Saturday, October 13, 2018

The Club - Meeting 269 - Limiting Beliefs


"One is not born a woman, one becomes one." - Simone de Beauvoir, The Second Sex, 1949

Hi all.  I hope you had a great week.  Mine was both exhausting and relieving at the same time.  The exhaustion came from WAY too much business travel combined with WAY too many business meetings and WAY too much business socializing.  All while trying to get some real work crammed in here and there. The relief came from the fact that the overwhelming work project that was going to keep me under water for five or six weeks came to a screeching halt.  Knowing myself as well as I do, the temporary feeling of freedom will almost certainly be replaced soon by frustration and anxiety about not having enough to do.  That's just the way I'm wired.

But, it is good to have a weekend mostly off, especially at this time of year.  I really do love the Fall.  Walking the dogs this morning was wonderful.  The briskness of the air, the gorgeous colors . . . it really is my favorite time of year, though Christmas season is a close second and probably comes in behind only because I don't like the cold all that much. 


Also, this month brings Halloween, which is hands down the most interesting of our U.S. holidays.  No others combine mischievousness with a touch of kink. Imagination also plays a role, with certain costumes and displays appearing innocent if you're, well, innocent, but perhaps just a tad kinky if that's your thing.  For example, is this guy engaging in some innocent mooning, or perhaps bending over for his spanking:


Because of my travel, our DD and FLR activities got put on hold. But, my wife's interest seems to be stirring again.  We talked last week about why the "bottom" partner seems always to be more into than the Top. But, lately, if anything my wife brings it up more than I do.  Which is good.  Even though we have been doing this for a dozen or more years, it really is only in the last year or so that she seems to have gone mentally from just accommodating my need and seeing some collateral benefits to her from using DD to end arguments and express her dissatisfaction, to really starting to enjoy the power exchange and being more openly dominant.  In other words, the real change has been in her attitude.  I think deep down inside, the Domme was always in there, but it was so buried in layers of cultural and social and familial and personal inhibitors, it stayed dormant.

So, what are the things that hold your disciplinarian back from being all they can be?  I'll kick it off with a few of the things my wife probably had to overcome, some of which are still a work in progress:
  • Following is more acceptable than leading:  I think for both men and women, following is more socially acceptable than leading.  We dress the latter up with pleasant labels, like being a "team player" or a "good soldier."  And, while we respect people with strong leadership skills, those who exercise them can quickly come under criticism for being "uppity," presumptuous, or "too big for their britches."
  • Social pressure to be nice and to put others' needs ahead of our own:  There is a constant pressure in our society to be nice.  Polite.  Self-effacing. Those who put their own interests first are often seen as selfish or "not nice."  For the dominant party in a DD relationship, it can be hard to give yourself permission to express your own desires and preferences, let alone to express them as a command.
  • Fear of hurting the other party:  This has both physical and emotional dimensions.  Many new Disciplinary Wives fear literally hurting him via a "too hard" spanking.  They fear hurting him emotionally via a "too strict" demeanor.  Ironically, most of the husbands want the physical discipline to be harder or longer, the non-physical discipline to be more humbling and unyielding, and the dominant partner's exercise of authority to be far more strict, more authoritarian and to be that way more consistently.
  • Fear of being powerful:  I think some Dominant Wives worry deep down inside about what will happen if they really give in to what Nietzsche called the Will to Power.  We are all so conditioned to deplore dictators, authoritarians, sadists--basically anyone who shows too much comfort with exercising power over others--that budding Disciplinary Wives and Dommes fear the stigma of being seen to revel in exercising power over another human being and probably have some socialized aversion to being that kind of person.
My wife's newfound enthusiasm for being dominant seems to have two aspects.  First, she is finally really accepting that I want this.  That while it may be hard for me to accept in the moment, part of my wants and needs boundaries and rules.  And wants them to be imposed strictly and consistently.  Second, she is finally getting comfortable admitting that she enjoys bossing me around, setting the rules, and being served.  Another aspect that we are both getting more comfortable with--but which I will save for a future post once I can come up with a new angle to hit it from--is that there is a relatively strong "maternal" energy at play for both of us, which in the past there was a lot of reticence about acknowledging let alone exploring.

So, what attitudes are holding back your disciplinarian or have held them back in the past.  Are those attitudes something they have overcome?  If so, any thoughts on how that came about?

Have a great week.

32 comments:

  1. Hi Dan,
    Great topic as always! This one should inspire good conversation between my wife and me. I look forward to hearing her perspective on this, as well as the perspectives of other readers.
    -ZM

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  2. At first, my wife was held back by a big one - the 'Respect' worry. That she would lose respect for me if she came to see me as a submissive little boy.

    In a way, I was drawn to the risk - I read somewhere (maybe here) "once you go over her lap, she'll never see you the same way..." That thought was actually a turn on to me.

    In "Tips", Dan, you call many of us "conflicted but curious (and not a little courageous) husbands". We see DD as a way to improve ourselves and our marriages, but that's hardly the universal opinion, where the masochist is pitied, or worse.

    Fortunately, my wife gave it a try - in a limited way at first, but she quickly became more comfortable. Eventually I asked her if she'd lost any respect. "Oh, I got over that," she said. And we're closer than ever.
    CrimsonKing

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    1. Hi CK. As far as I know, my wife did not experience that one. Though, I'm sure it was part of my anxiety the night I told her about discovering DD. I really had no idea what her reaction might be, but losing respect certainly didn't seem an unlikely prospect.

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  3. Dan

    Anna here! What I have learned from your blog, especially these past few weeks is just how many paths there are to DD. I have come to see that there is no one path. What we must have is tolerance for the paths that any couple takes.
    For us the ritual that I have outlined a few times works for us. Arriving at the place that both of us are satisfied
    with what is happening and both Peter and I can walk away with our ego intact. When we started I feared being seen as a nasty bitch. He feared my losing respect for the man that I said I DO to so many years ago.
    It took for us a lot of talking, reading and being as brutally honest as we could be. In my eyes Peter being so open made me respect him more.
    One thing we talked through is that if he craved the discipline that the would never just act out to have it.
    In exchange I would not use discipline to get even with any slight i might feel. I can say now I appreciate him for not feeling he has to always be superman. He once said to me "when I lose my cape i love that you now put it up and guide us to the safe place.
    Anna

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    1. Hi Anna. Definitely agree -- there are lots of paths. You're absolutely right that it takes a ton of talking, reading and being brutally honest. Which is why comments like the first one above always draw a really negative reaction from me, with their insinuation that the couple will come to a great relationship by her doing whatever she wants and him complying with it. That may be consistent with some forms of FLR, but it's pretty damn unlikely to lead to anything like a mutually acceptable, let alone mutually beneficial, DD arrangement.

      I am sure that fear of being seen as a "nasty bitch" is way up there on the list of common fears that hold women back from really taking the reins. You also mention the fact that he might "act out" to get discipline, and I'm sure that's a common fear as well. Though that one can probably be cured in the vast majority of men by making the discipline (spanking or non-spanking) hard enough that it truly does become something he wants to avoid.

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  4. I suppose that recently, for one reason or another......whether physical or mental.....I am probably the biggest obstacle holding Rosa back. But things are loosening up a bit so maybe we will be back into it more soon. We did do a short spanking a few days ago (the first since my surgery) and had a productive discussion to go along with it. There is supposed to be more to follow, but still waiting.

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    1. Sorry you're still in a lull. Surgery can certainly set things back both physically and mentally

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  5. Dan, Sylvia here. While Bart and I have been using a form of DD far longer than we have been aware of a name for our practices or that there was a community of people who share their experiences , we continue to followxyour blog. While we have poked at the edges of letting a few others knowing about our arrangement we are too private to risk sharing any details and while my sisters have teased Bart around some comments about his getting spanked years ago they don’t know the depth of the importance of my disciplining Bart has on our long relationship . There have been points where I felt like the” bitch” as when we were younger I found many more reasons to take his pants down and blister his behind.. cumulatively many discussions and many spankings later we read your postings and enjoy our perspective hoping others arrive where we are, happy and still applying the strap when needed

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    1. Hi Sylvia. I'm glad you are still following -- and still spanking.

      This phenomenon of women feeling like "bitches" when they take control is, I guess, understandable. Though, it really is ironic because so many of the men really, really want just that kind of sternness and consistency. It's interesting because it plainly is such a big issue for the wives to overcome, yet the husbands are already there with them, hoping they'll embrace their inner leader, disciplinarian or . . . bitch. I don't really mean the last one literally, because the other irony is that the most of the husbands want the sternness and strictness, but they don't see it as bitchiness but, rather, a form of loving and supportive control.

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  6. One thing I have noticed is that SOMETIMES the attachment can get in the way,as in: I love my partner, I don't want to hurt (him/her)

    But there's also the other side:

    I love my partner, so I know that a hard spanking/paddling/caning is just what s/he needs.

    I tend towards the latter, and the title of "Bitch" is only more encouraging for me.

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    1. Attachment is a great way to describe it. I'm kind of intrigued with the "maternal" side of DD right now, and it's kind of like 1950s housewives blistering their son's ass for a bad report card. The attachment was there, but there was a sense of duty that this was in the recipient's long-term interest.

      You are definitely the first who has labeled the title Bitch as something to aspire to!

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  7. While I say "to each their own", the pejorative term Bitch would never find it's way into my descriptions or feelings toward Aunt Kay, regardless of strictness I may have been dealing with. And I'll explain why that is.

    It requires a great deal of energy and commitment for a DWC wife to bring the lifestyle into a living reality. They do that out of love and generosity. Most, not all, but most, have to dig deep to first understand it and then embrace something very unexpected at first. It is nothing but love.

    That's just my 2 cents.

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    1. I agree, Tomy, and my response to Merry was perhaps too flippant. The message I would like to get across is that being strict, setting high standards, and imposing consequences is not being "bitchy." But, in the end, "bitch" is just a word, though it seems to be a word that scares a lot of women away from taking control. I've had this discussion with younger execs at work. I think some women believe, mistakenly, that a male who sets high standards and imposes consequences is admired or at least forgiven. Not really. At the time they are chastising an under-performer or imposing consequences, the person on the receiving end is almost certainly muttering pejoratives like "asshole!" under their breath. And, the male manager knows it. The difference is, that knowledge doesn't seem to prevent men from taking leadership roles, while some women won't take charge because of that worry about someone thinking of them as a bitch. So, the message I'd like to get through to female leaders is, whether in a family or a business and whether done out of love or out of professional obligation, you probably aren't going to change whether someone (temporarily, most likely) thinks of you as a bitch at the moment you are in disciplinary mode, but you can change the way you react to it. But, it also should be comforting that in most DD relationships, the husband is more like Tomy. He appreciates the energy and commitment and, while it's not pleasant for him while being chastised or punished, he *wants* her in this role and *needs* her to be stern and tough.

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    2. Tomy

      I think you put into words what many of men like me, who require a firm hand. Anna at times makes me angry but I would never call her Bitch. We worked very hard to reach the point that she can love and respect me, even over her knee. When a discipline session is over she always says to me, often as she applies a lotion to my very sore bottom,
      " I hope this is the last time I have to resort to discipline. But be clear if I find you
      have not learned your lesson you will again yourself perhaps ever more sore than
      you are right now."
      To kneel and feel her hug me or to lie on the bed and snuggle up to her, I feel so grateful
      Even if I have been aroused by our session there is a joy in knowing it will not happen
      that night.At least not for me.
      Peter

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  8. For us my wife has asked me more than once that "I am not mad at her" or don't associate being punished with "she" is doing this to me. While she will do it she wants to make sure I don't start to resent her. Only once ever did I lose my cool on her and slipped down this path. A couple days later I wrote an apology letter, we sat down and discussed it...then she made sure I did not sit down the rest of the evening. She made it clear she can spank when she has a point to make. Since then all is good.

    She used to be concerned with physically harming me more, now that she has seen how it does not make lasting damage and has more experience she has let that go.

    What helped most is my behavior changed which helped her to see the role was good for us. She still has reservations since she is a perfectionist and wants everything to go well for me and do it "right". I sometimes have to just let her know to ease up on herself and I don't know what a perfect spanking is so stop worrying about it. It holds her back and causes anxiety which is completely not needed. But she will get there.

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    1. Really great thoughts on this. I don't know whether my wife went through a "are you mad at me?" stage, but she has said she has wondered if I would "take it back" if she really gets committed to it. I think no matter how much we try to reassure them on that score, at some point there is a leap of faith involved and they have to just go for it.

      Reservations around wanting to "do it right," also make total sense to me. Lots of things in life are like that. We think there must be some instruction manual, and there's just not. So, again, we just have to kind of plunge in.

      Sounds like the two of you are doing great on that. Thanks for participating. Unlike my friend KD, I don't insist that commenters use a name -- made up or otherwise. But, you've been contributing a lot recently, and your comments are well thought out and helpful. It would be great if you would give us a name to call you.

      Dan

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    2. For professional reasons my real name is not going to happen. On all spanking sites I comment or blog I am somethingrandom or Somthingrandom. However, if you want me to make something up I can choose something random. ;)

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  9. To the commenter I deleted -- sorry -- we're not doing this, "Let me see how I can work the word 'coitus' into the conversation" crap again. And, since this is a blog about DD and *Wife* Led Marriage, you need to find another venue for your fascination with "baring your buttocks" while maintaining a "Male Led Marriage." This is not the right blog for you.

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  10. Lol. Grumpy old so-and-so.

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  11. Can I be a "Grumpy old so-and-so" too? I like that. :)


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  12. Hi Dan,
    As happens ever so frequently, the discussion here on the forum has led to good discussion between my wife and I.

    More than anything, the primary roadblock or obstacle to DD has been her fear of hurting me. I would expect this is pretty normal for most wives, or tops in general. She has made great progress on this, but still struggles with excessive bruises and crying (what loving wife wouldn't)?

    In fact, I am asking her to do something that is beyond difficult, because if all goes as it should, at the actual time of punishment I absolutely do not want the punishment at all and certainly do not want the punishment to continue. But outside the moment, we both agree that longer and harder - even well past the point of tears - is what is needed, so I need to be taken well past the point I am okay with at the time. To do this well, she needs to balance her awareness of what we both really want overall (not just what I am saying I want or don't want at the time) and be very aware of my actual state during the punishment; if I am really in distress she would stop immediately of course, but if she can see I am ok, then even if I were to cry uncontrollably, she should continue until she deems the punishment is over.

    In every way she has taken to every aspect of DD much better than I could have hoped or dreamed for. Even more so, she is also turned on by it and also sees it as being truly beneficial to help me become the man and husband that I want to be. I think any obstacles have mostly been just due to lack of confidence and lack of experience, both of which she is gaining with time.

    With regard to humiliations, she is a bit more cautious, even though as I look back we have already done a ton of different things. Many of my problems (like my never-ending bouts of bad attitude) are rooted in excessive ego, and humiliation is incredibly effective at amplifying any punishment and breaking through the walls of excessive pride and ego. However, she is careful with humiliation because she only wants to temporarily reduce my ego without in any way demeaning me or diminishing my self-worth. In other words, her caution is a result of her wisdom.

    As far as not wanting to be “bitchy,” she actually WANTS to be during these times, and is trying to become more so! Again, this is an “in the moment” type of thing, because it doesn't change who she is and how I see her the rest of the time. In fact, she is the polar opposite of bitchy and is kind, understanding, logical, and a joy to share life with.

    -ZM

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    1. Hi ZM. I really don't know to what extent fear of hurting me holds my wife back. My first reaction was that it does not, but thinking it through, it's not quite true. She will sometimes end a spanking "early," i.e. sooner than she thinks I really deserve, if my bottom is looking too battered. So, I guess that qualifies as fear of hurting me. Fear of continuing after I start to cry has not been an issue for us, as I still haven't cried. It does make sense to me to be more cautious about humiliation or "humbling," though like you, many of my problems are rooted in ego, so bringing me down a bit is definitely necessary and helpful. That's great that she is comfortable with "bitchiness" when it comes to the job at hand.

      FYI, there was something I wanted to raise with you off-line, if you are willing. My email address is in my profile.

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    2. Hi Dan,
      Sure! I will send you an email in the next few days. :)

      -ZM

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  13. Hi Dan
    This is somewhat off topic but definitely related to the issue of a woman willing to be “bitchy” as well as experiences you have discussed. To the point: my wife wants to gradually reduce my drinking of alcohol ultimately to end it entirely and she is proposing using DD including lots of spanking and some embarrassment to achieve this. She did this years ago with smoking and it worked but I was motivated to stop myself then although the discipline was a crucial part of it happening. My question is can DD stop drinking entirely. She has some solid reasons for proposing this and I don’t disagree with her. I just don’t want to completely stop although I am willing to be spanked for exceeding my limits, I want to keep those limits. I sound like I am whining and maybe I am but looking for an honest answer from anyone who might want to comment whether DD can really achieve abstinence. Has anyone tried it and if so what happened? Thanks
    Alan

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    1. Hi Alan,

      Well, as everyone knows from my all-too-frequent postings about consuming too much, I am probably the last guy to ask about how to stop that particular vice. Honestly, I have never really tried, or even wanted to try, to completely stop. The plain fact is, I *like* drinking alcohol, and I really like the social aspect of doing it with friends and co-workers. I really don't want to give that up. But, I do wish I could get better about limits. But, that may not really be possible. I think some people are pretty binary when it comes to bad habits -- they are even on or off and nothing in between really works. Of course, I personally support you in whatever decision you make on this. Since we will be switching topics tomorrow, I'm happy to post this as part of a new topic.

      As it related to bitchiness, I do think that something that would really help me in sticking to limits or not drinking at all in certain situations is if she would just tell me not to, and do it strongly, forcefully and consistently. While I don't always succeed, I do try to obey when she gives me a direct order. So, maybe to make it work it has to be some kind of stepped up bossiness, plus DD, plus the embarrassment you reference?

      On a separate topic, I don't know whether your wife allows you to make contact with anyone from this electronic DD world but, if so and if you are so inclined, would you send me an email? There was something I wanted to discuss with you off-line. Totally understand if you can't or are not interested.


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    2. Dan,

      Thanks. I will follow up
      Alan

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  14. Aunt Kay instituted a 2-drink maximum for me many years ago. Was I able to conform 100% of the time? No. Not really.

    But I did comply the vast majority of the time. So in retrospect I score that as a definite win. Driving under the influence was reduced to zero and the benefits of that are obvious.

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    1. My wife has done that from time to time, and I always feel like 2 is just too low for me to really comply with on a regular basis, because it's rare that whoever I am drinking with stops at 2. Three, on the other hand, seems reasonable.

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    2. Tomy,
      Thanks for your comment. Limits are doable but eventual abstinence is another issue. As I remarked to Dan it can work with smoking which is a worse habit but not sure about alcohol which has so many social dimensions smoking does not have.
      Alan

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    3. Guys, I'm going to move these comments to the new topic.

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