“And oftentimes we consider pains superior to pleasures when submission to the pains for a long time brings us as a consequence a greater pleasure.” — Epicurus
Hello all. Welcome back to the Disciplinary Couples Club. Our weekly meeting of men and women who are in, or interested in being in, Domestic Discipline and/or Female Led (FLR) relationships.
Once again, before we get started, I would like to extend a specific invitation to any of our female readers, if they still exist, to move from “lurker” to “commenter” status. We miss having you around.
We had a good discussion last
week, even if it was a narrow topic, about a particular piece of DWC fiction. Thank you to “al.” for giving us the
background on his Even More story. It was a good learning experience for me, even though I've read the story a dozen times, as I didn’t realize until last week that he wrote it before
he had experienced a real-life DD spanking.
I did enjoy some of the back-and-forth about the “toilet seat” aspect of the story. I seem to be in the minority in not having that much sympathy for our wives on this one. This meme sums up my own attitude pretty well:
As noted in the post, I’ve always loved the Even More story, in part because a lot of it reflects my own DD origins, including all the atmosphere around finding the DWC, being morbidly fascinated by the DD concept, bringing it reluctantly to one’s wife, the thrill (or relief) of her agreeing to it, quickly followed by terror at the reality of her agreeing to it.
However, what the story doesn’t
address is the “why.” Why did David have
that craving for extremely painful punishment spankings? Why was that craving not nipped in the bud
after that first DD spanking taught him the difference between the fantasy and
the reality? Why did he know he wouldn't walk away from it even though Susan had told him he could?
In reflecting on the story, TG had some of those “why” questions:
I certainly recognize some parallels to myself in the story. Like many on this blog, I discovered the DWC website twenty plus years ago, but as I remember, I never really spent any time in the fiction section, so I haven’t read this before. It does however get me thinking about one of my perennial conundrums. A real disciplinary spanking is a very painful experience and couldn’t be described as “fun” or “play.” Yet the emotional or physiological need for it far outweighs the unpleasantness of actually receiving it. Yes, I know, it lets us move on with the air cleared and so on, but I’ve never really been able to understand my own need for this, which I know goes far beyond just wanting to clear the air and move on. My impression is that others may have a similar lack of self-understanding. This could almost be a discussion subject in itself, if you could find a coherent way to launch it.
TB comes at it from the opposite angle, accepting the reality without asking the “why”:
“GH writes about being obsessed with the ‘why’ - I gave up on this a long time ago and just accept that it ‘is’ the way I am. I believe that most if not all people have some sort of so called ‘kink’. Some embrace it & put it to positive use (as many on the site do). Others repress with often damaging consequences. Others are afflicted with socially unacceptable ‘kinks’. What we do is consensual and my ‘vanilla’ wife has accepted & embraced my spanking interest to positively impact our relationship.”
Yet, that doesn’t make the answer irrelevant. Like many, I am my own favorite topic of inquiry. I’m endlessly curious about what makes me tick.
Moreover, my wife is curious about what makes me tick. Maybe her knowing the "why" shouldn't make much practical difference, yet it kind of does.
In the past, her unanswered questions about the “why” of my DD desires made her tentative about fully committing to her role. She says she went years without fully committing to it in her head because she couldn't understand why any man would want this and, thus, she always had a nagging suspicion that I would decide I didn’t want it anymore and would pull out.
TG’s question also isn’t just the typical “origin” inquiry about how we each got here. It also invites those who receive very harsh spankings to think about not just why we had that initial desire for DD, but how that desire remains and even grows after we’ve experienced the reality of spankings that we really, truly would like to avoid. I don’t think “David” in the Even More story has a real answer to that question. I know I don’t. I know that I crave discipline. I know that I crave a maternal-style hierarchy. I know that I want her to be strict and consistent.
But, why do I want any of that, especially knowing what I know about how all those things really feel in the moment? After twenty years of self-reflection, I still don't know.
The Disciplinary Wives Club philosophy itself seems to be agnostic on the “why” question. Aunt Kay offered this piece of advice regarding the attitude the wives should take when their husbands were over their knees:
If you feel the least bit sorry for him during all this, remember, a submissive man does not want a weak or lenient woman. He wants someone very strict and dominant. If he wanted anything different, he wouldn’t be over your knees in the first place. This isn’t a small child you are holding over your lap by force — this is a grown man who needs and wants a hard spanking. Give it to him and pay no attention to his cries for mercy. The longer and harder you spank, the more he will love you for it.
Aunt Kay and those who contributed to the DWC assumed that the husbands wanted the lifestyle even if they hated the spankings. But, I don’t think anything on the DWC website answers the “why.”
There were a couple of large polls posted on the DWC website, with granular analysis of the participants’ histories and motivations. But, there were some problems, in my opinion, with the structure of those polls, including that while there were several questions (directed to both Disciplinary Wives and disciplined husbands) about their relationships with their mothers, their relationships with their fathers went almost wholly unexplored. p
That’s a mistake, in my opinion, and interesting in its own right. Why the automatic assumption that it's our relationships with our mothers, and not our fathers, that feeds the latent DD interest? Maybe just the pervasive Freudian interest that has since been widely criticized?
Personally, I suspect that my relationship with my (step)-father was a necessary
ingredient in the psychological recipe that led to by DD interest. I have no real idea why I became so obsessed
with DD and attracted to FLR, but I think it’s probably some combination of:
- a mother with a strong but erratic personality
- a (step)-father who also had a very strong personality and
was very anti-authoritarian and confrontational
- a permissive teenage environment in which the lack of rules paradoxically led to feelings of overwhelming personal responsibility
- growing up in areas of the country where corporal punishment was very prevalent
- my inborn personality/temperament that gravitates toward both achievement and risk-taking
Putting it all together, I was
born with a personality and temperament that embraced risk-taking and unrestrained behavior. Yet, I'm also very goal-oriented. I undoubtedly modeled my
father’s anti-authoritarianism and aggressive, risk-taking behavior. But, I get pissed at myself when those behavioral tendencies lead me to "step on my own dick" or make it harder to achieve my goals. My mother’s personality was strong enough
that she could have imposed some checks and balances, but her own behavior was
erratic and, by my teenage years, she had more or less given up on imposing rules
or holding me accountable for anything. So, I exited my teen-age years a risk-taker and anti-authoritarian who nevertheless had a strong sense of responsibility and a need for achievement but lacked parental discipline to mitigate the risk-taking and support the goal-achievement.
Of course, while some of that may offer insights into my DD origins, none of it really answers even the origin question, let alone why DD has remained so attractive to me even after I’ve experienced hundreds of very, very painful sessions. A partial answer may be that, while some of my motivations are subconscious, I also consciously know and accept that I need the guardrails that DD provides and that, being a grown man, a certain amount of harshness is required for me to get the message we both know I need.
I also don't know why it suddenly became "a thing" for me in my late 30s. Maybe the tension between the goal-orientation and my recognition that lack of personal discipline was frustrating those goals, and impacting my personal relationships, had to reach some threshold level. And, the universe working the way it does, the DWC came along just as my angst at my own behavior started to boil over.
There is a Zen saying that is apropos: "When the heart is ready, the teacher will come." In a very real sense, Aunt Kay and Jerry were the teachers I found at the point I was finally open to their lessons.
So, unlike TB, I am still curious about origins and the "why" question, though the sheer variety of experiences we bring to this convinces me that I'll probably never find "the" reason for any of this. I'm endlessly fascinated by the fact that we all come to this lifestyle from such different backgrounds, including some who were subject to strict discipline as kids and some who weren't. Some went to schools where corporal punishment was prevalent. Some didn't. Some had strong, disciplinary mothers or fathers. Some didn't.
For the wives, I don’t know whether it makes sense to ask the “why” question at all if we’re talking about what drives them to adopt the lifestyle, given that in most cases they weren’t driven to it at all. Rather, they initially accommodated their husbands' wants and needs but found that doing so also benefitted them.
But, KOJ recently suggested a topic question that I think dovetails nicely with the discussion above, namely:
What are the benefits of DD for the wife that she has spoken of, and what are the additional benefits for the wife -- as perceived by the spanked husband -- that she has NOT spoken of (and how the husband has identified those unspoken benefits).
For some possible answers to what the benefits may be, instead of answering the question again for myself, I’d recommend people read this article, which was mentioned in a couple of comments from last week and apparently was written by JR’s Dev. I didn’t realize they had a website focused on F/m domestic relations and encourage all of you to check it out.
Regarding KOJ’s distinction between the benefits we think our wives get versus those they say they get, interestingly, most of Anne’s comments about the benefits she gets hinge not on relationship things like “cleaning the slate” and ending arguments but, rather, on her perceptions of her own power vis-à-vis me. She likes telling me to get ready for a spanking and watching me comply. She likes ordering me to do things, but the part she really likes is watching me struggle with my desire to tell her fuck off and do it herself. She likes that I don’t like being bossed around and that I struggle to submit. She likes making me nervous about what she might do with an “anytime, anywhere, for any reason” grant of open-ended authority.
That all serves to explain why her inability to intuit why I would want this kind of relationship inhibited her ability to fully commit to it. The power dynamics in her favor are her biggest perceived benefit, yet the shift in our power dynamic is precisely what would be yanked out from under her if I were to decide that my unknown “why” no longer outweighs the downside of extremely hard spankings.
I know many of the long-term commenters have answered, or tried to answer, these “why” questions before, but I hope you’ll give us the benefits of your wisdom again. And, I invite the Disciplinary Wives to weigh in on any of this and tell us in their own words what benefits they get from DD.
I hope you all have a great week.
After growing up in a home with real consequences for my actions and then leaving home as an adult. I found that there was little to keep me in line. I would go out drinking and partying to all hours. I would slack off at home and not do anything to clean up, etc. I lived week to week working and partying and the partying evenually took a toll on my health and work. I needed some direction and someone to set me on the right path, so when I met my then girl friend, I decided that to keep her I'd have to shape up. That's when I asked her to help me. She thought that I needed consequences for my actions again, as I told her I had growing up, so she told me to make a wooden paddle that she'd use on me whenever my behaviour dipped or when she thought I needed it. That was years ago and now as my wife she makes sure that I'm on the straight and narrow, because when I step out of line, the paddle is taken off it's hook in the kitchen and I earn another glowing bottom. I am much happier now and have a great job and a better life thanks to my beautiful wife and our F.L.R.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous, I don't mean to be rude, but I think this is the third time I've asked you to use a name with your posts. I appreciate your participation and would like it to continue, but I'm going to start deleting any comment that doesn't have a name or initials identifying it.
DeleteSorry, I'm not that savvy with computers,etc.
ReplyDeleteLike you Dan I have no clue when being on the receiving end of a spanking appealed to me or why.
ReplyDeleteI've always been a spanking enthusiast but it was always as the spanker.
In fact the thought of a man being spanked by a woman was almost repulsive to me.
When a girlfriend suggested I should be spanked if she got spanked I vehemently refused to be spanked by her.
Somehow , like you in my thirties, this all changed and I found myself on the receiving end of spankings...pretty much a 360 degree turn.
I wonder if it's perhaps because I had a high powered job with lots of responsibility and my wife instinctively taking the lead with matters at home and with the kids.
It may have been a relief to have my wife take charge instead of me , and I must confess my behaviour did require correction so perhaps being more mature I finally realized this.
while a bit hesitant at first , my wife took to , and enjoyed disciplining me and taking charge.
I Don't think there was a defining moment that triggered this reversal other than stories or accounts of FM spanking were more prevalentand began appealing to me enough to give it a try.
"I must confess my behaviour did require correction so perhaps being more mature I finally realized this." I suspect this is the key reason these relationships seem not to arise much for people in their 20s. The male generally has to reach a level of maturity that allows him to realize, and admit to himself, what it is he needs.
DeleteI believe our wives also need to reach a level of maturity to assume the role of our disciplinarian, and becoming a Mother gives them the maternal instinct to discipline their Husband.
DeleteProbably true.
DeleteHaving grown up with few boundaries and the temperment of a rebel, the idea of being held accountable has always been attractive to me. I had many women over my knee, in the hopes that one would suggest turning the tables on me, but that never happened. I married a woman that seemingly enjoyed both sides of the paddle, but it turned out that she didn't really want a submissive man, and I was always frustrated. Finally, she suggested I go to a pro, and I finally discovered what a real adult spanking feels like. It was a major stress relief, but there was no emotional involvement, so ultimately, not satisfying. Eventually, my wife and I split up, and I finally found a woman open to the idea of taking me in hand. Before we met, she had never even heard of adult spanking. As far as the "why" I crave this, it seems I fall into the category of those who simply accept the fact that they need consistent and firm discipline. This happened after a lifetime of wishing I wasn't wired that way, but finally completely accepting that I was. As I've said before, I would have been a lot happier and more stable if this happened earlier in my life, but at least I am finally happy now.
ReplyDelete"As I've said before, I would have been a lot happier and more stable if this happened earlier in my life, but at least I am finally happy now." I don't know whether I would have been open to it, had I discovered the DWC earlier. As I said in the post, I think it came along at a point where I was able to admit I needed it, and my wife was at least open to it. I'm not sure whether those conditions could have existed at an earlier point in my life. What I do wish would have come earlier is the kind of control Anne is seemingly starting to embrace now, imposing her will more strongly and consistently.
DeleteMaybe we are looking at this slightly the wrong way? From my experience it's the enjoyment that answers the why and it explains how all the other stuff, wanting more, looking for maternal elements, behavioural improvements (as temporary as they all), connecting with the past, role-play, the therapeutic element and identifying as a spanko(e) comes into play. Those all are the interconnectivity of my needs and desires, my drive and my choices. Some call it kink, I prefer discovery. When you get so much pleasure from the mildest spanking and equally from the thrashing that scares your bottom for two weeks why becomes a obvious no-brainer. Cheers GLM.
ReplyDeleteGLM, I think about this the same way you do: the reason we submit to the pain/embarrassment/disempowerment of DD/FLR is that it gives us some kind of “enjoyment” that makes it desirable. For myself, I explain it as a sexual kink.
DeleteGH
I do agree that there is some type of psycho-sexual dynamic involved in our desire to be spanked husbands - as witnessed by the fact that none of us ever want a sound spanking immediately after an orgasm. :) --al
DeleteI can see how that makes sense for some where the kink is very centered on the spanking itself. It wouldn't explain much for me, as I don't get "pleasure" per se out of any punishment/discipline spanking, and mild spankings don't do anything for me.
DeleteDan, I don’t think that for me the kink is centred on the spanking itself. For me spanking symbolizes, in a primal (sexual) way, a power hierarchy. My kink is being turned on by a power exchange. That’s different, I believe, than a true “spanking fetish” in which the act itself is erotic, whether done as real discipline or as erotic play. Since my kink concerns power rather than spanking itself, play spankings don’t do much for me. In other words, purely “erotic” spanking is actually less erotic than real disciplinary spanking. I need it to be real. For that reason, some punishments other than spanking also appeal to my kink. For instance, on spanking websites, one occasionally encounters pictures of people having their mouths washed out with soap. My wife has never done that to me, and I am sure I would find it unpleasant, but I have an erotic response to images of mouth soaping that feels similar to my response to spanking. I also have an erotic response to being scolded, whether combined with spanking or on its own.
DeleteI would also say that for me it is not the harshness of a spanking that makes it “real”. To me a spanking is real when it is being done for the purpose of discipline, even if it is so mild that my face gets redder than my bum. In that context, even a mild spanking has power because it expresses a power hierarchy. That being said, I understand guys who need a spanking to be severe to feel real.
A formative spanking experience for me took place when I was 14 or 15 and I spent a few weeks in the home of a girl cousin who was the same age as me. I wasn’t attracted to my cousin, but there was something like sibling rivalry between us that created a stimulating power dynamic. We were on our own most of the day, so we played games. Because of our rivalry, both of us were poor losers and ungracious winners. As winners we would gloat, and as losers we would get pissed off. Thus, the games were a kind of power struggle resulting in feelings of triumph for the winner and humiliation for the loser. That gave me the idea of heightening the power struggle by proposing that the winner could give the loser an OTK spanking. My cousin accepted without hesitation. She didn’t look happy when she lost the first game, but she accepted her spanking. Her bottom wasn’t bared for that first spanking, but when I proposed to up the ante by making the spankings more “real” (i.e., on the bare bottom, the way we had both been spanked as kids), she agreed immediately once again. I was the first to get it on the bare, and I will never forget how she gloated. It felt so humiliating yet so exciting. We both got spanked several times over a period of a couple of weeks. Neither of us spanked in a way that really hurt. I think we only used our hands. But it didn’t have to hurt to be effective. It was like a ritual humiliation of the loser by the winner. But I imagine that if our game hadn’t come to an end, we would probably have upped the ante further by increasing the physical pain and incorporating implements, like the razor strap that hung on a hook in the woodshed.
GH
GH, I agree there probably is a difference between a true spanking fetish and being turned on by reordering of the power hierarchy. For me, the compulsion toward DD is probably more about the latter, though the two are obviously intertwined, as demonstrated by the fact that there are lots of ways my wife could choose to assert authority that wouldn't be something that would turn me on in any way, while spanking seems to be somewhat unique in the extent to which, as an expression of her power, it pushes those buttons. For me, both the power exchange and the spanking are necessary elements of the response I have to DD. I don't, however, think either of them rise to the level of a real fetish for me. I have a strong sexualized interest in both, but neither define sexuality for me.
Delete>Dan wrote: " I have a strong sexualized interest in both, but neither define sexuality for me."<
DeleteI resonate with this statement as well. While I do identify a psycho-sexual dynamic in the the spanking / power exchange relationship, for me - it is much more psychological. I have never been one to have an erection prior to being spanked, but at the same time, I realize that there is a certain sexual context and tension involved. (Again -as evidenced by how any thought of the desirability of a spanking vanishes at orgasm. And - I do occasionally find that a good F/M spanking story can be arousing to some degree). Like Dan, I do find that the scenario needs to include both power exchange and spanking to arouse the feel of eroticism. Case in point - While I do often find F/M spanking pics to be sexually appealing, I don't really find M/F spanking pics to be particularly hot, and I think that is probably because they don't imply the power exchange that F/M pics do (for me, anyway). -al
My reactions to spanking pics are pretty varied. F/m typically are the "hottest" to me, yet when it comes to spanking drawings I feel like the typical depictions of the recipients' reactions are very flat or lack anything resembling realistic emotions. Both drawings and pictures of M/f spankings tend to convey more real emotion on the part of the recipient, and that seems to play a big part in how "hot" I find them. M/m scenarios I typically do not find very hot, and I think it's for the reason you identify -- they don't typically imply an obvious hierarchy or power exchange. Though, I can get turned on by them the more that the spanking seems to be imposed on the recipient by a much more dominant spanker.
DeleteI have lately found an info that in many cases craving for domestic discipline is cauaed by ADHD. People with ADHD benefit hugely from external control and external authority. I think this might be my case.
ReplyDeleteHi "YMM":
DeleteI have held a similar theory regarding myself for many (+30) years. A little too complicated to explain my own circumstanced, or my own wide-ranging observations, in this limited space; maybe later.
I've searched for any published or anecdotal evidence that such ADHD might be present in a disproportionate percentage of other DD practitioners (e.g., Moderator Dan), so far without success. It might certainly (partly) explain some of the most common reasons why we "get in trouble" and/or "ask for DD help" in resolving: Verbal impulsivity, lack of planning, lack of follow through with important tasks, procrastination, etc. . . all commonly seen "symptoms" in individuals with EITHER DD or ADHD. This might also help explain Alan's repeated observations and expositions of an apparent "spanking gene" underlying and partly explaining the wide range of our backgrounds (lack of other common antecedents); ADHD is most certainly more common in families, and many cases can be traced to variations in the genes that control dopamine receptors and transporters in the brain.
Obviously, ADHD cannot be "all explaining," as the interactions between the husband and wife are so important. In addition, it is well recognized that the prevalence of DD recipients is very, VERY heavily "skewed" toward females; but females are much, MUCH less likely to be diagnosed with ADHD (even accounting for possible bias against "boyhood rowdiness" in our school systems). Different relative mechanisms / formative experiences between the genders?
So, I'm very curious, "YMM," can you direct me to this "info" where some others have made such observations or hypotheses?
-- Thanks
I grew up at a time and place where / when ADHD hadn’t been “invented.” I was well into adulthood before I ever heard of it. However, thinking back to that time, I would have to say I see symptoms of it in myself as a child. I’m not convinced the correlation is anything other than coincidence but I fall into the positive side of both these metrics. I think you’re right that the majority of spanking is Mf rather than Fm but i think this is more sexual than real DD. I did dig around on the internet a couple of years or so ago (when i found this blog in fact) and it seemed to me that the vast majority of the DD related references I found were not only Mf but were religious, following what I suppose might be regarded as a strict interpretation of the man as the head of the household and the woman as little more than an owned slave. I don’t think that this says anything about the interest of these women in being on the receiving end of DD, just about their religious views. TG
Delete"However, thinking back to that time, I would have to say I see symptoms of it in myself as a child." Same here.
DeleteI don't have enough visibility in the Christian DD stuff (I've intentionally stayed away from it) to have an opinion on the extent to which the recipients are really into it and how much of their desire is based on religious beliefs, versus some kind of kink or fetish. It could be they are just following what they've been told is a religious injunction, but let's face it, people find religious justifications for all sorts of beliefs and desires.
My interest in spanking is innate, but my interest in the accountability aspect of domestic discipline is related to ADD.
DeleteMy ADD also keeps me searching for reading material about others practicing DD. :)
When I was a kid in school, nobody talked about ADD or ADHD. Behaviour that we now see as characteristic of those conditions was simply considered “misbehaviour”. Consequently, I believe that many of the kids who got spanked or strapped in school probably had ADHD. I specifically remember a boy in grade one getting an OTK spanking in front of the class because he couldn’t sit still.
DeleteGH
MW, I'm glad your ADD led you here. :-)
DeleteGH, you're probably right that there would be a high correlation between those who got spanked often as kids and what today would be diagnosed as ADD had that term been a "thing" when I was growing up. That might give me more concern were it not for the case that I'd probably point to ADD as the poster-child for psychology increasingly pathologizing normal aspects of human behavior, particularly in boys.
DeleteGood point about pathologizing normal aspects of human behaviour. On the other hand, one could argue that ADD and ADHD is common enough that it could be considered somewhat normal, especially in boys. I also think that ADD/ADHD aren’t clear cut conditions that either you have or not. Like most things in nature, they exist on a spectrum. Some evolutionary psychologists also believe that aspects of cognitive diversity that cause difficulties in modern schools may have been useful in premodern times. I think I may have ADD to some extent, though it wasn’t strong enough to prevent me from doing well in school. I think we know enough about cognitive diversity now to know that paddling kids who have trouble conforming to rigid classroom protocols was a very crude method of behaviour modification that frequently didn’t work.
DeleteGH
"I think we know enough about cognitive diversity now to know that paddling kids who have trouble conforming to rigid classroom protocols was a very crude method of behaviour modification that frequently didn’t work."
DeletePossibly, though the fact that something frequently didn't work doesn't say anything about whether it also frequently did. And, given the state of both behavioral problems in American classrooms, declining academic achievement, and spiking rates of anxiety, depression and suicidal ideation in American children, it's hard to say that whatever replaced the discipline we grew up with is any better and, in fact, seems to be worse. If corporal punishment was the bane of childhood mental health that many argue it was, at some point it is on those people to explain how the mental health situation has deteriorated to the extent it has given that corporal punishment is now virtually gone from American schools. I'm neither an opponent or proponent of corporal punishment, but I do think the studies on the effects of corporal punishment are riddled with obvious errors and methodological problems and, moreover, at some point the proof of the pudding is in the eating, and the opponents don't have much to offer on that front.
I think the problems you list are driven by social and economic factors that are too vast and complex to be blamed on a lack of corporal punishment. You are probably right that the research cited by opponents of corporal punishment has weaknesses. But there is no evidence supporting the pedagogical utility of corporal punishment that I am aware of.
DeleteGH.
You're right that there are all sorts of factors at play, though that's always the convenient excuse when a theory regarding human behavior turns out not to have any real predictive value, right? It's always that the theory may have been right but there were other, intervening factors at work. Ultimately, the difference between a theory and a fact is predictability. If the theory doesn't yield predictable outcomes, then it's just a narrative. Opponents of corporal punishment have loved to play up all the supposed ills connected to it, like lower test scores, lower lifetime earnings, higher rates of depression, etc. So, if you remove the supposed cause and the effects stay the same or get worse, then what can you do other than claim it's all just too complicated to expect the cause-and-effect narrative to hold up in real world conditions, even though all the advocacy around the issue sure as hell promoted a supposedly clear causal connection.
DeleteThough, I'm not really meaning to tee off on that one issue. I come from a liberal arts, social sciences background. It's taken me a lot of time to really internalize the difference between a narrative and a theory with predictive validity, but having that distinction now firmly in mind makes me very skeptical about a lot of the untestable stories disguised as scientific theories that come out of the social sciences.
Interesting coincidence -- after this discussion yesterday I watched several episodes of For All Mankind on AppleTV. There is a scene in which two mothers are called to the principal's office to discuss behavioral issues involving their two sons, who are best friends. One starts berating the principal about a change in the school's discipline policies, stating something to the effect of: "I understand you all have stopped paddling students. Well, my family sure believed in spanking. And, look at me - I became an astronaut!"
DeleteI certainly agree with all this. I prefer to use the term “hypotheses “to describe an untested or unproven theory and reserve theory for a body of knowledge that has some empirical support beyond conceptual reasoning. But your larger point: that mere correlation is not causation deserves emphasis. Personally, I would not spank a child. However, the science to support the ill effects of spanking is not yet proven. Too often these days, science is used to score ideological points rather than uncover or reveal real knowledge.
DeleteAlan
Over the holidays, I read a series of books, in very different genres, that emphasized the extent to which our minds are narrative-producing machines, that seem to be programmed to impose cause-and-effect stories on events that are really just random. It leads us into all sorts of problematic assumptions and rationalizations. It really did worm itself into my brain, though I think in a good way. One of them was The Black Swan, which got pretty popular a few years ago. Another was "Thinking, Fast and Slow" which has become a classic study on human decision-making -- it had some great insights though I found getting through it it be a a real slog.
Delete"Thinking, Fast and Slow" which has become a classic study on human decision-making "
DeleteThis is surely one of the best books in popular science/applied psychology in the past 50 years. Kahneman himself is a national asset. I read it for its insights into "intuitive intelligence" ( system one v system two ), a long ignored but increasingly trendy focus on how and why the unconscious makes so many good predictions and decisions so quickly
I believe he also goes into one of the more fascinating insights from cognitive science, describing how the left brain can "confabulate narrative" to explain " what happened" , stories that "explain" random evens" even when that part of the brain has no experiential data to guide it. We are left with the question of whether our narratives are often confabulations driven by our need to explain -rather than any valid explication of the actual events driving the narrative.
Alan
It definitely had some fascinating insights, backed up with real empirical data, though I admit I found it a slog to plod through all the very lengthy descriptions of the experiments and data analysis. I read Nassim Taleb's The Black Swan and Antifragile back to back. He cites Kahneman extensively, but I found him much more accessible, and practical, than Thinking, Fast and Slow.
DeleteIts the difference between primary sources and secondary. Kahneman was actually involved in much of the research he reports and applies. People that write about it, translate it and explicate it are extremely valuable in diffusing new knowledge. They are also usually skilled writers,But they are not primary sources.
DeleteIts the difference between reading a good historian and reading a biography written by a historical figure. That is one eason the Churchill's multi volumes have become so iconic. A historical figure writing good historical narrative has been rare.
Alan
As you say Dan, it’s difficult to tie this to nurture as against nature. My background couldn’t be more different from yours. I had a normal, middle class childhood. Very conventional parents but there is no way I would describe my mother as strong. A lawyer father who took his role seriously as a rule follower rather than a risk taker. And this was a time and place (east of the Atlantic) where there was no corporal punishment, at least not in the middle class community we were part of. The spanking interest came from inside and developed in my teens. I met my (second) wife through an early spanking website in 1999 but it was just a form of play. I’ve recounted this before but a year or so later she had discovered the DWC website and I said something one time that really upset her and that I regretted. I don’t remember which of us suggested a real disciplinary spanking as the way forward, but it was the right thing to do and we’ve never looked back. I guess to a degree this goes some way towards explaining the why, as we’ve said before, it assuages my guilt, works out her anger or upset, and lets us move past it. But I still don’t feel that it really covers it. Seeing the number of references over time by various people to maintenance spankings and knowing my own craving from time to time for some misdeed that I’m not aware of to be noticed I think makes it clear that this goes beyond the benefits we have been able to define. TG
ReplyDeleteTG, I suspect your experience, with a need driven from "inside" that develops in the teenage years, is a lot more common than mine. I seem to be an anomaly when it comes to developing a spanking interest much later than that.
DeleteI do think that the putative benefits of DD drove a lot of my interest, but you're right that they don't explain it on their own.
Great topic, indeed. Why would any of us want to be in a situation where we routinely have to endure the very real physical pain of having our bare behinds set on fire by a determined disciplinarian wielding a wooden paddle, leather strap, or cane (etc). Especially after we learn how different the reality of such a spanking is from our previous fantasies. Why do we keep coming back for more - when the truth is we could all opt out of the arrangement if we really wanted to?
ReplyDeleteI'm sure I don't know the answer - and perhaps, while there may be common themes, the answer is probably somewhat different for all of us. As I have shared here before, I believe that my interest in F/M DD was triggered by an OTK hairbrushing that an attractive aunt gave me at the age of ten - a spanking, that while terrifying at the time, eventually morphed into a sexual fantasy as I entered puberty. This interest was reinforced when a kinky older woman that I briefly dated in my late teens gave me a bare bottom paddling. While she only spanked me once - as she preferred to bottom and just wanted to "demonstrate"- the memory of that spanking remained vivid for many years to come.
But, in retrospect, I wonder if the spanking by the kinky older lady would have sparked an interest in F/M DD if the much earlier spanking by my aunt had not done so during puberty. Perhaps - perhaps not – I can’t say that I really know. And - I wonder if the interest would have been there at all if neither of these two events had occurred.
Regardless, the interest never went away. It mostly remained just in the back of my mind - although I did occasionally pick up a spanking mag at the adult book store , even a VHS video once (kept carefully hidden). Finally, though - the Net came online for the general public - along with volumes of spanking stories on the old Usenet, and then later the early websites - and most critically the DWC site. It was probably this deluge of readily available spanking material (stories, articles, pics) that took me to the point where (with the help of some liquid courage), I was finally able to reveal the desire to my wife – twenty odd years after that spanking by my kinky friend.
That fateful night, when - induced by too much wine - I shared my ongoing fantasy of being spanked with my wife - who, also feeling a bit liberated by a few glasses of wine, promptly obliged me - a playful spanking that led very quickly to a full on DWC marriage. The question remains, however- would the interest have been there at all without at least one of those two spankings in my youth. Would it have surfaced anyway, perhaps triggered by some random event or exposure along the way? I really have no clue.
She loved the idea from the very start - and after going through the DWC site the next morning (at my suggestion) - she gave me my first real DWC style spanking that afternoon - a good hundred whacks of a hairbrush on my bare bottom that reduced me to tears (if not quite outright sobs). It was nothing like the fantasy - she had set my ass on fire - and it hurt and stung like I never would have imagined. Yet, it never seriously occurred to me that I would not submit to more when my wife demanded that I do so.
While I did quickly realize that I had gotten myself into more than I expected, I also knew that I had desired this for too long to walk away - regardless of the very painful reality.
So – perhaps that is part of the answer to me to the second half of Dan’s question – “why do we still desire the genuinely painful spanking after experiencing the reality?”. The years of fantasy had shown me my deep desire for this – and once I was able to finally live out that fantasy, I was not going to let it go, regardless of reality being far more painful than my fantasy. Also – at a practical level – I will add that the DWC lifestyle has been good for both of us, and for our marriage. It added needed discipline to my alpha personality and empowerment to my wife, and a happier marriage in general.
--al
Thanks, al. These drives really are complicated, aren't they? I don't doubt at all that you're right that the timing of early spanking experiences may be as critical as their prevalence. Spanking was incredibly prevalent in the area of the country where I was born. But, I moved from there well before puberty. Corporal punishment was still a thing in other communities I lived in as a kid, but it wasn't as openly on display. I did get spanked as a kid, but maybe only once after the onset of puberty and that was by my step-father, not my mother or a female relative. So, while I did have *a lot* of early exposure to spanking and corporal punishment, very little of it was during or post-puberty.
DeleteWhether we encountered an older, commanding spanker might also be important, at least in my case. While I didn't discover a spanking interest until my late 30s, I did have a major thing for older women when I was in high school and college. Things might have been very different if one of those older, commanding presences in my life had also been into giving disciplinary spankings. I didn't recognize at the time that I was into being directed and disciplined by a strong woman, but I also don't doubt that I would have gone along with it had such a woman taken things in that direction. Maybe the difference between your early interest and my late-blooming one is simply that you were exposed to the dominant aunt and the kinky older woman, while I didn't encounter anything along those lines?
"Also – at a practical level – I will add that the DWC lifestyle has been good for both of us, and for our marriage. It added needed discipline to my alpha personality and empowerment to my wife, and a happier marriage in general."
As we've gotten oder, this probably is the key reason I've stayed with this dynamic for 20 years. The part of it that is rooted in sex and kink is real, but it's not such a compelling thing that I couldn't give it up. On the other hand, I believe that DD has moderated my alpha tendencies while empowering my wife. It's simply a better balance, and I suspect things might retreat to our early unbalanced state if the DD and FLR aspects weren't a constant work in progress.
believe that DD has moderated my alpha tendencies while empowering my wife. It's simply a better balance.”
DeleteThis is our experience and apparently that of many others. However, it doesn’t explain the attraction of beta males to FLRs. I hope to get back to you later this week with a broader framework on the “why” question
Alan
That's true, Alan. It may be as simple as a lack of self-awareness around tendencies that may be holding you back or a lack of will do address those things. Let's face it, being an Alpha can create all sorts of problems when it become unbalanced, but how many Alphas really recognize that and attempt to deal with it? I assume the same thing is true of betas. At work, it was my Type A, Alpha tendencies that got me in trouble. They carried me a long way up the ladder, but I hit a point where I really would have been better of moderating those tendencies, which would have required greater self-discipline than I sometimes displayed. But, many others are held back by beta tendencies, and that too is an impediment one could choose to work on or not. My view is too often we play to what is comfortable, rather than asking whether what makes us comfortable is helping or hurting us.
Delete“I believe that DD has moderated my alpha tendencies while empowering my wife. It's simply a better balance.”
DeleteAllan: “This is our experience and apparently that of many others. However, it doesn’t explain the attraction of beta males to FLRs.”
Though I take the terms “alpha male” and “beta male” with a grain of salt—everyone wants to be an alpha because “beta” seems demeaning or emasculating—if I had to label myself, I guess I would confess to being a beta male. I wonder if that’s why I am drawn to full blown FLR as opposed to a regimen of DD in which the husband still wears the pants.
GH
Yeah, I actually hate the term "beta," particularly since it has picked up so many political connotations thanks to "bro" culture and the morons on the far right.
DeleteI did a deep dive into the „why“ of my spanking fetish in the process of coming out to my wife a couple of months ago but with no particular success. I read a book by a therapist (Jackie Castro) who claims that a spanking fetish is an express for the need of „reparenting“ and it is often linked to growing up in unstable families. Well my growing up with a mentally ill mother would certainly fit that criteria and I have to admit that my longing to be spanked by my wife has some very maternal vibes to it. I was spanked as a kid maybe 4 to 5 times up until the age of 7 by my mother. No idea if that triggered anything. But I have been fascinated by spankings as long as I can remember. I always thought something was very wrong with me up until my teenage years when the internet came up and I stumbled across spanking pictures and stories and I found out that I am not alone with this interest. For me the benefits of added accountability and of being more disciplined as a result of the threat of punishment or the stress relief a spanking brings are nice side effects but are not at the core of my spanking need. It is something much deeper. A strong need to submit in this narrow aspect of my life and the threat of a spanking by an authoritative woman is by far the biggest turn on I can imagine. I would love to know why I am this way and I still have a hard time accepting this aspect of me as something that is ok and not „abnormal“. Unfortunately my wife has a very hard time with my need which makes it a bit more difficult to accept myself. She stopped DD at the beginning of this year. I hope she will pick it up at some point but I am afraid it is just not in her nature. The „why“ is a really interesting question but as for myself I am pretty sure it will remain my personal mystery. But I am not sure it would a lot other than give me a logical explanation for my illogical need. Mike
ReplyDeleteMike, I've also come across the "reparenting" theory, and some of it does resonate for me. It fits my background and, as is the case for you, my DD needs also have a pretty strong maternal vibe. I either did recognize that for the first several years of our DD lifestyle, or it's something that developed over time. Once I did recognize it, I was afraid my wife might think it was weird, so I didn't say much about it. As I've opened up about it more, she has not only been accepting, but it's clear that she gravitates toward the maternal archetype, too.
Delete"For me the benefits of added accountability and of being more disciplined as a result of the threat of punishment or the stress relief a spanking brings are nice side effects but are not at the core of my spanking need. It is something much deeper. strong need to submit in this narrow aspect of my life and the threat of a spanking by an authoritative woman is by far the biggest turn on I can imagine."
I get that, too. When I discovered the DWC, it hit me like the proverbial ton of bricks. There were other kinky things I was interested in, but this was something totally different. As you say, it was deeper and, I would say, in some ways darker. It tapped some need it me that I hadn't even known I had. While the practical aspects definitely appealed to me--and were the points I used to sell my wife on the idea of it--the emotional response was deeper and went beyond both the practical aspects and any previous kink interests.
I'm sorry your wife is having a hard time with it. Hopefully, it's just a pause.
Mike's story was a lot like mine, including the desire to have your wife spank you, and the stress relief you get from spankings. Describing your "need to submit" and the turn on you get from "the threat of a spanking from an authoritative woman", resonate with me. My wife couldn't really embrace F/M DD, and that was a huge issue for us. After we split up, and I finally got what I always needed, life got much better. Like Dan said, hopefully your wife is just going through a pause. For me, however, I finally have had to accept that my lifelong obsession with F/M spanking is simply never going to go away. At this stage, I would not consider being in a serious relationship with a woman who wasn't into F/M spanking as well as DD. It's just too important to me.
DeleteNorton wrote: “For me, however, I finally have had to accept that my lifelong obsession with F/M spanking is simply never going to go away. At this stage, I would not consider being in a serious relationship with a woman who wasn't into F/M spanking as well as DD. It's just too important to me.”
DeleteSame here, Norton. It really is an obsession, and even though my libido declines with age, the obsession with spanking never decreases. That’s why I am here, I suppose. My wife is very sporadic about FLR and DD these days, and sometimes I wish I could just let it go. But I can’t, so I need to talk about it. Like you, I couldn’t imagine getting into any new relationship that wasn’t female led and that didn’t involve DD.
GH
GH, your comment reminded me of an important aspect about our DD. It is very important to me that she lets me know this is something she wants. and not just something she is doing to please me. She lets me know by reminding me that a spanking is coming up, and by occasionally ordering a spanking spontaneously because of something I did that she didn't approve of. I really appreciate her doing that. Sometimes I might ask for a spanking if I am really stressed out, as I know it will alter my mood. More often, she will realize that Iam uptight and ask me if I need a spanking, and I will probably will say yes. We don't have an FLR, but she does have the authority to order a spanking any time for any reason. If I break a rule, she will have me over her lap very soon. I don't want her to let me get away with anything, and though I never try to provoke her or intentionally break a rule, I do screw up often enough to earn a disciplinary spanking about once a month. I look at my transgressions as opportunities to reinforce boundaries and keep our DD active. I have always found it very difficult to ask for a spanking, and it's wonderful to not have to do that anymore. Dan, maybe "asking for it" could be a future topic.
DeleteThe why can be somewhat of a moving target. I had this conversation with my wife after a particularly hard spanking a few weeks ago. I begged her to continue to spank me when she felt I needed it. I was afraid if she walked away from it she would also walk away from me. She asked me frequently why I can't get just behave. It's a valid question that we both know the answer. At my core I am selfish. I am the youngest of four boys and I wasn't spoiled growing up but I also was not disciplined like my bothers were. I always felt the need. I was shy with no confidence. I needed someone not just to reward me when I did the right thing but also to spank me when I did the wrong thing. I went to a private school that used corporal punishment when needed but I only ever got in trouble one time. I was sent to the office and got three swats but even though my parents were informed they didn't even mention it at home. If my parents got a call about my brother's dad would have taken a a belt to them. Maybe I felt they didn't love me enough. It made me not trust him. DD for me is an expression of her love and for me. I'm thankful for it because it builds up trust. Being honest it also adds
ReplyDeletea component of excitement. There is that anxious feeling leading up to it.
Ward
"She asked me frequently why I can't get just behave. It's a valid question that we both know the answer."
DeleteI get that, though I admit the question annoys me when it comes from people who read about this lifestyle and have an issue with it. I got into it with someone on Medium a few weeks ago. The question seems to come mainly from BDSM tops who I think sometimes take issue with DD's focus on "real" spankings and authenticity. I think many in BDSM world have this compulsion to keep things at the level of fantasy and role play.
ZM addressed the question in a comment a year or two ago, in a way I wish I had written down. It was something to the effect of, "The simple answer is, if I could I would." It's simple but also gets right to the root of the issue. If more of these relationships were imposed by the wives, there would be some power in the criticism "Why can't you just behave?" But, that's not how most of these relationships come about. It's usually the men who ask for them. And, while it's impossible to evaluate with any kind of scientific precision, my sense is that most of the men who are in serious DD relationships are or have been pretty successful in most aspects of their lives. But, they aren't satisfied with either their efforts or the results, even if they are massively out-performing the majority of vanilla husbands out there. I suspect that many of us who have asked for these relationships simply set higher standards for ourselves than do many of our peers, which makes the whole "why can't you just behave" question ironic. We probably are behavior BETTER than many or even most vanilla husbands, but we're not satisfied with that.
If you were to ask your parents, I wonder what they would say about *why* you got less discipline than your brothers.
My Parents said by time I came along they were tired and being the youngest by three years they knew I would be the brunt of my brothers teasing. I was held down a lot. They wouldn't hit me but would taunt and tickle me. Dad never did anything about it because he thought I was spoiled too much by mom. I was favored by mom but my brothers were by dad.
DeleteI'm sure it's the case that in larger families the youngest kid does get less attention from the parents, both positive and negative.
DeleteWard: “I am the youngest of four boys and I wasn't spoiled growing up but I also was not disciplined like my bothers were. I always felt the need. I was shy with no confidence. I needed someone not just to reward me when I did the right thing but also to spank me when I did the wrong thing.”
DeleteAnd: “My Parents said by time I came along they were tired and being the youngest by three years they knew I would be the brunt of my brothers teasing. I was held down a lot. They wouldn't hit me but would taunt and tickle me. Dad never did anything about it because he thought I was spoiled too much by mom. I was favored by mom but my brothers were by dad.”
Ward, I find your story interesting because we seem to have been temperamentally similar as kids. I had an older brother who never really hurt me, but he definitely dominated me in certain ways, and my parents generally let that big brother/little brother power dynamic play out without intervening. My brother wasn’t just bigger, he was more outgoing and athletic, whereas I was shy and bookish. He was favoured by our father. I was favoured by our mother. A difference between my situation and yours is that my father punished both my brother and me harshly, generally with his belt on the bare bottom. Whereas you wish your father had punished you the same way as he did your brothers, I believe it was harmful to me because I was a highly sensitive kid, and that kind of severe punishment was overkill. I believe it contributed to lifetime struggles with anxiety and low self esteem, even though I have been fairly successful in life.
Another difference between you and me is that I was the middle of 5 children, with an older brother, an older sister, and two younger sisters. My brother and I were both subject to harsh corporal punishment until about the end of elementary school (grade 8). My older sister was also spanked when we were little, but my parents stopped spanking her at an earlier age. My two younger sisters never got spanked, which seems strange to me in retrospect. Interestingly, although my younger sisters don’t complain about not being spanked, they do complain that they got less attention and less educational guidance from our parents than their three older siblings did. And I can remember that my parents were more permissive with my younger sisters. That corresponds to Dan’s observation that in large families the youngest children tend to get less attention, both positive and negative.
Piecing these memories together, I realize there was a period of time, once my brother became “too old to spank”, that I was the only one out of five siblings who was subjected to corporal punishment. It humiliated me terribly that my sisters witnessed that, and remember once occasion when my sister and a couple of her girlfriends accidentally walked in on a bare bottom spanking I was getting in the kitchen. I hated the pain and humiliation of childhood spanking, but for some reason I also eroticized it at an early age, perhaps as a psychological defence mechanism. I have been sorting through all this stuff with the help of a psychotherapist because I have a need to understand the way I am.
GH
Why?
ReplyDeleteWorking in the school office in 7th grade and hearing kids get licks on a daily basis likely cemented an already latent interest. Coincidentally, strip poker is something that animates me as well. The element of losing and being forced into something feels similar to punishment. Interestingly, the whole scenario is arousing, not just losing. I’d be equally excited winning or losing.
So perhaps, it is ultimately risk/control issue. I was a good kid in school, never got licks, and was completely trusted. Did that have advantages? Certainly. Did I ever abuse that trust, no. So is the appeal of facing risk and/or losing control pent up regret for not having taken more advantage of the trust I enjoyed, or is it a deeper regret in never experiencing the consequences of violating that trust?
Speaking of consequences, I’m someone aspiring to be in a DD relationship, but my wife is not interested. She does spank me on a semi regular maintenance style basis, but she refuses to be my disciplinarian. I’ve been looking for an opportunity to introduce the concept of her becoming an accountability partner, and perhaps we took the first step this weekend. My wife and I were having useless conversation about nothing last week, but we were stepping over each other trying to finish each other’s sentence when I busted out with a “would you let me fucking finish what I was saying?” She didn’t flinch, but I was horrified with myself. Long story short, I asked for daily spankings for a week and gave her tips on how to make the spankings more “intense”. In a somewhat contradictory response she said she wouldn’t spank me for saying what I did, in fact she didn’t even remember it, but she would do it because I asked her. That seems to open the door to getting what I want. Will I ever experience a real disciplinary spanking? It seems unlikely, but setting internal goals and feeling the consequences of failure might become a more regular aspect of that thing we do. I’d love for her to take control, but the prospect of half a loaf vs. nothing seems like progress.
Writing this on day 4 and pretty sore…
3pops
Delete"Working in the school office in 7th grade and hearing kids get licks on a daily basis likely cemented an already latent interest."
I can definitely see how overhearing that day after day might cement your interest. For me, an overheard spanking is at least as powerful a prospect as someone seeing one.
Regardless of her motivation, it sounds like if your wife is acting as an accountability partner and spanking you regularly enough and hard enough to make you sore, you kind of *are* in a DD relationship. Congratulations. ;-)
Thanks, but please don’t her know!
Delete3pops
3pops wrote: “Working in the school office in 7th grade and hearing kids get licks on a daily basis likely cemented an already latent interest. Coincidentally, strip poker is something that animates me as well. The element of losing and being forced into something feels similar to punishment. Interestingly, the whole scenario is arousing, not just losing. I’d be equally excited winning or losing.”
DeleteYes, I feel exactly like that too. The idea of strip poker arouses me in a way that feels similar to disciplinary spanking. Both involve power and control/loss of control. In both cases, there is a winner and a loser in my mind, with the winner enjoying power over the loser. Maybe it’s weird to think of FLR and DD in terms of winning and losing, but to me FLR feels like the victory of the woman over the man in the eternal battle of the sexes which is a tension underlying marriage.
GH
Although I have said previously that I have no longer much interest in the ‘why’, this current thread has triggered some thought for me personally on the question. I am convinced that there is no single factor that creates the spanking interest ( I dislike the ‘kink’ concept as who defines normal?). In my case I can highlight several contributing factors - I went to a religious school where the strap was a daily, public punishment in an all boys school from the age of 7 to 14. I was raised in a very matriarchal society & environment - although there was no corporal punishment in my home, it was a frequent threat in quite descriptive and often semi-lighthearted language. Many of my friends were spanked at home & often referred to those experiences.
ReplyDeleteSpanking was a constant fantasy when I reached puberty - there was no ‘aha’ moment, it seemed (and still does) a completely natural instinct to me alongside other more mainstream fantasies. In my fantasy world I was both spankee & spanker, with both male & female participants.
It was only after 15 years of marriage that the topic came up obliquely with my wife after which I wrote to her with my as yet only partially formed ideas about how my interest could fit into our relationship in a positive way. I had no concept or previous knowledge of DD type relationships until I actively went internet searching for F/M information. Naively I had no idea that adults in long term relationships engaged in physical discipline!
The DWC site described exactly how such an approach could work for me and us. I distilled the key points to my wife in my embryonic journal & linked my interest spanking to her interest in seeing some changes in my behaviour.
After many years and many painful sessions my vanilla wife still doesn’t really understand my interest but recognises / welcomes the benefits of punishing me when she feels it will do some good. The strap is a key symbolic & actual implement for me. Ours mostly hangs on the wall beside my bed and still gives me a considerable jolt each time I see it.
I am sure that others can point to some similar & some different ‘why’s’ in their histories - it is fascinating that despite those differences we in this group have ended up in much the same place. TB
"I had no concept or previous knowledge of DD type relationships until I actively went internet searching for F/M information. Naively I had no idea that adults in long term relationships engaged in physical discipline!"
DeleteSame here! I suspect that for some who were true "spankos" from an early age, it's hard to believe that anyone currently in these lifestyles wouldn't be aware of adult spanking as punishment, but I truly wasn't. I wasn't even all that aware of adult erotic spankings. I'm sure I'd run across them in written erotic stories, like Penthouse Forum. But, they never held my attention and I'm sure none of them had a DD vibe. The first time that I recall seeing anything related to adult spanking that really grabbed me was a segment on HBO's "Real Sex" theory. It too didn't have any real disciplinary component, though the part I remember did focus on a wife spanking her husband with a crop and leather paddle. That segment stimulated enough interest that I did search for "wives spanking husbands" material on the internet, which took me to the DWC. But, I am confident that until I found that website I was unaware of adult domestic discipline.
I’ve had spanking fantasies since I was a little kid, but I was also unaware that adult/adult DD was a thing until I discovered it on the Internet when I was in my forties. In my teens in the 70’s, I discovered my brother’s hidden stash of Penthouse magazines and read the Forum avidly. There were quite a few letters about spanking back then, but they were mostly about M/F erotic spanking. However, I distinctly remember one letter I read many times in a one handed way. It was about a guy whose live-in girlfriend had won competitions in Jiu Jitsu and wrestling. He always made condescending remarks about her martial arts accomplishments because she was a woman and smaller than him. He figured that no amount of martial arts training could offset a man’s natural physical superiority. Finally, she got fed up and challenged him to a grappling match. He was shocked when she was able to quickly dominate him with her martial arts techniques. While she had him immobilized, she pulled down his pants and spanked him to teach him a lesson for disrespecting her. Once they both knew that she was the physically dominant partner, the letter claimed, she began to spank him on a regular basis, against his will, either as punishment when he annoyed her or for her own amusement. The letter said he had conflicted feelings about the relationship: on the one hand he felt humiliated to be physically dominated by a woman, but he was also turned on, and they had very hot sex. I remember finding that letter extremely exciting but thinking it couldn’t possibly be real.
DeleteGH
I have no idea whether the letter was real, but I took Brazilian Jiu-jitsu for a while and personally experienced being dominated on the mat by a female instructor who was a fraction of my size. So, I'm very confident it's within the realm of possibilities.
DeleteHi Dan. Dev again. For us there is always a reason why. I would never discipline him otherwise. He approached me over 30 years ago about his spanking fetish. I was open to the idea and found it fun and novel. He was always VERY excited to be spanked. Early on he had an “ accident “ while across my lap. One day he was being a jerk and aggravating me all day. I asked numerous times to stop but he persisted. Finally I said if he didn’t stop I would turn him over my knee and give a REAL spanking! He just laughed. We were in the kitchen so I took a wooden cooking spoon out of the drawer and did exactly that. He quickly found out this wasn’t play. He jumped all over and begged for me to stop. I continued for several more minutes to make my point. The spoon made some serious welts and bruises. His attitude changed immediately. Things were fine a while and he started. acting up again. I didn’t hesitate this time and used my hairbrush on him. Same effect and results. I then realized I could control his behavior better and have been taking care of things ever since. Certain things irritate me. Improper grammar is one of them. He has been paddled multiple times for that. A few years ago ago I took him out to the storage shed. I remember our neighbor was out doing yard work. He noticed and begged not to do it. There was a car brush there I used. He tried to stay quiet but almost instantly he was yelling up a storm. I’m pretty sure she heard everything but she never mentioned it. When I was done , his bottom was a deep red and purple. He may not of gone to work the next day ? Now all I have to do is point to the backyard and he immediately quiets down He likes to play martyr. I only discipline him when he needs it and he has deserved every spanking he’s ever received. It’s his birthday this week He knows he’s getting a spanking. He doesn’t know what I’ll use or how hard it will be ? lol Dev
ReplyDeleteHi Dev. Welcome back. "For us there is always a reason why." Same here. After a very brief period (a couple of months) in which we played around with erotic spankings, after we discovered the DWC it's always been "real" punishment for real things. We don't do fun spanking or maintenance. The only slight departure from that is we've done "preventative" spankings before a few social gatherings where I was likely to get out of hand.
DeleteJR has told us about your woodshed, and part of me is very envious. Maybe it's just the fact that I grew up for part of my youth on farms and ranches, but I have a thing for woodsheds and barns, even though I was never spanked in either. Unfortunately, we don't have anything like a woodshed or any room in our suburban yard to put one
Dev, it sounds like his "accident" across your lap happened when spankings were still in the fun stage. I can only imagine how my wife would respond, especially if she was wearing anything that she cared about. Erections have occurred sometimes, especially early on, and in those instances Beth has made it a point to spank harder and explain why. It does seem to quell any excitement from me. It also satisfied her concern about whether I'm really being punished.
ReplyDeleteI've only experienced the wooden spoon a few times and found that it produced darker bruises than either the hairbrush or spatula. My wife's own preference is to not use it for that reason. That might be more about anesthetics than real concern.
Kevin
Sorry to have not commented here in a while! Life has been busy, but this topic resonates.
ReplyDeleteAs I’ve mentioned before, J does not mess around on the rare occasions when she punishes me. I was punished for the first time in almost a year last month, and I can vividly recall every moment of wanting to be absolutely anywhere else. (She uses a fearsome rubber strap and has me climax first to greatly reduce the sexual edge). I hate it. It’s real punishment that I (generally successfully) try to avoid provoking.
But while I don’t crave the punishment, I DO crave the fact that she has- and is willing to use- the authority to punish me for real. And that fills a very deep need in me. I feel safe and loved in our FLR.
Hi K. I don't usually feel all that sorry for the guys on here (including myself) who report getting a hard punishment spanking, since it's what we've all asked for. But, yours do sound truly miserable. I've experienced a heavy rubber strap, and those were truly awful experiences even without the pre-punishment orgasm.
DeleteNo reason to feel sorry for me Dan! I deserved it, and, as I said, I love J and being in the relationship in which she can exercise authority this way. And it definitely cleans the slate.
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