasizing the egos role in it. When she finds a way to deal with that ego (which can be temporarily deflating it) she frees you up to see thing much more clearly and also to accept her authority. Spanking does remove the male ego as an impediment to honest communication<
Excellent summation! Spanking is indeed an excellent male ego deflator.
I appreciated Dan's comment as well:
(In response to coming around to see it the wife's way) -
>For me this happens even if the absence of spanking, simply with the passage of time. <
I find this true as well - but will add that a sound spanking definitely speeds up the process! (for me, anyway).
--al
I am curious as to whether Anne's pre-spanking 'ritual' or routine has changed now that you are using OTK and a single implement ? You mentioned she used to keep you waiting while she 'disappeared' for a while in the bathroom and then delivered a lengthy lecture before having you bend over.
ReplyDeleteI believe ordering you to get in position was one of her favourite aspects ?
Does she lecture while you are OTK now like my wife?
I would say that, across the board, our "ritual" practices have been scaled back this year, and I think that is generally a good thing.
DeleteRight down to business then !
Delete--al here:
ReplyDeleteGreat discussion on openness and whether DD is becoming more prevalent. I think that is obvious that "kinky spanking play" has become far more socially acceptable in the last couple of decades - the "Shades of Gray" series undoubtedly had a lot to do with that (as Dan mentioned). And - probably shifting societal norms to more sexual openness - it's ok to be gay, bi, poly, kinky, etc. But as to DD in particular - I really don't know that I see an indication of any really significant increase based on the forums I've followed over the last 20 or so years. But, honestly, that really is only an anecdotal indicator at best. Dan's blog statistics are probably more telling.
We have perhaps become somewhat more open as the years have gone on - certainly not as terrified of being outed as we were in the beginning. My wife's sister discovered our secret years ago when she overheard a spanking - and has since witnessed many of my spankings, as well as participating herself on occasion (turned out that she had always found adult spanking intriguing - and quickly came to enjoy the power of wielding a paddle) She has spanked a number of guys herself since discovering our secret, after perfecting her skills on my bare behind (I do wear a jock strap if we know that she is going to join in or spank me herself - but there have been several occasions where she joined in a spanking where I was fully exposed. But this has never been an issue as she occasionally visits a local nudist resort - and is completely unphased by nudity).
We have a good friend who is very into kink (one of my wife's old college girl friends). She confided that to us a few years back - which led to us confiding in her. She has also spanked me a number of times since. (She is the lady I mentioned in a previous post who went from sub to switch to domme as the decades passed). And - we both make all kinds of allusions to spanking in front of a number of people - but I suspect that they would guess we are just a "little kink". Once, we inadvertently left a real paddle (not a brush) out on the living room sofa (where my wife had toasted my behind just before bedtime the night before). A neighbor lady friend came by the next day and commented on it - where upon my wife just laughed and said that "Al had been misbehaving again". She laughed and glanced my way questioningly - and I added "well, boys will be boys". And that was that - and nothing else was said - but I do wonder what she thought. Probably that we were just kinky. But - of note - years ago that incident would have traumatized me - now it was just good for a laugh. :)
--al again:
ReplyDeleteDan wrote in the OP: >But, the bath brush unquestionably resulted in longer lasting, deeper soreness. By the end of the spanking, the bath brush was causing some numbing, but in fairness it was a longer spanking than she has given me with the hairbrush.<
This reminded me of an article I read somewhere recently that instructed novitiate disciplinary wives on "how to spank a husband". One of the points that she (the author) made was that it was important to keep spanking hard even after the numbness set in - because it was those extra ones - while not as painful at them moment (due to the numbing) - that would guarantee long lasting soreness. The first hundred you feel today - the second hundred you feel for days to come! Based on my experience, I would judge there to be some truth in this advice.
Hi Al, I agree completely that long punishments are more effective, especially for things that require a change of thinking. The purpose of a spanking is not just immediate pain (which can be enough for some things), but also to give a reminder that can be felt for long enough to change our thinking. Or at least that is the way it seems to work for me...
Delete-ZM
-al wrote: “…I do wear a jock strap if we know that she is going to join in or spank me herself - but there have been several occasions where she joined in a spanking where I was fully exposed “
DeleteMy wife was concerned about frontal nudity before spanking me with her sister there. I came up with the idea of the athletic supporter and it has always happened that way. For my wife the jock took the sexuality out of it, but for me I would have been acutely embarrassed to be spanked completely bare in front of her sister even though that is almost always the way it happens when we are alone. My sister in law was interested in spanking her own husband, but my wife never invited her to help discipline me and as far as I know she has no interest in doing so.
Alan
al here:
DeleteOn the topic of long lasting pain and/or soreness from a disciplinary spanking - I am certain that we disciplined husbands can all relate to sitting on a sore behind for at least a couple of days after the spanking. In my experience, after a paddling or strapping, I often find there will be one particular "very sore" spot that I will try to avoid putting too much weight on (probably a spot where the paddle has landed repeatedly - or absorbed some of the hardest whacks). After a particularly severe spanking, the after effects seem to elevate from "soreness" to "painful" when it comes to sitting for any length of time. I suspect other disciplined husbands can relate.
But, after getting switched - at least a 100 strikes with a real switch from the outdoors or the DWC mini-cane (that we call "the switch" -it is a plastic cane about as thick as an extra thick straw and a couple of feet long) - always makes my bottom feel "like a stinging torn up mess" for the next two or three days. It is a different kind of soreness that is often genuinely painful to sit on for at least a couple of days. Anyone else experienced this situation? --al
Hi al. She's never used a switch on me, so I haven't had that experience. But, I have had a bit of that "torn up mess" sensation when the implement she used--particularly one of the bath brushes--has a somewhat rough surface that abrades the skin.
DeleteHi Al, I have also never been switched, but I have experienced exactly what you are describing I think. I think it is the difference between deep soreness (which is the result of muscle bruising) and intense surface irritation (basically skin damage). While both hurt, they feel entirely different.
Delete-ZM
I will just add that switching is not one of her preferred methods - as she really enjoys the sound of wood or leather on my bare behind. But she finds it useful when others are in the house and noise is a concern. --al
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteAlan wrote (responding to my comment about my sister in law spanking me):
ReplyDelete>My sister in law was interested in spanking her own husband, but my wife never invited her to help discipline me and as far as I know she has no interest in doing so.<
After witnessing a couple of my spankings, my sister-in-law (who is single, by the way) told my wife that she thought she could really get into spanking as she had had a bit of an interest in adult spanking already (and is just generally open minded). The ladies got to talking and eventually my wife volunteered me for "spanking practice" - so it was all in "fun" so to speak, although the spankings were still "real" and it was initially a bit embarrassing for me (with me having all the normal spankee reactions as my sister-in-law administered the paddle). But - after a couple of times - the shock was over. She has on occasion given me proxy spankings for my wife when my wife was out of town or under the weather.
Our kinky friend just spanks me for fun - and although she leaves me with a red, sore behind, it is a different kind of spanking experience. My wife loves watching.
A couple of years back - after my wife and I talked about how she might feel about spanking another man, our kinky lady friend arranged for her to spank another man that our friend spanked on occasion. The friend and I got to watch. My wife definitely enjoyed it - and has spanked him a few more times since. (And is possibly open to spanking other men as well - that our friend has "vetted" - but really waiting to get a little further away from the pandemic - although we have both been vaccinated).
Anyone else had any similar experiences - or talked about it?
--al
I haven't had any similar experiences, and if Anne has any interest in spanking another man, she hasn't shared that with me. While I doubt it will ever happen, I admit that something in me resonates hard with some of the stories Tomy has shared about being sent off to another wife for a spanking and about other men being sent to his home for a spanking from Aunt Kay.
Delete