Sunday, February 7, 2021

The Club - Meeting 365 - Witnesses & Others Knowing, Part ??

“Suddenly summoned to witness something great and horrendous, we keep fighting not to reduce it to our own smallness.” ― John Updike

 

Hello all.  Welcome back to the Disciplinary Couples Club.  Our weekly gathering of men and women who are in, or would like to be in, Domestic Discipline relationships.

 

I hope you all had a good week.  Isn’t it weird going a whole week without some big catastrophe dominating the news?  Here we are on Super Bowl Sunday, and the biggest thing on the late news tonight is likely to actually be the Super Bowl.  As for the game itself, I like football but am not a fanatic about it, and I don’t have much skin in the game this year, as all the teams I follow kind of sucked this year.  So, while I don’t care that much about the game itself, I will say I’m really missing the whole sports bar experience.

 


We had a good discussion last week. Thanks for all the helpful advice about getting back into the swing of things, so to speak, after a long spanking hiatus.  I didn’t take that advice (yet) in terms of actually just biting the bullet and asking for one. Though, I also had a glimmer of the old (bad) me come out, after three back-to-back work-related virtual happy hours in one late afternoon/evening led to a few too many beers for a weekday.  It wasn’t like gonzo excessive but definitely enough to leave me feeling tired the next day.  So, while she didn’t order a spanking, I guess at a minimum I now have some reason to ask for one if I want to go in that direction.

 

While last week’s topic may officially have been about pauses or hiatuses from the disciplinary lifestyle, much of the discussion ended up being about witnesses.  It’s been way less than a year since we last did something on that topic, but it is plainly one with ongoing appeal and, since I didn’t have anything else lined up to talk about this week, let’s go with something along the lines of the sub-topics ZM suggested.  I’ve paraphrased or added my own spin on some of them, and I’ll provide my own answers in-line.  If possible, I’d like to keep the discussion focused on witnesses in terms of personal relationships, not things like spanking parties.  I think the two dynamics would be very different, and most of the exchanges we’ve had on this relate to the interpersonal dynamics.

 

Does the spanker in your relationship have any desire/motivation to have a witness or to tell someone about your spanking relationship?  If so, is it either telling someone, or having a witness, or both?

 

I don’t think Anne has any desire to tell anyone that she spanks me or to have someone witness a spanking.  Though, as I’ve recounted here, there have been a couple of instances in which she has made cryptic or not-so-cryptic references to it in front other others, mainly family members.

 

For those who have crossed the Rubicon and told someone or given a spanking in front of a witness, was it a one-time thing or a repeat occurrence?

 

For me, it’s been kind of a blend with respect to telling someone.  So far, I have told only one person from my “real life,” namely a female friend of many years.  Anne later had some fun talking to this same friend about it.  I haven’t told anyone else about it, though I have had some of the on-line relationships from this blog blossom into real, if still mainly electronic, relationships.  Though, I don’t really think of that as the same kind of “telling others” that ZM has become so fascinated with lately.

 


 

For those who haven’t done it, what keeps you from telling others?  From having witnesses? Fear of how they would react?  Fear of their indiscretion?

 

That’s a hard one. With respect to family members, I do wonder how they would react and I don’t really want to find out.  With others, like friends, there hasn’t really been any natural entry point for such a conversation. I don’t know anything about my friends’ respective kinks, and it’s not something we’d usually talk about.  I don’t think the reluctance is so much fear of indiscretion, because I think if you do choose to tell someone about this, you kind of have to presume they’ll tell someone else, especially their spouse.  I don’t know whether the friend I told has told her husbands (she’s been divorced once since I told her) about it, but I wouldn’t be surprised.  Honestly, I think what holds me back the most from telling anyone else is I wouldn’t want to make them uncomfortable. 

 

 

Is having an eyewitness more embarrassing or threatening than someone merely knowing that you get spanked?

 

While I think having someone witness a spanking would be more embarrassing than that same someone merely knowing that I do get spanked, context is important.  Something I think I would find very embarrassing would be having someone know I was about to be spanked, being taken out of the room for the spanking, and then having to come back and face them.  I don’t know why I find the thought of that more embarrassing than actually being spanked in front of someone, but I do.

 

 

Would someone hearing you get spanked be as embarrassing having an eyewitness?

 

See my previous answer. I think it would and perhaps more so, though I can’t really explain why.

 

  

Would someone seeing the after-effects of a spanking be as embarrassing as witnessing the spanking itself?

 

 If you have told someone that you get/give disciplinary spankings, who did you tell and how did they react?

As I said above, I have told one person; a female friend who we both have known for many years.  Her reaction was some mixture of interest and amusement.  I don’t think it is something she herself has an interest in, but I think she was generally interested in hearing about it and in me revealing that part of myself to her.  

 

If you have been spanked/given a spanking in front of a witness, how did the witness react?  How did they feel about it, if you know?

 

  

If you have not told anyone but were ordered to do so, who would it be and why? 

 

This is a hard one.  Our parents and siblings are out, for various reasons, mainly that the parents would be uncomfortable and scandalized, and we don’t have that kind of relationship with any of our siblings.  Part of me is attracted to the idea of Anne being much more authoritative and openly in charge in front of our (adult) kids.  I think it would give them an even greater level of respect for her, and perhaps lead them to think about whether they have any desire to incorporate DD into their own adult relationships.

 

 

How did it/how might it change your relationship with the person who knows or the witness?

 

If one of us were to tell a friend or acquaintance, I’m not sure how it would change the relationship.  With the friend I told, it didn’t change the relationship, but when we get together I do think about the fact that she knows.  It is embarrassing, though also adds a kind of risqué energy.  It is the same with the people I’ve gotten to know through DD and FLR blogging. Even though as the relationships have developed much of what we talk about has nothing to do with DD or FLR, it definitely remains in the back of mind that, “This person knows I get spanked!” The above picture reflects that feeling a bit.

 

If a spanking hasn’t (yet) been witnessed, how do you think it would change your DD relationship if it were to happen?

 

I think if my wife ever decided to include a witness, it would be a real milestone in terms of both of us knowing that she is really in charge. While on the surface it adds a game-like element to things, I think it would make the reality all the more real.  

57 comments:

  1. I feature witnessed spankings a lot in my blog , but like most commenters I would be reluctant to have it happened for real.
    We did have a spanking aborted when a close female friend and neighbour stopped by for a visit.
    Strangely , I often think about that incident and fantasize that my wife had kept on spanking while she listened.

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    1. I once lived in a part of the country in which it was common for friends and neighbors to just stop by. Coincidentally, it was also a part of the country where spanking kids in public was very prevalent. Make me wonder if there might be a connection between those mindsets.

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    2. We made sure to lock the front door after that close call, although with my wife's cryptic and not so cryptic comments to this friend over the years I think she has a pretty good idea that she spanks me !

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  2. There was an ex S.O. of whom I am still friendly with..she was a strict disciplinarian..I had been spanked by her in front of witnesses on three occasions. once a married couple who themselves were involved in BDSM scene and were very supportive of our D/s lifestyle. The other two times were in a domestic situation where I was taken by surprise with notice that I was going to be spanked for various misdeeds on my part. Usually bad language around her young son or others...Bare bottom OTK with paddle both times...These witnesses were aware of our relationship and new before hand that corporal punishment was the norm. But seeing for the first time was new.

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    1. Who were the witnesses to the two "domestic situation" spankings?

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    2. Sorry Dan, I just saw this now. The witnesses were friends that like I said were familiar with our relationship, both women. Both of them were life-stylers at the time and had participated at various "parties". Both situations that I speak of were at our home and purely domestic situations. One was really a suprise. I had been cleaning the apartment when there was a knock on the door. I was told to answer and there was our mutual female friend. She said she had been asked to stop by this eve to act as a witness. I had no idea!! I was told to stand in the corner and wait while they had coffee and chatted..then was called out of the corner. The witness was impressed that I was made helpless, bare bottom, and leg locked. Paddled till blubbering like a school boy.

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  3. Funny thing is I can still recall, in vivid detail, the spankings I overheard others getting growing up. And being me, of course, it always excited the hell out of me. Also when a mom said things like "Wait till I get you home." those stuck too.

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    1. I don't recall specifically overhearing others getting one, but I definitely have strong memories about knowing someone was going to get one or had just gotten one

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    2. I don't really remember ever seeing or hearing a spanking that others received, or even any specific times that I heard someone else was going to be spanked or had been. But what I DO remember is just how captivated by it I was, especially when I heard of others being sent to the principal's office.

      -ZM

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  4. Danielle here:

    I think my initial desire for other people to know that I have disciplinary power over my husband was to make our power exchange feel more real. It took a long time to get to the point of spanking Wayne in front of my friend Barb for a couple of reasons. First, adult spanking is highly sexual, even when disciplinary, in my opinion. So bringing a witness into it is like inviting them into the bedroom. Consent has to be carefully negotiated. Discretion is also a concern, especially if one lives in a town where people know one another. My husband’s consent was tricky. I knew he fantasized about having witnesses, but we don’t necessarily want our fantasies to be made real, do we? Wayne has fantasies of being spanked, not just in front of a witness, but in public for all to see. I know he wouldn’t really want that, so I didn’t think knowing that the thought of witnesses turned him on meant I could simply impose it on him. I had to bring him to it gradually.

    The first step was to tell a couple of women that I spank Wayne and to let him deal with that embarrassment. So I told both my friend Barb and Wayne’s sister Liz. Wayne told me it was by far more embarrassing for his sister to know, and when I told him I wanted to bring in a witness, he said “please, not my sister.” That’s how I settled on Barb.

    Bringing Barb into it changed my relationship to her well before the actual event. As I told her about my FLR, she opened up to me about her sex life, and I discovered she has a kinky side too. The actual event was more than just discipline. Barb and I had fun planning an embarrassing ordeal that would blow Wayne's mind. My purpose was less discipline than showing Wayne I could do something no professional disciplinarian could do. Afterwards, Barb told me she felt like she had just participated in a threesome, and the naughtiness excited her. There is a bit of a sexual vibe between Barb and me now.

    Once the pandemic is over, Barb has agreed to participate again. Maybe she will spank Wayne herself. But I am also thinking it might be satisfying to give Wayne a purely disciplinary spanking in front of his sister, if she is willing. If I involve her, it wouldn't be hyper sexual like it was with Barb. For example, Barb and I consciously played with Wayne's insecurity about frontal exposure. That would be inappropriate with a sister, so I would take Wayne's sense of modesty into account. I think it would be possible to bare only his bottom. In fact, spanking him without taking his pants down at all would probably be humbling enough. I don't know whether I will actually do that, but it is fun to think about and to hold over Wayne’s head as a possibility.

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    1. Hi Danielle. I think your experience highlights something we sometimes forget about witnesses -- that they bring their own experiences and interests to the table, including their level or kind of kinkiness. In opening up to Barb, you found out that she had a kinky side she had not previously told you about. When I told my friend about our DD relationship, she showed interest, amusement, and support, but it didn't lead to any revelations of kink in her own relationships. She is a very free spirit and one of the most non-judgmental people I have in my life, but I really have no idea whether she is kinky or what form that kink would take. I suspect, given that we are very close, that revealing my kink to her didn't result in a corresponding revelation by her because she isn't very kinky. But, I really don't know.

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    2. Hi Danielle,
      Everything in your first paragraph really resonated with me. Especially about the: "I knew he fantasized about having witnesses, but we don’t necessarily want our fantasies to be made real, do we?" I think this is spot on.

      -ZM

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  5. This is Belle and I asked Jimmy some of these questions.

    Does the spanker in your relationship have any desire/motivation to have a witness or to tell someone about your spanking relationship? If so, is it either telling someone, or having a witness, or both?
    I don't have much desire to have a witness. I have told two girlfriends, and if I wanted a witness I would pick the one who had a fling with Jimmy while we were separated. She's already seen him naked, so it wouldn't be as big of a deal.

    For those who have crossed the Rubicon and told someone or given a spanking in front of a witness, was it a one-time thing or a repeat occurrence?
    I have discussed it with two girlfriends and might tell others depending on the circumstances.

    For those who haven’t done it, what keeps you from telling others? From having witnesses? Fear of how they would react? Fear of their indiscretion?
    I am not into humiliating my husband and I know he would feel that way.

    Is having an eyewitness more embarrassing or threatening than someone merely knowing that you get spanked?
    Jimmy says definitely yes.

    Would someone hearing you get spanked be as embarrassing having an eyewitness?
    Jimmy says the eyewitness would be more embarrassing.

    Would someone seeing the after-effects of a spanking be as embarrassing as witnessing the spanking itself?
    Jimmy says no. He says someone seeing his reaction during the spanking would be the most embarrassing thing. (He sometimes has a hard time taking it and thinks he isn't acting very manly.)

    If you have told someone that you get/give disciplinary spankings, who did you tell and how did they react?
    Two girlfriends. The one who slept with him was surprised but then laughed. The other didn't have much reaction and we didn't discuss it further.

    If you have been spanked/given a spanking in front of a witness, how did the witness react? How did they feel about it, if you know?
    Haven't done it.

    If you have not told anyone but were ordered to do so, who would it be and why?
    This was interesting. Jimmy named the friend of mine who slept with him! (Same as the witness I would choose). I said she shouldn't count because I have already told her. But he said she should because she hasn't heard it from him and it would still be a big deal for him to bring it up to her.

    How did it/how might it change your relationship with the person who knows or the witness?
    They still have a teasy/flirty kind of relationship. He says she would likely bring it up to him when she wants to stick it to him. I don't think it would change my relationship with her. I know she was just a side thing for Jimmy because he was horny. He always wanted me back.

    If a spanking hasn’t (yet) been witnessed, how do you think it would change your DD relationship if it were to happen?
    I don't think it would change much at all if it's his fling. If it were someone that really upset him as a witness, that could hurt our relationship. Bu I would never do that.

    I really don't think I will ever spank Jimmy in front of her or anyone else. I think it's a private intimate thing between him and me. I don't think we need to hide that we have a DD relationship. But having someone watch is something else entirely.

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    1. Belle, your comment highlights a couple of questions I didn't raise in this topic but should have, because they are so obvious. First, for those who have told someone they spank or are spanked by their spouse, why did you choose to tell anyone? Second, once you did tell someone, how did that feel?

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    2. Hi Belle,
      Excellent response. One thing that is interesting is that your situation is a little closer to what many people here think is a bit more ideal in that you are the one who seems to push the DD forward, instead of him pulling you forward. And even when involving telling others, it was you who told because you wanted to, rather than him fantasizing about others knowing.

      Anyway, you lend a good perspective, so thank you!

      -ZM

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    3. I just think I am a very practical person. From the very first time I spanked Jinny, I saw improvement. The more I have spanked him, the more respectful he has become. That makes a lot of sense, as he has a "healthy fear" of the bath brush. But it's so much more than that; he actually sees me as a powerful woman now, not his little wife/toy. Why wouldn't I push the DD forward? I've yet to see a down side.
      I admit I was VERY nervous about it when he first suggested I spank him. I have no interest in turning him into a sissy or a doormat. I want a strong, macho husband. I feared I would break him. But you guys on here convinced me pretty quickly that would not happen. I am grateful.
      To the hesitant wives I would ask, what are you worried about? Maybe by talking to your husband and others, that worry would be resolved.
      I don't have to ask Jimmy if he's happier since we started DD. We're back together all the way, including in the bedroom. He has a smile on his face whenever he isn't over the arm of the couch ...

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    4. Danielle here:
      Dan wrote: >>>Belle, your comment highlights a couple of questions I didn't raise in this topic but should have, because they are so obvious. First, for those who have told someone they spank or are spanked by their spouse, why did you choose to tell anyone? Second, once you did tell someone, how did that feel?<<<


      Why did I choose to tell anyone? That's not a simple question for me to answer. Maybe it has to do with feelings relating to my background. I grew up in a conservative, patriarchal family, and I felt resentful of my brother's superior status. I felt, for example, that his academic achievements mattered more to my parents than mine did. Also, I always had to help my mother with all the household tasks considered "women's work", but my brother was exempted from that. Fast forward to married life: Once I agreed to Wayne's desire for FLR, I realized I had the opportunity to stand patriarchy on its head, making him do the "women's work." Once the gender role reversal was complete, I enjoyed showing off my status to family and friends by having Wayne wearing an apron in the kitchen when we hosted dinners. Wayne took some ribbing about that. People would make cracks about how "well trained" he was. But nobody knew how true that was. Wayne laughed at those jokes and replied that he simply enjoyed doing the cooking. He didn’t acknowledge that what people were seeing was FLR in action. I reinforced that spin out of consideration for Wayne's masculine pride. But I was always tempted to show that I really was the boss.

      If I am honest about it, one reason I wanted to show off my status may sound petty. I hated that my brother was always thought to be so brilliant when we were growing up. Then after I got married, I realized that my husband had the same status as the smart one of his family. That annoyed me. Wayne's smugness about it annoyed me too, so I sometimes imagined how satisfying it would be to reveal to his family that Mr. Smartypants answered to my hairbrush. Eventually I couldn't resist telling Wayne's sister Liz. That felt great. Liberating. And Liz was positively gleeful to get that embarrassing intel on her big brother. It turns out her feelings towards her brother were similar to my feelings towards mine. That brought about a sisterly closeness to my sister-in-law. Wayne was embarrassed to be outed to his sister and worried that she might spread family gossip. I made her promise not to tell anyone, but who knows whether Liz might have spilled the beans to her husband and daughter? To be honest, I wouldn't mind if Wayne's entire family knew.

      My motivation for telling my friend Barb was different. I just needed to confide in someone about the kinky aspects of FLR. With her I didn't just talk about DD. Once we began sharing information about our sex lives, I told her things I would never tell Wayne's sister.

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    5. Danielle,
      Your candor -- together with your frequently penetrating insights into DD, its origins, motivations and benefits – is inspiring. I look forward to hearing your view about witnesses as well as DD in general. Your contributions are appreciated
      Alan

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    6. Danielle and Dan,
      "Once I agreed to Wayne's desire for FLR, I realized I had the opportunity to stand patriarchy on its head, making him do the "women's work."

      Since my husband and I have a mutual friend that guessed we have a FLR and presumes there is discipline in our marriage, I can admit that she knows although I won't confirm it to her because my husband has a business relationship with her.

      For what Danielle said, I can only say that it is an amazing power rush and sexual rush knowing that my husband is happy in a FLR and is willing to do most of the chores and do what he's told. In fact, I've often wondered why, at this point in his life (we're both in our 50s) he's happy answering to me like he does. He could have much more of the freedoms that come from grown children that left the nest and from more financial means now than a few years ago. He's happy I'm boss so I don't think about it too much.

      I'm always charging it up for him to to remind him I'm boss. Today he ran errands and did shopping. He wasn't thinking and forgot the grocery list (I took a picture of the list with my IPhone and sent it to him). I inflicted some immediate discipline by making him text me every 15 minutes with a brief message about what he was doing as long as he was not driving. He interrupted my phone call with my sister and should have remembered the list. He had to keep his mind on things at this point and he never missed a text. He likes this because it's a way for me to remind him I'm boss. I'm almost tempted to refuse to let him go on a camping trip with his friends later in the year just to show him who's boss. He does so much for me I feel guilty doing it.

      I'll be reminding him he forgot the grocery list in a few minutes at our regular discipline session. I really like the idea of that apron. He'll be wearing one when we start to have guests over. They can witness that lol

      Have a great weekend.
      Carol H.

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    7. Thanks for sharing, Danielle! As always, I thought your input was excellent.

      Regarding the whole not only turning the patriarchy on it's head, but also showing off a bit about how you did it, I would think this would be something my wife would enjoy as well, since as I have mentioned before, we live in a VERY traditional and VERY patriarchal society that most modern Americans simply couldn't comprehend. And my wife lived in America for over 10 years, so she does understand both cultures very well, plus I am an American. Anyway, I think that is something that she would enjoy showing off a bit.

      And your thought about your brother I think applies to many of us men. I think that some/many of us really need this "taking down a peg" that you are talking about (though you didn't use that phrase).

      And then of course your talk about the kinky motivation. I like it that you delineated the motivations on different levels.

      -ZM

      -ZM

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  6. I have discussed my experiences with witnesses earlier which is a bit more than many but a lot less than some. I have thought a lot about why the fantasy is so strong (and widespread) and why at least some women grow more enthusiastic about it with experience. For the male spankee, I think there are elements of exhibitionism in it, demonstrating to an (audience of one) your bare bottom as well as the ability to endure. But a deeper drive motivating it is a form of self-actualization, moving one from a very private world to a public one ( in fact my former girlfriend referred to witnessed spanking as “getting a public”. It’s part of the drive we all have to be what we are and connect it to the wider world. As for female motivation, Danielle has described it well in recounting her experiences with Wayne. It is power affirming for a wife to discipline a husband even in private. For my wife after the first ones it’s become a tool she uses to manage my behavior (mostly with warnings) but also demonstrating her power in front of her sister. There is also bonding between them going on. The mentor role is also something my wife could enjoy but her sister’s husband (who really needs it) has rejected DD. If we ever involve another witness, I think mentoring will be a strong element in it. Some time ago I corresponded with a fellow from the UK who said his wife had mentored many other couples using him to demonstrate techniques and various disciplinary tools. He told me that once his wife brought him to tears in front of another couple and the male witness laughed at him. He said one of the highlights of his spanking memories was a year or so later when his wife spanked him side by side along with the guy who laughed at him who was also being soundly spanked by his own wife before they both did panties down corner time in front of both women. That may be for me a bridge too far but it may illustrate what can happen if the stars are all aligned.
    Alan

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    1. Thanks, Alan. I understand what you are saying about the self-actualizing element. Though, for me the countervailing element is that I kind of like DD being a "naughty little secret" as I think Aunt Kay once described it. I also think that the dream I have recounted here of being taken out of an office event and spanked has such emotional power because of the embarrassment involved, and I'm not sure I would want to lose that emotional charge via self-actualization. I've seen memes to the effect that: "It's only kinky the first time." I think there is some truth in that.

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    2. Hi Alan,
      "It’s part of the drive we all have to be what we are and connect it to the wider world." I hadn't really thought of this before, but I think that very well may be a large part of why having someone else know about it, or even witness it, is important to me. While I also like the "naughty little secret" element of it that Dan referred to, somehow there is also this need/want for at least someone else to know. Perhaps it is because it is a large part of my psyche? I always wondered why gay people wanted to be more free in talking about things and bristled at the concept of "don't ask, don't tell." I thought (at that time) that it seemed like a reasonable solution, and my thinking WAS - so don't beat me up for it too badly - that being gay was primarily sexual, and so in the same way that I don't really talk about what happens in my bedroom, why would a gay person want to. However, as time has passed, I realized it is because a not-insignificant part of a person's identity is tied up in their sexuality, so it feels very repressive to hide something that is so central to how you are made up. I think (but don't know) that it is much like that for me and DD.

      "It is power affirming for a wife to discipline a husband even in private." True. And certainly even more so with a witness or having someone else know that she does so.

      "There is also bonding between them going on." I think this is a significant effect of anyone knowing or witnessing. There is a certain intimacy that I think would inevitably strengthen the relationship.

      Excellent comments as always!

      -ZM

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    3. Hi Dan,
      My dream that I said that I recently had was not an office setting, but it was the same thing where I was being taken out of a room to be spanked, and someone knew about it and was openly talking (and laughing) about it. I do think that would be very embarrassing, and agree that is where most of the emotional power of it comes from.

      "I'm not sure I would want to lose that emotional charge via self-actualization. I've seen memes to the effect that: 'It's only kinky the first time.'" - I am not quite so sure about this part. Yes, realizing it by making it reality would certainly change the experience, but I am not sure if it would necessarily make it less impactful in the future if it were to happen again. What if it was in entirely different circumstances? What if it were different people, who maybe would be more embarrassing just because of who they were?

      I do think that just doing something once does remove a lot of the perceived kinkiness of it. At least for me, it mostly eliminates my curiosity about it and greatly reduces my thinking about it. However, in the same way, if I were to be spanked twice with two different witnesses - however unlikely that might be - the second time might actually be more impactful because the whole curiosity and wanting it to happen would be gone. Just my thoughts...

      -ZM

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    4. Hi ZM, your allusion above to gay culture and “don’t ask, don’t tell” is interesting, particularly applying it to adult spanking and witnesses. To me the take away is that expressions of ones sexuality go far beyond the elemental private act of intimacy that is both sex and spanking -- to a personal statement of identity and personhood. We can separate our sexuality to talk about it, analyze it and understand it. But it is inseparable from who we are. Much of gay liberation was driven by that given including the right to be open about who they are. Not all gays want to be “out of the closet “just as not all spankos would want to be. It’s the freedom to make that choice, not the choice itself that is important
      Alan

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    5. Hi Alan,
      I would be the first to admit that I don't know what I am talking about when it comes to gay culture and underlying feelings and motivations, though some of my closer friends and relatives are gay. So I am just shooting from the hip on the comparison I made, and I may or may not be correct at all.

      I think you are right about "We can separate our sexuality to talk about it, analyze it and understand it. But it is inseparable from who we are."

      And I expect that you are completely right about it not being so much that all gays want to be out of the closet, but they want it to be ok to be if they choose to do so. It was like when we had lockdowns here and I had to be home after 8pm (the times and rules kept changing as the COVID situation evolved). It was not so much that I wanted to go anywhere, but I didn't like not being able to!

      -ZM

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  7. > "Does the spanker in your relationship have any desire/motivation to have a witness or to tell someone about your spanking relationship?

    The way this must work in real DD relationships is that every scene is agreed upon and set up in advance. I like to imagine that the witness happens by accident, possibly because my wife doesn’t mind taking the risk. As agreed to, I'd leave it up to her judgment. It would be up to her not to involve anyone who doesn’t want any part of it. The key is making it appear that it’s not being staged for the witness, but that’s very tricky to pull off in real life. Another situation that could work might be that the witness is the victim of the crime, so to speak, and my punishment is part of their compensation.

    > "For those who haven’t done it, what keeps you from telling others?  From having witnesses? Fear of how they would react?  Fear of their indiscretion?"

    I would have to overcome great fear in order to either tell others or have witnesses. Whatever their reaction is, I think the shame and embarrassment would be very deep. I’m curious to see what the reaction is, as that’s the point of having an audience. Fear of them telling others would be real.

    > "Would someone hearing you get spanked be as embarrassing having an eyewitness?"

    Having someone hear it from another room, especially if they know the circumstances of the punishment, and I must face them afterwards, is an experience I know all too well, but not as an adult. It has a powerful impact. A few times I might have had eyewitnesses, and just the possibility of that adds another level of embarrassment.

    > "Would someone seeing the after-effects of a spanking be as embarrassing as witnessing the spanking itself?"

    Hiding the after-effects is a major concern. There are different aspects of spanking that are embarrassing. Each has its own individual flavor, some combination of bitter, sweet, sour and spice. I can’t really measure the shame that the evidence of recent punishment inspires, but let’s just say it makes a full meal by itself.

    > "If you have been spanked/given a spanking in front of a witness, how did the witness react?  How did they feel about it, if you know?"

    This is the gist of having a witness. I want to know every thought they have about what they saw. What I don’t know, I probably obsess about.

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    1. > "If you have not told anyone but were ordered to do so, who would it be and why?"

      This is a fascinating question even for someone not in a DD relationship. For me it would not be family or close friends. That would be hugely embarrassing, which is the idea, but it would be much less messy to tell someone with whom I have little or infrequent personal contact. It would also not be a complete stranger I never see again. We have to know each other so there is some persistence of the uncomfortable connection we made. If I’m ordered, but it’s my choice, who do I tell? I would tell a female. It’s a fetish, after all, and that’s what suits it. My wife has friends I only know because of their relationship, and telling some of them appeals to me, but how would I go about even bringing up the subject?

      > "How did it/how might it change your relationship with the person who knows or the witness?"

      It would be a very big fundamental change, an intimacy that didn’t exist before, and an awkward embarrassing event every time we saw each other, at least for me. It could be difficult for her, as well, but I would hope that she likes knowing or what she saw, and that she would want to talk about it. If she was apathetic about it, my embarrassment would be a dry flavor that leaves a bad taste in the mouth, unlike an emotional involvement on her part that would satisfy.

      > "If a spanking hasn’t (yet) been witnessed, how do you think it would change your DD relationship if it were to happen?"

      I think the most significant change would be the heightened reality of our relationship as it pertains to the humility of being under her parental-like authority. If my wife and I are the only ones who know, where does the evidence of that humility go? It’s kind of like the question of a tree falling in the forest. When someone is there to see of hear it fall, the question has been answered.

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    2. The evidence of humility should be everywhere! I have been amazed at how much more humble Jimmy is since I started spanking him. It is quite noticeable. We don't need witnesses for his humility to show. You don't have to see or hear the tree falling to know that it's down on the ground!

      My sharing about our DD with one girlfriend was in direct response to her noticing the change in Jimmy's behavior. She said something like, "What's got into him? He's so much nicer." So I told her. We both burst out laughing, but then she asked if I was serious and I said yes and we talked about it. When DD works, there should be lots of "witnesses" to the results!
      Belle

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    3. Brett: "Another situation that could work might be that the witness is the victim of the crime, so to speak, and my punishment is part of their compensation." Something about that scenario is very compelling to me. I've recounted that my wife once ordered me to apologize, in a live conversation and not in an email or something impersonal, after a nasty work-related comment. That was extremely humbling. I can't imagine how bad it would be to be spanked in front of a witness for bad behavior toward that witness.

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    4. Hi Belle,
      "My sharing about our DD with one girlfriend was in direct response to her noticing the change in Jimmy's behavior. She said something like, 'What's got into him? He's so much nicer.' So I told her." - That is pretty much exactly like the scenario I could most envision my wife telling one of her friends.

      And Dan "I can't imagine how bad it would be to be spanked in front of a witness for bad behavior toward that witness." - I agree totally. In fact, back in August when we were talking about who would be a good witness, I came up with something along the lines of "anyone who I might have wronged or offended." That would of course be very embarrassing. Another thing my wife and I came up with when talking about her friend who would be the most likely person that she would ever tell, is if my wife is spanking me for something that her friend is also upset about. So like for example her husband (soon to be ex husband) has been having affairs, etc. and was always too friendly with girls. So imagine if my wife were spanking me for flirting with girls and if her friend either knew about it or even worse was witnessing it. If she were a witness, she would probably be encouraging my wife to spank much harder, just to atone for some of what her husband did!

      -ZM

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    5. Dan: “Something about that scenario is very compelling to me. I've recounted that my wife once ordered me to apologize, in a live conversation and not in an email or something impersonal, after a nasty work-related comment. That was extremely humbling. I can't imagine how bad it would be to be spanked in front of a witness for bad behavior toward that witness.”

      Anything that validates or lends credence to the idea that spanking is being used as punishment strengthens the experience for me. The result is a feeling that justice has been served, and being on the punished end of that equation is humbling. Being forced to apologize for something I did would be humbling, and submitting to a spanking I’d see as the ultimate apology.

      The potential problem I see with staging a spanking for a witness is that it becomes entertainment. To the witness, is it really about legitimate discipline, or is it fantasy fulfillment? Why are they presenting this to me, the witness may reasonably ask. One clear exception is that the punishment is staged for the benefit of the victim of the crime. They are there because they have a personal stake in this drama. It’s the apology they have a right to, and the punishment to satisfy their sense of justice.

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    6. "The potential problem I see with staging a spanking for a witness is that it becomes entertainment. To the witness, is it really about legitimate discipline, or is it fantasy fulfillment?"

      True, although the more pragmatic part of me says "who cares how the witness sees the whole thing?" assuming that they are consensual and open to witnessing it. As for whether it is really about legitimate discipline or fantasy fulfillment, I think that is always the thing I am trying to reconcile about everything involving DD, and quite frankly most of the time it is both at the same time, no matter how strange that seems!

      -ZM

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  8. I think others on here have commented that spanking is about as intimate as sex. I wouldn't want a witness when Jimmy and I are doing it. Why would I want one when I am spanking him?

    I think some of you guys are exhibitionists as well as spankos. Maybe you would want somebody watching regardless of your kink.

    I guess I understand the wives who like having a witness as additional punishment. That could be a powerful deterrent. But I have no interest in embarrassing Jimmy. I want him to suffer the consequences of his behavior, but mostly I want him to know how powerful I am and that he needs to listen to me and respect me. But I am not out to humiliate him. I don't need to graphically demonstrate my power in front of others. Others see that my man respects me now, and that's enough. To me the whole witness thing is more kink than anything that enhances the results of DD. If you're into it, great! Jimmy and I aren't.

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    1. I'm sure some people do experience DD as being as intimate as sex. It's not for me. I don't deny at all that there is a sexual element to it, as Danielle says, but for me it does not have the private intimacy I associate with sex.

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    3. Hi Belle,
      I can totally see where you are coming from. However, I can say that the thought of someone knowing about or even witnessing a spanking is very compelling, but the thought of anyone seeing us make love is a total turn-off and non-starter.

      Also, while spanking is quite inescapably sexual, and while the desire for it is obviously rooted in sexuality, I really WANT spanking to be not sexual. I so wish I could go back to my youth and misbehave just to experience more absolutely real spankings.

      As for embarrassment, I don't like it at all, but seem to crave that element of it. Is it a kink? Almost certainly! Can I do anything to change it? Nope...

      -ZM

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    4. Belle wrote: “To me the whole witness thing is more kink than anything that enhances the results of DD” You are certainly right that Interest in witnesses can have a kink origin. But both its motivation and its consequences go well beyond simple kink -- as Tomy eloquently describes. As for not “enhancing the results of DD”, it may seem it would not for you –but that really isn’t something you know since you haven’t experienced it
      Alan

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    5. Belle: "I think some of you guys are exhibitionists as well as spankos. Maybe you would want somebody watching regardless of your kink."

      I think of it as a form of exhibitionism, but not about exposure of genitals or of sexual activity. For me, anyway, if we look under the hood, spanking is sexual activity. However, that's not what’s being exposed. The whole idea is that the witness doesn’t see it as sexual. And in any other context, I’m the opposite of an exhibitionist. I’m a private person who doesn’t like to be the center of attention.

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    6. ZM: "Also, while spanking is quite inescapably sexual, and while the desire for it is obviously rooted in sexuality, I really WANT spanking to be not sexual. I so wish I could go back to my youth and misbehave just to experience more absolutely real spankings."

      Too much to let go. ;-) If spanking is inescapably sexual, then please tell how it is then different than anything else, like even eating, driving a car, hell, how many times have I got a little turned on using my leaf blower?? Spanking may well be sexual, but only to the degree we understand it to be. For example, is spanking sexual to a vanilla person?

      And while I think you'll regret it, if you really want it asexual, just masturbate beforehand. Trust me, it'll be horrible.

      As for childhood spankings? There are those who claim they too were sexual on some level. When it comes to the complexity of human thought and our inherent sexual natures....even from birth, I truly question the accurate delineation of anything at any time of our lives as being inescapably one or the other.

      When I'm in the state I am in now? Wow, everything seems sexual to me. When I'm stressed or dealing with some major life issue I think a naked vixen could suck on my privates and I'd ask her to just get me some postage stamps. LOL

      Belle: As for exhibitionism? Guilty as charged. And I think that is accurate. But then I am exhibitionistic in non-sexual areas too. I just like being the center of attention at times....at other times, I can be quite reclusive. LOL

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    7. Dan, I think that spanking is a sexual act, but I don't feel that it's as intimate as actual sex. If I did, I wouldn't even have thought about spanking Wayne in front of a witness. But I suppose the emotional gap between spanking and sex is smaller for Wayne than for me. For one thing, I am fully dressed when I spank Wayne, whereas he has his pants taken down. And he is the one with the spanking fetish. Now that I think of it, Barb's comment after the spanking was interesting. She said she felt like she had just taken part in a threesome. I interpreted her comment as a humorous exaggeration, but it's true that there was a sexual current between the three of us. But then, what we did wasn't a straightforward punishment spanking either.
      Danielle

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    8. Danielle, I can understand that. Even with the vanilla friend I told, the "edge" I talked about in terms of my feelings during our conversations definitely has an erotic tinge. I guess what I don't know is whether it had the same tinge on her end and whether it changed her feelings or thoughts when we have since gotten together and there was no talk of DD, spanking, sex, etc. For me, even when the conversation is totally vanilla, I am aware that she knows I get spanked. I have no idea whether it's at all similar on her end.

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    9. Danielle here:

      KD, your take on this makes a lot of sense to me.

      >>>If spanking is inescapably sexual, then please tell how it is then different than anything else, like even eating, driving a car, hell, how many times have I got a little turned on using my leaf blower?? Spanking may well be sexual, but only to the degree we understand it to be. For example, is spanking sexual to a vanilla person?<<<

      I understand you to be saying that anything can be sexual or not depending on the context and the way of thinking about it. I agree. Here’s an example. When I was growing up, one of the jobs my mother gave me was to clean my father’s shoes every evening because they would get dirty at construction sites. It annoyed me that I had to do it, but there was nothing remotely sexual about it. Subsequently, one of the duties I gave my husband as part of our FLR was to make sure my boots and shoes were polished every morning before I went to work, under threat of a spanking if he let me down. I know having to polish my boots is erotic for my husband, especially when I add the spanking threat. He has told me so. And knowing that it turns him on makes it kind of sexy for me too.

      As to whether spanking is sexual to a vanilla person, I would say, yes, it is to some extent. I had no sexual interest in spanking when my husband first asked for it, but I knew instinctively that he was asking me to do something sexual. That made me uncomfortable at first. I suspect most vanilla people think that way about adult/adult spanking. Once I became comfortable spanking my husband, I started to get some erotic pleasure from it myself. I think it was knowing the erotic effect on him that gave it an erotic edge for me, much like the boot polishing.

      >>>As for childhood spankings? There are those who claim they too were sexual on some level. When it comes to the complexity of human thought and our inherent sexual natures....even from birth, I truly question the accurate delineation of anything at any time of our lives as being inescapably one or the other.<<<

      That seems true to me too. My husband claims that spanking has always been sexual for him. I don’t think he is lying about that. For me there was nothing sexual about spanking when I was growing up, and I certainly didn’t think there was anything sexual about it when I occasionally spanked my sons. But I stopped spanking my sons at a certain age. I didn’t think a lot about it, I just had a feeling that beyond a certain age it was no longer “appropriate”.

      I suspect you are right that exhibitionism is a big part of it for men who are turned on by the idea of witnesses. I don't think my husband is as straightforwardly exhibitionist as you are. You seem to embrace your kinks with pride, so you probably don't feel as much embarrassment about being spanked in front of a witness as most men would. I think my husband is ambivalently exhibitionist, but exhibitionist nonetheless. Maybe I'm a bit of an exhibitionist too, given that I have an impulse to show off my power.

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    10. What I understand, anything can be sexual, and probably is to somebody out there wired for it. I’ve yet to be turned on by eating or driving a car. I keep an open mind, and at this moment am imagining nude leaf blowing performed by Bananarama. :)

      OTOH, the idea of spanking has turned me on since early childhood. That doesn’t mean I didn’t hate the reality of it growing up. There’s enough evidence of spanking being sexual. The buttocks as an erotic focus and an erogenous zone, the power exchange, the intimacy and vulnerability associated with authority relationships, perception of masculinity and femininity, etc. There are many people who don’t find conventional sex to be sexy, so it doesn’t take unanimous consent. Spanking is a relatively common kink because many people share an attraction to common potentially erotic elements inherent in it.

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    11. Hi KD,
      Hahahaha. I guess I should have expected that after saying spanking was sexual.

      "If spanking is inescapably sexual, then please tell how it is then different than anything else, like even eating, driving a car, hell, how many times have I got a little turned on using my leaf blower?? Spanking may well be sexual, but only to the degree we understand it to be. For example, is spanking sexual to a vanilla person?"

      Well, one difference is you don't have a blog that you maintain about using your leaf blower... ;-)

      But yes, I agree what is sexual to one person is not necessarily to another. I can only say for sure that I realized during my teenage years that to me spanking is VERY sexual. I remember the precise moment I made that discovery.

      And I speculate - but don't know - that even many/most vanilla people would view any form of CONSENSUAL adult spanking as spanking, if for no other reason than because they have seen things like "50 shades" and things like that.

      -ZM

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  9. "Does the spanker in your relationship have any desire/motivation to have a witness or to tell someone about your spanking relationship? If so, is it either telling someone, or having a witness, or both?"

    KDP: Rosa was always open with people about our arrangement. My blog is full of these anecdotes. As for witness or just telling? She has initiated some of both, and I have initiated others.

    "For those who have crossed the Rubicon and told someone or given a spanking in front of a witness, was it a one-time thing or a repeat occurrence?"

    Way back there was one which was a one-time thing. More recently it is a repeat thing including participation as well.

    "Is having an eyewitness more embarrassing or threatening than someone merely knowing that you get spanked?"

    For me it depends on the person.

    "Would someone hearing you get spanked be as embarrassing having an eyewitness?"

    Again, it depends on the person. I have been overheard many times and witnessed as well. There are similarities and differences and some are just pragmatically determined by who the other party is.

    "Would someone seeing the after-effects of a spanking be as embarrassing as witnessing the spanking itself?"

    It wasn't as bad as I thought. A lot has to do with who the person is, why they are being shown, and what their reaction is.

    "If you have told someone that you get/give disciplinary spankings, who did you tell and how did they react?"
    Nearly everyone close to us. Mostly positive, some even going beyond tolerance or acceptance to outright APPROVAL. Those approvals are the most embarrassing reactions for me.

    "If you have been spanked/given a spanking in front of a witness, how did the witness react? How did they feel about it, if you know?"

    Curiosity, support, approval, a bit of good-natured teasing.

    "How did it/how might it change your relationship with the person who knows or the witness?"

    It brings a bit of extra closeness. It kind of becomes a bonding experience and one there is no real way to erase. Once involved a witness/participant can't be UN-involved. And that is pretty powerful as well.

    But as I've said before, it seems to me that those who haven't done this who are intrigued by it might be surprised by how it plays out once done. It's way more of a bigger deal than it seems once it's been done. But I think that's true of anything that is desired but hitherto not yet experienced. I am involved in a situation where this even goes a step further ......with extra participants with authority and while it developed over time, and seemed a huge step before it happened, but now? It's still intense, but almost just another given.

    So like I've suggested before, if you want to do this, I can almost guarantee there's someone in your circle who'd be willing to be that witness. So just do it. It will inform you of what it's like better than any answer here. LOL

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    1. "Nearly everyone close to us. Mostly positive, some even going beyond tolerance or acceptance to outright APPROVAL. Those approvals are the most embarrassing reactions for me." I think I get that, because the approval entails a certain judgment about your behavior, right? When they approve, they are voicing some level of agreement that you *deserve* to be spanked.

      "Curiosity, support, approval, a bit of good-natured teasing." I think that sums up the reaction of the friend I told. And, maybe even a little bit of approval?

      I've always really admired you telling your mother, and her supportive reaction. While I don't feel any need to tell mine, I actually think she would have a similar reaction. She also is very, very supportive of my wife, so I think she would agree with pretty much anything that empowered her to take care of anything I did to offend or hurt.

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    2. Thanks. I still think about that. And it really led me to tell even others I would probably not have told.....like my daughter and her husband. But openness is liberating.

      Go encourage Anne to arrange a witness. Easier than you think. ;-)

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  10. O could not have any others know I take a bare paddling from my wife (totally deserved) and it works for us. But it would have to be just the two of us. Just to answer your question--If it had to be I would choose my older brother as he is also my best friend and growing up saw each other get bare paddlings---My brother an my wife get along great so that would help

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    1. Your comment just reminded me that I actually have witnessed spankings before, of a sibling.

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  11. Regarding intimacy and exhibitionism, it's certainly possible that some men's desire for a witnessed spanking is in part a desire for a sort of chaste threesome. Especially so if the witness is a attractive female family friend. But for a devoted and disciplined husband, maybe that's his most reasonable fantasy outlet!

    CrimsonKing

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  12. Having others present has many different aspects. Aunt Kay never embarrassed me in public. But on rare occasions she employed it privately; and even then it was quite measured.

    Anyway, by different aspects I mean that for example,it can be for the purpose of humiliation, or it can happen when like-minded people are already present - visiting etc and then there is the party situation too (which as Dan said, isn't exactly the same thing). But the aspect I have discussed before, maybe even a side effect, is the liberation and intimacy that is available fro it. The witness or witnesses become inside your circle of trust and privacy and, well, it's nice.

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    1. "The witness or witnesses become inside your circle of trust and privacy and, well, it's nice." I can see how that is very appealing. Though, there is also some paradox in it for me. As I said, I have told one "vanilla" friend, and there are a couple of female bloggers in the lifestyle (one as a Top, the other as a bottom). They are all very accepting and supportive and, in that sense part of the circle of trust you refer to. Yet, there also is an "edge" to my feelings in conversations with them, just from knowing that they know I get spanked and that those spankings are disciplinary. Their knowledge is always there in the back of my mind. It isn't negative in any way -- in fact, I enjoy the heightened sense of awareness and emotions. But, it definitely is there.

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    2. Hi Tomy,
      "The witness or witnesses become inside your circle of trust and privacy and, well, it's nice." - That does sound nice. I hadn't thought about it so much before, but maybe that is part of what I want. And it certainly does describe one way that somebody knowing about or witnessing a spanking would change the relationship.

      -ZM

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  13. That heightened sense of awareness sounds wonderful

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  14. Hi Dan,
    And finally my answers to the weeks questions. It has been the week from hell so I couldn't get to it earlier.

    "Does the spanker in your relationship have any desire/motivation to have a witness or to tell someone about your spanking relationship? If so, is it either telling someone, or having a witness, or both?"

    - I think she does have an interest on some level, though particularly due to the difficulties of living in such a closed, traditional society, she is also quite hesitant to cross that bridge. While she is likely to do neither, I think she is much more likely to tell someone than to have them as a witness.

    "For those who have crossed the Rubicon and told someone or given a spanking in front of a witness, was it a one-time thing or a repeat occurrence?"

    - We haven't, but have kind of hinted at it (regarding telling others) with a few different people as I have recounted several times over the past few months. So it is possible that at least one person suspects, but doesn't know. Even if we do completely tell someone, or for that matter even if they are a witness, I don't think this is likely to be something that would be repeated with others since we will always keep it pretty private.

    "Is having an eyewitness more embarrassing or threatening than someone merely knowing that you get spanked?"

    I have no idea, but I would think so. I expect it would be both more embarrassing because they actually saw it, but then at the same time it makes the whole thing more concrete, so it might actually turn out to be something less than they might have visualized.

    "Would someone hearing you get spanked be as embarrassing having an eyewitness?"

    -Again, I wouldn't think that just hearing would be as embarrassing as them seeing, particularly since they wouldn't have to see my unfit, overweight body, but again I don't really know.

    "Would someone seeing the after-effects of a spanking be as embarrassing as witnessing the spanking itself?"

    For me, this seems much less embarrassing, but I have no idea why?

    "If you have told someone that you get/give disciplinary spankings, who did you tell and how did they react?"

    - We haven't told, but the little we did tell was met with a certain amusement.

    "If you have been spanked/given a spanking in front of a witness, how did the witness react? How did they feel about it, if you know?"

    - Hasn't happened!

    "How did it/how might it change your relationship with the person who knows or the witness?"

    - I think it would bring a lot more trust and closeness, as all shared secrets or private knowledge do.

    -ZM

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