Saturday, February 8, 2020

The Club - Meeting 330

“The more a daughter knows the details of her mother's life [...] the stronger the daughter.” - Anita Diamant, The Red Tent.

Hello all.  Welcome back to the Disciplinary Couples Club.  Our weekly gathering of men and women who are in, or would like to be in, Domestic Discipline relationships. 

For me, it was a pretty rough one.  January got off to such a good start, but it just fizzled.  I feel like I’ve taken steps backward on so many fronts, some my fault but some less so. A physical injury keeps getting in the way of any aggressive exercise routine, and it’s starting to become a major distraction.  I had a work event that turned into a much—too—late evening affair.  We also had some other things going on that, in conjunction with the injury issue, kept me from catching up on any rest as we hit week’s end. I hate it when I feel more draggy and exhausted on a Saturday morning than I was on Friday. That was par for the course in 2019, but I was hoping for better in 2020.  Oh well.  Best laid plans, and all that.
There was one thing that happened at work that almost made the whole week worthwhile.  As I’ve noted on here a couple of times, I wear a  choker with a pendant that symbolizes a submissive male in BDSM circles. I spent quite a bit of time shopping on-line for it and, in the process, I became at least somewhat attuned to some of the more common designs for submissive “day collars," i.e. inconspicuous necklaces and chokers that symbolize a BDSM slave/submissive collar.  Well, yesterday a work colleague, who works in another office, was visiting my office and stopped in to talk. Near the end of the conversation, it finally hit me that she was wearing a slave collar.  Perfect circle in the middle of a cloth choker.  Had I noticed it earlier in the conversation and had time to process the realization, I might have commented with a benign “nice necklace” or something. Could have been fun watching her reaction.


Another thing we’re struggling with is alone time.  We just haven’t had much lately, and it definitely has put a major crimp into our plans to crank up the DD and FLR aspects of our relationship.  Though, as I’ve noted before, restraining DD and FLR activities is a choice, not an inevitability.  KD is very open about those aspects of his relationship with Rosa.  ZM and I (or our wives) have been much more inhibited.  Danielle noted last week that she has a grown son in the house and has decided to put her arrangement with Wayne out in the open, and at last report she was thinking through when and how to make it more visible. 

KD does seem to be the rare exception in which the DD relationship is pretty much fully out there, at least within the family.  And, in the seven years I’ve been doing this blog, there have been only a handful of commenters who have said that they knew growing up that their father was subject to domestic discipline, and those seemed to involve a more or less passive understanding of the situation. There was no open discussion about it, rather, it was just kind of in the background.  One of the rare examples was Holly, who recounted how she “learned” about Domestic Discipline:

"There wasn’t any time I wasn’t aware of domestic discipline. Mom spanked our dad, never in front of us, but when she took him into the bedroom there was no doubt what was going on and anyone in the house could hear it. I didn’t think much of it except that mom was definitely in charge, which everyone knew anyway."


Later, after her young and immature husband started acting up, her mother openly advocated that she should take up the paddle or strap. She resisted at first because she thought her mother had been too ready to spank for every offense, but she came around as her husband’s behavior worsened.  While she was also one of the seemingly rare examples in which the wife instigated the DD relationship, she had reason to believe her husband would accept it and might even want it.

“I knew it was real from the first spanking I administered because I knew men can be managed with a strap if a woman is determined. I had also suspected for a while my husband wanted this. Our dating relationship really became serious when he found out my father was punished. He never directly asked me to take control, but I was certain he would accept it, and I was right since I received no resistance when I told him what was coming. Also, the way he stripped and presented his ass to me on command convinced me I was right.”


So, Holly was the rare woman who observed (or overheard) her mother spanking her father, who had discussions about it with her mother about it at an appropriate time in life, went on to tell her future husband about it, and then went on to have a Domestic Discipline relationship herself. 

The last time we devoted a whole topic to this was back in 2017. Since I’m feeling uninspired today, I’ll repeat some of that post here, but I’ll also try to add some more detailed questions and recent observations.

We have talked several times about how to work in DD around the presence of kids in the household, and we've shared ideas about how to mete out well-deserved discipline without the kids overhearing.  But, what about once they are grown, or at least young adults?  Is the DD or FLR side of your relationship something that should be kept from them once they are off on their own?  Or, was Holly’s mom right to be relatively open about being in charge and disciplining the father, culminating in the mother openly advocating that Holly take up the paddle.

Based on seven years of talking from time to time about what kids do know or should know, it seems like most of us are reluctant to share this part of our life with anyone.  But, why is that the case once our kids become adults and move onto their own relationships? Aren’t we supposed to try to give our kids the benefit of our parental wisdom?  If you think DD is something that help’s  your own marriage, or if you think it helps your own performance or your mental/emotional wellbeing, shouldn’t you share that with your adult kids for their own potential benefit? 


Those benefits could take a lot of forms.  Perhaps, like Holly’s mother, you have a daughter who needs to take charge of her own ill-behaved husband?  Or, or maybe your darling son (or daughter) is having a hard time growing up or otherwise could profit from being on the receiving end of the marital paddle or strap? So, isn't that something we would want for our adult kids as they move out into the world and experience their own inevitable marital and personal challenges? Even if we thought it was something that needed to be kept private while they were growing up, do those same concerns still apply later in life?


I once just sort of assumed this is a private activity and should be kept that way.  But, my views have evolved over time.  As I said in response to a comment from Danielle two posts back, I've pretty much decided that, now that they are (young) adults, I am OK with them know everything at a general level, whether about the disciplinary spankings or about our blooming FLR, or both. As for what they actually do know, to the best of my knowledge they don't know about the spanking part. At least that’s my wife’s view. But, I do have my doubts. A spanking could have been overheard at some point, or they could have seen a paddle or strap that wasn’t locked away. As for the FLR, they have noticed my wife's more assertive role in the last couple of years, and one of them has noted her bossiness. They have told my wife that she seems to "wear the pants" and she doesn't deny it. But, I don't think she has taken it any further than to tell them that I like her making more decisions because I have so much responsibility at work and, therefore, want to have less responsibility at home. Or, words to that effect. 

 
Honestly, I don't know how open we eventually will be. As I've said, I've decided that I'm OK with them knowing everything, though I don't have any desire to talk to them about it. It's really my wife who is reluctant to let them know more, and I'm not totally sure why. I think it would be empowering for her, and possibly a growth thing for them, if they saw an example of a woman being fully and openly in charge at home.  Our 2017 topic addressed this.  I noted at that time a quote that had caught my attention: 
 
“Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. Your playing small does not serve the world. There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you.”

While I didn’t note it at the time, the quote was from Marianne Williamson, who later threw her hat in the ring for President of the United States.  When our DD and FLR wives hide the strongest part of themselves aren’t they “shrinking so that others won’t feel insecure. 


 As I said, we addressed this topic back in 2017, but we’ve added several commenters—including two or three Disciplinary Wives—since then, and others’ views may have evolved during that time.  So, here are some specific questions, but please feel free to add your own thoughts, observations and experiences:
  • Were either of your own parents disciplined by the other parent when you were growing up? 
  • Are your kids aware of you disciplinary relationship? 
  • For those of you who are in an FLR, are your kids aware that the wife is the leader in the marriage? 
  • Have you ever spanked or been spanked by your spouse while the kids were in the house or might overhear? 
  • If your kids are not, to your knowledge, currently aware of your DD or FLR relationship, might you tell them or let them find out about it in the future? Why or why not?   
  • Does their gender effect your view in any way?  If your daughter married a man with maturity or performance problems, would you pass along some helpful hints that maybe she should educate herself about DD?  What if you had an immature or misbehaving son? Would you ever suggest to him (or to his frustrated daughter-in-law) that maybe disciplinary spankings could give him the structure and boundaries he seems to need?
I hope you all have a great week.

76 comments:

  1. I can only answer the first question... I do not thing either of my parents disciplined the other. All the other questions deal with kids. I have none and my Dominant partner only had one son who was long gone prior to our involvement. However, I would like to comment on a point you brought up early in your post. When kids age, should the know about the DD household they live in as it may benefit their own households as they move on in life. I am not sure but offer this comparison. Children who are raised in a nudist household simply become nudists themselves as that is the life they are familiar with. Might the same be true for DD. If they are raised with and are familiar with a dominant parent disciplining the other, might they grow thinking it is a normal way of life. Just a thought....

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    1. Possibly, though I think the apple often does fall far from the tree. "Holly" did eventually come around to disciplining her husband, but only after initially rejecting DD because she thought her mother was too quick to spank. She rebelled, initially, against how she was raised. I have a friend who was raised in a "hippie" commune, yet she's pretty conventional in her own adult living and family arrangement. My wife was raised in a very traditional Catholic family in which her father made all the rules, yet she's embraced DD and is increasingly embracing an FLR. I do think our family environment influences us, but it's often not very linear.

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  2. I come from an abusive home. So implementing spanking to her was very difficult. Dev is very understanding and has always dealt with things well. Yes. Some “ discussions” are pretty severe but she says that’s all part of it. Nobody knows about our lifestyle. JR

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    1. Thanks, JR. I'm curious, how does the background of coming from an abusive home play out for you in terms of your own adult reaction to discipline? Depending on the type of abuse and the particular family dynamics, I can see it breaking either way, with some viewing any kind of physical discipline and/or hierarchical control in an extremely negative light, or if the home was erratic and unstructured it could lead to craving *consistent* discipline. I fall into that latter camp.

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  3. Dan
    There was only one parent in the picture when I grew up and there was no discipline I was aware of. As my wife and I had a relationship that grew into a FLR fairly early, we never involved our family in any way. We felt it was private and something we both wanted and shared. We felt details of discipline or correction were like details about physical intimacy and we kept them private. My wife's parents seemed pretty traditional, though her mother usually got her way. What our children and friends knew was that my wife basically held the power. Everything was/is usually cleared through her. We have one mutual friend who knows for a fact that my wife is the boss of our marriage, but we decided to keep other details from her. She could suspect more, but nothing will be confirmed. Obviously, we went through dry spells when it came to discipline when family responsibilities got in the way. We would only give advice to family, or anyone, about discipline if they asked.
    LH

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    1. Hi LH. Your response points out the hidden assumption and bias in that part of my topic, i.e. that the commenters here came from two-parent homes. Does the mutual friend who knows "for a fact that your wife is the boss" know it because one of you told her?

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    2. Dan,
      My wife and I have known this person, a woman, since the 1980s. She works in my office. The three of us have been the best of friends for years. The woman accidentally discovered my wife was the boss because of a mistake I made. One evening I was working late at the office and I locked up and called my wife. I was alone at that moment. My wife and I had a chat that turned into a fairly lighthearted D/s conversion, when my wife said I better answer properly; so I had said a few "Yes Ma'am" and "Yes Dear" and "Yes Mistress" answers on the phone. What I didn't know was that our friend had gone out for a coffee and returned to work late to finish something (a few people have office keys). It was awkward but nothing worse was said by me and the woman didn't hear my wife's comments. But she teased me a bit saying, "Is your wife being mean again?" I said, "Oh no. Its just a little game we play." But the woman said, "I don't know. Sounds like she's the boss." And I said something like, "Yes, but every wife is" or something like that. But our friend knew obviously, though she has no information on intimate details. My wife eventually told her that with my responsibilities in work and with the hours I work, it was easier for her to be the boss at home. The issue never came up again.

      LH

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    3. Interesting. It almost sounds like she was probing, leaving an opening for you to confirm your interest in something she might be into herself. Sort of like me wishing I had asked my co-worker about what looked to be me like a slave choker.

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    4. Dan,
      You may be right. I think being coworkers made confirming anything to the woman complicated. My wife and I both believe that it's very likely that our friend figures we have some sort of Dom/sub relationship or Wife Led Marriage. It's very possible that my wife might have confirmed our relationship when she said that she was boss at home because of the amount of time I was working. We really don't mind if our friend knows, but we still prefer to keep the intimate details private. If my wife ever decided to reveal more, she's boss so I'd go along.
      LH

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    5. Got it. What your wife told you friend is a slightly more direct version of what my wife told one of our kids about her increased assertiveness and decision-making, explaining it as me wanting to have less of a role in decisions at home given all the responsibility I have at work.

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    6. Dan,
      That's how my children understood my wife's power at home. By the way, my wife purchased a collar for me not long ago. It's braided dark leather with a magnetized clasp. I do wear it at home and on weekends at her request. I've worn it when we've gone out, but always covered by a high collared sweater, also at my wife's request (due to her knowing a lot of people through her occupation). Thanks for the chat.
      LH

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    7. Mine is a pendant on a leather necklace. Normally, you can't see the pendant. But, once I was at happy hour with a co-worker and a younger guy on my team saw the necklace and asked to see it. A few months ago, I was out with some co-workers and one of the women, after several drinks, reached over and tried to flip it out of my shirt to take a look. I think it may have become one of those things that people on the job have noticed and are curious about because a leather necklace under a dress shirt seems a little out character.

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    8. What is the mysterious shape that shows you are submissive?
      Pete

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    9. Pete,
      I don't know for sure. My collar has two heavy hasps that magnetically join, but they don't join to form a symbol. I've seen collars that actually look like collars with buckles and collars with arrows. Perhaps Dan or someone else knows. My wife and I are pretty conservative in that submission happens in private, so she'd probably not make me wear a collar with any universal symbol. LH

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    10. I'm not an expert on BDSM symbology, but I have come to understand that in BDSM circles a submissive man in a committed relationship, i.e. someone who isn't looking for a new partner, is symbolized by an upward facing arrow set inside a circle. Now, I don't consider myself to be a "submissive," but unfortunately there isn't any symbol that I know of for men who get their ass warmed for misbehavior. I supposed I get find a paddle charm, but that wouldn't be quite the innocuous look I was going for.

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  4. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  5. Sorry I deleted my post due to some spelling errors.

    As far as I know my parents did not engage in any kind of discipline with each other.

    My wife had one daughter in her teens when we got married. I didn't think she knew about my wife disciplining me but we later found out that my wife's daughter heard my wife spanking me in the bedroom several times. I guess the paddle made a lot of noise. My step daughter mentioned it about a year after she moved out on her own. I'm okay with it and I'm glad it's out in the open.

    There are several people who know about my wife spanking me and they know she is the head of the household. My wife still does most of my spankings in private but, she will not hesitate to spank me in front of someone if I was rude or nasty to that person.

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    1. How did your wife know it was your wife spanking you and not you spanking your wife?

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    2. She would hear me say ouch and promising to be good. I tried not to make too much noise but she still heard me. Now it doesn't matter anymore and I am vocal when O get spanked and if she hears me that's okay.

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  6. Danielle here:

    Part 1:

    Dan, you are right that I decided we could no longer hide the full nature of our FLR from our adult son (I will call him M) who is living at home. I figured that Wayne’s depressed state has been partially due to health issues, but the inhibiting effect of our lack on privacy on our D/s lifestyle has also had an effect.

    This would not be the first “coming out” in our family. A few years ago our son came out to us as gay, and he has been pretty open about his active sex life since then. Sometimes he has told us things that I consider to be “too much information,” so it is not as though our “coming out” would shock a sexual innocent, I figured.

    I told Wayne he could think about how he wanted to reveal the situation to our son, since it isn’t embarrassing for me the way it is for him. But I ended up taking matters into my own hands. I was late for a hair appointment because of Wayne. He had neglected to refuel my car after I told him it was low, so I unexpectedly had to make a detour for gas on the way. I have always hated refueling, so looking after both vehicles has been Wayne’s duty since the outset of our FLR. When I got home Wayne and M (our son) were both in the kitchen beginning supper preparation. (Like Wayne, M is a good cook). I tore into Wayne as though M wasn’t even there because I was still angry. Being late for my hair appointment had cost me a long wait, and they had fit me in with a stylist who isn’t as good as my normal one. If M hadn’t been there, I’m sure Wayne would have acknowledged his failing and apologized, but he uncharacteristically raised his voice at me, saying that it wouldn’t kill me to put gas in my own car once in a while.

    Continuing to ignore the presence of our son, I said to Wayne, “You know what? You can just go to the bedroom and wait for me.” That is my standard signal that I am about to give him an attitude adjustment with the hairbrush. He looked aghast and stammered an excuse about being in the middle of peeling a squash. I told him to do as he was told and that the squash could wait for a few minutes. Seeing that I was serious, Wayne hastened to obey and left the kitchen.

    M was looking at me with raised eyebrows, so I figured I might as well make things really clear. Instead of spanking Wayne with the hairbrush in our bedroom, I took the paddle shaped decorative cutting board I sometimes use off the hook where it hangs on the kitchen wall.

    “Are you going to do what I think you’re going to do with that?” M asked, unable to suppress a smile.

    I said, “Yes, I’m going to give your father a long overdue spanking that I’ve been putting off because of you being here.” I then explained that since he and his brother had left home, his father and I had established a full time D/s relationship with me wearing the pants. I told him that his presence in the house had been inhibiting us, but that we needed to start being honest and open about it. I said I hoped this was not too much of a shock for him. He smiled and said that it wasn’t a shock and that it explained lots of things. He said it was cool with him if Wayne needed that, and that he had a little experience with D/s because lots of gay guys are into that. He told me he had even gone out with a guy who liked to be spanked.

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    1. Danielle here again:

      Part 2:

      When I got to the bedroom, I was pleased to see that Wayne was in position, bent over the end of the bed with his pants and underwear around his knees. I had expected him to put up an argument. When I left the bedroom door open, he asked if I wasn’t going to close it. I told him I was leaving it open on purpose so he would know that M would hear everything, and there would be nothing more to hide. I gave Wayne a longer, harder paddling than I usually do, with lots of loud scolding, so it would be clearly audible in the kitchen. Then I told him to pull up his pants and get back out to the kitchen. I didn’t give him any time to compose himself because I wanted him to face M with a flushed face and teary eyes to show that the spanking had been serious. I took my time in the bedroom getting changed to give father and son some time to themselves.

      Over supper that night, I reiterated to M that I expected him to pull his weight and not leave all the domestic duties to his father. I told him that I couldn’t very well discipline him the way I discipline Wayne but that I had decided on another disciplinary measure. I told him that the monthly “room and board” he was paying was just a nominal amount because his father and I wanted to help him out financially. He wasn’t on an allowance that I could withhold like his father was, or like he and his brother used to be, but that if I felt he wasn’t pulling his weight I would add monetary “fines” to his monthly amount owing. I also told him that although I would no longer hide the fact that I wore the pants in the house, I expected him to show his father the respect and deference a son owes a father, especially a son who is financially beholden to the father who had proposed allowing him to live under our roof. M agreed. Wayne was quiet and red faced throughout the discussion, but he told me afterwards that it is a relief not to have to hide our FLR in our own house anymore. He was hornier than he has been in ages when we went to bed, so we engaged in some sex play, but I didn’t allow him to cum because I wanted him to know that I was back in charge in every way.

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    2. Dan, to answer another one of your questions, I don’t have a daughter, only two sons, so I’m not sure how differently I would feel about outing our FLR to a daughter. I think I would want a daughter to know that men like her father exist and that they can make good husbands for a woman who doesn’t mind wearing the pants. If we had an adult daughter instead of a son living with us, I guess I would handle things the same way I did with our son. My idea of FLR isn’t based on any notion of female supremacy, so I would not expect a daughter to have superior status or any other kind of authority over her father. In that sense, I don’t think gender would be relevant.
      Danielle

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    3. Hi Danielle. Thanks for sharing the events with Wayne and your son. I'm excited for you, and I'm happy to hear that you and Wayne got your FLR mojo back.

      One issue of the relevance of gender, I have a very hard time seeing the wisdom of allowing any "child" to exercise authority over an adult, at least over any smart, well-balanced, fairly wise adult. My kids are very smart, but that doesn't mean they have developed the kind of wisdom that tends to come only from life experiences. Every once in a while I see struggles in D/s families in which it seems clear that things aren't working because the "submissive" is, in all honesty, just the wiser and more balanced of the two, or the "dominant" really isn't dominant at all. That is a very, very tough dynamic, and I used to see it *a lot* in a group I participated in that was comprised mainly of couples in a M/f dynamic. Many of the women had instigated the relationships, and based on their constant stories of dissatisfaction it was clear the husbands just weren't into it or just weren't good leaders.

      While some people have more leadership potential than others, exercising real leadership is usually an acquired or polished skill. It isn't one that most children--including young adult children--have developed yet even if they may in the future. The military model works because of (a) training; and (b) advancement in the hierarchy based on merit and *demonstrated* leadership. Just handing over authority to a child based on gender seems to me to be short-sighted and, frankly, just pretty silly.

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    4. Dan: "I have a very hard time seeing the wisdom of allowing any "child" to exercise authority over an adult, at least over any smart, well-balanced, fairly wise adult. My kids are very smart, but that doesn't mean they have developed the kind of wisdom that tends to come only from life experiences."

      This position is very reasonable, and true in a majority of situations, perhaps even a vast majority. I have 5 kids, 2 biological and 3 steps. 2 girls and 3 boys. Out of all 5 only one, Ana, has the qualities necessary to have dd-style authority and even so, when she was younger, her "authority" was very limited and always subject to approval from her Mom. It was more of an apprenticeship rather than free rein. Authority can be limited to input and evaluation without necessitating leadership, even in the primary adult relationship. (Think of the folks here who have a DD without an across-the-board FLR.)

      I guess we are all products of our experience, and if Ana did not exist, if I never met her, I might well agree with you completely. Some unique people do exist though and their abilities can run counter to conventional wisdom.

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    5. Danielle-
      That's amazing. How liberating for ALL. Interesting that M seemed to be sort of welcoming of both you and Wayne being open with it. He didn't shy away from it , didnt say he's fine if that what you guys do but that "i don't need to know" ....or even what you'd probably expect which would be to be fine w it BUT go to his room to distance himself from it and give you guys your privacy. Also noted he pro-offered he had some experience if not exposure to D/s. We're all a bunch of spankos here so I can't imagine i'm the only one that wondered as he stayed in proximity to hear the spankig and then to talk about it w Wayne if perhaps he might be a bit more than intrigued. Wonder to what extent he might have thought about it, even become curious or JEALOUS lol. He ever brought it up w/ either of you since? Made it a bit of topic of conversation at times?

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  7. "Were either of your own parents disciplined by the other parent when you were growing up?'
    >>>Severely doubt it.

    "Are your kids aware of you disciplinary relationship?"
    >>>Yes.

    "For those of you who are in an FLR, are your kids aware that the wife is the leader in the marriage?"
    >>> We are a semi-FLR and to the degree that Rosa is in charge, they are aware. But they also know I won't go along with just anything.

    "Have you ever spanked or been spanked by your spouse while the kids were in the house or might overhear?"
    >>>Often.

    "If your kids are not, to your knowledge, currently aware of your DD or FLR relationship, might you tell them or let them find out about it in the future? Why or why not?"
    >>> N/A

    "Does their gender effect your view in any way?"
    >>> No, because this is not about gender as evidenced by the number of submissive women in DD relationships.

    "If your daughter married a man with maturity or performance problems, would you pass along some helpful hints that maybe she should educate herself about DD? What if you had an immature or misbehaving son? Would you ever suggest to him (or to his frustrated daughter-in-law) that maybe disciplinary spankings could give him the structure and boundaries he seems to need?"
    >>> Not unless I knew there was an inclination there to begin with. Otherwise it would be like recommending shrimp to a person with a shellfish allergy just because you yourself liked shrimp.

    There can be a lot of speculation on this one, but I am one anecdotal, but real witness to this issue. In my experience, letting them know leads to nothing bad. It also does NOTHING to encourage the behavior in someone for whom the inclination is not there. My biological son has told me he has experimented with a lot of BDSM type stuff but has zero interest in real life DD. And if you knew him this view would make perfect sense.

    Ana comes the closest to possibly doing this one day, but currently she is disinclined to personally punish. She playfully dominates her boyfriend in subtle ways that they both enjoy but do not involve spanking. Yet she fully understands the lifestyle and wholeheartedly approves of DD for me and her Mom and contributes to it with her input.

    My biological daughter may do some mildly kinky stuff, but not DD. Once in discussing this, the topic of spanking came up and she said "but is that even kinky?" So who knows? She certainly doesn't seem to want to confess anything.

    My two step sons are aware of DD, approve of it for me, and have no interest in it for themselves. So it seems that it's a bit like growing up with a kid and letting them know you're a gardening fanatic. They'll either love the flowers but never help, join in and want to know more, or run for the bug-less, pollen-less indoors and the air-conditioning.

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    1. This sounds right to me, though I might say "openness" instead of "inclination" where participation in DD at someone's request is concerned. If my wife had any inclination toward DD, it was very well hidden. But, she was at least open to participating to it at my request, and over time that openness developed into interest and that eventually developed into some genuine enthusiasm. But, I agree with your basic point that simply being exposed to something isn't going to create any real interest in it.

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    2. I have a big shellfish allergy. It's worse than a spanking. O.K. I'm just being silly :)

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    3. Dan: I am OK with that verbal substitution.

      Tomy: Yeah, you can die from one, and die to have the other.;-)

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  8. “Were either of your own parents disciplined by the other parent when you were growing up?”

    Not that I know of, and I would be shocked to hear that was the case.

    “Are your kids aware of your disciplinary relationship?”

    Beyond play, we don’t have a disciplinary relationship. What we have is totally private. If I was in an FLR, I would not want anyone else to know about it, especially our kids. The reason is that I feel humiliated by it. It’s not a lifestyle I have any interest in selling to others. If they discover it for themselves because it’s an inherent desire, that’s fine.

    “Does their gender effect your view in any way?”

    I think it might in some way, but it would have more to do with personality than gender. I’m not sure why, but it’s worse for me to feel humiliated in front of a male than a female, however, it depends on how accepting of the dynamic they would be. A daughter with a dominant personality, who is comfortable with the idea of FLR, is easier to share with than a daughter who looks up to Daddy as her role model of strength and leadership.

    “If your daughter married a man with maturity or performance problems, would you pass along some helpful hints that maybe she should educate herself about DD?  What if you had an immature or misbehaving son? Would you ever suggest to him (or to his frustrated daughter-in-law) that maybe disciplinary spankings could give him the structure and boundaries he seems to need?”

    One of my stepsons actually has a wife who is frustratingly immature and irresponsible, but no. First, it is too personal to me to be discussing DD with anyone not already interested in this kind of relationship. Not everyone identifies FLR with kink or fetish, but that’s certainly how it could be viewed by a son or daughter. I wouldn’t take the chance that the fatherly advice be received as entirely inappropriate.

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  10. I don't know why my posts are being duplicated.

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  11. Dan: BTW.....you know my view on captioning, so this won't come as a surprise, but.....whoever decided to adorn JayEm's great witnessed spanking drawing needs to enable spell-check and grammar check, as does the captioner for the image that follows it. I never can understand someone who will take the time to find an image, invent a caption, log onto a program to attach it, and then skip the crucial step of proof-reading. LOL

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    1. Definitely a very large number of typos packed into a very short caption.

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    2. If there was a contest for most errors per word, this guy would have an impressive chance at first place. LOL.

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    3. I did not know we shared a dislike of captioning photos. I am especially vehement about re-purposing vanilla images. It just seems creepy to me.

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  12. Raised by a single mom who used spanking regularly and who came from a family where spanking was often discussed. As far as I know my parents didn’t engage in adult spanking but I have strong reason to think my mother spanked her long-time boyfriend although I never overheard it or was told directly that she did. The former girlfriend who introduced me to adult spanking was open with her college daughter about disciplining me but the daughter lived away and I was never spanked while she was in the house. That same girlfriend also discussed spanking with her college roommate (best friend) and I was spanked twice while her friend was in the house but not in front of her (adjacent room). My wife has told her mother and her older sister. The older sister has witnessed me being punished several times. There may be others in the family who know, almost certainly my brother-in –law but that has never been discussed
    Alan

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    1. Your former girlfriend was amazingly open about these things.

      Your last sentence does inject a realistic concern about telling other people, including kids, siblings, parents, etc. You really do have to assume that if you tell them, their spouses and significant others also will know. My reaction to that is, again, somewhat gender biased. The thought of a son-in-law or daughter's boyfriend knowing about it does feel like it would be very embarrassing, but I'm not sure I'd feel the same way about a son telling a daugter-in-law. In the end, I just am more embarrassed about men knowing than women.

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    2. Because I grew up long before an internet existed, when I discovered at a young age that I craved spankings, I thought something was wrong with me; the thought that my spanking fetish was perfectly normal for many other boys never occurred to me. So I hid my secret from everyone including my wife for many years, though I am regularly spanked by her now without feeling embarrassed.
      But I still feel the need to hide my fetish from everyone else, and we do.

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    3. I agree with you very much about another male knowing. It’s strange since other women knowing has basically been a good thing for my wife and I affirming her control and authority for both of us. It’s interesting but that my former girlfriend must have understood the aversion to another male because she mentioned several times she would like to spank me in front of a male friend we both knew well. She went so far as to threaten it a few times but never beyond that. But she knew how much I wanted to avoid that. Btw she really was only open about spanking with people very close to her. I doubt very much she ever talked about spanking to those outside a narrow circle. I remember her once saying that spanking was more intimate than sex and She would have felt that way about sharing it.
      Alan

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    4. Hi Alan. Spanking certainly is intimate and personal, regardless of where it fits on the spectrum of intimacy with sexual activities and regardless of the extent to which it is sexualized for each couple. It's why I do have some concerns about the stories in which husbands are spanked in a public bathroom or dressing room (99% of which I think are fantasy anyway) or being taken out of a party and spanked. Years ago, I didn't have a problem with it and could even see how it could be a real disciplinary incentive to behave better, but a commenter here pointed out that those kind of activities (if real) would essentially entail *imposing* your kinky lifestyle on unsuspecting strangers who may very well not want to be exposed to it. I think there is a lot of force in that viewpoint.

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    5. The only person who knows that I am spanked is my mother-in-law, and she triggered our DD by making a comment while my wife and I were temporarily separated that I deserved to be thrashed. But I am extremely embarrassed that she knows and am much more reserved around her, which she probably thinks is because of the spankings but actually is because she knows about the spankings. I would be even more embarrassed if a man knew. It's just such a blow to my male ego ... even though I did ask for this.
      Arthur

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    6. Arthur, I apologize if you or Liz have told us this before and I've forgotten, but can you tell us (or tell us again) about the comment from your mother-in-law and how that led to your DD?

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    7. I agree strongly as far as "imposing" the life-style is the issue. But at the same time, we need to be aware of the history of sexual "minorities". As long as they stay hidden, they face rejection and hostility. It's a dilemma. But this blog and a few others offers a forum for the "curious" to plug in and explore their own feeling about female led DD. That is progress. There are a lot of curious males out there and at least a few curious females and offering them information is an opportunity that simply didn't exist a decade or so ago.
      Alan

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    8. My wife had taken the kids to her mother's because of my arrogance toward them. I went there to talk to my wife. Her mother blocked me at the door. I said, "I need to see her." She said, "What you need is a good thrashing." I went home, thought about it, and agreed. And told my wife after we reunited.
      Arthur

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    9. When I talked to my mom about DD, she said she never expected Art to take her literally but is glad he did. I am too. Even though DD was a part of my parents' marriage, I never expected it to be part of mine. As Dan days, it's not linear within families. It seems like it has to be a conscious decision rather than just evolving naturally. I give Art credit for initiating this strategy which helps him be a better man.
      Liz

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    10. Hi Alan. I agree, but I think there is a difference between being open *about* your sexuality versus openly *showing* it to others without their consent. I think a great example is the Folsom Street Fair in San Francisco. People engage in all sorts of *very* explicit sex acts, but people expect to see it and are going into it with their eyes open, literally and figuratively. That's very different from something like being exposed to hearing an adult spanking at a vanilla party or overhearing it in a store (though, as I said, I think about 99% of those stories are total bullshit).

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    11. Liz, again, sorry if I have forgotten this, but were your parent's mutual spankings disciplinary/punitive, and did you know that at the time? I really should recall your previous posts on this, but it's been that kind of week.

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    12. They were disciplinary and we assumed they were though it wasn't explained. Are you asking for some particular reason?
      Liz

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    13. Really just trying to understand the context and whether (a) when your mother said Art should be thrashed she was making the recommendation based on experience, or just generally voicing frustration about his behavior; and (b) whether you knew not just about adult spankings as a kid but, particularly, that spanking could be used as discipline among adult partners.

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    14. She was voicing her frustration... based on her experience. She would have thrashed my Dad if he had acted that way. But she did not make the suggestion to me, nor did she think Art would follow through in any way. Nor did I get the idea to punish Art from my knowledge of my parents DD. The one with the least DD experience, Aet, is the one who suggested it. Which is why I commented that it is not linear.
      Liz

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    15. No, it wasn't for the woman I quoted above, Holly, either. She and the rest of the family were aware that her mother spanked her father. Later, her mother encouraged her to do he same, but she resisted and didn't want to run her marriage that way. Then, her husband kept acting like an overgrown child, culminating in him calling her at bitch. At which point, she took a belt to him.

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    16. Using Liz's term "linear", I agree that DD practices likely do not automatically re-occur in succeeding generations.(although I maintain that genetics is probably involved in the predisposition to DD, but the environment (experience) must trigger it or it remains dormant)So if your wife spanks you it doesn't necessarily mean your son will end up over his wife's lap some day)But as I remember Holly's posts, her experience at home did predispose her to use spanking to deal with marital issues that came up even though she originally planned not to do so. After all she could have resorted to divorce, nagging or just settling for a bad marriage as many women have before. But instead she picked up a paddle, something I doubt she would have done without her earlier experience
      Alan

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    17. I would be interested to read Holly's posts. When were they?
      Liz

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    18. Sprinkled throughout 2014 and 2015. Unfortunately, she just stopped commenting at some point, and I don't know whether she lost interest or something happened to her or in her personal life. I kind of hate it when that happens. There was another commenter from around that same time, Marisa, who I really miss having around.

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    19. Alan, I think that's right. It was the early exposure that led to Holly's eventual adoption of DD. Though, I think she also recounted something that was a bit like Liz's experience with Art. Once her husband learned that her mother had spanked her father, he seemed to get fascinated with it, and she thought he was almost non-verbally "asking for it" by acting out.

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  13. We have told nobody although it is clear to people who know us who is in charge. I grew up in an environment where corporal punishment was the norm at school and in most homes (although not mine). My father passed when I was quite young and I lived in a female dominated house where sending me to a 'tough' school was thought to in some way replace the missing father role model. Unfortunately authority was always an issue for me and I was punished at school on a very regular basis for rebelling, attitude, etc. My Mother was strong but 'outsourced' the physical discipline to the religious school that I went to, a task they seemed to relish!

    Being slightly controversial I believe that we (DD men) request, indicate or volunteer for our lifestyle, giving general consent to punishment when we are mostly strong enough to resist. As I often explain to the Boss I may not like the specifics at the time of receipt but I emotionally want the overall package. For the lifestyle to work I believe that the male has to have that desire otherwise they would either not submit or they would have to be coerced into accepting what would then feel like a form of abuse.

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    1. Hi TB. I agree with your last paragraph. It's why it took me a long time to get over some squeamishness around M/f disciplinary relationships and D/s. I now get that they aren't abusive, but I still believe the potential for abuse is there to a degree that isn't really true in the F/m context, because the plain fact is that most men cannot be physically disciplined by most women without their at least passive or grudging cooperation.

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  14. Dan,
    I had some further thoughts about other males knowing you are spanked and I hope Tomy will jump in here because he has probably had lots of experience with this area. Above I noted my agreement with you on the subject but then started thinking about it more and realize it’s a more complicated issue for me. I think another male knowing and how I feel about it depends if he is or is not also under his wife’s authority –in other words also spanked or liable to be spanked. That makes a huge difference to how I think about it. I have had one brief experience in the same room with another male being spanked and then receiving a very mild spanking myself afterward and there was no embarrassment. (He may have been embarrassed but the spanking he got was a serious one). So based on that and thinking more about it, the disciplinary status of the other male matters a lot. If he is also subject to his wife I am probably not going to be embarrassed if he knows I am spanked or even if I was spanked in front of him (I think). But otherwise my feelings about it noted above remain the same. I also remember a while back Anna and Peter reporting some experiences with Peter receiving discipline together with another male. If they are around, maybe they will comment too on the experience.
    Alan

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    1. Hi Alan. That caveat is true for me, too. I am embarrassed at the thought of *non-disciplined* males knowing that I'm spanked, but I don't think I would have the same problem with another disciplined husband knowing. But, there still seems to be a gender-oriented difference in my mind, as borne out by the fact that there are two women, one vanilla and one a wife in an FLR. The first person I told was a female friend who is pretty open-minded but isn't in a DD or FLR relationship. So, apparently I didn't mind a non-DD person know when that person was a woman. On the other hand, I have never had a live conversation about DD with another man, though I've obviously shared lots of things with disciplined males here and through emails. And, I do think I would be embarrassed by being spanked in front of another man even if he was being spanked as well.

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  15. This is Liz:
    Were either of your own parents disciplined by the other parent when you were growing up?
    Yes, as I have described, my parents spanked each other growing up. We heard it but they did not discuss it with us.

    Are your kids aware of you disciplinary relationship?
    No. While spanking was common in my house and we attached little stigma to it, it was rare for Art and he definitely does not want our children to know.

    Have you ever spanked or been spanked by your spouse while the kids were in the house or might overhear?
    No, we wait for them to get on the school bus in the morning.

    If your kids are not, to your knowledge, currently aware of your DD or FLR relationship, might you tell them or let them find out about it in the future? Why or why not?
    I think possibly when they are adults, if they broach the subject or are having trouble with a spouse.


    Does their gender effect your view in any way? If your daughter married a man with maturity or performance problems, would you pass along some helpful hints that maybe she should educate herself about DD?
    Yes, I could see doing this. My mother and I have talked since I asked her about her and my dad's DD. I don't see a gender impact though. I could suggest it to a sn with an immature wife as well.

    What if you had an immature or misbehaving son? Would you ever suggest to him (or to his frustrated daughter-in-law) that maybe disciplinary spankings could give him the structure and boundaries he seems to need?
    Yes, I could see doing this too. But also for an immature daughter.

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    1. Hi Liz. This is all very close to how I feel about sharing with kids, and with what we have done in practice. We kept it (reasonably) hidden, but under some circumstances I could see that changing now that they are adults.

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    2. I don't see the efficacy of DD being based on gender. It's more about personality and belief. My understanding is that there are more wives than husbands who get spanked as punishment and it works for them (though not for me).
      I do like erotic spankings, though, and I think I would have a much harder time admitting that to my children than about discipline spankings.
      Liz

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    3. I think it's probably true that there are more wives than husbands who are spanked as punishment, though I don't have any data to establish that. The Christian DD phenomenon probably moves the needle substantially in favor of the prevalence of M/f dynamics, but I don't really have anyway of knowing. I have been a member of a Facebook group that was focused on DD, but almost all of the participants were women on the receiving end. I do think that in many cases, the motivations of the men and women who want to be spanked seem very similar. It did seem like in the M/f dynamic there often was more of a full power exchange, i.e. it had more of an explicit Dominance/submission vibe than is the case for many who participate here. But, it's hard to generalize from such small datasets, and I do agree with your point that there is no reason to think that the efficacy of DD would vary by gender. Though, I guess I do disagree in one respect -- I think that women in our society have, at least in the past, been socialized to be more subordinate and less assertive, aggressive, etc. I think that being the one swinging the paddle and ordering discipline can be very empowering and can be a real growth experience for someone who has not been raised to be in command. Therefore, it seems to me that being on the "giving" end of a DD relationship could, in fact, be more efficacious for women that men,though not necessarily being on the receiving end.

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    4. My experience has primarily been as a child. In my household, where both boys and girls were spanked, I saw no difference in the efficacy. We all responded to corporal punishment pretty well, but we didn't truly fear it and sometimes broke a rule (like playing outside in school clothes) expecting to be caught and spanked. The boys may have gotten it harder because they were stronger, but the parental goal was always contrition, regardless of what it took to get there.
      As I think about adult DD, however, I do see a gender difference based on the assumption that the male typically has more physical strength than the female. That is, if Art put me over his knee, I am quite sure he could hold me there even if I tried to resist. Whereas I would not be able to hold him in place. So the spanked wife is in the position of not having the choice to resist, while the spanked husband can likely end the spanking at any time. The spanked wife, then, must have a deeper trust that her spouse will not take things too far. The spanked husband, on the other hand, may be demonstrating a deeper level of surrender by remaining in position and allowing the spouse to decide the severity of the punishment.

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    5. Please understand that the above entry by my wife is all hypothetical. When I am spanking her erotically over my knee, I never restrain her. When she wriggles off my lap it means she is ready for bigger and better things!
      Arthur

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    6. Hi Liz ( and Dan),
      Your general notions on the efficacy of spanking and gender are very much on point. I do also tend to agree with Dan that a woman assuming the role of disciplinarian in our culture might get a larger "payoff" from it ( I am paraphrasing Dan) than a similar male might because of the still deep power differences between the genders in our culture. Both women I have had disciplinary relationships with have "bloomed" in terms of their assertiveness and self confidence outside the relationship. This may have happened anyway but I believe the power they experienced as disciplinarians had a big role. One last point on this fascinating topic: I am not sure the strength to resist that you impute to males is always greater. There is a psychological dimension to it that can be very powerful. Since the first time my pants were taken down and I was spanked when she insisted and I didn't want it ( at the time) I have not had the will to resist or stop a spanking although there have been many I strongly wanted to stop. So whatever physical advantage I theoretically have, it is neutralized by my need to obey her. Yes I would get up or stop it if the house were on fire or other emergency occurred but otherwise I am over her lap or across the bed until she tells me she is finished.
      Alan

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    7. Exactly what I was saying, Alan. Men experience a deeper level of surrender.
      Liz

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    8. Your articulated the result; I addressed the process that can lead to that result. We arrive at the same destination via different roads.
      Alan

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  16. Dan, I continue to be impressed with your site and those that participate. I think like many men that have, at least, an inclination/interest in FLR & it's variants; we are the most interested in what women think/want. So kudos in particular to Danielle for her most recent comments. She sounds like such an incredibly confident & loving wife/partner.

    It is so generous of her & many others to share their actual experiences & how they come to grips with the challenges of navigating a "different" life style. I hope she knows that the more she & other woman offer their opinions and experiences, the more comfortable men without a partner will be in finding one.

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  17. Hi Dan,
    As I have said before, my kids don't know anything about our DD, at least as far as I know. It is certainly possible that they have found things or whatever that may indicate that spanking is going on, but if so, they probably think it is a kinky game that they don't want to know anything about, and have no idea which of us are spanked (or maybe both).

    As far as telling them, I would say only if they asked at sometime. It would be my preference that if anyone knows, it NOT be my kids. As far as passing on useful things, I have a couple of thoughts. First off, I believe that our relationship is a very good model; we treat each other with love and respect and we both go out of our way to do more than our fair share. I don't think that has as much to do with DD as it does with character, and even if we never tell our kids anything about DD, what we model will greatly shape what they expect from their relationships/spouses.

    Secondly, while I expect that DD might be effective for anyone, I believe that it is very powerful for us because it is so deeply rooted in my fantasies. When she speaks to me using my deepest fantasies, messages tend to come through much better. If I had no fantasies around this - either the discipline or the power shift that is so evident when discipline is imposed - then it might be that DD would still moderately effective, but I have to think that it would be much less so.

    -ZM

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    1. "I don't think that has as much to do with DD as it does with character, and even if we never tell our kids anything about DD, what we model will greatly shape what they expect from their relationships/spouses." I totally agree with this, though I do think that DD has allowed my wife to more openly express her personality and project a more powerful female role model.

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