Hi all. Welcome back to the Disciplinary Couples Club. Our weekly gathering of men and women who are in, or would like to be in, Domestic Discipline or Female Led Relationships.
I hope you all had a good week. Mine was, as anticipated, unbelievably busy, and it's not remotely close to over yet. But, whether this goes on for another six weeks or ends abruptly is suddenly a bit in doubt. Unfortunately, in the meantime, I can't pull back at all. So, my warning that posts may be short or non-existent over the next few weeks remains in force. But, since I have a tiny bit of time this morning . . .
I wanted to follow up on the issue raised by the KD Pierre cartoon I posted last week. It seems to simply be a truism that in these relationships--whether DD, FLR or, in the case of KD's cartoon, BDSM or Femdom oriented--it is the "bottom" who usually is more engaged in the dynamic. Sometimes to the point of obsession. While the Tops may accommodate or even be into it, often it just isn't as pervasive or all-consuming for them. Any ideas why that might be?
For myself, as I have discussed many times, I didn't have any desire for DD at all--and had never even heard of adult disciplinary spanking--until I was well into my 30s. Yet, despite having no pre-existing desire for it, once I did discover it, it hit me like a truck. Looking back, I suspect that while I did not have any kind of dormant need for spanking, I always had a need for boundaries. I grew up largely without them, and throughout my teens, twenties and even early thirties, I was prone to excessive and extreme behavior, and often felt totally out of control even if the people around me saw me as competent and successful. I think that when I discovered DD, for the first time I recognized that there might actually be a cure for my internal angst and anxiety. My wife, on the other hand, has always been a balanced person with a balanced temperament. I think she doesn't get obsessed with DD in the way I do (or used to, at any rate), because she is already in a state of relevant balance, while I am not. Now, she does like it, and it does help balance her sometimes more passive personality, because it helps her be more forceful and assertive. But, her starting point is just different and less excessive, while my natural state is so unbalanced that I consciously or unconsciously feel a tug more often toward whatever moderates that tendency.
Anyway, that's my rambling thought on this Saturday morning, before I go off to engage with my excessive and unbalanced life some more.
Dan
I hope you all had a good week. Mine was, as anticipated, unbelievably busy, and it's not remotely close to over yet. But, whether this goes on for another six weeks or ends abruptly is suddenly a bit in doubt. Unfortunately, in the meantime, I can't pull back at all. So, my warning that posts may be short or non-existent over the next few weeks remains in force. But, since I have a tiny bit of time this morning . . .
I wanted to follow up on the issue raised by the KD Pierre cartoon I posted last week. It seems to simply be a truism that in these relationships--whether DD, FLR or, in the case of KD's cartoon, BDSM or Femdom oriented--it is the "bottom" who usually is more engaged in the dynamic. Sometimes to the point of obsession. While the Tops may accommodate or even be into it, often it just isn't as pervasive or all-consuming for them. Any ideas why that might be?
For myself, as I have discussed many times, I didn't have any desire for DD at all--and had never even heard of adult disciplinary spanking--until I was well into my 30s. Yet, despite having no pre-existing desire for it, once I did discover it, it hit me like a truck. Looking back, I suspect that while I did not have any kind of dormant need for spanking, I always had a need for boundaries. I grew up largely without them, and throughout my teens, twenties and even early thirties, I was prone to excessive and extreme behavior, and often felt totally out of control even if the people around me saw me as competent and successful. I think that when I discovered DD, for the first time I recognized that there might actually be a cure for my internal angst and anxiety. My wife, on the other hand, has always been a balanced person with a balanced temperament. I think she doesn't get obsessed with DD in the way I do (or used to, at any rate), because she is already in a state of relevant balance, while I am not. Now, she does like it, and it does help balance her sometimes more passive personality, because it helps her be more forceful and assertive. But, her starting point is just different and less excessive, while my natural state is so unbalanced that I consciously or unconsciously feel a tug more often toward whatever moderates that tendency.
Anyway, that's my rambling thought on this Saturday morning, before I go off to engage with my excessive and unbalanced life some more.
Dan
I'm going to say that one difference is inherent to the perception of dominance and submission. I have been "in charge".........as a parent, as a manager, and even on the occasional D/s outing where I've been the Top. When you are in that position, your mind goes towards what needs to be done and how you are going to motivate those subordinate to you to do what needs to be done. I can't answer for anyone else, but I can say that my thoughts never really focused on any negative perceptions of being in charge......as long as one did a good job leading. When the task was accomplished, there might have been a recognition of effort and a feeling of satisfaction......and then it was either time to move on to the next task, or relax before the next task.
ReplyDeleteAs a sub, I wrestle with the legitimacy of it. I have to rationalize why it's OK for me to be in a subordinate position. At work I would try to see if there was a trait in the person above me that made them worthy ......beyond accident of rank.....or if that failed, just think: "well this is what I'm being PAID to do.I'm being COMPENSATED for my cooperation." In a D/s relationship it is similar but given the extreme nature of authority and punishment.....as an adult who doesn't HAVE to do this, I find I have to spend more time rationalizing it....and possibly eroticizing it as well.
Focusing on the 'why' and allowing the eroticism to salve the internal conflicts, leads to "feeling it" more constantly. And as for that pervasiveness, there is an inherent 24/7 aspect to being obedient that does not plague the person making the rules.
(Take making the bed. If a Top wants the bed made as a house rule, they really only care if the task is not done at a particular moment. I doubt Tops eagerly look at the bed each day wondering if it will or will not be made as per instruction. That's why Tops sometimes don't even notice when something is not done, if at the time it is not important to them.
BUT, what of the sub who is SUPPOSED to make the bed? They have to remember daily to do it. And while making it, they are aware of the consequences if they don't. Then even once made, the bed is a reminder of how they obeyed their rule one more time and will likely obey it again tomorrow. To a sub EVERY moment of their day is an awareness of obedience and consequence......all under an awareness that most other people they know are not subject to those same circumstances, and circumstances they were not bullied into, but agreed to.)
But perhaps the biggest factor for why subs seem more obsessed than Tops is because they are the ones more usually driven by need. Topping is often considered fun and adventurous for many willing Tops who are not strongly driven by their own desires. It's fun. But if it didn't happen, they'd get over it. Again, this is not true for hardwired Dominants.... especially those who can't find a willing playmate, because these folks can become just as obsessed as any sub. (don't believe me? I'll point you to a website that is home to tons of frustrated Dominants married to vanilla spouses.) However, from interacting with others, it does seem that the need to submit is the one that drives so many partners to seeking an outlet, or revealing their desire to a spouse. It just seems that once the desire is met, the Dominant is more apt to revert to balance whereas the sub seems to perpetually obsess.
Great points. I think my wife is in the "fun and adventurous"camp. It's odd, but I don't spend much time rationalizing subordination at work or at home, though from totally different angles than you lay out here. At work, I rarely submit at all, so if I spent any time at all on the "why," it is much more likely to be about why I can't seem to bring myself to submit to anyone. At home, on the other hand, I don't spend any time rationalizing why this is right. That's not to say I don't question why I need this. I'm always curious about what drives people into these relationships, including myself. So, I do want to know the why, but I don't fee any need to justify it to myself as "right" or "ok." I need this, and that's really all there is to it.
DeleteI'm convinced that the 'need' KD talks about is practically a natural state in a many men's lives - particularly middle-aged married men. There are probably many factors at play - some possibilities:
ReplyDeleteCultural - men are sharing the work outside and inside the home, and learning some appreciation for what their wives are dealing with.
Sexual - for long-time committed married men with no desire to stray, sex becomes less frequent, while the male sex drive, craving for novelty and inputs from the hyper-sexual world just keep on going.
Social - men aren't bowling, or at the Moose Lodge anymore - they're home at night with their wives. What should we do now?
Biochemical - whether it's a decline in testosterone or something else going on in our bodies, it reveals this submission under the surface.
These combine to drive the male to greater acts of devotion. I started with orgasm control and 'discovered' DD through this site and others. (Thanks!) And because all those factors are constantly at work, they feature in his psyche full time.
At least, all these have been my experiences. I've called this my 'midlife crisis' before - at least it's a cheap one! But what I see online makes it look pretty widespread.
CrimsonKing
Hi CK. The biochemical aspect is interesting. I had not thought of that as a possible explanation for why this population seems to tilt toward the middle-aged and older. Though, it also doesn't quite seem to fit the profile of many of the commenters here, since many of them (including Alan, ZM and others) admit to having this obsession since early adulthood or earlier.
DeleteI know what you mean about the cheap mid-life crisis. Last year I was contemplating a pretty dramatic career change, and one of my colleagues asked, "Why can't you have a normal professional mid-life crisis and just get a blonde and a sports car?"
Hi Dan,
ReplyDeleteIt does seem to be an almost universal truth in DD relationships that the bottom is much more into it. I think it is closely related to the other question of who initiated the DD relationship, which is again almost always the bottom. Both you and KD already hit on several reasons that came to my mind for this difference in motivation.
I really related to what KD had to say about the differences between being in charge and being the one to follow orders, which applies to many things in life, though I don't really struggle with the legitimacy of submission. Also, I think he is very much right about it automatically being more 24/7 for the person following the orders while it requires much less mindshare for the person giving the orders. They can give say what needs to be done and not think more about it, unless they happen to notice it isn't done and decide to act upon it.
And both of you mentioned what I think is the primary reason for this motivation gap, which is that of felt need. Like you, for me a big part of the attraction to DD/FRR that I actually need imposed and enforced boundaries, without which I feel like I am out of control.
However, unlike you Dan, I have had a morbid fascination with spanking for as much of my life as I can remember. Also very much like in your situation, my wife has gotten into this even though she certainly doesn't “need” it, and she is much more balanced than I am. However, unlike your wife, being assertive comes quite naturally to my wife.
I expect (but certainly don't know) that for our friends who are more into femdom and BDSM there is a much less distinct difference between the motivation level of tops and bottoms. I suspect that those who “need” to be dominant are more likely to pursue BDSM, where the dominance and submission are more pronounced. In the same way, I would think that in a domestic context, as the wife is more motivated, the relationship is more likely to drift more to the FLR side of the spectrum, rather than DD.
So how does it all work for us? Well, me and my wife have only been doing this for a few years, so it is still evolving. First off, I can definitely say that I am much more into it than her. It was me who brought DD up, and she had never even heard of it before. She took to it better than I could have dared to dream, but still it is much more on my mind than hers. I look at things online, probably too much, and every month or so we look at the pictures or videos I have downloaded. She is certainly very interested in it, but overall I don't think it is on her mind nearly as much as mine.
Interestingly enough, even though it is always on my mind, she brings it up much more often than me. I think it is because of the “shyness” we have talked about before. I always want it to be more imposed, for her to be much, much, much more strict, for her to punish me much longer when she chooses to, etc. At the same time, I still feel embarrassed when we talk about it or when I show her pictures, and while I am always thinking about the next discipline session, when it actually comes I feel very shy and don't want it to happen. This is even more true with humiliations, which I can't stop thinking about during normal times, but then they are just so very embarrassing when they do happen, which is guess is kind of the point...
Anyway, the underlying psychology of DD/FLR is certainly interesting, to say the least!
-ZM
"I think [KD] is very much right about it automatically being more 24/7 for the person following the orders while it requires much less mindshare for the person giving the orders. They can give say what needs to be done and not think more about it, unless they happen to notice it isn't done and decide to act upon it."
DeleteDan: I had not thought of this before, but I think you both hit on something with this.
"And both of you mentioned what I think is the primary reason for this motivation gap, which is that of felt need. Like you, for me a big part of the attraction to DD/FRR that I actually need imposed and enforced boundaries, without which I feel like I am out of control."
Dan: Exactly!!
"I would think that in a domestic context, as the wife is more motivated, the relationship is more likely to drift more to the FLR side of the spectrum, rather than DD."
Dan: I think that's right. Though in my wife's case, she is not naturally dominant, yet, she is consciously moving the relationship more into the FLR dynamic.
"I always want it to be more imposed, for her to be much, much, much more strict, for her to punish me much longer when she chooses to, etc."
Dan: Yes, same here. I don't think she quite gets when I tell her that it is not just that I want her to be strict with me. Rather, I want her to be MUCH more strict! And, much more consistent with that strictness.
Dan
ReplyDeleteAnna feels I should answer this week's question. We came to spanking in a roundabout way. We were in marriage therapy. Our marriage was on the verge of ending. One nite i mentioned in passing that before I met Anna, when I felt overwhelmed or guilty about things i went to a female domme for spankings. I explained that the why was my way of resetting.
There in therapy we made a set of rules that we both agreed upon deserved a change from me. The one serious thing that Anna put at the head of the list was driving while drinking. The next time I came in with booze on my breathe the belt came out. Anna adapted to this quickly. I t turned out to be a great release for her resentment.
That was about 6 years ago. We have refined all of it. Let me state she hits hard with belt, paddle and/or cane.
I hate it. Once when we started I got aroused as i went over her knee. She made me stop and jerk off and then used my own belt on me. Lesson learned. Today there is punishment on her terms. I wait naked in our room nose to the wall for between an hour to three. Spanking, a lecture me kneeling at her feet, no release and then bed. For us it works. My behavior is much improved. Our marriage is almost void of disagreement. Telling you about this has aroused me, but then there will be no spanking to follow this essay. Thanks guys, and good luck to all. Our reasons and needs are our own. Embarce yours!
peter
Thanks, Peter. While I see how this is related to DD in general, the actual question was about why these relationships are more compelling for bottoms than Tops. Perspective on that?
DeleteDan
DeleteFor me it all boils down to one thing. It seems to put me in balance. Levels me. I am used to getting my own way, doing what i want in the time frame i want. For my work that aggressive attitude has
proven successful.. Anna'a discipline centers me. I dont know that it is more compelling to bottoms.
I dont doubt that are many women who feel empowered by the control. The discipline makes me think before i act especially with Anna and the boys.
Peter
Is there a selection bias? For example, you can make a vanalia a top much easier than making them a bottom. In a way the bottom controls the relationship by the matter of consent (otherwise it is abuse). So if you are a top you have to find a bottom, a bottom can make a top, but that top may not be "into" it but do it anyway. The roles themselves lend to the bottom having to be more committed.
ReplyDeleteIn our case I am more committed than her. It helps and changes me. While she likes that, she does it for only that reason.
VERY good point. I had not thought of that, but it seems clearly right in understanding why this pattern
DeleteMy unhelpful contribution is to admit I get as excited/obcessed with being top or a bottom in equal messure, however that does not mean I can do both at the same time. Cheers GLM
ReplyDeleteThat is interesting.
DeleteIt is much easier to tell your partner that you want them to take charge and to discipline you in painful, humiliating ways than it would be to tell them you want them to submit to you and that you want to discipline them in painful, humiliating ways.
ReplyDeleteYes, I think that is probably true.
DeleteHi Dan,
ReplyDeleteThis has been rolling around in my head all week, and I really haven't thought of any great reason for the obvious disparity in motivation. Other than those already mentioned by others (which I believe all may play some role), a few other possibilities I can think of are:
- the desire to be dominant in anything, whether business, sports, or whatever (whether one is actually dominant or not) is probably much closer to "normal" since most people like to win and everything in society praises dominance. For me, I very much try to dominate in life, business, sports, and everything else, but when it comes to DD/FLR-related things I am very submissive. Maybe the fact that it is so counterculture, kinky, and the opposite of everything else in life makes it a stronger attraction? I do know that the kinkier it is, the more interesting it is for me...
- "Anonymous" above was talking about how "it is much easier to tell your partner that you want them to take charge and to discipline you in painful, humiliating ways than it would be to tell them you want them to submit to you and that you want to discipline them in painful, humiliating ways." In the same way, I think the whole experience is much more powerful and impactful (pun sort of intended, sort of not) for the bottom than the top. Sure, the one in charge gets a rush of power, but in the in the end it is the bottom that experiences all the pain and humiliation. Since the experience is more intense for the bottom, it is not surprising that the feelings surrounding it would also be.
- For me, a huge part of the attraction is not so much the activities, but also the loss or surrender of control. The fact that you don't know exactly what is going to happen or when it might happen causes a huge amount of suspense. It is entirely possible that I will end today (or any day) with a very sore bottom and a bruised ego, even though I have no reason to expect that. Only she knows when discipline or other humiliation will happen.
- Also, we have talked several times here about other people knowing. One thing that seems to be true in psychology is that if you share something, it loses some of its grip over you. For example, if you have a problem with drugs, by sharing it with others you are already taking an important step in overcoming it. While people don't really share that many details about sex (especially men), the mere fact that it would be 100x easier for my wife to tell her friends, sister, etc. that she dominates me than it would be for me to tell anyone that she dominates me, or even that I want to be dominated. The fact that it is such a hidden secret for me makes the desire all the more intense.
Anyway, just a few thoughts!
-ZM
Hi ZM. Great thoughts. I am very much with you on the attraction of losing or surrendering control. To me, the spanking element of DD really is a means, not an end. The end is giving up control or surrendering to someone else's authority. It is the heart of the paradox of DD for me: I am, to my core, about as anti-authoritarian as anyone you will ever meet, and I find it nearly impossible to subordinate myself to *any* authority. The famous fight scene in Cool Hand Luke -- that's me. I would rather let someone stomp me into the ground than accept their authority over me. Yet, I absolutely do have this morbid attracting to having someone impose their authority on me. Total and complete paradox, and one I'm not sure I'll ever quite understand.
DeleteYou also say: "While people don't really share that many details about sex (especially men), the mere fact that it would be 100x easier for my wife to tell her friends, sister, etc. that she dominates me than it would be for me to tell anyone that she dominates me, or even that I want to be dominated." For us, it really has not been that way. I have told two people -- one a mutual friend and the other an on-line Domme that I struck up a relationship with to the point that we finally revealed our "real" identities. To my knowledge, my wife hasn't told anyone. Though, I do agree with your more general point that the secrecy does add to the mystique and the fascination.