"Know what? Bitches get stuff
done.” – Tina Fey
Hello all. Welcome back to the Disciplinary Couples
Club. Our weekly gathering of men and
women who are in, or would like to be in, Domestic Discipline
relationships. I hope you had a good
week.
Mine was nutty and harried
and hard from start to finish. I
actually thought that things might wind down a bit as I got to Friday.
Nope. Things went from bad to worse thanks
to an unexpected personnel issue that will now make my professional life even
harder than it already was. That was the
state I was in when I got back home last night after a flight. Burned out, frustrated, tired. We went out to dinner and ran into another
couple we know well, which was great though it led to some excessive drinking
on my part. My mind and body were still running
on overdrive when we got home, and I was pretty tempted to spend some time
either watching a movie or surfing the Net, or both. But, Anne was having none of it. She ordered me to turn off the computer and
get ready for bed. I was very resentful
at the time, because that is how I react to being ordered around. But, it
undoubtedly saved me from feeling even more tired and draggy this morning.
That all leads me into this week’s
topic, which came to me after last night’s events and after catching up on some
of the comments from last week. You all
carried on a great conversation without me, and I particularly liked the exploration
of the relationship between self-discipline and discipline that is imposed
externally, whether by a strong Disciplinary Wife or by a military drill
sergeant. I can understand Elizabeth’s
concern about whether external discipline might actually become a crutch that inhibits
the formation of self-discipline, but I think Alan really hits the nail
on the head in observing that is it not a single spanking or sporadic discipline
that helps those of us who lack internal regulators. Instead, it is something that builds up over
time, with consistency being the key.
I
also do think that if the goal is to modify certain behaviors, then it may not
really matter whether the discipline comes from within or from without, as long
as it gets the job done. The military
model is also interesting in that the drill sergeant has a lot of limits placed
on him in terms of physical punishment.
The days of being literally whipped into shape are a thing of the past
in today’s army and navy. So, a lot of
the discipline comes through strong verbal guidance and direction. The military’s leaders express their
dominance through strict discipline conveyed through strongly-worded verbal commands
that convey their authority in such a strict and intimidating way that
resistance is rare. Another aspect of military training that dovetails with some of the things ZM and I were talking about regarding performing under challenging circumstances that in many cases those being trained are not, in fact, undisciplined. Think of the SEALs. Most of them are experienced operators before they undertake SEAL training, yet most of them scrub out of that program. It just requires a completely different level of performance. In those circumstances, the role of the trainers is to help those who can bust through their own self-limiting beliefs, pushing through those plateaus to reach a whole new level of performance they didn't even know they had in them.
I was thinking about all that
in relation to Anne’s direction last night.
She was firm and resolute and made it clear that she was not backing
down just because I was resistant and wanted to stay up later. I have talked a lot about my need for externally
imposed boundaries. Each of those three words are important. If I had the ability to impose boundaries on
myself, I would. Since I don’t on a
regular basis, I need the application of some external force to move me back onto
the path. And, because I am relative
headstrong, the force has to be imposed.
If I ask for it or direct the process, then it isn’t really being
imposed on me. And, the boundary
actually needs to be real. It can’t be something
that she adjusts every time I test it.
It needs to be me who yields, not her or the boundary she set.
What we are really talking
about is strictness. Setting a rule and
making it stick. Setting a standard and
invoking real consequences if it isn’t met.
I didn’t have much of that growing up, which I suspect is why I crave it
now. And, I increasingly think it is that
verbal strictness that I really want deep down inside. I’ve run polls on the blog a couple of times
regarding whether disciplined men want “more” or “less” of certain things in
the relationship. More or fewer
spankings? Harder spankings, or less so? More rules or fewer? There was a strong tilt toward more on every
factor. But, there was only one where
100% of respondents said they wanted more – verbal strictness. Every single man who answered the poll (76 of
them) said he wanted his wife to be more verbally strict.
Do I want that? Much like being spanked, it is very dependent
on timing. I certainly don’t like or
want it when it is happening. Like last
night. Did I like her making me go to
bed on time, like a teenager with a curfew?
Absolutely not. I resented the
hell out of it. Not really because I
resented her control in and of itself, but because I really wanted to stay up
and decompress more from the bad week, and she was saying I was not going to be
allowed to do that. She set the boundary,
and it was a real one as evidenced by the fact that as soon as I bumped up
against it I resisted and resisted and hated that I had to stay within the
bounds. But, this morning I recognize it
was, in fact, for my own good, and I appreciate her for being strict and unyielding
with me last night.
For the men, do you want your
wife to be more verbally strict? Do you respond
to the drill sergeant approach? For the
women, is being very commanding verbally something you are comfortable
with? I think this, more than any other
aspect of DD, is where the deeply entrenched female concerns about “bitchiness”
come into play. I dug up a couple of
comments on this from some old posts.
First, a perspective from one of the husbands:
“I did perceive my wife as bitchy, BEFORE we agreed on
a DD program to correct things that I did that angered her. Truthfully, I
agreed she had good cause for concluding I was a pain in the ass on some
occasions. We listed those things and I gave her enforcement powers to paddle
me as she felt I deserved when one of our agreements was violated. It didn't
take long for her to really buy into enforcing that agreement. Nor did it take
me long to eliminate troubling behaviors because the paddlings I got were
painful enough to be avoided. But most importantly I know the rules, my wife is
not bitchy (she is proactive at solving issues that were causing problems in
our marriage) and I appreciate that because it solves the issue quickly. I would
much rather have my wife paddle my behind good and hard than to listen to her
bitching or giving me the silent treatment.”
Now a couple from the
wives. This one from Holly:
“I think we are all "bitches" to our
husbands when the rubber hits the road (so to speak.) I reconciled myself to
this long ago. The amusing thing is that growing up I thought my mother was a
bitch for spanking too often and too severely. Now I find although I probably
do not spank as often as she did, I certainly spank harder. If a wife wants results,
she does need to be a “bitch” sometimes.
As Tina Fey said: " Bitches get stuff done.” I am not saying that
being a bitch is necessary to be a good disciplinarian. But, sometimes being a
bitch is just what is needed and don't be intimidated by the fact that someone
(like your husband) might think you are a bitch once in a while.”
And, this one from my good
friend Rhiannon, whose blog I have a link to:
“It must be difficult
in many ways to be a submissive male, but it is also difficult to be a Mistress
or a Female leader. Retraining my mind
so I don’t feel like I am just adding more to his plate or being a bitch is
hard. It is also hard to make the
choices. To really think about being in charge, the impact my actions have on
my husband and to strive with everything to make the best decisions I can. But, it also is hard not to make the choices,
and things go more smoothly for both of us the longer I stay in this new
role. And, in the end, it is so worth
it.”
I know I do need strong direction and my wife gives that to me. She has set rules that I must follow and if I break any of those rules I will be disciplined and punished. She can be verbally strict at times. Is my wife a bitch? I wouldn't say that. Most of the time she is very sweet but she will be verbal when she has to be but most of the time a spanking seems to work better that her being verbal. If we are at a mall or store and I annoy her she will take me to a family bathroom and put me over her knee and spank me with the hair brush she carries. One time after a spanking in a family bathroom we walked out a several people were standing outside the door smiling when we walked out. I think they heard the spanking or they heard me yelping and promising to be good. I do like my wife to be very strict and if it's verbal that's fine but most of the time it's her paddle that speaks.
ReplyDeleteThanks, Dan. There probably are some for whom spankings work better than verbal correction, some the opposite, and some who need both.
DeleteIt does not matter in this household what I prefer, my wife decides. Sometime it is just a scolding, other times it is a good old fashion over her lap spanking, bare bottom always. Oh she could care less if others hear or see me afterwards. Spankings are punishment and I must take what comes with it.
DeleteThis came up early for us as my wife did not want me to think "she is a..." or "she is doing this..." and becoming resentful against her. We are some what past that at this point, but she still hesitates outside of a clear, known, infraction and discipline situation.
ReplyDeleteJust like for most of us I think there is a dichotomy. We want to be strong males socially but crave discipline from somewhere to establish boundaries on that same psyche. Wife's (women) can be the same way, there is a part that wants to be a beautiful flower to be admired and a warrior at the same time. This amount many other dualities and dichotomies make up most people and is different for everyone.
For us I would prefer more verbal strictness and it is growing. She was capable of talking strict when she taught middle school but hesitant when it comes to me...which we continue to discuss.
I don't think in our case she needs to be a bitch, but to make an intersection between the physical and the verbal when it comes to execution of boundaries....now I am rambling.
Good point that on some level we all probably want to keep both parts of our personalities. We want to be strong but also have a place to be vulnerable and surrendered.
DeleteThis is Elizabeth's Frank. As we have mentioned before, Elizabeth has gotten very good at scolding and verbal reprimands. Her voice had gotten louder over the years. She is much more assertive. She does it all with a wry smile, sort of a smirk. It says several things to me. It says now the DD game is on. It says you and I know what's transpiring, even if others don't. It says you better change your behavior or you're going to get it. The smile makes her verbal reprimands not be bitchy, even if the words might sound that way. I love the whole thing and find it erotic.
ReplyDeleteMy smile also says, "Silly man! How could you possibly be doing what you are doing when you know I will blister your behind for it?"
DeleteElizabeth
Interesting topic. Would I like Mrs GL to be more verbal in the build up and actual session? Yes I would and I have in the past suggested so. Do I think she will? No not presently. Why not? Partly having kids around and partly because whilst I can deal with the implisit power control that would flow with that she struggles. But hey oh I live in hope she will one day replicate some of the experiences I have garnered elsewhere :-). Cheers Good Life Mickey.
ReplyDeleteYeah, having kids around definitely seems to restrict the verbal strictness. It’s another of those things that makes me wish we had started the FLR side of our relationship earlier and that we had put it on more open display.
DeleteVery interesting to read this topic. For me I do prefer my wife to be verbally strict when required as I like the 'no choices aspect'. Discipline is something I thrive on and the 'naughty boy' aspect is very appealing, up until the spanking starts! There is no doubt that in most respects I am HoH but when necessary my wife can and will take charge, and that is perfect!
ReplyDeleteHi Martin. I agree, something about verbal strictness seems both maternal and authoritative in a way that complements the spanking part of the relationship.
DeleteI absolutely agree that I want Rosa to be more verbally strict.........except, of course, when I don't want her to be. In this way the scolding issue is exactly like all of the others in DD................it's great when I'm in the right mindset, wished and longed for when desired, and completely unwelcome when I'm in a different frame of mind.
ReplyDelete(I would also like to suggest a future topic or poll for the guys: "How often do you see behavior in your partner that YOU feel needs correction? Maybe not punishment, but certainly a change. And what do you do about it? And how does the occasional substantial flaw in a dominant spouse affect your ability to take her criticism for something more minor?")
My one caveat is I can't say I *ever* want the scolding or verbal strictness when it is actually happening. There is never a mindset I am in that is fully accepting of it while it is happening. Moreover, my emotional reaction to it in the moment is far more resentful than anything I've ever experienced at the onset of a spanking. Maybe that speaks paradoxically to which I really need more?
DeleteI can do that as a topic though, unfortunately, not as a poll. Google eliminated the Poll gadget.
Kd - You mention a "frame of mind". Do you expect her to know this an do/don't respond a certain way or is it irrelevant and she does what she sees fit anyway?
DeleteI would think in a "pure" DD situation it would be more of the later. Behavior X gets response Y regardless of your mindset.
Just curious how you handle it.
Somethingrandom: We are both very mood-driven and we can both read these moods in each other pretty easily. If the non-verbal clues don't work, we still have the ability to speak. She is as susceptible to altering DD understandings based on mood as I am....maybe more so, so she is pretty open to tailoring what we do to the signals I'm sending in most cases. I will say that in the instances of genuine misbehavior that she is very clear on, my mood will probably only serve to postpone things but not eliminate them. Neither of us want our DD to turn into something ugly for the sake of "purity", which could happen if rigid policy forced actions that either of us were not comfortable with in the moment.
DeleteDan, like you I often feel resentful of scolding or verbal strictness while it is happening, but beyond the resentment or embarrassment I might feel in the moment, I an grateful to my wife for being verbally strict. You mentioned feeling resentful about being made to go to bed at a certain time like a teenager with a curfew. I identify strongly with that because I often have to stop something I am doing because my wife says it's bed time, and I often feel a strong urge to rebel and assert my freedom as an adult. However, if I don't obey immediately, my wife's voice becomes stern, and that is enough to quell my rebellious impulse. It is an interesting coincidence that my wife has developed a verbal signal that is identical to one my mother used to use when I was young: "Don't make me tell you again!" When my mother said that, the implication was that if she had to tell me again, she would let the hairbrush or belt do the talking. I knew that from experience. I think that phrase implies the same threat from my wife, but I never put it to the test.
DeleteI should mention that my wife's control over my bedtime is not an arbitrary exercise of power. If she is awakened after she falls asleep, she has a hard time getting back to sleep, so she doesn't want me coming to bed after she is asleep. That means that my bedtime is whenever she goes to bed.
An interesting thing about verbal strictness is that because it is not as obviously kinky as spanking, my wife doesn't think she needs to be secretive about it, the way she is about spankings. We have one adult son who is temporarily back at home, and my wife talks to me as strictly when he is there as when we are alone. She has never openly threatened to spank me when he is there, but I think my son might be able to read between the lines that there is sometimes an implied threat behind her bossy manner. In front of our other son and our daughter-in-law, my wife tones down the bossiness a bit, but she doesn't hide it completely.
While scolding may not be as obviously kinky, maybe for that reason I think her doing it in public would be more embarrassing than others knowing about the spanking part of our relationship. After 50 Shades, spanking kink seems pretty mainstream. Our kids don’t know about the DD part of our relationship (as far as I know), but I’m not sure they would be any more or less mortified by it as any kid is when the subject is sex between their parents. But, something about others knowing about the power shift in our relationship is way more threatening to my male ego than others knowing about the spanking.
DeleteThis is Elizabeth. We live in a rural area where many of the men work outdoors. They are traditional men. They consider themselves the head of the household, and they sit at the head of the table at dinner. Many wives do not work outside the home.
DeleteBut our area also is very matriarchal. Especially with the older generation; it is the grandmother who runs the house. And it is nothing to have her lecture her husband or her adult sons or even her adult sons-in-law. That's just accepted in our part of the Midwest.
The males in the household don't do much scolding. The women are primarily responsible for child care, and they are primarily the ones who discipline children.
And when it comes to adult interactions, the males tend to be the strong silent type and the women are the scolders. This seems to occur in most families, and of course very few of them are employing DD. So verbal reprimands from females are commonplace around here. It isn't really considered a change in the power dynamic.
I'm sure that other parts of the country and more urban areas might be different. But that's our experience and it allows for quite a bit of verbal reprimands from females without anyone raising an eyebrow.
Hi Elizabeth. I grew up in a more rural environment, and I kind of get the dynamic you are describing. Though, where I grew up the men were definitely involved in discipline. I doubt any of us made it through childhood without feeling dad's belt. But, the reality was that every adult felt totally OK disciplining any kid. It was just part of the background.
DeleteFor me verbal strictness, scolding and lectures work powerfully when discipline is happening, something she usually signals with her tone of voice or a command to bring her the brush. I respond to it deeply and quickly with almost instant obedience. There is something about a strict woman particularly one with a hairbrush in her hands that literary can make my legs quake But in the early years she probably spanked a lot more than she scolded and while those spankings did both establish her authority and begin behavior change for me, they didn’t bring about the surrender she now gets with strictness and started to get only when she combined spanking with strict orders and prolonged scolding’s. But paradoxically I don’t respond well to being “nagged” or badgered” when she has no intention to threaten or carry out punishment. So, when she is in DD mode, strictness and scolding is almost more effective than getting spanked and it puts me in a zone of absolute obedience and submission even when a spanking is the last thing I want at the time. But if she is not exercising her authority and simply bitches at me (Especially for small things. like leaving the refrigerator door open or forgetting a shopping item on the list, that does not work.) She has learned this about me even as I was learning it about myself, so today unhappiness with my behavior most often produces a spanking or the threat of one rather than nagging. It has too I think made her focus more on the big things that really matter in our relationship. But we did go through a learning period.
ReplyDeleteAlan
"Leaving the refrigerator door open?" Huh? How does that even happen?
DeleteThis is Elizabeth's Frank. I also respond immediately to scolding. It touches me on the deepest level. There is clearly something maternal and even protective about the way Elizabeth scolds me. I cannot refuse.
DeleteWith DD, she does not nag. She says it once, sweetly, "Would you like to pick up your socks or would you like to keep watching the game and put this on your Friday list for double punishment and then pick up your socks?" And she smiles her authoritative smile. Sends me scurrying!
Frank
That’s an interesting angle on it Alan, that the scolding really works only in connection with DD but not otherwise.
DeleteDan
DeleteThat is because "otherwise" seems nagging rather than disciplinary scolding. My reaction -irrational as it probably is: I have ceded all this authority to her to deal with just this sort of issue, and rather than use that authority she choose to nag (I said it was irrational) eliminating nagging can be one of the wonderful benefits of DD and to be fair we don’t have that much of it
Alan
No, I get it. That doesn't seem irrational to me. To me, the difference between nagging and strictness is authority. If she tells me to do something and the tone makes it clear that disobedience is not an option, that doesn't come off to me as nagging. Conversely, if she's just being critical on something small but not actually doing anything about it, that comes off as nagging.
DeleteHere is how DD has turned silent resentment and occasional explosions into effective scolding:
ReplyDeleteBefore DD, I would see misbehavior and not say anything, building up internal resentment instead. "What does he think I am? His maid? His slave? He can't even bother to pick his socks up off the floor! He acts like a little boy!"
So I would harbor that resentment and passive-aggressively punish with the silent treatment (which DD hubbies tend to hate worse than anything). He knew I was angry, of course, but had no idea about what, and that left him just as frustrated as I was.
Periodically the resentment would build up like a volcano and explode and I would bitch at him: "What do you think I am? Your maid? Your slave? You can't even bother to pick your socks up off the floor! You act like such a little boy!"
And then we would be mad at each other and not talk for hours.
Then he wrote me that email on his 50th birthday. And he talked about resentment and some things he had learned about it in his men's group. That it was anger turned inward. "It's like taking poison and expecting the other person to die." And that it had an antidote: assertiveness. And he asked me to say what was on my mind at the time, before it became a volcano. And to enforce my concerns with my paddle.
So now, with a smirk on my face my paddle in my hand, and a lilt in my voice, I scold on Friday night, "What do you think i am? Your maid? Your slave? You can't even pick your socks up off the floor? You act like such a little boy!
"Now bend over!"
Elizabeth
“It’s like taking poison and expecting the other person to die.” I really like that and will find an excuse to use it in a business meeting sometime soon.
DeleteHi Dan,
ReplyDeleteGreat topic and great discussion so far! I was happy and surprised to see this week’s topic since I had been thinking about bitchiness and how I seem to need that during DD, even though I much prefer her pleasant disposition the rest of the time. Or perhaps I just like that this weeks topic better because it is less results-based than previous weeks, so I can feel better about it! Changed behaviors take lots of time and consistency, and we have been struggling with having enough of either, so it is slow progress. Also for me (I know it is different for others) changed behavior is a small part of the lure of DD, and is dwarfed by the other benefits.
For me, verbal strictness is a huge component of DD. It might even be more significant than the actual punishments. But as I said earlier, I don’t want this verbal strictness or bitchiness all the time; it must be situational, and switched on and off. Also, it is not just strictness I crave, but with a certain attitude. Both Frank and Elizabeth alluded to the fun/game aspect of this. I think this attitude plays particularly well for DD. I liked Frank’s “it says the DD game is on” comment, so it is kind of bitchiness with a smile. I think this is very much like our overall approach to DD. All at once it is very much a game and it is very real. We use a game to try to effect real change, address real problems, and it results in real improvements to our life together and our relationship.
I think as Alan said, verbal strictness and hard punishment go perfectly hand in hand, and together are much more powerful than the individual components. If it is not an admonition to do something or get punished, a real threat of impending punishment, or a scolding done in conjunction with a punishment, I am more likely to tune it out or be annoyed by it. However, if it is done with a real threat of punishment or during a punishment, then it becomes powerful indeed.
I expect that much of the power of verbal strictness for me is due to the humiliation aspect. At least for me, humiliation is a huge part of any successful punishment, since my overly strong ego needs to take a hit (in addition to my bottom of course) in order for the message to really get through to me. A severe punishment without verbal strictness or scolding is just a wasted opportunity, since it will hurt my bottom much more than my pride. So just like other humiliations can be used to amplify a punishment, ramping up verbal strictness will greatly amplify whatever physical punishment she might be administering. I guess when my ego is knocked down, it clears a path between my bottom and my brain!
Finally, I should mention that just like physical punishment, I don’t really like or appreciate verbal strictness at the time. In fact, especially when she continues to scold during a punishment I feel very much like “yeah, I get it” and hope that she will just quit with the scolding. However, at any other time (including shortly after a punishment) I crave more of it, so if she does go light on either element (scolding or spanking), the long-term disappointment far outlives my short term feeling of relief.
-ZM
Hi ZM. My reaction varies a lot by context, and we also seem to be in the middle of a real change in this whole area. In the past, her lectures were confined almost exclusively to immediately before a spanking. And, in that context, I really wish she would be more "bitchy." In that context, I wish she would just really cut loose on me, because I feel like I need that to have any hope of getting past that "overly strong ego" you reference.
DeleteOutside the context of the prelude to a spanking, I am not quite with you on "much preferring her pleasant disposition the rest of the time." While I may not like it at the moment she is being verbally strict with me, I do seem to be craving that kind of treatment right now. There is something very maternal about what I am desiring now, but with a very big emphasis on a *strict* maternal approach. Honestly, I just want her to be more consistently strict with me.
And, unlike you, Frank and Elizabeth, I really don't want the fun/game aspect where the strictness is concerned. I want it to feel very real, and I think I need it to feel that way if I am going to feel like she is really imposing boundaries. I don't want the "bitchiness with a smile" approach. To the contrary, I'd prefer she be very tough and very direct when scolding me for something.
Now, that is not to say that I don't think there is something erotic about this, so in that respect there may be a "fun" element. I do think that when she is being tough with me, it is incredibly erotic. I may not feel that way in the moment, but when I look back on it, it can be a huge turn-on.
My scolding is very real, backed up by a very real sorority paddle. But I can smile while I lecture. It means "I love you but you better do as I say."
Delete"The game is on" does not mean that the scolding isn't real. I understand that some may not want the smile. Frank does.
Elizabeth
Hi Dan,
DeleteI am not sure how different we are in regards to strictness. It is hard enough to understand my own still-developing thoughts on the many aspects of DD, let alone to clearly articulate them!
I have mentioned numerous times that I want her to be much, much more strict and to do so more consistently. We even went further down that road with "boot camp" and daily reviews, with the idea that she should really ramp up her expectations. However, I don't want or expect her to be strict and bitchy 24/7. Instead, when she sees a behavior that needs addressing, or when it comes to matters that we have agreed that she will monitor and control, or even just randomly whenever she feels like it, everything should change. Ideally it should be like a switch is flipped and "nice wife" is not to be seen again until afterwards, replaced during the interim period by the super strict bitchy wife who simply cannot be pleased.
I think it would be impossible for her to be bitchy all the time, and I am pretty certain that neither of us would like that. It just isn't her nature. At the same time, I do want consistency and follow through, so if she says something, it should happen just as she says each time and every time.
Here is an example of how it might all play out. Let's say that on Monday she has given me several tasks that I need to complete by Friday. Everything should be pretty normal between us after she has given her instructions. However, maybe on Wednesday she might see that I haven't even started yet. This is where she might playfully remind me that Friday is coming, and tell me that based on what she is seeing so far, Saturday isn't looking much like a sitting kind of day. Even though she is quite playful at this point, she might let a little of hard edge show through by saying that there is no chance of her being the least bit lenient or understanding since she can see that I haven't been at all serious about getting started on it. So this is the time that I get “bitchiness with a smile” where she is having fun with it and is kind of teasing me, but in the end she is also drop-dead serious about the underlying issue.
Friday evening, assuming I didn't finish, she might say in a very matter-of-fact way "well, I see that you didn't do as I asked. We will be discussing this tomorrow." Since she has already declared that punishment is coming, she can then be her normal, nice self, knowing that I will soon pay dearly for not doing what I was supposed to. The sometime Saturday she tells me to get into the room, get naked, make everything ready, and wait for her in the corner (or whatever she wishes). At this point, this is where the switch flips and I from then on I should see only strictness and bitchiness (the same as your "I'd prefer she be very tough and very direct when scolding me for something”) until the issue is resolved to her satisfaction.
In the end, I am not sure if game is the right word, because I too want it to be completely real in every way possible. Especially during the times punishment is being administered, I don't want to feel like it is fun in any way, and instead want to feel like a naughty little boy being chastised. But overall, I do know that even though we are trying to do real punishments for real reasons, there is still a very erotic overtone, maybe not during the punishments, but at least at all the other times.
Anyway, at least for me this is how the whole thing fits together. As I re-read what I wrote, I can see how it all seems pretty maternal. Perhaps the more full-time thing that you are wanting right now is where it crosses over more from DD to FLR?
Anyway, loving the conversation by everyone this week!
-ZM
Hi ZM. It's hard to articulate what I want right now. I think it is more of the FLR aspect than the DD, but without an emphasis on the F. Basically, it's wanting to be led more and wanting to be controlled, but not for erotic reasons. I am one of the classic non-submissives who are attracted to DD precisely because it requires giving up some of the control and responsibility that I have to exercise in the rest of my life. I think right now I am craving being controlled because my work life feels so chaotic right now. I just feel very, very out of control--or burdened by the need to be in control--and it leads to craving someone else to pick up the reins and make me behave and perform. I say it is FLR without the F, because it isn't the "female" component, i.e. the female dominance, erotically charged piece of it that is driving it. Rather, it is the need to be very forcefully brought into line. Frankly, a strong boss or coach probably could fill the same need. Though, while I don't think eroticism is driving the underlying desire, that definitely is a by-product.
DeleteZM, so does your wife flip a switch whenever you want her to and transform from a b**** with a smile to a b**** with no smile to a nice friendly wife? Because if Frank asked me to do that, I would tell him to forget the whole thing. It doesn't seem authentic and I don't think I could possibly do it. It would be way too much work, for one thing, and it would feel like he was running the show, for another, pulling my puppet strings. I am not transforming into whateve he wants me to be in the moment, and I doubt most disciplinary wives would. But if your wife is fine doing that for you and is able to do it then more power to you both. Chacun a son gout
ReplyDeleteElizabeth
Hi Elizabeth,
DeleteGreat question, and a good point you make!
The key part that I probably didn't convey well in my message to Dan is that SHE ALONE decides her attitude at every step of the way. Consequently, it is her who decides there is something that needs to be addressed, her who may remind me after a while with a twinkle in her eye, and her who decides if a punishment is required and if so, she also decides every detail of punishments, including her demeanor (which generally is very much matter-of-fact and serious once she has decided to punish).
What I was describing is kind of how ideally it all might work for us, but I don't dictate to her how everything should go, or as you said it would completely undermine authenticity. I only have introduced her to DD, and she has taken to it like a duck to water. The feedback I have given her along the way is mostly to allay her completely understandable concerns that maybe she was being too harsh, which is almost never the case.
However, even though I was describing an idealization of her attitude in different situations, I think that generally it pretty well tracks with the posture she naturally assumes. As I said, she is a natural a this!
-ZM
Dan,
ReplyDeleteI don't think spouses should be responsible for straightening out their spouse's work situation because the spouse is not there and is hearing only one side of the story. I would feel ill-equipped to fix problems at Frank's work and consider it way beyond my purview. In our marriage it would be asking for trouble and be way beyond our DD area of influence. Maybe a co-worker could help?
Elizabeth
Elizabeth, Anne hasn’t expressed any reluctance in that area. In fact, she seems to see my work life and the behavioral challenges she does see (temper, intemperance, procrastination and lack of focus) as intertwined, and they kind of are. I think DD can involve both things that impact the dominant spouse and more of a “life coach” role. Now, that may not work for a particular wife or couple, but mine has been more than willing to take care of reported work issues. I do think in an ideal world she would get more than just my side of the story and, in fact, it would be a great thing if I had someone to rat me out about any bad workplace behavior. But, that is a problem I’ve never found a good way to solve. The fantasy would be something like an administrative assistant or colleague who would share with Anne anything going on but, frankly, my current assistant is kind of weird and about the last person I would want having much contact with my wife. Now, I am pretty confident that her predecessor actually was into BDSM, so that one might have developed into an interesting dynamic over time.
DeleteOne way to get you to self-report is for your wife to start paddling you and then ask you what you need to tell about your work performance and to keep paddling you until she is convinced that you have told it all ... with severe consequences if anything comes out later. Call it "imposed self-reporting ..."
ReplyDeleteElizabeth
We haven’t really had to go there. The reporting regime we instituted a few weeks ago seems to be working pretty well, and it includes the work issues that we agreed were most significant.
DeleteIf it's "working pretty well," why do you feel "very, very out of control" and "need to be very forcefully brought into line"? That's confusing ...
DeleteElizabeth
It’s working pretty well in that the reporting is actually happening, she is actively reminding me to get it done every Saturday morning and the discipline is being carried out. So, the process of reporting and follow-through is going well and becoming more consistent than it was in the past. That doesn’t mean that it is going to have an immediate effect on the either the behavior or the sense of being controlled. In fact, what I am observing right now is that as work has become more and more demanding, I’m not sure DD really *can* have “fix” the underlying need and at most it can moderate the bad behavior. The underlying need to be brought into line and to feel a greater sense of having boundaries increasingly seems better met by the verbal strictness, bossiness and generally being subject to stronger external control and direction. DD is kind of inherently backward looking, while verbal strictness can be more prospective and prophylactic.
DeleteI don't agree that DD is backward-looking. The whole goal is to improve future behavior by punishing past behavior. To me that is forward-looking.
ReplyDeleteElizabeth
Joe2 here,
ReplyDeleteMy wife is not strict in voice or manner until it is time for a spanking and then it is all business. Why? Because I asked her too and she has realized that the spanking is more effective when she exerts authority. When pain and mental activity are struggling for dominance, her actions and voice ensure compliance. When I am struggling to stay in position, I really need to focus on why I am there and let the pain do its job. Her firm touch and stern voice helps me stay in position with little brain activity.
I will give an example. One night my wife was using a cane and the tip hit a little to the side and a wee bit high. The pain was unbelievable, it was as if lighting hit my butt and a thin jagged line went up my back to my shoulder blade. I levitated up and screamed as if I was being skinned. Without pause my wife firmly pushed me back down and told me to bite on the towel and stay in position. Without thought, I did as she instructed. If she had not done that, I would have probably taken a while to get back into position and start focusing on what exactly just happened (rather than continue to accept the spanking).
OBTW, I still don’t know what happened and it has never happened again. My only thought is that the tip hit a nerve. But what nerve starts at the bottom and travels to the shoulder blade?
Hi Joe2. I haven't experienced the pain shooting up to the shoulder that you describe, but I have experienced the unreal pain of the cane tip wrapping around and hitting the hip high up. I made the mistake of taking ZM's advice on synthetic canes, and for the first time Anne started getting into them. While my bottom seldom bruises any more, I found the same is not true of my hips from the cane. Her first session left me with very prominent bruising that lasted many days.
Delete