Honesty is grounded in
humility and indeed in humiliation, and in admitting exactly where we are
powerless. - David Whyte
Hello all. Welcome back to The Disciplinary Couple’s Club. Our weekly on-line gathering of men and women who are in, or would like to be in, a Domestic Discipline relationship.
I hope you had a great
week. Mine was exhausting. Man, do I ever need this long weekend. I was traveling all week, jumping from time zone to time zone, all of it work related and much of it involving being "on" for hours among people I don't know well. For an introvert like me, that's like the drain on a car battery when the lights are left on all night with the radio blaring. Though, I also had moments of self-control, like bowing out of one social engagement that felt avoidable, allowing me to just hang out in the hotel by myself, do some reading, and get some sleep. I also got a bit of recovery time last night, again skipping another opportunity for socializing and, in the process, getting some extra sleep. Little victories. (The week of non-stop travel also kept me from responding to some of last week's comments. I'll try to catch up on that over the weekend.
Unfortunately, I can't say that being better-behaved than usual and getting some extra sleep last night left me brimming with creative and novel blog topics. I saw the suggestion to do corner time, but we've done it before and, for whatever reason, I just wasn't feeling it on that one this week. I will do it, just not this week. Sometimes, even if I'm not particularly inspired by my own ideas, I'm not resonating to a particular suggested topic for this week.
Anyway . . . I had been thinking about doing a topic on "humiliation," based on some recent comments by both ZM and Danielle. ZM has said that humiliation fantasies are a thing for him, and Danielle has recounted that Wayne too gets off on being humiliated in various ways. I myself tend not to use the term "humiliation." It has a harsh tone to me. I do think a lot about "humbling," and it's an express goal of our Domestic Discipline and, increasingly, our FLR. It's about making the power dynamic "real," as in something I internalize and accept at a very fundamental level.
I'm not sure whether I mean the same thing by "humbling" that others mean by "humiliation." The purpose "humbling" serves for me is more conceptual than visceral. I know that I get myself into trouble due to arrogance, temper, and lack of respect for authority. Given the number of times those things have created problems for me, some "humbling" seems in order as a tool to help me exercise a little more self-control and get a handle on some negative emotional reactions. I suspect when others t alk about wanting to be "humiliated," the drive they are referring to is more about sex than about performance improvement or accountability, though I'm sure you will all tell me if I'm wrong about that. I'm also not sure whether "embarrassment," is just a milder form of humiliation, or something categorically different.
For me, the difference between humbling, on the one hand, and humiliation/embarrassment on the other, is the humbling I am looking for is basically a tool for increased accountability, a deterrent to bad behavior, and hopefully a state of mind that helps mitigate some of my problems with temper and lack of respect for authority. But, conversely, as ZM recently alluded to, embarrassment and self-consciousness about our behavior can inhibit our willingness to own up to that behavior:
"I can really relate to what
Al said; the reason I might not accurately self-report is not so much because I
don’t want punishment (also true), but more so because I hate to admit my
failings. When I screw up, I am disappointed in myself, and my normally giant
ego and excessive sense of self-worth is already suffering, and the last thing
I want it to see disappointment on her face as well. And then of course if she
does punish me, the physical pain is one thing, but the pain to my ego is even
greater, though needed and beneficial."
Embarrassment and humiliation are paradoxical in the same way our disciplinary drives are paradoxes to so many of us. We want it, until we get it. And, as with spanking, for some the emotional power of embarrassment or humiliation seems to come from it being imposed contrary to our own wishes in that moment. We don't like embarrassment, yet the prospect of it or its stronger cousin "humiliation," seems to fuel many of our DD and FLR fantasies. In fact, isn't it possible that the prospect of embarrassment is what underlies so many other things we find morbidly compelling about DD and have talked about here: crying, witnesses, public displays of her authority, etc.?
For me, humbling is a conscious goal, and it can take subtle forms. There is, for example, something
powerfully humbling about waiting for a spanking I know is coming. I instantly
start behaving better, and I feel better. Just by ordering the spanking she has put me in place. Taken me down a peg. And, that humbling feels good. Being that
kinder, more considerate person all the time should be easy, but it's not. Like many men who are attracted to DD, there
is a lot of testosterone coursing through these veins. It can help me take the kind of risks that
build a successful career, but it can also lead to a lot of impetuous and
impulsive decisions that come back to haunt me. It can help me take on jerks and posers, but it also leads me to ignore or confront legitimate authority.
Humbling me also has major benefits for my wife. She has said that when it comes to the spanking process, it is not delivering the spanking that she likes but, rather, ordering me to take off all
my clothes and get in position and watching me comply. She knows such compliance is hard for my ego to take. Similarly, one reason that she likes "service submission" is she knows that I hate it and that my ego rebels every time she gives me an order. She's been the victim of my ego for a long time, and putting that ego in its place is a form of "payback" just as giving a hard spanking can be a form of payback.
But, we haven't gone much beyond that, and for most of our DD relationship had you asked me whether I have any desire for real humiliation or embarrassment, I would have said no. Now? I'm not as sure. An exchange I had with Danielle about the story that accompanied the photo I posted a few weeks ago of a guy with a cowboy hat draped over a hay bale with his naked ass displaying stripes from a recent caning or whipping got me thinking about this more. As I recounted, the story involved a man and woman who were in some kind of kinky relationship with a dominant male. The wife had asked the other man to take care of some of her husband's behavioral problems. He showed up unannounced at a dinner party they were having with another couple, took the embarrassed husband to a barn on the couple’s property, then spanked him to tears with a belt before returning him to the party.
And, there was the time at Christmas when I made some smart ass remark when directed to help with something, and my wife quipped that I could do it or she could spank me. While, I'm not sure anyone overheard, I'm not sure that they didn't. The fact that I still think about it two years later says a lot about the power of being embarrassed by being publicly "outed" to family and friends. And, the prospect of it being overheard is embarrassing but that makes it exciting.
Then there is my fascination with crying, which drove a huge amount of my initial obsession after discovering DD. I have always thought my crying fetish is very much about the embarrassment and vulnerability associated with being spanked to real tears. And, I absolutely believe that one of the primary reasons I have not let go and sobbed during a spanking is, in fact, because the embarrassment of doing that holds me back every time I get close.
We also talked about the embarrassment of
someone knowing about a particular spanking in the moment or that one
is coming. Others knowing about a spanking definitely does something
for me, and it has something to do with the fact that it is inherently
embarrassing and humbling. While I've never thought I was into humiliation, beyond the practical benefits of humbling, I can't deny that there seems to be a pattern of fictional humiliation scenes getting my attention or having free rein in my dreams, including particularly M/m spanking scenarios, being spanked in public, and others being told about our DD relationship.
How about you? Does your partner do things that are
deliberately designed to humble or embarrass you? If so, give us some examples. If not, do you want her to? I'm not talking
about the embarrassment that is inherent in DD and in any power exchange to
some extent but, rather, things above and beyond or separate from the spanking
itself that are consciously designed to embarrass, humble or humiliate. For the wives, do you enjoying humbling,
embarrassing or humiliating your husband?
If so, why?
For me I become humble after a spanking. Prior to the spanking I might be argumentative or have some smart remarks but after being spanked I become quiet and don't say much for a few hours.
ReplyDeleteEmbarrassment and humiliation for me is when my wife might say in public "if you don't knock it off right now you will get the spanking of your life when we get home" or when we are out and she takes me to a family bathroom to spank me and when we come out there are people there who probably heard me being spanked. That's very embarrassing and humiliating. Being spanked in front of her friends is very embarrassing and humiliating. Even if I am not spanked in front of someone and she takes me to the bedroom to spank me I'm embarrassed even though I'm not sure they new what she did.
Thanks, Dan.
DeleteI agree with Dan that to feel humility is far different than to feel humiliated, though they may come from the same root word. So to me, to be humbled is far different than to be humiliated. My wife does both, though I prefer the term embarrassed to humiliated.
ReplyDeleteShe has a humbling ritual that she repeats a couple times a year. She will have me kneel in front of her and she will give a little speech about how i am her knight in shining armor and her servant-husband and how much she appreciates me fulfilling that role, and then she will "knight" me by tapping each shoulder... with a punishment implement (cane or paddle). It may sound silly, but we both love this ritual. I feel a deep sense of humility and a acceptance of my role. My love for her and desire to perform my role to the best of my ability are deepened.
Many of the semi-public punishments and punishment talk are very embarrassing to me. But I also admit to being drawn to them. When all four of my cheeks are blushed (and my heart pounds and blood is running everywhere through my body), I feel incredibly alive and also turned on sexually. Like when she adds embarrassment to punishment - for instance, spanking me in a family bathroom, knowing that there are people outside and making me exit first with my face a deep red as she makes a comment like "let that be a lesson to you," sometimes with her hairbrush still in her hand! I am so humiliated I feel like I want to die! But I also love it and love her for exerting her authority so publicly and effectively.
A husband who knows
It doesn't sound silly, though as KD and I have discussed before, the "knight" and his queen metaphor has just never worked for me. Maybe because in the movies, Lancelot always seems to be portrayed as kind of wimpy and effeminate. But, different strokes for different folks.
DeleteSeems to be a lot of "family bathroom" stuff going around all of a sudden, at least among commenters on this blog. Not sure what to make of that.
The family bathroom with a locking door has dramatically increased spanking in public places in recent years, I would say, and especially among adult couples. I on two occasions in the old days saw a woman bring a young son into the ladies room and spank him, but never post-pubescent and certainly not a husband, which would have caused an outcry. Mothers now are more leery of spanking children in public because of the fear of being reported. So the family bathroom affords a perfect place for correcting males of all ages.
DeleteMy husband and I are enjoying your blog, which I now read to him out loud while he is otherwise engaged.
The Wife Who Knows
As many in this lifestyle know, being a spanked adult male can be embarrassing in itself. Add on the fact that if and when someone else learns about it, embarrassment can turn to humility. I feel humbleness is the act of her bringing you to accepting your plight, even when you know it is your own fault. Most often, punishments are done in private, but there have been a few times when a public or semi public spanking is necessary and she has no qualms in delivering such. Even in a dungeon or party atmosphere, among lifestyle folks, there is increased humility in being stripped and spanked for punishment in full view of others. Even if not seen by anyone, but heard, the humility comes when you have to face those who know you have just received a spanking. The sound of a belt striking bare flesh is unmistakable. Adding the red and tear streaked face, people who have overheard, know exactly what has just occurred. As 'A Husband Who Knows' stated above, it is necessary at times and we hate the humiliation, but love our Dominant for displaying her authority in any situation.
ReplyDeleteI've never engaged in any public spanking scenario, but for some reason the thought of being spanked in a context where it can be heard but not seen seems MORE embarrassing to me than being spanked at a party or dungeon scene. Perhaps because the former could be real while the latter just seems like funishment, and if everyone is engaged in it then I'm not sure what I would feel embarrassed about.
DeleteRight, Dan. The spanking at a friends home was much more embarrassing than any I have had in a dungeon. The looks from vanillas, and some lifestyle folks, when I exited the room where I was spanked, really were embarrassing. It was a discipline spanking and very real. It was my most embarrassing spanking and no one saw it!!
DeleteBeing spanked at a spanking party can be embarrassing because I don't want strangers to know how I handle it, with kicking legs and begging and especially the spankee dance I do after she lets me off her lap. That always elicits giggles from the ladies and guffaws from the men and is quite embarrassing!
DeleteA husband who knows
This is The Wife Who Knows. I think a spanking should be humbling, especially for an adult. My husband should feel humbled to be treated like a naughty little boy because he just acted like one. If a spanking doesn't humble the recipient, it probably isn't effective. To feel humble is a positive thing, and punishment gets my husband there.
ReplyDeleteHumiliation to me is something far different. It is typically a negative emotion because one has been belittled, made fun of, put down, etc. In simple DD, I wouldn't do it. But what couple has a simple DD relationship? I get off on exerting my power over my husband, and he gets off on it too. The more public it is, the more exciting he is. So when I humiliate him it is typically more for our sexual and mental enjoyment rather than for actual behavior modification. After I have humiliated him like he described above, I can't wait to get him home so he can pleasure me!
The Wife Who Knows
I agree humiliation would seem to be something that brings about a negative emotion or involves belittling or being put down. Which is why I admit I don't quite understand the attraction to it, while others are clearly into it.
DeleteAnd you are clearly into it in your dreams and selection of fiction.
DeleteA husband who knows
perhaps we should do a topic on "men who are in massive denial about their desires..." :)
DeleteNot so sure that follows. Two nights ago I dreamed about something I had to do as a kid that I not only have no desire to ever do again, I hated it then and am very happy to never do it again. And, I didn't select the story above. It was in some fairly generic adult magazine like Penthouse Variations. And, it probably doesn't qualify as "massive denial" if I just blogged about it.
DeleteHi Dan,
ReplyDeleteI think I agree with most everyone above, including you, that humbling and humiliation are not exactly the same, even though the dictionaries seem to describe them quite similarly. To me, I think of humbling as the removal of false or excessive pride, bravado, or entitlement. This can happen either internally of our own volition, without anyone else even being involved, which is pretty much always a good thing, or due to external factors, like a football team being sure they will be the champions, but then being humbled by a perceived lesser team. I think the automatic feeling that naturally comes with an EARNED disciplinary spanking, regardless of age or other factors, would likely fit in the humbling category, since it is putting the recipient in their place (and they did ask for it after all).
On the other hand, anything done with the express purpose of making someone feel lower than they really are would be considered humiliation. A few examples of this might be a fraternity or sorority hazing, or for that matter to a certain degree even military boot camp. And yes, I think embarrassing could well be described as humiliation's little sibling. It seems to mostly be a matter of degree. Unlike humbling, which can be a self-driven process, I think embarrassment or humiliation generally must involve other people. If nobody knows about or witnesses something, or at least has the possibility of finding out about it, there is no reason for humiliation or embarrassment.
Humbling is safer and obviously a little bit more acceptable to most people than is humiliation. However, in a healthy relationship and if wanted by both parties (even if not at the time) I think there is room for both humbling and humiliation. I liked what The Wife Who Knows said: "In simple DD, I wouldn't do it. But what couple has a simple DD relationship? I get off on exerting my power over my husband, and he gets off on it too." That is pretty much exactly where my wife and I are.
But I do think that it is important to never cross over into degrading, which is where you treat another with contempt. The one exception to this might be in a femdom roleplay, IF it is completely understood by both parties that it is play and in no way expressing real feelings. Even then, I would be very careful to not hit too close to the truth.
Having said all this, I genuinely hope that this will not turn into a week-long discussion about definitions and terminology. Rather, I am hopeful that many people will chime in with concrete examples of how they use humbling, embarrassment, and humiliation (however they might define them) in their DD/FLR relationship!
My wife has already used humiliation quite extensively, though to this point at least it has always been private and has never involved other people. I will write some of the specifics in a day or two when I have more time, but did want to say bravo for a great topic. This one is near and dear to me!
-ZM
I agree I hope we don't get into a week-long exercise in hair splitting. That said, I do like your second paragraph though I wonder whether embarrassment is kind of by-product. And, it seems like humiliation does have an element of intentionality focused on belittling or embarrassing another person for the very purpose of belittling or embarrassing them.
DeleteI look forward to hearing about your specific examples. Do any of them involve family bathrooms? ;-)
Hi Dan,
DeleteNo. None of them involve family bathrooms! We are not even close to being as open as that would be, since the sounds would clearly tell the story of what was happening. In fact, I would be VERY worried that people (like store workers or customers) might call the police if they heard a spanking being administered. Now THAT would be unwelcome humiliation...
We so far seem to have dodged the bullet at least on the week-long discussion regarding definitions. However something about this topic (humiliation) seems to rub people the wrong way. Instead of answering the questions you posted, or simply saying "no. we only use spanking and don't do anything to increase the humiliation," it seems like most everyone wants to explain WHY they think humiliation is bad, and in so doing seem to be passing a value judgement upon all who might use humiliation.
-ZM
No, I don't tend to humble, embarrass or humiliate my husband beyond what is already part of a DD spanking. For us, the spanking is all about the pain: - all the punishment should be contained within the pain, without other punishments such as these slipped in. The idea is that I inflict as much pain as I need to to punish the bad behaviour and then that is it: - a line is drawn under the behaviour. If I want to put in a bit more just to make sure the bad behaviour has been well and truly punished, I will spank a bit longer or harder.
ReplyDeleteOutside of the spanking, my husband is the head of the family and I would have reservations about humiliating him, given the danger that it will compromise this. DD is where the bad behaviour is punished to get him on the right track as leader and things finish until the next spanking.
Thanks, Anonymous. While I definitely get not wanting to embarrass or humiliate beyond whatever is inherent in a DD spanking, I'm not entirely clear about the last paragraph. If it is up to you to get him back on the right track as leader, doesn't that make you at least a co-leader, if not the actual leader? Seems kind of like the relationship between a coach and the quarterback, in which the quarterback leads on the field but the coach is ultimately in charge of the quarterback's performance.
DeleteHi Dan,
DeleteI understand the distinction she is making between the times a husband is being punished and all other times, and how he is the head of the family at all other times. So he goes from brave leader of the family to spanked naughty little boy, and then punishment restores him to brave leader of the family.
In theory, that should be possible at least in a "pure" DD relationship (hahaha, now we will have everyone going off about what a pure DD relationship is...). By "pure DD" I mean that the husband is punished exactly as stipulated for previously mutually agreed upon infractions. Even there I think it would be a little difficult to maintain that clear head of household distinction, since life is seldom black and white, and if she has any discretion whatsoever in when to take your pants down and spank you, it sure seems like that might in a way put her somewhat in charge.
The part I struggle with is the "I would have reservations about humiliating him, given the danger that it will compromise this." I really can't think of many things more inherently humiliating than a grown man being spanked like a little boy, especially when it is not for play but rather is real punishment for something he has done. Whatever "extra" humiliations that might be heaped on top are probably no more humiliating than the fact that he is being spanked to start with.
My wife is not necessarily quick to use DD, since quite frankly quite often she forgets that it is even an option, so she lets herself become irritated instead of taking the problem in hand. However, once she decides to punish me, she doesn't hesitate to add humiliation to make the punishment as effective and memorable as possible.
My opinion is use extra humiliation or don't, whatever works for you. But I personally think it is delusional to believe that a man can be spanked like a child, all the while somehow preserving his dignity.
-ZM
Dan, I see this as more a "helpmeet" function (a word I think was first used regarding Eve), rather than a coach, though there are definitely some similarities with a coach function. It is ultimately his responsibility to get and keep himself on the right track: - one way adult spanking differs from child spanking is that a child is not yet fully old enough to be considered fully responsible, meaning it tends to happen because men have sought it out on their own volition. That is my experience anyway. He took responsibility for his own conduct by introducing another safeguard in the form of me spanking him.
DeleteBad_boy_G_punished_by_Z, we don't tend to do spanking on the basis of a list of infractions agreed in advance. We respect other points of view, but my view is a husband should be adult enough to know what sort of things I would spank him for (precedent also helps). We discussed the purpose of the DD spankings and he has more or less given me a free hand to decide how I want to manage things. This is a mutual decision, so he could happily question the arrangement at a high level if he wanted, but me personally, with my discretion, I exercise it to refrain from humiliating him besides the spanking. Therefore, I wouldn't involve others in what we do (especially as even a real DD spanking is an intimate act). Generally, I tend to do it when the children are asleep in the evenings and we are alone. I also dislike positions that involve restraint or submissiveness, such as over the knee, as this (I assume you agree) makes it look and feel like I am spanking a child: - I prefer positions that leave him entirely free to step away, such as standing or leaning against a wall. I acknowledge that there is some humiliation intrinsic to the spanking, but I don't seek to add to it.
Thank you for your well thought out reply. While my wife and I do things a bit differently, I understand and respect your position on this topic.
DeleteI hope I didn't come across as criticizing your choices and style of practicing DD.
-ZM
No Bad Boy, you definitely don't. I am always interested to discuss subjects like these with people here and elsewhere. As far as I am concerned, if you don't want to subject your points to question or you can't take criticism, you shouldn't out them online.
DeleteHow much humiliation there is depends on how common people view our ways of doing things. If every husband were receiving such spankings, it is unlikely they would find it humiliating. I understand Dan agrees, but my personal view is I would like to see FM DD spankings like these becoming common: - if it is such a great arrangement, why would we prefer to remain a minority? We are all entitled to our views and this is just my view. We
For what it's worth, I don't recall anyone commenter here agreeing with my preference that DD stay relatively unexplored by the general population. I may be a minority of one in hoping it remains our own small club. Of course, I recognize the irony that I want it to remain rare, while I write a public blog proclaiming its virtues . . .
DeleteUnderstood Dan. I am guessing it is something about the novelty value and/or the feeling of being an individual (for want of more tactful ways of putting it)? I just realised that my autocorrect system changed various words to drastically alter meanings in my comment immediately above: - my bad for not checking more thoroughly.
DeleteTo me, the ideal situation is for it to become so common that we don't even need to consider what bystanders might think. Or even for people to have the default assumption that a husband is spanked? With the benefits I have seen in my husband's conduct as a result of the spankings I give him, I have no doubt that so many social ills would more or less disappear overnight if all husbands were spanked. I know I risk going off-topic here, but men tend to be creatures motivated by lust: - they are often highly motivated to do what is necessary to get a release and if all husbands were under a rule that this could not happen until all offences were punished, they would simply stop doing many of the stupid things men typically do.
Obviously, if I am in a hotel room that is not well soundproofed, I wouldn't want to be disturbing other people's evenings with persistent loud noise that kept them awake, but it would definitely be a luxury to never have to consider how to keep the volume down to the extent that nobody can hear us. Ditto the taboo of children finding out their mother performs DD on their father: - if it were an accepted part of family life, parents wouldn't have to go through all the trouble to ensure the children are asleep first (and therefore unaware that it happens).
We tend not to use OTK either, because it isn't very effective for us. She can't develop enough speed and force to deliver a really hard swat. It's too bad, because it is such an iconic position.
DeleteWanting DD to remain fairly uncommon probably does have something to do with expressing individuality. I don't like driving popular cars or motorcycles, which is hard to avoid without paying outlandish amounts for something exotic, so I end up customizing my ride in some way so it stands out. Also, there is just something a bit thrilling about kept secrets, and it's always the forbidden fruit that is the most tempting.
Hi Dan
ReplyDeleteI feel it already humiliating as a grown man, disobedience to my wife to get spanked my bare bottom. In addition, I have to wear outside the house almost constantly shaming underwear (lingerie in pink, or with floral pattern, girls clothes, sometimes even in addition a diaper panties). To stand in the corner with my bare, spanked butt is very humble. These are all penalties that cause I obey my wife. I am convinced, every disciplined man, his education also feels humiliating, which at least does not exclude a sexual aroused me. I think that's the point of feeling sexually stimulating to be humiliated by his wife, because otherwise a man outside the relationship would be a failure.
strictpunishedhubby
In our case, humiliation was antithetical to her goals for me. She always built me up and did things to raise and support my confidence.
ReplyDeleteI was plenty embarrassed in front of her when bare-assed and receiving lectures.
There were a few occasions where she playfully hinted or threatened to reveal it. But she was protective of me like a mother bear.
Hi Tomy,
DeleteI can see where you are coming from, but I am not so sure that humiliation is all so negative. I would 100% agree if the humiliation was all the time. As it is, my wife also builds me up and does things to raise and support my confidence at every other time. However, while she is punishing me, she won't hesitate to use humiliation (mild, never degradation) to help me learn a lesson, which ultimately also raises me up and supports my confidence! I think this is precisely why my wife is unlikely to ever reveal this thing we do to others, because having others know might make me less confident in social circles. If only there was a way to tell someone and then have them forget!
This is not so different from the boot camp example I used above, where they systematically tear you down but also rebuild you into someone much stronger and more confident than you ever dreamed possible.
-ZM
Indeed. It sounds similar just in other words
DeleteThe boot camp metaphor is an example of why I see humiliation as something separate and different from humbling. Boot camp is designed to tear new soldiers down, but not for the purpose of belittling or hurting them. It serves the larger goal of helping them replace undisciplined behavior with something more positive.
DeleteI certainly hope (and assume) that the purpose for most wives using DD is exactly the same as the purpose of boot camp, "to replace undisciplined behavior with something more positive," as you said. And if the wife uses things which may be humbling to help drive a lesson home, I am sure that it is in no way intended to belittle or hurt her husband.
DeleteThere probably is a difference between humiliating and humbling, but perhaps for the purpose of facilitating productive discussion, we could all just agree that he humbling or humiliation we refer to here (regardless of which word we use) is intended to bring about good and positive change, and is not intended to cause any harm!
-ZM
I agree that there probably is no intent to cause harm, but I do wonder whether everyone who engages in humiliation is doing so in order to bring about change. I get the sense that some couples are into it because the humiliation is a big turn-on for some men.
DeleteYes, that is probably true in many cases. Still, for us I view humiliation as being a punishment reinforcer, so at least I will continue deluding myself and think it is serving some productive purpose!
DeleteTomorrow I'll actually write about the ways she has used humiliation (or humbling) as I haven't had time yet.
-ZM
Shilo was incapable of humiliation, although he occasionally went out of his way to avoid discipline.
ReplyDeleteI refer to disciplining Shilo in the past tense because we stopped the DD over a year ago due to his advanced (prostate) cancer. He's alive and breathing. ☺
DeleteWhew!
DeleteOur spanking ritual inherently includes an element of humbling. In theory, I could be spanked with my pants on and my wife could achieve the same amount of pain by adjusting the implement or the swing intensity. However, spankings have always been with my pants and underwear down. The act of having to present my bear bottom for the spanking is humbling.
ReplyDeleteShe has always spanked in private and any public signalling of an upcoming session is intentionally discrete. She and I are both concerned with my image in the eyes of others. We have discussed whether there could ever be exceptions. If strangers were to know that I had just been spanked, the embarrassment would add to the impact. But we worry that we could encounter people we know even in places that we are expecting to see only strangers. If we had friends that we knew practiced DD, it would be embarrassing to have them see or hear a spanking, but we wouldn't worry about them thinking less of me. Of course, it is possible that we do have friends that practice DD, but we have no way of knowing about it because they have the same concerns.
Indeed. Though I am not arguing the subject discussed here is kinky spanking, one unavoidable situation is that a bare-bottom spanking done by a wife on her husband is an intimate act that is not for sharing with others, any more than say talking about one's sex life. Though I happily talk about what happens, so as to promote the lifestyle: - talking about it openly here anonymously is vastly different, given the lack of anyone else we are acquainted with knowing anything about it.
DeleteIt is odd that we put so much emphasis on what even strangers might think of us. As if it matters . . . But, we do. I have related before that I wear a pendent that has a symbol that is known in the BDSM community to symbolize a submissive man, though that't not quite how I categorize myself. Every once in a while, someone inadvertently sees it and asks about it. It happened a few weeks ago when I was getting my hair cut. The stylist saw it and asked what it was, and I stammered some lame response about it being a gift and I didn't really know what it is supposed to mean. I have no idea why I cared, as I don't even know the person and likely will never see her again. And, I tell myself that I shouldn't get nervous about others seeing it, because the only people who would know what it is are probably into a similar kink, otherwise they wouldn't know about the symbol in the first place
ReplyDeleteDan, I think you need to have a sort of stock reply to give to folks who ask you about your pendant. One that you can just come out with and will not lead to very much further discussion. Wearing a symbolic pendant and claiming not to know what it symbolises could potentially make the wearer of the pendant appear to be a bit dorky. Something that you most certainly are not !
DeleteNot all that complicated. "Every work of art can be "symbolic". It's simple to just shrug and say I don't know. It's just an artist's design"
DeleteIf they already know you are meeting someone interesting.
True Tomy.
DeleteI agree that I should have come up with a stock reply a long time ago, and I don't know why I haven't, given that this is not the first time someone has asked about it. Tomy's reply is as good as anything I can think of.
DeleteIn regard to tears, when I cry during a private spanking I feel humbled but not humiliated. I know I have disappointed my wife by not being the best husband I can be. I am aware of my shortcomings and feel humble and desiring to improve myself. This feeling is especially strong as my wife comforts me after the spanking, which she usually does when the tears have flowed. I feel calm, peaceful, and loved.
ReplyDeleteHowever, if I am spanked to tears in front of others, which has happened though rare, I feel humiliated - completely different. I feel like they have witnessed me not taking it like a man, being weak, and they will somehow think less of me. I don't feel the same peace at all.
I know this difference is in my head rather than from anything witnesses have ever said or done. But it is there nonetheless.
A husband who knows
I've never had insecurity about my manhood, even though I am not exactly built like a linebacker. And I am blessed/cursed with a very soft heart. So while I didn't necessarily cry a all that often during spanking. I would tear up during movies sometimes.
ReplyDeleteShe could always tell and found it endearing. Yeah I was a little embarrassed by it. But her tenderness more than erased that.
Same here. I have yet to cry from a spanking, yet I will frequently get choked up at sappy movies and listening to some songs.
DeleteI have cried during a spanking, but it is very rare, at least at this point. Movies, however, can easily move me to tears. I guess I am just sentimental, and I am ok with that. I wold rather have a heart that is a little too soft than too hard.
Delete-ZM
Absolutely agree, though I wish my sentimentality had better taste. I tend to tear up most at sappy country music songs.
DeleteMe too Dan. "Sappy" works. "Miracle on 34th Street" always gets me.
DeleteHi Dan,
ReplyDeleteNow finally on to this weeks question!
My wife occasionally does things deliberately designed to humble or embarrass me, but it is limited, particularly because we have never told anyone about what we do, so that pretty well eliminates all of the public spankings and saying things in front of other people. As I am typing this, I had one idea that might still somehow feel a bit more public while still maintaining our privacy. She could, perhaps in the middle of a punishment, put me in the corner or even leave me in position for spanking and then call someone on the phone for a while. Has anyone tried this? I am thinking that it might add a certain feeling of vulnerability, since it would feel kind of like that person on the other end of the line was in the room, even though they would be clueless that anything was going on.
What she has done regarding humiliation is mostly related to clothing either during a spanking, during corner-time before a spanking, or after a spanking. At different times, she has made me wear red lacy panties, pantyhose, and a diaper. I am not particularly into any of these things, so the humiliation really just feels like an extension of the punishment. Interestingly, at least two of those helped amplify the physical sensation as well. The pantyhose I wore during a spanking (paddle and cane) seemed to result in less marking, and in addition it seemed quieter, and at the same time hurt more than usual. She has made me wear a diaper after punishment a couple times, once while I was in the corner and she told me I was staying there until I was wet, and the other time she put capsazin cream on my bottom after a harsh paddling, and then made me wear a diaper for a couple of hours, and it held all the heat in and I was literally unable to sit down for more than 30 seconds at a time.
Of course, these things would only work as part of punishment if the one being punished isn't into diapers or wearing feminine underwear, which I am not at least in and of themselves. I am turned on by the thought of humiliation, but less so when it actually happens. Also, much like spanking, the feelings that go along with it can vary greatly depending on the situation, and what might feel one way during a time when we are just playing can have entirely different feelings and emotions that come with it when it is part of a punishment.
She has also done a few other things that I consider quite humiliating, but only in play, never in a punishment. Recently she has been talking about incorporating those embarrassing things into our real punishments, so it will be very interesting to see how different these activities feel when they are being done as punishment.
-ZM
Hi ZM. Thanks for these thoughts. A few responses:
Delete"She could, perhaps in the middle of a punishment, put me in the corner or even leave me in position for spanking and then call someone on the phone for a while. Has anyone tried this?" Mine has not done this, but she has kept me waiting for a spanking while she answered a call. Something that didn't involve a call but was humbling happened one of the few times that I have proactively asked her to spank me. I had gone way over the top in breaking a diet, and I came to her, paddle in hand, and asked her to spank me. She agreed but was working something at the time. So, she told me to sit down on the ottoman where our spankings happen and to wait until she was ready. I did so, which meant sitting there with my back turned toward her, but I could see her in a mirror on the opposite wall. She kept me waiting for a good 10 or 15 minutes as she continued to work on her computer. When she was good and ready, she gave me a very business-like spanking and then returned to work. Corner time really does not humble me very much, but something about having to sit there and wait for her while she basically ignored me was very humbling. Though, the humility may have been augmented by the fact that I was already feeling humble and vulnerable by virtue of asking for the spanking in the first place.
"The pantyhose I wore during a spanking (paddle and cane) seemed to result in less marking, and in addition it seemed quieter, and at the same time hurt more than usual." I have read that, contrary to the way one would think it would work, being spanked over pants or other clothing can hurt more than "on the bare." Not sure why that would be the case, but it sounds like that was your experience.
"She has made me wear a diaper after punishment a couple times, once while I was in the corner and she told me I was staying there until I was wet." Wow, now that would be humiliating! And, not it a good way.
Hi Dan,
DeleteYes, I can see how having to wait for her to administer a punishment that you asked for could be very humbling, especially since as you pointed out, just asking for the spanking in the first place would be very humbling.
The reason I was kind of thinking about the phone thing is because if my wife calls someone that I know reasonably well, like her sister, it almost seems like that person is in the room during the conversation, since I hear one end and have a mental image of the other end. Anyway, I don't know if that would feel that way or not, but it was just a thought.
Regarding pantyhose and making spanking hurt worse, be quieter, and with less damage, I believe it is because of a few factors, though I am just guessing, since I haven't done a study of the physics behind it.
First off, the pantyhose (these were the control top tights type) pretty tightly compress your bottom. This results in the impact being much sharper, since it increases the deceleration of the implement. Also, it results in less of a "wave" effect (which can be seen in certain still photos of caning or spanking) since everything is being held more in place. Consequently, more of the energy goes inwards, rather than laterally dispersing. This tightness effect is probably similar to that which makes diaper position so painful. At the same time, hitting a denser object (like my bottom encased in tights) is going to sound different than if the flesh was not compressed. I am not sure it is actually quieter, but it did seem to be, and it definitely had less of the slapping noise.
Secondly, the tights hold in a LOT of heat both during and after the spanking. This greatly increases the "burn" factor during the spanking, and extends the time that you feel "just spanked" afterwards. I expect that this is also quite instrumental in reducing bruising as well, though I am not sure if that is due to retained heat or whether it is more from the uniform pressure applied to the skin.
Either way, I can say that it seems to work. However, at least so far this has been a one time thing, so it is anecdotal at best. I will have to see if it holds up if she does this again.
Another thing that I forgot to mention which my wife has done that is embarrassing, but somewhat related, is that several times she has waxed my bottom right before spanking me. She does this to increase the sensation (which it seems to), but to me it is also quite humbling.
Now, to my wife's defense for the whole diaper thing. We had just been reading the Rebecca Lawson book "The Good Wife's Guide to Taking Charge" together, which is one of the few books that I might recommend regarding DD, and Rebecca mentioned diapers in it multiple times, so it was fresh in my wife's mind.
-ZM
I forgot to mention regarding the pantyhose, that the reason I believe they are so effective is because they are still really thin and offer little protection and at the same time are very tight.
DeleteWhile everything I said about the tightness could be true for any extremely tight fitting clothes, probably for most clothing items (especially jeans) the protection offered by the thickness of the fabric would far outweigh any tightening factors, so I would expect being spanked while wearing jeans would be significantly less painful than being spanked bare.
And for other items that don't compress the bottom, like anything loose or even most underwear or panties, I would again expect that they would only diminish the effect of the spanking.
-ZM
Yes it is very humbling waiting for a spanking. I've waited in the corner for as long as an hour once. Sometimes while I am in the corner she will make a cup of coffee or talk to someone on the phone while I am waiting quietly for my spanking. I don't dare complain because she will make the spanking last much longer.
DeleteI love it that we just had a conversation about the physics of spanking!
DeleteI've read that same book, and a few of her others. The diaper play thing definitely is a thing for her. In addition to that book, my wife really liked The Hesitant Mistress, though I see it more as an instruction manual for gaining confidence as a woman and a budding female Top, and not as DD oriented.
I agree with you that logically it would seem a spanking over jeans would hurt less, but I've also read that is not really the case. One reason to go bare or with something pretty transparent is actually safety -- you can't see the condition the bottom is in after a long/hard spanking if it is covered.
Hi Dan,
DeleteI do have a degree in physics, but I am not sure that I have put enough thought into the physics of spanking to be sure I am right, so definitely treat it as an unproven theory!
We read through the Hesitant Mistress as well, though I didn't think it resonated quite as much with my wife, primarily because she doesn't really have too much problem being assertive if she chooses to be. It was still a good book, however. And yes, judging by other book titles by Rebecca Lawson, she does seem to really have a thing for diapers. As I was thinking about what I wrote and your response, I realized that even though it was quite intense on my personal humiliation scale, if what others routinely share here about others witnessing spankings, then I would say that the whole diaper thing would be pretty mild in comparison. After all, the only people in the room were my loving wife and I. I expect that it would be more embarrassing for me to to have anyone else know about or witness a punishment than almost anything she could do with it being just the two of us.
Agree totally on the value of bare or wearing something transparent for safety. I think that the pantyhose probably were pretty good in that regard as well, since I am sure that she could generally see the condition of my bottom, just that it was semi-obscured and much darker than normal.
-ZM
That does explain the difference in reactions to the two books. I think the Hesitant Mistress resonated with my wife more because it was almost like permission to be assertive, and also an affirmation of "Yes, as strange as it seems, he really does want this."
DeleteThe most interesting thing about Rebecca's book, btw, is if you go to the back you will see a recommendation for this blog. I about fell out of my chair when I read it. It was a very odd thing that after 25 years of hard work and striving in my career, the one and only mention of "me" in a book was something I stumbled over in a guide to domestic discipline of all things.
My wife objects in principle to the very idea that wearing feminine clothing is humiliating. After all, women do it all of the time. The privilege of wearing lacy panties, dresses, or skirts is a reward I would need to earn with exceptionally good behavior.
DeleteNow, diapers might be a different story. I don't think I will mention that idea to here.
Interesting broad discussion this week on an important topic for our group. I do think some of the opinions reflect individual semantic understandings of humbling and humiliation. For me, just crossing my wife's lap for a bare bottom paddling is a humbling experience - and really lies at the heart of our DWC experience - as an offset to my natural proclivity toward alpha male arrogance. Humiliation (but not humility) has a harsher tone to my ears - but that's just me. And, as with many things in life, this does seem to be a gray area - where situations are relative depending on the circumstances. It was an embarrassing and humbling experience to discover that my wife's sister had overheard her spanking me (and, as a result of her discovery, to later witness me being spanked, and even to eventually participate) - but it was not humiliating (as I hear the word). However, if my wife suddenly announced that she had been regularly paddling me for years at a business dinner - I would be completely humiliated.
ReplyDeleteAlso, as Dan mentioned, humiliation is also very much a sexualized femdom fantasy in some BDSM circles, from the classic dominatrix fantasies - to the various cuckold scenarios. Obviously, to each his own - and certainly the word does not carry that connotation for everyone, but I suspect that it probably does to many, especially those who have been exposed to the larger BDSM world.
Just a few thoughts --al
Hi al. I totally agree some of these words just strike the ear in very individual ways.
DeleteI have a feeling you and I got into all this for very similar reasons. The whole "alpha male arrogance" is at the root of many, many of my behavioral issues.
I agree with al that humbling and being humbled is inherent in an adult male being put across his wife's knee. It is also necessary for an alpha oriented male to experience real discipline because that male ego which gets us into so much trouble has to be put firmly under control. However "humiliation" as opposed to humbling is tricky. Being disciplined in front of my sister in law is something I experience as humiliating.Similarly being ordered to masturbate in front of my wife before being spanked is humiliating. But this is where it gets tricky for me. I have shared my feeling about this -especially discipline witnessed by her sister - and my wife sees it not as an attempt to humiliate but a punishment enhancement. My response to her is that it is unnecessary to get her point across but have been told she will be the judge of that and the fact she doesn't do it very often proves it is effective. So whether something is or is not humiliating is pretty subjective.
DeleteAlan
Danielle here:
ReplyDeleteSorry I have not been able to participate lately due to various circumstances, but I wanted briefly to comment on “humbling” versus “humiliating.”
Dan put his finger on my way of thinking about those things when he noted that humiliation is more explicitly sexual than humbling. Many of routine things I do to manage my husband’s behavior within the context of a 24/7 FLR are, in my mind, humbling to him. When I “humiliate” him, on the other hand, my intent is explicitly erotic.
As an example, I could cite domestic servitude. I know it is humbling to my husband to have to do the cooking and cleaning while I enjoy leisure time. I guess that must be somewhat erotic to him or he wouldn’t do it, but the eroticism is subtle. Now, to make it his servitude humiliating, I will sometimes make him wear a feminine apron (and sometimes no pants) while he does it and tease him about how “cute” he looks.
When I behave in a bossy manner when we are alone, that is humbling for him. When I am bossy with him in front of other people, it becomes humiliating. He’s not always comfortable with that kind of humiliation while I am doing it, but he always gets turned on by it afterwards.
I could give other examples, but I am short of time, so I will leave it at that.
My wife enjoys an occasional humbling/humiliation/embarrassment of me when she is in a particularly playful mood. I'll never forget the first time she "outed" me. It was very early in our newly discovered spanking days when she had given me a particularly hard spanking right before we were heading out for lunch. Something about wanting to make sure I was on "my best behavior." When we got to the restaurant, the hostess, a woman in her early thirties, asked us whether we wanted a booth or a table. Before I could answer, my wife asked her "which one has the most comfortable seating." I'm sure I blushed as she told her the booths had padded seats and the table chairs did not. As we walked to the booth, my wife added, "thanks for getting us a booth, my husband's bottom is a little sore this morning." I know I blushed then, even though the hostess did not immediately respond to my wife's comment. As we sat down in the nicely cushioned booth, I thought the embarrassment was over, but I was wrong. Our hostess seemed to linger a moment before she asked me "is this OK?," adding "did you have an accident or something." Once again, before I could respond, my wife jumped in, with the biggest smile I had seen in awhile, "oh no, it was no accident, Robert was a naughty boy this morning and he was treated like one, isn't that right honey?" I just answered "Yes Ma'am" as the hostess just laughed and added "well, I hope he learned his lesson" as she walked away. I was so embarrassed, but later on, upon further reflection, I found it arousing to have been humbled by my wife in that manner.
ReplyDeleteI keep thinking about this topic of humbling or humiliating then it occurred to me. When my wife first started spanking me I was humiliated but after a few times I was no longer humiliated but the spanking made me humble. To this day the spanking humbles me but it has also made me submissive to my wife. My wife who is 5'3" and 110 pounds has no problem putting me a 5'9" 165 pound man over her knee and she's able to do that because I am submissive to her. If I wasn't submissive I would be able to stop a spanking anytime I wanted to.
ReplyDeleteThere is always humiliation in my spanking ritual, which is why I love it. My wife tells me I am going to get a spanking. I know then I am to go upstairs carrying the big paddle and stand there naked until she gets there. She takes her time to make me nervous about it. Then she walks in and I get in my knees in front of her. She asks me: “ Do you know why you are getting a spanking?” I then tell her the bad things I’ve done.
ReplyDeleteThen I’m ordered to get on the bed and bed over. She then takes the big paddle and really swats my butt hard, over and over again. It hurts like crazy but if I cry out too much or move around she tells me to stop it, which is humiliating in itself.
After the spanking ends (never a stroke too soon!) I go on my knees and thank her for spanking me. I kiss her bare feet and then she removes her dress or pants and I service her orally. Sometimes she cums from that or other times she wants me in her. Afterward I am to lick her feet while masturbating in front of her until I cum.
The whole thing is very humiliating and, therefore, very sexy
I'm still ruminating about this topic. Not so much the humiliation, but the scolding/lecture aspect. I think that genuine experience of DWC punishment and scolding is only possible within a good relationship.
ReplyDeleteBefore I was with Aunt Kay I had professional sessions maybe three or four times in my life. None of those really delivered anything close to what I needed. Spanking/lecture outside the context of a loving committed relationship comes up pretty empty for me. The exception was when Aunt Kay and I were with other DWC couples and the women spanked other husbands. Somehow being punished by a real-life DWC woman still felt satisfying, so to speak- I can't explain it better.
So I like it when I read about hubbies being truly grateful for their DWC wives efforts and attentions. It's something money cannot buy.
I agree with you, Tomy. I always thank my wife after punishment, though we have no such requirement. I say, "Thank you for teaching me humility and helping me be the best (husband, father, worker, neighbor, whatever is relevant) that I can be."
DeleteMy gratitude is real.
Arthur
Good on Ya Arthur
DeleteI've never been to a pro, but it doesn't surprise me that a lecture from one isn't effective or has a decidedly false note.
Delete