"One regrets the loss even of one’s
worst habits. Perhaps one regrets them the most. They are such an essential
part of one’s personality." – Oscar Wilde
Hello all. I hope you had a great week. I really do love this season. Though, ironically, work often goes crazy
this time of year and, as a result, I've missed a lot of Halloweens. It looked like that was going to happen this
year, but things are looking better.
Although I love this time of
year, neither it nor the break in the workload has fundamentaly changed some of
my behavioral challenges. I did make
some progress getting back on course after a pretty rough time at work, then it
kind of fell apart at the end of the week.
My efforts at self-control and progress on real self-improvement seem to
come in bursts. Unsustainable
bursts. So, as I sat there yesterday
kicking myself for not sticking with the program, I was in the perfect frame of
mind to reflect seriously on this comment/question from Alan:
"This is somewhat off topic but definitely
related to the issue of a woman willing to be “bitchy” as well as experiences
you have discussed. To the point: my wife wants to gradually reduce my drinking
of alcohol ultimately to end it entirely and she is proposing using DD
including lots of spanking and some embarrassment to achieve this. She did this
years ago with smoking and it worked but I was motivated to stop myself then
although the discipline was a crucial part of it happening. My question is can
DD stop drinking entirely? She has some solid reasons for proposing this and I
don’t disagree with her. I just don’t want to completely stop although I am
willing to be spanked for exceeding my limits, I want to keep those limits. I
sound like I am whining and maybe I am but looking for an honest answer from
anyone who might want to comment whether DD can really achieve abstinence. Has
anyone tried it and if so what happened? Thanks"
As I said in my reply to
Alan's comment, I am hardly the guy to answer this one. Like him, I don't want to completely stop,
and I do think that in my case doing so would have some negative career
ramifications. It's just too big a part
of my particular professional culture.
But, beyond that, I do like hanging out and having drinks with people at
work and with friends of ours in the neighborhood. The plain fact is, many
social bonds are formed or fostered over a mug of beer or glass ofwine. As de Sade said, “Conversation, like certain
portions of the anatomy, always runs more smoothly when lubricated.” The plain fact is, I *like* drinking alcohol,
and I really like the social aspect of doing it with friends and co-workers. I
really don't want to give that up, though moderating it would be a great thing.
But, I do wish I could get better about limits
while continuing to imbibe socially. But,
I do wonder sometimes whether it's really possible. I think some people
are pretty binary when it comes to bad habits -- it has to be either on or off
and nothing in between really works.
Alan also related his topic
to our discussion of "bitchiness," I do think that something that
would really help me in sticking to limits or not drinking at all in certain
situations is if she would just tell me not to, and do it strongly, forcefully
and consistently. While I don't always succeed, I do try to obey when she gives
me a direct order. So, maybe to make it work it has to be some kind of stepped
up bossiness, plus DD, plus the embarrassment Alan references, though I'd like
to hear more about that latter one. Another thing she tried on one occasion and
that actually did seem to help was a spanking before we went out to an
event. Sitting on a tender bottom kept
me very aware of how much I was drinking and that too many would result in a
another when we got home.
But, while I may not be the
right person to answer Alan's question regarding this particular habit,
hopefully some of the rest of you can provide some input? But, let's cast a
little wider net with the topic: Have
you used Domestic Discipline successfully to break any deeply ingrained bad
habit? Let's also put a bit more of an
FLR spin on it: Have you done so in a
situation like Alan's in which your disciplinarian spouse wanted to break you
of a habit that you yourself were not so wild about eliminating?
I hope you have a great week.
Aunt Kay instituted a 2-drink maximum for me many years ago. Was I able to conform 100% of the time? No. Not really.
ReplyDeleteBut I did comply the vast majority of the time. So in retrospect I score that as a definite win. Driving under the influence was reduced to zero and the benefits of that are obvious.
Tomy
Tomy,
DeleteThanks for your comment. Limits are doable but eventual abstinence is another issue. As I remarked to Dan it can work with smoking which is a worse habit but not sure about alcohol which has so many social dimensions smoking does not have.
Alan
I quit smoking many years ago, without the help of DD. It was miserably hard, and while I'm not physically addicted to alcohol in the way I was with nicotine, you are right that alcohol has social dimensions that create constant temptation. If anything, smoking has become a social negative. None of my friends these days smoke regularly, and few are even "social" smokers.
DeleteSpankings did work for me, my wife had enough. She would wait until the next morning, especially if I had a hang over, the spanking really hurt, then she would make me sit and give me a drink. I would be squirming and being force to drink. It did not take long, that I soon would think of a drink, then think of sitting.
ReplyDeleteThere's no way I'm letting the illustration of that Witch pass without comment. Let's just say I am now exploring becoming a Wiccan.
ReplyDeleteI've heard of worse reasons for a religious conversion . . .
DeleteBut probably never a better one.
DeleteThis is an odd one for me. I'm no saint, but none of my vices have ever been "problematic". I've never drank to a point of my behavior being an issue.....at least not since I've been with Rosa, and even before her, did my drinking ever really result in a problem. I don't smoke tobacco and what I do smoke is very infrequent and also causes no issues. I'm not overweight. I don't gamble. So, the only 'habits' Rosa has ever tried to break were minor annoyance things like leaving the shower diverter in the up position or cutting across empty parking lots. And since the shower thing was a pretty minor habit, it didn't take long for me to stop doing it and I never do it anymore at all. I do use colorful language, but that is also not an issue for her and it would be a problem for me if she suddenly decided that it was. I find puritanical standards for language to be utterly silly and often hypocritical and think there are more important things for people to focus on rather than be horrified at certain words with particular letters.
ReplyDeleteThe only thing she does still get me on is a habit of leaving weed piles when I work in the garden, but even there I've gotten much better. And every habit she has had an issue with has made sense to me on some level. I think I would be of a different mind if Rosa suddenly wanted to impose arbitrary maximums or whatever on things like drinking. I simply would not agree to it, but neither do I think she would ever want to initiate such a thing....so it's sort of moot.
As I've said many times, there are enough things I do that warrant discipline without having to enact odd 'vice' rules. Our DD is more about my tendency towards being impatient and hyper with people which, while it is part of 'me', is not anything I wish to keep as an admirable or harmless trait.
I admire your restraint and moderation. Perhaps we will test it over a few beers someday! ;-)
DeleteI hear you on colorful language. While I definitely use a fair amount of it myself, I actually did start considering making a pledge to try to reduce certain words, after I heard two idiots talking in the gym a few days ago, and it was just one long, tedious unbroken stream of "fuck this" and "fuck that." They seemed to literally use it in every single sentence, and it really did make them sound like idiots. Made me thing that perhaps I need to watch it a little more closely.
I would love to test resolve with you. Again, I'm not saying I'm a saint, but I think the combination of experience, a natural tolerance I can't take credit for, and the desire to not feel sick the day after, has rendered me pretty responsible....though i hope not boring. ;-)
DeleteAs for overusing profanity? Fuck that! ;-)
Seriously though, profanity is not different than any other form of language. Some people know how to put words together and others don't. I've heard plenty of 'clean' conversations that have possibly been as tedious as the one you overheard. And the overuse of street slang is way more annoying to me than a well-placed "fuck". And let us not forget: 'You follow me?''You know what I mean?'
But for me the worst is clean cursing. I HATE when people say things like "G. D." and think it somehow confused their god into thinking they weren't violating any commandments. Of course, truly novel clean cursing can be very entertaining.
Experience and natural tolerance I have in spades, though somehow reach the opposite of your end state. ;-)
DeleteI don't know whether it quite fits the category of "clean cursing," but I love it when proper Southern women say, "Bless his heart, which is their euphemism for, "fucking moron."
Dan
ReplyDeleteWe began DD when driving and drinking was beginning to be a major issue in our marriage. I never thought Peter needed to stop but he did need to learn how to manage time. If he intends to have cocktails with a
client plan on using Uber. It has worked. Then we began working on other bad habits such as leaving our boys
waiting to be picked up by Peter after school and the boys were brought home by a teacher three hours later.
One last thing is when Peter gets that itch to be controlled he has learned to ask for it.I am always there to help him erase that craving!
Anna
Thanks, Anna. Spanking and the rise of Uber as an option seems like a great combination for reducing drunk driving!
Deletedan
Deletedo you report when you slip when out on the road? Peter does!
Anna
This is why we do DD the way we do it. While I won't discount it can have a sexual component, 99 percent of ours is attitude or behavior modification.
ReplyDeleteOne key factor is that so far everything but one issue I 100% agree the mood, addictions, habits, etc. are things I need to change. She just provides the "incentive" to progress a little quicker. We have 3 basic scenarios, an attitude adjustment when my temper or anxiety flares, punishment for not following a rule, and pre-emptive not quite a punishment spanking.
Before every trip I get spanked since most of my infractions take place when I am on the road. This is both a warning and a reset button. Then if I mess up I get a full punishment when I get home.
For us it works, as one habit diminishes we add another. This has really helped in areas where a psycological addiction was probably in play by adding a incentive to bail from the preoccupation and acting out phases. But we have seen huge results so we continue.
Anyway this is long enough.
It's interesting you bring up the "preemptive" spankings before travel. I was thinking about that possibility just a few days ago, after I had gone several days with very good behavior, then as soon as I had to travel for business, my resolve fell apart. I was considering whether a preventative spanking in advance might possibly help.
DeleteIt works for us. We have seen a reduction in issues. We also set some other rules for travel also. We realized when I get sleep deprived or stay out late things go down hill. So I have to be in bed by 10, unless I contact her before hand because I have something for business. However, if I do stay up (with a cliet or somthing else) we go to zero tolerance and I will get additional punishments immediately while traveling. Gives me incentive to do happy hour and not a night cap with clients.
DeleteSome other punishments when I travel my wife is fond of that bridge till I get home are: one minute under full cold of the shower, early morning timeouts or corner time, no alcohol rest of the trip (if alcohol contributed to the infraction), small diet restrictions (no meats, deserts, bread, etc.) This allows some immediate consequences to reflect on with a good spanking in the future.
Preventive spanking, while not a regular feature, were exceptionally effective in my case.
DeleteSR: Those are good ideas. Travel is a real problem for me. I'll get on a roll at home -- staying within boundaries, behaving myself, getting healthy, etc. Then, one trip just blows it. I just can't seem to exercise self-discipline when living out of planes and hotels. And, while client stuff is part of the problem, that's kind of an excuse, since I seem to find may way to the hotel bar quite often regardless of client activities.
DeleteDan
DeleteAnd when you " slip" I am hoping that you report your slippage to the Mrs. and when doing so
stand before her with paddle or belt in hand. That is what I expect from Peter.
I do try to report, though I am less than perfect at it. And, when I do report, I tend not bring along the paddle or belt. But, I think that is part of what we need to explore -- making disciplinary spankings something that is less of a formal event and something she takes care of more "on the spot." While it's a little paradoxical, that probably does mean me taking on more responsibility for initiating it there and then.
DeleteSo the most severe infraction for us is violation of our agreement. If I don't report in a timely manner I not only get punished for the infraction but also undermining our agrement. Part of our agreement is I must self report all infractions, no holding any back. Borderline I still report and we decide. No exceptions.
DeleteOn the reporting though it is far from fantasy world. I don't report with an implement to give her (usually it is by text) and it is not like I walk in the door with her waiting. Usually after a trip she needs a half day to day to decompress from watching the kids by herself and relax some. Usually is it the next day we "clean the slate" when she is ready.
Do the violations of your agreement constitute a separate offense that gets punished separately? Helen made the point a few topics back that she always makes sure separate infractions get separate and distinct punishments, which makes a lot of sense to me. There are times when I know I am already in trouble, and I would be lying if I said it didn't cross my mind that since I am going to get punished anyway, why not go ahead and give into temptation on additional bad conduct?
DeleteSo you have two question here really. One are separate offenses punished separately and two if I know I am in trouble why not go all in?
DeleteAlot of what Helen describes is similar in our marriage except Helen is more into it than my spouse.
Yes separate infractions get separate punishments. Usually it means one will be a more severe non-spanking punishment as it is hard to make a severe spanking more severe and not cause some lasting issue.
The second is a matter of degrees, however that specific attitude (I am already in trouble...) is in of itself punishable with us.
Our process and the attitude toward it must be number one priority or else this is a game and not real. Our DD process is don't at my request. If I undermine it then we might as well pack up and call it quits.
Not saying I am perfect at this but she did make it clear (per a previous post), that to make sure I stay to the agreement she will make sure I understand. Anything less we stop.
I would characterize it more as one question, and an observation. The question being, are separate offenses punished separately, particularly where one is about the relationship itself. The observation being the downside of lumping all offenses together and addressing them with a single punishment or within a single punishment session.
DeleteHi Dan
DeleteResponding mainly to the "self reporting" theme above: I have found it very difficult to self report which is something she wants but I rarely do. My former girlfriend loved self reporting and especially hearing me ask for a spanking. With her I think I could self report easier because we didn't live together and so immediate punishment was often not possible. I admit however I am fascinated and a little titillated by Anna's suggestion of self reporting with a paddle in hand ( or hairbrush) and her expecting me to do that. That certainly leaves no ambiguity about who is in charge and what is going to happen.
Alan
Hi Alan,
DeleteI have done that only once, and it was recently. It really involved me breaking a personal goal, not really a rule or something that had an impact on her. In that circumstance, it seemed to make sense to both self-report and to bring the tool with me, in order to make it immediate for me and convenient for her.
Preemptive spankings or "preventatives" as my wife has long called them work for us if it is administered within a few hours of the event, party or family gathering or before long auto travel with her. I have not experienced them before going on a long business trip or any other occasion where the targeted behavior and the spanking were more than a few hours apart. For us then it has definitely been a short term strategy that failed only once to do the job. We started these many years ago around the winter holidays where my behavior had been consistently bad especially at large family events. In the beginning I remember thinking they were unfair but came to realize they almost completely eliminated behavior issues and probably saved me from more severe punishment later. The only downside to me is that when the preventative fails my wife will follow up with a second spanking back home.Avoiding that second spanking may be why preventatives work so well.
ReplyDeleteAlan
Hi Alan. You said, "In the beginning I remember thinking they were unfair but came to realize they almost completely eliminated behavior issues and probably saved me from more severe punishment later." I also used to think they were unfair, or that they really weren't disciplinary and were just an excuse for spankos to get spanked more often. I don't have a lot of experience with this, as my wife has only done it once. But, that time it DID work in keeping me in-line at a party, and I was very conscious of the fact that I was sitting on a sore bottom and that it might get a lot more sore if I acted up. So, based on that very limited data set, I do have some reason to believe that it could help modify behavior in a positive way.
DeleteBTW, sorry there has not been much response so far to you actual question, i.e. whether people have used DD successfully to stop drinking entirely.
"BTW, sorry there has not been much response so far to you actual question, i.e. whether people have used DD successfully to stop drinking entirely."
DeleteIt could be some have tried but failed or could be there is not much experience using DD for drinking. The latter would surprise me greatly but I am surprised that way at least daily
Alan
It could also be that some have tried to use it to limit, but not stop, drinking. That has been the focus of our (not particularly successful) efforts.
DeleteFor drinking we have not tried. Not on the list of things to change. We did do it for ponography for me and subsequent mastrubation. I don't want to start a long debate but we agreed those were morally wrong and I needed to stop. It was hard and took lots of spanking but I have for the most part stopped and it was a direct result of DD. I think it does somthing more than dicipline, the chemical component of a long time habit or addiction causes you to long or yearn for somthing in the brain for a variety of reasons. Cutting off a chemical (dopamine, alchohol, etc) causes issues. A spanking replaces some off that with other chemicals...that is why I refer to a "reset" spanking in the premptive. There have been limited studies on this. But the key is you have to want to, if you don't want to stop or agree to...then I don't think you will. Not sure any level of sane spanking will force it. Just my two cents.
DeleteI agree, for the most part, that change requires you to want it. Though, as we've discussed on here before, I think that it's a complicated mix of factors and it is possible for some change to be imposed from the outside. The success of that external imposition of control depends on: (1) how ingrained is the habit and, as you call out, does it involve a real "addiction" that has become chemically or structurally hardwired; (2) what are the odds of getting caught cheating; and (3) how severe are the consequences.
DeleteA few years ago, I had a bad run of luck with speeding tickets. At first, it didn't lead to much change in my driving habits. But, that changed (for a while), after the tickets added up and I got closer to a suspended license because (a) the string of tickets made me readjust my assessment of how likely I was to get caught; and (b) the looming penalty was severe enough to get my attention.
Hi Dan,
ReplyDeleteI haven't really had much to say on this week's topic. This is not so much that I am so good, but more that she is really easy to get along with. Even without DD, we probably wouldn't have many disagreements.
As far as deeply ingrained habits, we haven't really addressed any except procrastination (which is probably at the core of all my bad habits). We started to address it during check-ins, but then summer happened and we still haven't gotten it going again.i guess we just haven't gotten around to it!
As far as little habits, she threatened a long time over hand washing, but I got marginally better and she largely gave up.
It would (or will) be interesting if she ever decided to change something that I wasn't totally on board with. I guess it would all get pretty real pretty fast.
-ZM
That last point is interesting, isn't it? It's obviously what Alan is wrestling with, and to some extent I do as well though mine has never ordered complete cessation for more than a week or so. This week's topic began with a quote from Oscar Wilde that I think is pretty appropriate. He refers to our "worst" habits, though I might say something more like "most deeply ingrained." Those really are part of who we are. That is what makes them so hard to root out. And, I do think that wives should tread carefully before demanding that he give one of those up, because she really would be asking him to change part of who he is. Now, maybe doing so is worth it if the habit is having a major negative impact on him, her or others. But, short of that . . .
DeleteChanging bad habits that have a negative effect on one's life and their family is an essential part of growing as a human being and as a partner in a relationship and a family.
ReplyDeleteI believe that attempting that requires serious commitment and that the burden of providing accountability should not be solely on the wife. The domestic discipline should be an integral part of the program (although generally still private),
Big changes in habits can be helped by professionals such as therapists, coaches, religious support, self-help groups etc. The fundamental commitment has to come from within and the ultimate source of the motivation has to be the sincere desire to make the change.