“To say that we mutually agree to coercion is not to say that we are required to enjoy it, or even to pretend we enjoy it.” - Garrett Hardin
Hello all. Welcome back to the Disciplinary Couples Club. Our weekly gathering of men and women who are in, or would like to be in, Domestic Discipline relationships.
I hope you all had a great week. It was another snowy one here. I’m getting kind of tired of it. But, did you notice that we had another semi-normal week with a paucity of controversial national or international news. Could it be that the spirit of 2020 is FINALLY behind us?
I thought that was a great conversation last week. Thank you, Liz, for both the stories of getting spanked as a girl, and the discussion about regionalism and its influence on spanking practices and frequency when we were growing up. The focus on regionalism reminded me of this meme I saw recently and thought was pretty funny:
Part of the discussion about how prevalent spankings were in the communities where some of us grew up reminded me of this cartoon, which totally cracks me up:
I don’t know why, but
something about that – having to report to a third party that you got you got a
hard spanking because of something involving them – does something to me. It’s why I found this pic that I posted last
week really fascinating, along with this one that I also saw recently (perhaps
on Red’s blog?). I wonder who they are
talking to?
This week’s topic is a suggestion by ZM from two weeks ago. He said:
Perhaps the more interesting issue than consent (which we have talked about extensively) is coercion. What role does coercion play in spanking? Just because DD is consensual, it doesn't mean that coercion isn't also being employed. Why do I take down my pants and bend over for a spanking? And what effect does that coercion have? Is it desirable or undesirable? And what does the interplay between coercion, dominance, and submission look like? BTW, coercion doesn't just apply to spanking. About the most interesting thing about the whole NXIUM cult was their use of "collateral" to use to coerce members into achieving their personal goals.
Even though we both know that I will in every case submit to her will on this, I still want to feel like she is coercing me somewhat. I want her to threaten me about what will happen if I check out other women, for example. Right now I am trying to lose weight, and I like knowing (though I dread it) that if I don't hit my weight target my bottom is going to pay a hefty price. In a very real way, this is similar to NXIUM only it is physical and personal.
I’ve read a lot about NXIUM since I first brought it up here many months ago, and I now do appreciate that a lot of what its leadership did really was appalling, particularly the Scientology-like way they retaliated and harassed anyone who tried to leave. And, then there was his thing for underaged girls and anorexic female bodies. But, some of the stuff he and his lieutenant came up with to help people reach their own goals and improve their performance still fascinates me. As ZM points out, there is a more or less direct analogy between what he was doing and our DD notions of consensual non-consent or, as ZM has focused on, coercion. The members of the group would turn over something that was valuable or, more often, embarrassing, knowing that if they didn’t do what they had agreed it would be forfeited or released to the world. Something I never quite got about the prosecution’s case was it sounded like there wasn’t much dispute that handing over this “collateral” was entirely voluntary, and the whole goal was for it to be used coercively to effect a behavioral change. So, there was consent to the overall arrangement, but after that there was a very coercive element. Also, there actually was a very “physical and personal” element to it, and it was exactly what we use with DD. This text exchange was highlighted in the HBO series about NXIUM:
ZM’s thoughts on this led these
observations from Alan:
The consensual model has been borrowed from contemporary norms of sexual behavior and it is not a perfect fit for adult spanking. That is why we have invented incongruities like “consensual non consent”. “Consent” doesn’t fit that well both due to the nature of disciplinary spanking and due to the needs of most spankos to feel a punishment is being imposed on them or they are being made to obey. To complicate it even further, a lot of the spankings I get are really not wanted (at the time) and for sure during many spankings I do not want it to continue (at that time).Later of course I am very happy she did what she did. Thus the dilemma, how does one consent to something really not wanted (at the time). The answer I think is that consent once given is in practice rarely withdrawn as long as the relationship continues.
And, this from Brett:
Thinking about it, I’d have to say that the why does matter. If I’m obedient to my wife because I’m such a nice guy, or I love her just that much, or I’m naturally submissive, hate confrontations or other such character traits, it’s missing the key ingredient that my obedience is compelled by the threat of a spanking. Obedience is also demonstrated in the submission to punishment, but what makes it so embarrassing and humbling is when obedience is perceived to be compelled, not by willing submission, but by her will to power.
Belle observed that her man submitting to a spanking voluntarily is sexy, but it sounds like even there the sexual charge in the obedience isn’t the submission itself but, rather, that it is happening as a direct result of her exercise of female or authority, or what Brett called her “will to power.”
For me, the “imposed” element of DD, the act of being brought to heel by another’s expression of will and power, has always been a key part of the attraction. The very first fiction story on the Disciplinary Wives Club website is about a woman imposing a spanking, and the entire DD relationship, in retribution for some comments her husband made about another woman. At first, he can’t believe what she is saying. Then he objects, then starts trying to plead, leading her to tell him exactly how it is going to be:
“At that point Becky's look became determined; her voice quiet, but assured. "I will forget it after I have brought you to tears, dear, then all will be forgiven. But I don't want you to think for one instant that there is ANY way you can avoid my spanking you. There isn't. And furthermore, in the future, I shall make it a practice to spank you whenever I feel you need it, and you will accept it as you did your mother's spankings. Most men can profit from a dose of maternal discipline, and from now on you will be one of the lucky ones."
While the woman imposing the DD relationship is certainly
the exception and not the rule, it does seem to be a powerful part of the attraction. It certainly is for me. As is the idea of coercion. I really do wish there was something Anne
would do that would make it clear that while being spanked by her may have been
my idea initially, now there is no going back. I think part of my attraction to Jay Em's drawings like the one above has always been that there really is not much of an element of consent. Similarly, in KD's story that we discussed last week, there may ultimately be consent, but only after a very large dose of coercion.
Yet, it is complicated. One thing I’ve never been able to figure out is how I can be so completely anti-authoritarian at work, yet I have this thing for being under the authority of a strong, aggressive woman. I have almost no respect for authority at work and never have, especially if that authority is a man. Yet, I’ve talked here about a dream I had that involved being taken out of an office gathering to be spanked by a male office manager. And, the prospect of being bossed around by a very strong woman absolutely does something to me. Even more complicated, stories like Danielle’s about her husband being spanked on the orders of another man and then having to report the spanking to that other man definitely do spark that desire I have to submit to authority. It is a very odd mix of personality attributes, and I really don’t have a good explanation for it.
The other issue is, coercion and imposed discipline may be a compelling fantasy, but in real life I think they are much more complicated. My friend Jane over at the Tamed Shrew blog, https://shrewtamed.blogspot.com/, recently talked about a situation in which her husband suddenly decided to spank her for something that actually was “spankable” under their arrangement, but it came after a long break and took her by surprise. The result was resistance and resentment. KD has also talked about the necessity, for him, of agreeing on some level that the facts actually do support the fairness or justice of the sentence. In short, it does seem like in the real world some amount of “buy in” probably is required.
Though, again, it’s complicated. I can’t think of a time when Anne has spanked me that I thought I truly did not deserve it. But, there have been a couple of times that I thought it was much harder than had really been earned. And, yeah, in the moment I did feel resentment about it. But, afterward, it was a turn-on thinking about her exercising her power and authority like that, spanking as long and as hard as she thought I deserved.
Like ZM, I don’t know exactly where to take this topic, and I probably have drifted a little from “coercion” and into non-consent. But, feel free to address whatever aspects of the two come to mind.
Have a great week.
Well I think you summed up my take on this nicely and accurately. I can't speak for what others do or think, but I don't agree with coercion beyond a reasonable point. My recent Covid punishment is a good example. Rosa said that she was determined to eventually spank me but not until I was ready to accept it as deserved. And one could say her determination was coercion....but I don't think so because IF I NEVER came to accept it as deserved, the spanking would not happen. So I keep going back to my assertion that unless you are chained to a radiator like Christina Ricci in Black Snake Moan, you are giving consent every time you willingly bend over.
ReplyDeleteI have heard (and considered) that someone desperate for DD, threatened with the termination of it unless an undesired punishment was accepted, could be considered to be coerced. But ......not really. They are making a choice. What good is forcing someone into something that may well lead to the end of the relationship?
Now there is also degree and how certain things feel. A guilty spouse, caught red-handed and obviously guilty is told a punishment is coming and out of fear, mood, pride, etc. they "resist" or protest with a "No don't spank me, I won't do it again." But the disciplinarian stands firm and the culprit gives in to the fairness and inevitability of it even as they remain unhappy about what is to follow....they may feel coerced. But are they really being forced or just confronted with something they know is fair?
Overcoming an instinctive protest in the moment is a far cry from imposing something that is truly unwanted. I would not call that coercion, but perhaps a kind of authoritarian persuasion. Think of it this way, since a lot here equate spanking with sex to a degree, what OF sex? Is there a difference between pleasing a horny spouse even if one is not fully in the mood, and being raped? Absolutely. And the rape IS coercion. I don't think anyone here is being "rape-spanked". And blackmail would probably be coercion too to a larger degree, but even a blackmail victim can refuse and accept the unpleasant consequences. But again I don't think anyone here is being blackmailed......hence what IS going on is probably consensual ALL of the time.
(love the cartoon in the classroom and biting my lip on the last two captions. LOL)
I don't really disagree that in the final analysis, being spanked or otherwise punished, always involves some element of consent absent some physical force or restraint? But, so does pretty much everything in life. If I don't eat I will die, but in choosing to eat I am giving in, i.e. consenting to my body's coercive tactics in making me hungry.
DeleteI also see a difference between non-consent and coercion, though I think that difference is one of degree and they are both points on a spectrum. As applied to discipline, there are those who may have initiated DD themselves for their own benefit on things like overcoming a bad habit. I think the benign side of NXIVM falls into that category. Then, there is DD with some kind of coercive element, which is something along the lines of your "Pride" story or the story on the DWC site that I referenced above. Then there is the pure non-consent area, which is common with corporal punishment of kids but probably pretty rare in adults (though I have a fear--prejudiced or not--that some of the CDD stuff comes pretty close). On the rape example, I see that as far more than coercion. To me, coercion means that some pressure is being put on you to do something you don't really want to do, but you ultimately decide to do it in response to that coercive pressure. Some predatory sexual behavior might fall into that category, but to me rape is in that category where you've really moved entirely out of consent coerced or otherwise.
And, that cartoon really does crack me up. I don't know why, but I also find the pics of the two women on the phone very compelling.
DeleteI think those two pictures are compelling (for you) because those girls have obviously been forbidden from pulling their pants up, and the phone call must be to make an apology because why else would they be making it bare-bottomed?
DeleteFind us one of a husband making a call like that!
Belle
Dan: I posted a new comment below with the definition of coercion. I don't think being hungry fits. There may well be several influential factors that emanate from the Top rather than from a need from the bottom that convince a reluctant person to accept punishment, but unless they include force or threats, it's not coercion. It could be 'persuasion', though. Rosa can be very persuasive at times, but never by using threats. As for persuasion? Hell, what is there that doesn't fall into some category or degree of persuasion? ;-)
DeleteBelle: It's interesting that in my fairly large collection of DD-related drawings and captioned pics, I have several that show women who have been spanked or are going to be talking on the phone. And, I have several of women who have delivered a spanking talking on the phone while husband is in the corner or doing a chore while displaying a read ass. But, I can't find a single one showing the man on the phone. Odd.
DeleteKD: See below regarding definitions.
That is interesting, since some of you spanked husbands seem to have the fantasy of being made to apologize to someone else after being spanked, and it actually has happened to Dan. I think if I "made" Jimmy make a phone call of apology while his bottom was bare and red, I would find it erotic. Especially if he was apologizing to someone I knew well. They would never know he called with a bare and red bottom, but I would think about it every time I saw the person. I might even ask him/her if the apology was received and if it was appropriately given, letting the person know that I was the likely impetus for the apology. Probably never happen, but ...
DeleteBelle, it's not a fantasy for me. It has happened often and continues to happen. And yes, it is embarrassing.
DeleteIt definitely was not a fantasy of mine before she made me apologize. Frankly, it was mortifying. It would not have been nearly as bad if it had been someone who I otherwise liked but had genuinely wronged in some way. What made it super hard was that this was someone who, at the time, I seriously disliked and a whole bunch of people in our local profession would have agreed with me! And, while my comments to him turned out to be wrong and a result of me misinterpreting something he said, a lot of people would have thought my assumption was pretty justified in light of his general MO. In other words, I had basically accused him of being an asshole, but most people who knew him would have predicted I was right. That dynamic--being forced to apologize to someone I didn't like for an offense that was unjustified this particular time but might have been perfectly justified some other time--made it really hard. It's the male hierarchy thing again. This was someone who I most definitely did *not* want to seem subservient to.
DeleteBeing told by your wife that you have to apologize to a third party seems like it would be mortifying in itself. Being made to apologize to someone you can't stand and are in competition with at work enhances the mortification exponentially. I can't imagine what Jimmy would say if I told him he had to apologize to one of the other lineman. "Yea, Jimmy, climb up the telephone pole after him and tell him you're sorry." Uh, No.
DeleteBeing told I must apologize to someone would be something that I would find very awkward and uncomfortable. At the same time, looking at it from outside the situation, I can also say that it is a very reasonable demand, since if someone has wronged someone, they should apologize. So if our wives are keeping us accountable in other ways, it is not really that hard to imagine that she might also expect us to do the right thing and apologize when necessary.
DeleteBut I wouldn't like it...!
-ZM
I am not into spanking fiction at all but I read "Pride" because of all the comments here. Frst, it's a good story from kd. Here's my take on the ending: The husband truly is humbled and mortified to be punished so severely by his "enemy." He knows things will never be the same, that it is now clear that she is an alpha and he is a beta and he will not be able to argue with her without consequences from her as well as his wife. This is very humbling. But now that he is unequivocally below her in the pecking order and has to accept that, he realizes that it also is pretty sexy to be getting spanked by another woman. That is the positive side effect of what otherwise is a very humiliating situation. And that realization makes him smile.
DeleteSince Jimmy has never refused to take a spanking, or objected in any manner, my first reaction is that this is direct consent and not even non-consensual consent, let alone coercion, which I spoke against last week. But when I think really hard about it, I must admit that when Jimmy and I were talking about getting back together, I said, "There's no going back on the spanking thing. I need that authority." He agreed. In one sense that is coercion: I was implying that if he refused to be spanked, we wouldn't get back together, and if he refused in the future, it could end our relationship (though I don't think it would).
ReplyDeleteOn a daily basis, though, I want him to display his obedience. I would be really upset if I had to somehow coerce him each time.
Belle
I also greatly identify with the wife saying, "I should have done this years ago." Like 14 years ago, on our wedding night.
DeleteBelle
I don't see that as coercion. You simply set your ground rules. He was free to decline. And if during the course of your escapades he strongly objected to a decreed punishment, he would still be free to decline.
DeleteI do see it as, perhaps, a soft form of coercion. I don't think coercion and non-consent are the same thing.
DeleteHave any other couples here been living this lifestyle since getting married? Most of the people here give the impression that they adopted it at a later date.
DeleteMy wife and I have practiced this since before we were married. However, I am not sure that it is really that much of a lifestyle for us. She does have weekly check-ins to hold me accountable, but I really haven't been disciplined all that much in the past several months at least (it feels kind of ironic because I just got it two nights ago, but before that it had been a while).
Delete-ZM
And I agree with KD that there is almost always a choice being made, even with coercion. Jimmy could have chosen not getting back together with me in order to stop being spanked. I knew he wasn't going to make that choice, but he had the opportunity to do so. He also could stop the spanking at any time, but he knows as well as I do the positive benefit of me having some tangible authority over him.
ReplyDeleteI said to him the other day after paddling his behind for disrespect and making him apologize, "You can be respectful to women and still be your macho self." He thought for moment and said, "I believe that too." Then he said, "Let's go in the bedroom and I'll show you my macho self." Which I gladly did.
Belle
LOL I just left my reply and then saw this. Wow, talk about being on the same page! LOL
DeleteMacho is still relative. I regard it as macho for a man to be willing to take this sort of punishment from his wife whenever she desires. This takes more guts than chickening out and walking away from a marriage as Belle alluded to.
DeleteI agree that taking punishment that was earned takes real guts. At the same time, I also don't really maintain any illusions that I look all that macho while I am being punished, and rather I look more like a contrite naughty boy.
Delete-ZM
Consent presents an interesting conundrum. If I consent to be dominated by my wife, and to allowing her to take a lover, do I also consent to her allowing her lover to dominate me for her own amusement/benefit?
ReplyDeleteThe Femdom aspect is a little beyond the scope of the topic I think, but I suppose it depends on the scope of your consent re: being dominated
DeleteDanielle here:
ReplyDeleteAlthough I agree with KD that there always needs to be consent in a D/s relationship, I must confess I like the *feeling* that it is possible to coerce my husband to bend to my will in ways he would never script for himself.
Brett talked about "obedience" being "compelled by the threat of a spanking." The way I see the situation with my husband, the coercion isn't as straightforward as that. If I back up a command with the threat of a spanking, my husband will obey me. I rarely have to follow through on a spanking threat because threats work. Is that because my husband is coerced by fear of a spanking? I don't think so. A reason my husband gave for going to a professional disciplinarian was that he wanted to experience "at least once in his life" the kind of harsh spanking that would inspire fear. In other words, he didn't fear the spankings I gave; nevertheless, he behaved as though he did. Why? (Incidentally, I have since started to give Wayne something to fear in the way I spank him, but I’m still not sure the spanking in itself is coercive. Men like him will pay for spankings like that).
I think the coercion occurs upstream of the spanking. My husband is not always happy about having to obey me. If he was, FLR would feel like controlling a robot, which would be boring. It feels exciting and sexy when there is a contest of wills... a stacked contest, but a contest nonetheless.
What is the mysterious power I have to “coerce” my husband to do as he's told, though it may make him grind his teeth? Maybe it is his sense of honor. We have agreed formally to FLR, so he is honor-bound to obey me, even though he may not want to.
I have sometimes punished Wayne by taking away TV privileges. One time I did that not realizing it was a harsher sentence than I intended because that week encompassed Super Bowl Sunday. I might have relented if Wayne had simply asked me nicely whether I realized it would mean he wouldn’t be able to watch the Super Bowl with his buddies. But Wayne made the mistake of getting upset and saying, "You can't do that." Being told I *couldn't* do it annoyed me, so I dug my heels in. Then it became a contest of wills. He complained it was unfair, but the more he complained, the firmer I became in my resolve. Not only did he miss the game that year, but I ended up paddling him for being sulky on game day. To be honest, I felt like a bit of a bitch for sticking to my guns on that occasion, but it was perversely satisfying too. Afterwards, he wrote in his journal that my strictness was sexy, even though he had felt the punishment was unfairly harsh.
Was my behavior coercive? It felt coercive to me, and I imagine it felt coercive to him, but as KD says, he had a choice whether to comply or not.
"I think the coercion occurs upstream of the spanking. My husband is not always happy about having to obey me. If he was, FLR would feel like controlling a robot, which would be boring. It feels exciting and sexy when there is a contest of wills... a stacked contest, but a contest nonetheless."
DeleteI really like that, and I think your answer points out that I tend to think about this issue of "imposed" discipline from a very one-sided perspective. I think about it mainly in terms of what the feeling of having my will overcome does for me, or what the fantasy of it does. But, it obviously could become a very erotic and empowering thing for the woman itself. Power definitely is an interesting little aphrodisiac, as it seems to have potentially big effects on both the one wielding it and the one subjected to it.
Danielle,
DeleteYou wrote: “If I back up a command with the threat of a spanking, my husband will obey me. I rarely have to follow through on a spanking threat because threats work. Is that because my husband is coerced by fear of a spanking? I don't think so …. (Incidentally, I have since started to give Wayne something to fear in the way I spank him, but I’m still not sure the spanking in itself is coercive.”
The impulse to obey loving female authority is nuanced and complex as you have written. But don’t discount the power of a spanking or the credible threat of one to produce obedience. I don’t fear every spanking I get but I also know she is capable of spanking me to tears and Russian roulette was never my game, so a threat from her is very credible. But even if I feel lucky (the spanking won’t be too bad), why taunt fate. It’s much easier and safer to obey. Spankos can fantasize a spanking to come or even one that been delivered. But once a spanking is imminent (and a threat qualifies as imminent for us), it’s all very real and something to be avoided. I am not saying a woman should have to threaten a spanking or deliver one to get consistent obedience. But in those situation where it’s needed, it does work
Alan
Dan wrote: >>>I think about it mainly in terms of what the feeling of having my will overcome does for me, or what the fantasy of it does. But, it obviously could become a very erotic and empowering thing for the woman itself. Power definitely is an interesting little aphrodisiac, as it seems to have potentially big effects on both the one wielding it and the one subjected to it.<<<
DeleteDan, I'm not sure I find power in itself to be an aphrodisiac. For example, I can't imagine getting turned on by the type of power involved in workplace hierarchies. I think it is a bit of an aphrodisiac in the context of FLR and DD because it is erotic power. Even when it serves a practical purpose that isn't explicitly erotic, like assigning housework, it feels sexy to me because I know it is erotic for my husband.
Alan wrote: >>>The impulse to obey loving female authority is nuanced and complex as you have written. But don’t discount the power of a spanking or the credible threat of one to produce obedience. I don’t fear every spanking I get but I also know she is capable of spanking me to tears and Russian roulette was never my game, so a threat from her is very credible. But even if I feel lucky (the spanking won’t be too bad), why taunt fate. <<
Alan, I don't "discount the power of a spanking or the credible threat of one to produce obedience." As mentioned, spanking threats work well with my husband. But I am not convinced that fear of spankings, even hard spankings, is a direct deterrent to disobedience. Not sure how to explain this. If I say to my husband, "Unless you do x, I am going to spank you," I don't think he obeys simply to avoid being spanked. I think he obeys because he is turned on by the power structure that enables me to make that threat, and his obedience is an erotic response. There are "professional disciplinarians" who make money spanking men really hard. I could say to my husband, "Unless you do x, I'm going to show that a real spanking doesn't have to cost $200." You see what I mean? How can you truly threaten a person with something he would willingly pay for? And when I follow through on a spanking threat, it's not to make him fear the consequences of future disobedience. It's to reinforce the erotic power structure that motivates him to do what I tell him. I am talking about my own experience with my husband. I don't know how it is for other couples.
Danielle
"Dan, I'm not sure I find power in itself to be an aphrodisiac. For example, I can't imagine getting turned on by the type of power involved in workplace hierarchies."
DeleteIt's true -- context is important. I have found power in the workplace to be an aphrodisiac as applied to some particular female leaders, but it's hard for me to separate workplace hierarchies from other areas in which power might be attractive, because when I have encountered very strong female personalities or women who were powerful by virtue of their positions, it has tended to be in a workplace setting. Though, it also was a thing for me with female teachers growing up.
Dan, out of curiosity, do you think that thing you had for female teachers while growing up was an early stage of the thing you have for DD now? You have said that where you grew up spanking was still used for discipline in schools. Is that why you had a thing for some female teachers?
DeleteHaving said that I don't find anything sexy about workplace hierarchies, I can see how that could change with context. For example, if I was your boss at work and I somehow found out that you were the person running this blog, I think being your boss would suddenly feel different, even if you didn't know I knew. I mean, it would be hard to resist pushing your buttons in subtle ways, especially if the effects of doing that showed up in your blog. And if labor law permitted workplace spanking discipline, I think workplace hierarchies would become sexualized really fast. Lol.
Come to think of it, I have heard it said that the reason so many politicians have been busted for philandering is that their quest for power is directly linked to their sex drive. I guess men like that must find power sexy. Also, lots of women are turned on by men with power. For example, I know women who find Bill Clinton hot, even though he is (or was) a philandering bum. And Wayne once told me that when Henry Kissinger was at the height of his influence, he was considered to be one of the sexiest men in the USA. I found that hard to believe, but Wayne found an old article about that online.
Do you think Republican women find Donald Trump hot? Ewww! What a horrible thought. ;-)
Danielle
Danielle, I don't really know whether the thing I had for female teachers while growing up was an early stage of the thing I have for DD now? I suspect they are related at their core, but not connected in an obvious way by spanking. The teachers I was attracted to were high school, and spanking was not a thing by that level in the town I had moved to by then. I definitely don't recall any of the teachers I had crushes on doing any spanking at school. But, it probably was an early manifestation of my current gravitation toward strong female authority.
DeleteYou jest but, yes, I do think a disturbing number of women probably find Donald Trump hot and/or they are very turned on by his wealth. Or, at least, I think they are turned on by him vis-a-vis the competition. Ted Cruz? Ew. Lindsey Graham -- barking up the wrong tree ladies. Marco Rubio? Short little dude nervously chugging water -- yeah, that's an attractive look. I've always believed that people's underlying physical attraction to candidates plays a way bigger role in elections that people will comfortably acknowledge. And, while I know it will make people cringe, when she was Bill's wife and up through the time she ran against Obama, I actually thought Hillary was pretty attractive. I felt that way even more when I read about her doing vodka shots with McCain.
I have never found a politician hot because I am not attracted to prevarication.
DeleteHonestly, public figures who I am never going to meet don't turn me on. I am much more into the real thing. Like 6-2, 205, buff and handsome. Oh wait, that's my husband!
This is Arthur. Liz asked me to address this topic.
ReplyDeleteFor Liz, it's very simple. She believes everything is consensual. I asked to be punished by her. I helped design the system in which I am paddled every Monday. I agree that paddling improves my behavior. All clearly are consent.
But for me it is not that simple. On many Monday mornings, I do not want to be paddled. I accept the paddling because I agreed to our system of punishment. This feels like consensual non-consent to me. But I don't think she is coercing me. She doesn't threaten me with some other consequence if I were to refuse the paddling.
And I don't ever refuse. I feel like I can't ever refuse. I have heard other men on here say that. One reason I can't refuse is that I fear what might happen if I did. Maybe she would stop DD completely. Maybe she would be extremely disappointed. I would be extremely disappointed in myself for going back on my word. I can't do that. I guess I technically am choosing to not do that, but it doesn't feel like a choice. It feels like a must.
Hi Arthur. It does seem like yours began not only consensually but at your instigation and for your own recognized betterment. But, I get what you mean about the pressure you feel by virtue of your own commitments. And, honestly, thank god most people are wired to feel some pressure to live up to their agreements and commitments, right?
DeleteSocial pressure and our own reluctance to disappoint or offend are interesting phenomena. It reminds me of a great scene in the movie The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo. The protagonist has been investigating the home of the person who hired him and who he has now come to suspect is a serial killer. The killer shows up, and the protagonist almost escapes. The killer sees him leaving and pretends to accept his excuse that he had come over to discuss the case. He invites him back for a drink, and against his much better judgment, the protagonist complies. After the killer inevitably turns the tables, he observes:
"It's funny how the fear of offending is greater than the fear of pain. You knew something was wrong. You knew you would end up strung up in the basement. Yet you came back. And all I had to do was...offer you a drink."
Hi Arthur,
Delete"I guess I technically am choosing to not do that, but it doesn't feel like a choice. It feels like a must." Exactly! It is not necessarily that our wives are coercing us in the sense that there literally is no choice but to submit, since unless you are unconscious and/or physically restrained you always have other choices in every situation in life. But that doesn't mean that you don't feel pressure, and it doesn't mean that it feels like there is a choice. I can simultaneously want to live in a smooth flowing society with law, order, and some measure of safety and very grudgingly pay a speeding ticket that I might have gotten. Choices are everywhere, but the whole idea of DD is that we give someone else authority over us to helping us do or become what we want in the long term by forcing us to do what we don't want to do in the short term, and giving us immediate consequences (that we also don't want) if we fail to do so.
-ZM
I was actually planning to talk about my feelings on speeding tickets as an example of how coercive discipline can be both (a) necessary and (b) effective. Except in cases where I myself think the road or traffic conditions make driving faster unsafe, the prospect of getting tickets and losing my license is the one and only reason I ever obey the speed limit.
DeleteZM: I totally get what you're saying but have to say that I don't ever feel that way. I simply refuse to let coercion be a tool Rosa can use. She can use reason, be firm, have an opinion, persuade, be emotional, share her feelings, give me time to see her side on my own, all sorts of things, but a "because I said so!" or some ultimatum would only start a real argument and not end well for anyone.
DeleteIf you give someone that level of power over you, you are just asking for trouble in my opinion (and experience).....maybe not right away, but over time. DD and D/s have enough power imbalance to keep the roles clear, there simply is no need for excess. "Absolute power..." ya know.
Hi KD,
DeleteI get where you are coming from. I know that you shared before that you had a negative experience in the past, and no doubt that gives you a different perspective. I actually want to feel a little bit of that exercised authority.
I agree that absolute power does inevitably lead to problems. In our relationship, we have a very high level of trust, so I feel pretty comfortable with her exercising her judgement because in every case - whether DD or otherwise - she has always acted with my best interests in mind. But, as you also said, in the end we do always give consent, if not situational then overall at least, so if I saw that she was acting in ways that were not beneficial for me, I might re-think the whole consent thing.
The one danger of giving someone control is that you need to be very aware that it can lead to problems, and if they become too able to manipulate you, it can be kind of like in Dan's "The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo" example above, where you might recognize that it is going wrong but still proceed forward. So caution is always warranted when ceding any level of control to someone else.
-ZM
ZM & Dan: I know that scene in "Girl w/Dragon Tattoo" and find it a bit implausible.,,,or at least eyeroll-inducing. Norton's character just found PROOF of this guy's danger level. There was no grey area. I know that I was thinking "what the fuck are you doing? Make an excuse, back away and then run like hell!" I was joking with Rosa, "a drink? No thanks, I'm a bit busy. I have to run and make a 911 call." When he went inside willingly and was about to be dismembered, I thought, "you deserve it you idiot!" LOL I consider myself a pretty polite person. (Very "please" and "thank you" and "excuse me") but my politeness does not extend so far as to not being able to decline a drink invitation from a dangerous killer. There's polite and then there's dumb. LOL
DeleteI kind of agree with you, but the more I watch that movie, the more I think his character has this pretty wimpy, submissive vibe. Maybe saying "no" wasn't his strong suit?
DeleteA while back I was going to physical therapy for my back. I knew it was needed but I hated the idea of going. I went and it was just as miserable an experience as I thought. I hated it, truly hated it.... but it helped. At the end of a session I would pay my co-pay and schedule my next appointment. Once I made the appointment, I was expected to show up. If I didn't cancel ahead of time I could be charged anyway. Was I being coerced? Or was I going along with something I found unpleasant because it might help me in the long run?
ReplyDeleteWhen I got Covid I couldn't go anymore. And now that I am recovered I could go back, but have decided to just continue the exercises on my own. The place called a few times to see if I was going to schedule something and I declined. In y mind I was free to choose to go even though I hated it, and free to decide not to go when I no longer felt it benefitted me.
Is there anyone here not free to do the same with DD? The online definition for 'coerce': "persuade (an unwilling person) to do something by using force or threats." Does that describe your DD relationship? If it does......well......I wish you a lot of luck. LOL
True, that is one definition, but the first one that comes up in Merriam-Webster does not include the notion that coercion must involve "force or threats." Instead, it simply says: "to compel to an act or choice." While the overlaps and distinctions are not precise, I think there is some point where, and maybe a lot of points, where there is little if any daylight between "persuasion" and "coercion" and, to me, neither of them are the same as non-consent.
DeleteI agree with KD that coercion is neither possible nor desirable if you use the definition he does. But it certainly is possible if one uses the definition Dan used, "to compel to an act or choice." It gets complicated when you consider that the pretense of coercion can also be part of an erotic mind game within FLR.
DeleteDanielle
Dan: "Compel" is a pretty direct word to use. It certainly isn't "persuade". I therefore like your word scale and agree with it. It would even be fun to expand it with other more nuanced choices. But ultimately it makes sense and everyone can draw their lines where they like. For me it is obviously between "persuade" nd "coerce". LOL
DeleteI agree that there must be some form of coercion that is not criminal. A gun to the head or a threat of blackmail are criminal coercion. If a boss says, "Do this or you're fired," that is coercion but (likely) not criminal. The employee technically has a choice, but not really if he/she needs the job to feed their family and is afraid about getting another job. That's more than persuasion or consensual non-consent.
ReplyDeleteWhat would be a coercive DD act? I think I'm "guilty" of one when I told Jimmy that DD has to be part of our reunification. He has wanted to get back together for all of the three years we were apart. He never would have broken up in the first place. So am I coercing him by making it a requirement of us getting back together? Yes. Does he still have a choice, as KD argues? Technically he does, but not really. He must agree to get what he wants, which is me. That level of choice is still coercion.
Do I feel bad about coercing him? Honestly, not a bit.
I know this may be different from some of my previous answers, but my ideas on this are changing.
And is there an implied threat of, "If you don't accept this particular spanking, I might break up with you again?" I would never ever say that to my husband, nor do I feel that way. But he may believe it. It may be a real implied coercive threat to him. And unless he brings it up as an issue, I'm inclined to let it exist. It strengthens my authority over him.
DeleteBelle, your views are pretty close to mine. I see all these corresponding levels of pressure and choice as points on a spectrum, with purely voluntarily, freely chosen compliance and even instigation on one end, and force or threats of force on the other, with "persuasion" and then "coercion" at different points between those two ends of the spectrum. For me, the sequence is something like: instigating (Arthur, Jimmy and me)>>>fully voluntary compliance based on mutual agreement>>>persuasion>>>coercion>>>non-consent.
DeleteHi Dan and Belle,
DeleteI totally agree with you guys on this one. There is definitely a spectrum. If you just say, "well there was a choice that was made, so it was consensual," then most crimes fit in in that category. Someone comes in, points a gun at the clerk, and the clerk "chooses" to give them money. Someone holds a knife to her neck, and shec chooses to love so suddenly it becomes consensual sex? Someone is in prison, and they don't commit suicide (since escape is usually impossible), so they are staying there consensually? I don't think so on any of those, and I don't think KD or anyone else really thinks that, since it would make them either an idiot or a monster. Instead, I view much of this as just playing with semantics - which I agree in some contexts can be important, but not necessarily in this one.
So maybe "coercion" isn't the right word. Who really cares? Yes, I am in a consensual relationship. Hopefully we all are... Yet at the time my wife spanks me, I DON'T WANT TO BE SPANKED! Do I choose to get spanked? NO! Do I choose to stop it? also no. But even if I don't physically resist, it is far different than if I went to her and asked her to spank me. Instead, in the moment I feel pressured to accept whatever discipline she decides to dish out because I know that if I resist, or at least if I resist often, she will be unlikely to keep that aspect of our relationship going. Yesterday, she sent me a text message telling me to put down my phone or I would pay for it last night. Did I want to put down my phone and pay attention to people? Not really. But did I want her to punish me last night? Not at all, even though I do want us to have a DD/FLR relationship!
-ZM
Oops, it was supposed to read "Someone holds a knife to her neck, and she chooses to live..." rather than "she chooses to love"
DeleteI was wondering if that was what you meant to say and suspected not. :-)
DeleteDan,
DeleteI think there may be more steps on the continuum:
>>>full voluntary compliance based on mutual agreement>>>reluctant voluntary compliance>>>consensual non-consent>>>persuasion>>>following a direct command to consent>>>coercion>>>non-consent (refusal).
I like this word game a lot!
Deletedesire----seek----agree------ accept------comply------acquiesce-------oblige-----obey--------compelled------coerced-----given an ultimatum-----forced--------calling 911. ;-)
Obey. Yes. Obedience is my new favorite word.
DeleteOne of my girlfriends and I had a conversation over coffee the other day that went something like this:
"Wow, you are smiling a lot lately," my girlfriend said. "Is it because you're getting laid regularly again?"
We both laughed. I said, "That's definitely one of the reasons."
"Why else?" my girlfriend asked.
"My job's going great."
"OK," my girlfriend said. "And why else?"
"My husband obeys me."
We looked at each other and burst out laughing.
Then she said, "Damn. Good for you. Good for pussy power."
I smiled. I was too shy to say, "And for paddle power."
I have a friend who is an FLR blogger, and she has conveyed to me some of the conversations she's had with friends about their marriages. It's convinced me that women of your generation are far more open about these power dynamics than is true of mine, even though I don't see myself as all that old.
DeleteDan and others,
DeleteConsider the apparently large number of males who respond to firm loving authority, often so well that they and their relationship can be transformed when those needs are filled. Then consider also that these males often can’t find what they seek often to the detriment of both them and any relationship they are in. Then contrast that with the increasing number of younger ( and not so much younger ) women who are rebelling against the worst vestiges of patrimony and traditional power relationships even as they continue to surpass all previous generations in educational and professional as well as intellectual and financial achievement. Add to that the still small but apparently growing number of women who are discovering male discipline through blogs like this one, social media, and the internet in general. (Some of the male discipline involves spanking, some not, but all of it is radically changing the traditional balance of power between the sexes.). As exemplars, I single out several women who are currently contributing to this site like, Belle, Carol H, Danielle, Liz and Miss Cecilia, as well as many others who have enriched the discussion in the past. They are both proto types and pioneers for a future that may be arriving faster than anyone realizes. It is , for example, difficult to follow the evolution in thinking that Belle has experienced and not realize that her insights are likely to be emulated over and over as more women discover what has really been one of the least well understood secrets of contemporary times, i.e. many virile, otherwise alpha, interesting, accomplished and loving males thrive under female control and discipline and their relationships thrive when they get it. In addition many couples who establish ongoing DD relationships enjoy committed, intimate and fulfilling relationships that absent DD would not happen. I certainly don’t know where all this goes and given the severe cultural polarization extant today, there will be much resistance to any world where women have some or a lot of disciplinary control. But it will happen, in fact it is happening and we are getting a ring side seat to it all
Alan
Alan,
DeleteI don't know if my "insights are likely to be emulated over and over,' but I appreciate the compliment. And I find your idea fascinating that "many virile, otherwise alpha, interesting, accomplished and loving males thrive under female control and discipline and their relationships thrive when they get it." That certainly seems to be true of Jimmy and me. I'm going to watch out for it in other couples we know. Maybe what used to be considered "hen-pecked" or "pussy-whipped" has transformed into "loving female authority"! For sure the world would be a better and happier place if more husbands listened to their wives. And not just because we cause trouble when they don't. I know this sounds sexist, but at least among the couples I know the wife seems to have better judgment than the husband. I can't tell you how many girlfriends I have whose husbands want to spend most of the family money on their toys. Some of them would rather play video and online games than have sex with their wife! And many of us aren't going to put up with that any more!
Alan, Belle
DeleteI appreciate the compliment too. It seems against the norm to me sometimes, but my husband improved so much over the years from occasional discipline mixed with some kink in a FLR/DD marriage that it seems to be a fetish with positive benefits for him. I'm sure it wouldn't work for everyone. I know he wanted to improve and I see positive changes in him. We are also having intimate fun along the way. Obviously I'm doing some things to keep him in a submissive mood, but that's where he wants to be when his workday ends. No relationship is perfect though. If everything was perfect maybe there wouldn't be a need for much in the way of "loving female authority". As far as judgement, my husband admitted I make far better decisions on the home front that he does. But, he's been successful in his job and in making good friends and forming good career relationships. Obviously he's perfectly capable of making good decisions (even if he has panties and a bra under his clothes personally selected by me). He also makes me the best French Toast or omelettes breakfasts on the weekends when he normally cooks ;-), and brings me fresh coffee every day in bed. I always tell him he's trapped now with no way out and he eats this stuff up. I do agree that times are now more open for female authority.
Carol H.
Belle, this type of lifestyle is effective in changing these patterns for more than one reason!
DeleteBelle,
DeleteThe way you described your conversation with your friend is basically how I can see the conversation if/when my wife ever tells anyone, though she is just as likely to go ahead and include the spanking part if that conversation every happens.
And Dan - "It's convinced me that women of your generation are far more open about these power dynamics than is true of mine, even though I don't see myself as all that old." - Totally agree. There has been a sea change when it comes to female empowerment, and I think that it is far from over. And of course I totally relate to the "I don't see myself as all that old" part! Unfortunately, the numbers don't lie!
Carol, I like the way that you clearly see the kinky side of DD, and aren't afraid to use that to full benefit.
-ZM
ZM,
Delete"I like the way that you clearly see the kinky side of DD, and aren't afraid to use that to full benefit."
Thanks. I've also been encouraged by hubby along the way. He "suggested" a few kinky things though I've surprised him with some ideas of my own. Kink might not work for everyone, but it seems to have fulfilled some of his interests and has kept us going like a couple of naughty young people. Actually, I was thinking just now that when hubby's camping trip is scheduled I might be a little mean and offer him a week of naughty activities if he passes on the trip and stays home with me. Naturally, he'll be at my mercy and it's really a no win situation for him ;-)
Carol H.
For me, there was a sense of safety involved knowing that she had control of the disciplinary situation. Of course the whole arrangement began with my desire for it. And it was ultimately hugely generous on her part.
ReplyDeleteWhat I mean is that her being the authority figure bestowed upon me feelings of being watched, protected, cared for, and therefore safe in the way I must have felt when I was a young innocent child.
And it's not about regression or anything like that. It's just having the extraordinary gift of experiencing the freedom of not being responsible for a little while. And overall it resulted in the deepest intimacy I have ever known.
"It's just having the extraordinary gift of experiencing the freedom of not being responsible for a little while." I totally get this. I used to think that this desire for giving up some control was the major component of my desire for DD and that it was closely tied to the level of control I have to impose in my work life. Over time, I've come to think it is more than that and that I have a pretty deep-seated need for accountability and boundaries, but I do think that desire for a respite from being the one in control still is a pretty substantial factor for me.
DeleteTomy, beautifully said. I hope that someday you will be able to experience this same kind of intimacy again.
Delete-ZM
Wow, Tomy, that is so beautiful. May we all aspire to that level of intimacy, regardless of how we get there.
DeleteBelle
Belle,
DeleteThat's exactly it for me. Love and all the good stuff that goes with it is what matters. I couldn't care less how people get to it. It's what the world needs to heal and be whole.
ZM,
I'm fortunate to have good friends and even other people I connect with in meaningful ways. I have no intention of trying to replicate the beautiful experience I had with her.
I'm contributing to the betterment of other people's lives these days and it's very satisfying. I'm basically optimistic about the future and open to it taking whatever shape it does.
Danielle and Dan,
ReplyDelete"What is the mysterious power I have to “coerce” my husband to do as he's told, though it may make him grind his teeth? Maybe it is his sense of honor. We have agreed formally to FLR, so he is honor-bound to obey me, even though he may not want to. I have sometimes punished Wayne by taking away TV privileges."
I punish my husband for serious things using a cane, though I sometimes use one lightly when discipline is more maintenance. I also think it has to do with honor with him, because he asked for a FLR many times. When I agreed I warned him that I expect him to do his part. Much of that is what I want or decide. In a few ways he's gotten more than he expected because I have some kinks of my own. All I'll say is, "poor hubby" although he loves it. He does try not to disappointment me.
Removing some privileges works because spanking isn't something that should be the 'go to' form of discipline. I read about a woman that disciplines her husband my suspending privileges like sitting on furniture in their living room. I've done it to my husband a few times, but allowed it for an afternoon when one of our kids was visiting during a punishment period. As soon as he left, hubby could only use the floor. A big guy sitting on the floor in pink panties is an interesting sight. He was seriously complaining not long ago and I told him if he continued he could kiss his camping trip with his friends goodbye. Complaining ended and foot worship started. I also like the feeling of being the one who can easily coerce my husband. A friend is moving and I'm seriously considering volunteering him to help her set up from the move since she is alone. He pretty well understands just how far he can go. Actually, we have fun with it since we both have what we want in our relationship.
Have a great weekend.
Carol H.
Carol, it sounds like you and your husband have lots of fun. That’s great.
DeleteLike you I like to use non-spanking punishments too. I have never done the one of not allowing him to sit on the furniture. I usually try to make the punishment fit the crime. Take the removal of TV privileges, for example. When I was working, I had a rule that Wayne had to come to bed when I did, so he wouldn’t wake me up. On the occasion in question, I think I gave him permission to stay up for an extra hour to watch something on TV. But he came to bed much later and woke me up. I was angry because I had to work in the morning and I couldn’t get back to sleep. That’s why I took away TV privileges.
Danielle
Carol and Danielle, I agree the non-spanking punishments can be just as effective, if not more so. Particularly loss of the privilege to do some activity that you really wanted to do.
DeleteI have girlfriends who have taken their husband's Xbox, Playstation or whatever video game equipment away until they did something the wife has been asking them to do. It's effective, but it also causes an argument. I would say there is a power struggle going on in most of the couples I know. As there was in mine before I broke up with him for three years. Now that we are back together and I have some authority, we hardly ever fight. I let him make lots of decisions about the things I don't really care about. He took me car-shopping for me, for instance, and he had already picked out several for me to test drive and then recommended a particular one. He did it lovingly and I accepted lovingly (they all were about the same anyway, and he got the colors right.)
DeleteThe things I do care about? We all know what can happen to "convince" him, so we don't argue for long.
I refused to participate in my wife's car buying, on the theory that picking it out and negotiating it herself would be a growth experience. I think even she admits, I was right. And, she drove a hell of a lot harder bargain than I ever have.
DeleteWhile I think equality is a great goal, I think it also seldom really happens. And, I'm just not sure that truly equal relationships work all that well. As I've talked about, I had one such equal relationship at work that led to huge fireworks whenever we disagreed. So, I guess it could work if you had too people who were equally accommodating, but it sure didn't work well with two people who were equally empowered and equally convinced their own view was right
I agree that non-spanking punishments can be very effective, though my wife really hasn't used them much, though she has used other physical punishments that aren't necessarily spanking. Some ideas she finds very amusing, like sending me to bed early (since I usually stay up very, very late), so undoubtedly sometime she will actually do it. But I think that mostly, she is more likely to use non-spanking punishments in conjunction with spanking, to amplify the effect.
Delete-ZM
Great article and comments here.
ReplyDeleteCoercion definition, the act of coercing; use of force or intimidation to obtain compliance.
In the context of fetish, kink, or the compulsions that drive us, I think we need to look more carefully, or maybe more broadly or narrowly as needed, at definitions, be aware of paradox involved, that words aren’t always to be taken literally or have the exact traditional associations. The whole idea of seeking out, setting up and accepting punishment as personal fulfillment of some kind will always present a challenge to meet the traditional idea of what “punishment” means.
Using force is what a wife can do, if by force we mean drive or urge us to do something. Force is what she has if she uses her power as a human and woman to attract, seduce, manipulate, threaten, impress or convince. Do as she asks or desires in order to please her, because of her insistent and peremptory request, made as if by right. Her power is the capacity and ability to direct or influence my behavior. It’s a right or authority that is granted to her by me. She wants that authority and uses it as a force. Intimidating is a word to describe her of being outspoken and strong willed. Bending to that will is, of course, consensual but, in the moment, it’s a coercive force and intimidating. In the end, though, her discipline has to be compatible with my life or it won’t work.
Belle wrote this in an earlier thread here: “If I felt I were coercing him, like threatening to tell his parents or something like that if he didn't accept punishment, I definitely wouldn't be as turned on. It's my authority and his obedience to my authority.”
Threatening to tell my parents or other manipulation works well for me as a fantasy. If I deserve to be punished, I can even rationalize that this coercion is for my benefit. She must use whatever means necessary because that’s just how much she cares. However, a threat that feels too much like blackmail and is unfair isn’t what I would want in an actual relationship. It’s not an authority to be respected. When I refer to coercion, I’m talking about being compelled by a truly attractive force, or there is a threat that something important could be lost if I don’t respect and obey that benevolent force. That’s the feeling with a parent or spouse who cares about you and is worthy of respect. They don’t need to threaten with anything more than that they will be displeased or disappointed if I don’t submit to their authority and to what I deserve in their good judgment.
Danielle here:
DeleteBrett wrote: >>>When I refer to coercion, I’m talking about being compelled by a truly attractive force, or there is a threat that something important could be lost if I don’t respect and obey that benevolent force. That’s the feeling with a parent or spouse who cares about you and is worthy of respect. They don’t need to threaten with anything more than that they will be displeased or disappointed if I don’t submit to their authority and to what I deserve in their good judgment.<<<
Yes, Brett, that’s it! What an insightful commentary! That explains why my husband has always acted as though he fears my spanking threats, even though I apparently wasn't spanking hard enough until recently to inspire fear. It must have been my displeasure he feared, not my hairbrush. I must say, I like that idea! THAT makes me feel sexy!
This is an area in which I think Brett and I differ about what drives our DD interest. The accountability and boundaries that drive my craving doesn't hinge on the person doing it being benevolent or worthy of respect. That's actually what I found so stimulating about KD's "Pride" story that we talked about last week. His wife's friend isn't benevolent, and if she's worthy of respect for some particular reason, that's not really spelled out in the story. So, I find her being the one who serves the purpose of imposing boundaries on him and putting him in his place especially compelling.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteI fixed a typo ...
DeleteSo fascinating for me to hear about these issues from the guy's side of the paddle. For me, as I have repeatedly stated, it is all about respect. If the paddle didn't improve my husband's respect for me, I wouldn't be swinging it. So for Dan to talk about a fantasy of being punished by someone he doesn't respect, and finding that compelling, is really foreign to me. But I guess it fits with the idea of being coerced or "forced" into punishment.
Jimmy is very shy about talking about his feelings and motivations regarding DD, and I am not going to push him to explore all that. Things are going so well as it is. I think he is more embarrassed talking about it than actually taking the punishment! So it is fascinating to hear about motivations from all of you spanked husbands. It gives me a bit of insight into what might be going on inside Jimmy's head.
The few times we have been out in public since our DD started, Jimmy has been much more attentive to me. He fills my wine glass, he opens doors, he asks me if I need anything. From one perspective this could be seen as submissive behavior and the beginning of an FLR. But from my perspective, I see him acting like a gentleman should, like a respectful husband should. And from his perspective, and I asked him about this, he sees himself as being my "protector." He's a macho guy protecting and providing for his wife (who is in need of being protected and provided for, in his eyes). So three different ways of looking at the exact same behavior, with the three of them being at different points on the husband-wife power continuum. If it's an FLR, I have more power. If it's a macho husband protecting the "little woman," he has more power. If he's acting like a gentleman, that is somewhere in the middle on the power continuum. And it doesn't really matter if he thinks about it one way and I think about it another, as long as it is the behavior we agree to! I find this beyond fascinating.
Belle
"He fills my wine glass, he opens doors, he asks me if I need anything." Funny how these things used to be the norm, or at least what "gentlemen" aspired to do.
DeleteYes, I guess that was the norm, maybe for my grandparents. I don't think it has been for quite a while. I think the women's movement killed some of it, and the movement to crass behavior in general took care of some more.
DeleteMost of my girlfriends don't care much about that stuff, and many of them don't even want it because they aspire to the image of independence and equal treatment. But they do care about their husbands helping out around the house and treating them with respect and complain bitterly about both. I like Jimmy acting like a gentleman, but I didn't ask him to start doing any of those things I listed. He started opening doors and such on his own. But I am very certain it's a direct result of my new authority over him. I keep "talking" to him (haha) about being a gentleman and treating me respectfully. If he wants to add a bunch of stuff I never even asked for, that's fine by me. It's a positive side product of the respect I and my bath brush are demanding.
Belle
Dan wrote: “His wife's friend isn't benevolent, and if she's worthy of respect for some particular reason, that's not really spelled out in the story. So, I find her being the one who serves the purpose of imposing boundaries on him and putting him in his place especially compelling.”
DeleteI’ve noted these different interests and desires in the fiction I’ve read over the years. I’m not a purest, but I definitely lean strongly in one direction. On one side of a spectrum, we have attraction to righteous disciplinarians who punish fairly and with much concern for their charge. On the other we have attraction to cruel or self-serving disciplinarians and being the helpless victim trapped in an undeserving position. The conclusion I came to long ago is that spanking is not one thing, and it can satisfy a variety of situations or desires. For me, discipline doesn’t make the right kind of sense without the respect and nurturing aspects. Within the range of possibilities, I’m attracted to the tension between what is a benevolent act, and one that is designed to cause real physical and emotional pain.
Brett, I too am somewhere between those points on the spectrum. I'm definitely not attracted to scenarios involving a "helpless victim trapped in an undeserving position." The recipient side of the equation doesn't work well absent the notion of accountability. (Though, like you, I'm not a purist.) What doesn't matter as much to me is that the person doing the discipline is nurturing or benevolent.
DeleteHaven't you all in the past discussed craving maternal discopline? That would be nurturing and benevolent.
DeleteBelle, sort of, but that's not really what I think about with maternal discipline. For me, the key element in maternal discipline is the inevitability, the necessity of complying with that authority. Think strict and stern mother, not June Cleaver.
DeleteI would say I am strict but not so much stern. I act matter-of-fact when I tell him he needs to be punished. Even when I scold, I do it in my regular voice, not yelling or anything. June Cleaver (yes, I know the reference though I have never seen the show) with a bath brush?
DeleteI don't know where Jimmy gets the inevitably of complying with my authority, but he sure seems to have it. I know he is really respectful of his mother, so it surprised me how disrespectful he was to me for all those years. Now he is treating me more like he treats his mom. However, I have no interest in taking his mom's place. I like him as a man, not a boy. Other than obeying me and our DD, I don't want him to act childlike or me to act maternal.
I find it all confusing, but it's working so I am not going to rock the boat by delving into his motivations. But I can get insights here that might help me understand him better and why he is complying so well. Meanwhile, we are getting along better than ever. He's really the typical man now -- well-fed and well-f*cked and he's happy. So I guess he doesn't mind giving on other things, including submitting to my discipline. But that wasn't the case in our first go-round. He wanted to be the boss of everything. So he is learning ...
Speaking of "full voluntary compliance based on mutual agreement," the most amazing thing happened last night. Jimmy and I were talking about a female acquaintance who is quite the bitch, and he called her a c*nt, which is the one word I have banned from his vocabulary. He tried to catch himself, but he did say it. I gave him a look. He got up and left the room. I didn't know what he was doing. He came back with the bath brush in his hand! He has never ever gone and gotten it on his own without me ordering him to do so. I was moved on so many different levels that I couldn't even take it from him when he held it out. Finally, when I overcame the shock, I stood up, took him by his other hand, led him into the bedroom and screwed his brains out without a word from either of us. Nor did he get paddled for the c-word. Obedience has its rewards.
DeleteDanielle here:
DeleteDan wrote: >>>This is an area in which I think Brett and I differ about what drives our DD interest. The accountability and boundaries that drive my craving doesn't hinge on the person doing it being benevolent or worthy of respect. That's actually what I found so stimulating about KD's "Pride" story that we talked about last week. His wife's friend isn't benevolent, and if she's worthy of respect for some particular reason, that's not really spelled out in the story. So, I find her being the one who serves the purpose of imposing boundaries on him and putting him in his place especially compelling.<<<
Dan, I read KD’s story a bit differently. I don’t think it is strictly about DD. I think it is about spanking kink as much as it is about “accountability and boundaries”. The wife decides to strip her husband of the pride that constantly brings him into conflict with her friend. To do that she conspires with the friend to set him up for a test they know he will fail. The wife’s plan succeeds: her husband has been so thoroughly stripped of pride that he will no longer lock horns with her friend. The friend has achieved a goal of her own: being able to gloat, letting her rival know how much pleasure it gives her to establish her position of superiority once and for all by breaking him down in a humiliating way. The wife may have had a simple disciplinary goal of reining in her husband’s pride. To the friend, on the other hand, it isn’t about DD: it is about the pleasure of triumphing over a rival in a power struggle that acquires a sadomasochistic dimension with the spanking. The wife is so pleased with herself that she has to let her husband know how cleverly she and her friend set him up. She may or may not be naive about her friend’s own interest in the set-up. Instead of being upset with the duplicity of the two women, the husband smiles at the end. What is the meaning of the smile? Different interpretations are possible, and KD may step in to say mine is wrong, but I think that smile shows that the husband has won this game at a deeper level because there will henceforth be two women participating in his spanking kink. Sure, he doesn’t much like one of the women who will henceforth be paddling his behind, but that only adds spice to the kink, doesn’t it?
KD, I have read a few of your stories, as you suggested. I don’t usually read spanking stories, but a read some with my husband. I find them psychologically interesting. He says they are hot. He really liked the one about the teenage girl who gets her mother’s boyfriend in trouble so she can listen to him being spanked through the wall. I have a thought about your stories. In the discussions here, people often distinguish between “kinky spankings” and “disciplinary spankings”. What I get from your stories is that kinky versus disciplinary is a false dichotomy, that they can be disciplinary and kinky at the same time. In “Pride”, for example, the wife has a disciplinary goal, but her friend and her husband go deep into kinky territory, and I doubt whether the wife is naive about that. Is that a fair interpretation?
Dan: “For me, the key element in maternal discipline is the inevitability, the necessity of complying with that authority. Think strict and stern mother, not June Cleaver.”
DeleteIt’s been awhile since I’ve seen the show, but I remember being very attracted to that character because of her responsible nurturing maternal nature. I think all TV moms back then fit that description. I’m sure I must have fantasized about her as a disciplinarian, but it would have been a stretch beyond her persona for her to be the kind of maternal figure I wanted to imagine. Belle’s “June Cleaver with a bath brush” would be the fantasy, but then that would have turned her into a different character. Even my own mother, though she spanked, was not the model for the strict DD wife I want. Having to comply with that maternal authority is a key element for me too. Other elements are that she disciplines fairly and that, unlike a mother and child, we’re engaging in an activity that satisfies adult needs and desires. The scenario is really centered around the fact that I’m not a child, I’m being treated like one because of my behavior.
Danielle wrote: “That explains why my husband has always acted as though he fears my spanking threats, even though I apparently wasn't spanking hard enough until recently to inspire fear. It must have been my displeasure he feared, not my hairbrush.”
The way I see it, both fears are what make discipline the powerful dynamic it can be. I fear the hairbrush, but what compels me to obedience is the greater fear of her displeasure or disappointment should I resist her fair decision to spank. It’s also a fear of breaking the bond we have that recognizes her authority. How can DD survive if the one who should be obedient is making the decision based on however they feel in that moment? To me it would even work if she wasn’t spanking “hard enough” as I imagine she should, as long as I believe whatever she administers is her genuine expression. The fear that will always be present is being put in the shameful and embarrassing, humbling, or humiliating position of having to be punished in this manner and, unlike a June Cleaver, she should not hold back in explicitly exposing that shame. Even a light spanking is punishment in my mind, and with the painful feelings that I’ve displeased her.
Yesterday, I had a hard time coming up with the right non-June Cleaver archetype for the strict mother that is more compelling to my own DD fixation. Today, it suddenly occurred to me, and it's a no-brainer: Bree Van de Camp on Desperate Housewives. Coincidentally (or maybe not), that series started about the same time we first started exploring DD.
DeleteDanielle: There are all kinds of stories there. Discipline CAN certainly be kinky as well. And they can be separate. Or for one and not the other. Or before and after but not during. And the discipline can be serious but the story about it can be intentionally kinky/erotic. It all depends on the story, situation, people involved, person reading, and all sorts of things. (Did Mark Twain write his switching scene in "Tom Sawyer" to turn spanko kids on? Even though it routinely did?)
DeleteAs for "Pride" there is certainly a lot going on besides the straightforward narrative. And yes there is a change in the male character at the end. And 'yes', where once he dreaded the friend, he now sees her as another person to have fun with. She certainly doesn't seem as interested in real discipline as much as using power to inflict pain....way more BDSM than DD. Does that help?
Also, don't forget that the friend asks to speak to the guy privately. That is a definite sign that what is being said is not intended for the wife to hear. Would the wife feel the same had she heard her friend's conversation? Maybe, maybe not.
DeleteYes, KD, that is helpful. Thank you. My husband and I had a discussion about your intention in writing the stories. He is convinced that you are consciously writing “spanking erotica” to serve as erotic stimulation for people with a spanking fetish. People like him. I pointed out that in some of the stories there is nothing explicitly kinky or sexual about the spankings. He believes that making the spankings seem non-erotic is an intentional device to heighten the erotic impact. I think he would have a sexual response to any spanking story, whatever the intention of the writer, like for example your Mark Twain example.
DeleteMy initial interpretation of the story "Pride" was that the friend asking to speak to the husband privately was part of the plan she and the wife concocted together. I guess I have a devious mind.
Danielle
I think if you interpret the smile at the end in the way suggested above, it ruins the set-up. How exactly has he been humbled if, at the end, he is smiling because he wants this and now has two women serving his spanking kink? That interpretation would preclude him having his pride checked, because it would mean in the end he wins. Honestly, my view was it injected a veneer of consent at the end that wasn't entirely consistent with the rest of the story.
DeleteDan, as I read the story, and as I understand all KD’s comments about consent, there is more than a veneer of consent. The husband could have withdrawn his consent at every point in the story. He could have refused to be spanked by his wife for arguing with her friend. At the end of the story, we find out that the wife didn’t have a moral high ground because she plotted with her friend to goad him into a fight. That’s entrapment, right? If the husband had said “This isn’t fair,” he would have been right. But he willingly accepts punishment, and he doesn't feel unfairly treated when he finds out afterwards that he has been duped. He could have withdrawn his consent at every subsequent point: going to apologize to the friend in person; being spanked in front of the friend; being spanked by the friend after she taunted him that she was going to enjoy breaking him down and stripping him permanently of equal status. But not only does he not withdraw consent, he doesn’t even put up a fight. After that private conversation with the friend, he could have said to his wife, “This is bullshit! I’m not letting her spank me. I‘ll tell you why on the way home.” He would have been within his right to do so, wouldn't he? But he willingly submits to humiliation at the hands of his "enemy". My reading of the smile at the end is that it shows that he appreciates the cleverness of the trick the two women played on him and that he doesn’t mind at all that his wife may let her friend spank him in the future. I see the story as an elaborate BDSM game in which the husband has been cast as the loser. But the husband's smile shows that, on a deeper level, there are no losers because they have all derived some sort of satisfaction from the game. Or maybe the smile shows that the husband is in a sort of dreamy “subspace” after such severe “punishment”. But that comes to the same thing, doesn’t it?
DeleteDanielle
Danielle: You wrote: "He is convinced that you are consciously writing “spanking erotica” to serve as erotic stimulation for people with a spanking fetish."
DeleteHe'd be right with regard to most of them, but not all. If you like my writing and don't find it painful or cringeworthy to read, please try:
"Montage", "C5", and (this one is long) "Becket Revisited". (evil grin)
I also do "coming of age" stories. They are neither dark nor erotic, at least not strongly erotic, but more of an exploration of how it feels to be young and confused over this lifestyle. "The Woman of the Well", "Emulating Tom", and "Crushed" are deeply psychological studies of awkward young people with an inclination for spanking. None of those were written for one-handed reading.
I also write some for humor more than titillation: "The Heirloom" "The Top's Mistake", "Three Piggies". And some are just slices of life with kinky people as characters: "A Boy Forever" & "What If?"
I currently have a fleshed-out idea which is currently sitting idly in outline form which deals with spanking......against the backdrop of the Holocaust. When I do finally finish that one, I'll challenge anyone to get off on it. LOL
So while your husband is not wrong. It's not completely correct 100% of the time.
Danielle here:
DeleteKD, I’m not sure whether you will see this, since Dan has moved on to a new topic. I just wanted to say that I have been reading some of your stories together with my husband, and we have been having some interesting conversations about them.
We both liked “Montage”. The juxtapositions in the story—well, not really a story—are thought provoking. It really brings out the different significance spanking can have for different people in different contexts, like the way a young woman gets sexual pleasure from a scenario that is almost identical to a case of real life abuse happening to another young woman elsewhere at that moment. That was a powerful and disturbing juxtaposition.
C5 is well written, but really creepy, which is obviously the intention. Wayne said it made him uncomfortable to have spanking kink given an “Edgar Allen Poe treatment.”
My husband finds your coming of age stories erotic, even though, as I pointed out to him, they are not explicitly sexual. He thought “Crushed” was “hot”. Go figure.
I have enjoyed talking to you and other people about your stories because it is interesting to compare interpretations in the presence of the person writing the stories. I think it could be kind of fun if Dan dedicated a blog discussion some week to a reading of one of your stories to initiate a discussion about the different ways people here interpret, and feel about, a realistic fictional portrayal of DD. I think that could bring out the different ways people here think and feel about spanking as discipline and spanking as kink.
I would have reservations about your plan to write a spanking story with the Holocaust as a backdrop. Yikes! That seems way too dark to me.
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ReplyDeleteMy opinion on consent in a relationship is that, much like marriage, you consent (take your vows) once, and other than things that are negotiated, the consent stays.
ReplyDeleteYou agree that discipline is necessary, and I agree, and when I feel that an action calls for discipline, I tell you, and you present yourself. You willingly agreed to accept my discipline, so now you are obligated to take it, whether you agree with me or not. Understand that there is no possible way I can use a paddle, my hand, or other implements without your cooperation.
Should you happen to have a "problem" with my reasoning for discipline, we can discuss it after you have taken the discipline. And, IF I am wrong, I will apologize, and we will figure out how to handle it in the future. Also, if you want to renegotiate on aspects of our agreement, we will do so. It doesn't mean you will get all the conditions you want, but you will be heard.
I have renegotiated with Shilo many times in the past, and there have been times when I apologized. I feel a good leader accepts responsibility and apologizes when needed.
DeleteMerry,
DeleteI have not made a statement to Jimmy like yours above, and so far he has accepted all of my punishments. But if he does decide to give me static, I am going to remember this quote, which I think is excellent:
"You agree that discipline is necessary, and I agree, and when I feel that an action calls for discipline, I tell you, and you present yourself. You willingly agreed to accept my discipline, so now you are obligated to take it, whether you agree with me or not. Understand that there is no possible way I can use a paddle, my hand, or other implements without your cooperation."
Is the above quote (assuming the husband agrees) an example of consensual con-consent? Or is it compliance? Persuasion? Or what is it on the continuum?
DeleteI kind of like that marriage analogy
DeleteMerry, that is very well explained. That's how I see it too.
DeleteDanielle
That wouldn't work for me at all.
DeleteI agree with this wholeheartedly. That’s what I lack in my marriage. This is where it takes a special kind of wife, who lays down the law just like this. I don’t have to explain to her how this authority she has been given is real. She assures me that it is real, and explains to me how and why it works. Of course, I know and agree, but this is how I use the word coercion in this context. It is her will, or she wouldn’t feel any need to explain and to insist on these conditions.
DeleteHi Belle!
DeleteI would say CNC. But again, we have renegotiated things in the past, and we always discuss our feelings afterwards.
Hello Brett!
DeleteI can't possibly "coerce" Shilo into anything. After all, he's much bigger and stronger than me.
Hi Merry :)
DeleteI think that’s the crux of this thread. What is coercion? We know it’s not physical coercion. Even if you were bigger and stronger than your husband, and he genuinely resisted, would you overpower him physically in order to spank him? It’s all consensual. What creates the feeling of coercion is that you will hold him to his consent, and that you make the rules explicitly clear. You don’t say what the consequences will be if he backs out of his consent, but you state that it’s not acceptable in the moment. Only after you have wielded your power, should it be possible for an admission that you were wrong, or that the agreement can be renegotiated. If I was living under those conditions, I would feel coercion, but that’s an acceptable element of being disciplined by someone other than myself.
Belle and Merry,
ReplyDeleteI don’t know where Merry’s practice lies on the continuum- but I do know the system she describes works very well. A wife’s authority is not to be questioned BEFORE punishment. But when it’s over (which for us is marked by her permission to pull up my pants) I am free to object or argue as much as I want. There have been times she has admitted she was hasty or misunderstood, but more often all the reasons I had why I shouldn’t be spanked, magically dissipate when it is over. My former girlfriend who introduced me to DD would become absolutely livid if she thought I was challenging her authority and so she and I worked this system out - which might be called “spank first and ask questions later”. My wife and I have used it from the beginning and I think it has been one of the best DD practices we have adopted. It does away with all the pre-spanking whining and rationalizing while allowing room for real openness and honest communication
Alan
Then of course there's "spank first....resent eventually.... and divorce later."
DeleteAlan and KD, I think those are all good points. Partners must be compatible and acting in good faith. If there’s real resentment, then I don’t see how a marriage can last. If a husband can accept that his wife is capable of mistakes, but still trusts her, then it can work. If that trust is broken, though, it better get fixed.
Delete"Spank first and discuss later" is also nice because it takes pressure off the wife to make stressful judgment calls when rules are the more objective and measurable kind, or there's a regular catch-all spanking session.
DeleteThat said, while that's an excellent discipline method or game to mutually agree to, I simply cannot see how either partner can have irrevocable consent demanded of them because of one statement in the past. I can see one partner having enough leverage to successfully demand it, whether by withholding sex or by exploiting personality weaknesses, but that's not what we're about here.
Interesting discussion, for sure!
@KD: This is why we talk afterwards. I always listen to calm reasoning, and I accept my errors, and apologize. I KNOW I'm not perfect.
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DeleteFixing another typo, grrr ...
DeleteKD has said before that he only accepts punishment if he believes it is fair. Merry is saying the husband should accept punishment whether he thinks it is fair or not. I think I am somewhere in the middle. If Jimmy really thought I had it all wrong and he had nothing to be punished for, I would be fine with him objecting prior to the punishment. But I think that is unlikely to happen because we mostly deal with factual misbehavior that I present to him as a question to which the only answer is yes: "Is your underwear on the bathroom floor? Did you just say the c word? Did you call me a bitch? Did you just say that women can't ever make up their minds? Did you say that ugly women have no purpose in life? Did you promise to fix that squeaky door a week ago? Did you promise to put air in my tires and then didn't do it?" (All of these are real examples)
I am in the middle on this one too. In general, I agree with Merry's method and think that is the way that it should be for my wife and I (and generally is). However, I also agree somewhat with KD's idea that it needs to be fair. I guess for me the way it ends up is if my wife is spanking me for a reason (so DD) then it needs to be generally fair, though I know that occasionally she is going to make mistakes, and I need to give her some benefit of the doubt. On the other hand, if she decides to spank me just because she can (like to remind me of her authority) that is also OK, as long as she doesn't make up a bunch of fake reasons.
DeleteNo matter what, I can't see us ever having any real resentment, because in the end it is still consensual on some level. But I have never had any bad experiences like it seems that KD did, so probably if I had walked in his shoes I would feel the same way.
-ZM
It occurs to me that this topic might lend itself to discussion of physical restraints. I know this flirts dangerously with BDSM. But for the moment, I'm thinking about it as simply a tool to enable a wife to more conveniently deliver discipline.
ReplyDeleteWe had some friends, definitely a DWC couple, who used it regularly. He said there was a surrender in it he needed and on her part, she had some physical limitations which using that method solved completely. Anyway, Dan, you were looking for a new topic.
I wouldn't use restraints. The voluntary compliance is a big part of our DD for me. He obeys me. He obediently gets in position when I tell him to. He obediently stays in position until I am done spanking him. I don't want to use any kind of force. It's not consensual DD, then, at least not to me, even if he agreed to be restrained. Why does he need to be restrained if he is demonstrating his voluntary compliance?
DeleteFor me it's all about having a big, buff, macho man who could toss me aside like a twig obey me and take the punishments I dish out without objection or resentment. Then I feel so empowered, which was what was wrong with our marriage. If I had another way to feel so powerful, I might use that instead of spanking. But I can't think of one, and I am so glad he suggested DD to me.
Belle,
DeleteAgree with you strongly on restraints. They defeat the "cheerful obedience" my wife asks for and the voluntary acceptance of her discipline. But we have used the famous "leg-lock" position ( actually pretty often) which make me feel very under control without actually being restrained in any way.
Alan
We don't use restraints, but I am not sure that I am opposed to them. Unlike Belle and Alan, I think that even if he agrees to be restrained, it is still consensual. I can "cheerfully obey" by voluntarily getting into position as she ties me down. And it doesn't preclude some sort of safeword or other indicator that he is in real distress (like maybe a back problem or breathing problem or something unrelated to the direct results of the spanking). But what restraints WOULD do is:
Delete- stop or limit involuntary movement, since even if he is voluntarily complying, he may not be able to keep himself from moving
- possibly reduce the chances of injury from ill-timed movement resulting in an impact in the wrong place
- possibly help him to feel truly like he is unable to move, so perhaps that would also help with surrendering to the punishment, bringing greater emotional release?
Anyway, I have no real experience with just, but am just saying that in concept I am not all that opposed to the thought of it.
-ZM
ZM,
DeleteYou make some good points and I would never argue they might not work (restraints) for others- they just don't work for us. There was a time (with a former girlfriend) where they might have helped to get through a couple of early intense spankings. I actually stopped a couple of these (BLUSH) until I finally realized what I was doing and the harm it was doing to her confidence). During that time I did discuss restraints with her but voluntary compliance is what she wanted and after I got through those first few spankings I thought I "couldn't endure", restraints never became an issue. It would be interesting as Tomy has suggested to discuss this as a topic.
Alan
What's a leg-lock?
DeleteJimmy is obedient but he isn't cheerful about it. He's nervous. I think I will talk to him about "cheerful obedience." After all, I'm quite cheerful when he is doing his dominant thing in the bedroom!
Delete"What's a leg-lock?"
DeleteThe disciplinarian hooks a leg ( usually right if right handed)over the culprits upper hamstrings just below the glutes, probably also holding his right arm firmly behind waist, largely immobilizing the lower body and positioning the bottom for easy access for the strap or brush
Alan
I feel that restraining is absolutely ridiculous when it comes to me disciplining Shilo or anybody else for that matter. I want a willing participant.
DeleteWow, you guys just blow my mind with the whole idea that restraints somehow make the whole thing less consensual, especially considering that you also seem to have no problem with the idea of consensual non-consent, where consent is given once and covers all the times that maybe he doesn't really want to be spanked. How is it any different that me consensually presenting myself to be restrained, and then it is all kind of out of my hands? Especially since I assume we are doing all this in the context of a loving relationship between people who fully trust each other.
DeleteMerry, as far as your "I want a willing participant," I am certainly willing, or I wouldn't have asked my wife to do this. But my willingness doesn't mean that I am necessarily able to stay in place perfectly and not have involuntary movement.
-ZM
I am more or less agnostic on restraints. We tried them a few times, instigated by me on the premise that even if I was consent to the spanking as a whole, the restraints might make me feel more vulnerable and out of power in the moment, thereby allowing me to really "surrender" at a deeper level. It didn't really work, and we haven't gone back to using them.
DeleteActually, I am pretty much that way too. We have tried them once or twice, to little effect. I just struggle with the logic of people believing that somehow restraints automatically make the spanking less consensual or voluntary. I am not saying that restraints can't do that, of course, but just that it doesn't have to be that way in my opinion.
Delete-ZM
Agreed. The logic doesn't hang together very well, does it? I've also never quite understood the thinking that a truly hard spanking could/should be taken with some sort of unmoving stoic reserve.
DeleteI also agree that consensual restraints are no less consensual than any other submission. And also some people are into bondage like I’m into spanking. That’s simple logic, but the emotional part is just as real, so if restraints make it feel wrong for whatever reason, then don’t use them.
DeleteI find the idea of restraint somewhat erotic. My wife enjoys some light bondage, and that was her idea not mine. With DD, I don’t like the idea myself on multiple levels. Restraint like that would make me too uncomfortable, and it doesn’t fit my vision of traditional domestic discipline. I would be bound by respecting her will and not wanting to destroy her authority. She wouldn’t require stoicism. I never had to be tied down growing up, so if it was required as an adult, the adjustment would have to be in the direction of not needing it.
Our way of doing things is closest to what Belle has described in the various posts in this discussion. I allow my wife to spank me with no compulsion, manipulation or anything like that, because I allow her to do it out of love and chivalry.
ReplyDeleteI haven't thought of Jimmy taking a spanking from me as chivalrous, but now that you mention it, I think it is. He has gotten so much more chivalrous with me in all aspects of our lives. And oh God do I love that ...
DeleteRe the debate between Merry and Kd:
ReplyDeleteI can’t say I have never resented a spanking, but there have been very few after we had talked it out. Agreeing to unlimited disciplinary authority means there will be times you disagree either over the issue addressed by discipline or the severity of the discipline.. But I count the few disagreements we have had as a small cost for the intimacy and trust that comes with the whole package. I don’t believe one can experience the fullness of a DD relationship unless the trust is given. After all if we could discipline ourselves we wouldn’t need someone else to do it. So the notion of having an a priori veto over that discipline makes little sense. Of course if she abused it or me I could and would withdraw that authority as any adult could and should. But over two long DD relationships covering more than two decades I have never regretted either the trust or the commitment to not challenge her authority before a spanking. And as Merry reinforced, the freedom to challenge it after a punishment has been administered has been a powerful safety valve for any conflicts which have come up. Some of the comments above seem to slide over the “talk it out after” part of unlimited authority, but it is very important.
Alan
Hi Dan,
ReplyDeleteNow, since I never really commented on the weekly topic of coercion (except for jumping in on other people's comments).
My wife doesn't really use coercion to get me to submit to a spanking, because even though almost without fail I don't want a spanking when one is imminent, I am fully onboard with us having a DD relationship and I want to make that easier and better for her. So consequently she doesn't need to threaten me to get me to accept a spanking.
One thing that she could do, but hasn't, is she could basically leave it up to me when the spanking happens, but with the threat that the longer I wait, the worse it is going to be. I see things like that as being at least somehow related to coercion.
However, where she very occasionally does use coercion (in the form of threats) is when she wishes to change my behavior and she threatens punishment if I don't immediately change what I am doing. I used the example last week about how my wife could punish me for paying too much attention to my phone and ignoring others. I had not read that comment to her, so I was stunned when on Saturday we were at her family's house and she sent me a test message "Put your phone down, or you will get it tonight." That was a pretty clear threat, and I can assure you that I put my phone away RIGHT NOW and paid attention to people, even though I didn't feel like it. So that was a form of coercion because she used a direct threat to get me to do something that I didn't want to do. I think there is a lot more that she could do with this...
-ZM
"After all if we could discipline ourselves we wouldn’t need someone else to do it."
ReplyDeleteThis is the whole thing, Alan. So many men, at least of my generation, are not good at disciplining themselves. Or they are good in some aspects, like showing up to work on time and going to the gym and keeping their nice car clean, and they know how to practice practice practice at Xbox until they are excellent ... but when it comes to home life and the women in their life they are not disciplined at all. What is that about? The women of my generation are just not going to take it anymore. If he acts like a naughty little boy, he deserves to be treated like one, whether it's spanking or sleeping on the couch or being a bitch or making him earn sex or whatever she can do that works.
I feel I am a pretty disciplined person and I am consistent about it. I don't really get why so many men aren't. Maybe their mommies took care of them too much and spoiled them, and provided them external accountability so they didn't have to develop self-discipline. Now they expect to be spoiled by their wives. Uh, no. But I guess we are willing to provide the external motivation, because we do it all the time. But that shouldn't punish us as well (like denying him sex or getting in a big fight). That is one of the things I like so much about DD. We aren't further apart after I motivate him like we would be if I made him sleep on the couch. We are closer after DD because 1, it's an intimate act, and 2, the problem is quickly over and dealt with, and 3, we are both aroused by it. What other punishment arouses both parties and brings them closer together? (I guess some rewards might, but not punishments).
Somehow, I doubt the underlying behavioral issues are generational. I suspect women have been complaining about their men's immaturity forever, and men have had their own complaints about women. What I think *has* changed over the years is that for my parent's generation, the women's complaints either went unaddressed entirely or were dealt with by pouting, flouncing, the silent treatment, sleeping on the couch, and other passive-aggressive responses. I do think women now feel far more empowered to deal with problems in much more direct ways. Though, I still think the ones doing so with spanking are in a very small minority.
DeleteActually, I take that back. Men have probably always taken longer to grow up than have women, but men of the Millennial generation forward do seem to have particular issues with failure to launch and being more prone to slacker sloth. The stats don't lie -- women are progressing across the board, while young men seem to be struggling like never before. These lines from The Intern paint the picture:
DeleteJules : Here's my theory about this. We all grew up during the "take your daughter to work day" thing, right?
Ben : Mm-Hmm.
Jules : So we were always told we could be anything, do anything. And I think guys got, maybe not left behind, but not quite as nurtured, you know? I mean, like, we were the generation of "you go, girl."We had Oprah. And I wonder sometimes how guys fit in, you know? They still seem to be trying to figure it out. They're still dressing like little boys. They're still playing video games.
Davis : I love video games!
Lewis : Oh, boy.
Jules : How, in one generation, have men gone from guys like Jack Nicholson and Harrison Ford to...
Some of my friends act passive-aggressively, but more of them take the attitude, "If you want to be with me, you better treat me right." Maybe that is what's different, as you say. I can't imagine putting up with immaturity for a lifetime.
DeleteFor me personally, I wasn't passive-aggressive for all those years before our breakup. I was just passive. I wanted to be the little housewife and have raising kids be my career. When I found out I could not have biological children, that changed everything. Suddenly I was dissatisfied with my life. I'm sure it took Jimmy by complete surprise, and he wanted things to stay as they were and tried to impose that on me. Bad mistake. I had gone straight from my parents' house to Jimmy's, and I had to get out on my own and experience life and find a new life purpose. The more independent I became, the more confidence I gained. Then it was a matter of how to reunite with this guy I had always been in love with but was a (lovable) male chauvinist pig. Oh, read Dan's disciplined hubbies web site, get advice from spanked husbands and disciplinary wives, and learn how to spank respect into his soul.
Yea, Harrison Ford. I said earlier that I am not attracted to celebrities, but if Harrison Ford asked me ... um, yes. His combination of strength and calm, that understated macho-ness, well that's all of it for me. Jimmy has the macho, and my bath brush is getting him to understate it. Maybe he will be Harrison Ford someday!
DeleteDan wrote: “Somehow, I doubt the underlying behavioral issues are generational.“ I agree that they are not generational, but they are cumulatively more of a problem with each succeeding generation as women gain economically, politically and socially – while more males fall behind or get lost in the fog of new relationship norms. Historically substantial numbers of men have behaved badly in domestic relationships vis-Ã -vis women. But the rapidly changing role and power of women in society today (most graphically apparent in each new generation) makes that behavior more and more intolerable to increasing numbers of women. The newer generations (as Belle has described) are feeling this ongoing change more acutely as both men and women seek new role norms and the pace of change accelerates. Women more and more have real power and they are going to use it. That doesn’t mean that a generation or two from now the typical household will be female led or involve DD. In reality most male’s social development will eventually catch up with their female peers. But in the interim women are going to continue to seek ways to manage male behavior (in effect to discipline the males in their life) and DD will be one of the many options available to them. I am going to end by quoting a recent post by Belle – who summed it all up well: “… one of the things I like so much about DD (is) we aren't further apart after I motivate him like we would be if I made him sleep on the couch. We are closer after DD because 1, it's an intimate act, and 2, the problem is quickly over and dealt with, and 3, we are both aroused by it. What other punishment arouses both parties and brings them closer together?”
DeleteAlan
Agreed. Parents should raise their sons well to prevent that from happening in the first place, so that women are able to marry mature men, but it is good that women are not putting up with such behaviour and taking action against it. Parental discipline should carry on longer, so that when a man gets married, a DD relationship with his wife is not such a big step up.
DeleteI agree with your underlying principle of not letting the sun go down on your anger. Denying him intimacy and giving him a punishment that drags things on is a surefire way of not keeping that principle. The three reasons you mentioned help explain why nightly spankings before sex are ideal. The issue has been fully dealt with and there is a clean slate afterwards.
I can think of one other punishment, but it is outside the scope of this forum, so message me if you want to hear my views on that.
P.S. Belle, I hope this is not too off-topic, but do your fantasies involve spanking the other people mentioned?
DeleteHi All - I just really have to say that the consistent level of thoughtful and intelligent conversation on this forum is really remarkable - as well as Dan's consistently excellent blog posts. I am impressed every time I find the time to stop by and catch up.
ReplyDeletere: coercion. As Dan mentioned above, in the final analysis, there is always consent at some level - for all the obvious reasons, as has been discussed here many times before. Coercion, though, does have a different nuance, and has made for an interesting discussion. Of course there is always the hypothetical possibility of the threat of divorce, blackmail, the withholding of sex - if the husbands refuses to submit to a spanking. All clearly coercive - all of which are all popular themes in F/M spanking fiction, but perhaps not all too common in actual practice.
But, I suspect that for many husbands there is the inherent coerciveness of knowing that in refusing a spanking he may be endangering the DWC arrangement that he asked for to begin with. And there is the coercion of knowing that a refusal may very likely put he and his wife at odds for some time (which also means that he is not likely to get laid either).
And, for some of us - as has been discussed here before as well - there is what might be thought of a psychological coercion - where we have reached the point as disciplined husband that we have become so conditioned to the inevitability of imposed "maternal" discipline that it becomes very difficult to meaningfully consider the thought of refusing a spanking.
Just a couple of thoughts on this interesting topic.
Also, in regard to the discussion on F/M discipline starting at a younger age and women generally being more receptive to the idea - I would agree that this appears to be the case to me based on what I have observed over twenty years (plus) of following various F/M discussions. While I do not think DWC style marriages will ever be common place, I do think that they are becoming "less unusual", and somewhat even a little less taboo.
I would venture that this is reflective of changing values among young adults in general in regard to all thngs sexual - gender identity (female, male, cis, trans, nonbinary,etc), sexual preference (hetero, gay, bi, pan, sapio, demi, asexual etc), relationship styles (mono, poly, open, RA, CNM, etc). Surveys show substantial increases in all the "alternative" choices over the last few years. Pandora's box is wide open. --al
Very useful thoughts. The only major point where it is different with us is that I would not refrain from refusing because of a fear that the relationship would end. Rather, I love my wife and letting her spank me when she wants is a very intense way of doing it. I want to keep expressing my love for my wife and therefore stick with it regardless.
DeleteHi al. Thanks for the kinds words and, as always, thanks for dropping by. It's always great when you find time.
DeleteIt certainly does seem logical that values are changing and liberalizing and that DD would become less taboo. Though, it's hard for me to compare. I always hear the 70s referenced as the high point of "anything goes" culture, and it's clear from scientific polls and studies that today's youth are having less sex and starting much later.
As one who is a bit older than many of the folks here, I do fondly recall the raging sexual revolution of the late seventies - it was a fun time to be in college. All brought to a halt, of course, by the onset of the AIDS epidemic.
DeleteI think that the difference now is more philosophical - with more and more people self indentifying in ways that are out of the box - and being very comfortable and confidant in doing so. More are identifying as other than heterosexual, more are identifying as consensually non-monogamous.
I don't really recall BDSM (and for this discussion, I will consider spousal disciplinary spanking a subset) being as common as it is now. It was certainly there, but it does seem to be far more common now (with the advent of the public Internet undoubtedly playing a large role in that growth, along with "Shades of Gray" - which for all its flaws - did significantly pique the public interest).
--al
I really do regret missing being old enough in the 70s to really understand what was going on.
DeleteThe 70s were a flowering of the sexual revolution of the 60s. With the new freedom came wild excesses, but it didn’t immediately change stereotypes, bigotry, and gender attitudes about what was good or attractive. There was no support or alternative role models to follow on the Internet. I was young, and I think we guys all wanted to be James Bond. LOL. Women, in general, were not attracted to submissive men and, if anyone was practicing FLR, it was a secret well kept from me.
DeleteIt appears I have missed out on an awful lot by being born during the noughties!
DeleteYeah, a much older and married Harrison Ford takes a drunk, 19 year old Carrie Fischer out to his car to make out and begin an affair which ended his first marriage. More guys should be like that. Know what you want and go for it! Lol
ReplyDeleteFollowing from an earlier comment here and possibly going off-topic, a couple of questions:
ReplyDelete1) Are there many couples who have used DD throughout their marriage (or time when they had carnal knowledge of each other, if earlier)?
2) Are there many younger couples here who do DD? I am a product of the noughties?
I'm friends with one couple that plays a form of regression, she has bed times for him, spankings of course, mouth soapings, enemas... They do this as much as they can and they like to have witnesses/play buddies, like myself. They don't want it to get out so they are careful. But they are both so much into it, i wouldn't consider it coercion, but I do believe from long talks with him, that even if she upped the ante, he would comply. I think it is mainly that they are so much into it, and i think he wouldn't want to do anything that would inhibit her. For my own part when i have played as a "friend" of his, i found myself easily getting into the role and doing what i was told without hesitation.
ReplyDelete