Saturday, September 30, 2017

The Forum -- Vol. 223 -- Caring About What She Cares About (and other stuff)

“You will not be punished for your anger; you will be punished by your anger.” - Gautama Buddha

Hi all. Welcome back to The Forum.  Our weekly gathering of men and women who are in, or would like to be in, Domestic Discipline or Female Led Relationships.  I hope you all had a good week. Mine was wearing.  While my interest in DD seems to be making a bit of a comeback, my time for it or practical ability to engage in it hasn't.  It was truly just an exhausting week, culminating in me directing a mini-tirade at someone at work.  It is debatable whether the person did or did not have it coming, and I wasn't totally over the line vicious, but I definitely let my temper get the better of me.  I think everyone understood that I was just exhausted and frustrated, but still . . . .    I know Peter had a somewhat similar problem recently involving an enforced apology to someone he had been rude to, and I welcome him to share more about that if he desires.  In this case, my wife won't have to require the apology, let alone paddle or strap one out of me.  The person is a friend, I feel bad about it, and our relationship is larger than this one incident.  Hence, the above quote.  So, I will apologize and probably buy him a bottle of good booze.

I'm also sorry I didn't get to all the comments this week.  As discussed, the week got really crazy at the end, I just couldn't keep up with everything, and I have made a more or less conscious decision that when I have 20 things to get to on my to-do list but time for only 19, anything related to blogging is going to be a very strong candidate to fall off the list.  But, I did feel like there was some good commenting going on, some of it subtly intertwined.  There was some discussion both on the blog and in some side conversations about whether the whole topic from last week was an exercise in "topping from the bottom."  As I've said, it's a concept I just don't like, which I think has been artificially imported from BDSM world and that is dangerous and downright destructive in many DD relationships where the emphasis should be on frequent and open communication.  Now, I'm not saying it has no application to DD, and I can think of at least one example that has come up here with someone showing a repeated pattern of insisting on DD, telling his wife how it should be done, then undermining her repeatedly when she actually did it.  That IS a problem.  On balance, however, the concept just seems to have more potential for harm than good in most relationships.  But, as I said to a good friend on the blog who feels differently, we can sometimes agree to disagree.

One comment did bring up an interestingly related issue, however.  ZM observed: "I had to be especially careful at first because all this was very new to her, while I had been thinking about it and reading about it for much of my life. Consequently, it was a fine line between giving her pointers so she would learn how to safely and effectively discipline me, but at the same time not making her feel disempowered or micromanaged."  It does seem to be the case that men are just more mentally into DD than their partners, and I do think that once we decide we want this, it seems to become more pervasive for us than for them.  Though, based on some time I've spent hanging out on JGirl's A Shrew Tamed blog, I'm starting to wonder whether it is really a male/female thing, rather than a "bottom" and "top" kind of thing, where for whatever reason the person who wants discipline has a compelling need for it, while the "top" or disciplinarian may see a value in it but doesn't have a "need" for it, at least not in the same way or to the same degree.  If you don't believe that is the dynamic, take a look at these stark results from a recent poll, where I asked (in a follow-up to a poll from a couple of years ago), who initiated the DD relationship, the disciplinary giver or the receiver:

The disciplined spouse (the spankee) initiated the DD aspect of our relationship:        86%
The disciplinary spouse (the spanker) initiated the DD aspect of the relationship
:       13%

Pretty stark difference, right?  Although these polls always have a very limited set of respondents, those results are pretty hard to quibble with, and I think they reflect most of the experiences related here and in other DD-related discussion groups.  It is almost always--not 100% of the time but almost--the disciplined party who initiates, which is even more fascinating when you think about two other aspects of these relationships.  First, and somewhat obviously, getting spanked by someone who is motivated to do it, knows what she is doing, and is using the right tool -- HURTS!  Yet, it is the disciplined party who wants it.  Second, if you read DD-oriented spanking stories, the most common fantasy scenario seems to be the wife getting fed up with bad behavior and imposing the DD relationship on a reluctant husband.  I'm not sure whether I've come across another area in which the gap between the fantasy and the reality is quite so stark.  And, all this plays into the whole "topping from the bottom" thing, because it's clear the "bottoms" are mentally into the whole thing, want it to work well, and think about it so much that they probably do put way more time and energy than their "tops" in figuring out things that might make it work better.

As for this week's topic, it also comes from one of the commenters.  The Glenmore (not sure how he likes to be addressed) observed: "I find women like to be empowered, or empower themselves, in areas where they feel strongly about and wish to be in charge of."  Pretty commonsensical, right?  The Disciplinarian in these relationships is more likely to punish for things that she sees as a problem, whether he does or not.  Conversely, she is less likely to punish him for things she doesn't care about, even if he sees the behavior as a problem and wants help correcting it.

In your relationship, does it actually work that way?  I find all sorts of things in life would seem to work in one way but actually don't.  For us, it's kind of yes, kind of no.  For a long time, she tended to spank for, and only for, those things that we had mutually agreed would be spankable.  But, even then she definitely was more prone to spank for some of those things than for others.  More recently, I think she is starting to get more comfortable spanking for things that do really piss her off, like displays of disrespect or temper, but mainly to the extent they are directed at her.  While I see things like this week's temper tantrum at work as a problem, she agrees but is much less prone to do anything about it than had I directed a similar tantrum directly at her.

Conversely, the #1 thing I get spanked for is over-indulging on alcohol, usually in the work setting.  I do agree that it is a problem, and I'm probably the one who really initiated being spanked for it, but I also know that my heart often is not in it.  I "think" it is a punishable offense, but I don't "feel" it. Part of me just enjoys the social aspect too much to really ever give it up, and I also just see it as part of the culture I work in, and to some extent that should be OK.  But, she does see it as a problem, and she feels it does impact her, so as long as we are in a DD relationship, I have no doubt I will get spanked for it.  We also have set up rules for things like work-related behaviors and personal goals, but those seldom do get punished, again I think because they don't have a very immediate impact on her.

How does it work for you?  Are there areas that you think you should be punished for, or punished for more severely, and she just isn't into it?  Or, are there things she sees as big problems and deals with severely, but you really don't agree that they are problems or need fixing?

Have a great week.

29 comments:

  1. Thanks for continuing to explore the topic of empowerment Dan (Glen or Glenmore is fine).
    One interesting discovery for me was that some of my faults I wanted her to correct me on were actually dis-empowering her and making her even less confident to administer punishment.
    For example ,one of my worst faults was interrupting her when she was speaking ,trying to control the conversation ,criticizing and putting down her opinions, blaming her for things I did and on top of these, general disrespect.
    I did not realize how much these traits upset her until we had a discussion on it after a particularly poor episode.
    She did agree to administer a paddling but not with the conviction I expected or deserved.

    After that I made a concious effort to be aware of these traits and either stopped myself when I realized it or apologizing afterwards.
    Seeing I was making an effort to correct my own behaviour , my wife became more confident and bold to point out my disrespect also.If I interrupted her she would put a finger up and firmly tell me " I'm speaking if you don't mind" or words to that effect.
    She even started doing this when we had company.
    I recall one time when we had friends over and I cut her off and she scolded "Didn't we talk about this?"
    After I shut up ,she added , "I guess we need to talk about it some more?"
    Clearly her confidence had grown by this point that she felt empowered enough to do something , and after our guests left the paddle came out.She really told me off while waving it at me and all I could do was stand quietly for a change and listen.
    This time she did not hold back and delivered a vigorous paddling that really hurt.
    Interestingly after that , such incidents of disrespect to her became much less frequent.
    Even though her empowerment increased , paddling decreased as I was more aware of she would correct me before I started to interrupt.
    Even though I would have liked more paddling she considered these minor violations not requiring a spanking and she was quite proud of how she could stop my behaviour with a look , a gesture or a warning.
    Other violations like not doing a task , swearing or other personal faults she tends to just let ride unless , as you pointed out, they are personally directed at her.
    For instance if she asked me to do something and I ignored her or was rude about her request a date with the paddle would be likely.
    I find it interesting that when our behaviour improves paddlings decrease despite her becoming more empowered.

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    1. Thanks, Glen. Your last sentence makes perfect sense to me. If she is dealing with things that are a problem for her, it seems natural that as our behavior improves the number of spankings should drop.

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  2. Interesting, The Glenmore. Some of what you relate is present in our relationship and some not.

    As to the general question of how it works for us. When we began, we each made lists of how we felt the DD relationship should work for us. Included in those lists was a list of spankable infractions. We compared lists, pared them down and drafted one we live by. Some infractions on the list, I have never been punished for, even though I felt I should have been. There are others on the list I get punished for over and over. That developed into our 3 levels of punishment for each offense. As I have stated before, she has the power to change, add or subtract from the listed punishment as she feel fit. The offenses she punishes for, I would imagine, are the ones SHE feels are most important or cause her to desire to administer discipline. Some of those I do not feel are important at all while others I totally agree with and feel I should be punished. For repeated offenses, the punishment level increases, again by her decision. She has yet to punish in public as my former Dominant did, but as in the case of The Glenmore, I get the look or gesture that a punishment is forthcoming when we are alone.

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    1. That 'look' or a vague comment from her can be enough to correct unacceptable behaviour whether or not she decides to follow up later with a spanking.

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    2. That is true, however, I can only recall a very few times when a spanking did not occur later in the day.

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  3. Hi Dan. I'm in the 86 % group. I want her to step up and be more assertive and aggressive but she's hesitant. When I've done something wrong I tell her to address the matter immediatly so it doesn't become a bigger problem later. She doesn't always appreciate my humor and I've been spankers multiple times for that. I'd much rather get things over with ASAP after the infraction occurs. We've had some serious blow ups over the years and after the spanking is over all is good again. A few months ago we had one if those times. It totally wasn't my fault ( this time ) but I accepted the paddling anyway just to get things back to normal. On a second note. Dev wants a tv on the wall in the bedroom. I agreed and said we should clean and paint it first. THEN she remembers our agreement where I was supposed to have it painted by end of summer. I totally forgot about it. She calmly said she would " discuss" it with me out in the " woodshed " today at 2:00. I still remember last May when we went out there. I can still hear the swoosh of that paddle through the air and feel its impact on my bottom. My real fear today is that it's nice out and the possibility of of our neighbors being out doing yard work and they might see or hear something. ? I'll accept the spanking. I have no choice but I truly dread taking that slow walk across the yard.

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    1. Hi Jr. Sorry to hear about the one you have coming. But, feel free to tell us all about it after it is over. :-)

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    2. Well. At 2:00 I took the slow walk back to the shed. My fears became real as several neighbors were out doing yard work as I did earlier. When I walked into the shed , Dev was sitting there waiting. I immediately asked if we could please do this in the house. She smiled and said no. You created the situation and now going to suffer the consequences. With that said she pulled me across her lap. She was in a good mood before , during and after the event and the lecture wasn't bad at all. Today she used her 12 inch long quarter inch thick mahogany Spenser paddle. She pulled my sweatpants down and the paddling began. It only lasted three or four minutes but it was very firm and fast paced. Each swat made me jump and squirm all over. I tried to be as quiet as I could but it was impossible. When it was over she gave me a hug and all was good again. She told me to lay on the bed and calm down for awhile. She came in an hour later and asked if I was ready to go to Home Depot or did I need any more motivation. Needless to say , we got paint.

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    3. Wow. Very resolute, wasn't she. Do you think the neighbors heard?

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    4. I was punished once that way ,taken to a backyard storage shed by my former girlfriend. I wrote about it a while ago so will spare the details. But she stripped me naked before the spanking and took all my clothes back into the house. Neighbors would certainly have seen me if I had walked back into the house with a very red bare ass. At least someone must have heard the spanking because I do vocalize. But I never heard anything about it. and it was a spanking I never forgot.I don't think I am alone on this but anything approaching public punishment or even one witnessed by another person has a deep impact on me at the time and later as far as the behavior that caused it
      Alan

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    5. Dan. I really hope not ! She said on her way back to the shed she waived to our neighbor Cindi but doesn't think she saw the paddle in her hand ? This part of our lives is very private. I'm a FF/ medic and out in the public every day. I'd be mortified if anyone knew. She approached the event like any other task that needed done. It was definitely one to remember and I'm happy it's done with. She said they are difficult to give as they are to receive but does it to make me and us better. It's been almost 30 yrs and I still feel that closeness even when the spanking is being given. For now all is good in her queendom. I enjoy your blog and thank you for letting me vent a little.

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    6. Thanks, JR. I have similar concerns re: a career that is out in public, and one where there is a fair amount of "macho." Knowing I was spanked by my wife almost certainly would open me up to a fair amount of ridicule. At some point, I may not care. But, for now, I do.

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    7. Alan, As one who has been punished publicly I can certainly agree with what you say. My public punishment spankings always left a deep impact on me. As you say, both at the time and in the future.

      Dan, You are correct about the ridicule suffered by someone learning of our being spanked males. I, too had a visible career and would be concerned about discovery. Now, however, in retirement, I am much less concerned. Some have discovered my plight and I usually state, yes, I am a spanked male and not ashamed.

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  4. I think the "menu"( spankable offenses that really do bring out the paddle)should be some mix of things you want/need to improve and the things about your behavior she wants changed. Ideally all punishable behavior should be motivated by wanting to improve or protect the relationship.Eventually you should both be on the same page about most of the things that are punishable.But we don't agree on everything. She detests "potty mouth" especially in public, even minor slips and almost always punishes me for it, sometimes severely.But I think sometimes my work habits need help and she lets that slip. On the other hand we both agree about major things like alcohol limits, NO smoking and no masturbation without permission. She is very consistent in disciplining me for any of those and actually getting spanked for any of them has become quite rare.One other related thought is that her standards and expectations have increased considerably over the years so things I didn't get punished for originally like temper tantrums and lateness are now punished almost every time.I do think that empowering her makes her aware of areas that need correction and she feels more confident doing it whareas earler she might have repressed her feeling about those behaviors.
    Alan

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    1. Hi Alan. I agree on all this, and it ties into one of the above qoutes about getting spanked less if behavior improves. In theory it should work that way, but I'm sure many wives do start finding other things that need improvement, so the bar always gets raised a little higher.

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  5. Dan
    Regarding the 'forced apology' that Anna insisted I carry out. A few weeks ago I was pissed off from something at work but took it out on one of the volunteer dads that coach my son'e soccer team. In
    front of the boys and as Anna pointed out in front of the coaches son, I read him the riot act. Told him he didnt know anything about soccer. To make matters worse I made sure to invite some of the parents who
    were there to a picnic we were giving . I made a point of not inviting him. It was childish. When Anna got
    wind of it I was punished and forced to go and apologize to the coach the following week in front of my boys and the team. I also invited him and his family to our picnic. Anna had told me he was both embarrassed at how i spoke to him and that he was not invited to your picnic. My reward was my boys
    were so pleased and I could see the coach was the better man. He shook my hand and I went home.
    Anna then forced me to wear a pair of undershorts she made from an old Harris Tweed jacket that had been my dad's. The day of the picnic i was spanked, wore the very itchy shorts under my cotton shorts.

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    1. Thanks, Peter. As I recounted, a few months ago my wife made me apologize to someone who I don't particularly like. It was mortifying and, in some ways, worse than any spanking.

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  6. Just an additional comment on this , I believe as her empowerment and conference grows and develops her enjoyment of administering a spanking increases .So when she gets a thrill and enjoyment of taking charge and spanking her man
    she will look for ways to make them more frequent.

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    1. Agreed. I've always encouraged mine to not hold back if she wants to do it. Initially, she was reticent because she was reluctant to hurt me, but I've always encouraged her to hurt me however much she felt necessary through spanking for her to feel the situation was dealt with. Also, it is the husband's job to protect his wife from hurt: - this isn't mutual. When the initial reluctance was succeeding and she started enjoying it, she felt a reluctance to enjoy it, so more encouragement from me needed.

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  7. I agree with the Glenmore. With confidence, occurrences tend to increase. We are new to this but I think I have a fish in water. We were just on the phone and I heard smacking sounds, took me a second to get the signal - something to look foreword to. Since this is new to us, I agree pleasure for her seems to increase frequency. Btw, great blog, keep it up literally and figuratively. J

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  8. Differing notions on what is more of an issue than something else constitute the main problem we sometimes have. In fact, just this past weekend we discussed this very thing for a very long time. The solution turned out to be simpler than I suppose either of us thought: just say what's bugging you.

    It seems simplistic, but it is actually a big hurdle for us. However, I told Rosa that there are things that bug her that I will NEVER predict ahead of time. She HAS to let me know. THEN if I still don't address whatever it is, discipline can follow. She said that while there is a part of her that always figured I would 'know' these things instinctively, she has learned that such a thing is unlikely to happen. She then said that 'letting me know' just makes sense.

    On the flip side, there are always little things that don't seem to be as big an issue for her as they are for me.....but we have ways of handling that as well. It is also rooted in just being blunt.

    We used to be very good at this and now we hope to recapture the way things were. Time will tell.

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    1. Thanks, KD. I think the last sentence of your first paragraph may be simple but also fairly profound.

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    2. May I add that how and when a wife disciplines will always be, if it has any value, what and when she says it will happen. I also know when I see that the discipline has had an effect and I see an effort to change, then I am ready to move on to the next problem. I think what many wives who discipline worry about is that there will be no change in bad behavior and that the
      punishment erases the problem.
      anna

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    3. With us, it is not so much about whether or not she has told me beforehand, but if it is something that is bothering her: - as the man, I have to be the one to climb down and make the sacrifices (taking a spanking in this case) to restore harmony, whatever the finer details.

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    4. Hi Anna. I can understand that concern, particularly since so many couples talk about a spanking "clearing the air." It does, but that doesn't necessarily mean the underlying problem was fully addressed.

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  9. J. and I have a tacit agreement that I must/should be disciplined (as she sees fit) when she feels aggrieved by my behavior (and the same was true with N., my late wife). I have also, long since, accepted that I have no say when it comes to the "tariff", or the choice of "tools" she may use.
    A more common source of disagreement has to do with having one of her friends witness (or just been told about) my being spanked or whipped - but I have learned to deal with that...
    L.

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    1. Having one of her friends actually witness your spanking is going a bit too far for me.Having her threaten ,mention of hint about your spanking in front of a friend can be quite empowering for her as she is obviously proud of her work.

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    2. Doesn't tend to happen to us, as we regard DD as something very intimate and not for sharing.

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    3. In my case, the precedent was that J. had watched me a few times being spanked by N. (her close friend). Given this precedent, J. is not shy about mentioning to a few of her closest friends how she spanks me - or to (occasionally) give them a 'demonstration'... Her sister, however, is the only one who is entitled not only to watch, but also to "give a hand"... which she does with gusto!
      L.

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