Saturday, February 17, 2024

The Club - Meeting 466 - Is Domestic Discipline a Deal-Killer?

“Women marry men hoping they will change, and men marry women hoping they will not. So each is inevitably disappointed.” - Albert Einstein

Hello all.  Welcome back to the Disciplinary Couples Club.  Our weekly meeting of men and women who are in, or interested in being in, Domestic Discipline and/or Female Led (FLR) relationships.

 

Once again, before we get started, I would like to extend a specific invitation to any of our female readers, if they still exist, to move from “lurker” to “commenter” status. We miss having you around.

 

I hope you all had a great week.  Ours was interesting.  I’ve mentioned a few times that I had talked to Anne about the possibility of using DD to give me some additional motivation to overcome procrastination, move forward on some bigger life goals, and basically get past some of the stagnation I let myself drift into in 2023.  Somewhat surprisingly, she has not only been open to the idea but downright enthusiastic about it.  We had our first face-to-face, in-depth discussion about it this week, which I think makes it premature to talk about it in detail so soon.  But, stay tuned.

 

 

Other than that, it was a pretty uneventful week.  The only hiccup was I’ve been getting involved in some local political issues, and it’s easy to get frustrated with that kind of stuff.  We live in what has to be one of the most highly educated counties in the U.S., yet I often feel like I’m surrounded by stupid people.  I think that not keeping my temper may have to be an actionable item in Anne’s new performance improvement plan.

 


We had a good discussion last week regarding why we continue DD even after we know what a real DD spanking entails, though I’m not sure we arrived at any answers.  It is such an individualized question and inevitably get tied up in discussions of our individual DD origins and what drove our interest in the first place. But, I never get tired of hearing origin stories, so even if we didn’t get too many answers it was interesting.

 

A couple of the comments hit on something I wrote down as a possible topic a few weeks but couldn’t quite figure out how to develop.  Honestly, I still can’t. This is going to be one of the shortest posts since the beginning of the blog, as I can’t find a single meme, drawing or photo that relates to it, and I don’t have a whole lot to say about the topic myself. But, here goes . . .

 

Norton kicked it off with this comment:

 

Mike's story was a lot like mine, including the desire to have your wife spank you, and the stress relief you get from spankings. Describing your "need to submit" and the turn-on you get from "the threat of a spanking from an authoritative woman", resonate with me. My wife couldn't really embrace F/M DD, and that was a huge issue for us. After we split up, and I finally got what I always needed, life got much better. Like Dan said, hopefully your wife is just going through a pause. For me, however, I finally have had to accept that my lifelong obsession with F/M spanking is simply never going to go away. At this stage, I would not consider being in a serious relationship with a woman who wasn't into F/M spanking as well as DD. It's just too important to me.

 

GH responded:

 

Same here, Norton. It really is an obsession, and even though my libido declines with age, the obsession with spanking never decreases. That’s why I am here, I suppose. My wife is very sporadic about FLR and DD these days, and sometimes I wish I could just let it go. But I can’t, so I need to talk about it. Like you, I couldn’t imagine getting into any new relationship that wasn’t female led and that didn’t involve DD.

 

So, the topic for this week is: If, god forbid, you found yourself contemplating a new relationship, whether due to loss of a spouse or from divorce or break up, to what extent would DD be a deal-killer for any future relationship?

 

For Norton and GH, it sounds like it would be.  I’ve spent quite a bit of time talking to Aunt Kay’s husband since she passed, and while DD isn’t a deal-killer for him in any future relationship and, in fact, he seems resigned to accepting that he’s unlikely to find anyone who would be into, it’s clear that he still has a strong interest in it and having someone fill that need would be a strong preference.  KOJ did lose a spouse, I but I don’t recall whether he’s addressed this in any of his comments, and I hope he’ll share any thoughts he has about it.

 

For me, I think I would feel about it much like Aunt Kay’s husband does. In an ideal world, it would be something a new partner would be into, but it wouldn’t be a deal-killer by any means.  I got along fine for the first decade of married life without even knowing there was such a thing as domestic discipline and, honestly, that probably was the period in which I could have used it most. 

 

Would I like it to be a part of any theoretical future relationship? Yes.  Could I move on and live without it? Yes.

 

If I were, god forbid, to find myself looking for a new relationship, would I tell potential partners about the DD aspects of my marriage?  Almost certainly.  I know myself well enough that I’m 100% sure I wouldn’t be involved with a prude in the first place, and I have 0% ability to keep my mouth shut about much of anything in any intimate relationship. I am very sure that I would bring it up, though probably not at the beginning of the relationship.

 

I also stick to my belief that there are very few women out there who have a present, known interest in DD or know they want to be in an FLR.  I believe that in real life, in the vast majority of cases Disciplinary Wives are made not born.  If I wanted DD to be part of a future relationship, I’d probably need to do what I did this time around – tell my partner about my interest, describe it at a high level, refer her to resources that are out there like the DWC website and this blog, and see where she takes it from there.

 

 

How about you?  Is DD a deal-killer for you for any future relationship?  This is an easy one to address from the perspective of the disciplined husband or the disciplinary wife.  For the husbands, would you be OK with a future relationship that did not include domestic discipline? For the wives, now that you’ve experienced the benefits and empower that DD and FLR bring, would you be OK doing without them in any theoretical future relationship?

 

I hope you all have a good week.

80 comments:

  1. For various reasons, I am not expecting to find myself in this situation. One of them is that I definitely don't expect my wife will outlive me. However, if I had to make such a decision and I particularly wanted to go all the way, I would probably be willing to gently try and win her over gradually, bearing in mind the possibility that I may never succeed.

    J

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    1. Yes, that seems like the most realistic way to handle such a situation.

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    2. Thanks. Sorry, I think I phrased things the wrong way way around! I meant to say I don't expect to outlive my wife! My bad!

      Anyway, for the hypothetical situation where I outlive my wife that I definitely don't expect to come to pass, ideally, I would have the discussion at a fairly early stage of the relationship and then make the decision about whether I wanted to proceed on the basis that I may or may not ultimately succeed, or try my luck with another woman.

      J

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    3. Yeah, I kind of figured something went wrong with your first comment.

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    4. Yes, it did, lol. Anyway, sometimes, you have to make adult decisions in life and in this instance, it may be a case of staying single or not having a DD relationship. Who knows? I wouldn't say I particularly struggled with winning women over historically, so maybe I feel confident enough to say that, but if my circumstances were different, maybe I wouldn't?

      J

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    5. I put the question to my wife and she said that the genie is well and truly out the bottle: she is now so used to spanking, both DD and otherwise, that she thinks she would struggle to adapt if this were to come to pass and the suitor were unable to accept this sort of lifestyle, though she isn't 100% sure she would be seeking remarriage after I am no longer in the picture anyway. But I'm glad this isn't a possibility I ever expect to come to pass with me, so I'm not investing as much thought as I otherwise would, even though I am often curious to ponder purely hypothetical questions.

      J

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  2. Heaven forbid that something ever happens to my wife, though we all know that's always a possibility. She's had two separate brain surgeries a few years apart for tumors that were fortunately benign, and she is fully back to normal including a very athletic schedule. So I hope she doesn't depart anytime soon, but it is in the back of both of our minds.

    But to the main point, I would like to insert some optimism. Yes, the lack of DD would be a deal breaker for me. That said, I always found it fairly easy when I was single to interest a woman in spanking me for discipline. Admittedly, that's a far cry from full on DD, but it at least opened the door. It's also a bit easier for me as I have no interest in FLR -- just DD.

    Thus, my experience has been much more in line with some of the professional polls that find a huge percentage of men and women have had spanking fantasies.

    As a result, if the unfortunate situation ever arose, I would be fairly upfront when I finally went back out. No, it's not first date conversation. But if you hit it off with the lady, I wouldn't wait too long to bring it up. You might be surprised how many women will respond to a gentle "Can we give a try a couple times and see how it feels for you?"

    Of course, the old economic axiom applies: DD is a necessary but not sufficient condition for a lasting, loving relationship.

    Good topic and best wishes for those of you facing the difficult circumstances.

    Graham

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    1. Great thoughts, Graham. I particularly like that axiom.

      "That said, I always found it fairly easy when I was single to interest a woman in spanking me for discipline. Admittedly, that's a far cry from full on DD, but it at least opened the door."

      I discovered DD, and adult spanking in general, well into our marriage. So, I never had an opportunity for that kind of experience. But, I have no doubt you're right that persuading many to give it a try would not be that hard."

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  3. It often seems to be a trusim in the FM DD/DWC community that it is usually quite difficult to convince a wife to take a disciplinary role. However, it is probably even more true that most men are so concerned about the possibility of rejection and looking foolish (weird,unmanly,sick) that they never bring it up (it took me a few years to do so, and even then it was while we were both drunk and swapping sexual fantasis - when I confessed to a "mild interest" in being spanked). This is certainly a very understandable concern, and yet, what I have often seen in spanking forums such as this over the years is that once a wife was approached, they were quite often willing to give it a try to some degree, and many quickly came to enjoy their role as a disciplinary wife.

    This brings me to a story of a man, "Joe", with whom I had some anonymous email correspondence many years ago. I cannot vouch for the authenticity of the story, although he seemed sincere. Joe claimed that he had developed an interest in the DWC approach after having been married for a few years. He revealed this to his wife and they soon became a "DWC-style" couple. Unfortunately, Joe had a problem with chasing married women (he said they seemed "safer") - and he got caught in an affair and his wife divorced him. For the next few years, he dated a number of married women (apparently he had a way with the women and a knack for picking out otherwise happily married ladies who wanted to add some spice to their life) - and he claimed that they were all willing to spank him to some degree, two of them to a "DWC level" with both of them telling him that they would love to be disicplinary wives in their marriages. He finally ended up dating an eligible single lady who he eventually married - but not before they were in a full DWC style relationship. He claimed it was all about just being willing to ask (and explain if necessary) - and that his experience was that most mature women were quite willing to take on a disciplinary role. Again, I cannot vouch for his veracity, and even if completely true, his experience certainly may not be representative. But, I do believe that many more women than we would suspect would be willing to be disciplinary wives - especially as they mature (say 35+). I have shared here before that our friend who is into kink once told us that many women into kink spend their 20's as sub, their 30's as switches, and 40's (and up) as tops.

    So, it may be that - heaven forbid - any of us should find ourselves as single men and open to a new relationship, that establishing a new DWC-style relationship may not be quite as unlikely as we might tend to think.

    As for myself, while I would prefer that such a hypothetical future relationship be of the DWC variety, it would not be a deal breaker. F/M DD would certainly not be the primary concern in a new relationship - although certainly an important consideration. I could live a happy life without F/M DD - although I suspect that if a future relationship were plain vanilla, I would still enjoy reading an F/M spanking story on occasion. --al

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    1. I'm not really all that surprised by "Joe's" experience and don't have any reason to doubt it was true. The first two sentences in your comment are almost certainly true -- some people who want this lifestyle probably are too embarrassed or scared of rejection to even ask. Ultimately, if you don't ask you don't get. While it has nothing to do with DD, I had a fraternity brother back in college who was nothing special to look at. But, he was utterly shameless when approaching women at parties and as soon as he determined the one he was talking to wasn't interested, he was on to the next. He was amazingly successful at getting attractive women to spend the night with him, while the rest of us stood around talking to each other, too shy or scared of rejection to put it out there.

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  4. I am also of the view that any future relationship would ideally be of the DWC variety but not a deal breaker. I would be more interested in a fun relationship in which we can both explore and grow. Maintaining a sexual relationship would be more important to me (at this stage anyway) than a DWC one. Boundaries and resulting punishment would be the icing though...

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  5. Though I said last week that FLR/DD would be a deal breaker, maybe that was too hasty a response. I find your take on it reasonable, Dan. What you say about yourself is true of me too: I lived without DD for the first phase my marriage, and I could do so again. As it stands, my wife still disciplines me occasionally, but the way things are going, the final years may be without spanking too. I wouldn’t want to separate from my wife if she stopped spanking. I would miss it terribly, but there is much more to marriage than spanking, especially after so many years. So would DD be a deal breaker for a hypothetical new relationship? Maybe not. However, I would feel ethically bound to reveal my kinks to any prospective partner, and whether it would be a deal breaker for me might be a moot point because knowing that about me could be a dealbreaker for her. For those of us who only asked our wives for DD after many years of marriage, who knows whether our wives would have married had they known we had this kink?
    GH

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    1. Just thinking that it’s kind of selfish of me to think only about my own kink in considering a possible relationship with a woman. When I got married to my wife, I didn’t tell her I was kinky because I didn’t know myself. Now that I know how kinky I am (it goes beyond spanking, to be honest), I think a frank discussion about our sexual fantasies and kinks would be necessary for both practical and ethical reasons. I would want to know about her fantasies, kinks, and desires too, so as to know whether I am the right person to give HER what SHE needs. Who knows what new and exciting vistas might open up when two people share their sexual fantasies in an open and honest manner.
      GH

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    2. "I wouldn’t want to separate from my wife if she stopped spanking. I would miss it terribly, but there is much more to marriage than spanking, especially after so many years." - I agree fully with this. In the case of an established relationship, then spanking is just one element of many, and no matter how important it is to you, it doesn't make a relationship in and of itself.

      I love my wife, and certainly wouldn't even think of leaving her if she no longer wanted to do DD. Having said that, since she knows how much a part of my being it is, if she began to expect me to somehow no longer be interested in DD, I would have to say it would make me seriously question her love for me.

      In the context of a new relationship, it is somewhat different. Considering that I know that DD and things involving power dynamics are quite important to me and something I would not want to live without, I could certainly see just not letting feelings develop further or allowing a relationship to move forward if there was no possibility of ever sharing DD with that person. The deeper the relationship I have with them already, the less likely that DD would be a dealbreaker for me.

      -ZM

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    3. GH and ZM, I get what you're saying about how this would play out in the context of a new relationship. For me, I could see myself being with someone who was not into DD. I could see myself being with someone who was pretty vanilla in most of her own proclivities. What I think I would have a much harder time with, to the point that such a relationship would never get off the ground in the first place, would be someone who was judgmental about DD or about most other kinks. The plain fact is, while I don't share sexual details with most friends, virtually everyone in my social set is and has been open-minded about most things. In fact, most of them were pretty adventurous and non-conventional in one way or another. If someone was very closed off or conventional about life in general, and probably about her sexuality, I doubt I would find them interesting enough for me to have any desire to be with them.

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  6. I guess it always depends on the person I would be dating. If she would have a strong „take charge“ mentality and I would sense an authoritative vibe coming from her maybe I might open up. But it took me 10 years of marriage and being in a very emotionally vulnerable place to finally open up to my wife about my spanking need. I dońt know if I would have that level of trust and vulnerability at the beginning of a relationship. My spanking need is an essential part of me but I am with GH that there is much more to marriage than spanking. Dan, your comment that disciplinary wifes are made not born is an interesting statement and gives me hope that my wife would be willing at some point to pick it up again.

    I don't want to highjack this weeks topic but maybe it fits somehow to the notion of „making“ a DD wife in the sense of educating her. My wife asked me recently how a spanking can be a punishment if the state of my erection at the beginning of a spanking tells her I am obviously very excited. I didn`t really know how to answer that. My best guess would be that is not the spanking that excites me but her authority that is displayed in the act of her spanking me. But it is just a really difficult concept to grasp for somebody who has not experienced the conflicting feeling of excitement and dread at the same time. Mike

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    1. "But it took me 10 years of marriage and being in a very emotionally vulnerable place to finally open up to my wife about my spanking need."

      Hi Mike. I''m not in quite the same position, because while I was 10 years into my marriage when I proposed DD to Anne, up until shortly before then I didn't have any idea that it even existed. So, it wasn't like I was being silent for 10 years about an unfulfilled need. But, I do remember how much I needed to allow myself to be vulnerable in to even raise it. Though, I think now, twenty years later, I'm more comfortable about making myself vulnerable. Or, maybe it's more accurate to say that as I've gotten more comfortable in my own skin, there are fewer things I feel vulnerable about.

      No problem on hijacking the thread. And, your question about erections fits in fairly nicely with last week's topic, i.e. why we keep coming back to DD even when we know its reality. In the early days (and for many years), I got erections before every spanking. Even now, I still get them, but it's probably one out of every three times. And, the less time I have to anticipate the spanking, the less likely I am to get one. But, in terms of *why* I got them so consistently and still do, even when I know how bad it is going to be, I honestly have no idea. I don't want to set off a firestorm with this, but I wonder it's a little like how some victims of sexual assault--men and women--have been known to exhibit the outward signs of sexual arousal even though the experience genuinely was non-consensual. Our bodies do weird things when under stress, including in situations that have some sexual connotation, even if we genuinely don't want the situation itself. But, apart from that speculative analogy, I really have no idea.

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    2. I’m not sure how relevant erections are to the reality of DD. I definitely have a spanking kink. I know that because if I want an image to arouse myself for solo sex, I look for spanking images. And yet, I very rarely got erections when my wife spanked me, even before my current problem with erectile dysfunction. I have always found it mysterious that I wouldn’t get erections from my favourite erotic fantasy playing out in real life.
      But I would get an erection later, replaying the event in memory. How can that be explained?
      GH

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    3. I know we've discussed this here before, but I will share again that I've never had an erection prior to a spanking - even in the beginning, twenty years ago when it was "new and exciting" (and when erections still came much more spontaneously). Although - there is certainly some sort of "psycho-sexual" dynamic involved. --al

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    4. Al, that's definitely another area where our reaction varies. Especially in the first several years of DD, it was very seldom that I did NOT get an erection before a spanking. I'm curious, given that you had a spanking kink before ever getting a real disciplinary spanking (as discussed in reference to your Even More story, which was written before you were in a DWC relationship), did you get erections when thinking about real disciplinary spankings before you had ever received one?

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    5. >did you get erections when thinking about real disciplinary spankings before you had ever received one?<
      Indeed - I've often obtained erections (although much more so when I was younger) while reading F/M stories, watching F/M videos, and I can recall even obtaining an erection while writing F/M stories (all those years ago) - or just fantasizing about F/M spankings in general. I suspect that I'm not the only one here who has masturbated while fantasizing about being spanked (or perhaps watching a video). There is most definitely a sexual dynamic there - except when it comes to the actual spanking (for me, anyway).

      While we're on this subject, I wonder if any of our members have ever orgasmed while being spanked. I have not - although I have heard of this happening. I will confess, however, to sometimes "leaking" seminal fluid during a spanking. I have no idea how common this might be - but I suspect it has to do with prostate stimulation from the spanking (and not "sexual excitement" per se). --al

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  7. I'm getting tok old in the tooth for new relationships but in the unlikely event of being single yes I would be requiring not only someone to perform the acts of chastisement but also someone who actually was an equal partner in it all from the beginning. I.have joked in the past with the words "someone needs to be spanked in every relationship, anyone in one with me is just lucky I don't care which way around". These days I probably do but could live with either/or. Cheers GoodLifeMickey

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    1. GLM, I was thinking the same thing as you, that I am getting too long in the tooth to consider a new sexual relationship. For one thing, I would have to disclose to any woman who was interested in me not only that I have a spanking kink but that I am no longer capable of conventional, penetrative sex for medical reasons. I am still capable of giving and receiving sexual pleasure, but not in that conventional way. I would expect that alone to be a deal breaker for most women, especially any younger women, but it might not be a deal breaker for some women my age. Once making myself vulnerable by sharing that (embarrassing) information, it would be a small step to telling the woman about my spanking kink if she still had any erotic interest. Like you, GLM, if the woman then revealed to me that she also had a spanking kink, but that she wanted ME to spank HER, I could absolutely do that. My wife is the only woman who has ever spanked me as an adult, but I have spanked a couple of women who asked me to, so I could get pleasure from providing discipline to a woman who wanted that.
      GH

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    2. Switching would certainly increase the odds of finding someone. Though, that's kind of the converse of the topic.

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    3. I think that if a woman was into spanking as a bottom, she would likely understand my desire for DD, so maybe there would be reciprocity. The reason I enjoy spanking women, I think, is that I empathize with their desire, and I get a kind of vicarious satisfaction from fulfilling their need.
      GH

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  8. For me, the real "deal breaker" is all about honesty. I want each of us to be able to be completely honest and open about what is important to us. I have been with quite a few women, and until fairly recently, was unable to find one that was into F/M spanking. I didn't split up with any of them because of that. However, after going to several professionals, which my last wife knew about, I realized how important F/M spanking was for me. I decided to make sure the next woman was not turned off by F/M spanking, or at least accepted it. She went with me to a spanking session, and was intrigued, though she was previously unaware of adult spanking. I didn't approach it as a "deal breaker", but I wanted to be completely honest with her about who I was and what F/M spanking looked and felt like. As I have said before, I am old, and F/M spanking has been a lifelong fantacy for me. After being with this new lady for a few years, we began to explore real DD, and we discovered how much more satisfying it was for both of us. Her having the authority is pretty much the cake, while spanking is more the icing. If she told me she wanted to stop spanking and DD, it would be a huge loss for me, but I love her, and I would not would end the relationship because of it. It would definaltly impact our sex life, as spanking and sex so so intertwined for me. While most of my relationships did not include DD and F/M spanking, I realize that I am so much happier living this lifestyle. Does that make it a deal breaker? No, but I seem to never stop craving it. So, I could live without it, but life would not be as exciting or enjoyable, and I would undoubetdly be drinking more.

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    1. Very well explained, Norton. That resonates with me. GH

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    2. "It would definaltly impact our sex life, as spanking and sex so so intertwined for me."

      The fact that it doesn't work that way for me certainly makes it easier for me to say it wouldn't be a deal-killer in my case.

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  9. DD is definitely not a deal breaker at the beginning of a serious relationship, but it can be a “deal maker” and has been for me in my two DD relationships. The depth and intimacy that DD offers make it impossible for other women to compete with a woman who adopts loving female-led discipline. In earlier relationships, I always found myself searching for something missing. What was missing, of course, was discipline and spanking. With it, I am emotionally fulfilled; without it, I seek

    Let me add a related point. I believe that the early months or years of a serious relationship with vanilla women are probably the time one is least likely to bring up or dwell on DD. One is still courting and revealing the deep, dark secrets is something that comes later.

    However, I think waiting is not the best strategy. One reason is simply it is unfair not to tell her of needs that are so deep that might later sabotage your relationship. But a better reason is that early in a relationship is the interval when she may be more open to exploring unfamiliar (to her) aspects of sexuality—and it is also the time she is going to be motivated to show that she wants to meet your needs. What I am suggesting probably actually happens rarely. But in today's world –with the increasing honesty about sexuality ( especially for emerging generations), it could work

    Alan

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    1. "The depth and intimacy that DD offers make it impossible for other women to compete with a woman who adopts loving, female-led discipline". So true! I also liked what you said about discipline and spanking making you emotionally fulfilled, and without it, you seek. A major bonus for woman is when they realize how important DD is for us that need it, they never have to worry about you seeking other women. They have real power in the relationship, can stop any arguing or bad behavior, and have a man that will be emotionally vulnerable. The only catch is they have the confidence to be strong enough to do it, and be committed enough to keep doing it. They also need to get past being worried about hurting him, and understand that he needs to be spanked, and by doing so, they are helping him to be a better man, and he will love her more for giving him what he truly needs. If you know you need F/M spanking and DD, and are lucky enough to find a woman to provide it for you, you are a lucky man indeed!

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    2. Alan: "The depth and intimacy that DD offers make it impossible for other women to compete with a woman who adopts loving female-led discipline."

      Norton: "A major bonus for woman is when they realize how important DD is for us that need it, they never have to worry about you seeking other women."

      I don't think I've ever seen this listed as one of the advantages of DD, but it makes sense. It also plays into something I was thinking about when writing this topic but didn't put in the post, namely that I don't think any commenter on this blog has ever said they got a divorce *after* being in an established DD relationship. Some have gotten divorced from a vanilla and then got into DD in a subsequent relationship, but there does seem to be a pretty low correlation between DD relationships and divorce, at least among those who have participated in this blog.

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    3. Dan:“…there does seem to be a pretty low correlation between DD relationships and divorce…”

      This is almost certainly true. The divorce rate for first marriages now hangs at about 50 % and it is much higher for subsequent marriages, estimated at over 70 percent for third marriages. Divorce has many roots and so it is inevitable that DD couples do divorce sometimes. There are no published statistics on this, but anecdotal information seems plentiful. I have noticed over some time that posters who recall a failed DD relationship almost invariable note that DD probably kept the couple together longer, but in the end wasn’t enough

      This seems plausible since the enormous incentive of DD to one, or both partners probably create some relationships doomed to failure because of fundamental incompatibilities not usually present in good relationships. The fantasy statistic I would like to see is the divorce rate among couples who add DD to an already strong high-function relationship. The number is not going to be zero, but it is going to be magnitudes lower than divorces in non-DD relationships
      Alan

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    4. "The fantasy statistic I would like to see is the divorce rate among couples who add DD to an already strong high-function relationship."

      Agreed, and I wonder whether DD can ever really work in marriages that don't fit that profile, or mostly fit it. I think people can be attracted to DD when there are problems in a marriage. Looking back, I think my discovery of the DWC fits that. There were definitely stressors in our marriage, most related to it being unbalanced in terms of the power dynamic and me being too intense, with too few boundaries and too little self-discipline. But, it was still all within the range of a fundamentally solid relationship. If the basic communication skills and respect for each other isn't there, in my opinion DD isn't likely to save the situation. But, as you point out, it can do wonders in improving and strengthening already good relationships, and I do think it can help balance a lot of the negative things that can stress even a good match between compatible people.

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    5. I agree, Dan. If the husband is a selfish dickhead who is unable to accept legitimate criticism, there is no way DD could solve anything. You have to have a capacity for self critical reflection in order to accept discipline from your wife. I would add that it is also possible that some men would ask their wives for DD, even though it isn’t really discipline they want but rather satisfaction of a kink. When I first told my wife I wanted FLR/DD, she was understandably sceptical at first whether there would be a real benefit to her in acting on my kink.
      GH

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    6. Agreed Norton. I am probably using poor semantics here, but for any kind of benefit, my wife had to become willing to actually "hurt" me. What is the point if it is just tickling? On this subject, my wife said that the make-up embrace and sex following the spanking were crucial for reassuring her and getting her to that stage where she isn't worried about "hurting" me.

      J

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    7. "What is the point if it is just tickling?" Agreed. I get how experiences vary, but I also still have no problem saying that there is a distinction between real DD and a spanking fetish that has a DD overlay.

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    8. Dan wrote: “What is the point if it is just tickling?" Agreed. I get how experiences vary, but I also still have no problem saying that there is a distinction between real DD and a spanking fetish that has a DD overlay.”

      That makes me wonder whether I have “real DD” or “a spanking fetish that has a DD overlay.” Spankings from my wife don’t “tickle”. But they don’t leave me with a bottom that is bruised and sore for a couple of days either. I would like to experience the kind of harsh spanking some of you guys get, but my wife does it her way. For that reason, I sometimes feel that the DCC is a club to which I don’t fully belong. On the other hand, I tell myself that what I have is “real DD” because my wife only ever spanks me for disciplinary purposes, and it is never a prelude to sex. Also, I don’t think it is necessarily severity that distinguishes real DD from a hardcore BDSM spanking fetish because I know of spanking fetishists, men and women, who need a spanking to be extreme in order to get off on it.
      GH

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    9. J: "On this subject, my wife said that the make-up embrace and sex following the spanking were crucial for reassuring her and getting her to that stage where she isn't worried about "hurting" me."

      J, that's a great point, and I'm not sure it's been articulated here before. I know some see sex after a real disciplinary session as potentially undermining the disciplinary aspect. I've never felt that way. After a session, I tend to get way more touchy-feely and emotionally intimate than is my norm. But, until your comment I hadn't really thought about apres-DD sex could also be reassuring for a wife who might struggle with wondering whether "hurting" her husband might cause him to feel resentful.

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    10. GH, I don't think they are mutually exclusive. I think it is possible for it to be a prelude tosex and still extremely painful.

      Dan, glad to have brought it to light: maybe it can be a topic one week? Even if, hypothetically with other couples, a very hard spanking doesn't fulfil its intended disciplinary purpose (despite the intention being there), if it brings a couple closer together, I suppose that is often the underlying purpose beyond a DD setup.

      J

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    11. Dan, I asked my wife about this after posting the above comment. She says part of the feeling is generated by the fact that I am willing to expose myself to pain for her, similar to how it was described in "A husband's essay" on the DWC website. Thoughts?

      J

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    12. That was never one of my favorite stories on the DWC, so I'd have to go back and read it.

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    13. "A Husband's Essay" was also one of my very favorite articles on the DWC site - well written and insightful. --al

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    14. Al, I think your comment and mine crossed in the ether. For once, we didn't agree on something DWC related. :-)

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  10. After missing the past two weeks, I thought I had better jump in quickly this week! But to sum up the previous two weeks, I have always loved the "even more" story, and was fascinated to hear that Al wrote it before he had actually experienced DD. While I didn't love the toilet seat reason (since I think that it is no more reasonable to expect it to be left down than for it to be left up), I do think that is a reason mentioned enough to be plausible. Also, my least favorite reason to be disciplined - and coincidentally the most reason I am punished - is for "attitude," I liked it that Al made it for a specific outburst. I think for me, I would much prefer my wife punish me for specific instances of bad attitude, so I can see clearly where the line is and where I crossed it, rather than just "you have been having a bad attitude lately."

    As far as last week's "why" question, I hope to find some time in the coming days to read what people wrote, in hopes that I can better understand it myself. I have pretty much given up on trying to answer the question, but that doesn't mean I am no longer curious. If I have any thoughts, I will post them here.

    Now for the whole "new relationship" question. I am almost 100% certain that I would tell anyone new about this need from as close to the beginning as possible. The only way I could see this not happening is if I fell so quickly and completely in love that I was afraid to share because it might jeopardize the relationship. However, not feeling able to share this would also be a huge red flag for me.

    If I shared my feelings, and if she was open minded about it, even if she wasn't sure she would ever be open to pursuing it, I think that would not be a deal breaker. The only thing that would be a deal breaker is if she wanted me to never read about it or otherwise explore it, in which case I would have to end the relationship because I know myself all too well and know that eventually I would succumb to the pull of this.

    -ZM

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    1. I get what you're saying about preferring to be punished for specific instances of bad behavior, though I can also see how her keeping the boundaries more nebulous could enhance the feeling that she's in control.

      "However, not feeling able to share this would also be a huge red flag for me." Totally agree.

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    2. BTW, I'm glad you jumped in early, and many others did as well. I'm not sure I can recall a topic where almost all the regulars jumped in within 24 hours of the post going up.

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  11. Hope that I never have to find out, but I would not want a relationship where I could not be myself. Living the DD life is definitely part of who I am now. If i did not have that I would be a different person. Therefore it would be a deal breaker, but the problem is that the person I turn control over to must be someone that I trust implicitly. That kind of trust comes with time. Maybe the new person would become open to DD in time but not at the beginning. There would have to be a willingness to consider it on their part. So in a way, for me it is a catch 22.

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    1. Welcome, Antonio. Thanks for joining in.

      "Therefore it would be a deal breaker, but the problem is that the person I turn control over to must be someone that I trust implicitly. That kind of trust comes with time."

      That's a good point. Several have said they would want to share their need for this very early in the relationship, but you're right that for many people it takes time to develop that kind of trust.

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  12. I have a slightly different take on this. Firstly I find Al’s comment about the stages a woman goes through interesting. This certainly aligns with my experience - other than the actual timing. My wife was sub when we met but her transition via switch to Domme took less than a year. Anyway, as I’ve said before, I’ve had an interest in spanking since my teens. My first wife had no interest at all and hated the whole idea. After we split up, I met my current wife through a spanking website (yes, they actually did exist as far back as the last century) so we started on the same page - although neither of us was actually looking for a permanent relationship at the time, more for friends and people to play with. Obviously the relationship became serious very quickly and over twenty years on is still wonderful. The transition from spanking for fun and as a sexual activity to DD happened within the first year, and I’ve told that story before. So, in the unlikely and horrible event that I found myself alone again and didn’t want to stay that way, I’d probably use a spanking-friendly website as my primary tool to meet new people. A couple of weeks ago you linked to an article by a woman (Dev I think) aimed at women, encouraging them to become disciplinarians. My wife read it and largely agreed, so I’d probably start by looking for someone with the basic spanking interest and then put this article in front of her. TG

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    1. It sounds you're kind of the same page with GLM -- you kind of reject the premise that there could be a deal-killer because the odds are good that you could find a woman with at least an established interest in spanking and go from there.

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    2. Yes, relationships have a way of surprising you, they may blossom when you’re not expecting them and not come to anything when you are - mine was certainly unexpected when it started, but this is part of who I am and I think it would be at least very difficult to be with someone who didn’t share my interest, so yes - probably a deal breaker. TG

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    3. "Relationships have a way of surprising you . . ."

      For sure. Both in who you end up with and how it progresses from there. Given where we started, I don't think anyone who knew us then would have predicted where things have ended up, especially with respect to the DWC and DD aspects of our relationship.

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  13. My comments are not from the ‘IF something’s happens’ but more from ‘When it happened to me’ viewpoint. I was in a 24/7 FLR with DD household with my second wife. When the divorce was final and I met another possible partner, we dated for a while, but when it became serious, I explained my past and informed her what lifestyle I wanted. I will say a relationship without DD was a deal breaker for me. I would not have continued with the relationship without a commitment from her to at least give it a try. It panned out well and we have been living a 24/7 FLR with DD household now for over 13 years.

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    1. I just realized I used a different computer to post my entry, so my identity was not carried thru. The above entry ( the IF and When) was from me...Spanked Cowboy

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    2. I'm glad you clarified that. I almost deleted, because there is one poster who I had to ask three times to start using a name or identifier with his posts. At first I thought this was another one of his.

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  14. Taking this slightly more left-field, one solution to the contradiction that me and others have in this theatrical debate of feeling too long in the tooth to start searching but needing a specific type of partner is to have a DD but slight twist equivalent of "Passport Bro's"! Basically pitch your hat in places, countries and cultures where strong assertive woman are normal and increase your chances that way. So in my case, look in Yorkshire LOL.

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  15. My feeling is that it would be more likely to find a woman with an interest in spanking as part if the sexual part of a relationship than one willing to participate in a DD arrangement as your disciplinarian.
    Keep in mind that if she is interested in spanking it might be you foing the spanking and not her!
    I would go for that.

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    1. That option wouldn't work for me. I have zero interest in being the spanker. I'd be willing to accommodate a partner's desire for mild, erotic spankings, but I am not at all into being a disciplinarian for someone else.

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    2. I suspect that you are right, Glenmore. Though erotic spanking is considered a kink, I think it is considered to be a mild kink, and nowadays it is almost preferable to be thought of as somewhat kinky as opposed to vanilla. The term “vanilla” seems almost slightly pejorative nowadays. In my mind, for an adult to receive real disciplinary spankings is a deeper level of kink because it implies a 24/7 power imbalance that blurs the idea of consent. Like you, if my partner wanted to be on the receiving end of spankings, I would go for that.
      GH

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  16. Now that I have had DD in my life it would be very hard not to look for someone willing to take on that role with me.
    Ward

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    1. Agreed. While I know I could live without it, I also have no doubt that it's something I would want to at least try to find again.

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  17. Not long ago, I heard my wife say that not many women would do the things that she does for me. She said it with a smile and I didn't press her for details on what that meant. I could easily surmise though, that she was referring to the disciplne she administers. I have to agree with her and am grateful every day for what I have.

    Most couples have certain things they need to put on the table when dating becomes more serious, and the desire to be spanked hard as discipline would be a tough one for most people to explain. I didn't set out to have that conversation with Beth. Instead, it happened fairly naturally after she learned from my mom that spanking worked well with me as a child. I'm sure that Beth was kidding when she said it still might work, but I suggested that she could give it a try the next time my behavior warranted it. As I recall, she still chuckled, but that conversation led to my first disciplinary spanking from her several days later.

    That all happened when we were living together but not yet married. I'd have to say that spankings have gotten our marriage through some bumpy times. She turned out to be a natural disciplinarian and I am clearly the beneficiary.
    Kevin

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    1. "Not long ago, I heard my wife say that not many women would do the things that she does for me."

      Maybe, but the ease with which she went a vanilla partner to spanking you hard, based on only a random comment from your mother, suggests maybe there are lots of women who could make that jump without much prodding! :-)

      Seriously, some women do seem to take to it readily. Mine made the leap seemingly very easily, though exploring it was something I brought up and more or less requested by suggesting she take a look at the DWC website. Beth's transition seems even easier, since it sounds like she was the one who sort of suggested it by playing off of your mother's observation that spanking worked on you.

      It does make me wonder how many women are emotionally primed to take on this kind of role, even if they haven't consciously thought about it before. It's kind of the flip-side of my own experience, in which I'd literally never heard of DD before discovering the DWC but found myself morbidly obsessed with it immediately after reading the website material. Something in my background or mental makeup clearly made me susceptible to the DWC's message, even though I'd never encountered anything like it before. I wonder if some women are just wired to be disciplinarians if the situation ever presents itself, even if they've never once conceived of such a thing.

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    2. Dan notes: “I wonder if some women are just wired to be disciplinarians if the situation ever presents itself, even if they've never once conceived of such a thing.”

      I have not thought of it in that context, but my experience and, more importantly, my intuition tells me that many women in committed relationships can seem to be natural disciplinarians when challenged or provided the opportunity. ( there have been several women commenting on the blog over the years who have said as much)

      Very few women in this culture are natural disciplinarians in the sense they seek out opportunities to exercise the authority to administer corporal punishment I would go so far as to say that even women who adopt and find themselves very comfortable as disciplinarians –could also adjust to domestic situation in which they did not have the authority (just parenthetically, as we know, most F/M oriented men are not so comfortable without it)

      But that said, I expect there is a high percentage of women ( in a committed relationship) who can and have fitted into the role of serious disciplinarian when challenged or offered the opportunity --when once they probably didn’t even know that was a thing
      Alan

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    3. Alan: “Very few women in this culture are natural disciplinarians in the sense they seek out opportunities to exercise the authority to administer corporal punishment I would go so far as to say that even women who adopt and find themselves very comfortable as disciplinarians –could also adjust to domestic situation in which they did not have the authority (just parenthetically, as we know, most F/M oriented men are not so comfortable without it)”

      I think that’s right, Alan. Many disciplinary wives are reluctant to administer DD at first because it isn’t natural for them. But once they understand how deep their husband’s need is—possibly deep enough to destabilize the relationship—they embrace the role for the purely practical purpose of managing the relationship and keeping their man from straying. I believe that’s one reason why none of our partners participate in this forum. The way Dan curates this forum, it should be female friendly. But it seems not to be as important to our wives as it is to us, even though they get some benefits from the arrangement.
      GH

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  18. Dan mentions above the issue of erections-and indeed, they do seem a puzzle if one believes, as I firmly do, that a punishment spanking is just that. Erections before imminent punishment do seem to be paradoxical, and more so because most husbands under discipline come to realize that a spanking punishment really produces pain, sometimes (or often) a lot of pain. But here are four explanations that resonate with me

    1. Being spanked as an adult by an attractive partner is an inherently sexual situation, and more so if there are things attendant to it, like enforced nudity, having your lower body bared light erotic spanking or another sexual titillation. This alone explains many erections. As noted below, erections from the sexuality of the spanking milieu probably decrease as you experience more punishment spankings.

    2. You are reacting erotically to her strong exercise of authority, and the erection expresses that. The hard, cold reality of a spanking isn’t yet registering in a somewhat feverish brain -and when it does, the erection will quickly disappear.

    3. The fact that an erection almost always disappears in the first moments of a punishment spanking indicates that it is the thought of spanking and the exercise of authority that accompanies it that causes arousal. The actual spanking itself ends all that

    4. The incidence of erections and/or the strength of the erection decreases as the number of punishment spankings increases (for me, at least). This suggests that as muscle memory grows (as to what a real punishment spanking is), the erotic excitement of her exercising authority is diminished by the realization of what is about to happen. For me, one thing that stands to support this notion is that I am now more likely to get an erection while doing post-spanking corner time than before the actual spanking. My body knows the physical punishment is over, and the innate eroticism of it all kicks back in.
    Alan

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    1. That all makes sense to me, Alan. On your #1, I honestly don't know how much the attractiveness of the spanker would make a difference to me. I do get lucky that I have an attractive disciplinarian (I think most would say I "married up" when it comes to physical attractiveness), yet I don't know how much it would make a difference if I were to be spanked by someone who wasn't attractive.

      A concrete example is this video that I posted when we all exchanged videos that we thought best represented the kind of spankings we receive or want.https://www.spankingtube.com/video/64193/disciplined-for-drinking-driving

      I don't know whether I would have an erection before a spanking from that particular spanker, but it's certainly possible. (While staged, the scenario itself does seem to be reality-based. Based on the pre-spanking lecture, it sounds like the offense took place a couple of weeks before the spanking, and the spanker asks whether the spanker has been thinking about what was going to happen during that two week period. Something about that line arouses me every time she says it.)

      For me, the incidence and strength of pre-spanking erections has gone down over time, but I don't have any way to judge whether that is because the "muscle memory" has, as you said, come to remember what a real spanking is or, rather, have I just gotten older.

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    2. Dan: “That all makes sense to me, Alan. On your #1, I honestly don't know how much the attractiveness of the spanker would make a difference to me. I do get lucky that I have an attractive disciplinarian (I think most would say I "married up" when it comes to physical attractiveness), yet I don't know how much it would make a difference if I were to be spanked by someone who wasn't attractive.”

      Dan, like you I feel like I married up in terms of physical attractiveness, but when it comes to spanking, my sexual arousal is independent of the physical attractiveness of the spanker. In fact, I like pictures (and fantasies) in which the spanker is plain or even unattractive. I’m not sure why that is. Maybe it is because the idea of submitting to discipline from an unattractive woman heightens the feeling of submission. Who wouldn’t submit to a beautiful woman? But to submit to a physically unattractive disciplinarian would heighten the D/s vibe…at least in fantasy. An advantage of F/m DD in that regard, is that our wives continue to be sexy to us as they age. I have known men who left their wives for younger women. I have never even fantasized about that because my wife’s disciplinary role makes her more attractive to me than someone nubile, young woman. The hand that wields the hairbrush controls the heart.
      GH

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    3. Just a clarifying note: in using the term " attractive" I didn't mean than a wife or GF must be a stunner; much more I meant that in the role of loving disciplinarian, she becomes a stunner.

      Alan

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    4. Alan, I get that by “attractive” you didn’t mean the wife has to be a stunner. But most of us probably married the women we did because there was some superficial level of physical attractiveness that drew us to them in the first place. The thing is that, for me, spanking is so powerfully erotic that I can have an erotic response to a woman spanker, even if she doesn’t have the physical characteristics I normally find attractive. For example, my wife has always been quite slim and fit. Had she been overweight when I met her, I may never have asked her out. But my exploration of DD and FLR has widened my ideal of attractiveness to the point that if I was in the hypothetical situation of looking for another partner, I could, for example, find an overweight woman to be attractive if she had dominant personality traits that would make her a strict disciplinarian. I once read an story about a man with a very slight build who was married to a woman who was not just bigger than him, but highly overweight. The story described the way she would occasionally take him by the scruff of the neck and haul him forcibly over her lap for a pants down thrashing with a hairbrush until he would cry. The story implied that spanking her husband was the woman’s main source of sexual pleasure. For some reason, I found that story really hot!
      GH

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  19. The woman I am with never heard of DD before, and never thought about spanking as a sexual activity. After witnessing me getting a real spanking from a professional, she realized it was something I needed. The pro taught her a lot about how to spank. I don’t think she was “wired” to be a disciplinarian, but after a few years, it became obvious to both of us that we could both benefit from practicing DD, instead of just F/M spanking. It was a big step for both of us, as I had to trust her completely in order to submit to authority, and she needed to take on more of a leadership role. It seems like she took on the role not because she was wired that way, but more because she realized she was capable of doing it and that it was good for the relationship.

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  20. On the relationship between spanking and erections my experience is summed up thus: when Mrs GL gives me my fortnightly 10 minutes over her knee I have a full hard-on (as we say over here) that appears during, is never there at the start. Conversely when I go to a disciplinarian I may have physical arousal on the way to meeting them but by the time my pants are down it has gone and doesn't reappear in the course of the session. Now interestingly that lack of arousal is not a reflection of my enjoyment (nor some of thems physical attractiveness), for me it's a mental divide; Mrs GL is my better half, the disciplinarians are professional and require my respect as such. Cheers GLM

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    1. GLM, I get what you are saying about not getting an erection when you go to professional disciplinarians because they require your respect. I have sometimes thought that the reason I have never gotten erections when my wife spanks me is that it would feel disrespectful. My wife only ever spanks me for real disciplinary purposes, when she is annoyed or angry, and she has a no nonsense demeanour. Sometimes I have made the mistake of smiling during a pre-spanking scolding. I wouldn’t smile because I found the situation funny, but as a nervous response to the embarrassment of being scolded like a naughty child. When that happens, my wife is quick to pounce on it as a sign of disrespect: “Do think this is funny? No? Then wipe that smile off your face!” Although I find my wife very sexy because of her intolerance of any sign of disrespect (real or imagined), in the moment it seems to inhibit physical arousal. That seems strange to me because sexual arousal isn’t entirely under our voluntary control, but it is as though my body understands that arousal is an inappropriate response to discipline. I would, however, get an erection when I remember it later. I would also get erections sometimes when my wife would demonstrate authority in non disciplinary ways, like commanding me to do housework. Whereas getting an erection during discipline would feel disrespectful, getting aroused while obeying a command feels like an appropriate display of submission.
      GH

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    2. I got to know a few professionals when I was young, Without exception, I got aroused and almost always climaxed. It was expected, and I think they may have been disappointed if I didn't. My orgasm ended the session, and we always had a fun chat afterwards even if only briefly. Graham

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  21. I am one of those people for whom spanking has been a regular fantasy since I started to have fantasies. In some ways it was a satisfying fantasy that lived comfortably alongside more 'normal' intimate relationships. I never envisaged a route to making the fantasy or part of it any kind of reality. It was only almost by accident that it became apparent to my wife of 20 years and we have since developed a DD part to our relationship. It wasn't that there was a gap before that DD has filled; DD has added another layer, another dimension to an already 'successful' relationship.

    I see my spanking interest and DD as being related in an overlapping way. As many have said before, I enjoy living in a relationship where corporal punishment is an ever present possibility, I enjoy the anticipation and the after effects. I do not enjoy the painful and embarrassing ordeal of the actual punishment. My wife has never 'played' at it - every spanking is a solid beating which I endure (and very often regret whilst it is happening). The fantasy and reality part company in a very abrupt manner as soon as the strap lands for the first time. But very shortly after it is finished I am back to enjoying that ever present possibility!

    DD has enhanced our relationship in a number of ways, mainly around power balance, respect and patience. I have no desire or anticipation of embarking on another relationship but if that were to happen I think that the relationship would dictate whether DD was needed or appropriate, rather than DD being a pre-condition. TB

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    1. "It wasn't that there was a gap before that DD has filled; DD has added another layer, another dimension to an already 'successful' relationship." I think that's true for us, too. Though, I do think that we had challenges around some of the relationship enhancements you refer to, like the overall power balance and respect.

      "The fantasy and reality part company in a very abrupt manner as soon as the strap lands for the first time." Same here, though the parting happens a bit earlier. There usually is some hours-long between her letting me know I will be spanked and it actually happening. As soon as I know it really is going to happen, the fantasy is gone and the dread takes over.

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  22. Al wrote: “He ( Joe) claimed it was all about just being willing to ask (and explain if necessary) - and that his experience was that most mature women were quite willing to take on a disciplinary role.”

    Al made this point far above. I brought it down here because it is important for anyone seeking DD and just in or about to get into a relationship –particularly, as Al mentions, with a “mature” woman (i.e., 35 and over)

    Apparently, many males interested in DD tend to wait to try to introduce it in a newer relationship. The waiting may make sense, particularly with younger women who could be shocked by the concept of DD, assuming it is new to them. But even with younger women, earlier, when or soon after it becomes serious seems a better strategy.
    And that is because it is relatively early that most parties are receptive to stretching their horizons, open to experience, and eager to please their partner toward cementing the relationship. You are not likely to shock many women today who are 35 and older by telling them you are interested in spanking -and many, if not most, who seek a relationship with you are going to -at minimum, try to wrap their heads around it.
    Contrast that with later, when she thinks she “knows” you, and you confess your need for discipline. It's not going to be as easy for her to understand it.

    Why we didn’t reveal it earlier has been discussed many times. We are embarrassed, think we can bury the need, and are fearful of losing her or some similar catastrophic outcome of introducing disciplinary spanking. These fears are not entirely illusions. But a woman who rejects your kink needs early in the relationship is equally likely to do so later. To be honest about needs that are not going away, it is much fairer to her and you.

    Back to “Joe” in Al’s post, and sliding in Dan’s reference to one of his fraternity brothers: not asking because of feared rejection guarantees 100 percent failure, while asking despite the fear of rejection almost guarantees 100 percent success in finding the partner that is right for you.
    Alan

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    1. Alan, I agree with all this. The one point I might quibble on is: "But a woman who rejects your kink needs early in the relationship is equally likely to do so later." I do think women grow just like we do, and something that might have seemed "too weird" or transgressive at one stage may seem worth a try later. You will recall our previous contributor, Danielle. I recall her saying that early on in her marriage, she rejected her husbands FLR desires. She thought it was too kinky. Too unconventional. A decade or more later, she agreed to try it. She said that one of her bigger regrets was not being more open to it sooner, as they lost a lot of years of exploring that together.

      I honestly don't know whether my wife would have been open to DD had I known about it and been interested earlier. She was never a prude but wasn't exactly sexually adventurous during our early years. And, we married fairly young by today's standards and both undoubtedly had some maturity challenges. For us, I figure it happened when it happened, and I'm glad it did, while acknowledging that the decade before we discovered it was probably when I needed it the most. I think I could have profited from someone imposing discipline on me during that stage, though I do question whether Anne would have been ready take that on back then.

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  23. Wow my avi reappeared from nowhere! Chuffed to bits. Cheers GLM.

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