“It may be a man's world, but men are easily controlled by women.” ― Ashly Lorenzana
Hello all. Welcome back to the Disciplinary Couples Club. Our weekly gathering of men and women who are in, or would like to be in, Domestic Discipline relationships.
I hope you all had a great week. It was bitter cold where we live. I did get in a few hikes in the snow with the dogs, which nice if a little physically challenging.
In a sad testament that 2020
so far looks a lot like 2021, I spent way too much time watching a “trial” of the
weightiest of issues the outcome of which was beginning to end a foregone
conclusion. At least when it was over, I
didn’t have to listen to a lot of contrived rationalizations from the Profiles
in Perfidity crowd. May we now finally
move on? Somehow, I doubt it.
I assume others may have shared my distraction or come up with their own, as we didn’t get nearly as much discussion about as I anticipated on the popular topic of “witnesses,” this time with a nearly exhaustive set of sub-topics. But, since it is so popular, I will continue to try to think of other possible spins on it.
This week’s topic took me an unusually long time to prepare. Not because writing it up took a lot of time, but because even though it is sort of related to witnesses—a topic for which there is no shortage of relevant spanking art and captioned pictures—it took me hours of going through my spanking art archives to find anything that fit the topic, and none of what I found was directly on point. So, I’m stretching a bit to make some of these meet the subject.
The topic is outsourcing punishments to third parties. A few weeks ago, one of our group (I think either Alan or ZM) left the following comment:
Now as far as "outsourcing" punishment, that would definitely work. If my wife decided that I was to be punished and sent me to someone else for them to punish me, whether it was a professional or just a friend, that would still very, very much seem like genuine punishment. In fact, because of the embarrassment factor, it would seem super intense, whether she spanked hard or not.
I’ve thought more than a few times about the scenario of Anne ordering me to take a spanking from someone else, either to increase the punishment in some way or, perhaps, because she was away from home or physically unable to deliver a well-deserved punishment spanking. When I’ve thought about that scenario, for some reason it usually involves being spanked by another man, though I’m not intending to take this topic in that direction specifically.
It probably shouldn’t surprise me that one of the first times I recall encountering this topic it involved spankings from a mother-in-law, which is a pretty prevalent theme in spanking art and stories. I’m pretty sure a story called Military Duty Calls in the “Real People section of the Disciplinary Wives Club website, http://auntkaysdwc.com/abegin.htm, that I read very soon after finding the website was the first I encountered that dealt specifically with a wife deciding to “outsource” her spanking role to another woman. The story involved a Disciplinary Wife who was a member of the U.S. military and was leaving the country on a deployment. She asked her mother to assume disciplinary responsibility over the husband in her absence. Something I liked about the story was that wife stayed pretty firmly in control, laying out the rules and the process for her husband before she left and staying informed as her mother inevitably had to take things in hand. As I recall, she also spanked him again herself when she got back, as she had said she would when putting the process in place.
However, when I set out to prepare this post, that DWC story was really one of the only examples I could find of stories, drawings or captioned photos related to “outsourcing.” I found this example from Barbar O’Toole, that for whatever reason I’ve always interpreted as a mother outsourcing her son’s spanking to an aunt or other relative.
It also occurred to me that there is one fairly common “real world” example of “outsourcing”—one that some of us may even have experienced personally—namely, a frustrated mother leaving a punishment spanking for dad to take care of when he gets home.
I also found this captioned picture with a slightly different spin on the spanking in boarding school trip, with the text suggesting a mother sending her son to boarding school for the specific purpose of outsourcing some deserved discipline.
But, I found very little on the topic of a wife sending her husband to another woman for a spanking, or having another woman carry out a disciplinary spanking because the wife wasn’t available or couldn’t do it for some reason, or for some other reason.
What are your thoughts on “outsourcing” punishment? Would it feel like real punishment, or like some kind of kink? If a spanking were to be outsource who would you as the spankee “prefer” take on the spanking role, if you had to choose someone? For you wives, would you ever consider letting someone else give your husband a real disciplinary spanking? Why or why not? Who would it be?
Tomy, I know you both experienced this and witnessed other men being sent to Aunt Kay for a spanking. I hope you will share a few of those experiences with us.
Have a great week.
Prior to his untimely death, a male friend of mine would occasionally discipline Shilo in my absence. I do miss his ability to get under Shilo's skin.
ReplyDeleteSounds like Shilo did find those uncomfortable in more than the usual sense?
DeleteYou would think that I would have experience with this but I don’t. While it is part of our arrangement to have others contribute or even participate in their own right, the notion of having to be sent to someone else makes me bristle.
ReplyDeleteI suppose if there was some sort of temporary infirmity preventing Rosa from dealing with me herself, I could accept it. But since we have been lucky in this regard, such an arrangement has not been necessary.
As I was writing this post, I was thinking--I now realize wrongly--of your adventures with Nickki as an example of outsourced spankings. But, I guess they really aren't given that she has spanked you for offenses against *her*, not against Rosa or someone else.
DeleteI think it's the flavor of the post seeming specific to a spouse who outsources to others. In that regard, 'yes' I am not in that situation nor would want to be unless, as stated, some condition made it necessary. BUT, after seeing your comment I thought a bit 'out of the box' and wondered, "What about someone with authority, who is NOT a spouse, outsourcing TO the spouse?" Because THAT situation I am quite well versed with in terms of Ana, Marta, and even Nickki (initially).
DeletePerhaps it's different though and I would say for me it is. When a trusted person recommends a spanking to a wife of the miscreant, it seems like it's still the wife who is teaching the lesson. The difference is really dependent on the situation and people involved. With Marta, I didn't think of it as 'outsourced' since Rosa has always been complicit in or even directly responsible for Marta's 'punishments', and Nickki now takes care of her own issues directly, but Ana's DO feel like an outsourcing of sorts. And I even feel like the way Rosa handles Ana's decreed punishments resembles an outsourcing. Whereas with Marta, Rosa is usually involved, often Rosa is unaware of the reasons for Ana's punishments other than what she has said in her slips, or to me. Rosa then kind of acts like a "third party" who takes the request VERY seriously but often is not as vested in the offense.
If I think of Ana's as outsourced, I can relate to the question more directly. And I will say they do not seem less real or more kink-driven. In fact, it is the opposite. I do think the way Rosa handles her daughter's requests has a lot to do with it though. Ana and I both know that there is little chance that any request Ana makes will be ignored or refuted by her mother, even if she tacks on some astronomical amount like she is known to do. Ana has had this authority for years now going back to when she was still fairly young. In all that time there might have been ONE spanking her mother ignored, but I am not even sure about that, so I think her track record is 100% or 99.9% at worst. Because of that I can't help but take Ana's feelings seriously .....and she knows it too. THAT is significant.
So I can relate to this after all, just not in the way initially presented. I would truly never want Rosa to send me to someone else for something she was upset over. That's her privilege, and the reconciliation that comes from a disciplinary spanking would be short-circuited by eliminating Rosa from the comeuppance, probably the not resulting in the 'blank slate' we seek.
I guess this wasn't what you were after. It seems to have fallen flat. LOL
DeleteDidn't fall flat with me. Just tied up on a bunch of stuff yesterday and response time got erratic. While you're right that outsourcing *to* the spouse, wasn't part of the main topic, it fits in. I've always thought it would be interesting to have someone who is around me a lot, who could rat me out for behavior that Anne might not necessarily see, such as work behavior that has a bad effect on myself or on others but that Anne might not necessarily see or might not be impacted by personally.
DeleteOh OK. I'm glad you replied. I felt bad about somewhat dismissing the topic as not pertinent to my experience and then realized "duh". It kind of IS. LOL And yeah, that would be interesting. But it's weird how different the various women with authority in my life "play out" in my mind. I have Rosa who deals with me herself. And then there's Marta who rarely, though has been a factor. Yet because her participation needs some sort of encouragement from Rosa, I don't see it too much as "outsourcing". And Nickki has been both, but because of being hands on now, outsourcing is moot. But Ana as I wrote is truly outsourcing. She may not be a spouse but her relationship to me with DD is kind of established. Her authority is recognized. She functions independently with her occasional encouragement coming mostly from me in a kind of "green light" sort of way. She also fully recognizes spanking as the "go to" punishment for me, except she herself is not going to do it. Yet she still wants THAT to be the penalty, so to achieve that, she "outsources" her wishes to a third party who in this case is my wife and her mother. It is interesting that the punishment for my behavior at her graduation came from Nickki, but it is a bit different in that Ana did not request it and Nickki was doing it because SHE was bothered, not Ana. Still, Ana as you may recall, was very happy about how it all played out.
DeleteAnother thing is that I am well used to being spanked by Rosa, but there is something different for me when the impending punishment is not from her and in fact has to do with something that had no impact on her. She truly acts like a professional executioner of sorts......impartial to the details but duty-bound to carry out the sentence.
Lots and lots of permutations going on here in terms of who was doing the spanking and whether it was for themselves, others or both. I'm going to have to figure out a way to do a topic on that.
DeleteMy visits to professional disciplinarians are me sending myself to others to be soundly spanked. As discussed on here previously it is about 5 levels higher an experience than what I get off Mrs GL. As I have also shared at no time with pro's do I get the sexual parts an home smacked bottom gives me and I like to keep it that way. Cheers GLM.
ReplyDeleteAgreed, visiting a pro is not really what I'm getting at with this topic.
DeleteDan, thanks for the invitation to comment.
ReplyDeleteI'd have to say that the occasions, which were not all that common, when a husband had to show up at hour house for a session with Aunt Kay, were the most impactful and dramatic of times for me associated with the DWC. In most cases I already knew the guy. But not always. I usually had a few polite words with the guy, but then had to remove myself from any proximity.
It seemed that there was a certain peace about them afterwards. Maybe just relief it was over and maybe the embarrassment factor had subsided.
I know that for me, the few times I had to drive somewhere carrying a note from her to a DWC wife, was for sure the most agonizing driving time I have experienced. And knocking on that door...OMG.
I'm curious, was there anything notable about the outsourced punishments in terms of severity? Alan has noted that when he's been subjected to witnessed spankings, his wife spanks even harder than usual, almost like she is demonstrating her seriousness to the witness. Did you find that the outsourced punishers tended to spank especially hard, or were they more "forgiving" since it was another woman's husband? In the DWC story I referenced above, it does seem like the mother-in-law wants to demonstrate her competence as a spanker by delivering a very hard spanking.
DeleteAlso, I'd be curious about the outsourced spanker's demeanor.
Dan and Tomy, I am also curious about the demeanor of the women giving the outsourced spankings. If I imagine myself as a member of a women's club dedicated to spanking not only our own husbands, but one another's husbands, that feels really kinky to me. Though I was vanilla as concerns spanking prior to FLR, it has become somewhat erotic to me now. I think it is my consciousness of its power over my husband that has eroticized it for me. So if I was sending my husband to other women for spankings and spanking their husbands, that would feel to me like a form of spouse swapping. I know spanking isn't sex, but I would feel that I was interacting sexually with another woman's husband, especially if nudity or partial nudity was involved. I hope my spouse swapping analogy isn't offensive to the disciplinary spirit of the DWC, but that's how I would feel about it. The purpose of actual "wife swapping", as I understand it, is for couples to spice up their sex lives by breaking out of the monotony of monogamous sex. Would "outsourcing" of spankings not serve the same purpose for DD?
DeleteDanielle
Dan,
ReplyDeleteIf I were a different type and my husband were open to it, I might outsource punishment. I know he would be embarrassed. I think feeling embarrassed might be why he hasn't commented here in a long time. That's a little confusing because I think he likes to feel submissive but I can see he acts a little embarrassed by how red his face gets sometimes. When I gave him panties and matching bra sets for Christmas he got bright red. It was done in private but he never-the-less acted that way. I think he's got enough on his mind when he sees just me walking toward him carrying a cane.
Have a nice week,
Carol H.
Hi Carol. I kind of get it. For some, the embarrassment itself is part of the draw to DD and FLR relationships.
DeleteHi Dan and Carol,
DeleteFor me the embarrassment is probably much of the draw to DD and FLR, since I don't particularly like pain! However, I also don't like embarrassment at all and generally try to avoid it at all costs in life, so it is also something that I love to hate, but apparently somehow crave.
-ZM
ZM wrote: >>>For me the embarrassment is probably much of the draw to DD and FLR, since I don't particularly like pain! However, I also don't like embarrassment at all and generally try to avoid it at all costs in life, so it is also something that I love to hate, but apparently somehow crave.<<<
DeleteZM, by your account, you are very similar to my husband. He has a normal person’s desire to avoid pain and embarrassment, but as a sexual masochist he is turned on by both of those things in the context of DD and FLR.
Danielle
ZM, Danielle
DeleteJust a threat of doing something can embarrass my husband! I bought him fishnet tights and told him that when he least expects it he's going to be told to wear them under his normal clothes when he goes food shopping. He turned tomato red. Another time I threatened make him wear his collar to the store, which he would want to conceal and which would be embarrassing to him if anyone were to see it. Like Danielle, I think my hubby is also a "sexual masochist" when it comes to DD and the FLR nature of our marriage. He enjoys the teasing and the kinky threats, and he's openly confessed that they keep him in line.
Carol H.
Hi Carol,
DeleteI can see where threatening can be pretty embarrassing, if for no other reason that the reason you are able to threaten it is because you have the power to follow through with it if you want.
I think I am more of a masochist when it comes to embarrassment than I am with pain. But in both cases, I both dread them and crave them.
-ZM
ZM,
Delete"I think I am more of a masochist when it comes to embarrassment than I am with pain. But in both cases, I both dread them and crave them."
I think my submissive husband may also be a masochist for both, and that's part of the reason I settled on using a cane in his discipline. He craved this and wanted this relationship because he thought it made him a more organized person with better habits. I think it has but he probably likes the kink. He's now wiser spending money and thinks things through instead of merely acting on impulse. Discipline isn't just to satisfy his kink though. I'm not going to unnecessarily hurt him, but I'm giving him the strong discipline he craves, when necessary. There's going to be some of kink he wants (I like it too as hubby is learning), but he knows that I follow through with a threat. He knows not to cross me and it's been great for our marriage. I know him so well by now. Since we've stepped up DD and FLR aspects of our marriage, we've been closer emotionally and physically. He wasn't this affectionate when we were first married, so I know DD and a FLR worked for us.
Carol H.
Beyond Tomy’s posts and some information I remember from the DWC site. I have no lived experience with this. Neither women who spanked me in front of a witness expressed any notion of “outsourcing” future discipline so it hasn’t come up although in addition to the DWC site there have been several accounts on the net of women who did some “outsourcing”. It would seem to lend itself to women who have close confidants who also discipline at home or access to what I presume to be a tightly knit group such as the DWC under Aunt Kay. I can think of several reasons a women might use it if available to her. As a husband I don’t know what my reaction would be if my wife sent me to another women for discipline. I hope I would obey her and am pretty certain I would. But as Tomy seems to suggest I think I would have mixed feeling at best about it. If it happened I would want my wife to be there but I guess that would defeat the purpose of “outsourcing”. It would definitely be humbling and probably very effective as discipline if used only infrequently. But unlike most scenarios associated with spanking, I have no fantasy about it and think it would be pure punishment to experience
ReplyDeleteAlan
Thanks, Alan. It's interesting that you have had fantasies about witnesses (though you've experienced that the reality is much different from the fantasy) but have none about an outsourced spanking. They seem at least somewhat similar to me, though they apparent press much different buttons.
DeleteFor me, outsourcing spanking does resonate with me (hence my comment about it that Dan referenced above), but it is not something that I have thought much about at all.
Delete-ZM
Dan wrote: “It's interesting that you have had fantasies about witnesses …. but have none about an outsourced spanking.”. Dan, for me my relationship with the disciplinarian is the key to it all. I would not want to be spanked by a woman who I did not have a close trusting relationship with and somewhat conversely I believe any woman who did spank me would change any relationship I had before with her. In fact that actually happened with my sister in law who only witnessed (several times) me receiving a discipline spanking. Maybe the best way I can explain my feelings here is to reference my former girlfriend who introduced me to DD. We have no romantic feelings remaining although we are cordial. But if she suddenly decided she was going to administer a spanking (which she would not do) I honestly don’t know what would happen. The fact that she spanked me and knows that I can be spanked (and all the little triggers) gives her a lot of power. She said to me one time something like “Alan, you gave me this authority (to spank) and you can’t ever take it way” That for me is in a convoluted way of explaining why it is essential it all happens in a close trusting relationship. Once a woman has spanked me that crosses the Rubicon for me and so being sent to someone for a “casual” spanking just would not work unless my wife was there or somehow was delegating her authority in a very clear manner
DeleteAlan
" ... it is essential it all happens in a close trusting relationship."
DeleteAlan, I agree with this.
Belle
There’s only one criteria for me. If there’s a real offense, then the spanking will feel like real punishment. Fortunately for me, it’s simple like that. Being spanked as an adult is always going to be kinky to me no matter how it’s performed, but if the reason for it is to punish misbehavior or failure of some kind, then I can’t imagine a more effective way to motivate or influence me through applied discipline. It would take a lot to convince me that any man or woman acting to punish me for my wife (except a pro) isn’t kinky.
ReplyDeleteI would much prefer my wife choose the spanker and that it be her idea, for whatever reason, that outsourcing is the way to go. Whether the disciplinarian is pro or not, friend or stranger, male or female, older or younger or whatever, if she’s managing it, then, for all intents and purposes, the spanking is still from her and, hopefully, satisfies her on both pragmatic and sexual levels. The humiliation factor would vary depending on her choice.
It's interesting that you don't see a pro as kinky. I see that as kind of totally about kink.
DeleteThat’s not what I meant. A pro disciplinarian could be turned on by spanking, but they also could be doing it as a business and an impersonal service they provide for money. So I’m not going to question a pro’s motivation like I would someone acting to spank another adult simply out of a willingness to help a family member, friend or stranger. IOWs, a pro disciplinarian is what they claim to be. They spank paying clients, and that’s the service my wife would be hiring. Anyone else, I’m going to wonder what business is it of theirs to be disciplining me. I’m not saying I couldn’t be convinced, I’d just have to understand what’s in it for them. Until convinced otherwise, I’d assume it’s because they get off on the scene, which, as long as they qualify for the position, is fine by me.
DeleteI agree with both of you. Likely most pros start with at least some kink motivation. My impression is that the majority started as bottoms and may still be a bottom in their personal life. But I think the best of them who stay active become “coaches” as some style themselves or informal therapists. But if you spank several people (perhaps in a day) the kink factor has to lose its novelty, especially if you are a bottom who isn’t all that sexually interested in spanking someone. The closest I have come to a pro is a friend of my wife’s who worked part time when she was in grad school, so I might be wrong here. But from listening to her and reading the comments of some pros on line, I think it becomes pretty clinical to them after a while –which actually would make a pro a pretty good choice for non-sexual discipline
DeleteAlan
I think you’re right, Alan. I don’t know any pro disciplinarians, but I’ve read the writings of quite a few from profiles, Q&A’s, and various web musings. My impression of a typical pro who specializes in purely disciplinary spanking is that she understands the fetish because she shares the fetish and has turned her knowledge and passion into a commodity for sale, not really different than anyone lucky enough to make a living doing what they love or at least enjoy. However, it’s a job to do, a service to provide for a client. The feelings aren’t the same as spanking is in a personal relationship like spouse or close friend, and not necessarily sexual gratification for her. For the one being spanked, I think the most realistic way of looking at it is that you are one of many paying customers, and your disciplinarian is just doing her job. The personal gratification she gets from the interaction may be unknown and none of our business, but the good ones typically provide a level of personal care and nurturing that can satisfy in a deeper way than would a dry business transaction.
DeleteBrett and Alan, my husband tells me that the professional disciplinarian he went to saw herself as a kind of therapist. He says that during the hour-long session, she would transition between the fictional role of angry boss and the real life role of caring therapist. Between spankings she would question him about his mental state, advise him to drink water to keep hydrated, praise him for taking the spanking well, and give him pointers on how to get into a mental state to endure the pain still to come. Then she would shift smoothly back into the role of angry, scolding boss and take him back over her knee for another round. Wayne compared her double personality of caring therapist and angry disciplinarian to a good cop-bad cop routine that broke down his defenses enough to allow him to cry. He says he was able to "let go" because he felt like she understood him and cared for his well-being. He asked her whether she liked to receive spankings too, and she told him she used to be both a top and a bottom, but she eventually decided she only wanted to top, and she saw a business opportunity in meeting a need some people have for spanking discipline. She considered herself to be a "professional disciplinarian", not a sex worker, but she obviously understood the sexual nature of her service because she advised Wayne to refrain from masturbating for at least 48 hours so as to get "the full psychological benefit" of the spanking.
DeleteIf a wife wanted to outsource her husband's discipline, I suppose a professional disciplinarian would be a safe choice because of her professional detachment from clients. She told him clearly that their relationship was purely professional and that she would NOT welcome any contact outside of that framework. But I must confess that part of the anger I felt when Wayne told me about her was based on jealousy that in one session she was able to do something for him that was, by his own account, deeply emotional.
Danielle
Danielle: "But I must confess that part of the anger I felt when Wayne told me about her was based on jealousy that in one session she was able to do something for him that was, by his own account, deeply emotional."
DeleteI also see it as deeply personal and, though there’s no sexual contact beyond the spanking itself, it can be sexual. I wouldn’t blame my wife for being angry for a variety of reasons, which is why I feel any “outsourced” discipline must be completely open and accepted by both wife and husband. If it creates resentment and drives us apart, it’s hardly worth pursuing.
Danielle here:
ReplyDeleteDan, for a man like my husband, spankings can be disciplinary, but they can never be “purely” disciplinary. They are also always sexual. Therefore, as I see it, I would be outsourcing more than discipline.
That professional disciplinarian Wayne saw told him that one of her clients was a retired dominatrix who outsourced her partner's discipline to her because doing it herself felt too much like work. Wayne says he was half-hoping I might agree to an arrangement like that. Fat chance! For one thing, professional “discipline” is expensive! Come to think of it, if it was truly a non-sexual service, like therapeutic massage, why is it 3 times more expensive than therapeutic massage?
I certainly wouldn't outsource my husband's discipline to anyone who isn't close to me. I may have him spanked by my friend Barb in the future, since she has expressed an interest in trying her hand at it. Wayne says he "doesn't know" whether he wants that, but I know him well enough to know that when he doesn't clearly say no, he wants to say yes, but that yes is struggling against inhibition. Basically, he wants me to overcome his inhibitions by deciding for him. I can do that.
Your questions got me to wondering how I would feel about disciplining a man other than my husband. Though I don't have a spanking kink, I think I could enjoy spanking another man under the right circumstances. But it would have to be a guy I found attractive. Spanking a guy I didn’t find attractive would feel...yucky. Dan, some months ago you posted a picture I found sexy, the one of that guy in a barn bent over a hay bale with his pants down. The thought of paddling that guy's bum gave me an erotic frisson. But I think it was because the guy looked so damned sexy, with his broad muscular back and shoulders and his hard, manly little bum. Who wouldn’t want to paddle a bum like that! Lol (For some reason my husband was surprised when I revealed to him that some of us women are just as appreciative of sexy men's bums as men are of sexy women's bums).
By the way, I find it interesting that all of the images you used to illustrate the topic are highly sexual. That's why they seemed a little off-topic to you, I suppose? In the drawing of the naked young man awaiting the belt, the artist has given him an exaggeratedly shapely bum. I find the Barbara O’Toole drawing fascinating. As you say, it appears to be a mother outsourcing the task of disciplining her son to another woman, maybe an aunt or a friend. The mother making the okay sign looks happy that the other woman has offered to relieve her of an onerous task. But the expression on the other woman's face, as she rolls up her sleeve, suggests that she is going to enjoy spanking the young man. Tellingly, her back is turned to the mother, so her look of anticipation is hidden from the mother. The implication seems to be that the mother is naive about the sexual motive of the woman who has offered to be of service. Or am I reading too much into the drawing?
Danielle, your interpretation of the Barbara O'Toole drawing is much different from mine, and yours may make more sense. I have always interpreted the mom's "OK" sign as a "good job" to the "aunt" for a job already well done and the aunt rolling her sleeves down after having delivered the spanking. You see the aunt's expression as anticipation, while I've interpreted as self-satisfaction and apres-spanking pride. But, what has never made sense about my interpretation is the son's derriere does not show any marks from a recently delivered spanking. So, your interpretation as a whole seems to make a lot more sense than mine.
DeleteDan, as you point out, the boy’s bottom isn’t red. That’s why I think the woman is rolling her sleeves up in preparation for a spanking to come. But now that you have described her expression as self-satisfaction, I see it that way too. That suggests to me the following interpretation. The mother has asked a friend for advice on how to deal with her son's terrible behavior. The friend has come over to show her how to discipline a naughty boy. There has been a contest of wills between the boy and his mother’s friend, which the boy has lost. In fact, the woman’s authoritarian manner has so impressed the boy that he has obeyed her command to strip and assume that position. His face is red, and his bottom will soon match it. The mother is making the okay sign because she is amazed and pleased at the friend's ability to bring her rebellious son to such a state of submission. The friend's smile could express self-satisfaction at bringing the boy to heel as well as anticipation of the pleasure she is going to get from spanking some manners into him. Maybe she has turned away from the others because she is going to get the hairbrush in her purse. I’m sorry if my foray into spanking art analysis is somewhat off topic, but that drawing intrigued me.
DeleteDanielle
Dan and Danielle, I expect everyone will see the scene depicted in the drawing as it suits their own preferences. I’m not sure what the relationships are, but the two women are satisfied that justice is about to be served. The woman rolling up her sleeve is the disciplinarian, and she is relishing the opportunity. I interpret her facial expression to be saying that, I’ve been wanting to effectively punish this young man for a long time, and I am finally going to have the pleasure of making certain it happens. This is a scene of personal satisfaction for the women and painful humiliation for the boy. There’s nothing sexual implied other than the boy is naked, but that further suggests to me that, to the artist the scene is, without doubt, kinky.
DeleteI see the drawing in terms of relative ages as they appear to me. The middle woman looks older than the one on the right who seems older than the boy in the corner. The middle woman is giving the "OK" which to me means SHE is the one with the actual right/authority to discipline the boy, but is relinquishing that to the other person.....who I am going to say is an older sister somehow wronged by her brother and Mom is saying, "you can deal with him, yourself. OK by me."
DeleteAnd just as a stickler of sorts, my only exception is to calling this a 'drawing' since I firmly believe O-Toole's work relies heavily on photo sources that are then very skillfully combined and colored over.
Hi Danielle,
Delete"Dan, for a man like my husband, spankings can be disciplinary, but they can never be “purely” disciplinary. They are also always sexual. Therefore, as I see it, I would be outsourcing more than discipline." - Certainly true for me as well. Spanking can be very real, but still it is also at least somewhat sexual to me.
"Wayne says he 'doesn't know' whether he wants that, but I know him well enough to know that when he doesn't clearly say no, he wants to say yes, but that yes is struggling against inhibition. Basically, he wants me to overcome his inhibitions by deciding for him. I can do that." - Again, this really resonates with me. For me, it is not only overcoming inhibitions by having her decide but also because I genuinely want all these things and yet very much don't want them at the same time! And I commend you on your attitude of "I can do that." Bravo! You are a very wise wife.
If you do send him to Barb, please share with us!
-ZM
Dan, Brett, Danielle, and KD,
DeleteI loved seeing your descriptions of what you think is going on in the pictures. That is the thing that I love about spanking pictures (as opposed to video's); they leave open to the viewer to interpret what is going on, so each person seeing it can have a different view of what is happening, shaped by their own experiences and fantasies.
That is also why I love captions so much (sorry KD). Each one is a mini fantasy just waiting to be filled out the rest of the way by my very overactive imagination!
-ZM
Brett, I agree with you that it is possible to interpret the women’s sense of satisfaction in a non-sexual way. I think you are right that it is the boy’s gratuitous nudity that makes the image kinky. Why would the boy be required to strip naked for a spanking? In fact, it is possible to administer a spanking without even baring the bottom, isn’t it? I suspect that images like that appeal mainly to men who fantasize about being disciplined like naughty little boys, but in a manner that is way more humiliating than any real-life mother would allow for a son. I asked my husband whether he finds that picture erotic. He says it is super-erotic. I asked him why. He says it is because when he imagines himself as that boy, it evokes feelings of embarrassment and vulnerability that are erotic for him.
DeleteDanielle
KD, your interpretation of the picture makes sense too. For me the age difference between the disciplinarian and the boy seemed too great for them to be siblings. That's why I saw her as an aunt or perhaps a younger colleague of the mother. On the other hand, I do know people who have siblings, or half siblings, that are almost a generation older. As to the artistic medium, are you saying that the image isn't a drawing but rather a photographic montage modified to look like a drawing? I find it disturbing to think that the "drawing" of that boy might be derived from a photograph, considering his apparent youthfulness.
DeleteDanielle
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DeleteDanielle, you ask good questions. I think there are multiple possible answers that can apply to various people and situations. If a boy is required to strip for a spanking, what motivates that decision? Why do we fantasize it, and how do we rationalize it? We may just get kinky pleasure from the exposure and embarrassment, but can we justify it as discipline? My fetish requires that the ritual of spanking be legitimate punishment, nothing sexually gratuitous. Practically speaking, the bottom should be bared in order to make it more vulnerable to the pain being applied, and also so the disciplinarian is able to see and better judge the physical state of the target. But why total nudity? I can rationalize forced nudity as punitive. Humiliation is emotional pain inflicted, and it can serve to amplify the shame of having to be punished, or humble one who has shown arrogance. I can rationalize it as a method to more clearly demonstrate authority and control, who the parent is, who the child is, who is dependent, must obey and should remember their place. Would a real life parent choose to inflict such pain? Impose such authority? I know some really have or do to some degree, so the fantasy is not stretching things into the realm of the impossible. It also may be worth noting that, if the boy is fully dressed for his punishment, that doesn’t preclude the possibility that the whole scenario isn’t sexual or an erotic fantasy.
DeleteDanielle: If you look at O-Toole's work as an entire body you'll see some pieces where it is clearly a manipulated photo. (Even the great Eric Stanton experimented with this for a period) Now with computers, such a technique is rampant. There are several reasons I think my theory is correct. As someone with an art background (MFA from Pratt) my own gut finds the rendering of the 'space' around her figures to be inconsistent with how it would appear if the entire scene was drawn. (For a comparison, check out RedRump's work which is pretty realistic and definitely drawn.) Instead her figures seem...... placed, like cut-outs into a space rather than rendered figures created in that space. (It's hard to explain) I will say that as "manip" art goes, she is extremely skilled. Also, when modifying a photo a lot can be altered, and it is even possible to blend drawing and media manipulation in the same piece. I think some of her more natural-looking pieces may have that combination.
DeleteI could do an entire post on what I've found. There is even a drawing Dan used to use of woman in a chair with a paddle. It looked pretty good. And if you're lucky and searching spanking photos, you can find the original photograph that that drawing was obviously traced over. You wouldn't believe the things I've found: stolen work, altered work, colorized work, CAPTIONED work LOL. The one saving grace on bad drawings is that they probably ARE actual drawings! LOL
I don't have your trained eye, but I do agree that *some* of O'Toole's stuff does seem to be "drawn" over a photograph. Though, I'm not sure that is true of all of it. She has a few pieces that don't have that feel. Honestly, the one I posted doesn't feel that way to me, though several others do. For me, the reason I seldom post her doesn't have anything to do with her technique but, rather, that so many of her "drawings" do revolve around young subjects. I debated whether to post this one, but honestly it was one of the only ones in my entire collection that seemed to fit a post on "outsourcing." She has others that I really like because of a particular mood or setting they convey, but I really wish she made the spanking recipients several years older.
DeleteDan: "Falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus". And while I don't hold with that for logical reasons, it can be true with regard to someone's overall technique. It seems odd to me that someone would have one way of approaching their art and then switch to another. It makes more sense that one colorized manip was altered more thoroughly and artistically and another was done more minimally, letting more of the photo come through. And to me even the slick stuff has that 'cut-out' feel. But I can't prove it. Stay tuned for a CS post on this.
DeleteKD, I don’t know much about the use of computers to produce art, so I have always naively assumed that if it looks like a drawing, it is a drawing. Thank you for that explanation. My original interpretation of that piece may have been due to a misunderstanding of the medium. I saw significance in the apparent fact that the artist “drew” the disciplinarian with her back to the mother, suggesting to me that she turned away while rolling up her sleeves to hide from the boy’s mother how much she is going to enjoy spanking the boy. But if the image was constructed the way you suggest, by a sort of cut-and-paste technique drawing from photographic sources, the spatial arrangement of the 3 characters probably has no such significance.
DeleteDan, I am bothered by the young subjects in O'Toole's art if they are indeed derived from photos. If they are purely imaginary, that seems less problematic to me, because I think they can be viewed as symbolic representations of "the boy inside the man" that emerges when a grown man is subjected to maternal style discipline.
Danielle
Danielle, I’ve made that argument before defending an adult interest in artistic depictions of childhood punishment. I only know what I see in the art, and it’s always a representation of the “inner child” of an adult, and possibly a personal association or connection to one’s own self as a child, which for many of us is a critical element of that inner child. Of course, a photo of a real child can’t be seen as harmless and therefore acceptable. A drawing derived from a photo can be judged if you have the actual photo as evidence. Here, we have no such evidence. We don’t know that the image of the “boy” came from a posed living person. If it did, we don’t know the age of that model or how the drawing may have been artistically rendered to alter the appearance of that model to possibly make him/her appear younger. On another track, from an artistic standpoint, I experience the finished product. By whatever means the artist used to create their composition, I’m left to appreciate the choices they’ve made.
DeleteMy understanding is that DD is a consensual activity between adults. When there is a minor involved, it can't be consensual. Thus I also don't much care for the O'Toole art with the young man who pretty clearly looks like a teen-aged minor. Could he be 18? Seems like a stretch. Does a mother have the right to treat her minor son the way the picture depicts? That could be argued, but it definitely wouldn't be consensual. Is the "boy" in the picture a representation of the inner child inside a husband? That seems a stretch, too. I don't know. I'm not in an uproar about it, but I would rather see pictures where everyone is clearly an adult and the punishment is clearly consensual.
DeleteOne of the things that turns me on about our DD is that Jimmy goes and gets the bath brush when I tell him to and lowers his pants when I tell him to and gets himself in position when I tell him to and takes the punishment I give him and there is never a word of resistance. His consent to my authority is erotic to me. Plus if he is consenting to all of the above, then he very likely will consent to change the behavior for which I am punishing him! Consensual is to me the most important part of DD.
Obedience is sexy!
DeleteBelle, obedience is a key element of my fetish. My fascination around discipline, centered on spanking, started in childhood. Spanking or any other punishment wasn’t consensual in the sense that parents needed permission from the child. It was about real authority. Having to submit to legitimate authority. I can’t speak for anyone else, but that’s what attracts me to drawings as shown here. I find it more exciting when the child is older and could resist punishment but submits because, despite hating the consequences, something inside recognizes and respects that authority. That’s what I knew growing up. I could have resisted but didn’t. It was partly consensual. It was not DD, and I know when I see a drawing like the one above that it is not a depiction of DD. I would prefer that DD be similar to conditions of a real binding authority, and that’s what I like in an artistic rendition of the idea. The reality of DD must, of course, be completely consensual.
DeleteBelle wrote: “Obedience is sexy! “. I could not agree more and it is mutually sexy. My wife loves expression of my obedience to her especially during discipline but also at other times, but it is also sexy for me to obey her and know she wants and demands obedience. Being obedient to her releases powerful feelings and also peels away layers of resistance to surrendering to her authority. Obedience and the consequences of any disobedience are very big deals to both of us and generates enormous erotic energy
DeleteAlan
Having to submit to legitimate authority is part of the attraction for me, though it's complicated. The attraction to me is when the authority is connected to force of will that is strong enough to overcome any desire to resist. While as a practical matter adult DD surely almost always is consensual--at least DD of the F/m variety--I am definitely attracted to scenarios in which the disciplined party's consent or non-consent seems not to matter -- it is going to happen regardless.
DeleteDan and others: I hope it's OK to put this here, but anyone looking for a more in-depth analysis of O'Toole is invited to visit my blog. (Since O'Toole herself is not the topic for this week but more of a side-discussion, I don't think I'm stealing your readers away. LOL But you can delete this if you want.)
DeleteFine by me
DeleteHi Dan and Alan,
DeleteI am really torn between what both of you wrote. Alan said: "Being obedient to her releases powerful feelings and also peels away layers of resistance to surrendering to her authority." I know this to be true and in my experience, as soon as I start to surrender, I get more and more submissive.
On the other hand, I strongly agree with what you wrote, Dan: "The attraction to me is when the authority is connected to force of will that is strong enough to overcome any desire to resist." I too find it resonates even more with me when it feels imposed, as I have written about many times before.
I especially like what you said about consent or non-consent not really making any difference in the spanking that is inevitably going to follow.
-ZM
To me there is a basic difference between being sent to a pro and being spanked by a wife’s friend. The emotional freight with someone your wife knows (and likely you know) is considerable compared to an impersonal pro. A pro is a little bit like a therapist (some do therapy) and for me there would be a clinical aspect to it. And a man sent to a pro for discipline is likely to get one hell of a spanking given the situation. But sent to a friend or acquaintance of your wife would be incredibly embarrassing. Most likely her SO would know and possibly be present. And the intimacy and reassurance my wife provides would be absent. To me this is a situation not appropriate unless a woman has exhausted all other disciplinary remedies available to her. And even then I think a pro is a better choice
ReplyDeleteAlan
Hi Alan,
DeleteDefinitely agree that it would be much more embarrassing to be spanked by a friend of my wife than a pro.
"To me this is a situation not appropriate unless a woman has exhausted all other disciplinary remedies available to her. And even then I think a pro is a better choice." This would seem pretty true if the purpose of it is just pure DD punishment, but if it were more for the fantasy fulfillment side then maybe more embarrassment is even better? I guess the "more embarrassment = better" could also apply in a real spanking, but for most people the embarrassment is just a necessary side product, and if anything, steps are taken to reduce it rather than increase it.
-ZM
"And a man sent to a pro for discipline is likely to get one hell of a spanking given the situation." I really wonder if this is true. I've always suspected--though I have no basis for knowing--that because they *are* often serving a fantasy and not focused on real behavior correction, a pro might be less inclined on average to deliver a truly hard spanking. Not to mention concerns about legal liability, etc.
DeleteI imagine the best pros are very focused on providing an experience tailored to the client and the situation presented. Tomy's comments suggest to me that "being sent" usually meant a serious spanking and I am assuming a male sent by his wife to a pro is being sent for discipline and a spanking he is going to remember, But I have no personal experience with pros, so maybe someone who does will contribute to the discussion
DeleteAlan
Of the many pros I’ve researched, the common service is one that caters to the desires and needs of the spankee. There is much discussion beforehand to determine what past experience is being brought to the session, and what limits are to be respected. Even disciplinarians who claim to be purely authentic, do not allow a safe word, and hype themselves as capable of judicial-level severity, will also reassure potential clients that they are able to read body language, etc., and have the experience to know when enough is enough. Aside from other important considerations, they want repeat business. So what it comes down to is that what the spankee asks for, they get. A responsible pro, or one with a healthy survival instinct, would not go by what the wife wants unless her husband explicitly agrees to it which, in that respect, in a consensual relationship, is really no different than the wife doing it herself.
DeleteBrett wrote: >>>Of the many pros I’ve researched, the common service is one that caters to the desires and needs of the spankee. There is much discussion beforehand to determine what past experience is being brought to the session, and what limits are to be respected. Even disciplinarians who claim to be purely authentic, do not allow a safe word, and hype themselves as capable of judicial-level severity, will also reassure potential clients that they are able to read body language, etc., and have the experience to know when enough is enough.<<<
DeleteBrett, from what my husband has told me about his encounter with the professional disciplinarian, you have it exactly right. Wayne says he was surprised and worried when she told him there would be no safe word. She told him that her service was providing "real disciplinary spankings", and that safe words apply to BDSM play, not to discipline. She told him he should feel safe, however, because he would not be physically restrained and he was free to stop the session at any time. She also told him exactly what you said, that she had so much experience giving spankings that she had a good sense of how much is enough. Apparently, her claim wasn't just BS. Wayne says the spanking hurt so much that he thought about stopping the session several times. But she seemed to know exactly when to pause to allow him to catch his breath and gather his courage to continue. At the end he asked her how she would rate the severity of the punishment she had given him. She told him he had taken "a pretty hard spanking for a novice" but that it was mild compared to the spankings that some of her clients need. So she seems to have skillfully navigated the line between enough and too much for him.
Danielle
Hi Dan,
ReplyDeleteThe “outsourcing punishment” quote was mine, though interestingly I haven’t really ever thought much about it before or after making that comment, even though it is quite closely related to the witness topic that I have thought about too much!
Question - “What are your thoughts on “outsourcing” punishment? Would it feel like real punishment, or like some kind of kink?”
Answer: It really would depend on the circumstances and who it was as to whether it felt more like real punishment or just some kink.
I can only think of three possible reasons my wife might send me to somebody else to be punished:
1)For some sort of fantasy fulfillment - most likely
2)To make a punishment especially bad, knowing just how embarrassing it would be for me - possible but not as likely
3)Perhaps if there were someone who knew about that aspect of our relationship and who is a close friend of my wife, and if I had offended that person somehow - even more unlikely.
We just aren’t that serious about DD that she would send me to someone just because I needed to be punished and she didn’t have time or wasn’t physically able. Instead, the punishment simply wouldn’t happen.
Question - “If a spanking were to be outsource who would you as the spankee ‘prefer’ take on the spanking role, if you had to choose someone?”
Answer: I think the more interesting question than “who” is the “why that person?” There are some attributes that would be necessary in any situation, including that she must be someone that my wife knows well and trusts implicitly, she must know about our DD relationship, and she must be pretty good at keeping secrets.
If it were for fantasy fulfillment, I do have one large fantasy - slightly off topic and venturing into femdom stuff - that I could really see involving another person. That is where my wife has a friend of hers come and “babysit” me while she goes out with friends. Maybe I am not allowed to talk and the friend could ask me to do different things, punish me, and even put me in a diaper if she wanted to, and generally humiliate me. I have no idea why that is so exciting. Anyway, for that the ideal person, in addition to the basic traits listed above, would also be someone who has a bit of a mean streak and who gets off on having fun at other people’s expense.
On the other hand, if it were for actual punishment just to make it super embarrassing, I think most any of her friends that meet the basic criteria would work. Whether they were good at spanking or not wouldn’t really matter, since the embarrassment would probably be enough to make the whole thing a big deal. But the ideal person for this would be someone who was pretty “matter of fact” and with a strong sense of justice, but also who would tease me enough to make sure I was pretty embarrassed.
And finally, if It was someone that I had wronged, then any of my wife’s friends who meet the basic criteria would work just fine, but then the more important thing would be good judgement, so they don’t destroy my precious and fragile bottom as they vent on it!
Now that I have laid the framework in my mind, I will think about this and come up with the “who” and “why” for each!
I will ask my wife the questions for her and write her answers if she has any.
-ZM
"We just aren’t that serious about DD that she would send me to someone just because I needed to be punished and she didn’t have time or wasn’t physically able. Instead, the punishment simply wouldn’t happen." I think this is how it would work for us, too."
DeleteHi Dan,
DeleteA follow up on what I wrote earlier, after I discussed it with my wife. Overall, she doesn't think the whole outsourcing of discipline is anything that she finds interesting or plausible.
In the end, we determined that the person we would choose is exactly the same person that we said we would choose as a witness. I think my wife is actually thinking some about telling her sometime, based on the way she said a few things, because when we drifted back to that person being a witness; instead of my wife saying "I/we would have to" several times she said "I will have to..." Maybe it will never happen, but still an interesting turn of conversation.
-ZM
Hi ZM,
DeleteThat definitely is a very interesting, and potentially telling, change of phrasing. Now that it seems like your fantasy could become reality, how are you feeling about that?
Hi Dan,
DeleteI don't know that it is likely to happen, but I can say that knowing pretty much for sure who it would be (whether just telling her or her actually witnessing) makes it quite a bit easier to think more concretely what it would be like than just thinking in the abstract.
Interestingly enough night before last, my wife and I went out with some friends (now that places are opening up) and this friend came and joined us. Of course, I couldn't help but think about how it would change the dynamic between us. She is not someone that I see regularly, probably every 2-3 months or so. I have no idea what it would be like, but I assume that if I knew that my wife had told her, it would be very strange the next time I saw her, particularly if she knew that I was aware my wife had told her. The question there would be whether anyone would openly bring it up? If so, I think that would take care of most of the awkwardness, and she would probably kind of smile and laugh about it a bit and that would be that. If nobody talked about it, the awkwardness would probably continue a bit longer, but then I think it would largely become not a big deal.
On the other hand, if she were to witness a spanking, I think the craziest part would be in the moments leading up to that, at least for me. Then I think afterwards it would probably feel slightly awkward at first, but ultimately would make us better friends.
-ZM
"I assume that if I knew that my wife had told her, it would be very strange the next time I saw her, particularly if she knew that I was aware my wife had told her." This is probably true, though as I've said before, I don't know for sure whether the mutual friend I told about our DD has told either her former or current husband, and not knowing definitely add s strangeness to it when we've been together with them. I don't know whether it would be worse if I knew for sure that he knows.
DeleteIn the last months of my pregnancy, I didn't have a lot of energy. I tried having others discipline husband when I decided discipline was required. It didn't go very good. If I get pregnant again, we're going to have to try something else.
ReplyDeleteIt seems like late pregnancy, or having a newborn, would be the most logical time for this sort of thing - especially when family and friends are around looking for something to help with!
DeleteIt's also frequently a time when the husband isn't getting much sex, so I could certainly imagine it being a sexual fantasy for the man. (At first...)
Sorry it didn't go well - what happened?
CrimsonKing
I've mentioned before that our DD relationship is tenuous. My wife at one point suggested that if I care so much about serious discipline, I ask an older male relative. She would never initiate that by asking them to do it, though. She just wanted me to figure out how to get spanked without her involvement. It seems like others' wives contemplate outsourcing for different reasons.
ReplyDeleteHi MW,
DeleteSince it doesn't seem like your wife is all that interested in serious discipline, perhaps she suggested you ask an older male relative just because she knows you wouldn't and it gets you to stop thinking about it? I know that I would have a very, very hard time asking an older male relative (or any male for that matter) to spank me.
-ZM
Nobody's paddling Jimmy's ass but me. It's personal. It's intimate. And why would I delegate the power I like to feel?
ReplyDeleteAlso, I have no interest in helping Jimmy pursue any fantasies that don't revolve around me. I think outsourcing, similar to witnessed spankings, is primarily a male spankee fantasy that is much more sexual than it is disciplinary and is probably extremely rare in real life. Maybe the Disciplinary Wives Club is one of the few places where it actually was an occasional part of the experience.
DeleteI agree that DD has a sexual component. I have previously admitted being turned on by the power aspect. Jimmy is always turned on before and after a paddling. But I want the DD to be primarily for behavior modification, and to us that means the WIFE modifying the husband's behavior, the WIFE exerting her power (and not delegating it), and the WIFE personally in control of the entire experience. After he is punished, I want Jimmy to think two things: I better correct the behavior for which I was just punished, and I better listen to my WIFE.
Belle, although I am less categorical than you about not allowing another woman to spank my husband, I agree with your take on the issue. I think outsourcing and witnessed spankings ARE generally based on "male spankee fantasy." I understand perfectly your desire to keep the intimate act of spanking your husband entirely to yourself.
DeleteDanielle
Danielle,
DeleteThanks for the comment. If a wife and husband agree that he should be spanked by someone else, then I think that is totally up to the couple and I have no problem with it at all. It's just not us. We wouldn't do a threesome either. But there's nothing wrong with couples who would. Now that I am back with my husband, I want him all to myself. And he doesn't seem to mind my possessiveness, which demonstrates itself on a near-nightly basis ... except he is sometimes a little tired climbing those telephone poles, ha ha.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteSo maybe this is a topic for another week - and Dan please tell us if you want us to hold off - but I am wondering whether all these male spankee fantasies of witnesses and outsourcing might include (or even be founded on) you wanting to publicly display the OBEDIENCE to your wife that is enforced with domestic discipline.
ReplyDeleteThis is based on the brief discussion above around my comment that "obedience is sexy." Because if that is the case, then I am sure that you and your wife can arrange public displays of obedience that are well within the bounds of acceptable behavior (and do not include a confession that spanking is one of the main things that has led to your obedience).
It sort of goes back to that funny line that I heard well before I got into DD, "Is he a perfect gentleman or is he pussy-whipped?" To which we could add, "Or is he well-spanked." But the why may not matter. It's the public displays of obedience that matter. You're at the bar and she points to her glass and you jump up to get her another drink. Or the converse: You are about to order another drink for yourself and she says in a normal voice (so others can hear), "You've had enough." And you do not argue at all. Maybe you even say, "Yes, Dear." You know that if you disobey you're getting spanked. But others don't have to know that, do they? They clearly see that you obey your wife, and the witnessing of your obedience may be as great a turn-on for both of you as the unlikely witnessing of you being spanked or of your wife outsourcing your punishment.
Maybe we could all have a great time by having witnesses to husbands obeying their wives!
Agree that we should discuss how much the husband wants to 'show off' his obedience - and how great a husband he is - in a manner that's waaaaay more dramatic than fetching a drink!
DeleteCrimsonKing
I agree that when my wife has spanked me in front of a witness I was certainly demonstrating my obedience to her as well as her authority in our relationship. But there is a lot more going on as well. Looking back on it I feel more obedient to her when we were in private and she is issuing commands that are hard to obey. There is inevitably in a witnessed spanking some performance going on for both the spanker and spankee and that gets in the way of some deeper emotional communication
DeleteAlan
Thinking about it, I’d have to say that the why does matter. If I’m obedient to my wife because I’m such a nice guy, or I love her just that much, or I’m naturally submissive, hate confrontations or other such character traits, it’s missing the key ingredient that my obedience is compelled by the threat of a spanking. Obedience is also demonstrated in the submission to punishment, but what makes it so embarrassing and humbling is when obedience is perceived to be compelled, not by willing submission, but by her will to power.
DeleteI feel just the opposite. I want his submission to be willing and our DD consensual. If I had to force him physically like a parent does a child (assuming I could), that lessens my power. My power is displayed in him doing what I say. He is giving me authority because he loves me. This is freeing to me, and incredibly sexy. He feels compelled on some level, but he also knows he is making a choice, and him making the choice to obey me and accept punishment sometimes leaves me breathless.
DeleteBelle & Brett,
DeleteI think you both are saying the same thing, albeit with different emphasis.Brett wants her to command his obedience with her power and you want him to obey because he loves you and wants/needs to obey you, when you exercise your power.In both cases it is the women's exercise of her power that makes it all work. A woman exercising her power is extremely sexy and that produces obedience in the male which can be equally sexy. Its very synergistic
Alan
Wow, Belle, this is a good insight (and good topic suggestion as well).
DeleteI think for me it is definitely true that much of the motivation towards having a witness - or at least having someone know about it - is publicly demonstrating the obedience I show towards my wife but I think the important part for me is the second part of that: "that is enforced with domestic discipline."
Quite frankly, for me spanking is not something that I particularly like, but rather it is just a very, very concrete demonstration of the power that she has, that she can spank me at will.
While we probably could demonstrate that obedience around others without them knowing about the spanking, I think it would probably just come across as me being a wuss.
So on the part of they why, I totally agree with Brett that the "why?" matters a lot. "Obedience is also demonstrated in the submission to punishment, but what makes it so embarrassing and humbling is when obedience is perceived to be compelled, not by willing submission, but by her will to power." - I totally agree on this, and in a way Belle even said the same thing in her first paragraph, that we want to publicly show obedience, and that obedience is enforced by domestic discipline.
Though I tend to come down a lot more on Brett's side of the spectrum here, I think that probably Alan got it about perfect when he combined them together. "A woman exercising her power is extremely sexy and that produces obedience in the male which can be equally sexy. Its very synergistic." - Exactly that!
-ZM
I'm not really sure that Brett and Belle are saying the same thing and, in fact, I don't really think they are. They are talking about the same issue, but really as two different sides of the same coin. My reaction is closer to Brett's than to Belle's and for that reason, I can answer Belle's question pretty definitively: For me, displaying obedience is *not* sexy (to me) and not part of any desire for having witnesses. On the other hand, her displays of dominance are very sexy and very erotic. I love Brett's line about the "will to power." It is that desire to dominate and to display domination that I find sexy and compelling, not my obedience to it. And, I feel the same way when I see other women taking command. I've recounted a couple times before an incident at an office holiday party in which my wife and I were hanging out with a female colleague of mine who is quite a bit younger than me and her husband. I noticed that she was pretty direct in telling him when she wanted a drink refilled, and he would obediently go to the bar and get it for her. It was such an obvious control move, it left me very convinced that the two of them are, in fact, in some kind of D/s relationship. And, yes, I found it sexy, but because of her dominance, not because of his submission to it.
Delete
DeleteDanielle here:
Belle wrote: >>>I feel just the opposite. I want his submission to be willing and our DD consensual. If I had to force him physically like a parent does a child (assuming I could), that lessens my power. My power is displayed in him doing what I say. He is giving me authority because he loves me. This is freeing to me, and incredibly sexy. He feels compelled on some level, but he also knows he is making a choice, and him making the choice to obey me and accept punishment sometimes leaves me breathless.<<<
Belle, I agree with you 100 %. I think some men in FLR's like to fantasize that spanking is the power we use to make them obey us. But since we have no coercive power to make them accept punishment from us, we know that the power we wield is inside them. They don't obey us because they fear hairbrushes or paddles or straps, they obey us for the same reason they bare their bottoms for punishment when we are annoyed with them. In other words, I don't see spanking as a deterrent; I see it as one potent ingredient in an erotic spell we cast over them. To me that feels sexy the same way as dressing in a way to make men desire us feels sexy. The funny thing is that for men like our husbands, a hairbrush is worth more than hundreds of dollars' worth of lingerie. But I suppose it may be different for those men who want DD alone, without the full power exchange of FLR. I don't know.
I guess it's because spanking feels like an erotic power to me that the idea of "outsourcing" my husband's discipline to another woman, or disciplining another woman's man, wouldn't feel straightforwardly disciplinary. Some of the men here seem to feel that if we exchanged husbands for the sake of discipline, we would be able to separate spanking from our sense of erotic power. It's like they imagine we would feel like sexually disengaged babysitters spanking naughty six-year-old boys. And, who knows, maybe it could be like that for some women and some couples. But not for me.
Dan wrote: "They are talking about the same issue, but really as two different sides of the same coin." This is also a metaphor that works to characterize Brett's view from Belle's if you take it to mean looking at the same situation from two different points of view. That is essentially what I was saying: Belle has said it is sexy to be obeyed and Brett describes his wife’s “will to power” as being sexy and erotic (which presumably leads him to obedience). My point is that males who are - or want to be- in a disciplinary relationship -- find shows of feminine power to be sexy (especially disciplinary power) and that does produce obedience. One does lead to the other in a causal chain that can be reversed. My wife has told me many times my obedience is erotic for her while it also gives her the confidence to use her authority, which is erotic for me. Similarly when she does exert that authority when I am not being obedient that is erotic to me and almost always does produce obedience. It is a complex dance that makes its own music.
DeleteAlan
Danielle,
DeleteI agree with both you and Belle re male obedience. Some of what I replied to Dan (above) expands on this. I do like very much describing female power as an “erotic spell” because it is a kind of aphrodisiac for males. But in my experience the source of that spell and what eroticizes it all is my wife exercising her power with confidence and certainty she will be obeyed. I don’t understand completely why female display of power is so erotic but part of it for me is that it is an expression of her love for me and commitment to our relationship
Alan
I think what we have in common is the attraction to our partner we feel when we express ourselves in this power exchange. It’s always consensual, so I don’t see that as a dividing issue. The willing submission is what Belle and Danielle love, and we husbands are turned on by the female wanting to leverage her power in order to dominate. Belle wants obedience that is a show of love. Danielle casts her spell with her erotic power. Some wives love the power they possess. Either way, the wife is making the decision when and how to discipline, and there is coercion in the mix, a coercion we find exciting. Where I draw a parallel to parental discipline is in this coercion, where a parent persuades me to take my punishment, not by physical force, but because I must respect the power. Of course, with parental spanking, there’s no sexual attraction happening, and it’s not the same kind of free willing consent. Obedience, in either case, is on display, obedience not simply because we love to submit to anything, but because a wife wants to dominate, because of what we feel under her control, and because her dominance is a show of strength we find sexy.
DeleteThese are all good comments, and the dichotomy makes sense in a weird way. I spoke to Jimmy about this, and he goes along with you guys. He wants to feel that he is being coerced to consent to me punishing him, and that "nonconsent" turns him on. I want to feel that Jimmy is willingly consenting, following my verbal commands without coercion, and that turns me on. We just have different interpretations and feelings about the punishment that I believe can easily coexist.
Delete"You made me," he might say.
"No I didn't," I might reply. "You chose to obey me."
We both shrug. You see it your way, I see it mine.
For me personally, it's very clear. When I say "take down your pants" and then "bend over the arm of the couch," I feel it you know where. Likewise when he is apologizing and promising to be good. This was the biggest surprise for me with DD, that I would find the power so erotic. If I felt I were coercing him, like threatening to tell his parents or something like that if he didn't accept punishment, I definitely wouldn't be as turned on. It's my authority and his obedience to my authority -- after a decade of being his little housewife and sex toy followed by a three-year separation -- that is so erotic as well as empowering.
Hi Belle,
DeleteI really like what you said about how the same experience can be interpreted and experienced differently by the two parties. That seems pretty win-win!
And I totally get what you said about the rush of power you feel when he obeys you and when he apologizes and promises to be good. My wife very much finds the power erotic.
As for coercion, I understand what you are saying, but I am thinking in maybe a broader sense than strict coercion, which carries with it some pretty negative connotations. For me, it is not that my wife threatens to tell anyone or anything like that, but rather there is a mutual understanding that if she is to be a party to this whole DD thing, then it is her job to act as judge, jury, and executioner (thankfully just disciplinarian!) and it is my job to accept her decisions regarding punishment. Ultimately, if I get in the habit of resisting too much, I will jeopardize the DD part of our relationship.
But there can also be some very positive reinforcements that can also bring the same obedience, so not coercion per se, but big influences at least. For you, for example, if you had not discovered and implemented DD, would you and Jimmy even be back together? And if DD did help bring you together, is there then not a certain risk that if he were to resist your authority and go back to disrespecting you that it might eventually cause your marriage to suffer or even fail? So even though you are not making any threats, I could see a way that he might feel that if he cares about his marriage, when you show your power, he is best served by obeying. Anyway, just my thoughts.
And either way, after a while the pattern is set and it all becomes a moot point, since you become more and more confident, and he becomes less and less able to resist.
-ZM
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ReplyDeleteHi Dan (and everyone else),
ReplyDeleteJust a few probably random thoughts about our most previous discussion that Belle started and then Danielle, Alan, Brett, you, and I all joined in on.
I think we tend to quickly separate spanking into consensual and non-consensual but that is only part of the formula. And some of us (though not all) who are the recipients of DD want and even need for it to feel imposed, so we have even coined the phrase "consensual non-consent."
Every spanking situation fits somewhere on the range of consensual to non-consensual of course, and with varying degrees and types of coercion. Generally only DD spankings are consensual, and in fact if non-consensual DD would be rightly categorized as abuse. On the other hand, pretty much all other corporal punishment is non-consensual, whether parental or in the past also school, prison, and military, each with very clear coercion.
Perhaps the more interesting issue than consent (which we have talked about extensively) is coercion. What role does coercion play in spanking? Just because DD is consensual, it doesn't mean that coercion isn't also being employed. Why do I take down my pants and bend over for a spanking? And what effect does that coercion have? Is it desirable or undesirable? And what does the interplay between coercion, dominance, and submission look like? BTW, coercion doesn't just apply to spanking. About the most interesting thing about the whole NXIUM cult was their use of "collateral" to use to coerce members into achieving their personal goals.
Outside the DD and D/S realm, spankings are generally all non-consensual and coercion is more clear. For example, in the case of prison for example (in the past), if you were to be punished and if you tried to fight that, men with guns physically overpowered you. In school, if you didn't report to the principals office, they could expel you and generally make your life difficult.
DD is different. We probably are in this type of relationship because we wanted it and we requested it, but that doesn't mean that we actually want each punishment. My wife has the clear authority to punish me. The most coercive part of it is that if I don't submit to her punishments, she will simply quit participating in DD, and since I know that I want it and need it, I ultimately have no choice.
However, as Alan has mentioned several times, once someone has this power over you that is not easy to go back on. Now, even though I could physically resist my wife easily, I simply couldn't resist her because it is just now the way it is. She knows it and I know it. She doesn't need to threaten me that if I don't submit, she will no longer play the role of disciplinarian. We are past that point now.
Even though we both know that I will in every case submit to her will on this, I still want to feel like she is coercing me somewhat. I want her to threaten me about what will happen if I check out other women, for example. Right now I am trying to lose weight, and I like knowing (though I dread it) that if I don't hit my weight target my bottom is going to pay a hefty price. In a very real way, this is similar to NXIUM only it is physical and personal.
And my wife gets to experience the power and sway she has over me. Even if I might slightly resist, she can see that if she just gets the tiniest bit tough with me, I melt and become very submissive. As this happens, she gains more and more confidence to assert herself, which ironically makes it less and less necessary for her to do so since I submit faster and more completely the more confident she becomes.
Anyway, I don't know where I was going with this exactly, other than I think the role of coercion in DD is a pretty interesting angle to explore at some time.
-ZM
ZM,
DeleteYou are opening quite the can of worms here but a fascinating issue nonetheless. The consensual model has been borrowed from contemporary norms of sexual behavior and it is not a perfect fit for adult spanking. That is why we have invented incongruities like “consensual non consent”. “Consent” doesn’t fit that well both due to the nature of disciplinary spanking and due to the needs of most spankos to feel a punishment is being imposed on them or they are being made to obey. To complicate it even further, a lot of the spankings I get are really not wanted (at the time) and for sure during many spankings I do not want it to continue (at that time).Later of course I am very happy she did what she did. Thus the dilemma, how does one consent to something really not wanted (at the time). The answer I think is that consent once given is in practice rarely withdrawn as long as the relationship continues. I am not saying it can’t be withdrawn, but rather that it isn’t withdrawn in long term trusting relationships. Part of this is that the cumulative benefits of discipline are so reinforcing that except when punishment is imminent or happening, I don’t want to withdraw consent. But part of it also as you describe in your own experience, the will to defy her becomes weaker and weaker as she exercises her authority so however much on a given occasion I don’t want my pants taken down, they do come down if she decides and I really can’t stop it. All of this gets to the “free will” question. How much free will do we have in any of it? My answer is some, but it’s much less than we probably think. We really don’t choose to be spankos and the drive many of us have to be disciplined wasn’t consciously chosen. On the other hand, having discipline imposed on me actually gave me more freedom to become the person I want to be. It has freed me of a number of destructive behaviors I could not change without the discipline or threat of it. So back to the whole consensual issue. Our ability to consent or non-consent to a particular woman is probably always there, but very hard to exercise after that consent has been given and discipline is established. As for our consent to be spankos or to need and seek discipline, that seems dubious.
Alan
Let's hold those thoughts on consent until next week. I'm hoping to do a full topic on them
Delete