Saturday, February 15, 2020

The Club - Meeting 331 - Struggles & Rationalizations

From “The Big Chill”:

Michael: I don't know anyone who could get through the day without two or three juicy rationalizations. They're more important than sex.
Sam: Ah, come on. Nothing's more important than sex.
Michael: Oh yeah? Ever gone a week without a rationalization?

Hello all.  Welcome back to the Disciplinary Couples Club.  Our weekly gathering of men and women who are in, or would like to be in, Domestic Discipline relationships. 

I hope you all had a great week. Mine was, once again, more of a struggle than I’d hoped, on a lot of fronts.  I am getting constant, annoying reminders that getting old isn’t for sissies, even if it is better than the only alternative. But, it really is a struggle facing up to one’s own physical limitations and owning up to the fact that there may be a bodily price to pay for a life well-lived.  


I’m also really struggling mentally with the fact that the universe is flashing signals left and right that my career is going in a different direction that may be beyond my control, and that I’m probably starting to go over that inevitable apex of the hill that happens when you stick around in any job or relationship just a little too long. In other words, as I get deeper into middle-age I find myself surprised to be going through an unsurprising mid-life crisis. Given that I am a problem-solver by nature, my reaction to all this is to wring my hands and create to-do lists and draft journal entries laying out the pros and cons of various major career moves.  I ran some of those past a work colleague a few months ago, several of which she thought made no financial sense, leading her to advise: “Why don’t you have a normal mid-life crisis and just get yourself a blonde and a sports car.”

So, right now I’m struggling with roles, and I'm rationalizing all sorts of reasons to stay, to leave, or to do either on a certain schedule.  That’s probably why, when I was complaining to KD this morning that I couldn’t think of a weekly topic, it resonated when he suggested asking people if they have had to struggle with accepting their own roles and what realizations and rationalizations resulted.  So, let’s do that.

Based on the exchanges we’ve had over 7 years on this blog, I don’t have much doubt that most DD relationships are initiated by the man literally asking for it.  That common pattern was reinforced just yesterday, when Liz and I talked about how Art suggested they try ‘real’ spanking, after his mother-in-law reacted to some bad behavior by telling him he should be “thrashed” for it.  While the exasperated observation came from Liz’s mother, it was Art who ultimately took it seriously and suggested giving it a try.  I’ve recounted several times that I initiated our Domestic Discipline relationship after coming across the Disciplinary Wives Club website, though I wonder whether I’ve always made it clear that while the website itself had some mysteriously powerful influence over me, I don’t think that would have been the case had I not been in an emotional place in which I was frustrated with my own bad behavior and lack of self-discipline and looking for some solution.

Of course, as we’ve all talked about many times, there is a big difference between fantasy and reality, and it definitely is possible in DD relationships to get more than what you asked for.  So, on the realization front, I can say that I’ve realized—many, many times—that real disciplinary spankings hurt like hell and are far, far different from the fantasy.  I’ve also realized, because I have had so many real disciplinary spankings, that some behaviors are really, really hard to root out.  I know that I’ve used this particular caption several times, but I think it really does express the quandary that some of us go through when DD becomes, for lack of a better term, real.


In terms of struggles accepting a role, for me that is more of an FLR thing, though not entirely.  As I’ve said, I initiated the DD relationship, and in general I accept my role as the disciplined party.  Obviously, like probably every man here who has experienced a real disciplinary spanking, I struggle to accept the reality of what is going to happen once Anne has ordered one, and I definitely struggle to accept a real spanking as it is happening.  In fact, I would say that difficulty accepting—surrendering—to the reality of the situation is probably why I have not been able to cry from a spanking, ever.  I just can’t quite get past that internal resistance that causes me to “man up” and just try to get through it.  In fact, it’s been interesting working through this paragraph because, when I wrote the first sentence I really was of the mindset that I accept my role in DD but not so much in an FLR, but as I continued to write I started to process the fact that even in DD my ego gets in the way of really surrendering to my role of chastened, punished husband by really letting go and crying in front of her.

 
Accepting the “lesser” role in an FLR is even harder, probably because it is far less aligned with my impulses.  As I said, I think DD was attractive to me intellectually because I knew I had behavioral issues that needed to be addressed, but the appeal was also incredibly visceral.  I wanted it and needed it.  With FLR, it is more intellectual than visceral.  Like Art and kind of ZM, I have problems with arrogance and ego, and I feel like being bossed around at home and being humbled in that way would be good for me.  But, the attraction to that is much less visceral than was my reaction to DD, and the plain fact is I really, really hate being bossed around while it is happening.  That’s not to say that I don’t find my wife’s exercise of that power sexy after the fact, but it is very much after the fact.  In the moment, I hate it.  But, I rationalize complying with those orders because, in the long run, I do think it helps me to let go of control and ego.  It’s sort of like a Zen tool but it involves being bossed around and humbled instead of sitting on a meditation mat. 

 
I guess another rationalization is that there are certain issues (drinking too much, in particular) that DD just has not rooted out or even tempered much after several years.  Yet, I have come to the conclusion that DD benefits my wife even in those areas where my behavior may not improve much, because it allows her to express her dissatisfaction with that behavior in a very concrete way.  Now, I don’t know whether that is realization, rationalization, justification, or some combination of those, but I do think there is at least some truth in it.

What about you? Regardless of which side of the paddle you are on, have you struggled with accepting that role?  What areas have been particularly hard to accept?  Have those struggles led to any insights and realizations you’d like to share, profound or pedestrian?  Do you find yourself rationalizing some of the stuff that prevents you from accepting your role? I'd love to hear from the women what they've struggled with, though I have to admit I sometimes scratch my head in wonder at how easily many wives seem to slide into the role in terms of accepting the role of disciplinarian almost like it was just another item on the to-do list.

There's also an interesting interplay between my acceptance and my wife's, and I wonder whether the same dynamic holds for some of the rest of you.  The two illustrations immediately above involve an elevated level of assertiveness on the part of the wife, and I think they illustrate (in very different ways) a point that I've brought upt to my wife several times and that I think she finds counter-intuitive: The stronger she is in her role, the easier it is to accept mine.  I do struggle with accepting my role in an FLR, and sometimes I struggle to accept a particular spanking even when I have it coming.  Because I do have that internal resistance, it actually helps for her to be more strict, more stern and generally more bossy.  On some level, harder, more stern orders are simply easier to comply with, probably because they don't seem to invite the possibility of actual resistance.  I know one of the struggles some women face is being perceived as "bitchy," but I really react better and accept my role more easily when she is more strict and stern.  Let's face it, who wants to follow a weak leader?

Before, I go, an update on the reporting regimen that Liz suggested.  It is interesting that once I came to a somewhat workable technological approach to reporting, I do find myself really struggling with aspects of it.  In suggesting his ideal reporting tool, ZM talked about how the ideal tool would involve a report that you can’t “take back,” i.e. once you hit the button it’s gone and she knows.  That is what I find myself struggling with, entering information into an app and knowing that the second I hit “enter” it shows up on her own networked app.  Something about it seems even more like self-sentencing to a spanking that does journaling about certain offenses, perhaps because the report in the app is so simple—just a list of offenses committed—and thus lacks precisely what this week’s post is about, namely rationalizations and explanations. But, I’m also accepting that our reporting just isn’t going to work very well until our current living arrangements change and we have more alone time.  So, I’m going to keep reporting but I don’t see things changing much for another few weeks in terms of impact on consistency.

80 comments:

  1. I got such a kick out of that quote from The Big Chill!! I think I have that movie memorized. Anyway, I am writing a rather detailed response and will be posting it both here and on my own blog later this week. Thanks for taking up the suggestion. I hope to read some deep insights from our little clan here. It's a very introspective topic and full of revelation if approached honestly and mindfully.

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    1. Yeah, it's definitely my favorite line in that very quotable movie.

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  2. Joe2 here,

    You stated, “I don’t think that would have been the case had I not been in an emotional place in which I was frustrated with my own bad behavior and lack of self-discipline and looking for some solution.” I was in a similar position. I had a very stressful job and the stress was causing to feel lost and overwhelmed, so I needed to find a way out. Spanking has given me balance and a way of removing the stress.

    To your question, “have you struggled with accepting that role?” In a macro sense, no. I accept my role, because it works so well. But there needs to a time lapse between the notice for a spanking and the actual spanking, to get my brain set into the correct perspective. Corner time really gives me that time lapse.

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    1. We are similar with respect to the macro picture, though even there it is a little difficult with respect to FLR. I do think that while my temper and pushiness at work have been problematic, it's also true that the aggressiveness and confidence have helped me a lot over time. Like anything else, those qualities become problematic when taken to an extreme. I have struggled with whether, in adopting an FLR and in trying consciously to humble myself, could I be setting myself up for problems in other areas.

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    2. Dan,

      Joe2 here,

      Maybe it’s not the aggressiveness that is causing the problem, but rather the need to acquire the judgement on when to be aggressive. Unfortunately, I think judgement is the hardest of all traits to acquire, because every situation is unique and very situational, e.g. the judgement a cop uses is similar but different than an accountant.

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    3. Hi Joe2. I agree, judgment--and the patience not to react until such judgment is exercised--is key. But, I do still have concerns that becoming submissive in one part of your life might be hard to compartmentalize and prevent from spilling over into other areas or to apply it one degree in one context and to a different degree in another. It would be great to be able to do that, but it's hard.

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  3. I am not sure about the questions posed here but I know I would not be pleased if a woman at Art's work suggested he get "a blonde and a sports car." Even in jest. That seems like she was flirting with you, Dan, especially if she is blonde. Did Ann have any reaction?
    Liz

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    1. No, she's not a blonde and not someone Anne would have the slightest concern about. Anne was fine with the suggestion -- of the sports car.

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    2. I know it's not the point. But, if you want a real sports car get something like a Miata. Musclebound Corvettes ain't sports cars in my book. Gorgeous yes, but genuine sports, no.

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    3. I'm not a big Corvette fan either. Great performance, but the style is just a bit much. As old as I'm feeling, I'm not feeling quite old enough for a Corvette. And, I don't own any gold chains.

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    4. In the last two years Art has asked to be paddled, bought a Mustang he always wanted, and started shaving his head to hide the bald spot. Is that a midlife crisis?
      Liz

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    5. Midlife crisis? Hell no. It's a party. Rock on Art.

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    6. BTW I have a wide variety of reasons to explain why I never have to rationalize anything. But I will spare you the details.

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    7. Rather than a midlife crisis, I think I'm having a "wifeis." That's when a middle aged man realizes his wife is everything he needs ...
      Arthur

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    8. Liz, it's hard for me to say. I beat him by a dozen years on the asking to be paddled thing, but I love Mustangs and am always one stop at the Ford store away from buying one, and I'm always about one hair-filled shower drain away from just shaving it off.

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    9. Art said "I think I'm having a "wifeis." That's when a middle aged man realizes his wife is everything he needs ..." You need to start a new enlightenment movement. You got the wisdom Dude.

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  4. I do think I slipped into my disciplinarian role quite easily, but I assumed that was because spanking was so prevalent in my family that it was not considered a big deal. So it is interesting to hear that other women without my background also have been able to adopt the role easily. Maybe it is not that hard to act parental towards men who act childish!

    Because our DD is limited to one large issue (arrogance) and we address it within limits (regularly scheduled sessions), I have not found much difficulty accepting my role. I think rationalizing is more for the spanked husband than the spanking wife, but I have had a few realizations:

    First, it is extremely comforting to know there is something I can actually do about Art's arrogance. I used to feel helpless, to the point that our marriage was in danger and I had to leave temporarily. He did not respond to my anger or my sadness about the way he was treating our children. But he does respond to the paddle! And even to threats, knowing looks, and other warnings. To know I can actually STOP his arrogance when I need to has changed everything between us.

    Similarly, I don't just feel comforted by my new authority. I LIKE it. I like knowing I have this power over him. Neither of us wants an FLR, but there is an "FLRness" to our relationship that is new. He is more service oriented. He helps more around the house. He is more polite. He is more attentive to my needs, both in and out of the bedroom. He is more deferential. I wasn't sure I would like deferential, but I do. It is a realization that he can be a bit submissive - there, I said it - without losing his manliness.

    It also is wonderful that my role as his disciplinarian has not affected the turn-on I get when he puts me over his knee in bed. We have done well at maintaining different roles in different situations. We have had days where I paddled him in the morning and he spanked me in bed that night - without confusing those roles at all. Good for us!

    Art was very concerned that I would think less of him and start treating him like a child all the time. But the opposite is true. I think MORE of him that he wants to reduce his arrogance and that he brings me the paddle and willingly takes his medicine like a real man should, accepting the consequences for his actions.
    Liz

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    1. Hi Liz. So much good stuff in your comment.

      "So it is interesting to hear that other women without my background also have been able to adopt the role easily. Maybe it is not that hard to act parental towards men who act childish!" I think this hits the nail on the head.

      "First, it is extremely comforting to know there is something I can actually do about Art's arrogance. I used to feel helpless, to the point that our marriage was in danger and I had to leave temporarily." I have to imagine that many, many wives who take up the paddle feel this way.

      "Similarly, I don't just feel comforted by my new authority. I LIKE it." Again, I have to think many, many DD wives feel that way, even if some are reluctant to admit it.

      "I wasn't sure I would like deferential, but I do." Compared to some, we are just dipping our toes in FLR, but I think my wife feels this same way.

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  5. This is Arthur. I don't think of myself as a rationalizer, but my wife is good at getting my rationalizations to come out while she is swinging the paddle. She will often ask questions and expect answers. She recently during a paddling asked me why I had made a rude comment to the cafeteria lady at work. I said because the soup looked old. She then asked me if the cafeteria lady made the soup or just served it. Of course it was the latter. So I have to admit I was rationalizing my rude comment, which I had addressed to the wrong person. Amazing that such clarity can come while being walloped!
    Arthur

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    1. Hi Art,
      Interrogation under the paddle (or bath brush) is a fine art. Liz might be a natural disciplinarian discovering it this early because it took my wife some time to realize the efficacy of interrogating while spanking. For me it seems to be most effective bare bottom over her lap. It doesn’t seem to work as well in other positions. But I still sometimes am amazed at how talkative I become when she questions me that way. My sins of omission just babble out under her probing. She is really just creating a “teaching moment” and it sounds like Liz is doing something similar. But it both thrills me and chills when she asks “Is there anything else you need to tell me”? That never ends well for me.
      Alan

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    2. Art and Alan, my wife hasn't really done the mid-spanking "interrogation" thing, but it's an interesting concept.

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  6. Not to interrupt the important flow but since the subject of sports cars & Corvettes came up: I've driven Corvettes, my older son owned one. I would never buy one. I did own the best sports cars I've ever driven & it was VERY affordable & a hoot to drive. A mid engine Toyota MR2. Too bad they don't make them anymore.

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    1. My all time favorite car was the one I had in college, an Austin Healy 100-6. But the most impressive car I have driven was a Jaguar 12 cylinder. And Dan, if type of conversation is in fact too much of a distraction let me know. I am famous for going off on tangents.

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    2. I'm fine with the distraction. I've never driven a Jag, though I frequently fantasize about an F-type. Truly beautiful cars. Though I hear the repair bills are just crazy

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    3. I have just always had a thing for Mustangs but never owned one before. If the famous three vertical lines of the taillights were horizontal, it could be the DD car!
      Arthur

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    4. I've always liked them too. My dream car (as of today) is probably a Porsche Cayman, but I also love the new Mustangs.

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  7. Dan,
    Regarding this...
    "Accepting the “lesser” role in an FLR is even harder, probably because it is far less aligned with my impulses. As I said, I think DD was attractive to me intellectually because I knew I had behavioral issues that needed to be addressed, but the appeal was also incredibly visceral. I wanted it and needed it. "

    My wife is naturally more dominant than I am, and I'm naturally more submissive. So, I never had too much of an issue accepting a "lesser role". I also had many behavioral issues from being spoiled as a child. Where I am lucky is that my wife was not a person that had a destructive or cruel nature. I could have been broken down by a nasty dominant wife, or have been forced to leave. Instead, there's been genuine improvement in my actions and conduct over the years. I owe much of my success to my wife. She has even disguised some discipline session as "spanking challenge" to keep things a little kinky for me.

    And for this...
    "I'm always about one hair-filled shower drain away from just shaving it off."

    My wife once threatened me with a shave as punishment, lol. Funny this topic came up. I'm actually coming to grips with hair loss, which progressed rapidly over the last 12 months. And, my wife noticed the pattern of baldness is extremely uneven and patchy on the back of my head. I decided that as soon as warmer weather arrives in the Northeast I'm going to be letting my barber shave my head, at least initially, then I'll step in and maintain it. I could do it myself, but I think starting off with a well shaved head and with the right shaving tools and lotions on hand will be easier for me.
    LH

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    1. Rogaine does help, though it's a war of attrition.

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    2. Dan,
      LOL, that's true. But there are potential side effects. My wife told me she worried more about the side effects than about me being bald, though using it was my decision. Since my remaining hair is gray, we think I'll look a bit younger bald (I wish my hair was thick and full to be sure). Getting older is wonderful :-(

      I almost forgot...you said,
      "That’s not to say that I don’t find my wife’s exercise of that power sexy after the fact, but it is very much after the fact. In the moment, I hate it. But, I rationalize complying with those orders because, in the long run, I do think it helps me to let go of control and ego."

      Even though I'm an obviously more submissive type, I agree. When my wife exercises her control, I sometimes feel a little angry, depending on the situation. I start to think, "I'm an adult too" or "I work hard, why can't I..." and thoughts of that type. Then, its after that it sets in I think its an attractive and sexy part of her and our relationship.
      LH

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    3. I totally get the sentiments in both you first and last paragraphs!

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    4. LH: What you describe in terms of that pretty quick hair loss rate and irregular patterning sounds more like alopecia than male-pattern balding. Have you had it checked by a doctor?

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    5. kdpierre,
      Thanks. I didn't mean to imply hair loss was that quick, because I've had thinning hair for years. I did have my doctor look (he does a thorough physical and checks skin and scalp). He said no. I was temporarily on medication that can cause thinning of the hair, and that is most likely the culprit. Also, father was bald and so was his brother, and even an aunt (she had super fine hair and wore a wig). They were all blood relations too. I'm lucky my hair was with me so long. How times have changed too. I worked with a man who was quite glad he went mostly bald. He prefers to shave his head and his wife likes his look too. He said it made shaving much easier. He pulled off the look as they say.
      LH

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  8. As promised here is a shorter version of what I have just posted on my blog about this issue. And even abridged, it's long for a comment:

    In my first kinky relationship (at 19 with the woman I would later marry and then divorce) I was faced with a partner who was willing to spank....but made it clear they would never be erotic massages, but real ass-burner spankings. And, while I appreciated getting some of what I wanted, I found myself struggling with rationalizing a male ego (kinky though it was) with what turned out to be very ‘real-ish’ spankings from a girlfriend who was very much equal to me in age, intelligence, economic background, etc. And she was struggling a bit too, especially since she wasn’t quite sure how dominant she wished to be. It was awkward going. And one solution that worked well for us was using chance, bets, and other non-behavioral excuses for her to spank.

    In my head I was able to rationalize my submission as just ‘being a good sport’ and honoring the roll of the die (sometimes literally) rather than admit to any need for correction, or desire to be led.In my past marriage we dabbled in genuine punishments and I certainly got a handful, but so few were of this variety that even know I remember what each was for due to their exceptional nature. But when I entered into DD with Rosa, she was not nearly as reticent and I was soon getting spanked genuinely, regularly. And to be honest, I appreciated it, but struggled with it as well. What made it more challenging was that at the time of my acquiescence to her authority, I saw it as some subs say, “a gift of submission”. I rationalized my role as this huge concession I was making as a tribute to her and as proof of my devotion. But Rosa didn’t see it that way. She would look at me quizzically whenever I waxed poetic over my role and acceptance of hers and responded with a much more simple view: each of us was merely being what we were meant to be. Each of us was in our natural and proper state…….period. No fancy rationalization, just a statement of blunt fact.

    After pondering this, and during discussions with others I came around to a new rationalization: we were merely in the roles we were best suited for. Essentially this was the “My Honey knows best” philosophy. But even this rationalization chafed at the times when I realized that my Honey…...wonderful as she is…...didn’t always know best. Sometimes I knew best and she couldn’t see it. But, here we were. She being in charge and me being subject to her authority.

    Now I have sort of given up on trying to settle on the one, true, rationalization that justifies why a person like me submits to DD with someone like her. Instead, if i need a rationalization, I just pop one into my head for the current situation, even if it doesn’t hold up for the next one. Disposable rationalizations. Use them as needed. Toss ‘em away when you’re done. Some current favorites:

    I need this now, so whatever gets me there….fine
    This is the way I am.
    She was right several times when I thought I was, so maybe this time is the same.
    She needs this to feel empowered. Challenging her will thwart her growth.
    I brought this up and agreed to be accountable, so I’m just honoring the terms of the agreement.
    It’ll be over soon, so just suck it up.
    This will be good for me.

    In making these up I toyed with a couple more but those got me thinking that perhaps they weren’t really rationalizations….although they could be:

    “I deserve it”
    “She wants this and she’ll feel better if I go along with it.”

    Each of these address DD as a need to one party of the other and is used to cover up some other less comfortable realization, these can be used as a crutch to get around a stickier wicket.






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  9. (Part 2) I’ve mentioned before that I had two long conversations with my mother about my lifestyle prior to her succumbing to cancer. One was a sort of ‘coming out’ and the second was very detailed. In that second conversation, I confessed some of my struggles with my role and my mother, rather than giving credibility to my occasional difficulties, advised me instead to embrace my role fully rather than resist it. That conversation had a big impact on me and converted several ‘doubts’ that required “rationalizations” into honest, personal realizations. Realizations that like Rosa had said from the outset: “this is just who you are”. When my mother sort of confirmed that, it made it harder to ignore or meander around. It was something I had certainly considered, but it is not something that is easily embraced in a society such as ours.

    So now I wish I could say that I am fully secure in my role and never need to rationalize my lifestyle having come to full realization of its appropriateness and efficacy…...but I’d be lying. I still sway back and forth from self-acceptance to self-doubt made palatable with rationalizations and I doubt I will ever be free from the need for them.

    And that's the gist. If you want the full account with more background, you'll have to visit my blog. And as for sports cars? No thanks. For me cars are these necessary evils for getting me, passengers, and stuff from one place to another.

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  10. "She would look at me quizzically whenever I waxed poetic over my role and acceptance of hers and responded with a much more simple view: each of us was merely being what we were meant to be. Each of us was in our natural and proper state…….period. No fancy rationalization, just a statement of blunt fact."

    Part of my envies Rosa that clarity, though is it actually true in your case? She may see her role as a perfect fit for her, but do you feel the same with respect to your role. As we've discussed many times, you submit to her but it's with some pretty big and hard caveats around consent, justice, etc. I'm not criticizing, but it seems like she is a lot more secure that she's landed in the "correct" role than you sometimes are. Again, I'm not criticizing and couldn't on that score because, as described above and in other posts, I am not a "natural" when it comes to any of this. I don't accept or bend ot authority easily, if at all, so very little about FLR feels like a "natural fit." DD is, as I said, more so because of this very, very powerful visceral element that does also correspond nicely to my self-awareness that my behavior and attitude sometimes suck and DD imposes some much needed boundaries that promote some modicum of balance.

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    1. She is definitely more comfortable in her role because she is the one who gets to be in charge. I'm sure a reluctant Top might also need rationalizations to be firm and punish, but is anyone here going to try to deny the Top role is more enviable? It's a simple thing. Forget thrill or acceptance, or sexiness or needs and just put one couple in a conversation with another and let one admit to being the Top in a DD relationship and the other admit to being the sub, especially if it is F/m oriented. Now really, who is in the more embarrassing role?

      That is what I brought up to my mother that time. That on the surface most people would see me as the dominant party and yet I'm the one on the receiving end. As I told her, it might not be that bad and probably could even be a badge of honor to admit that in a purely sex-play scenario. But when it's real spanking for genuine misbehavior? Whip out those rationalizations.

      One point I also should have made in the essay was that the same statement can be a realization or a rationalization or even both at the same time. The line between the two is fuzzy and is defined almost entirely by comfort with the role.....perhaps not always privately, but certainly when comparing oneself to others around us who would not do this. As such your point about possibly needing to be a bit dysfunctional to start with is well-taken. And how many of us are proud of our dysfunctions?

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    2. I think you're probably right for most people about which role is more enviable, though I have a funny relationship with authority both as a receiver and giver. I have all sorts of faults in life, but liking having power over others is not one of them. I actually have a pretty significant aversion to it. I don't like exercising authority, and I don't like when people treat me differently because I have it. It's a paradox, because I have a fairly big leadership position at work, and it's one I actively sought. But, it's because I like to have influence and to get things done, but I don't get off in any respect on being seen as "above" others.

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  11. I thought Dan was asking more about rationalizations within a DD relationship, but KD commented more about rationalizations for the relationship itself. That is interesting.

    Why do I need DD? My rationale is that I have been unable to control my arrogance on my own, so my wife helps me with punishment. So is it unable to control my arrogance? Or unwilling? And is my rationale, that I can't control my arrogance on my own, actually a rationalization?

    Also, do I need punishment to control the arrogance? Or is that also a rationalization, an excuse to fulfill some other need. I really don't think so, since I never was attracted to corporal punishment until my wife left me. Ah, but maybe that's it: I feel so guilty for mistreating her and the kids that I want her to punish me. Ok, then that sounds like arrogance is not the reason for punishment; guilt is.

    But arrogance is the behavior that caused the mistreatment for which I feel guilty. And it is the behavior I most want to change. So I go back to it not being a rationalization, but real.

    We do turn in a strange circular motion ...
    Arthur

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    1. We do, though whether or not the reasoning is circular, as one of the few other people here who did not have any early attraction to spanking or punishment, I get it.

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  12. Dan- I can't believe noone has commented on the fourth insert (pun intended) in this weeks post. Now THAT is a F.L.R. !!!! That guy is literally getting introduced to a new HEAD of the Household!!!!

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    1. Darren: I love to comment on captioned art and photos.....as Dan well knows. But I've been trying to behave. I could say plenty about that one though. As for your assessment: "Now THAT is a F.L.R. !!!" ....I would concur if by that you mean: Forceful Little Reaming. ;-) LOL

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    2. I would more enjoy having the KD stuff on the KD sites.

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    3. Tomy: I'm not sure what you mean?

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  13. I pretty much don't care if it's a rationalization, a justification, or a reason - as long as it works. I look at it practically: the paddle reduces Art's arrogance. I don't much care about the whys and wherefors. But our prophylactic sessions do seem rather simple: when his butt is burning (or the memory of the pain is fresh), he behaves better.
    Liz

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    1. >>>>>>>>I pretty much don't care if it's a rationalization, a justification, or a reason - as long as it works.<<<<<<<

      Hmmmmm. Wow. Well.........OK then. This particular topic came up because after doing weekly topics since 2013, Dan was getting bored with rehashing the same old stuff....as was I. So we threw out a topic that admittedly involved a little self-reflective analysis. An examination of what we tell ourselves to make what we're doing more acceptable when we feel odd in comparison to others. I thought it a worthy issue. But I suppose it would have just been better to ask: "what's your favorite position?" or "your least favorite implement?" for the zillionth time. Even then I suppose folks could reply: "I pretty much don't care what implement we use as long as it works". That would certainly make for some brief discussions.

      But it doesn't seem like you are alone in this, Liz. This topic certainly generated more comments on cars and hair loss than rationalizations and realizations. So as topics go....this certainly fell squarely in the 'dead-end' category......but not entirely unpredictably.

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  14. ahhhh KD ....don't leave out the comments that were more fun than just cars and hair loss!!!!! hehe

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  15. Hi Dan,

    I definitely can relate on the getting old feelings! I am in my 50’s, and while I don’t have any aches and pains like so many others do, I just don’t bounce back from anything as well as I used to.

    Good questions for this week, though I don’t have any great answers! I struggle to accept my role at times, and I certainly have many rationalizations and realizations that have occurred in these past few years, but I am not so sure if they are the result of struggling to accept my role or rather are from the process of trying to more clearly define and understand exactly what my role is or should be. So, I will tell some realizations, some rationalizations, and some of the struggle I have with accepting my role, without necessarily trying to establish clear linkages. This will probably get longs, so I will break it up into separate messages for realizations and rationalizations.

    I have had a number of realizations involving DD/FLR over the past several years, when for the first time ever I began to experience it after a lifetime of thinking about it. I don’t know that I can succinctly write about all of them, but here are a few of the more significant:

    - While I have had a spanking fantasy forever, the actual fantasy is not just to be spanked, but rather to receive real discipline (spanking or otherwise) for real infractions.

    - While the discipline is real, my underlying fantasy and the clearly sexual aspect of DD contributes greatly to the power and significance of it for me.

    - The reality and fantasy are worlds apart in practice, yet somehow still remain closely linked for me.

    - There is a huge difference between how I feel inside the moment vs outside the moment. At all other times, I am craving that which I desperately don’t want at the time it actually happens!

    - For me, “imposed discipline” is MUCH more about the “imposed” than the “discipline” itself.

    - The primary role of pain is not to make me sorry (though it does do that) or to allow her to physically express her feelings by venting on my backside (which it also does), but rather to make very clear the momentary power shift. When she exercises her authority, it becomes real.

    - I both crave giving over control, and yet struggle with doing so, even temporarily.

    I could write a whole post for any of these but won’t for the sake of brevity. If anyone feels like talking about any of them, I would be happy to explain myself better.

    -ZM

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    1. Great list, and many of these would be on my own list of realizations. We do differ on the "having a spanking fantasy forever" thing. But, where I think we are most in alignment are the realizations about the relative importance and respective ranking of the sexual, disciplinary, and "imposed" disciplinary elements. I didn't have the early fantasies about spanking, but there plainly is an erotic and sexual driver to my interest in it. But, I think the fact that finding the DWC website and reading the stories triggered a powerful need that I had not had before when seeing or reading spanking material is strong evidence that it was the disciplinary aspects of DD and not the spanking per se that drove that reaction. I think I was pretty aware at the time that it was the discipline that appealed to me and not the spanking in and of itself. But, it took me longer to realize how important the "imposed" part is.

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    2. Yeah, I totally get what you are saying. In your case, even though you were brought to the DWC site by the desire for genuine discipline, the erotic undertones are undeniable and very powerful. I think if it weren't like that for all of us, we wouldn't all keep coming back here week after week, year after year.

      For me, the spanking part was always there, but I didn't realize that even though I had a spanking fantasy, in order for it to be in anyway fulfilling, it had to be a real spanking for a real reason. To me that was quite a change of thinking; after years of obsessing over anything and everything involving spanking, it turns out that spanking wasn't really all that big of a deal for me in and of itself. Give me a spanking for fun, as part of play, and it still turns me on a little, but does very little to address my need/want. So I have a fantasy of being subject to real discipline, and that it be imposed without my really having a say in the matter (at least on a situation to situation basis).

      -ZM

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    3. I honestly don't remember how I came to find the DWC website. As best I can recall, I had googled something like "wives spanking husbands" at some point after we had experimented with erotic spanking. I know that the first time I had any interest at all in adult spanking was after seeing a segment on it on HBO's Real Sex series. We played with it, and the kinkiness was fun and I apparently got enough out of it to Google at some point for material on wives spanking husbands. But, it wasn't a big thing at all.

      But, looking back, I do think there was one earlier indication that the "imposed" discipline was a big thing for me. Several months ago, we did a topic on marking. https://disciplinedhubbies.blogspot.com/2019/06/the-club-meeting-301-marking.html. One of the pictures in that post is of a male with a well-striped bottom kneeling over a hay bale in a barn. As Danielle and I discussed in the comments, that photo accompanied a story in which a wife and husband had been "playing" with a dominant male, and that dominant male interrupted a dinner party to take the husband out to a barn and strap him to tears with a belt. I am pretty sure that I saw that story before I discovered the DWC, and I recall it having a very immediate and powerful effect on me, similar to the DWC's impact. Looking back now, I think that what got to me was that the entire scenario--being forced to leave a party at the risk of being "outed" in front of guests if you didn't comply--was about as non-consensual as it gets. The threat of being outed for non-cooperation, basically being coerced into taking that walk to the barn, the fact that the spanking was by another, more aggressive male . . . it was about as close to non-consent as I had ever been exposed to up to that point.

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    4. I hadn't seen/recalled the scenario you put to that pic....OMG....had an effect on me just reading it now. That would be WILD.

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    5. Yeah, I've tried google searches looking for that story, but it seems to have disappeared from the internet. I have no idea where I saw it the first time.

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  16. On to “rationalizations.” I don’t necessarily like that word, because we all understand that rationalization is not so good. While that may be true from a psychology perspective, I tend to be a bit more pragmatic about it. If my rationalizations allow me to be more at peace with myself, with less guilt and more feelings of being closer to “normal,” then who really cares, especially if it allows me to lead a more peaceful, happy life? And that is my rationalization for why rationalizations aren’t bad! ;-)

    Two disclaimers before listing some of my rationalizations:
    - I won’t be listing the “best” ones, because if a rationalization is REALLY good, I won’t even recognize that I am rationalizing.
    - Every one of my rationalizations is also true on a certain level. They are not pure delusions, because each contains a significant element of truth as well.

    Now, what are these rationalizations that I make? I don’t even really know how to express them, perhaps because of some of the built-in contradictions, so maybe that is where to begin? The biggest inherent contradiction for me with regard to DD is that I very clearly want, need, and even crave something that I also don’t want, especially at the time I get it! Furthermore, I feel bad for needing it, since in each case, it shows my underlying weaknesses and lack of self-control.

    Some of my (many) rationalizations for this are:
    - I’m just wired this way
    - It helps me become a better man and husband, so that is what is important
    - it improves our relationship - especially communication
    - maybe the need comes from lack of boundaries when I was younger (so it is not MY fault)
    - it is much better than un-addressed problems, simmering resentment, and the quiet treatment. It gets things out in the open and leads to quick resolution

    The fact that DD/FLR exists somewhere in between fantasy and reality also brings several contradictory rationalizations:
    - when I feel bad about some real issue she is punishing me for, I sometimes remind myself that this is also sort of a game for us, and that she is intentionally making the issue much bigger than it really is.
    - when I feel like it is not “real” enough, I think about how real the issue is.
    - when I feel abnormal for having the fantasy/desire to be punished by my wife, then I rationalize it by thinking, “this is not a game, it is just a practical solution to fix real problems” and I equate it with clearly non-sexual spanking like school paddlings while I was growing up (unfortunately only for others)

    Rationalizations continue into the public/private realm. When I think about how humiliating it would be for someone else to know about it (anyone, in fact), which is something that is morbidly fascinating to me, again I can play off the real vs fantasy aspect:
    - I wouldn’t tell friends, family, or anyone else that we make love most every night, and we both do oral every time too, because that is private. So why would I tell them about the DD/FLR stuff?
    - I don’t have to have every aspect of my life public in order to be true to myself.
    - but -
    - The fact is that this is real discipline for real behavior. Why would it be bad for someone to know, especially if they were someone who wouldn’t tell others so I don’t have to think about how every person looks at me from now on?

    A few other random ones:
    - It’s consensual. Yes, this is certainly true, but also not. As Alan was saying, I could never bring myself to withdraw consent, so in a very real sense, because I need it, it is not really consensual.
    -A big one that we both have is how compartmentalized we try to keep it. We tell ourselves that it doesn’t affect anything else, but her having the authority to punish me at any time in any way for anything INEVITABLY will spill over into other things given time and opportunity.

    And I will continue with the getting into roles in yet another message.
    -ZM

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    1. I think every husband in a true DD relationship struggles with the "contradiction" of wanting something when a spanking isn't on the horizon, then very much *not* wanting it once one is imminent. But, like you, the "imposed" discipline element also causes contradictory reactions. On the one hand, having boundaries imposed upon me is a big, big part of the visceral reaction to both DD and FLR, but in the moment I very much do not like having rules imposed on me. I actively resent it in the moment when she is bossing me around or telling me what to do.

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    2. I feel you on this one...! I just couldn't agree more. And you are right that "the 'imposed' discipline element also causes contradictory reactions." If I DID want it at the time it was happening or imminent, it would lose most all of its allure since it would no longer feel at all imposed.

      But then, as you said, with both DD and FLR, at the moment it happens, I really struggle with it. I don't necessarily resent it when she bosses me around or tells me what to do, but rather it just hurts my fragile male ego, so I do struggle with it. But ironically, as you said in your original posting, the times that she becomes really firm and strict, that really helps me to assume my position.

      So in summary, I really, really want her to impose something that I definitely won't want or enjoy in the least. And then when she does impose her will, I will probably struggle somewhat with having to submit to her authority, so she needs to be super strict and firm, even to the point of being ultra bitchy, and that will help me to not struggle as much?

      Yeah, I guess it all seems straightforward and logical! ;-)

      -ZM

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    3. Dan,
      I think the degree or level of a FLR might impact the contradictory reactions associated with discipline and imposed boundaries. My wife is the boss but she can be very benevolent, vert fair when it comes to the rules, boundaries and punishment. For example, she was extraordinarily annoyed when I didn't finish a project that was taking far too long in our home. My heart wasn't into it and it was a project I've done before. It was boring and annoying. Here I am an man in my 50s and she grounded me for two entire weekends, which were to be dedicated to completing the home project. I was going to see an show with friends and had paid for my ticket in advance. She let me to go to the show as scheduled with the promise that the job would be done before a certain date. The grounding took place over the following two weekends. It worked out well because I finished most of the work the first weekend and had light work and cleanup to do the next weekend. I gave a bit more explanation than was probably necessary, but the point is that I would have resented things if she had told me I couldn't go to the show. My wife was happy, but it also annoyed me in the moment that she said she would have disciplined me if the job had not be wrapped up. My first thought was I'm an adult. Do I have to be disciplined? Later, the kinky part of me was wishing she had disciplined me.
      LH

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    4. "If I DID want it at the time it was happening or imminent, it would lose most all of its allure since it would no longer feel at all imposed."

      Exactly!

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    5. "It also annoyed me in the moment that she said she would have disciplined me if the job had not be wrapped up. My first thought was I'm an adult. Do I have to be disciplined? Later, the kinky part of me was wishing she had disciplined me."

      I totally get it. Also, grounding is another of those disciplinary measures that really get to me. It is such a "parental"-like form of discipline.

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    6. Dan,
      True. And yet, when she's in a mood to make a kinky game out of discipline she believes I deserve (we have a game we came up with that I won't bore anyone with as far as details), my wife can frame it with any excuse she wants, "parental" or not. lol Some of this stuff is obviously rationalized as fun or not fun based on one's state of mind and the conditions if that makes any sense.
      LH

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  17. I don’t really know how to address the questions about how much I struggle with assuming my role because I am not really sure what my role is. What we have agreed is: she can punish me at any time for any reason in any way. But even though that seems pretty much unlimited, there are some mutually understood boundaries.

    1)For any REASON - She can punish me for any reason. Unlike many couples, we do not have a clear set of punishable offenses, though we did try that in the beginning. In reality, we agree pretty much completely on reasons, though the fact that she alone decides what is punishable is the one way that we kind of cross over into what I would consider FLR. Also, since we also do femdom roleplay sometimes, she can always as part of play pretend that she is punishing me for any made-up reason. Where I would probably have a hard time with assuming my role is if it is something real that she is punishing me for, but that either I don’t agree with the overall principle involved - that would be very rare - or I don’t agree that my behavior violated that rule or was somehow justified by circumstances. That hasn’t really happened so far, or at least not a clear case of it. When it does, which is a certainty, then that will be a struggle to assume my position. I will likely rationalize it with the thinking that “nobody’s perfect, and she is bound to make mistakes….”

    2)In any WAY - She can punish me in whatever way she sees fit, and can make the punishment fit the crime in her perspective. I do sometimes have a hard time with getting spanked so hard, because it just hurts unbelievably bad. Of course, she is never going to do anything to intentionally cause any long term harm, because that is counter to our purposes, but it sure doesn’t feel very good at the time. I don’t think that I am really a masochist, so the pain is often not very welcome at the time. Or am I?

    3)At any TIME - She can punish me at any time. And this is where the rationalizations start to freely flow, because inevitably, when it comes time for punishment, I don’t want it to happen, or at least then. I can think of 100 excuses to delay it. “I would rather just spend romantic time with her” is a good one. In fact, when it comes time to become the punished little boy, every excuse pops to the surface, about the reason for punishment, the timing of it, etc. So I guess I really DO have a hard time of assuming my role as the discipline recipient.

    But when it goes beyond “pure” DD, that’s when my confusion ramps up, and my rationalizations race to keep up. These aren’t all rationalizations, but rather they are just related points that I can’t fully flesh out here.
    - I am not submissive. Many if not most people would see me as the “alpha” using the term I so strongly dislike.
    - on the other hand, if I were so alpha, then she wouldn’t be able to discipline me at her sole discretion.
    - I don’t in any way see her as a mother figure, and certainly not MY mother, but at the same time, the whole thing just feels super maternal sometimes.

    So, in the end, I don’t really know what my role is. The parts that I do understand, like being one subject to his wife’s discipline, I sometimes struggle with accepting. But mostly, I just struggle to understand the bigger picture of our roles.

    I am the one who submits, but I am not submissive? How’s that for rationalization?

    -ZM

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    1. Good stuff! Man, once you got going you really covered every square inch! It's going to require some time to respond and since tomorrow is Saturday, I think I may miss out. I did read them all and find some similar thoughts and differences, but everything made sense. Too bad you didn't get to this until today. But thanks for really diving in, ZM.

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  18. One variety of rationalization not addressed this week is a crucial one. It is the rationalization that occurs when she orders a spanking and you are not ready, in the mood or disagree with her about the behavior or her interpretation of the “rules”. In short all the times she decides to spank when you absolutely positively don’t want to be spanked. Most of my rationalizations at that point get expressed as excuses or pleas of extenuating circumstances. They almost never work with her and in truth we have talked many times about the importance of following through, something she has learned perhaps too well. Nevertheless some spankings still start with me feeling this is unfair or the wrong time or too severe and so on. And there is nothing worse for me than getting spanked when I am fighting it from the start. But the really interesting thing is that during or after the spanking is over, the rationalization is almost always gone and I realize she was right in the beginning and her use of her authority was completely legitimate. Afterward, mentally I am in an entirely different space and feel gratitude to her for pushing through my resistance. Over some time this has helped me to realize not only that I rationalize my behavior but I also try anything to avoid an imminent ass warning I don’t want even when I completely deserve and need it. (I don’t want to distort our experience. I accept the majority of my spankings with a good attitude and complete obedience, so the rationalizing behavior is a small part of our whole disciplinary relationship.)Also since some bad experiences with a former girlfriend I have never tried to stop a spanking already happening, so my wife knows she may get attitude but in the end she will prevail. But the insights I have gained from all this have probably reduced the number of times I offer even verbal resistance to a spanking although it still does happen and maybe is a good safety valve to have in place in any DD relationship
    Alan

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    1. Hi Alan, I think the time right before a punishment is exactly when my rationalizations peak! And you are right that the excuses usually don't work and if she just powers forward with it, the excuses all seem to evaporate. Interestingly, on the few times I have talked myself out of a spanking, I felt much worse than if it had happened.

      One thing we have talked about, but never really followed through on, is if I don't agree with the reason for a spanking, I can "appeal," but if she doesn't agree with my excuses, then I would get two spankings. One for the original infraction, and one for trying to get out of it. But also, I am really trying to not offer verbal resistance, since it is counterproductive. This thing we expect them to do is already difficult enough, without us making it even more so.

      -ZM

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    2. I totally agree with what both of you are saying. It is interesting just how different the mindset is immediately before and immediately after a spanking. The content of my thoughts is so different, it's like two entirely different people are inhabiting my body.

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    3. I am not given an "appeal" before a spanking, but I have complete freedom to respectfully make a case after if I wish. As noted I usually have no case to make afterward as I come to agree with what she decided. In the very few instances ( mostly much earlier) I did lodge a protest post spanking she listened and a few times apologized for what she admitted was an unfair punishment. But we both look on that as learning experiences going forward. You can't un-ring a bell and as long as she hears me out I try to harbor no resentment after a spanking. I used to tell my former girlfriend ( while she was getting her toes wet in discipline) that she couldn't really make a mistake administering a spanking as long as it was done with love.
      Alan

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    4. Dan,
      It can be almost a mystical experience because before you are convinced its unnecessary and unfair and afterward its as if the "scales" drop off your eyes.
      Alan

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  19. After a few days it came to me about "rationalizing".

    Sometimes, for the likes of us, nothing is as good for the soul as a old fashioned spanking; done well.

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  20. Dan,
    Perhaps I should avoid using the "h" word (hair), but I have a relevant FLR contribution to make. I went to our local diner with a friend for lunch today. Two doors down was the shop I go to for a haircut or trim. I walked down and went inside. My regular barber was free and I asked him if the shop does head shaving? I didn't know. He said sure. Do you want to? I told him I thought about waiting for spring. He said, "Better off to do it soon. Let your scalp get some tan color before the hot sun starts. It's warm now. If you get cold, wear a hat. Wear one anyway." So I set up an appointment for next Saturday morning starting with a complete shave to the scalp. My wife ordered a good skull shaving kit that comes with other shaving tools and it will arrive in a couple of days. She's all smiles and has thought about a scene for next Saturday night, like "Mistress punishes bald sub" or something like that. It's OK with me. At least some kinky fun will make me feel better. I guess the rationalization is that we can blend real life and indulge our kinky side.
    LH

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    1. Wow! That's a big change. I'm still holding onto enough of my hair that I'm not quite ready for the bald look. Plus, my wife looks very skeptical whenever I bring up the possibility. But, way better that than a perpetually retreating hairline or comb-overs.

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    2. Dan,
      Yes. Bald is big change for me. My wife sincerely believes I will look better. The barber's suggestion makes sense though, because it would be better to get used to being bald before spring and before we go away on vacation. There's always the option that you could try the bald look and allow regrowth to happen if you or your wife dislike it. The style is so common today anyhow. My hairline has retreated a lot based on vacation photos taken a couple of years ago.

      I'm fine with my wife's idea to have a session next Saturday night, which she says is to celebrate my "denuded" head lol. I had to look that word up. Who wouldn't want a wife that actually indulges kink and enjoys a little? But she's planning to have me roll a damn rubber ball around in various patterns using only my nose. It's a little game challenge she came up with. One mistake = one light wack of the cane. I told her it never works out well for the player, but she says it's OK because it has been quite a stretch of time since my fanny was attended too. I told her, "Oh, that make all the different." ;-)
      LH

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    3. I'm a relatively well-educated guy, and I had to look it up too. :-)

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    4. Dan,
      I never thought I’d have more to say about this. This morning I was having coffee and getting onto the laptop to check for emails, news. I saw a screensaver containing numbers for days, hours, minutes and seconds (4 days, 5 hours, etc.). I asked my wife if she added it and she said, “Yes, you were still sleeping.” I asked, “What’s it for?” She said, “It’s for you.” I said, “Me?” She said, “Yes, it’s the time remaining before you officially become my denuded husband.” She rubbed the top of my head and laughed LOL. I guess I won’t forget that word, “denuded”. I never would have easily made the connection. It was counting down to Saturday, 10 AM, when my appointment is scheduled with the barber. My wife told me she also has an appointment to get her hair and nails done in the afternoon. She wants to look her best for the discipline session she’s planning for later Saturday evening. I kissed her and told her, “Man, you’re a keeper!” On-the-one-hand, it’s totally sweet because she knows that I’m not happy about my hair (although she's turned on about this). On-the-other-hand, I just wish I had made that appoint before the 29th. LH

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    5. Dan,
      I almost chickened out about the barber appointment this morning. As much of a positive and fun spin my wife has been putting on it, nobody wants to admit they are getting old (50s isn’t exactly old). I told my wife I was thinking about waiting on the shave while we she and I were having morning coffee. I gave excuses; it’s cold again, It's such such a big change, maybe I have more time, maybe I could grow what hair I have longer and do “something”. She said something on the order of, “Look, you could just buzz it, but you have hair that’s uneven the way it covers your head in back and you have three different colors. Some are gray, some are brown and some white. The decision is yours, but you’ll look will way better and younger shaved, and you’ll save money.” I vacillated and said, “You think so really?” Yes, and she jokingly said, “I have to conjure up Mistress here.” After a couple of minutes of thinking, she was laughing and said something like, “No hubby of mine can have a nasty looking comb over or deserves any hair! You keep that appointment!” “Yes Mistress,” I replied. She's right though. It's time. I’m feeling a little old, but maybe not so old. I began to have a erection after our talk that's been with me off and on all morning. So, I called the shop a few minutes ago and confirmed the appointment. Confirming it isn't required, but I often do a telephone confirmation of appointments.
      Thanks.
      LH

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  21. Dan,
    I won't bother commenting further on this old posting. I'm back from the barbers a changed man! It wasn't bad at all. They go gentle the first head shave and apply soothing hot towels. My scalp wasn't all that pale compared to the rest of my face. My wife says she really likes it and believes I will like it even better as I get used to it. It's growing on me (no pun intended). She always liked the shaved head look on guys. My remaining hair was thin and was buzzed off in no time. I wore a baseball cap at the barbers and my wife gave me a nice pullover cap called a beanie as a surprise gift just before she headed out to her hair appointment. It's made of soft cashmere and it's just the right size. I will occasionally go back to the barber for future shaves, especially when I run short on time. So, its out to dinner and then home where she said she's planning a long "discipline session", and then I'll be playing the "rubber ball game" for her. I told her "that sounds like two discipline sessions," and she laughed. I told her "I hope she goes easy, since now I'm denuded".
    LH

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    1. Nice. I'm still planning to give Rogaine a few more years.

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  22. Dan,
    Hope this comment isn't a dup.
    I went to my appointment and came back a shaved man. My wife likes it.
    LH

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