“A punishment to some, to some a gift, and to many a
favor.” - Lucius Annaeus Seneca
Hello all. Welcome back to the Disciplinary Couples
Club. Our weekly gathering of men and
women who are in, or would like to be in, Domestic Discipline
relationships. I hope you had a good
week.
Mine remained crazy, though
there were a few, incremental signs of settling in and adjusting my behavior in
a slightly better direction. I did better on keeping up with the annoying administrative
task I referenced last week. I didn’t
manage to complet it every day but I
did get it done most days, which is a
big improvement over prior weeks. I did have one major fail for the week, when
a work-related social engagement took an unexpected turn. It was something I didn’t cause or really
even want, and one could argue it kind of had to be done. But, that’s the way it goes sometimes with
rules. Events spiral beyond your control. Best intentions, and all that.
But, our current system is supposed to hold me accountable even when things spiral out of control, because the more rigorous accountability makes such spirals less likely in the future. Or, at the very least it keeps some boundaries in place even if I have a tendency to drive outside them from time to time. In that vein, one indication that things are settling in,
though, is that earlier I felt like I was just so overwhelmed that punishment would not accomplish
anything, but now I feel like rigorous discipline
is necessary if I am to succeed. ZM
referenced this in one of his comments.
Here is an abbreviated version:
“Since the beginning of this year, I have been crazy
busy and I keep hoping that she will not punish me for falling short of
expectations, because it just seems so incredibly unfair to not consider how
hard I am working and how impossible the circumstances are! However, as I read
what you wrote, I realized that it is exactly at times like this that I most
NEED discipline; the only possible way of climbing out of this situation is by
executing perfectly day in and day out, which my general lack of self
discipline guarantees won’t happen (at least on my own) or I wouldn’t probably
be in this place! In other words, when she sees that I am struggling under a
heavy load, her first instinct might be to be merciful to me and cut me a
break, but by doing so she would be doing me a disservice. Instead, when she
sees that I have an impossible load, that is the time that she might need to
break out her paddles and canes regularly to keep me super motivated and on task.
If she does this, she might just help me to overcome so I finally get some true
rest and relaxation. . . And in fact, as I look back at the past few months
(and for that matter the year before that), I can see that we would be in a
much, much better place if she would keep cracking the whip, whether I want it
or not.”
As I've alluded to, my wife
has become a regular reader of the blog, and I suspect that she’s been
following the comments on this issue and my evolving readiness to get on track with
her help. When I got to work Friday morning,
I received a text from her saying, "You are grounded and will not be
drinking alcohol this weekend."
She
also said I was in trouble for failing to do something yesterday, though she is
factually wrong on that one. But, when I
pointed out she was wrong, she responded with a text saying, "Don't sass
me." No smiley face included.
That is the kind of control—strict and with a
decidedly maternal vibe—that I know I need right now.
On to this week’s topic. Elizabeth better keep participating, because right
now she is my primary source of inspiration. She suggested a topic focused on
how spanking has changed the relationship with the spanking partner and “similarly,
how has spanking changed your life outside of your relationship with your
spanking partner? And are there ways you expected your life to change that have
not transpired?” Let’s focus on that
latter part, since we have done the changes in the primary relationships many
times. So, how has spanking, and non-spanking
discipline, changed your life outside the relationship with your spanking
partner? What changes did you think would happen that have not?
A few of my own thoughts on
things that have changed:
· Productivity at work:
I’ve talked about this a lot lately, so I won’t go into much detail
here. While it is always a work in
progress and there is plenty of room for improvement, I do feel like discipline
has kept me from going off the rails many times and has kept me more focused
than I might otherwise have been.
· Workplace leadership: Being subject to discipline myself
(and writing about it weekly) has made me a better leader at work. I’m better at holding people accountable, but
doing it in a controlled manner that doesn’t damage the people involved or my
relationship with them.
· Temper: Last year, I wrote about in incident in which
I blew up on someone at work. Objectively, he sort of deserved it, but it still
reflected immaturity on my part. My wife’s
solution was to make me apologize to him verbally (no emails), and that hurt
far more than the paddling she gave me for it.
It also seemed to have a more lasting effect than any spanking, and I
really have been more conscious of how I talk to others at work, even when
provoked.
· Family interactions: Similarly, Anne has spanked me
more than once for saying things to the kids that weren’t particularly kind or
sensitive. I have gotten much better at
holding my tongue in such situations and at offering apologies immediately when
I have said something I know was excessive or not really fair.
What hasn’t changed? Well, in general I think when I first found
the DWC, I envisioned something like many of the fiction stories, not realizing
that they are, in fact, fictional in more ways than one. I envisioned a more or
less instantaneous change in our power structure, with her consistently spanking
me for anything she saw as an offense and me surrendering to that
authority. It has been more incremental than
that. Her authority has not been
exercised consistently and my surrender has been far from complete. But, it’s always a work in progress, right?
After a spanking, my stress levels are greatly reduced. Professionally, I am better able to focus, prioritize, and make more thoughtful decisions. I am also much calmer; thus, a better father. In both areas, I am more successful and more likable.
ReplyDeleteMore successful and more likable -- great goals for us all!
DeleteA different week for us...but sou dd like you two are making some progress.
ReplyDeleteI had a client turn from a trusted friend of 8 years to a 5 year old with a temper who would not return calls after accusing me of cheating him to a several people. (Me and my PM were both just stunned). Combine that with an elderly friend going into hospice, my brain went into survival mode. There is a level where even when things get though you maintain the DD process...and then there is survival mode. We actually paused everything for a few days to just figure things out. Things are back on as of tonight.
This week is a good topic. I can tell that for us it has given us another way to communicate and know each other. I am a pretty closed person, but by doing this it has allowed me to bare my soul and let her know me better. It has produced more trust and knowledge of each other.
Also, as I have improved in areas that were problems by being held accountable. So that has made her more at ease with our marriage.
More room to grow for sure but we are on a good track and getting better with each turn and bend.
Hi SR. I've always said that DD is not my life; it is a part of my life. I totally get putting it on hold when survival mode kicks in. That is kind of where I was a few weeks ago when I felt like I was drowning, though it wasn't as bad some of the stuff you are going through. I'm sorry to hear about your friend in hospice and hope the problem with your client gets worked out.
DeleteI think an open question is whether DD can help even when in survival mode, not directly but because it has helped us build the kind of character that gets you through things when survival mode kicks in.
This is Elizabeth. I would say that DD definitely helped me with weight loss, and weight loss has helped me with many other things.
ReplyDeleteLike many women, my self-image is deeply connected to my appearance. So when I lost weight and improved my appearance, it opened the door for more self-confidence, self-respect, and assertiveness.
Maybe maturity through turning 50 had something to do with it as well. And my husband's attitude, which is directly related to our adoption of domestic discipline. He had never treated me disrespectfully, but he began treating me with even more respect and giving me more Authority. Though our relationship is not FLR and neither of us wants it to be, he has deferred to me in many areas where he previously might not have.
Recently we bought a new truck, and I do say we. Since he is the one who drives the truck, he previously would have selected it all by himself, and maybe just asked me for my input on the color. But this time we went together and test drove several trucks and he repeatedly asked me which one felt the most comfortable to me, even though I would seldom be driving it. And we wound up buying the one that I said felt the most comfortable.
This kind of deference would never have occurred before DD. And his deference has led to me feeling a greater sense of confidence in decision-making and taking some of the authority in our marriage.
I recently purchased a horse, something I have always wanted to do but never really had the confidence or for the willingness to spend discretionary income on myself.
We go out dancing, which I never would have done before my weight loss.
I am involved in a non-profit animal rescue organization and have taken a leadership role, something I would not have done previously.
I also have become more communicative (or is it demanding) in bed. I initiate sex more, and tell him what I want (and he never refuses). I would have been much to shy to do that before.
I am not attributing all of this to domestic discipline but I do see it as a factor. When my husband asked me to take this authority over him and to wield the paddle, it meant he had extreme confidence in me, and that improved my confidence in myself. So I would say DD has been life-changing for the spanker as well as the spanked in our marriage.
Elizabeth
Hi Elizabeth. I agree with Tomy. Inspiring stuff.
DeleteBelieve it or not, body image is an issue for men, too. At least for this one. Increasingly, I look young for my age, and I attribute a lot of that to doing hard resistance workouts for many years. I bring that up because it is one thing that led me to sitting on a very sore bottom this morning. One thing that dropped during the storm of the last month was working out, and it was on our list of the four things I needed to do/stop doing in order to be successful while maintaining my health. While it takes time, it's part of "sharpening the saw." [Great Abraham Lincoln quote: "Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe."] It's really, really easy to drop workouts when there is a combination of travel, early morning meetings that overlap my usual workout time, and lack of sleep that makes me want to stay in bed longer on those mornings when I don't have an early morning meeting. But, while easy, over time lack of exercise is a killer, literally. Last night, while lecturing before the spanking started, she was adamant that I WILL find ways to maintain a workout schedule, period. No excuses. "You absolutely WILL find ways to workout and stay healthy."
DD also had a car-related impact on us, but in a different direction. Before DD, and during the early years of it, she would have wanted my help choosing a car for her. Two cars back, I refused to do it, telling her that part of being in authority was making her own decisions. She reluctantly did it, but was very proud of her negotiating acumen. Last time, she didn't try to get me involved, other than asking me whether I knew anything about the reliability of one of the options she was looking at.
In the end, I think most of the things you are pointing to reflect the positive feedback loop of getting more of one thing into your life: confidence. It is the key to so many other things, and it really is a feedback loop - accomplish something, get more confident as a result, accomplish something else and something more.
Dan,
DeleteFirst of all, kudos to Anne for enforcing your need to work out with a no excuses approach.
I also like the Lincoln quote. And I agree with the feedback loop of confidence.
The car story surprised me somewhat. If you are in an FLR and she specifically asks you for help, how is it that you can refuse? I know you were doing it for her benefit, but I thought being in an FLR would preclude you from refusing that way. Of course I am not Frank's Leader in all matters so I don't know how it works. Enlighten us!
Elizabeth
Part of it is timing. That incident happened a few years backed, when our relationship was a lot less FLR, though we had aspirations in that direction. Though, I’m not sure I would handle it much different today. Being a leader requires confidence in yourself. Some people have it naturally, and some need to develop it by doing things outside their comfort zones. At that point in time, she needed to develop more confidence, and I was very intentionally refusing to get involved in something that she was perfectly capable of doing but that intimidated her. Was that a little insubordinate? Perhaps, though again, we weren’t really doing the FLR thing at that time, at least not to the extent we do now. And, the insubordination served a higher good, which was helping her gain more confidence in herself.
DeleteWow Elizabeth. That was inspiring and it made me very happy to read.
ReplyDeleteThe truck buying episode was beautiful. Perfect, in fact.
Aunt Kay was also dedicated to supporting animals and all forms of nature. She too volunteered at Animal Rescue. Anytime she spotted an animal in distress we stopped the car and did what we could. I have a great stories that illustrate just how committed she was to animals. Such a deep passion.
I too applaud both Elizabeth and Aunt Kay's devotion to animals. It's a big thing for me too.
DeleteDan's descriptions of the progress/benefits was similarly inspiring. Life is indeed a work in progress from the opening title to the final credits. In my opinion, Anne is already "there" if there is such a thing as "there". The message he posted shows that in spades.The significant progress and benefits he described as a big deal in my mind.
ReplyDeleteThis is Frank. I don't think I have changed as much as Elizabeth describes for herself. I definitely have become more thoughtful about her needs. She has done so many things for me - you should see all of her house projects that so impress our guests. And after 30 years of refusing to dance, she now pulls ME out onto the floor. Plus DD. So I have tried to do little things for her as well.
ReplyDeleteAs she has gotten stricter - and she is MUCH stricter than she used to be - I have tried to anticipate more what would make her happier (and keep me out of Friday night trouble).
I do think that I listen to other women more than I used to. I always treated them respectfully on the surface but sometimes tuned them out. In my job of farm equipment sales, there used to be no women at all. When some entered the profession, I tended to discount their knowledge. Now, because of the additional respect I have learned from Elizabeth's paddle, I bend over backwards to listen to and respect those women. This is a direct result of DD, as my complaining about women joining my profession led to several sessions with my wife that had me standing up in business meetings the next day (with a "sore back" that was really a sore backside). I don't see my wife as a feminist at all, but in that instance she was!
Frank
Thanks, Frank. Since we are talking about changes, care to elaborate on the areas in which she has gotten much stricter?
DeleteElizabeth has gotten stricter in many, many ways. I will try to describe some of them.
Delete1, gentlemanly behavior. It used to be that she just liked it when I acted like a gentleman, but since DD she has come to expect it. So when we go out to the car, she expects me to always open the door for her. In the past she might smile or say thank you when I did so, but now it's an absolute expectation. If I don't do it, she will stand by her door and wait for me to come open it. She does this even if we are in a hurry, and this has aggravated me occasionally. But when I brought that up she said, so you are only expected to act like a gentleman when we aren't in a hurry? I got the point.
Another way that she acts much more strictly is in regards to chores. It used to be that I could decide when I was going to do a particular chore that I had agreed to do, such as washing the dishes. As long as it was done by the time she got out of bed the next morning, it was okay. But now she wants the dishes done immediately after dinner. Sometimes I am tired after a long day at work and would rather not. She will smile at me and nod at the kitchen or sometimes even point to the kitchen. Her expectation is very clear.
The third way that she has become more strict is with my drinking. As I think we mentioned before, she now will approach me at a party and tell me that the drink in my hand is the last one for the night. She used to be much more subtle about it maybe putting a hand on my arm or whispering to me. Now she makes an announcement. It's not like she's trying to publicly embarrass me, but it's more like she just doesn't care whether other people here or not. She feels like I should know better and she doesn't need to cover for me.
I agree with all of these approaches. She's right in all instances, but the change is her assertiveness.
I also want to add that she is never rude or even really bossy when she does these things. She always has a smile on her face and she does them in a loving if Authoritative manner. That makes it much easier to tolerate then if she was acting like a B.
She also is stricter in our discipline sessions. She tends to spank harder and longer and with heavier implements. She scolds more and in a louder and more authoritarian voice. Of course I find that quite erotic.
While I sometimes feel surprised the ways that she has changed and the authority that she exhibits, I also have no problem with any of it. She hasn't ever crossed the line into an area that we both agree should be my area of authority.
Hi Frank, the comments from both you and Elizabeth are inspiring. It sounds like you have built just the kind of relationship that many of the people visiting this board aspire to have.
Delete-ZM
Frank's getting "woke" is marvelous. Hopefully someday in the future the thing referred to as "toxic masculinity" will be just another quirky era in the waste-bin of history.
ReplyDeleteRegardless of initial intent, Frank is now a warrior on the side of human evolution. Right on!
Frank can either bend over backwards (to be respectful) or bend over frontwards (to be paddled)!
DeleteI couldn't resist commenting when he used that phrase. Now I can ask him when he is misbehaving, "Would you rather bend over backwards or bend over frontwards?"
Nothing like DD humor ...
Elizabeth
Nice!
DeleteBeing subject to spanking more than the spankings themselves has changed me in many ways. I am much more productive and efficient using time and much of that is because both of my disciplinarians forbid masturbation which was time consuming especially when I was younger. It took my former girlfriend a while to figure out how important that was but when she did she became obsessive about it and that has carried over to my marriage. Having boundaries enforced by consequences has also made me much more conscious of my behavior and its impact on others. Being spanked has also made me less self-destructive in many ways, behaviors I think that were driven by an inner guilt that spanking eliminates. It has also made me a better person and healthier. Both women punished smoking but my wife took it to a level that supplied the motivation to really quit. Similarly excessive drinking although I still manage to get spanked several times a year because of it, I have control of it most of the time. I also have learned to be absolutely truthful with her because she hates lying of any kind and punishes both lies of commission and omission ( that was a hard one for me) Discipline has also made me more confident ( which is ironic because my wife still regularly takes down my pants and reminds me I have ceded her an authority I cannot disobey) I have also learned that some of my misbehavior was driven by anxiety ( tantrums, cussing , driving rage, etc.) –and nothing eliminates anxiety faster than being sent for the hairbrush or told I will be spanked when we get home. Just knowing I can and will be spanked over time has almost eliminated the anxiety I once experienced. I don’t think anyone or even a series of spankings has brought this about but the accumulation of probably hundreds of spanking over almost three decades. (The discipline I received for smoking may be the one exception – it did permanently stop that behavior)
ReplyDeleteAlan
Hi Alan,
DeleteI am not sure why my previous comment didn't post? Anyway, I wanted to say that your post is great, and has a lot of things to unpack in it. First off, your "being subject to spanking more than the spankings themselves has changed me in many ways" really resonates with me. It is really not as much about the punishments themselves for me, but rather the fact that they are imposed and I am subject to them.
Masturbation is a huge topic, since it can be a massive waste of time, drains the relationship of sexual energy and passion, and is a problem for many men, especially in current times where sexual content is only a click away. Of course, there are tons of punishments that would be effective for this, including being made to masturbate in front of her and then being paddled, caned, or strapped immediately after climax, which I have heard is excruciating. Also, a chastity cage could be used for prevention (like during trips) or for punishment. I just bought one, but it is unlikely to be used for long stretches since she likes sex pretty much daily. Actually, now that I think about it, a bunch of punishments seem particularly appropriate for this one...
Other things you mentioned that could be explored further:
- Eliminating inner guilt which can drive self-destructive behaviors.
- Lies of omission, which is closely related to self-reporting
- Increased confidence (for BOTH parties) as a result of DD. This one is quite ironic, as you mention!
- Attitude-related behaviors such as tantrums, cussing, road rage, etc.
- How DD reduces anxiety. I hadn't really thought of this one before, but I believe it rings true for me.
- The cumulative effect of DD and the need for consistency over a long period of time to appreciate the full effect.
Anyway, just wanted to say "bravo" for a great comment!
-ZM
Same here regarding Alan's comment. I'm sorry for being so late responding. The end of my week became incredibly hectic.
DeleteI honestly don't know whether DD reduces anxiety for me. I feel like reducing anxiety may be at the root of my desire for imposed boundaries, but that is an area where I think consistency is critical, and it's been only recently that she is setting boundaries more regularly and taking on more of that directive, somewhat "bossy" FLR role.
BTW ZM, not sure why your earlier one didn't post. It's not in the spam filter or in the "awaiting moderation" queue.
DeleteHi Dan,
ReplyDeleteI wrote a little about this topic last week. Since then I have had some time to think about it so I will expand a bit more on it. Probably there is nothing new here, since I have written about all this before, but hopefully there will be different angles or insights that come from it. Because I wrote so much, I am going to answer the questions in two postings.
How has spanking, and non-spanking discipline, changed your life outside the relationship with your spanking partner?
Overall my work productivity has increased; I work harder and more consistently than I did before. This is mostly a result of the effort from about this time last year where my wife was keeping track of my progress, giving me daily +/- minus grades, and having weekly check-ins. This at least got me going, since before then I was hopelessly stuck and just couldn’t seem to gain any momentum. Unfortunately, this effort only lasted 6-8 weeks since we had kids returning home for summer.
Her friends and family may notice that she feels more free about going out. I was really struggling because I felt like we have so little time alone. Consequently, I would have a very bad attitude when she would be out much when we could have been alone. Her friends even keyed into this, since she wouldn’t have a very good time, knowing she would return to a grumpy husband, or would only go out when I wasn’t around. She punished/disciplined me several times for this, and I am happy to say that it really brought about a change of my mindset, which is no small feat. I realized how much stress my attitude was causing her, and that it was sucking all the joy of being out from her. And of course that my thinking/perspective was just wrong, since we have a lifetime together. Now I am much more relaxed about things, and I am sure that those around her can see that she feels more free, even though they (hopefully!) have no idea why.
People around me might notice just how much calmer and centered I am after she punishes me. Though it probably isn’t so dramatic from their perspective, at least for me I notice it a lot.
Finally, those around her may notice that she is more empowered and self-confident. I must say that she has never really lacked self-confidence, especially when you consider that she was in a marriage before that was beyond toxic, and on top of that she is from a culture that is strongly, strongly paternal and in which women are valued somewhere between plants and animals (something that we in the western world thankfully will never fully understand). From the beginning of meeting me, I am sure that she felt highly valued. However, because of her developing role in DD, she is ever more empowered and self-confident. Some of this would have happened naturally because of how much I love and cherish her and value her insights and opinions, but I am confident that DD has increased this even more.
I can’t really say that any of these things are are really “life changing,” but they are all positive. Also, I am sure that the changes are more noticeable within our relationship, since we haven’t really been at it that long. Over time, I expect that the changes will be more dramatic and will change life outside our relationship much more.
-ZM
That really is a fascinating angle on DD as empowering your wife precisely because she grew up in such a paternal culture.
DeleteAnd now for the second question…
ReplyDeleteWhat changes did you think would happen that have not?
For this question, I simply must add “yet,” since our DD is definitely a work in progress. The biggest thing that hasn’t changed, which also happens to be the biggest thing I was originally seeking from DD, is that I haven’t really become more self-disciplined. The thinking is, kind of like in the military, that imposed external discipline will bring about structure in a person’s life. The person who is being trained will begin to see the benefits of a disciplined life and hopefully will become more intrinsically motivated, hopefully to the point that external discipline isn’t really required as much. However, we simply have not gotten even close to that point. Even though my productivity is better, I am still just about as undisciplined as ever, and I still procrastinate horribly.
I think the reason we haven’t seen much increase in my self-discipline is primarily because we have really lacked consistency. Simply put, we are trying to change a lifetime of accumulated bad habits. I have spent 50 years learning how to procrastinate, so it isn’t something that is likely to be changed with a few completely random discipline sessions. Rather it will require a sustained, consistent, and very strict regimen for long enough for me to start to get used to and prefer a disciplined life.
Even though we are not there yet, I don’t feel that bad about it, for a number of reasons. First off, we have had a lot of external factors that limit us, mostly busyness and lack of time, the loss of her mother several months back, and the continual presence of kids in a small living space where noise often makes discipline (or at least spanking punishments) impossible.
Also, she is still gaining experience and confidence. This confidence is especially important during times like the past few months where I have just been swamped; it would take a huge amount of self-confidence for her to put her foot down and show no mercy in light of the load I have been under.
I have no doubt that we will get there. When she gets serious about addressing my lack of self discipline and procrastination, and is strict enough and consistent enough about this for a long enough time to help me gain self-discipline, I will truly be able to say that DD changed our life, and I have no doubt that the results will be stunning.
-ZM
This is another one of those that I could have written myself. I think consistency is the only way to break some of these deeply rooted habits and mindsets, yet it is so hard to do DD consistently for all the reasons you mention. I always wonder whether the fact that kids finally move on is why so many of our readers are in their 50s or older? Though, I'm not sure that fully accounts for that bit of skewed demographics.
DeleteThis issue of developing self-discipline from DD is quite fascinating. I think it is quite a leap of faith to think that having strict discipline imposed externally would help someone develop self-discipline. Isn't it more likely that they would come to rely on the external discipline and have no need or motivation to develop it internally?
ReplyDeleteI guess Frank might think to himself, "I desperately want to avoid her paddle so I will NEVER forget to put my socks in the hamper." Self-discipline.
But DD is seldom that simple. Frank on some level wants me to impose my authority and wants to be punished. That is, he wants external discipline. And if truth be told, he enjoys and even craves the process and ritual of it, even if he does not enjoy the specific application. So why would he develop self-discipline?
The ironic truth, as I have mentioned before, is that it is ME who has developed self-discipline through imposing external discipline on him! Book title: "How I lost 50 pounds by spanking my husband."
Elizabeth
It's like the teacher who learns more about the subject by teaching it.
DeleteBy imposing discipline on my husband, and trying not to be a hypocrite myself at the same time, I learned how to be more disciplined. I felt it was somehow unfair to spank him if I had not lost the two pounds a week that I promised myself I would lose. I punished him anyway because he expected and needed it, but I felt like a hypocrite (though I kept all this secret from him). So the next week I would do a better job of losing because I did not want to feel that way. When I had lost two pounds or more, I could focus on his issues and be the authoritarian role model that I expected myself to be. Does that make any sense to the rest of you?
Taking a paddle to my husband's a** to the point of leaving marks and bruises is serious business, so I thought I best get about the serious business of putting my own house in order.
DeleteElizabeth
Hi Elizabeth,
DeleteYour comments above about self-discipline and DD's role in it are something I find myself both agreeing and disagreeing. I also came into adulthood needing externally imposed discipline particularly spanking imposed on me by THE woman in my life. I was certainly lacking in self-discipline. So I agree with you on that and to some extent I will need externally imposed discipline for the rest of my life. That is ingrained But the consensual spankings I have received as an adult have helped me build not only self-confidence but also considerable self-discipline. This has allowed me to develop many positive behaviors and to end or sharply reduce many behaviors I now recognize as wrong immature and childish. I am not saying discipline has given me all the self-discipline I could want. I regularly slip and am spanked for it. But in the long run I learn from that and gain self-discipline over it because my wife spanks me and in disciplining me has taught me how to become more self-disciplined
Alan.
Hi Elizabeth,
DeleteI agree that it is far from certain that having discipline imposed will result in self-discipline. However, it is the underpinning of military basic training (search "basic training increases self discipline" or read an article like this: http://masscasualties.com/2011/03/31/what-the-military-teaches-about-self-discipline/). Pretty much everyone that I have known who was or is in the military is very self-disciplined, and remembering back to high school (increasingly difficult to do!) it seems that those who were inclined to join the military were some of the LEAST self-disciplined people I knew, so I guess whatever they do works!
Also, in education there was a debate about whether extrinsic motivation and reinforcement (positive or negative) decreases intrinsic motivation, but research showed that in fact that is not the case.
Now, back to DD, I think that IF it results in the desired increase in self-discipline, it will be more because I will develop new habits and a new "normal" and it will feel good to have a more orderly life. If I then become more self-disciplined, it will not be because I am wanting to avoid long-term punishment, but rather because I will experience a new and better way of living and will see the benefits of it, plus after doing things more methodically for a while, it will just start to feel more normal. You gave the example of "I desperately want to avoid her paddle so I will NEVER forget to put my socks in the hamper." I think more likely, or at least more desirable is that he will see the socks laying on the floor and it just won't feel right, so he will throw them in the hamper and feel satisfaction about having a neat room.
I totally get what you say about him wanting or needing imposed discipline, because I am exactly the same way. However, if she somehow manages to instill self-discipline in me, it just means that she will no longer have to punish me for procrastination, laziness, etc. I am quite certain that there are plenty of other things that she can still find to address, like my bad attitudes, grumpiness, looking too long at an attractive girl, rolling my eyes when she says something, excessive sarcasm that sometimes crosses the line with others, etc. etc. etc.!!!
I commend you for really stepping up and making sure that you walk the walk and live up to the high standards to which you hold Frank. That is one of the challenges of assuming the mantle of leadership, and it sounds like you are very thoughtful and responsible when you are in the role of disciplinarian!
-ZM
Hmmm ... My husband did serve in the military. I'll have to ask him why he didn't develop more self-discipline. Maybe the drill sergeant didn't swing as hard as I do!
DeleteElizabeth
Book title: "How I lost 50 pounds by spanking my husband." That's halarious. I so appreciate a good sense of humor in the mix of everything.
DeleteI agree, Tomy. A sense of humor I think is necessary to have a really good DD relationship. Sometimes when I am scolding my husband, I just break up laughing and he does too, and we hug and kiss. I don't mean during a punishment session but in other settings.
DeleteElizabeth
I too liked the book title! It would probably become a best seller since everyone would be curious. I had never thought about how sense of humor might play into a DD relationship, but my wife and I both really enjoy laughing a lot. As I think about it, if we didn't both have a good sense of humor, it would really change the dynamic and likely would make a DD sound harsh or even oppressive. You have wonderful insights, Elizabeth.
Delete-ZM
ps, regarding your husband and military discipline, I certainly don't mean to imply that every military person is perfectly self-disciplined, since every person is different, but I do think that generally they tend to be more self-disciplined at least from my observations. Just imagine how your husband might be had he not had military training! And yes, I can see how you swinging a paddle hard for many years might be much more "impactful" than 6 weeks of basic training!
I guess there are different kinds of self-discipline. My husband is a very reliable worker and very good at what he does. He takes care of our cars and all of the equipment on our place. He is fastidious in his appearance. He is self-disciplined in many ways. The things for which I provide external discipline are minor in the big picture. Why is he not self-disciplined in those areas? I think someone else mentioned earlier that habits are hard to break and sometimes it takes external motivation to create new habits. And maybe some things he just doesn't make as high a priority is I do. And the paddle helps him make them the high priority that I require.
DeleteGreat conversation all! Sorry I was tied up and couldn't be a bigger part of it. On the military issue, over the years I've come to really appreciate their leadership model, and I do think much of their approach can serve as a model for DD and FLR relationships. Interestingly though, my only real experience with it is indirectly through my father who was a Marine, and who was also for a large part of his life one of the most undisciplined people I've ever known. He was a very hard worker, but also just a total force of nature who left a lot of wreckage in his wake. He did settle down later in life, but long after most men his age manage to do that. And, from his stories about the military it is clear that he was a major discipline problem before, during and after his military experience. Yet, despite saying he hated it, he signed up for two tours. So, there must have been something there he found appealing even if it didn't seem to have much personal impact.
DeleteHi ZM
ReplyDeleteThanks for the positive comments. Obviously I strongly agree with you on these issues. I may be wrong but I suspect many women even in an FLR don’t realize how important it is to control male masturbation (or “control your cock” as my former girlfriend liked to put it. Surprisingly it took a lot less punishment to get that under control than some of my other behaviors. Once I realized that is what she wanted it became important to me too.
Yes being spanked after orgasm is an excruciating and unforgettable experience. I doubt there is any behavior a disciplinary wife could not bring under control if she targeted that behavior with that particular punishment .Interestingly though I managed to get spanked at least once that way by both women who have disciplined me. Beth later reported that administering that spanking was hard for them to do or "unpleasant" and to be avoided. So if you happen to get yourself in a position that you are punished like this remember she probably wouldn’t be doing it unless she thought it was absolutely necessary
You alluded to DD and reducing anxiety and that is something I have thought about, specifically why a threatened or impending punishment can reduce anxiety (and bad behavior) I think it works on two levels. One is basic: whatever is causing the anxiety gets pushed out by the much more imminent prospect of what she is going to do to your bum. You suddenly have bigger things to worry about. The second level is that at least some anxiety comes from guilt and the fear you are going to be punished for it. The reality of actually being spanked serves as penance for your guilt and you become calm
Thanks again for the comments. I think having dialogues is a great benefit of Dan’s blog
Alan
Not easy to say, as we started domestic discipline immediately upon getting married. I needed a certain amount of self-discipline to win my wife over and convince her that I would be a good husband to begin with, but marriage changes everything, so it isn't easy sorting out which changes occurred because of DD and what would have happened as a result of the constraints marriage imposes anyway.
ReplyDelete