"A submissive
gives up control for freedom. A Dominant
gives up freedom for control.” - Unknown
Hello all. Welcome back to the Disciplinary Couples
Club. Our weekly gathering of men and
women who are in, or would like to be in, Domestic Discipline relationships.
For years I’ve began every
blog post with a line saying, “I hope you had a good week.” Now, week after week it seems like a stretch
wish. We seem to go from one crisis to
another to another. I’m not sure I’ve
ever gone through a period in which I’ve felt less in control, at least in
terms of being able to influence the events in my life through thought or
effort.
Yet, in other ways I’m taking
control like I seldom have before. I’ve
talked before about making a major career transition. Probably not “retirement” per se; I’m still
kind of young for that. But, a very
significant change of pace and direction.
Like many people at this stage of life, I’m looking for ways to spend my
time that are more about personal meaning and service, and less about economic
necessity. I’ve always hoped a time
would come when what I do is more about doing things I like and giving back
than about needing to earn a paycheck, though I’ve found that where retirement
saving is concerned the bar seems to keep moving up. You can always have a little more, right?
Well, I finally decided that
it is all relative and the bar will keep moving up if I don’t
consciously draw a line in the sand, to mix a whole bunch of metaphors. So, I started taking action a couple of weeks
ago to start the process of winding down.
It likely will be more of a process than an event, but it feels good to
get things rolling. It feels good to
take control and move events forward, instead of just drifting along the
established path. I've also hit a point where I'm worried about regrets I'll have later if I stay in the same rut even if it is a pretty lucrative rut.
That feeling of control and
the need to assert it is definitely part of what is driving my need for a
change. I work in a pretty large
organization, which implicitly means not having direct control over many things. Even when decision making is decentralized
and fairly democratic, the decisions are being made by a group and not by
me. There are times I’m 100% sure that I’m
right about organizational or management issue, yet the decision goes the other
way. And, I’m kind of tired of
that. I want something smaller and
simpler, but bound up in that is a burning desire to have a life that is less
subject to decisions I didn’t make.
Now, you see where this is
going, don’t you? A big part of the
attraction of Domestic Discipline for some Type-A personalities like mine is
giving up some level of control and, rather, having rules and consequences
imposed. That desire to give up control
is reflected in my metaphysical pursuits like meditation, mindfulness and Zen.
At the top of this post is a
quote that I came across a few years ago.
In two short sentences, it seemed to sum up for me the trade-offs involved
in Domestic Discipline and, to an even greater extent, FLR. There may (or may not) be some negotiation of
the rules, but once they are set the disciplined husband loses some freedom. His actions are now subject to some painful
consequences that are purposefully designed to change, and thereby limit, the
choices he makes. For the Disciplinary
Wife, there is a corresponding tradeoff.
To the extent she takes her role seriously, it involves taking on
responsibility for disciplining someone when they fail to show
self-discipline. It means being
consistent and diligent and exercising good judgment.
There is an inherent paradox
in the quote above, and it’s the same paradox I come across in metaphysical
pursuits like Zen. Trying to control
everything is exhausting and often pointless, and a sense of freedom emerges
when you stop controlling things and let life go where it will. So, while it may seem paradoxical that giving
up control ultimately gives one a greater sense of freedom, I believe it is
true and potentially a life changing perspective. As I transition to a new phase of life, I’m
seeing more and more of those paradoxes, and sometimes it feels like the
various themes are not only paradoxical in themselves but even contradict each
other. I want to leave myself open to
more of what life might have to offer, so I’m consciously not laying out
a plan for what this next phase will look like.
Yet, moving out of my current career is very much about wanting to
assert more control over my day-to-day activities. Whatever I do, it almost certainly will
involve a big drop in income, so frugality becomes a concern in a way it hasn’t
been in the past. Yet, as I said in an
exchange with KD last week, there seems to be a certain sense of freedom in
denying myself some material things.
With all that said, I still
have a hard time articulating how it is that there is a sense of freedom in
handing over control to someone else. And,
it is also true that there are some areas in which yielding control does not
result in an increased sense of freedom. When Anne gave a spanking in anger
a couple of weeks ago, being reined in and told how she expects me to treat her
felt very powerful and right. Yet, there
have been a couple of instances lately where she tried to exercise control over
personal behavior issues that did not really affect her and I found
myself not particularly caring what she thought. Things like whether I had two beers or three
as I was reading and watching television and she was doing something else. Maybe
it’s about the extent to which a rule or direction seems to be arbitrary
or pointless? I think that may be one
dividing line between men who are into DD and men who are truly
submissive. I get turned on by having
her exercise power over me when it serves some purpose or involves being held
accountable for some real failing. Yet,
I think I would start chafing pretty quickly if her exercises of power seemed
arbitrary or capricious while some men would get very turned on being subject
to such arbitrary control. And, I’m not
wholly consistent in how I react to being subject to rules I don’t actively
consent to; sometimes being subject to discipline that seems “unfair” is a turn-on
and sometimes it’s not.
How does this work in your DD
relationship? Do you, in fact, feel a
certain freedom in giving up some level of control? How far does that extend? Are there some areas where giving in to her
rule setting works and some where it doesn’t?
Conversely, for the wives who assume control, does that give you a sense
of freedom or does it impose a sense of responsibility or burden? Or, is it both at the same time? Is it freeing to make decisions without checking
with him and even more so to impose your own rules or decisions on him? Assuming
that, as the quote indicates, such freedom comes along with a certain exchange
between freedom and control--because you are now taking on additional
responsibility and leadership--is that trade-off something you feel comfortable
with?
I hope you all have a great
week, or as great as possible under the circumstances.
Dan,
ReplyDeleteFor your questions...
"...for the wives who assume control, does that give you a sense of freedom or does it impose a sense of responsibility or burden?"
There is an added level of freedom since I assumed more control. My husband picked up household chores that frees me to do more of the things I enjoy. I work and take care of cooking and baking during the week. I also do all the finances. He enjoys this relationship. He's actually performed most of the chores since the beginning of our marriage because I continued my education and worked. Thus, chores haven't really been dumped on him. I guess you could say they have been 'officially' given to him as duties. More, or perhaps the better word is 'different', responsibility falls on me because I'm in charge and I'm also a caring person. My husband pressed for a DD/FLR style marriage. It is great, but I don't want to abuse him. I don't want to load him up with so many tasks that he becomes unhappy. He's been instructed to speak up if there's any issues. He served me like I was a queen and pleased me in many ways this weekend. We both enjoyed every minute of it.
"Is it freeing to make decisions without checking with him and even more so to impose your own rules or decisions on him?"
Yes. It's good to be boss. My husband is encouraged to speak up and give me his opinion, but he is submissive and will defer to my final decision. This weekend we celebrated our 30th wedding anniversary. One important topic we discussed was his desire to remain submissive to me. He is happy and will continue to view me as the ultimate authority. We will continue and see where it ultimately leads us. Discipline this weekend was light, naughty fun. We arranged for tomorrow off with our employers to enjoy the day.
Have a great week.
CarolH.
Hi Carol. Congratulations on the anniversary! That's a big one. You have two great quotes in the above:
Delete"More, or perhaps the better word is 'different', responsibility falls on me because I'm in charge and I'm also a caring person." That's a great combination in a boss -- in charge and a caring person.
"Yes. It's good to be boss." Probably that simple, isn't it?
Dan,
DeleteThanks so much. I appreciate the nice words. The years pass too quickly.
I'm constantly looking for ways so I can tell my husband is happy as my "submissive husband". It would be so easy to fall into a pattern where I just increase my expectations on him and he jumps to take of whatever I wanted, or gets punished if he fails. He knows one of my expectations, one of my orders (lol), is to let me know if he's overwhelmed or has concerns. If they aren't addressed they fester and become bigger problems. He asked me if I minded if he camped near our home upstate with friends in July. I told him to make his plans. I prefer he goes because he needs breaks, I need need them, and I totally trust him. It seems so odd that one of his close friends is not allowed to go overnight, but has joined the group for day trips. I could easily be the Dominant wife and say, "No." There might even be a part of him that wants me to say it. In time he would become resentful, anybody eventually would. I enjoy so much in the way of freedom and decision making, especially since the first quarter of this year. I don't want to abuse it. While I like it when he says, "You're the boss" and defers to me, I feel real responsibility with being boss.
Thank You again,
CarolH.
CarolH, above has it just right for our relationship too. Although not a marriage, we have a 24/7 FLR which I wanted from the start. The chores I do give her more free time for herself. She is smart enough not to 'overburden' me with tasks and there are some she would rather do herself. As for life's decisions, she has the final say. She does allow and even encourage my input, but the final call is hers and I accept it. Disagreements....there are very few, but all end with an effective bare bottom spanking. Then the slate is clean again. Thank you CarolH for saying it much better than I did.
ReplyDeleteThank you Spanked Cowboy. My marriage started out a little different because my husband seemed to be interested in DD, light in the beginning, almost as foreplay. He got his first serious spanking from me when me got very mouthy to an older relative. She was rather outspoken and we chalked it up to age, but he told her off and she was very hurt. His disciplinary spankings began after that incident. The FLR part was always mild until recently when he really wanted me to be the boss. The FLR part is new at its present intensity. Like you, once a punishment is done the slate is clean. My husband is actually very happy with the direction of our relationship. I'm glad you have found that balance that works for you both.
DeleteCarolH.
So far I have felt a huge sense of relief and a lot of hope that I have a way to make Jimmy respect me. He has gotten where I can see him starting so say something and he catches himself because he knows if he says it he will get the bath brush. That is a sort of freedom for me, I guess, though it feels more like power and authority and of course control. Am I giving up any freedom by spanking him? I don't see how. I don't feel any kind of burden, at least not at this point. He asked me the other day what it would take for us to get back together and I said, "Three months where you never get the bath brush because you always are respecting me and all other women." He nodded and said nothing. Since he gets the brush at least once a week right now, he knows we are a ways off. But I am seeing progress, and I have a lot of hope! Plus, my resentment and frustration is relieved by swinging that brush.
ReplyDeleteBelle
The other day after I tossed down the brush, I said (as he was still bent over the arm of the couch), "I feel much better. Don't you?"
DeleteHe mumbled into the couch, "Not exactly."
I laughed and waltzed off to my room, leaving him to recover on his own (with plenty to think about).
Yes!
Belle
Three months -- that's a pretty significant challenge. Hope he's up to it.
DeleteDanielle here:
ReplyDelete>>>Conversely, for the wives who assume control, does that give you a sense of freedom or does it impose a sense of responsibility or burden? Or, is it both at the same time? <<<
Yes, it is both. Let’s be honest: my husband’s spanking fetish was the gateway to FLR for us, and I don’t have the freedom to ignore his need for that. I have come to enjoy my disciplinary role, but I can see that for a reluctant spanker, DD would be a burden. I don’t know whether I have said this before, but FLR was not always smooth sailing for us. In the early days there was a power struggle because I had to rein in his fantasies about FLR to make the real thing satisfying for me. In the end, I think we arrived at a compromise between his fantasies and my own goals.
Early in our FLR, Wayne used to give me books to read about FLR and female domination. I didn’t read them all because I resented the idea that I needed to “learn” how to be the boss. But I did read one of the books because it was short. (The title slips my mind). The thing I remember about that book was the female author’s contention that you should absolutely NOT spank your husband as discipline because if you do, you won’t have a true FLR, you will have a MLR in which you become a slave to his kink. Wayne had not read the book before giving it to me, so he was shocked by the no-spanking rule and frightened that I would take it to heart.
In the end, we compromised. I told him I understood that he needed spanking to be a part of our FLR, but I made him understand that henceforth the only “proper way to spank” was MY way. He would also have to accept that I expected him to submit to other “less sexy” forms of discipline. Fortunately, he was able to adapt to that, which gave me a feeling of freedom to lead my own way.
I think our FLR worked because we communicated enough to work things out. In the beginning, he kept a journal through which he communicated his thoughts and feelings to me. I invited him to share his fantasies with me, with the understanding that he should have no expectation that I would fulfill those fantasies. As it turned out, I did incorporate some of his fantasies into our FLR, while setting aside some that didn’t appeal to me. I think that worked because he was able to eroticize my power to deny him the fulfillment of certain cravings while granting him others.
As things stand now, I feel quite free. I think I also give him quite a bit of freedom. For example, I don’t mind that he still consumes femdom porn as an outlet for certain kinks I choose not to engage with. (Pegging is an example). Most importantly, I feel that my authority is real because I am able to accomplish my own goals, while meeting his need to feel submissive to me.
Incidentally, I don’t think the limits I put on his freedom are ever “arbitrary or pointless.” I may be capricious in an erotically playful way sometimes, but when I discipline or overrule him for real, I have real reasons. Dan, I don’t entirely agree with you that Anne is using her authority in an arbitrary or pointless way when she tells you to limit yourself to 2 beers or to lay off the political arguments. Drinking isn’t a problem for Wayne, but I have punished him for overindulgence in snack foods. One could argue that it’s his business if he wants a second serving of chips, but it affects his health, as well as his physical attractiveness, and those things affect me. Likewise with political arguments he gets into on Twitter: those arguments can affect his mood and his attentiveness to me. I have on occasion paddled him and revoked his internet access for being too lost in a debate with some stranger online to listen to me. Maybe when Anne tries to control those behaviors, she feels that they do affect her.
Danielle (continued):
Delete>>>Is it freeing to make decisions without checking with him and even more so to impose your own rules or decisions on him?<<<
All in all, yes it is. I feel free to seek his opinion and his advice about decisions, so I don’t feel like I have to shoulder the responsibility for every decision, but I like having the final say.
>>>Assuming that, as the quote indicates, such freedom comes along with a certain exchange between freedom and control--because you are now taking on additional responsibility and leadership--is that trade-off something you feel comfortable with?<<<
Yes, I am. But it took work to get to this point.
Come to think of it, intuition tells me we have reached a point in our FLR where I could maintain my authority over my husband without actually spanking him anymore…or spanking him very rarely. Just the threat of a spanking generally has the desired effect. Non-spanking discipline works well too. In fact, I think a good scolding is almost as effective as a spanking now. Wayne actually refers to scolding as “verbal spanking”, which I take to mean that scolding can almost replace his craving for spanking. (And a verbal spanking has the advantage that it can be done anywhere). That doesn’t mean that I intend to stop spanking my husband altogether. But when I spank him now, it’s because I want to, not because I feel obliged to, and that makes me feel really free.
Danielle,
DeleteYou said, "...but I like having the final say" in your comment. It is actually empowering for me in other ways when having the final say. For example, my confidence on the job has never been greater. Yet, in my own marriage I never sought to have it. I have to wonder whether playful spanking, which grew to discipline over the long haul, had anything to do with my husband expressing his desire to be more submissive to me. My guess is that one doesn't just become more submissive, he or she exposes what's already there.
As far as feeling free, I'm watching my husband from our dining room as I type this comment. He's busy rinsing dishes to be put in the dishwasher, and then he'll thoroughly clean the sink, stove top, countertop and sweep the floor. He knows I'll check the kitchen before turning in. I'm relaxing, about to catch up on the news. It is amazing and empowering that as I watch the back of his masculine looking shaved head and broad shoulders bend and walk around in the kitchen through the partial opening between both rooms, he's working and he's completely happy. I'm free from the cleanup work. With all he does, I have a certain responsibility to him as far as those things making up his happiness.
You also said, "I think our FLR worked because we communicated enough to work things out." I think my husband and I are happy, and things are working so well, because of good communication. The only communication I missed was that I really didn’t think he wanted me to have far greater authority than I already had in our FLR, and now I pay closer attention to him.
Have a nice week,
CarolH.
Hi Danielle. You said, "In the early days there was a power struggle because I had to rein in his fantasies about FLR to make the real thing satisfying for me." Can you give examples of areas where your reality conflicted with his fantasies?
DeleteI get what you're saying about drinking having an effect on her, though the line drawing is hard. If I have too much at work and drive home, that has a potential effect on her, because it puts my job, our income, our reputations at risk. Similarly, if drinking leads to bad or embarrassing behavior, that has an effect on her. But, if I'm sitting quietly at home, reading a book and sipping lite beer, then I go to bed at the same time she does and get up earlier than her and walk the dogs while she sleeps? The adverse impact of her on that seems a little contrived. It's a conundrum, and I'm not sure there is a simple answer. At some point, if there is a real exchange of power than some of her calls are going to be uncomfortable for me. Yet, there is some line where it feels like it has crossed a line from wife "led" to wife "dictating."
Hi Danielle,
DeleteThere is a lot of bad advice out there about male discipline and I am glad you ignored that particularly bad advice that a woman cannot use spanking to discipline a man with a spanking fetish. I am a male with a spanking fetish and my wife very thoroughly disciplines me with spanking. But like most myths there is a figment of truth in it if a wife or girlfriend simply caters to the male fantasy that will never be an effective punishment. But what you did rather than recreate Wayne’s fantasy was to turn the fantasy into a shared reality for both of you with the spanking and other discipline administered on your terms and your way (the "power struggle" you allude to is probably a necessary part of it because in the beginning the desire to act out the fantasy for the male is very strong). What a male asking for discipline really needs and what he thinks he needs are very different things. He does need discipline and is right about that. But the discipline he needs is his wife taking charge of his behavior, administering punishment when needed, and exercising her authority strongly enough that he can surrender to her. More than any of that he needs her to make it their shared reality as you put it “satisfying to me”
Alan
Danielle here:
DeleteDan, you asked: >>>Can you give examples of areas where your reality conflicted with his fantasies?<<<
The main thing was that he once I agreed to FLR, Wayne thought he had to educate me about how to do it. So he gave me books and articles to read. I resented that because I felt that he was trying to get me to conform to an image in his head that was contrary to my own sense of self. I think I told him at one point, “If FLR involves homework for me, I’m not interested.”
Here’s an example that may sound trivial but didn’t feel trivial to me. He thought I should no longer say please and thank you to him because that didn’t sound dominant to him. He said I should be more “imperious”, i.e. bitchy. I wasn’t comfortable dropping the social niceties, even though I expected him to treat my polite requests as orders. He was so insistent about it that one day I blew up and tore a strip off him for presuming to tell me how I had to speak. In the long run, as I became comfortable with my dominant status, I started to develop a bitchy tone, dropping the please and thank you’s. But I needed to follow my own path at my own pace.
Unsurprisingly, spanking itself was a source of conflict. Once again, Wayne thought I had to be educated about how and when to give a proper spanking. In retrospect, I suppose I could have learned something if I had been more open to guidance and suggestions. But once again I felt that he was trying to force me to conform to a script, and I was determined to do things my way. He wanted to have a weekly spanking schedule, but I thought it was silly to spank him on a schedule, whether I felt like it or not. It also annoyed me when he would “suggest” that maybe he deserved to be spanked if I chided him for some little thing. I felt I was being manipulated. That was one of my motivations to branch out to non-spanking punishments. If he “suggested” a spanking was in order, I would punish him in some other way. That broke him of the habit of making suggestions. Lol.
Incidentally, the problem wasn’t a reluctance to spank on my part. On the contrary, I had started to enjoy spankings. I liked having the power to humble Wayne that way. I liked the one-sided “discussions” when he was bent over with his bottom bared. I liked deciding whether to use the paddle, the hairbrush, or the strap, and how long and hard to apply them depending on my mood and the reason for punishment. I liked the sound of the implements striking bare skin. I liked how responsive he was, physically and vocally. I think Brett is right about spanking being “a form of communication.” As such, it is a form of self expression for the spanker. That’s why I needed to break Wayne of the annoying habit of trying to coach me. That was ruining a good thing for me.
As I have said before, Wayne also has femdom kinks that go beyond spanking, and once the FLR door was opened, he began to suggest that we should try this or that. I didn’t welcome those suggestions because I felt once again that he was pressuring me. We eventually came to a compromise on that. I invited him to share his fantasies, with the understanding he should not expect me to act on any didn’t interest me. That worked well, I think. As it turned out, I learned to enjoy some of his kinks, and I stopped feeling pressure to act on ones I wouldn’t enjoy.
Alan wrote: >>>What a male asking for discipline really needs and what he thinks he needs are very different things. He does need discipline and is right about that. But the discipline he needs is his wife taking charge of his behavior, administering punishment when needed, and exercising her authority strongly enough that he can surrender to her.<<<
DeleteAlan, I don’t think it is truly discipline my husband needed from me. By the time we began the FLR phase of our marriage he was a middle aged man who had demonstrated he was independent and self disciplined enough to succeed in life without my interventions. I believe he wanted the erotic experience of surrendering to me, and that was the whole point of his desire to be disciplined by me within the context of a FLR. I used to think all men who ask for DD must be sexually submissive like my husband, but I no longer think so. Some of the men here seem to want DD as an aid to the realization of behavioral goals of their own making but are uninterested in submitting to their wives in a more general way. I guess that’s why they want DD without FLR.
Danielle
Danielle,
Delete>>> ‘He wanted to have a weekly spanking schedule, but I thought it was silly to spank him on a schedule, whether I felt like it or not. It also annoyed me when he would “suggest” that maybe he deserved to be spanked if I chided him for some little thing. I felt I was being manipulated. That was one of my motivations to branch out to non-spanking punishments. If he “suggested” a spanking was in order, I would punish him in some other way. That broke him of the habit of making suggestions. Lol.’
When we strip away all the window dressing of adult discipline relationships, I think many of us on the spanked side of the coin are looking to fulfill our desires, which vary from person to person, but are to some large degree pursued out of self-interest. Maybe for your husband, you turned out to be more genuine than he was hoping for. :) I’m like he is in that I want a wife who will take charge and use spanking to punish me. No hidden agendas. That’s my kink, and it would be silly to characterize it as something more noble than that. It’s just that my kink is best satisfied when discipline is authentic and lends itself to some practical disciplinary benefits. The difference for me is that I need my wife to be expressing herself, not following my directions. Manipulating her would be cheating myself of what I actually want. When she is free to express herself, to satisfy herself, then we have the potential for a mutually beneficial relationship. It’s like sex in that we want to please ourselves and each other, however, unlike typical sexual relationships, there’s no failure in the absence of the actual act. No need for spanking is a success and I can, without question, live with no spanking. The potential for failure is there, and my wife, under her desire and control, has a way of addressing it that is very powerful.
Danielle
DeleteDanielle, you wrote: “I believe he wanted the erotic experience of surrendering to me, and that was the whole point of his desire to be disciplined by me within the context of a FLR “. You are correct: the erotic experience of surrendering is the ultimate goal BUT real wife initiated discipline is the catalyst that produces that. Without that, there is little eroticism and no real discipline. Personally I believe the desire for discipline from a loved and trusted partner has roots and motivations that are independent of the erotic impulse that responds to disciplinary spanking. So, yes discipline definitely can eroticize punishment but at the same time the desire for discipline can and does have other motives. Again speaking personally I like very much the fact that my wife can stop cold some of my worst habits and behaviors, and those she can’t stop cold , she can make me feel very ashamed and motivated to change some themselves. Incidentally spanking is not always erotic. Some spanking may start that way but end up as pure punishment. Other spankings are pure punishment from the beginning. This includes most “on the spot “spankings So while not every spanking is erotic, every times a wife exercises her disciplinary authority ( or threatens to do so), it is very definitely erotic.
Alan
Hi Danielle. I'm sorry for the delayed response to your answer to my question. For whatever reason, the week just slipped away from me.
DeleteI get the resentment about being "coached" or "manipulated," though I think that reaction can vary a lot. I think my wife would say that her attitude toward both FLR and DD became much more solid and confident after I bought a book for her called The Hesitant Mistress. I don't really know why, but something about that particular book just really clicked for her.
"In the long run, as I became comfortable with my dominant status, I started to develop a bitchy tone, dropping the please and thank you’s. But I needed to follow my own path at my own pace." Personally, I think adding a "please" at the end of what is otherwise an order can be plenty authoritative. There is a world of difference between, "Would you please take my plate away?" and "Take my plate, please."
As I think I've said before, I love your phrase "one-sided discussions."
Brett wrote >>>Maybe for your husband, you turned out to be more genuine than he was hoping for. :) <<<
DeleteMy husband often tells me that he feels lucky to have a wife like me. But I don’t think FLR has always been easy on him. For example, I remember one occasion when he annoyed me when we were out, and I said something like, “Just wait until we get home, mister!” I had intended to spank him when we got home, but we got home late and I was tired, so I didn’t do it. Then I forgot all about it. About a week later, he wrote a letter to me and left it on my pillow. I was shocked to see that the threat I had completely forgotten about had been consuming him for a week. He wrote that for the first couple of days he was in a constant state of suspense, expecting a spanking whenever I found a convenient moment. Then he realized that I had simply forgotten about it. He apologized for writing the letter because he understood I had no obligation to follow through on my threat, but he had to express his feelings. He was hurt by the awareness that a threat that had obsessed him for a week was so trivial to me that I had forgotten about it. He also told me that refraining from reminding me about it had been a struggle. He had wanted to remind me, but he thought that would break my rule that he was not allowed to “suggest” that I spank him. I felt bad because I realized how much more intense the experience of FLR was for him than it was for me, such that I could hurt him without even realizing it. I never gave him the missed spanking because it would have been pointless to punish him at that point. The frustration I had inadvertently caused was punishment enough. I guess I could have spanked him as compensation for having hurt him, but I didn’t want to give him a fake spanking. That wouldn’t have satisfied either of us. Instead, I made it up to him in a more traditional way. ;-)
>>>It’s just that my kink is best satisfied when discipline is authentic and lends itself to some practical disciplinary benefits. The difference for me is that I need my wife to be expressing herself.<<<
I feel the same way as a disciplinarian, Brett. Though spanking is my husband’s kink, not mine, I do get a kind of pleasure from wielding that power, and doing it for some fake reason would ruin it for me... and probably for my husband too.
Danielle
"Personally I believe the desire for discipline from a loved and trusted partner has roots and motivations that are independent of the erotic impulse that responds to disciplinary spanking." Alan, I feel that way, too. At least in my own case, which is an important qualifier, as there seem to be a lot of individual mixes of motivations for all of us here. For me, a very big part of the motivation is around accountability and boundaries. For whatever reason, having boundaries set for me and getting punished for transgressing them have a very perverse attraction. The spanking itself is more of a means to those ends. Surrendering is a goal as well, though I find it is one where the attraction is in big tension with the reality.
DeleteAlan wrote: >>>Incidentally spanking is not always erotic. Some spanking may start that way but end up as pure punishment.<<<
DeleteI think that depends on the individual, Alan. I think my husband is like Brett. If I understand Brett, he doesn’t find spanking play erotic. But he would find it erotic to be spanked for a real disciplinary reason. I think that’s true of my husband too. Spanking is most erotic when it is done for disciplinary rather than erotic purposes. That applies to me as a spanker too. Play spanking my husband as foreplay doesn't do much for either of us. But there is a spark when I discipline him.
Danielle
That describes it pretty accurately, Danielle. It’s not a fetish just about spanking. It is the combination of spanking and discipline, each relying on the other to create the right circumstances. The idea of that situation is erotic, or it would not be a subject I give much thought to. I discovered this fetish as a child, before there was any conscious awareness of sex, so I think it makes sense that the experience that attracts me is punishment and not sexual foreplay, yet is still that part of my sexuality, genetic or imprinted early on.
DeleteSpanking, the way I see it, is inherently sexual but many people, apparently, don’t make the connection. Nothing is desirable for everyone. I won’t try to list the aspects that turn people on about spanking, but one for me is the power and authority of the disciplinarian. When you, Danielle, describe the situation where your husband was left to agonize over whether you were going to punish him or not, it pushes my buttons. It is completely consistent with parental discipline. Am I really in that kind of trouble? Will I get a spanking!? No way to be completely sure until it happens and, if so, then when will it happen? A parent may just forget, and at some point you realize you’re off the hook, but until then, you don’t know. It’s a helpless feeling, your fate in the hands of the powers that be. The authority exists whether punished or not. So the role of disciplinarian is a real responsibility that does impact the life of their partner. It’s not a game, and that’s what makes it so compelling.
The more I’ve thought about it, if I was looking for a discipline relationship like FLR, she would have to fit me and my lifestyle. I’m not submissive, and I would have to respect her judgment. It wouldn’t work if we didn’t agree to at least some extent about right and wrong and what she should be controlling. I want her to be happy and will usually be accommodating to her wishes, especially if something is important to her, so it’s not like punishment would be required much anyway. I’m not in a DD relationship with my wife, and we manage fine without it. If there’s a problem, we talk about it. Neither of us needs to be bullied into anything.
ReplyDeleteThere was also the opinion expressed that a wife should not spank her husband for discipline if she doesn’t want to become a “slave to his kink.” That may be true in many cases, I wouldn’t know, but not in mine. I’m a spanko, but I don’t get spanked as an adult. If I was in an FLR (or whatever one might call it,) I would not be looking to get in trouble. It doesn’t work that way. Like growing up, the only punishment I really had to fear was a spanking, and it was effective. A fetish for the idea of spanking discipline is not necessarily wanting it to happen. It’s exciting to think about. It would strengthen my attraction to my wife. If it happens, it’s a powerful message that addresses a problem. But the problem doesn’t get fixed by the spanking or any other method of punishment. Punishment is communication, and if it conveys a justifiable reason to change beyond just obedience, it motivates change.
Brett,
DeleteI think you must be a good husband. You say you have a spanking fetish, and you fantasize about DD, but you and your wife are doing fine without it. Am I right to read between the lines that your wife doesn’t spank you because she doesn’t want to and that you are fine with the fantasy remaining a fantasy? If so, I think the fantasy has less of a grip on you than it did on my husband. I find that admirable. You wrote that neither you nor your wife “needs to be bullied into anything.” I just want to say that I don’t see DD within FLR as “bullying”. I am fulfilling a need for my husband.
The idea that it is foolish to try to use spanking as “discipline” on a man with a spanking fetish wasn’t mine. That was from a book about FLR. If memory serves me, the author was a professional dominatrix with experience in full time D/s relationships. She argued that spanking is a sexual service that many men are prepared to pay for. Therefore, she reasoned, it is illogical to assume that spanking is truly “punishment” for that kind of man. She also said her advice that it was unwise to use spanking as discipline was based on her own personal experience.
Ultimately, I ignored her advice, but I warned my husband at the outset that I would use spanking my own way, and that if I ever got the feeling that he was misbehaving intentionally to provoke spankings, I would stop. I also made clear that non-spanking discipline would be on the menu. Fortunately, I have been happy with the result, but that may be due to unique characteristics of my husband. I don’t know.
You wrote: >>>A fetish for the idea of spanking discipline is not necessarily wanting it to happen. It’s exciting to think about. It would strengthen my attraction to my wife. If it happens, it’s a powerful message that addresses a problem. But the problem doesn’t get fixed by the spanking or any other method of punishment. Punishment is communication, and if it conveys a justifiable reason to change beyond just obedience, it motivates change.<<<
I think that is right as concerns a man like my husband. I was pleasantly surprised to discover that, contrary to the prediction in that book, my husband never seems to provoke spankings (or other punishments) intentionally. For example, if I tell him to do something and threaten to spank him if he doesn’t, he does it, and he generally does it well. On the rare occasion when he does disappoint me and I decide to punish him, he will sometimes make excuses and try to talk his way out of punishment. That has always puzzled me. Why would he try so hard to avoid something that he craves sexually? Maybe he is consciously trying to disprove the argument of that book that it is counterproductive to use spanking discipline on a man with a spanking fetish. But I think it is also that he feels bound by a sense of honor to live up to the agreed conditions of our FLR, and I believe he has a real sense of shame when I communicate by means of punishment that he has failed to meet my expectations. Does that make sense?
Danielle
"Why would he try so hard to avoid something that he craves sexually?"
DeleteSome of us don't crave spanking so much as crave having a partner who holds authority in the relationship and who sees spanking as an appropriate sanction when they're dissatisfied with our behavior. Perhaps your husband sees things similarly.
Danielle,
DeleteThank you for your response. And thank you Dan for the opportunity to talk about this here.
> “Am I right to read between the lines that your wife doesn’t spank you because she doesn’t want to and that you are fine with the fantasy remaining a fantasy?”
Yes. My wife might take on the role in an FLR if I couldn’t manage without it. I would have to coach her on how she should act in that role because it’s not something she knows much about or is attracted to. That dynamic doesn’t interest me. We experimented a little years ago with just playful spanking, and it didn’t work on any level for either of us. The right chemistry doesn’t exist between us for that.
> “You wrote that neither you nor your wife “needs to be bullied into anything.” I just want to say that I don’t see DD within FLR as “bullying”. I am fulfilling a need for my husband.”
I believe you. I didn’t mean to imply any different. It depends on the relationship and nature of the partners. If DD can work to deter unwanted behavior, no matter how the husband actually views the behavior, and your husband wants this to be the case, then that’s not what I would call bullying. To bully there needs to be coercion that is not fairly consensual. In domestic abuse, I can see where DD could be bullying, but your husband explicitly asked you to take on the role to lead, and that is what you are doing.
> “She argued that spanking is a sexual service that many men are prepared to pay for. Therefore, she reasoned, it is illogical to assume that spanking is truly “punishment” for that kind of man.”
Her experience must be a valuable resource for knowledge on the applicable subjects. She must know a lot about what many men want and will pay for. A wife just getting into DD should know about BDSM. She needs to be able to recognize and understand the sexuality, however, she should also realize that it’s complex and can vary from one person’s kink to another. When you warned your husband at the outset that you would use spanking your own way, and that you would stop if he misbehaved intentionally to provoke spankings, then that is what I would want to hear from my wife. Those are the words of a genuine disciplinarian, which is the whole idea of the dynamic that attracts me. The fact is, like your husband, I would not consciously provoke punishment of any kind. It’s not ethical. It’s not rewarding. Spanking is the form of punishment that both attracts and repels me the strongest. If she spanks and I think, or am convinced to believe, that she is justified in doing so, then it’s as effective as any non-sexual punishment I would be subject to. My fetish is being fulfilled, and I also want her to be fulfilled. It is in the end, haha, a good thing that only strengthens the relationship and our desire for it.
> “On the rare occasion when he does disappoint me and I decide to punish him, he will sometimes make excuses and try to talk his way out of punishment. That has always puzzled me.
I would probably try to talk my way out of it. I want the relationship and the conditions of DD. There is an element of excitement in the prospect of punishment, there is fulfillment in it having happened, and there is a strong attraction to my wife and her desire and ability to be a disciplinarian. When faced with it, though, I see little difference from what I experienced growing up. I don’t want the pain and shame of this event. It is my wife’s response to my failure, and me having to own that failure in the most humbling way. I know it’s a paradox. I love what I hate. I hate what I love. From above there’s a forest I see but, in amongst the trees, DD for me is still theoretical.
During the school year (before COVID), when I was paddling Art every Monday morning, there were times when it felt like a responsibility or even a chore, though not as far as a burden. At those times I would remind myself that this chore only takes a couple minutes and dramatically reduces his arrogance, so it is really worth doing. But yes, there is a slight loss of freedom in exchange for a big measure of control. I HAD to paddle him every Monday morning. It was expected.
ReplyDeleteAt these times when I felt it a chore I would paddle him silently rather than giving him verbal reminders about how to behave at work and home. I think he knows when I'm not really into it, but he would treat me just the same, kissing my cheek and thanking me and then heading off to work.
Now, on a summer schedule with kids at home, paddlings are few and far between. He is not as arrogant working from home and working less, so DD is less necessary now. Because we are working a lot together outside on our acreage, sometimes far from the house, we have had our first opportunity to experience DD outside. That felt quite different and not a chore at all, hidden on the far side of the tractor with his hands on the wheel and a switch in my hand!
Liz
Hi Liz. I like that distinction between a "chore" and a "burden."
DeleteYou're experience with DD outdoors is humbling and challenging because it now means that you who have described your DD as among the more limited among our commenters have now eclipsed me in exploring DD variations and openness. My wife and I need to step up our game!
We tried it once and may never again. But it did feel deliciously naughty to spank him outdoors (even fully clothed). We had quite the romp later that night!
DeleteLiz
Liz, I totally agree that outdoor spanking is exciting. The feeling of naughtiness, the sense of danger. Skinny dipping has the same effect on me. Well, I haven't don't that for a long time, but when I was young...
DeleteDanielle
You two are giving me ideas . . .
DeleteI meant hands on the back tire ...
ReplyDeleteLiz
Freedom and responsibility depend on what phase of the relationship I compare to. I went from being single to being married and trying to keep the decision making equal. The marriage gradually evolved from there to one in which I made most decisions. Recently, we decided to acknowledge that we had (and both wanted) a wife led marriage. Spanking was not part of the relationship until after we explicitly agreed that I should be in charge.
ReplyDeleteI definitely felt more responsibility for his happiness at each stage than the stage before. I also feel more responsible for his behavior. The burden of that responsibility went down when we acknowledged that we have a wife led marriage. Before, if he misbehaved, I would feel obligated to do something about it but wouldn't know quite what to do and I felt like I needed to convince him to accept whatever I did. Now, I know I can use my paddle anytime he acts up. It is still a burden, but much less so. Sometimes I feel obligated to paddle his behind when I would rather be doing something else. (I'm kinda embarrassed to admit that I sometimes get into a mood where I really enjoy it.)
I will never again have the freedom that I had when I was single to do something irresponsible as long as I accept the consequences. I suppose I do have freedom from having to do some mundane tasks that I never liked doing.
"I definitely felt more responsibility for his happiness at each stage than the stage before. I also feel more responsible for his behavior. The burden of that responsibility went down when we acknowledged that we have a wife led marriage." It is interesting that getting your mind around the fact of the power exchange and openly acknowledging it makes things easier and more natural. That includes acknowledging to yourself that the other person really wants the arrangement. My wife has said that for a long time she couldn't quite believe that I really wanted our DD arrangement and wouldn't walk away from it at some point, because she herself does not want to be a spanking recipient or to be dominated by another person, so she just couldn't quite get that I "really" wanted it.
DeleteDan,
Delete"My wife has said that for a long time she couldn't quite believe that I really wanted our DD arrangement and wouldn't walk away from it at some point"
If you substitute DD with DD/FLR in your statement, it's exactly how I felt. My husband had a sort of kinky but moderate FLR/spanking relationship with me. I guess I was always the ultimate boss, but we had a generally balanced relationship when it came to power. He always hinted at me having more control and it was a few years later that I finally realized he really wanted our present arrangement. It worked out fine for the both of us overall. I think for DD/FLR to coexist a man also has to be very often sexually submissive, which I've found my husband is without revealing more and crossing the line on your blog. It’s got to often be the same if a man is Dominant and a girlfriend or wife is submissive. I think that discipline may change for some D/s couples. I'm going to dish out punishment only when he really needs it, but for him it may not need to be a ritual. I think we both gained more out of the fairly tough punishment I gave my husband a couple of weeks ago and the lasting turnaround I've seen in his behavior. Discipline can take on a lighter tone and be a bit like a fun ritual. I didn't punish him on Saturday for anything, though I gave him a few strong taps of my cane on the bottom for not pushing that little red rubber ball the way I wanted with his nose (he always has trouble with figure 8s lol). If anything, its a reminder I'm the boss that he seems to like. Seriously, I completely understand how you wife felt.
Great topic.
CarolH.
It's hard for me to say how extensively wanting DD and being sexually submissive go hand in hand. Or, whether one tends to lead to the other regardless of which comes first. For me, sexual submission definitely was not part of the motivation in the beginning, but it's something I've become more open to over time. Others seem to begin with an interest in being sexually dominated, and DD may become one aspect of the that D/s relationship.
DeleteDan,
Delete"For me, sexual submission definitely was not part of the motivation in the beginning, but it's something I've become more open to over time."
My husband never seemed to be motivated as far as being sexually submissive to me. In his case I think DD and some toughness from me over the years might have seemed sexy and exciting to him. He loves it. Perhaps you may change and be more open to other things as you and your wife mature and your relationship evolves.
Regards,
CarolH
Carol, it's possible. I have learned to never say never where change and personal growth are concerned.
DeleteI had an entire post and with one finger slip lost the entire thing. Now I have to try to reconstruct it. Here goes:
ReplyDeleteTo someone of my personality type, saying that giving up control gives you more freedom sounds like:
-something religion will tell people to keep them from asserting themselves
-some crunchy granola motivational poster for D/s people
-the person who wrote it took peyote before picking up their pen
-something Trump would tell people whose rights he is about to revoke. "Just give me total control and you'll be freer than ever. So free you'll be tired of the freedom."
Let's be honest, freedom is being able to do whatever the hell you want. You don't get that by giving up control. When a submissive surrenders control, they don't become freer, they are satisfying their craving to be subordinate to another person's will. Bondage, handcuffs, restraints.......all trademarks of D/s relationships and none reek of 'freedom'. Nothing wrong with that...hell I do it....but take it for what it really is: a voluntary LOSS of freedom.
And for Tops? Their ability to control makes them less free? That's just......well funny. The whole perk of being in control is to be free to do what you want. Now, if you want to get all "Spiderman-ny" and say that for a Top "with great power comes great responsibility", well, I'll concede that. But being responsible is not a lack of freedom....because you are free to be irresponsible if you choose to. It's just that not many subs are going to trust you for very long if you make that choice.
And the funniest thing about all of this is, that if a person chooses to relinquish control and find they gave up to much and want to dial it back a bit.....ironically they are FREE to do so. So even when you're not free you're free. :-)
Of course, freedom may also be just another word for nothing left to lose. ;-)
See, my Jimmy is a smartass just like you, kd. And I don't ever want him to lose that swagger, so it's good to see a guy who has received a lot of spankings who still has it.
DeleteI don't get the opening quote, either. I have more freedom since taking up the bath brush. Jimmy's disrespect toward women is more controlled. End of story!
Belle
But, of course, for a determinist such as yourself, the freedom of "doing whatever the hell you want" is a total illusion, right? :-) As is "control" for that matter.
DeleteIf someone has a craving or a bad habit, and they indulge it over and over again to their own detriment, is that "freedom"? I know that a Buddhist would like say that is the ultimate enslavement even if, to the outsider, it looks like freedom.
I totally disagree with, "But being responsible is not a lack of freedom....because you are free to be irresponsible if you choose to." The fact that you may revoke taking on responsibility doesn't mean that until you do you haven't limited your own freedom. I can say with total assurance that at each point where I took on management responsibilities, I've found my ability to act in my own interests more and more limited, at least to the extent that I was actually being a good manager. Yes, I have the freedom to walk away from that role entirely or to just do a piss poor job of it, but as long as I am in that role and as long as I care about doing it well, I have more limited choices than I did back before I took on that role.
Basically, I think you are rewriting the quote to: "A submissive forever and unconditionally gives up all control for freedom. A Dominant unconditionally and forever gives up all freedom for unlimited control.” But, that's not what it says. Both parts of the quote refer to "giving up" -- nothing in those two words suggests that the choice is irrevocable or that what is being given up is total and for all time.
Dan,
DeleteYou are right, there is nothing unconditional about it; but there may be something addictive about it. I mentioned this once before, but it’s always made the process of giving up control leads to freedom real to me. The first time I experienced it was with my former girlfriend who occasionally used her hardwood sorority paddle usually to augment a punishment. So it would be a session with brush or strap, some cornertime and then called out to lie across the bed for the paddle. I hated that paddle because it always meant serious pain and a bottom I wouldn't be sitting on comfortably for days. So I whined a little and particularly pissed her off by clenching my cheeks which I was then too dumb to know only made it worse. But I remember one time her saying to me: “Alan, just let go and get out of your head –the paddle will make you free” (probably not her exact words, but close) That time I actual did let go and tried to stop fighting it and even raised my bum to it toward the end to show her I was trying. It didn’t hurt any less and the spanking was just as hard, but when it was over I was elated and deeply relaxed. The tension and bad mood that had brought on the discipline was completely gone and I was almost high well into the next day. Always letting go like that is not always possible and I know some lovely cocktail of chemicals produced the euphoria but I have never forgot that lesson about letting go of control and where it can take you
Alan
Dan: I almost hate to say this but I'm beginning to think you just don't understand determinism. ;-) In the moment, a person is free to choose, and does. All determinism says is that their choice is determined by a multitude of factors that lead them irresistibly to the choice they make.
DeleteAs for your second example, you are only substituting one addiction for another, not liberating the person from their addiction. A person who can't do it on their own puts it on someone else......or in the case of 12-step, a higher being. But that too is an illusion because no matter whether you believe a god is helping you or your wife will spank you, your addictive behavior will not change until you decide to end it. You yourself said that despite knowing a punishment might be in your future, you still sometimes overindulge anyway.
My post was obviously intended to be cheeky. But seriously, all freedom is limited by choice because every choice has a consequence and as such fear of those consequences limit our 'freedom' to pick something we might just want to do because we feel like it.
I also have no idea where you think I inserted "unconditionally" into what I wrote? It certainly was not part of my thought process.
Danielle: I appreciate that you got the flavor of my post. I may have 'smartass' in common with Jimmy, but from what you write, the similarities kind of end there.
Alan: That was a pretty slick nonseXquitur insertion.
Belle: Sorry I meant to address my response to you, not "Danielle". There are way more women here than I ever had to keep track of before. LOL
DeleteI inserted "unconditionally" because your theory seems to be that a limitation isn't a limitation unless it is irrevocable and that a choice isn't a free choice unless it is basically arbitrary.
DeleteAlan, I get that, and I think the same could be applied to many "bad" experiences. They may be inherently unpleasant, but we make them worse by resisting their inevitability, and resistance is part of maintaining control even if just your sense that you *are* in control by virtue of your internal resistance.
DeleteDan: If it seemed that way then it was probably poor wording on my part, because I don't think that. Perhaps, like I said earlier, in my attempt to be cheeky, the theoretical aspect was not well honed.
DeleteOne persons nonseXquitur is anthers commonSensquitur .It's all deterministic!
DeleteAlan
But KD, you were right about one thing for sure. Bobbie McGee
ReplyDelete