"He who cannot obey himself will be commanded." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Hello all. Welcome back to The Disciplinary Couple’s Club. Our weekly on-line gathering of men and women who are in, or would like to be in, a Domestic Discipline relationship.
Once again, before we get started, I would like to thank the female commenters who have recently joined us and to extend an invitation to all others who may be inclined to move from “lurker” to “commenter” status. We like having you around.
I hope you all had a good week. Mine seemed to be an extension of a year in which it seems like every damn thing that can go wrong does.
I feel like the above meme is right, but it also means I am fucked, because I’m already drinking plenty of coffee; sex could probably be amped up but that's clearly not the source of my problems; part of my bad luck involves unanticipated expenses and the outflow of money, yet this administration’s fucked up approach to tariffs sure as hell isn’t putting any money in my brokerage account; and, more booze would just exacerbate all the shit that was wrong in my most recent physical exam.
On the other hand . . .
I don’t have a lot to add to last week’s discussion. It was a narrow topic, and thank you to all those who took the time to give us the details of the mechanics of your spanking sessions. Prior to that topic, Norton had dissed those very tactical/mechanical kind of topics, saying he preferred those that were more psychologically penetrating. So, this week, I’ll switch gears to one of those (which I admit I prefer anyway.)
A few weeks ago, Doug had these
two comments:
"Dan, what about spanking not as discipline for any specific infraction, but as a pure expression of power, to make clear who is the boss? Would that not be as powerful as punishment? It is for me because it also makes the spanking “real”. What’s important to me is that she’s not just pretending to be the boss, she is for real. The less consensual it feels, the better. In my head I think that’s not very healthy, but I can’t help being wired this way."
"The thing that really turns me on about DD is the idea that it isn’t fully consensual because it is based on the wife having real authority over her husband, the way parents and teachers used to have real authority over kids when I was growing up. In my fantasies, which began when I was a kid, spankings were always non-consensual, like the spankings I got for real."
It seems like we cover fairly regularly the topic of consent or, more precisely, the desire some of us have to feel like our discipline is imposed whether we like or not. So, I was a little surprised to find that the last time we covered it as a full-blown topic seems to have been way back in 2021. Since it's been awhile, hopefully this won’t feel stale to many of our current contributors.
I predict in advance that I’ll be fighting off the Google censors all week on this one. But, they will me misinterpreting the essence of the discussion, wrongly importing connotations from one context to another in which they don’t really fit. Here’s how Alan put it last time:
The consensual model has been borrowed from contemporary norms of sexual behavior and it is not a perfect fit for adult spanking. That is why we have invented incongruities like “consensual non consent”. “Consent” doesn’t fit that well both due to the nature of disciplinary spanking and due to the needs of most spankos to feel a punishment is being imposed on them or they are being made to obey. To complicate it even further, a lot of the spankings I get are really not wanted (at the time) and for sure during many spankings I do not want it to continue (at that time). Later,of course, I am very happy she did what she did. Thus the dilemma, how does one consent to something really not wanted (at the time)? The answer I think is that consent once given is in practice rarely withdrawn as long as the relationship continues.
I had written in that post about a real-life scandal that was making the news and that I was very intrigued by. It involved a “self-improvement” group called NXIVM, which was the subject of an extensive New York Times article under the headline, “Inside Nxivm, the Sex Cult That Preached Empowerment.”
In its more benign aspects, NXIVM was a collaborative self-help group that
used certain methods to help people get sufficient “leverage” over themselves
to overcome sticky bad habits or motivate higher levels of performance. That could involve aversive consequences for not meeting one’s goals or commitments, along
with some creative means for making those consequences stick. For example, if
someone in a support group failed to meet their exercise goals, they and
the entire group might have to go for a 6:00 am run. Basically, it was peer pressure, but the idea was to tie goals to coercive consequences. Kind of like DD, right?
The consequences got more serious at some levels of the organization. For example, they employed something called “collateral” to “help” people get additional leverage over themselves. For example, a participant might write a letter with some embarrassing detail about their life, or perhaps something even more embarrassing, like a naked picture. If they failed at whatever thing they were trying to do, like quitting smoking for example, the embarrassing letter or picture might be released to a pre-set list of friends or family.
It was consensual, as the participants agreed to it; indeed, they wanted this additional form of coercive motivation. But, once put in motion, there was supposed to be a real risk that the “collateral” might be acted on (though, I haven’t seen anything indicating it ever was).
Senior leaders of the group were later prosecuted, and some pretty nasty stuff came out. I’m absolutely not defending any of it. But, the stuff that was in the earlier New York Times article had been pretty tame, and I admit that for a while I was genuinely fascinated by the whole thing.
A couple of popular streaming platforms later developed series about the group, and one revealed that at some level of the organization, there had been a disciplinary spanking angle and a pretty heavy Dominance/submission vibe, exemplified in this text string:
ZM was maybe only slightly less fascinated than I, which led him to this observation:
Perhaps the more interesting issue than consent (which we have talked about extensively) is coercion. What role does coercion play in spanking? Just because DD is consensual, it doesn't mean that coercion isn't also being employed. Why do I take down my pants and bend over for a spanking? And what effect does that coercion have? Is it desirable or undesirable? And what does the interplay between coercion, dominance, and submission look like? BTW, coercion doesn't just apply to spanking. About the most interesting thing about the whole NXIUM cult was their use of "collateral" to use to coerce members into achieving their personal goals.
Even though we both know that I will in every case submit to her will on this, I still want to feel like she is coercing me somewhat. I want her to threaten me about what will happen if I check out other women, for example. Right now, I am trying to lose weight, and I like knowing (though I dread it) that if I don't hit my weight target my bottom is going to pay a hefty price. In a very real way, this is similar to NXIUM, only it is physical and personal.
A commenter named Brett
chimed in with this observation about how some of us seem to be wired to want
spanking discipline to feel imposed by an outside will that overcomes our own:
Thinking about it, I’d have to say that the "why" does matter. If I’m obedient to my wife because I’m such a nice guy, or I love her just that much, or I’m naturally submissive, hate confrontations or other such character traits, it’s missing the key ingredient that my obedience is compelled by the threat of a spanking. Obedience is also demonstrated in the submission to punishment, but what makes it so embarrassing and humbling is when obedience is perceived to be compelled, not by willing submission, but by her will to power.
For me, the “imposed” element of DD—being brought to heel by another’s expression of will and power—has always been a key part of the attraction. In fact, the very first fiction story on the Disciplinary Wives Club website—hence, probably the first story I read about real adult disciplinary spanking—is about a woman whose friend advised her to spank her husband, imposing the entire DD relationship, as retribution for some comments her husband made about the friend’s attractive legs.
After she summarily informs him he is going to be spanked when they get home, at first he thinks she must be joking. Then he objects, then tries to plead, then finally crumples under her superior will:
“At that point Becky's look became determined; her voice quiet, but assured. "I will forget it after I have brought you to tears, dear, then all will be forgiven. But I don't want you to think for one instant that there is ANY way you can avoid my spanking you. There isn't. And furthermore, in the future, I shall make it a practice to spank you whenever I feel you need it, and you will accept it as you did your mother's spankings. Most men can profit from a dose of maternal discipline, and from now on you will be one of the lucky ones."
My favorite story on the DWC website, Even More (written by our frequent contributor Al), is more consensual at the outset, in that the husband affirmatively suggests they try the DD relationship. But, from the very first spanking forward, he argues, balks and (verbally) resists each time a real spanking has been earned, and each spanking vignette in the story involves his wife overcoming his resistance with her increasingly confident assertions of her own will and power.
So, for me, from the very beginning I’ve wanted our DD relationship to feel less consensual than it actually is. I have no doubt that Doug is right to connect it to wanting something that feels more like parental discipline, where my views on whether a spanking should happen were utterly irrelevant to the outcome. Having asked Anne for this kind of relationship, I really do wish there was something she could do that would make it clear that, while being spanked by her may have been my idea initially, there is no going back.
And, there undeniably elements of our DD relationship that do happen without my express buy-in. Sometimes, it’s very subtle. Here in this group, we often discuss aspects of the spanking mechanics or dynamic that we don’t really like or would like to change. In recent years, I’ve gotten more sensitive to the fact that if I don’t like something or have a strongly adverse reaction to it, that may be a sign that her authority is working exactly as it should – if this is real, then there should be all sorts of elements I don’t like yet have no real choice about.
And, there is of course the inherent lack of subjective consent in getting a spanking that you really do not want in the moment, and that you really, really want to end, even if you undeniably consent to it happening again in the future. Alan's quote above says that even though consent can theoretically be withdrawn, it probably rarely is, and my sense is that's true thanks to some combination of her learning to enjoy exercising her willpower and him becoming increasingly psychologically bound to do what she wants.
Most of the time, the elements that feel somewhat nonconsensual are subtle and mild. Yet, part of me really does not want that to be the case.
I have no idea why I want to feel like I’m so thoroughly under another’s authority in this one facet of my life, and seemingly nowhere else. I’ve never been able to figure out how I could be so completely anti-authoritarian at work, yet I have this thing for being under the authority of a strong, aggressive woman at home.
Part of me clearly craves being spanked over my objection and in circumstances that violate my sense of personal boundaries. I’ve talked here about a dream I had that involved being taken out of an office gathering to be spanked by a male office manager. It was made clear by everyone in the room—including my wife and dad, who were both oddly in attendance at this large office function—that it was going to happen because I richly deserved it. I was led out of the party by the office manager, knowing that he would bring me back afterward with everyone knowing I had been spanked. It was very mortifying.
It’s by far the most vivid spanking dream I’ve ever had. I had one recently that touched on similar themes of being spanked involuntarily. Though the dream was shorter and less vivid than the other, the consent themes were, if anything, even stronger. I’ve lost a lot of the details, but I had accidentally gone into another couple’s house. The wife was surprised and disturbed to see a stranger in the house, and I tried to leave as soon as I realized the error. But, her husband—a big, burly man, much larger and older than me—followed me out, carrying a large belt in his hand. In that funny way of dreams, we seemed to know each other, but he doesn’t clearly fit anyone I know in real life (in my office dream, the manager who took me out was, in fact, the manager of my office). He was a very big guy, with a big unruly beard. He made it clear I was going to get strapped with the belt. I ran away and made it back to my house, but he appeared out of nowhere and reiterated that I was going to be spanked. I was very resistant to it, but he kept making it clear it was going to happen. Fortunately, or unfortunately, I woke up before it did.
I don’t dream about spanking very often, and that when I do the dreams often involve parental presence and/or a strong element of coercion or embarrassment is suggestive of something my subconscious wants and/or fears. That the person holding the belt in this recent dream was a large, domineering man, suggests I want—or think I want—something that feels more coercive, less consensual, more threatening.
The reality is these relationships are, should be, and must be consensual. I could physically overpower Anne to resist a spanking anytime. I think the closest we’ve come to me feeling truly disempowered in a way that felt almost like consensual non-consent were a couple of times when I had done something that I saw as very minor, but she delivered a very hard spanking for it.
The imbalance between the spanking I thought I deserved and the spanking I actually received did accentuate the uneven power hierarchy. It was a consensual hierarchy, but one that resulted in a real power imbalance. And, while immediately afterward it felt very disquieting, later on it was a very big turn-on.
So, I share Doug’s fascination with spanking scenarios that feel like I am not the one in control and that things will happen whether I like or not. That’s why this sentence in his comment really struck me:
“What’s important to me is that she’s not just pretending to be the boss, she is for real.”
I don’t have a concrete set of questions in mind for this topic. Do with it what you will.
Have a great week.
Wow, a BIG topic!
ReplyDeleteJust to make things even bigger, and provide some food for thought and discussion, recently I've been working on a functional definition of "consensual non-consent" as it might apply to a DWC style domestic discipline relationship. What I include before are only a few preliminary "snippets" from the beginning and and end of that work, but they do address some of the apparent contradictions.
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"The concept embodied in the phrase "Consensual Non-Consent" is an essential element of all successful Domestic Discipline (DD) relationships. Unfortunately, the phrase "Consensual Non-Consent" is a very poor and often misleading way to describe a husband's and wife's expressions of "general consent" to future circumstances or actions that would normally require "specific and contemporaneous consent." Future actions that without some form of consent would be violations of the husband's or wife's fundamental rights (i.e., "abuse" of a partner)."
"A much better phrase than "Consensual Non-Consent" would be "prior general consent to future absences of consent" (quite cumbersome), or more succinctly the two linked phrases: [prior] "general consent" to [future] "absence of consent." Because there are so many different future circumstances that might require "specific and contemporaneous consent," the broad characteristics, ranges and limits of such circumstances must be predefined for the husband and wife to each give their meaningful and valid prior "general consent" to later "absences of consent.""
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"The partners, by establishing and building their deep mutual trust in specific areas, and granting their "general consent" to the negotiated framework, elements, responsibilities and limits of the DWC disciplinary relationship, neither partner need concern themselves with issuing or obtaining future consent in a wide range of circumstances. Their mutual trust combined with "general consent" establishes their individual and mutual agreement to future "absences of consent" (i.e., overall "consensual non-consent"). Thus, "mutual trust" and "general consent" (by whatever name) are what really allow DWC relationships to function, and function well, in our everyday lives.
"(In additional, most couples generally understand and agree that sustaining the overall relationship and its benefits is usually much more important than occasional feelings of unfairness and even minor variations from the agreement. Many partners agree in advance that, when one partner believes there has been a "non-minor variation," or some lack of mutual understanding of their agreement, either partner can at any time require a "pause" in the disciplinary relationship. They can require that both partners immediately "pause" to allow discussions, clarifications, and resolution of concerns, thereby allowing the overall disciplinary relationship to resume and move forward to the benefit of both.)"
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Well, as I said, that is just preliminary, partial work to explain to a relative "novice" how consent seems to work in many DD relationships.
Comments, additions, criticisms are welcomes.
I actually do not like the phrase consent non consent. The line for some reason annoys me to an extent. Most of us here approached our wives about DD. I gave my “consent” to punish me at anytime she sees fit in our marriage. Obviously, you have to have such a tremendous level of trust built between you both. After all it took balls, to bring it up to her in the first place. When we started the not so perfect journey, I told her I would never refuse to bend over when required or told to do so. I explained if I didn’t agree, we would discuss it after. To this day, my wife has never thrashed me for something I didn’t deserve. As a matter a fact, much like a parent does, she’s allowed me way too much ground in aspects we agreed should be punishable. There have been many times, she should have thrashed the daylights out of me. I think we over analyze the consent non consent thing. At the beginning, my wife did not enjoy thrashing me. I feel now after all these years, just as below, she has seen great improvement in my attitude after a severe thrashing. She enjoys seeing me squirm and perspire. She sees an immediate attitude improvement. I’m awaiting her arrival home in a few days from taking care of a sick relative. As stated last week, my mouth got me into trouble again. I’m due for a serious strapping.
DeleteT
You're probably not the only one who doesn't like the phrase, or even the concept. One of our former contributors, KD Pierre, and I went round and round about it, with him insisting that every F/m spanking is, by definition, fully consensual because it could be resisted. I don't disagree that he's literally right, but the argument is also *too* literal and ignores the broader concept that people are trying to get at.
DeleteDonn, I guess I would quibble with the first sentence. While I would like my own DD relationship to have a strong "consensual non-consent" element at its core, I don't know that it's an essential element of a successful DD relationship. I think we've had plenty of commenters here who have successful DD relationships that don't seem to incorporate that element.
DeletePersonally, to me "general consent" to [future] "absence of consent" isn't an improvement on consensual non-consent. To my legal-trained ear, it seems overly legalistic.
Marriage/ relationships are by definition ‘consensual’ in that either party can end them ( usually). My wife had some trouble understanding DD and why I would want it and if she did apply wasn’t she just fuelling a sexual fantasy. My explanation has always been that DD is a form of contractual agreement between us in which there are benefits and penalties. There are parts of any contract that one party or the other does not like when those parts are invoked but that is the contract. I don’t find the actual spanking erotic - far from it but the anticipation and memory can often be very erotic. I am motivated to be in a DD relationship to some degree by that erotic charge. But I am also motivated by DD to modify my behaviour, to provide more balance in our relationship and to increase our physical & emotional intimacy. DD is now so embedded in our marriage ‘contract that removing it would probably require a wholesale renegotiation of that contract… TB
Delete"There are parts of any contract that one party or the other does not like when those parts are invoked but that is the contract." Good way to put it.
DeleteWhen T has made it clear that it's time for a spanking, I struggle to keep my mouth shut or I shuffle my feet to delay what is about happen. If I try to talk my way out, there are serious consequences.This would make T stop and put away the hairbrush. She won't spank me again until I come to her and ask her to spank me. That is so incredibly hard for me to do. How do you ask someone to light your ass on fire?
ReplyDeleteMy spankings are typically 'attitude adjustments', more so than disciplinary spankings. This is not to say I don't earn my share of those too.
For the last seventeen years, we have had a DD relationship. It's not perfect, but a rather a work in progress. After I have surrendered naked over my wife's lap, she will blister my butt until what remains is a contrite, remorseful, forgiven, sobbing husband. She'll hold me for a few minutes, and settle my tears. And then, as if a wand has been waived, I feel like I've been reset. The clutter of stress that makes me a pissy, short tempered ass, is gone. A relief comes like I cannot describe. All is well. For now....
When we first started. I would try and delay or make an excuse. My wife stood firm and said, “this is what you wanted.” I then never again delayed the inevitable. I brought up here multiple times, I have a hard time asking for a thrashing. As a matter of fact it only happened one time after a golf outing. I was wrong and we were in a tiff. I called apologized and told her I needed a beating. She delivered and I regretted asking. I agree that my attitude changes and a sense of relief comes over me as well. A reset so to speak.
DeleteT
I agree that asking for one is incredibly hard - for me at least. When someone says they always ask for one they deserve, it makes me wonder whether they are getting anything like the spankings you describe or is it, rather, "funishment". Though, honestly, I don't think it's so much the prospect of physical pain that keeps me from asking for one I know I deserve but, rather, the fact that I know I deserve one is hard to admit.
Delete"The clutter of stress that makes me a pissy, short tempered ass, is gone." Totally get it.
Two concepts in this discussion ring true in our 24/7 FLR with DD household. One being the consent issue. It was stated above that consent is only given once and never revoked or had to be given again. In our discussion prior to us beginning our FLR, consent was given for her to act as she determines necessary. She determines when discipline is needed, how it is given along with implement choice, duration and force. My part of consent is to accept her decisions on discipline factors and to accept my spanking without question.
ReplyDeleteThe other is the result. No matter how often or hard the spanking may be, no matter of how I feel during the punishment or about her control over me, the final result is wonderful. The clean slate feeling or as mentioned above the feeling of being reset after a good discipline spanking is like no other I know of. Long live dominant women and the submissive men they control.
Your definitely in a different boat that most here SC, as you are in a 24/7 FLR. Ours is just DD. I agree with the clean slate feeling you describe.
DeleteFrom the beginning, we said she would have full authority regarding discipline, yet 20 years later, she still often asks me whether I think I should be spanked for something. Despite our frequently expressed agreements to the contrary, I often feel I still have way too much control over whether one happens.
DeleteDan, I hate it when my wife asks me whether she *needs* to spank me. I don’t even know how to answer the question because I feel so evenly torn between yes and no. I have sometimes answered with a feeble “maybe”. My strongest instinct is to say “no” because saying “yes” would feel either disrespectful or unserious about real DD. When I was a kid, being asked by my mother whether she “needed” to spank me was always an ultimatum of the form, “Are you going to do as you’re told, or do I have to take your pants down.” (Just remembered that detail. My mother sometimes used the expression “take your pants down” meaning “spank”. That’s a bit weird, isn’t it?). My wife sometimes asks whether she “needs” to spank me in that context, i.e. does she need to spank me or am I going to obey or stop arguing or change my attitude. In that context, I always say no, even though part of me wants to be spanked. Not saying “no” would sound defiant. I should say that there is a certain thrill to feeling coerced by the threat of a spanking because it feels indicative of a real D/s power dynamic in my marriage.
DeleteDoug
Doug, because I wasn't spanked much as a child, I don't have the same reaction when asked if I need to be spanked. Usually I am asked that in the form of a threat, which seems to work very well, especially in the middle of an argument. My answer would always be no, and the argument stops. Sometimes at the end of a spanking, she will ask me if I need more. I need to consider it before I give her an answer, but about half the time, my answer is yes. Most of my spankings are for maintenance, and they are therapeutic in that they help calm me down and keep me in line. If I haven't been spanked hard or long enough, they aren't as effective. Therefore, most of my spankings are pretty hard, and I am grateful to her for giving me what I need.
DeleteTo Anonymous, Dan and Doug, Perhaps my living in a 24/7 FLR in addition to a DD household makes some differences, but I feel the concept is very similar to most here. She never 'asks' if I think I need punishment, she tells me. The consent issue was decided years ago and has never altered. There are times I confess and actually bring her an implement, but mostly she informs me when punishment is due. Most times I already know it is due and don't need her direction of 'strip' ( if I am clothed), of when away from home a simple 'bare your ass' or 'bare it' or perhaps only 'get ready'. All mean I am getting spanked and to present my ass to accept my punishment. There is no debate or me trying to minimize the infraction. During the spanking she may use the words 'you know you earned this' or some others I quoted in past writings episodes. In every case the 'clean slate' feeling follows the punishment and the issue is dropped. It is never brought up again unless there is a repeat offense.
Delete“In our discussion prior to us beginning our FLR, consent was given for her to act as she determines necessary. She determines when discipline is needed, how it is given along with implement choice, duration and force. My part of consent is to accept her decisions on discipline factors and to accept my spanking without question.”
DeleteSpanked Cowboy, that’s the way I see it too. Like you, I view DD within the framework of FLR, which means that the power exchange is more extensive than it might be in a more limited disciplinary agreement. If you look at consent and non consent as a psychological phenomenon, I would go so far as to say that as you get farther into a FLR, after that initial granting of consent, DD eventually becomes practically non consensual because both parties take the woman’s disciplinary authority for granted.
Doug
Relying to Norton
Delete“Usually I am asked that in the form of a threat, which seems to work very well, especially in the middle of an argument. My answer would always be no, and the argument stops”.
That is exactly what happens in our house too.
“Sometimes at the end of a spanking, she will ask me if I need more. I need to consider it before I give her an answer, but about half the time, my answer is yes”.
My wife does that too. Unlike you, I always answer “no” in that situation. But unlike you, I never get maintenance spankings. In your situation, I would probably answer the way you do. I wish my wife wouldn’t give me the choice to end the spanking.
Doug
"When I was a kid, being asked by my mother whether she “needed” to spank me was always an ultimatum of the form, “Are you going to do as you’re told, or do I have to take your pants down.”"
DeleteDoug, I agree, it's very different when phrased as an ultimatum.
Good topic. Because I didn't comment on the last post, my responce will include both. We do a check in twice a week, and one on Monday morning always includes a maintenance spanking. The 2nd check in might also include a spanking, which is up to her. Sometimes I realize that I need a spanking, and she will happily comply. She has become a very proficient spanker, in spite of shoulder problems. All spankings leave my butt quite red, and often wrinkled. I have encouraged her to always spank hard, and, over the years, the spankings have gotten harder. Most are OTK, but if her shoulder is bothering her, she will spank me over the bed. I have encouraged her to give me corner time before a spanking, which helps settle me down and concentrate. Corner time can also be used to separate spankings given for different reasons. R.e. the consent/non consent topic, she has complete authority to order a spanking at any time, for any reason. She will not tolerate any discussion, and if I want to discuss it, she will say "Are you arguing with me?" which can lead to an additional spanking. She knows that I want and need her to be consistent and strict, and the more she is, the happier I seem to be. She has never been unreasonable, and is generally very intuative about knowing when I need a spanking. The 2 offences that have caused me to receive the hardest spankings are aggressive driving and going over my alcohol limit. These are both things I want to change as well, and will self report if I drank too much or ran a light. We have a statement which we often read before a check in to remind us of our commitment to our DD and our responsibilities. I have agreed to inform her of any behavior I know she would not approve of, and will submit to any discipline she decides to give me. Her agreement is to discipline me whenever she is aware I need it. She takes this quite seriously, and is great about letting me know when she feels I need to be reined in. DD has really helped me to become more vulnerable and a sensitive partner. The frequent spankings help keep me humble and respectful. We hardly ever argue, and if we do, I have requested her to end the argument with the threat of a spanking. DD has helped her to become much more assertive and confident, which shows up in everyday life as well. Our friends know she will not take shit from anybody, and they seem to admire her spunky attitude.
ReplyDelete"We hardly ever argue, and if we do, I have requested her to end the argument with the threat of a spanking." I wish Anne would do that more but, to be fair, it's probably not an easy thing to do in the heat of battle.
DeleteThe only time our arguments are settled with spanking would be if I don't argue 'fairly'.
DeleteThat is remaining respectful, no personal comments, not raising my voice , no swearing , and especially , listening to her without interruption or speaking over her.
Not easy , but I have learned from experience.
The not listening rule I'd the one that gets me spanked these days.
I listen a lot better when over her lap!
Both my wife and my former G.F. have said something similar while I was O.T.K. on a couch, as in "Alan ,this is the only time you really listen to me, Why is that? There is something about O.T.K. that focuses the mind.
DeleteAlan
I just had a thought about the psychological power dynamic of DD that relates to the issue of consent…at least for me. Maybe not for everyone. If the woman in a female led DD relationship is confident in her authority and embraces the idea that her husband’s need for discipline gives her a right to dish it out as SHE sees fit, she is in a position of psychological strength. If her husband has asked for discipline because some part of him is turned on by female dominance, he is in a position of psychological weakness in the event of conflict in any specific situation. If my wife demands that I obey her, or if she decides to punish me for some reason of her own, a part of me may want to rebel against her authority. That is often the case. But as long as her will is strong and unitary, my resistance to her authority will be weak because I am psychologically divided against myself. For that reason, when she orders me to lower my pants for a spanking, my obedience isn’t fully consensual because it is the result of a psychological power imbalance that may be as real as a difference in physical strength.
ReplyDeleteThat’s why it feels to me like there is an element of coercion in DD.
Incidentally, have any of you noticed that spanking fiction that emphasizes consent as opposed to coercion seems insipid and unexciting? Or is that just me?
Doug
It seems like in the early years of most DD relationships, the wife is psychologically divided too, because she often isn't confident of her own power, and she may have concerns about hurting him "too much." My wife has told me that it was hard for her to really commit herself to being in charge, because she couldn't really understand why any man would want this kind of discipline and, hence, she always had this nagging belief that at some point I would decide I didn't want it anymore.
DeleteI do think today she is reasonably confident that if she orders a spanking, I will comply. She's also getting much better about speaking her mind when she's pissed about something.
I learned during our last discussion of coercion that it's a word that has very different connotations for different people. Some objected to it strongly and seemed to equate it with something like extortion or blackmail. I see it much more benignly, as equivalent to applying pressure or a threat of some sort to bring about compliance. It could be something as benign as your recent comment about how "Do I need to spank you?" can be an ultimatum.
Yes, I too find stories that emphasize consent to be very unexciting. I sometimes don't even like it when, after the spanking, the recipient has come around fully to the spanker's point of view. KD Pierre has a story (you can find it on the Library of Spanking Fiction" called "Pride," in which the husband has a very difficult relationship with his wife's best friend. She spanks him for fighting with the friend. The friend manipulates the situation to get him spanked by the wife and by her. When she spanks him, she is very direct that she is getting off on having power over him and she likes it that he has to take a spanking from her even though he detests her. I loved the story, except at the very end where he seems to totally forgive the friend and fully accept her authority over him. Up until that point, the coercive element was super strong, and that was what I liked about it.
Dan, my feeling about the word “coercion” is similar to yours. I think the threat of punishment, whether justified or not, is by definition coercive insofar as it is meant to serve as a deterrent.
DeleteI haven’t read the story you mention. I should look it up. But from your plot summary, it sounds like the writer gave an anticlimactic ending to a very exciting story about having to submit to an unwanted spanking from an antagonist. It’s as though he ruined a perfectly good fantasy by trying to sneak consent in the back door for didactic reasons.
Doug
It didn't ruin it, but I thought it did undermine what had been the direction of the story to that point.
DeleteDoug, it is confusing to me how your obedience isn't fully consensual because you are "psychologically divided against yourself" You need and want her to be the authority, and I assume, you gave her the consent and encouragement to spank you whenever she chooses. In almost all of the relationships we read about in here, we requested to be spanked by the women we love, and they do it because they love us. To me, her spanking me is always an expression of love. It is a fundamental part of my sexuality, and I am extremely grateful to her for giving me what I need. That seems like the opposite of coercion. Please enlighten me if I am missing something here.
ReplyDeleteNorton, I think it is true that my wife agreed to a having a female led relationship with DD because she loves me and wants our marriage to be a success. So, yes, there is a consensual framework for DD overall. But I distinguish between the overall framework to which I have consented and specific disciplinary acts. If my wife spanks me for talking back to her disrespectfully, her immediate purpose is not to express her love. It is to show her displeasure, to adjust my attitude, and to change my behaviour. Similarly, if she threatens to spank me if I fail to complete some chore by a certain time, she is explicitly coercing me to do as she says. Dan mentioned the argument that since I could at any time refuse to submit to such coercion, it can’t be considered non consensual. By that argument my submission is by definition my consent. It is hard to refute that logic. My argument is that there is a psychological dynamic that isn’t captured by logic. If my wife and I both become psychologically conditioned to FEEL that she doesn’t need my consent to punish me, does discipline not become non consensual in the same way that parent /child discipline is non consensual? There is also an element of coercion built into the overall relationship, insofar as my wife could choose to withdraw from the agreed power dynamic completely if I begin to pick and choose when I will or will not “consent” to being disciplined as she sees fit. That’s how I think about it, but I understand that some people might see DD as morally unacceptable or unhealthy if it is not explicitly consensual at every level.
DeleteDoug
Good discussion and I think the critical point. For DD to really work, I think that the dynamic has to have reached a point where punishment is essentially non-consentual for both parties... she doesn't require explicit consent at the time (and is obligated to punish), and you have no option but to accept the punishment regardless of strongly not wanting it at the time.
DeleteThis is where my wife and I have really struggled. She will threaten me with a spanking to achieve desired behaviour, but is not confident in the dynamic to carry it out if I even weakly object (which I do because I know that it is going to hurt). As such we've lapsed apart from the recently discussed fitness support and non-smoking standing order... Some other things will attract a non-consentual (at the time) spanking but it is certainly not consistent.
Consensual!
DeleteDoug, it's understood that some people would think it is unhealthy to give total consent to your mate to discipline you whenever she decided to. It certainly isn't for everybody, and takes a lot of trust, honesty, and love to make it work. At the end of the day, real F/M DD means her having that power over you, regardless of how you may feel about it. Period. Without that explicit agreement, it's just role play. It requites her to be strong enough to set firm boundaries, stick with them. It requires you to trust her, and accept her decisions without question. At least that's my understanding of real DD. My guess is, this was probably your idea, not hers. If you have a woman willing to do that, you are a lucky man indeed.
DeleteMerk said: "This is where my wife and I have really struggled. She will threaten me with a spanking to achieve desired behaviour, but is not confident in the dynamic to carry it out if I even weakly object (which I do because I know that it is going to hurt)."
DeleteEven after 20+ years, we still struggle with it, too. It sometimes takes only very weak protest on my part to avoid something we both know I should have coming.
Yep exactly. And yet I want to be able to protest and have it happen regardless. She understands this and wants the same for me, but it is different for her in the moment... and then the opportunity is lost and dynamic affected.
DeleteFor me, it's not that I want to be able to protest or that protesting adds some extra edge to the experience. I just have a very hard time *not* trying, however weakly, to delay or avoid when confronted with the near-inevitable.
DeleteTo Merk:
DeleteYou wrote: “For DD to really work, I think that the dynamic has to have reached a point where punishment is essentially non-consensual for both parties... she doesn't require explicit consent at the time (and is obligated to punish), and you have no option but to accept the punishment regardless of strongly not wanting it at the time”.
I agree with you, except that I don’t think my wife would accept that she is “obligated to punish.” I think she views the power to punish me as a prerogative rather than an obligation. Something that drives me crazy is that she has sometimes said she is going to spank me, but then she fails to follow through. When I have complained, she has said that she can change her mind if she wants to because our agreement is that she is the boss.
To Norton:
You wrote, “…real F/M DD means her having that power over you, regardless of how you may feel about it. Period. Without that explicit agreement, it's just role play.”
Yes. Exactly.
“It requites her to be strong enough to set firm boundaries, stick with them. It requires you to trust her, and accept her decisions without question. At least that's my understanding of real DD. My guess is, this was probably your idea, not hers. If you have a woman willing to do that, you are a lucky man indeed.”
Yes, it was my idea, and yes, being prepared to submit to the will of another person on a 24/7 basis requires trust that she will not use that power in an abusive or harmful way. Fortunately, I trust in my wife’s leadership because I believe that she is truly my superior in certain ways. She has greater self discipline than I do, and she is more emotionally stable than I am. In a D/s relationship, that’s the kind of person who should be on top, right? I think non consensual D/s could be dangerous if the dominant partner had any kind of mental health problems that could affect their judgment. It’s funny you say that I am a “lucky man” because I often feel envious of other guys here whose wives spank more harshly and more frequently than mine does. I wish I could have maintenance spankings. I am also envious of guys who get spanked OTK. My wife knows I long to be taken over her knee, but she does it the way she prefers, making me bend over the end of the bed.
Doug
Doug, it's all relative. I sometimes get envious of some of the more adventurous here, who have experienced things like witnesses. I also sometimes feel a touch of envy of those whose wives are stricter and faster to punish than mine. But, others would love to get someone has strict and consistent as mine.
Delete"She has greater self discipline than I do, and she is more emotionally stable than I am. In a D/s relationship, that’s the kind of person who should be on top, right?" That's pretty true of us as well. She's definitely more emotionally stable. I used to think she did not have greater self-discipline and, instead, just didn't have the same proclivity toward certain vices that I do, but I now believe she is more disciplined as well. There is a great quote by Oliver Wendell Holmes, describing President Roosevelt (it's unclear in context which Roosevelt he was referring to, but most likely Theodore) as having "a second class intellect but a first class temperament." I think Anne would agree that I'm the deeper thinker between the two of us, but she definitely outclasses me on temperament.
"a second class intellect but a first class temperament."
DeleteI think that was a description of FDR but I will check. It fascinating when one researches the source of many well known quotations. Historians tell us many are misatributed -and many are from sources unknown,
Alan
I read up on this one a little, and it's vague on its face. Holmes was appointed to the court by Theodore and was a contemporary of both Roosevelts. He was talking about both of them at the time in the context of the full conversation. It's not clear from the text itself which of the two he was referring to. It's a description that would seem to me to Theodore in particular. While he was very well read and wrote several books, there was nothing very deep or penetrating in his speeches or writing. He definitely wasn't a dummy, but I don't think Holmes would have equated "dumb" and "second class." It takes a lot to be a truly "first class" intellect. Though, I wouldn't characterize Holmes as first class either. His reputation comes from being clever with a quip and infinitely quotable. He often got the core legal issue wrong and many of his decisions have not aged well.
DeleteAlan:
DeleteRE: "a second class intellect but a first class temperament"
Time Magazine, The Christian Science Monitor, The Prospect and National Public Radio (all considered "reasonably reliable sources"), attribute Justice Holmes' phrase to his perception of FDR (not Teddy, his uncle).
I just read Dan's brief analysis of the "primary source" material, and would go with Dan's likely conclusion of "Teddy" (absent any further explanation from big-media).
DeleteMy wife and I are in a light FLR. She doesn’t control everything in our relationship, but she is in charge of home maintenance and how the family schedules operate. She has set certain rules regarding the family schedule and chores that she is 100% committed to spanking me for, when I disobey. I’m also not allowed to have a temper outburst.
ReplyDeleteIt took a LONG time for her to embrace this role, over many years of me asking her and praying that she would.
So now, when she tells me that I’m going to be spanked for something, I feel like I have zero control over it. I don’t want it, and even if I beg her not to spank me, I feel like I don’t have a choice. Technically I could always refuse, but the consequence of that would be jeopardize the relationship structure I’ve wanted for so long.
So in reality, my spankings are non-consensual because I don’t have any acceptable options left other than to accept my punishment - whether I want it or not doesn’t matter.
Thanks, Chris H, and welcome. It is paradoxical, isn't it? Many of us want this lifestyle so much that we risk embarrassment and potential rejection to ask for it. Then, when we face the concrete consequences we asked for, we want out of it. But, we would go into a panic if she suggested ending it entirely.
DeleteTo those who aren't wired to want this, your last paragraph would probably sound kind of dark. Yet, for many of us who are wired this way, finding ourselves with no options other than to accept a punishment we don't want is the ideal state.
Dan, exactly right. Paradoxical? Indeed. Do we want and need it? Yes, we do! Personally, I have never wanted out of it. It has made our lives so much better.
ReplyDeleteThere have been a very small handful of times I've gotten frustrated with it, but I can think of only one that I had any serious thoughts about whether it wasn't working. There have been times when I thought that maybe I'd "outgrown" the need for it. Then, inevitably, I'd do something that showed unmistakably that I had *not* grown nearly as much as I thought.
DeleteThere is less nuance involved when the wife has decided that she is in charge in certain matters and will spank when she thinks it deserved. When I accepted this decision I had never been spanked, but had been interested since my teen years. I had found accounts of spankings stimulating, and the idea of wifely spankings had a certain appeal. But the first time I went over her knee I was stunned that my sweet little wife could inflict such pain. Many more were to follow. I do find a spanking erotic but the last few minutes are usually close to intolerable. But this is what I've consented to and they are a big part of our close union.
DeleteI think without getting as technical as some. Chris’s statement summed it up best.
ReplyDeleteI posted earlier today but it looks like something went wrong, so I'll repeat it now.
ReplyDeleteThere is very little nuance about consent when the wife decides that she will spank when she thinks it needed. My wife made that decision and I accepted it. I had never been spanked but for some reason got interested in it in my teens. And the idea of a spanking from my wife had a real appeal to me. When I first went over her knee, I thought it would be interesting and fun, but in fact was stunned by the pain my sweet little wife inflicted. Many more spankings have followed, and they vary from short "reminders" to long, terribly sore ones. I dread the serious ones, but I find them all erotic. And I'm convinced they bind us closer together than if there were no spankings.
“And the idea of a spanking from my wife had a real appeal to me. When I first went over her knee, I thought it would be interesting and fun, but in fact was stunned by the pain my sweet little wife inflicted.”
DeleteTom, your observation about being “stunned by the pain” really resonates with me. I have known since early childhood that spankings hurt, so you would think I could never be surprised by pain. But I also began to eroticize spanking at an early age, and being spanked has been my favourite masturbation fantasy forever. That means that I have developed a strong association between the idea of being spanked and sexual pleasure. The result is that I never cease to be surprised by the reality of the pain, and the total absence of pleasure, when my wife spanks me. You would think that with all my memories of spankings that hurt, I could never be surprised. But the reality of the pain is like a new discovery every single time. And based on the spankings other guys describe here, and a couple I got from a professional disciplinarian, my wife’s spankings aren’t even that harsh.
Doug
About Consensual Non Consent --
ReplyDeleteFrom some comments, I suspect many of us feel we have more “consensual” veto power over getting spanked than we actually do have at the moment of a spanking. In both of my DD relationships, my actual capacity to defy her about a spanking that she really wanted to administer was minimal -maybe none. My ability to defy her is roughly inversely proportional to the number of punishment spankings she has given me.
Think about this: once she knows you need spankings, and she has already spanked you for real discipline, she knows she can spank you if she is determined to do so-and her power to do this just increases over time. I have not talked about this directly with my wife. But I remember it coming up with my former GF. She acknowledged that she might not always be able to control me when we were (physically) apart. But she said something like this: “When we are together, I know I can absolutely control your ass, and there is nothing you can do about it. “
She was right. The control, of course, is not physical but psychological, and it increases every time you submit to a spanking. I think a part of us wants to believe we can defy her if “I really wanted to. “But try It the next time she tells you a punishment spanking is coming. You can delay and even beg, but you can’t really stop it. You can’t stop it because you really don’t want to -and because the price of defying her is not a price you can afford.
Alan
Alan, I think our ability to defy may also be proportional to the length of the relationship, regardless of how long DD has been a part of it or how many punishment spankings one has received during that time. For me, it feels like defying someone I'm in a long-term relationship with would be much harder than in a newer less-established relationship.
DeleteIt occurs to me that in many of the stories in the DWC, the DD aspect of the relationship was introduced well after the relationship began. And, even if the man initiated the DD relationship, the stories often revolve around the wife enforcing her authority and giving a spanking over his vigorous objections. Nothing really backs up her authority in that instance, other than force of will and the deference that may build up over the course of an entire relationship.
There is, of course, the well worn stereotype of the henpecked middle-aged male, but I do think it's pretty common that men do become less willing to get into a test of wills with their wives the longer they've been together, regardless of whether they are into DD.
Alan, I strongly agree with the following statements:
Delete“Think about this: once she knows you need spankings, and she has already spanked you for real discipline, she knows she can spank you if she is determined to do so-and her power to do this just increases over time.”
“She was right. The control, of course, is not physical but psychological, and it increases every time you submit to a spanking.”
You have stated succinctly a point I was trying to make: at the beginning of a DD relationship, as both partners are learning to navigate the terrain, spankings tend to be consensual. But after a while, if the woman embraces her authority, consent is no longer required. If the woman figures out the way we guys are wired and discovers that she can impose her will on us even when we put up resistance, the concept of consent will become meaningless.
I’m quite interested in the philosophy of mind, and I thought of a philosophical framing for the non consensual power dynamic. We tend to think of our “will” and of our “self” as unitary entities. I don’t think they are. It is possible for us to simultaneously “will” or to desire contrary things because the unitary self is illusory. That’s what I meant when I said that our wives can coerce us and *impose* discipline on us, even if we try to resist, because they can bypass our egos and enlist another part of our psyche as an ally. The philosopher Nietzsche said that there is an unknown “Self” who stands behind our conscious self and commands us. Centuries of Buddhist philosophy have also explored the idea that the unitary self is illusory. I think that is true.
With that in mind, imagine that your wife commands you to get ready for a spanking. In the moment, you want to resist because you know it is going to hurt physically, and it is going to hurt your pride. So you tell your wife that you don’t want a spanking and that it is unfair. Maybe you really mean it, you really don’t want to be spanked. If she wavers, she surrenders her disciplinary power. But if she says something like, “I don’t care what you want. Go to the bedroom and take your pants down. Now!” I don’t know about the rest of you guys, but I am unable to maintain resistance when my wife asserts herself that way. That’s because I am psychologically divided against myself. Well, maybe I’m overthinking it. But I definitely don’t FEEL as though my submission in such a circumstance is identical to consent.
Doug
“…The idea that the unitary self is illusory. I think that is true. “
DeleteModern neuroscience is moving toward the concept that many “persons” comprise a single human being. I think it's still possible to think of a “unitary self,” but it’s a hell of a lot more complicated than the free will advocates describe. One way to think about it may be that different aspects of us take over at different times. They are, in a sense, specialists, and when their “specialty” comes up, so do they.
Doug, you raise some other excellent points, and I want to get back to them when I have a bit more time.
Alan
Doug, you may or may not have noticed, I began this post with a Nietzsche quote. I've been a fan since college. I've also studied Buddhist and other eastern philosophies over a course of years. I think it's self-evidently true that our "self" is, as Alan say, a very complex thing. Though, I've also always felt the "the self is an illusion" is a point that often gets taken way too far by some casual Buddhists. If anything, given how much the inputs into our thinking and feeling change over time, it's honestly surprising to me just how stable our personalities and sense of one self are over time. And, while I'm not a psychologist, my understanding is that modern psychology has determined that a lot of our basic individual temperament is wired in from birth. I do think we make a mistake when we over-identify with our thoughts, but that's not quite the same as saying the self is nothing but an illusion. I do like Alan's analogy to a group of specialists. Unfortunately, one of mine specializes having philosophical discussions with a friend over too many beers at the local bar.
DeleteDan said: “I think our ability to defy may also be proportional to the length of the relationship, regardless of how long DD has been a part of it or how many punishment spankings one has received during that time.”
DeleteYou may be right. I have not been in a relationship that evolved into DD unless you count the probably three months or less that it took my former GF first to spank me. And we had been talking about it for weeks before it happened. (She showed up unannounced at my apartment with a paddle she had custom-made. I have written about that earlier, but it's still a vivid memory.) With my wife, it was DD from the start.
But I see your point about the length of the relationship limiting disciplinary defiance, while still holding on to the notion that every time one submits to a punishment spanking, the ability to defy her diminishes. In some ways, submitting becomes a habit, and habits are tough to break
Alan
Dan, like you I have been interested in Nietzsche since late adolescence, and I have also studied Buddhism and other eastern religions. I am, however, by no means a Buddhist, and I agree with you about some casual Buddhists applying the idea of “self as illusion” in a way that is too facile. There is indeed a great deal of continuity in our personalities, as you say. The psychological power our wives are able to wield over us once they figure out how guys like us are wired is real because our wiring is permanent.
DeleteSince beginning talk therapy, I have also rediscovered an interest in Freudian psychoanalysis. My therapist is neither a psychoanalyst nor a Freudian, but she agrees that Freud had interesting ideas, even if most contemporary psychologists reject them as “unscientific”. I know that Freud’s division of the psyche into Id, Ego, and Superego doesn’t describe real entities. But I think the idea of our ego being torn between the id (our instinctual drives) and the superego (the internalized societal mores that restrain us) is interesting as a metaphor. Extending that metaphor, I sometimes like to think of my wife armed with hairbrush or paddle as an external manifestation of the superego.
Doug
“But I see your point about the length of the relationship limiting disciplinary defiance, while still holding on to the notion that every time one submits to a punishment spanking, the ability to defy her diminishes. In some ways, submitting becomes a habit, and habits are tough to break”.
DeleteAlan, your comment suggests a whole other psychological paradigm for thinking about this: Skinnerian behaviourism. Habits. Conditioned responses. After a while, consent no longer has to be negotiated because we have been conditioned through repetition to submit and our wives have been conditioned to expect submission.
Doug
Conditioned response is real, but Skinner will take us only so far. And he himself took behaviorism too far. He saw it as all there was, and the environment explained all behavior. We are much more complex figures than Skinner believed. That said, years of obeying your wife and submitting to her discipline probably does become a conditioned response for some.
DeleteAlan
Doug and Alan : You're right ! Both. Courandair.
DeleteA conditioned response of submitting to her is also enhanced by the rituals we practice and the agreements we make r.e.DD. Maintenance spankings certainly reinforce her authority and serve to normalize the ongoing practice of her spanking me. She enjoys reminding me when one is coming up.
ReplyDeleteWe don’t practice maintenance spankings, but I imagine if they were regular and administered in a disciplinary context (i.e., not funisment), they would have a powerful reinforcing impact on her exercise of authority, both during discipline and also in everyday life. Looking back on it, I would advise any couple still new to DD to consider using maintenance speaking at least for a while. It probably would accelerate each partner's adaptation to their new relationship dynamic.
DeleteWhile handing out unsolicited advice, I will mention the close cousin of maintenance spanking, which is “preventative” spanking, or as some have called it, “prophylactic spanking.” As I have experienced, this is a disciplinary spanking close before an event, a trip, or a party that historically has produced punishable behavior in the past. The object of the preventative is to both anticipate and prevent the behavior. It seems unfair, but I expect most guys who are subject to it would agree that it actually works. A wife or girlfriend doesn’t need to endure the bad behavior because the bad behavior doesn’t occur. And you avoid what would very likely be a very unpleasant spanking after the event, trip, or party
Alan
Interesting point about preventative spanking, Alan. My wife doesn’t do maintenance spankings, but she has on a couple of occasions given me preventative spankings for the precise reason you mention: as a warning to watch my mouth and my temper if we are going to attend some event where there is a high risk that there will be heated political arguments. They work. But these days, there is another consideration that keeps my mouth in check at such gatherings. Obviously, she would never spank me publicly, but I am not entirely sure she wouldn’t publicly shame me with a threat. I say that because as we get older, she seems to be less inhibited about saying things that might raise eyebrows.
DeleteDoug
Yes, at least anecdotally, it seems women in female-led DD relationships become less inhibited about publicly expressing their authority as they age. My wife is still pretty private but willing to discuss her practices with very close friends and family. She spanked me several times while her sister was present (in our home). I am comfortable with this. But if she publicly alluded to spanking me or made it obvious, I would find it very embarrassing.
DeleteAlan
"Obviously, she would never spank me publicly . . ."
DeleteI don't know how long you were a lurker here before deciding to join in, Doug, but we've had an intermittent commenter who calls himself KOJ, who felt the same way until his wife unexpectedly took him out of a party and spanked him in a bedroom while the party was going on. His wife had affirmatively agreed she would not spank him in public, but it turned out that she interpreted that as people seeing, not overhearing, the spanking. He too said his wife became much less inhibited as they grew older, particularly after she retired.
I seriously doubt my wife would ever spank in public regardless of how it is defined, but I've learned overtime that you just never know how people are going to grow and change . . .
I just had an uncomfortable thought about this topic. It seems that most of us feel that the disciplinary spankings we get from our wives do not require our consent on a case by case basis. And most of us seem to be okay with that. But what if we were talking about M/f domestic discipline instead of F/m? If my wife was the one who wanted disciplinary spankings, I would spank her. (I have often joked to my wife that it’s a shame the polarity of our relationship wasn’t reversed because she has such a sexy, spankable bottom). But I have to say, if I was the disciplinarian in our house, I would want to be sure of her explicit consent every time I spanked her. Is it hypocritical of me to view the issue of consent differently when the DD is M/f instead of F/m in orientation?
ReplyDeleteDoug
I don't think it's hypocritical. Rather, it's a conditioned response based on generations of mothers and fathers telling their rambunctious sons, "You don't hit girls." It's also just a recognition of the very real physical power differences between the sexes.
DeleteI used to have a very strongly negative reaction to the idea of M/d disciplinary spankings. I knew it wasn't totally rational, and one could argue it was a condescending form of paternalism, infantalizing the choices of adult women.
I've come a long way. The turning point for me was making friends with a female blogger who is in a M/f dynamic and reading many of the female comments in a group she ran for a while. Talking to her in particular showed me just how much her DD desires were exactly like my own. Like me, she's the primary breadwinner in the family. (She's a very successful adult romance writer. Her books have a lot of spanking and strong D/s elements.) Like me, she can be headstrong and domineering. Like me, she often regrets her own excesses and desires to be reined in. Like me, the overall relationship is consensual, but her husband doesn't ask for express permission every time before a disciplinary spanking. In short, both her reasons for wanting DD and her implementation of those desires was virtually identical to mine.
I think, with the very best of intentions, we men can sometimes bring biases to these things that marginalize and limit female autonomy.
I agree that accepting a wife's authority to spank becomes a kind of "conditioned response" over the years. Not only that, a refusal to accept one would be a very destabilizing event in a marriage. I have occasionally argued that punishment was not deserved, but have always submitted when she failed to agree. Refusing would violate our established practice and would be harmful to our relationship.
DeleteDOUG'S COMMENT ON DISCIPLINE AND THE MIND DIVIDED AGAINST THE SELF
ReplyDeleteDoug wrote: “But if she says something like, 'I don’t care what you want. Go to the bedroom and take your pants down. Now!” I don’t know about the rest of you guys, but I am unable to maintain resistance when my wife asserts herself that way. That’s because I am psychologically divided against myself. “
Doug
Another way to think about it is that you are acting in your best interest in the long term, despite the short-term discomfort. You are also by your inability to defy her, ultimately getting precisely what you want and need -which is a loving partner which gives you guard rails and real consequences for bumping into them—and in addition is allowing you to stop holding on to your fear of authority and let go to her authority and guidance – authority and guidance make you feel loved and safe- and to let go to who you are and become the best version of that self.
Much of my life, I was a rebel against authority (and I still abhor arbitrary authority and abuse of power abuse of power). But I have come to understand that I had an equally strong need to submit to authority and learn to obey when it was appropriate. It was a real, if unconscious, need. Disobedience to authority just for the sake of being a rebel cost me a lot. But being able to submit to my wife’s authority and trusting her has helped me to learn that not all authority is destructive and not all disobedience is good. I both needed and (unconsciously) wanted to learn to obey and submit to loving authority. My wife has filled that need more completely than I ever expected.
But back to your allusion to the unitary self and being “psychologically divided” against oneself. Some might view acceptance of sometimes severe punishment as “masochistic”. But that seems a very superficial view of the punishment dynamic most of us have or seek. Yes, we are punished, experience real pain, and sometimes deep embarrassment, and we accept that and often seek it. But it is in no way against our interests or welfare to do that, for the benefits we receive in return are uncountable multiples of the price we pay for obeying her and accepting discipline when she thinks it appropriate.
So Doug, I am saying that your inability to defy her is not a failure of will on your part or evidence of some deep psychological conflict -- but instead evidence that your will is in control, willing you to do what is best for you (despite the temporary costs). When you cannot defy her, celebrate that -because it means you are doing the best for yourself and her.
Alan
Disobedience to authority just for the sake of being a rebel cost me a lot."
DeleteSame here, in spades.