"At the heart of
every frustration lies a basic structure: the collision of a wish with an
unyielding reality." - Alain de Botton
Hello all. Welcome back to the Disciplinary Couples
Club. Our weekly meeting of men and
women who are in, or interested in being in, Domestic Discipline relationships.
I'm not sure exactly what happened, but I posted this several hours ago. Then, upon returning from running some errands, it was nowhere to be found. I have no idea what happened. Thankfully, I write these posts in Word then copy and paste to Blogger, and I had not yet deleted the Word file. Anyway, sorry for the late post.
I hope you all had a great week. Mine was one that had me
thinking quite a bit about consequences.
To some extent, it was “same old, same old.” Plans for self-improvement and better
behavior made early in the week, then all but abandoned by week’s end. But, that’s not a big departure from my
normal week. Instead, there were some
things going on at work that created an interesting interplay between my “real
life” and the things we talk about here in this little electronic
community. There also were some interesting,
and I think largely unintentional, overlaps among some of the blog comments. While the topic was about realization and rationalizations,
several of the comments ended up focusing, to one extent or another, on how we
feel about “imposed” discipline. ZM made
the point explicitly and talked about the essential paradox of wanting
something, on the one hand, and wanting to avoid it, on the other and how
having it “imposed” both in support of, and somewhat against, our wishes somehow
bridges the two:
“So I have a fantasy of
being subject to real discipline, and that it be imposed without my really
having a say in the matter (at least on a situation to situation basis). . .
. In summary, I really, really want her
to impose something that I definitely won't want or enjoy in the least. And
then when she does impose her will, I will probably struggle somewhat with
having to submit to her authority, so she needs to be super strict and firm,
even to the point of being ultra bitchy, and that will help me to not struggle
as much? Yeah, I guess it all seems straightforward and logical! ;-)”
Then there was this from LH,
which again hit on wanting something you don’t want, how having it imposed
bridges that gap, and how a couple’s comfort level with such imposition may depend
on their comfort level with an FLR relationship:
I think the degree or
level of a FLR might impact the contradictory reactions associated with
discipline and imposed boundaries. My wife is the boss but she can be very
benevolent, very fair when it comes to the rules, boundaries and punishment.
For example, she was extraordinarily annoyed when I didn't finish a project
that was taking far too long in our home. My heart wasn't into it and it was a
project I've done before. It was boring and annoying. Here I am a man in my 50s
and she grounded me for two entire weekends, which were to be dedicated to
completing the home project. I was going to see a show with friends and had
paid for my ticket in advance. She let me to go to the show as scheduled with
the promise that the job would be done before a certain date. The grounding
took place over the following two weekends. It worked out well because I
finished most of the work the first weekend and had light work and cleanup to
do the next weekend. I gave a bit more explanation than was probably necessary,
but the point is that I would have resented things if she had told me I
couldn't go to the show. My wife was happy, but it also annoyed me in the
moment that she said she would have disciplined me if the job had not been
wrapped up. My first thought was I'm an adult. Do I have to be disciplined?
Later, the kinky part of me was wishing she had disciplined me.
Finally, there was this from
Liz:
First, it is extremely
comforting to know there is something I can actually do about Art's arrogance.
I used to feel helpless, to the point that our marriage was in danger and I had
to leave temporarily. He did not respond to my anger or my sadness about the
way he was treating our children. But he does respond to the paddle! And even
to threats, knowing looks, and other warnings. To know I can actually STOP his
arrogance when I need to has changed everything between us.
Similarly, I don't just
feel comforted by my new authority. I LIKE it. I like knowing I have this power
over him. Neither of us wants an FLR, but there is an "FLRness" to
our relationship that is new. He is more service oriented. He helps more around
the house. He is more polite. He is more attentive to my needs, both in and out
of the bedroom. He is more deferential. I wasn't sure I would like deferential,
but I do. It is a realization that he can be a bit submissive - there, I said
it - without losing his manliness.
All these comments get at,
from various angles, how some of us feel about imposed boundaries and imposed
consequences. For many of us who are
into DD, it’s not just about the spanking and not just about feeling a need to
be held accountable. The extra element
that seems to contribute an outsized share of the fundamental attraction to DD
is the feelings we get from boundaries and discipline that are imposed on us
whether we like it or not. That “whether
we like it or not” isn’t some tangential element. It’s at the heart of the whole thing! What I really like about Liz’s comment is it
points out that “imposed” consequences aren’t just attractive to the men; it’s
part of the benefit for the women too. As
she said, it’s about knowing there is something she “can actually do” about
whatever is causing the relationship problem. It’s about having agency or, as
Liz frankly admits, having “authority” or, at what I think is an even more primal
level, having “power.”
How fortuitous is it, then,
that some of us have this overpowering need to have someone in our lives who
has the power to impose her will on us even when we seem not to want her to do so, while at least some wives have, or can
acquire, a corresponding taste for wielding such power.
I think sometimes the wives
don’t quite understand just how powerful this need is for those of us who have
it. Both LH and ZM allude to the fact
that, in the moment, we genuinely do not want to face the consequences of our
actions, whether spanking, grounding or some alternative punishment. Because the
fear or aversion is real, it is actually easier for us when our wives take a
very strong and unyielding stance, to the point of, as ZM puts it, being “super
strict and firm, even to the point of being ultra bitchy.” And, as LH’s final sentence alludes to, we
even feel disappointed when we successfully avoided the very consequences that
just a short time earlier we were, in fact, so desperate to avoid! It even happens if we do get spanked but less severely than we know was actually deserved. I have been in the middle of a hard spanking, hoping with all my might that it will end soon, then five minutes after it's over felt vaguely disappointed that she had more mercy on me than probably was deserved.
This all does relate,
loosely, to something that happened at work this week, illustrating both the
extent to which some of us crave consequences but also perhaps how DD can
spillover into other areas. As I’ve
alluded to, this last year was pretty rough at work. I won’t identify what I do for a living, but
if I said I was in a “consulting” business that would be more or less true. As a consultant in a large organization,
three are really three elements to my job: (a) selling my expertise (marketing);
(b) delivering that expertise (my actual professional role); and (c) helping
manage and grow the organization. Last
year, I was extremely busy with the last of those elements, while I arguably
under-performed by a good measure on the first two. I’ve also talked more than once about
incidents I’ve had involving insubordination, and recently there was something
that I myself see as exhibiting disappointing leadership behavior. Given what I
myself acknowledge to have been a year where my performance could have been a
hell of a lot better on multiple fronts, I’ve been kind of expecting that as we
close the books on 2019, my under-performance would come back to hit me where
it hurts – in my pocketbook. (Perhaps it’s
no coincidence that the two best routes for getting through to me—my wallet and
my ass—are in such close physical proximity.)
But, it’s not playing out that way.
Everyone is cutting me some slack, probably recognizing just how hard
the job really was last year.
How do I feel about
that? Well, honestly, both relieved and
disappointed. I anticipated that punishment would be coming and, when it didn’t,
part of me was relieved but another part feels like consequences could have and
should have been imposed.
I don’t have a narrow, concrete
topic related to all this. I’ll just leave
it open for discussion around our experiences with and/or feelings about:
- imposed consequences
- the feelings that arise from imposing consequences (for the wives) or having them imposed upon us (for the husbands)
- the mixed feelings we get when consequences should be imposed but aren’t
- whether our DD experiences with imposed consequences, and our attitudes about them, spillover beyond DD
Also, I’d like some help on a
future topic. Liz’s quote also alluded
to parental discipline, observing: “Maybe it is not that hard to act parental
towards men who act childish! We’ve
talked before about the extent to which DD has a “maternal” vibe for some of
us. I’d like to explore that more but am
struggling with ways to flesh out the topic.
If you have ideas, please offer up suggestions, but please don’t provide
an actual response. It’s hard enough coming up with topics each week. Let’s save this one for next time!
Have a great week.
On one level I feel that Art imposed all of these consequences on himself. He asked to be punished for arrogance (but not anything else). He very much wanted us to follow certain guidelines to avoid the maternal aspect as much as possible: No over the knee, no bare bottom. We agreed to a weekly session to limit the frequency. We agreed that he would make a paddle for me to use. None of this was imposed on him.
ReplyDeleteBut on another level, I have imposed some things. Once he bends over the desk, the rest is up to me. How many swats, and how hard, the questions I ask and the answers I expect. I do have full authority at this point. He can stop it, but that would also stop the DD relationship. He has done a very good job of ceding me that authority. He has never asked me to go easy or to stop paddling him. And make no mistake, I paddle hard. There usually are bruises, and now that we have ramped up our sessions to twice a week, he is bruised more days than not.
I can sometimes tell that he would rather forego a session and just head off to work, particularly when he has done nothing wrong and the session is entirely preventative. But he has never suggested that. He brings me the paddle anyway. And I remind him that one reason he has done nothing wrong is the paddling he got a few days ago. He grudgingly agrees (through the groans as I swat him).
I have considered imposing some additional consequences. For instances, when he "punches down" at work, to use Dan's term, I think he should have to apologize. I have suggested this, but he hasn't done it. I haven't yet "suggested" it while I am swinging the paddle. It may come to that, though, and then we will see how much authority I truly have. I'm just not quite ready to go there.
His behavior towards me has changed dramatically, as I have related. He is much more thoughtful, polite, deferential. He also is a much better father. More understanding and less authoritarian. But I have not imposed any of that; he has done it on his own. I do sometimes give him "the look" or even ask him if he needs to have a special session. That straightens him right up. So that is a major change as well - the power I have to threaten him and get results.
I guess the main change in feelings for me is that I now feel I am his equal in the marriage. I have some recourse when he gets too arrogant. Before I felt like he controlled the marriage and there was nothing I could do when his attitude got the better of him. Things are much better now, we both agree. We have no plans to change it. My mother's offhand comment when we were separated that led him to ask for domestic discipline is one of the best things that ever happened to our marriage and our family. I am not sure we would even be together without that, and I have thanked my mother for it. I know some here say that DD is a small part of their relationship. But for us the paddle is a very big deal, even without a lot of "impositions."
Liz
Thanks, Liz. A lot of this resonates with me, and I think it illustrates that these relationships can have benefits across various ranges of control.
DeleteI do highly recommend imposing the requirement of apologizing for bad work behavior directed at particular people. When she made me apologize, it was way more effective than any spanking. Of course, to some extent that was because the person in question really was a dick, not just in my estimation but by common opinion. Having to apologize to someone I honestly didn't like and who had his own reputation for being difficult made it so much harder.
I have experienced similar "spillovers" in my behavior, though it kind of cuts both ways. I think I am less judgmental on the one hand, but actually a little bit more authoritarian at work. Or, at least, more direct. When you've asked someone to impose more rigorous control over you and to hold you accountable, you become more sensitive to your own failures when it comes to stating expectations clearly and dealing with issues directly instead of dancing around issues or just hoping bad performance will improve.
I may be mistaken, but Liz and Art’s DD relationship seems unique, focused on only one set of behaviors (his arrogance). If they care to share, it will be interesting if one or both of them eventually expand the scope of discipline to other areas. In my two DD relationships the initial emphasis was on two or three major areas though as I remember it there were other areas covered in our original agreements that were made “spankable” but rarely or never was I actually spanked for them. But over time both women more or less unilaterally expanded the scope of what was spankable. This was probably a result both of the high satisfaction both of us experienced from DD, but also that the original misbehavior targeted for correction, ended or was greatly reduced. I guess I assumed that was the normal pattern for other couples but maybe not. If anyone cares to comment about their own experiences with the scope of discipline expanding or not expanding, it would be very interesting.
DeleteAlan
Danielle here:
DeleteSomething Liz said resonated with me:
>>>I guess the main change in feelings for me is that I now feel I am his equal in the marriage. I have some recourse when he gets too arrogant. Before I felt like he controlled the marriage and there was nothing I could do when his attitude got the better of him.<<<
My situation with Wayne is quite different than Liz’s situation with Art because we have a full FLR, so I guess I have more power over Wayne than Liz has over Art. But in a strange way, I feel as though being Wayne’s boss has made me “his equal” in a way I wasn’t before FLR. I was not Wayne’s equal as a breadwinner. And when we argued, I felt frustrated by his stubbornness and, yes, arrogance. He also had a terrible habit of talking over me sometimes, and he didn’t even realize he did it. I used to get angry at him for that, and he would argue with me about it, telling me that I was being oversensitive. The harshest spankings I have ever given him have been for exactly that, and I have to say it felt wonderful to punish him for it, and especially to hear him admit to doing it and apologize for it after I had broken down his pride with the paddle or strap.
Because we have a full FLR, Wayne is subordinate to me in every way now, at least on the surface. But on a deeper level, I feel as though we are truly equals now, paradoxical as that might seem.
Hi Alan,
DeleteThat is pretty much what happened with my wife and I. Initially, we determined 3 behaviors for which she could/would punish but it soon turned into her being able to punish for whatever she deems appropriate.
I can't speak for others, but she was afraid of disturbing the power balance too much and somehow making her manly man no longer manly, so she got a lot of comfort out of keeping DD confined to a few behaviors. That was really a rationalization, as we were talking about last week. Once she saw that other than during punishments, during which she very much treats me as a little boy (and I sure feel that way), I was still her big, strong husband, who isn't afraid to be an adult and make decisions in life, all of her fears evaporated. As her fears dissipated, she no longer felt it necessary to constrain discipline to just a few things, but rather anything that bothered her.
-ZM
Hi ZM,
DeleteWhat you are saying about your wife’s evolving attitude toward DD after observing your response to it strikes me as very important to understand –maybe especially for wives like yours (and originally mine) who harbor doubts about DD fearing it harmful to their relationship or image of their husband as strong and decisive. The fact is that many of us (most I believe) can go seamlessly from a naughty little boy being punished to the fully functioning man and more that our wife married. In reality both are part of a complex human being with complex emotions. When that naughty little boy acts out with misbehavior and childishness, a wise wife restores the adult by imposing consequences on that behavior. Discipline itself from an adored wife supports a man’s manliness. It may sound wacky but it works and works well.
Danielle, you said: "But in a strange way, I feel as though being Wayne’s boss has made me “his equal” in a way I wasn’t before FLR." I totally get this, and it's a big part of our dynamic. From the very beginning, I've seen DD as being about bring balance to the relationship and, frankly, to our personalities. I share many of Wayne's tendencies, as you describe them. Arrogance, stubbornness, talking forcefully and intensely, etc. On the other hand, earlier in our marriage (and outside our marriage), my wife didn't stick up for herself with confidence and, instead, had a tendency to pout or flounce.
DeleteMy personality in particular just isn't well balanced. It's all yang and little yin. To correct something extreme sometimes requires over-compensating in the opposite direction. Making my wife the disciplinarian with total power in that realm both empowered her and disempowered me in a way that makes the combination more balanced. So, I totally get how making you Wayne's boss in effect made you his equal.
Hi Anonymous,
DeleteWhat you said seems to be exactly how it works - "When that naughty little boy acts out with misbehavior and childishness, a wise wife restores the adult by imposing consequences on that behavior. Discipline itself from an adored wife supports a man’s manliness." I think one of the key objections that wives might have to the concept of DD or FLR when it is first introduced to them is that somehow it might hurt their mental image of their husband. Most women, or at least many, seem to prefer kind of tough guys. I think for that reason, it probably helps if you are kind of a masculine guy, and that perhaps those who are not perceived as quite as manly might actually have a much harder finding someone who is willing to step into a dominant role with them.
Once the wife finds out that she can discipline her husband like a naughty child when he acts like one, and that it helps to return him to being the man she fell in love with and married, then that barrier just falls away. Then when she discovers that she can use it to her advantage sometimes, watch out!
And Dan, I think you said something a year or so back about men who seek DD might in fact be seeking it because of some underlying imbalance. I don't remember exactly what you said, but that was the idea. I know that I am certainly no model of being perfectly balanced...
-ZM
Dan,
ReplyDeleteI'm thinking about a response to certain bullet point items, and I'm thinking about Liz's item on acting "parental towards men who act childish" to see if I can add anything there. I do have a suggestion having to do with a future discussion topic about "real" disciplinary sessions and under what circumstances they might be disguised as a disciplinary "kink" sessions? Might a spouse want to indulge a partner's genuine interest in discipline and at the same time even up the score for something? I'm guessing it happens but I wonder what the mindset might be or how frequently it might occur.
Thanks,
LH
Hi LH. Can you flesh that out a little more? Probably not enough coffee this morning but I don't fully understand the topic suggestion
DeleteDan,
DeleteI'll try. I thought it might be interesting to know if anybody getting discipline for something serious might be instead getting sessions disguised as 'kink' to sort of let them let them save face/avoid being humiliated? I once read a supposedly true account of a woman punished over a couple of sessions for skimming money from her household budget to help a friend. Her husband found out and learned what she had done was well intended, though very dishonest. It made them short for money for lunch money and so on. He punished her harshly but set up in sort of a kinky fantasy way, instead of with criticisms and humiliating comments. She already knew what she had done was wrong and they were both into consensual discipline. Had she been honest and come to him in the first place he would have discussed helping her friend and she would have avoided spankings.
LH
I too was struggling to understand this when I read it earlier today, but now I totally get it. Though I don't think it has ever happened with my wife and I, I can see how it could. Maybe something would happen that really bugged her, but she doesn't want to make a big deal about it because she knows I feel really bad. So it would be possible that we might do some kinky play, and she uses the opportunity to vent all of her frustrations, all under the guise of play. That way, I wouldn't feel any worse than I already did (except my bottom of course), and she would have had a way to get rid of her accumulated feelings about something.
Delete-ZM
ZM,
DeleteI almost hate to make a comment because Dan seemed to hope for scaled back responses, but yes! That's what I meant. Maybe a man did something really bad (had an affair, got carried away and abused a spouse emotionally) and felt terrible remorse for it. To salvage his pride, discipline happens as "kink", but really it's punishment.
LH
I'm OK with responses on this one. I'd like to avoid them on the "maternal" topic suggestion question, to save it for next time.
DeleteI am a firm believer in this happening WAY more than anyone thinks or wants to admit to hence the cartoon on this page:
Deletehttp://mattmansfigures.homestead.com/cart90c.html
I KNOW this has happened to me on MANY occasions and I like that it does because it does allow for a direct/indirect solution to an issue.
I honestly don't think anything like that has happened with us. Even when she knows I feel really about something, that wouldn't stop her from spanking for it or making her feelings known about it in that way.
DeleteHi Dan,
ReplyDeleteResponding to your request for suggestions on a parental/maternal topic, one approach might be a two part question with the first exploring the influence if any of parental/maternal discipline you experienced with your present experience(s) with DD,For example do you see no connections,some connections ( positive or negative) or much connection ( again, positive or negative)the second part of the topic could explore your attitudes toward parental discipline today ( either personally or in general)and whether you think your own experiences with parental/maternal discipline influences your views today.I have gone through the thought process and it was revealing albeit paradoxical.
Alan
Hi Alan,
DeleteI personally wouldn't have much to say about actual parental discipline, since as I have related before, I think they were infrequent and generally not remembered. Nor do I have strong feelings about parental discipline today. Other people may well have much more vivid experiences and stronger feelings than I do.
For me, when I think of maternal, I don't necessarily think of anything involving mothers, and certainly not my mom! When I did a search for the meaning of
"maternal," what really resonated with me was not the definition itself, but rather the similar words: caring, nurturing, loving, devoted, affectionate, fond, warm, tender, gentle, kind, comforting, compassionate. All, or at least most, of these relate to a whole "style" of discipline. It is not some harsh mistress with no personal connection, or a heartless warden with anger issues, but rather firm yet loving discipline, meant to bring about positive change.
I don't really have any real clear "angles" to add on the maternal topic yet, but maybe some will come to me during the week. Right now, the best I can think of are:
- How do both parties feel about the maternal aspects of your DD/FLR relationship? For wives, do you feel like a mother with a bratty child when administering discipline? For husbands, do you feel like a naughty little boy?
- For wives: were you worried about "I want a husband, not another child?" After pursuing DD, have your feelings changed, and if so how?
- what things do you do to increase or decrease the maternal feelings of DD/FLR sessions?
- do you think a maternal style increases or decreases the effectiveness, compared to a more "detached" demeanor?
Maybe I will think of others during the week, but for now, even though the topic is quite fascinating, I just don't have any great ideas.
-ZM
I can't really relate to this week's topic in a way that puts me in agreement, or in a similar mindset, as the examples cited. I don't want "ultra-bitchy" at all! I had that in my prior marriage and it sucked. What I want is simply praise and recognition of the considerable amount I do, understanding in the case of disagreement, and punishment only when I have clearly overstepped boundaries in many of the ways others have mentioned. The thing is I don't often OVERSTEP boundaries. When I do fine. But when punishment is the reaction to some perception, interpretation, or mood-driven thing, I refuse to go along with it.
ReplyDeleteThe way I see it, is I have certain weaknesses in an otherwise pretty thick catalog of strengths. No-win situations are great in a play scenario, but I don't want to live feeling that way for real stuff. I guess I might be more open to criticism for borderline stuff if I was otherwise swimming in praise for all the good stuff.....just like I praise Rosa for the good stuff she does, and minimize her faults.
So I guess I already said more than I intended, but other than what I already wrote, I'm going to kind of pass on this one.
Hi KD,
DeleteIt seems like a lot of our feelings are conditioned by our experiences. As you said, you have experienced "ultra bitchy" in your previous marriage so have no desire to do that again. For me, my wife is about the easiest person on this planet to live with. She is smart, funny, loves to talk and listen, laughs a lot, cares a lot for others, works hard, never complains, if very fair, is logical (that is a huge one for me), is not overly emotional, but rather rational, and the list goes on with "ultra bitchy" not even being close to any of her normal traits. Also, I feel very loved, valued, and appreciated constantly.
So I think that sometimes, even when she does get irritated at little things, her deep sense of love and appreciation for me, together with her strong sense of fairness, make it a little difficult for her to bring herself to punish me and she would just as soon forgive and forget. Consequently, she could easily be talked out of it, and I am one to have a lot of reasons/excuses/rationalizations. So, what I was saying is that for me, when she decides to punish for something, she needs to step somewhat out of her normal self and become the person who will hear no excuses and punish me soundly, with no feelings of remorse. But that is just me, and it is only because it is so far apart from what she is normally like. If she were bitchy at other times, then being "ultra-bitchy" during a punishment would probably just cause resentment on my part.
-ZM
ZM: "even when she does get irritated at little things, her deep sense of love and appreciation for me, together with her strong sense of fairness, make it a little difficult for her to bring herself to punish me and she would just as soon forgive and forget. Consequently, she could easily be talked out of it, and I am one to have a lot of reasons/excuses/rationalizations."
DeleteThat is true to our dynamic as well.
KD: I can see how having someone who was "ultra-bitchy" on a daily basis could color your whole view going forward. My situation has always been more like ZM's -- a normally nice wife who probably lets me talk her out of too many things because of her innate sense of kindness.
DeleteBut, an area in which our personalities or needs seem to differ is the praise thing. I don't really need or want it. To the extent I react to it at all (is indifference a reaction, or the antithesis of one), it's with embarrassment.
Hi Dan and KD. Like Dan, I don't really enjoy praise; it makes me feel very awkward and embarrassed. However, I feel very appreciated in every part of my life - by my company/coworkers, by my wife, by my kids, by society in general, etc. Since I already feel appreciated, I don't like or want or need verbal praise and in fact dislike it, especially if it is excessive. On the other hand, nobody likes to feel unappreciated or underappreciated. If I found myself in that situation, I too might wish that just once those around me would recognize all that I do.
Delete-ZM
-ZM
Dan & ZM: In reading the similarities of your experience and situations, it makes more sense to me why you feel as you do. I recall someone from my past who fit that category and in thinking back, I had wishes she would be more aggressive too.
DeleteAs for praise? Well, if it's false, excessive, sycophantic, obligatory, or manipulative, I don't like it either and often feel like those are the more common varieties. And maybe 'praise' is too strong a word because the one you've used "appreciation" seems just fine for me. And i think it's that balance between reward and punishment that is lacking right now......but didn't used to be. Maybe that's why I'm more resistant that I used to be to the latter. Perhaps if there were more rewards, considering the amount I do well, I'd be more receptive to the occasional punishment, even is as you said, it might not seem 'fair'. The balance would apportion its own relative 'fairness'.
"As for praise? Well, if it's false, excessive, sycophantic, obligatory, or manipulative, I don't like it either and often feel like those are the more common varieties." This is why I don't deal well with many Millennials. They were raised on a steady diet of being praised for tying their shoes or coming in second-to-last in a race. And, we've now designed whole programs at work around feeding that need for unearned affirmation.
DeleteThis probably doesn't speak well of my as a person, but I just don't feel much need for external affirmation, whether it's labeled praise or appreciation. I generally know whether I'm doing what I should be doing and when I'm not, and I don't really need or want "attaboys." That's probably a form of arrogance, but I can live with it.
Now, there have been a few times when one our kids left me a note thanking me for something I did for them in a really sincere and heartwarming way, and I did appreciate and enjoy that. But, it's not something I need, and definitely not as kind of a ledger entry balancing out reward and punishment.
That's not to say that I won't get mad when I feel like I've busted my ass or put my credibility on the line to support someone only to have them do something that reflects a basic lack of courtesy or respect. I can get pretty pissed off at people I see as ingrates.
So, given that I do react that way, maybe it's not that we are wired fundamentally differently on these things but that we label or process them in different ways? I guess the relevant dividing line for me is I don't need or want praise, but I can appreciate it from time to time and I can react negatively if I feel like someone has turned on me after I've done something for them. And, honestly, none of that applies in my marriage. It's more of a career thing or in other personal relations. I honestly feel no need at all for overt praise or affirmation from my wife or my kids, though like I said, the appreciative birthday card or note can give me the warm and fuzzies. I guess maybe the difference is, in fact, what ZM expresed: there's a difference between wanting/needing and appreciating.
Wanting or needing, or appreciating. ....Hmmmmm, Perhaps praise, recognition, etc, is akin to sex? When you're getting it regularly, you don't understand the lengths that others will go to to get even a piece of it. And you look at the phony, contrived sex people are willing to settle for and really wince. You think, "yeah, it's nice, but, it's not everything. Why the obsession?" Only when it's eliminated or reduced drastically does one think, "whoa! I really miss that!" ;-)
DeleteMaybe, though some need it once a day, some once a month, some a couple of times a year, and some say, "I'm just fine masturbating." :-)
DeleteWell you know I can't masturbate, so there you go! LOL
DeleteI don't get the whole discipline during kink thing. To me if it's link it's not discipline. For my wife spanking is kink during foreplay. For me it's discipline. If it was sexy it wouldn't feel like it to me.
ReplyDeleteMy wife also is a very sweet person. Too sweet. She put up with too much from me but I did not realize it until she took the kids and left. That was the imposed wakeup call that I needed. I realized I had to change. The DD is just methodology. So I would say that she truly did impose on me: change or lose your family. Can anyone impose anything stronger?
DD is a powerful dose of humility. The pain itself is humbling. So is the ritual of having to accept it. And so is having to accept it from my wife. These three combine to temporarily impose on me the humility that I don't seem to have within. Then a few days later I get it imposed again.
Arthur
I used to agree with the observations in your first paragraph,though I've kind of come around to ZM's way of see things, i.e. that there is an erotic energy that drives discipline for both of us and that makes it the tool we choose to address behavior issues. God knows there are lots of other ways couples deal with those things, like leaving as Liz did temporarily. Yelling, fighting, flouncing, pouting, withholding sex, sleeping on the couch, having affairs. All very well-used tools for relationship management. One could probably argue that one or two of them, like withholding sex, could be effective at bringing about change. Yet, spanking is the one we for some reason chose and gravitated to.
DeleteLike you and Liz, we don't do spankings that aren't disciplinary, but I do think the kink and erotic aspects are part of what drives my interest in it. But, I also get how for someone like you it could be purely a behavior modification tool with no underlying erotic current. My guess is that makes you an outlier among people doing DD, but so what? Whatever works, works, and we don't have to get there for identical reasons.
Dan,
DeleteSpanking without the kink can probably be an effective behavior modification tool but for me and probably most,it is the erotic kink that motivates me to take the spanking that modifies my behavior.So I agree strongly with you and ZM and others who have described it. Without the kink I don't think I would submit to her authority. But she knows how to press all my buttons that eroticize the concept of spanking ( I have told her all of them long ago)So it is that erotic charge ( that can be quite powerful)that takes us to the point where her strap or paddle are repeatedly connecting with my bare bum, administering real punishment and ( at least some of the time) real behavior change. But it just would not happen without that erotic charge being there,
Alan
Danielle here:
DeleteArthur wrote, “I don't get the whole discipline during kink thing. To me if it's link it's not discipline.”
Though I acknowledge the difference between an erotic play spanking and a real punishment spanking, I don’t think spanking can ever be non-kinky for my husband. He has an impressive collection of F/M spanking images, and he has confessed to masturbating to most of those images. And his favorite ones are in a sub-folder titled “Real Punishment”. Those images all show women who appear to be angry, often scolding, harshly spanking men who appear to be in real distress from the pain. So when I give him a “real punishment spanking”, I know I am enacting out his most potent masturbation fantasy.
I know some women say that in a “true FLR” the woman shouldn’t use spanking as discipline if the man has a spanking kink. I disagree with that. I agree with Alan that my husband’s kink is the thing that enables me to control and discipline him in ways that are real. As I’ve said before, I often couple a spanking with some less obviously sexual form of discipline, such as taking away privileges, imposing extra chores, grounding him, or reducing his “allowance.” I like that I can discipline him in ways that I see fit, and that are less obviously kinky, but I seriously doubt he would submit to any of those things if not for his spanking kink as a foundation to build on. Mind you, I know he has now eroticized all those other forms of discipline and control too. His collection of images also as a sub-file called “domestic servitude” which shows men doing housework in the presence of women who are either giving them instructions or enjoying some leisure activity like reading or watching TV. Strange as it may seem, he has confessed to masturbating to images like that too. That has been useful information for me because I don’t feel guilty about the “unfairness” of our FLR, knowing that unfairness is part of the kinky craving that gives me real power over him.
"That has been useful information for me because I don’t feel guilty about the “unfairness” of our FLR, knowing that unfairness is part of the kinky craving that gives me real power over him."
DeleteThat's a really, really good point.
Danielle gets it -she really gets it. I think Wayne already knows this, but to paraphrase my former girlfriend's frequent preface to spanking me "(she) owns his ass"
DeleteAlan
Alan: "She owns his ass." Really? You do know ownership entitles the owner to pretty much carte blanche when it comes down to stuff? Still think she "owns" it? Or is it more of a mutual understanding with certain limitations and mutual goals?
DeleteDanielle: You know I like you in that sort of online camaraderie sort of way, but LOL, can I be you? You're the David Watts of spanking! LOL ;-)
Beyond the experience of spanking discipline from parents years ago, the only way I can relate to all these ideas about actual authority vs role-playing, consent vs non-consent, imposition of consequences and the not wanting it but being disappointed if it doesn’t happen, what the disciplinarian gets out of it, what she really wants from a male or “manly” partner, her superiority or equality, and what have you, is through my own fantasies.
DeleteWhat I’ve always wanted to imagine is a female who does have real authority over me. I don’t ask her to be a disciplinarian, she just is. She wants it that way, and she likes it that way. She is naturally dominant, and when she punishes in a fair and reasonable way, it is her strength that I find so attractive. How she expresses that strength through parental modeled discipline matches my desires. Despite appearances, she respects me even when the parent/child model and hierarchy is most in evidence, and causes me the deepest feelings of humility.
That’s the fantasy, but how, in real life, can a wife impose her will like that? If I don’t in the moment want a punishment imposed on me, or don’t feel it’s fair, what forces me to submit? I’m not even a submissive personality to begin with. If she isn’t strong and confident, and determined, I’m confident I can get out of trouble without the consequences that I like to imagine. If I do decide to take the punishment, am I not the one still in control? Am I only submitting because I want the FLR game to continue? What is putting me in that position I fantasize about, where I have no better choice than to accept her discipline, where she can exercise a real parental role? What is the actual basis for a “true FLR,” and does it require a husband who submits for her benefit rather than to fulfill his own needs or kinky desires?
Alan, when you say I “own my husband’s ass,” that is true in the light hearted way I think you intended it. But KD is also right that I don’t really “own” him in a master/slave way. As KD puts it very well, our FLR is “a mutual understanding with certain limitations and mutual goals.”
DeleteKD, I don’t understand your comment that I am “the David Watts of spanking.” I googled David Watts and found references to several different David Watts, but I wasn’t able to figure out the meaning of your allusion.
Brett, I don’t think “true FLR” is possible if you question it as deeply as you do. You ask whether it requires “a husband who submits for her benefit rather than to fulfill his own needs or kinky desires.” I don’t think it can be an either/or. It has to be both. Without my husband's masochistic/submissive kinks, our FLR would not be possible. He is getting something he craves. But without real benefits for me, it would be pointless.
Danielle
Brett, I agree with Danielle. For many or most of us (KD as a very prominent exception) this sentence from your comment is the ideal: "What I’ve always wanted to imagine is a female who does have real authority over me. I don’t ask her to be a disciplinarian, she just is. She wants it that way, and she likes it that way." For many of us, the ideal is discipline and authority that is real as evidenced by the fact that it is imposed whether we like it or not. But, your third paragraph reflects the reality that even if one finds that "naturally dominant" partner, some element of consent is always there in the moment. On a practical level, it just is even if you wish it wasn't. I agree with Danielle that none of these relationships work unless *both* parties are getting something they need out of it, and for many the underlying kink leads to submitting to something you have the physical power to resist. But, I also think Alan is right when he's said (not in response to this topic but in others recently) that some can reach a point where even if they have the physical capacity to resist a punishment they don't agree with or aren't "in the mood" for, they won't because they psychologically have reached a point where they don't feel like they can resist. And, is that really so strange a concept? In the end, don't most of us take orders from bosses who lack any real physical power over us and may have limited real authority? In the military, does the drill sergeant get submission from the recruits because he's stronger or such a superior fighter (ala Clint Eastwood in Heartbreak Ridge) that he can physically force them to do what he wants, or is it rather that the force of his personality makes non-compliance a non-option for many? It's a funny thing how people respond to a leaders who acts in a way that makes it seem as if not complying just isn't an option.
DeleteDanielle,
DeleteYou are correct. The “master-slave” thing doesn’t resonate with me in any way. What I meant or more to the point what I think my former girlfriend meant was that she had full authority to discipline me when and where she felt it was needed because I had agreed to it, in fact asked her to do it. With her the expression “own your ass” often meant she had reached the decision to spank me immediately or as soon as practical
Alan
Dan and Danielle,
DeleteYes, I think you’re right that it must be consensual, and both partners have to get something out of it. My problem, if we want to call it that, is a matter of there needing to be some form of real authority there. A boss is really a boss, so if it was legal for them to punish as they see fit, that would be compelling to me. In the military, there is a hierarchy there that requires some obedience so, again, any legitimate punishment meets my threshold for feeling submission is required rather than just my desire to submit. So is there any way for a wife to have the authority of a parent simply because she insists she has that authority? That is my fantasy. The closest I can imagine is that at least it is her idea to be the disciplinarian, and I submit because she demands it. In a way, that is close to the parental model. When I was mature enough, and physically strong enough, to resist my parent’s discipline, I did not resist. As you said, psychologically, I did not feel I could resist.
I agree with Danielle -- I think you're insisting that the authority is real only if there is no consent at all involved. Literally, that's true, but does it really fit reality? As you said, there are (or used to be) boys who were spanked even after they reached an age that they could physically resist. So, was the authority imposed on them unreal just because the recipient had the physical power to resist. Conversely, you say that "a boss is really a boss." In what sense? If I am insubordinate at work will my "boss" fire me? Probably not. If she did, so what? And, if she pisses me off, I can always just walk out. My chain-of-commands' toolkit for "punishing" me is pretty limited, and I don't respect any of their authority more than I respect my wife's. If one of them chastises me for some misbehavior, I'll take it to heart if I agree with them that I was in the wrong. But, in the end, their authority is exercised almost entirely through words, and they don't have much they can do beyond griping at me (which I can take or leave), reduce my pay (which I can accept or leave, probably for a job that will pay more anyway), or fire me (which is both a very blunt instrument and one that is meaningful only if I don't have other, better options.) So, who has more "real" authority, a boss that I could tell to fuck off any time, or I wife who I granted authority to once and now am very unlikely to disobey?
DeleteI’m talking theoretically. If it was legal for a boss to spank an employee, then that would fit my fantasy. If this were reality, unless I respected the boss, I would just tell them to shove it. But if there was a mutual respect, I would want to submit to her, and it would feel to me like authentic discipline. I respect my wife totally, more than any possible authority, but if I have to go to her and say, if I do something you don’t like or feel is bad for me, then please punish me, then that is different and doesn’t fulfill my desire. Whether that makes sense or not in the real world, it’s what drives my interest in what is being called FLR.
DeleteDanielle,
Delete"I wish I could be like David Watts" is a line from an obscure 60s song by the band The Kinks (as in this kink we do).
Brett: Unfortunately, I think you're describing the reality that exists for anyone who has a thing for imposed discipline. In the end *all* these relationships (even the dominant female who "just is" dominant) are consensual and on some level none of it is imposed, because we all have the physical ability to resist and the volitional capacity to walk out. Absent true non-consent to the whole thing (otherwise known as assault and battery), there is always going to be that element of consent that makes not truly "imposed" in any literal sense. Yet, you're right that the fantasy is a wife who initiates the whole DD relationship, because she wants to. Unfortunately, my guess is may one in 50 relationships might fall into that category, at most. Yet, it is that fantasy that hooks us. As most know, I really credit the Disciplinary Wives Club site for hooking me on DD with its realistic depictions of corporal punishment within in real marriages, yet the one area in which it is not real is a very large proportion of the stories involved the wives initiating the disciplinary relationship.
DeleteWhat I'm more confused about is why the boss relationship does fuel for fantasies if (a) they could spank; and (b) there is mutual respect. I still don't see how that is really different than a wife who is empowered to spank. Is it because in the work fantasy the boss is the one initiating it?
You men should not underestimate the impact of your willingness to be punished by a wife who is not as strong as you. This shows a high level of trust and obedience that is extremely important to a disciplinary wife. So while it may not meet your fantasy of forced punishment, it is crucial to the disciplinary wife that you do not use your physical strength to avoid what she imposes.
DeleteI trust my husband more, believe in my husband more, appreciate my husband more since he began willingly bending over the desk.
Liz
Hi Liz. I don't have any doubt about that. I think my wife had doubts on two levels for several years. First, I think she did have some nagging doubt that I would at some point physically resist or just refuse to cooperate, even though I never did. Second, I know she had trouble with both DD and FLR rooted in nagging doubts around, "He *says* he wants this, but does he really, because why would anyone want it?" I think the first one (that I might physically resist) has diminished or gone away over time. The second was almost "cured" after she read The Hesitant Mistress, though I'm still not sure what exactly about that book made her more confident that I "really do want this."
DeleteDan: I’ve read where women have rape fantasies, but they would not want to actually be raped. Maybe that is similar to my feelings, though I always imagine the spanker as having benevolent disciplinary motivation along with her pleasure in the dynamic of punishment. The only way I could imagine accepting truly imposed punishment without my consent would be if the disciplinarian had some form of authority where it is not assault and battery. She is no criminal, quite the opposite. That is what I was referring to with the boss relationship. Of course, that condition doesn’t exist in real life, but the difference there is that she would be acting from a position of legitimately recognized power that was not given to her by me. I think that is what makes it parental in nature. I didn’t ask to be in a family where such punishments are given, but this is my family, so I must accept the consequences.
DeleteI think you’re absolutely right that it is quite rare for a wife to initiate a disciplinary relationship (unless she is the one to be disciplined.) And if she doesn’t do it with consent, then it is domestic abuse. She loses her credibility as a leader if her own ethics are in question. There must be consent, so it’s really about attitude. If she came to me and explained how she needed to be the leader in the relationship, that her authority would have to be real and respected, and that under our agreement she would implement discipline in the home in a parental fashion, then I think I’m hooked. That must be about as close as I could get to what I like to imagine, but I can’t say for sure how I would live with it.
Danielle here:
DeleteI just want to second Liz’s comment about the importance to us wives of our husbands’ willingness to submit to punishment at our hands, even though they are bigger than us. It is a demonstration of “trust and obedience” that increases our trust and appreciation of them, as Liz says.
Brett, I don’t see why DD or FLR would have to be initiated by the wife to be real. I took up the hairbrush reluctantly at first at Wayne’s request, but once I did, believe me, I did so for real. What difference does it make that beginning a FLR was Wayne’s idea. Now that we have a FLR, I feel that I am in control of it. It is true that Wayne could use his superior physical strength to defy me and withdraw his consent at any time, but I know he would not do that without very good reason. I know because we have made a commitment to one another, an extension of our original marriage vows. I vowed to give him the guidance and discipline he asked for, and he vowed “to honor and obey” me. So as I see it, the thing that makes it real is his sense of honor.
Danielle, I wasn’t saying or implying that what works for other people isn’t real. I’m only saying that real parental authority is not initiated by the child. That has been my interest most of my life. I wouldn’t ask my wife to be the household leader or disciplinarian. It wouldn’t work for me that way. What works for you and Wayne is great, and I think from what you describe, you make an excellent FLR. I can admire it, and I can draw parallels to the kind of relationship that attracts me to FLR, but I don’t see it happening for me unless my wife initiated it.
DeleteDanielle, I wasn’t saying or implying that what works for other people isn’t real. I’m only saying that real parental authority is not initiated by the child. That has been my interest most of my life. I wouldn’t ask my wife to be the household leader or disciplinarian. It wouldn’t work for me that way. What works for you and Wayne is great, and I think from what you describe, you make an excellent FLR. I can admire it, and I can draw parallels to the kind of relationship that attracts me to FLR, but I don’t see it happening for me unless my wife initiated it.
DeleteDan,
ReplyDeleteAnother idea for a future topic would be if any disciplinarian spouses ever used the promise of a kinky scene or two to get a submissive spouse to do something or accomplish something? I guess it like a reward.
I almost forgot this - maybe it's a good example: When our children were fully grown but not yet out of the house my wife and I had purchased a home in the mountains (the home was very reasonable because of the bad economy in the mid-2000s.). I was dragging my feet as far as getting the house set up the way we wanted it, and my wife sort of hinted that since we had additional privacy she'd probably have to start cutting switches because we're in the woods. I got the message and never worked so fast. I took an extra week off for painting and some light work so we could get furniture delivered.
LH
Reducing this topic to its essentials, the question seems to be whether women have promise or hint you'll get sex if you do something for them. Somehow I suspect the honest answer is "yes." :-)
Deleteexcept in the context of DD in a long term relationship it is less transactional and more transformative
DeleteAlan
Dan,
DeleteThat would cover it.
LH
I do get the kink aspect of spanking and punishment, but Art definitely doesn't. I have asked him if it turns him on to spank me as foreplay, and he says seeing my bare bottom wriggling around is a turnon, but not the spanking aspect of it.
ReplyDeleteFor him it is pure punishment and behavior modification, and I respect that. And though I like my newfound authority, it does not turn me on to paddle him. Nor do I get turned on by being punished. But I do from erotic spanking. Chacun a son gout!
Luz
I'm with Art on that one. Whatever the erotic quality of a punishment spanking is, it runs only one way for me. I have absolutely no desire to physically punish anyone else.
DeleteRelationships vary so much and change over the years. My discipline began as playful spankings that were part of foreplay scenarios after my wife and I dated for a very long time. My wife found I had a mild kink for it and we both enjoyed it. Then, over the years, discipline became somewhat separate from foreplay. Today we can have a scene where it could be one (play) or the other (discipline). One thing my wife does not like is if I misbehave intentionally. That is not rewarded in a pleasant way. She sees through it. Perhaps things change as we become less older and our inhibitions change.
ReplyDeleteLH
I meant:
ReplyDeletePerhaps things change as we become older and our inhibitions change.
LH
It's certainly possible. I don't have any real explanation for why disciplinary spanking seems to be more of a middle-age thing, so maybe we become less inhibited with our stable partners? I don't think a general decrease in our level of inhibitions would have much grounding in science -- I think most teenager and young adult brains are much less inhibited than the brain of your average 40 or 50 year-old.
DeleteDan,
Delete"I don't have any real explanation for why disciplinary spanking seems to be more of a middle-age thing, so maybe we become less inhibited with our stable partners?"
It must be that inhibitions decrease. And, it could also have something to do with second marriages or new relationships when people are older and then want to try new things.
Carol and I are different. We married young and had fun before we had a family. She ruled the roost but never intensely like what you read. And, we had our family young. Once privacy got limited we put all that on the back burner and set a good example for them, even if it sounds corny. It was easy, we were busy. Our nest became empty when both our kids got good jobs after finishing school. It didn't take long before our inhibitions dropped again. “Yes Ma’am(s)” and discipline tools were back, even a CB. Our philosophy now is 'You only live once. Don't bother anyone and have fun.'
LH
Dan wrote:
Delete>>>I don't think a general decrease in our level of inhibitions would have much grounding in science -- I think most teenager and young adult brains are much less inhibited than the brain of your average 40 or 50 year-old.<<<
I think you are right that teenagers are less inhibited when it comes to acting impulsively or taking foolish risks. But I think there is a way in which we become less inhibited with age. Actually, maybe what I am about to say is gender specific. I think many of us women become less inhibited with age in the sense that we tend to outgrow the limitations of internalized social constraints. As a young woman I was much more constrained by my sense of gender roles. I would have said that a man who needs maternal style discipline from his wife is unmanly, and that would have put me off. I was also inhibited about being “bitchy”. But by the time Wayne and I began a FLR after many years of vanilla marriage, I no longer felt that I needed my husband to be a “manly man” all the time. I could still love and respect him even after taking him over my knee like a naughty little boy, or making him wear panties and a frilly apron. I could have fun with things that would have turned me off at one time. And I didn’t feel as though I needed to be “a nice girl” anymore.
Danielle
Great points, Danielle, especially about not needing to be "a nice girl" anymore." I totally get what you're saying about inhibition possibly being gender specific. I don't think that my wife had internalized social constraints around gender roles with respect to "manliness," but she definitely had concerns about being "bitchy." I think she also had internalized a lot of traditional "values" around the man of the family making most of the decisions. Her mother and father were models of the traditional 1950s model in which he did whatever he wanted and, if she didn't like it she'd sleep on the couch for weeks at a time, give him the silent treatment, etc. We had dinners with them when we were newlyweds in which they would each talk to us but not say a word to each other, because they were in one of their "silent treatment" passive aggressive pissing contests. In writing this, it suddenly occurs to me why DD may have been so attractive to her, because it was such a contrast to the dysfunctional way her parents dealt with conflict.
DeleteDanielle,
DeleteMy question is do you think it age and maturity that loosens the strictures of culturally determined roles and value - or is it that gender roles and values have changed dramatically in our lifetimes.Of course it could be both or the interaction of both, but I am seeking your personal judgement which has most influenced you.Incidentally I don't believe what you are reporting is rare in modern times but wonder if previous generations also experienced it.
Alan
Alan, that’s an excellent question. To be honest, I’m not sure whether the changes in me are due more to “age and maturity” or the evolution of gender roles during our lifetime. I think maybe it is a bit of both. But for me, it is probably the former more than the latter. I say that because I don’t think it was just my acceptance of traditional gender roles that made me freak out the first time my husband ask for FLR, several years before we finally tried it. I think when I was a young woman, I didn’t find the idea of masculine submissiveness attractive at all. And I don’t think that has changed much in our culture today. Has there ever been a romance novel or a chick flick where the heroine falls for a guy who wants to be ordered around and disciplined? I don’t think so. That’s not what women fantasize about. If anything, we women fantasize about dominant men. That’s why romance novels sometimes have spanking scenes, but they are always M/f spankings. So I am going to say that the sexual flexibility that enabled me to become a dominant wife who can not only accept my husband as he is, but derive unexpected sexual pleasure from our power exchange, that definitely came with age. But I don’t know, maybe nowadays there are young women who don’t have the sexual inhibitions about female dominance and male submissiveness that I used to have? Or about kink in general? It’s a kinkier world than it used to be, isn’t it?
DeleteDanielle
Danielle,
DeleteThanks for a thoughtful and thought provoking response to my question. Age and maturity together with the experience they bring explain a lot of evolving behavior and that includes relationships and attitudes about dominance and submission. The enormous change in gender roles and expectations in the last century must provide support and reinforcement for any woman who expresses dominance and aggressiveness but I agree that female preference for dominant males has probably not changed much. Biology trumps culture on that one. But as you have written , women who dabble with dominance often discover men are usually not either dominant or submissive but a complex mix of both –able to summit to the authority of one woman’s discipline while equally capable of being assertive in other areas of that relationship and life in general. Young women today, freed of so much early inhibitions might be discovering that earlier. Certainly as you imply, their generation is more comfortable with kink. Whether that is producing more FLR or DD relationships earlier is a great question I hope someone is researching
Dan said "But so what? Whatever works, works, and we don't have to get there for identical reasons." I am jumping up and down with enthusiastic agreement.
ReplyDeleteI'd join you in jumping up and down, but the way things seem to be going these days I'd probably hurt myself.
DeleteDan
DeleteAgreed. Lowered inhibitions have little to do with it. Maturity and time however explains a lot. The spanking interest only gets stronger as we mature, particularly if it is repressed for a while which seems common.As Maslow proposed, we all seek "self actualization" and if you re a spanko a part of that is expressing your spanking persona.
Alan
Hi Dan, on this weeks topic, imposed consequences, even though it is near and dear to my heart, and cuts to the very core of all of my DD desires, I simply can't think of much to add that I haven't already said many times before, at least related directly to DD.
ReplyDeleteI was thinking about your work example and how your mixed feelings when your superiors overlooked you not really achieving all that had been possible this year, and how you felt both relieved and disappointed when there was no punishment. I think for me, it totally depends on the situation. With my wife (so DD related things), then I inevitably want to avoid or delay punishment, but in every case, 100% of the time, if I do dodge the bullet I feel bad about it and wish it had happened. Also, most times, but not every time, even though I can't wait for a punishment to end, no matter who severe it was I end up wishing it had been harder or longer afterwards.
On the other hand, I can never think of a time that I have been even remotely close to disappointed if I happen to slow down just at the right time and don't get caught for speeding. Nor have I gotten a ticket and later wished it had been higher. I think maybe a lot of it has more to do with whether I support the rightness of the underlying principle, and also a lot of it has to do with the fact that it is some policeman who I don't even know and who cares nothing for me, and quite often acts like an arrogant prick. Whereas with my wife, we know each other very well, and she loves me very much. Whatever she may choose to do to punish me, I can know she is thinking also about my good. The intimacy and love between the disciplinarian and the one being disciplined is a critical distinctive of DD/FLR, compared to many other types of discipline. Hmmmm.... It seems like that ties in pretty well with the list of attributes I wrote above for "maternal."
-ZM
Good point regarding getting pulled over by the police. Yeah, I've never once regretted getting away with something in that context.
Delete