“A lot of people are afraid to say what they want. That’s why they don’t get what they want.” -Madonna
Hello all. Welcome back to the Disciplinary Couple’s Club. Our weekly gathering of men and women who are, or would like to be, in a Domestic Discipline relationship.
I hope you all had a great week. Mine was pretty uneventful, though between this week and our road trip a week ago, I definitely have some number of spankings coming. That fact highlights a somewhat interesting (to me) development.
Anne plainly intended to give me a spanking last night, but it was delayed because we had a family member over and they didn’t leave until fairly late. Anne teased me about that as we were going to bed, commenting that it had been a lucky break for me. She also made a point of commenting that she was still waiting on a journal entry with a report on my behavior. I hadn’t really been avoiding giving her one. Rather, I already knew that she was almost certainly going to spank me sometime soon, as she had already called out things that had earned one. Therefore, I’m not sure exactly why she wanted the journal entry, but she made it clear that she does.
Maybe she knows that giving her those entries that I know make a spanking even more inevitable is hard? Or, that it’s inherently humbling? Or, maybe it’s the closest we can arrange to getting sent home with a bad report card or note from the principal, given this is a consensual adult relationship?
Alan gave us a great topic
last week, which resulted in a wide-ranging conversation that covered ground
way beyond the topic itself. Honestly, I
love it when that happens. I was
thinking this morning that this blog works best the closer it gets to a real “club,”
where people come to a meeting with a particular agenda but end up just
chatting and exchanging views and life experiences. You'll see that reflected in my approach to this week's post, with a lot of the comments quoted (I hope not overly so).
Here are a few of the comments that got my attention, for various reasons:
“I know for me, it is all about having the DD relationship and about her having the authority. I don't like spankings themselves, though I do think they are hot when thinking about them in retrospect or at any other time other than when they are happening. However, if she never spanked me, the authority wouldn't be real. It is only because it has been and can still be exercised that it feels real.” – ZM
This is true for me as well. Sometimes we are guilty here of parsing motivations a bit too finely, questioning whether DD is “really” just about spanking, or more about authority, or consequences, or something else. For me, it’s really “all of the above.” The desire itself is, for me, rooted in the desire for authority, but no matter how much I might feel psychologically compelled to comply, it feels more real because that authority gets applied in very concrete, painful ways that I genuinely dread.
“When a woman spanks you in a risky location or unexpectedly when you think she absolutely will not do it, something happens to the male psyche, maybe to the male alphas particularly.” – Alan
While this hasn’t really happened with us, I get how it must be extremely powerful when it does. Being sure that something won’t happen but then it does, or not anticipating something happening and then it did, is itself a powerful demonstration that we didn’t have as much control over developments as we may have thought.
In that vein, KOJ talked about how it felt coming out of the bedroom after his wife spanked him very unexpectedly at a party:
“I saw enough looks coming down the stairs to be certain that some partygoers were aware of what had transpired. My wife agreed with that assessment but shrugged her shoulders and said it served me right.”
Again, I haven’t experienced anything like this, but I do think that if Anne ever were to take the extraordinary step of spanking me with others in earshot or, worse yet, in front of someone else, she would have zero concerns about my embarrassment.
As I related last week with the story of the 65 swats, if she is comfortable that I’ve earned what I have coming, she seems to have no concerns at all about delivering it. The one exception may be kids. There were many times I avoided earned spankings when the kids were around, even though I’ve always been clear that to me the world wouldn’t end if one of the kids did overhear a spanking. She was always concerned about whether that might lower my status in the kids’ eyes. Alan alluded to the reality of lost status in relation to being spanked within earshot of his girlfriend’s friend:
“The second and only other time I was spanked like that I did have to face her after returning to the dinner party. My ego was crushed and didn't find myself spinning any fantasies about " how she reacted". I saw that clearly and felt there was nothing to conceal or deny any longer. I had certainly lost status in her eyes because by that time she knew it was real and I could see that. But the first time, I imagined all sorts of things about her reaction because I never saw it or was told anything about it until later.”
That’s the thing about these “witness” fantasies. It seems like a loss of status is, if not inevitable, then at least a very strong likelihood. But, maybe that’s a good thing? As I replied to Alan:
“That loss of status is something I think I would really struggle with, if it were to happen in front of someone I know well. But, assuming I was being spanked for something real, perhaps losing status and having to deal with that would be a good thing.”
While I’ve never experienced an actual witness, a few months ago I talked about getting spanked after Anne thought I had behaved boorishly while out to dinner with friends and that she had told the other wife (a mutual friend who is the only one [as far as I know for sure] who knows about our DD) that she intended to spank me. Since this friend has known about this for a while, Anne telling her that she intended to spank me wasn’t horribly embarrassing, perhaps in part because I didn’t know about it until a couple of days later. Yet, I do still subtly feel a loss of some status just by virtue of that friend knowing both the behavior and the consequences.
Every once in a while, a comment takes my mind off on a tangent that reveals to me something new about my own desires and motivations. It was like that this week with this comment from T.:
“As far as witnesses go, the only “witness” to our DD is her best friend from childhood. I brought this up to her, after I heard a comment on the phone. My wife said her friend was the only one that knew about our DD. She did admit she told her she thrashes me when I’m out of line. I’ve never cared because she lives out of state. I would be open to my wife spanking me on the phone with the speaker on. I don’t know why the change on my part, because I would never want this out in the open in our lives at home.” – T
We talk so often here about witnesses, and so many people seem to be morbidly fascinated with it, I’m surprised that the possibility of someone “witnessing” by phone had never occurred to me. Of course, it still would require a willing participant on the other end of the line, which for me probably would mean someone associated with this blog in some way.
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It surprised me, because I don’t usually think of myself as a voyeur in that way, and yet something about the idea of seeing another man get a real disciplinary spanking does appeal to me. I don’t know why I’m that surprised. I clearly gravitate toward drawings and pictures of someone struggling to take a really hard spanking. But, anyway, thanks T. for giving me a little fantasy fodder and something new to think about.
With that recap out of the way, I wanted to take up KOJ on a suggestion he made for a new topic:
Dan, could that be a topic? Describe in some detail your wife's demeanor before, during, and after a spanking. – KOJ
It can be, and it is the topic for this week. But, I also wanted to connect it up to several comments we’ve gotten lately, connecting our current DD attitudes and desires to mothers and maternal authority. I see the two as connected, because it seems to me that so much of the mystique of maternal authority is tied to demeanor. KOJ made this connection explicit in another comment earlier in the week, alluding to his compliance with his wife’s orders:
I think it helped me with my wife that my strict mother brooked absolutely no "backtalk" (which included excuse-making and seeking a reprieve) when she announced a spanking. She expected absolute obedience, and I learned that anything else resulted in more punishment. So I usually gave my wife the same respect.
T. talked about his mother’s proficiency as a spanker and, in a separate entry later in the week, about her demeanor during a spanking:
“My Mother was a single parent, so she was the only one that disciplined inside the home. I was paddled at school and my best friend's parents spanked me on a few occasions. Although, they were tame compared to my Mother’s. I actually feared her spankings more than the school paddlings I never cried during a paddling at school, but sobbed when spanked by Mom. I think I wanted to Man up during the school paddlings. She spanked long and hard.
“I do wish my wife was as strict as KOJ’s was. I prefer my thrashings to be administered like in my youth. She pulls down my pants and underwear, she remains fully clothed and proceeds to thrash my bottom. I’m either dismissed or put in the corner and she carries on. As far as witnesses go, I chuckled at a few comments above. My Mother would always enter the bedroom, close the windows and pull the blinds shut prior to a spanking. My wife now does the same if it’s summer.”
GH talked a bit about his mother’s open attitude about others knowing. My how the world has changed:
"T, like your mother, mine was not shy of letting people know I was going to be spanked. I think back then it was almost a point of honour for parents to let people know that they disciplined their kids properly, and spanking was the gold standard."
In another comment, KOJ made another express connection between maternal and marital discipline and also about how reluctant we sometimes are to draw that connection:
“We never had the "meta" talk about our DD, at least not to my satisfaction. But I feared that if I probed that she might start questioning whether it did make sense for a wife to treat her husband like a son. She had told me, "I'm not your mother" and had set some parameters at the beginning of our DD (no sex afterward, no total nudity), I think to make sure I was not living out some Oedipal fantasy. Ironically, that meant she spanked almost exactly like my mother! But I made sure to never say that.”
For a long time, I didn’t bring this up at all with Anne, or even really to myself. Though I think I suspected that my need for adult discipline is rooted in a need for what I will call, for lack of a better word, “re-parenting,” I don’t think I really appreciated for some time just how much that desire for maternal authority (or at least “parental”) drives my desires.
As I’ve become more open with myself about the attraction of maternal authority, so has Anne. She has talked in positive terms about using DD to reduce me to a "teenage boy who needs a spanking from his mom." She also has compared me to a teenager who mischievously pushes buttons just to do it, then is surprised when she actually does something about it. What I seem to both crave and resist the most is consistent, no-nonsense rule-setting and direction, and that is all about demeanor.
I've noted before that part of the attraction I have to drawings that include a maternal vibe is the "getting down to business" demeanor and the sense of inevitability it conveys. Sometimes it’s the look of determination on the mother’s face.
Sometimes it’s that she doesn’t have much of an expression at all. She’s simply taking care of business. Sometimes that can be conveyed simply with body language. Everything about the way she presents herself gives the message that this is just part of being a mother and that doling out a harsh spanking doesn’t give her the slightest qualms.
That is, in a nutshell, the kind of demeanor that gets to me. Is it the demeanor Anne adopts? Sort of. Sometimes, she can be remarkably business-like. A few months ago, I talked about an incident in which she basically interrogated me in very business-like fashion about whether I agreed that certain facts about my behavior were as she related them. When I couldn’t deny it, she said very directly, “Then, you will be getting a spanking later today. I’ll let you know when,” and then dismissed me. That was very business-like, and it also felt very maternal. She wasn’t asking for my input on whether I would be spanked, but more like asking for a teenager to admit to the bad report card or the conduct described in the principal’s note.
That approach has a more maternal vibe than a long lecture. Yet, I also do want to be held to strict standards and even to be talked down to when appropriate. I don’t really associate lectures with parental discipline. When I was growing up, usually you knew what you did, they knew what you did, and things proceeded quickly from there.
Anne’s demeanor stays pretty steady during the spanking, though her approach has changed a bit over the last few years. She used to stay almost completely silent from start to finish. Now, she tends to lecture more as she goes along, pointing out again why I’m getting spanked and how I could have avoided it.
When she’s done, she usually simply tells me it’s over and that I can get up, then either goes back to whatever she was doing or gets ready for bed. Though, sex does very often follow our spankings that happen at night.
So, her demeanor usually stays pretty direct and business-like from start to finish. For the most part, I think that works. There are times when I wish she would cut loose and display more anger, but I think that would really work only if the spanking came immediately after some behavior that really did piss her off. As Mark noted, lecturing is probably very hard in general and would become more so if she were trying to recreate an emotion that likely dissipated in between the offense and punishment.
What is your wife’s demeanor before, during, and after a spanking? If you are so inclined, please share any thoughts you have about how that demeanor does or doesn’t match your memories or associations with maternal/parental discipline.
And, lest we take mothers a bit too seriously, I saw this meme recently. It cracked me up.
I hope you have a good week.
In a comment today on last week's post, Mark said: "For me I am very unlikely to repeat an action if I've been both scolded and spanked. It's sort of like if it's the former it's just nagging, and if its the spanking it is just a spanking because that is what she does (almost like a form of nagging), but tie the two together and it becomes truly "memorable."
ReplyDeleteThis is somewhat similar to what I meant when I talk above about how a friend knowing about *both* the behavior and that it was going to be spanked for it led to me feeling more embarrassed and experiencing a perceived loss of status. Somehow, the combination of the friend knowing about the bad behavior (she witnessed it) and knowing I was going to be spanked for it, caused way more embarrassment that if she'd witnessed the bad behavior but didn't know I was going to be spanked for it, or if she knew I was going to be spanked but didn't know about the bad behavior that led to it. There's something about the combination of being taken to task (in this case indirectly by my wife telling our friend she was upset with me and was going to deal with it), and then spanked for it, that makes it more emotional and, as Mark says, more "memorable."
Dan, I totally get why the combination of the friend witnessing your bad behaviour and knowing you are going to be spanked for it is more embarrassing than either one of those things on its own. We all occasionally behave in ways we regret. If we think we have been a jerk, we may feel embarrassed at someone witnessing it, but if we are really ashamed, we can repair the loss of status by apologizing for our behaviour. On the other hand, if a friend knows that Anne spanked you but doesn’t know why, that’s a bit embarrassing, but she might simply think you and Anne are into spanking as a kink. As far as kinks go, spanking is almost mainstream. But if the friend sees you behave badly and knows that Anne is going to spank you for it, she is going to know the spanking is more than just a kink. She is going to know that you are a grown man who gets punished by his wife the way a child gets (or used to get) punished by his mother. In that case, apologizing to the woman wouldn’t restore your pre-spanking status because she would ever after see you as a man who gets spanked like a boy when he misbehaves. In fact, there is something infantilizing about the very notion of being judged to have “misbehaved”. Adults can behave inappropriately or immaturely, and we generally think of that as “being a jerk”. We don’t think of adults as “misbehaving”, but if you get spanked for your behaviour, your behaviour is being judged like that of a child. Does that make sense or am I overthinking it?
DeleteGH
GH, I don't necessarily think you're overthinking it, but parts of your analysis resonate and parts don't. I think it may be more straightforward in that it firmly establishes that a hierarchy exists and that I'm lower than my wife in it. I think we usually see our couple friends as equals. I had told my friend about our DD relationship long ago, but there is knowing something and there is *knowing* something. It's like when you are a kid and you know that your friends get spanked, because you all do. That knowledge causes a completely different feeling than if you are present when your friend is caught doing something bad and his/her mother lets him/her know in front of you that a spanking is coming. The next time you see them, you know it happened. In my experience, that makes the whole thing so much more concrete and elevates the feelings about to a very different level.
DeleteI experienced this, too, but it wasn't absolutely clear that a spanking had occurred. My wife once made me apologize to her sister for rudeness, after which she said to her sister something like, "He and I had quite the discussion, and it was painfully obvious to him that he was in the wrong." I remember being totally embarrassed to hear the word "painfully," which of course I took literally. Her sister just nodded, thanked my wife, and accepted my apology. I imagined she knew I had been spanked, but I was never certain. My wife loved being a bit mysterious.
DeleteKOJ
“…but there is knowing something and there is *knowing* something. It's like when you are a kid and you know that your friends get spanked, because you all do. That knowledge causes a completely different feeling than if you are present when your friend is caught doing something bad and his/her mother lets him/her know in front of you that a spanking is coming. The next time you see them, you know it happened. In my experience, that makes the whole thing so much more concrete and elevates the feelings about to a very different level.”
DeleteThat makes sense, Dan. It’s true that when I was a kid, I was aware that most of the neighbourhood kids got spanked. Thus, there was nothing especially embarrassing about the fact that I was also disciplined that way. However, when other kids knew that I was in for a bare bottom spanking for some specific thing, like getting in trouble at school, that was intensely embarrassing for me. And, of course, my sisters would revel in letting other kids know “G’s going to get it!” Maybe that’s where my fascination with witnesses comes from.
GH
For us the most awkward moments are right before and after the spanking.
ReplyDeleteDuring the spanking she is all business , much like you described Anne , but does pause to lecture and scold which makes the spanking a lot longer than I would like.
Thare is hesitation when she calls me in for a spanking and also when I undress. Sometimes I'll undress quickly to get on with it or wait for her to order me.
Afterwards while she remains sitting looking quite pleased I'm a bit unsure what to do.
My male pride tells me not to show any reaction, as if it didn't hurt that badly , but she knows it did so I don't fool her.
She liked to tease me after about how red my butt is and if I am sitting uncomfortably after.
I don't feel any maternal link as most of my discipline was in a school setting .
We do have a mutual good friend whom I suspect knows that she spanks me , just by some beiledcomments my wife tends to make when we get together with her that hint I may be in for a spanking.
As we are all very close I don't think I would have a problem if she 'officially' knew.
We once aborted a spanking when she stopped by unannounced at our house one day but I don't think she heard anything.
My wife is careful to lock the front door now just in case ever since , but interestingly for me I would take the risk.
I was even going to suggest my wife make her threats more direct and even mention the 'S' word , or even mention it myself to her.
My embarrassment about her knowing just isn't there anymore and there is no doubt she would tease me if she knew.
"We once aborted a spanking when she stopped by unannounced at our house one day but I don't think she heard anything. My wife is careful to lock the front door now just in case ever since , but interestingly for me I would take the risk."
DeleteThat is such a geographically-dependent possibility. I've lived in areas of the country where it's not at all uncommon for people to just drop by. Where we live now, it's very uncommon.
For us it's not really geographical as we are very close with this couple , almost family and they live walking distance , so we don't bother announcing or knocking when we drop by each other's places.
DeleteWe just open the door , walk in and call out if they don't hear us.Same for them .
I'm surprised there haven't been other close calls , although one time I came in to their house and after a pause she came to the door in her bathrobe and hair wet and said she was in the shower.
He didn't appear until after she returned and changed so I suspect I may have interrupted an 'intimate moment'.
The only ones who don't knock and wait are our kids. And, we tend to get an early warning even when they come by, as our dogs go nuts.
DeleteMy partner is business-like during maintenance spankings. They are part of our agreement. She will have emotions during a punishment spanking, complete with scolding. There are no maternal feelings or connections to our discipline. I am an adult who needs discipline and she is providing it. We do use only bare bottom spanking which is the same as my childhood spankings which were on the bare. Several of our friends are aware of our lifestyle and I have been spanked in front of many of them. She did pull me into an adjacent room at a friends home once where I was spanked which everyone heard. She returned to the group as if nothing had occurred. As for me, my face was as red as my ass.
ReplyDelete"She did pull me into an adjacent room at a friends home once where I was spanked which everyone heard. She returned to the group as if nothing had occurred. As for me, my face was as red as my ass."
DeleteWas this with the friends who already knew about your lifestyle?
Some were lifestyle friends, some friends who were unaware while others were complete strangers to us.
DeleteGot it.
DeleteMy wife maintained a strict demeanor from the moment she announced a spanking until she gave me permission to pull up my pants. This was very consistent. While strict, it was not uncaring. She made it clear that this was for my benefit, to make me a better husband, father, gentleman, person, etc. That was always the goal, and she would mention it virtually every time. So that felt very maternal to me. My mother was much the same way. Strict but with a loving vibe.
ReplyDeleteWhat would sometimes be different with my wife's demeanor was her tone of voice, depending on how irritated she was by my behavior. Most often she was very matter-of-fact in her tone. "You did this, you deserve to be punished, get your pants down." Business-like, clipped voice, no-nonsense, let's get to it. As I have mentioned, the spanking was full force from the first swat and as fast as she could swing. The scolding could vary from none at all to several minutes. Sometimes she would slow down during the spanking to ask a scolding question: "Have you learned your lesson?" "Yes, Ma'am!" When she was done she would push me off her lap and tell me to get my pants up.
But somehow I didn't feel like she didn't care, even with this all-business demeanor. Maybe it was because she was my wife and I knew she loved me. Maybe if it had been someone else, like a professional, I would have felt them uncaring, I don't know.
At other times, when she was truly irritated by my behavior, her tone was more strident, more exasperated. Her voice was higher and harsher. She wasn't yelling, but close. Her disappointment was very evident, and for that reason it was harder for me to take than the matter-of-fact approach. The words she said during the scolding, and the harshness of the spanking itself, were pretty much the same. But the vibe was clearly different. She wasn't as loving. A couple of times she was so mad that when she pushed me off her lap she told me, "Get out of my sight."
I felt more chastened during those times. So even though I disliked it more than a typical spanking, it probably was really effective. Her disappointment added to the punishment because I hated disappointing her. Just like a son hates disappointing his mother.
Even when she was angry, it still felt like maternal authority to me. After all, mothers do get mad at their kids (and husbands). I know that whole thing about not spanking in anger, but in reality it happens a lot and that doesn't mean the mother doesn't love the child (or husband) being punished. And her anger did not mean the spanking was harsher. I would have marks and bruises regardless.
What did make a difference was her choice of implement. She primarily used two: Hairbrush and bath brush. The bath brush was reserved for repeat offenses. It was MUCH worse. She would give about the same number of swats with about the same force -- she always raised the implement over her head and brought it down seemingly as hard as she could. I would be twice as bruised by the bath brush and sometimes turned into a blubbering mess before I got to quiet surrender, which was what she liked to see.
The other thing about her demeanor was aftercare. Often she would hold me lovingly, caressing me while I recovered. She would tell me it was all over and I was forgiven and the slate was clean. Those were the most wonderful times, and very maternal. They followed the matter-of-fact spankings. She might even put me back over her knee and spread Arnica gel on my bruised bottom. I found this to be a truly loving act on her part. I felt forgiven, loved, cared for.
When she was angry, I didn't get the loving aftercare, which I absolutely craved. So the irritated spankings were triple punishment: the spanking itself, her disappointment, and no aftercare.
That's it for now regarding her demeanor.
KOJ
I forgot to comment on the differences between my wife's spankings and my mother's. My wife's were much harder. My mother did not typically bruise me. My mother also didn't use the bath brush. She used a hairbrush, a wooden spoon, a sandal, whatever she could grab. They both spanked hard and fast and on the bare bottom. My mother often would take down my pants herself but leave my underpants up until I was over her knee, so that my genitals were not bared and my underpants stayed up in the front. My wife would usually order me to take down my pants, by which she meant trousers and underwear so that my genitals were exposed. She often would lecture me with her seated and me standing in front of her, so that my genitals were facing her in an embarrassing pose. I would shrivel right up!
DeleteBoth of them lectured in similar manners. Sometimes I heard my wife say the exact same things that my mother had said! It helped turn me into that naughty little boy about to be spanked.
My mother didn't do as much aftercare. She would say I was forgiven, but she didn't cuddle me on her lap nearly as often as my wife did. She didn't spread Arnica gel on my bottom. There was much less physical contact or emotional support after the spanking.
In some ways, my wife's spankings were MORE maternal than my mother's!
KOJ
"Most often she was very matter-of-fact in her tone. "You did this, you deserve to be punished, get your pants down." Business-like, clipped voice, no-nonsense, let's get to it." This is sort of Anne's style, though it tends to be slow and often involves her asking me why I'm being punished. Honestly, that doesn't work as well for me as what you seem to be describing, i.e. a one-way discussion with your wife telling you, in short, clipped, terms why you are about to be spanked.
DeleteI agree that parents often did/do spank in anger, and I think it would be unrealistic to think otherwise. I have very little memory of my mother's spankings (they ended when I was pretty young), but I think she did show anger. In fact, given her personality, it would be very surprising if she didn't. Interestingly, I've had a couple of spanking dreams she has appeared in, including one in which she was planning to spank me. In both dreams, she was very business-like.
Regarding implements, the one I know Anne will use every single time is the bath brush. At least that's been the case since she bought one for herself. But, I'm not really sure whether she raises it as high as you depict. (I was thinking just yesterday that maybe I should ask her to video a spanking so I can really see it.)
We've never been into aftercare, though we do generally have sex after and it involves a fair amount of talking about what just happened. So, I guess that is a form of aftercare.
KOJ, I did have one off-topic question for you. I brought it up in last week's post but you may not have seen it. You commented that Anne seems to be going through what your wife did post-retirement, with inhibitions about using and displaying her authority dropping. My question was, did that happen very abruptly, or did it take a long time?
Dan,
DeleteIt was shockingly abrupt with my wife, with no explanation. She must have been thinking about it for a long time. She had been hiding her authority over me due to concern about both of our careers. I had no idea that she wanted to display her authority, or at least not hide it. But suddenly she was making the same demands and comments in public that she did in private. I was taken aback. Eventually we talked about it. She was her matter-of-fact self. "You'll just have to accept it like you do your spankings," she said.
I came to realize that power is more powerful the more people know about it!
KOJ
KOJ, thanks for that explanation. It does sound like Anne's has been happening at a slower, more iterative pace than was the case with your wife. The difference may be in your statement that, "She must have been thinking about it for a long time. She had been hiding her authority over me due to concern about both of our careers." I don't think that was really the case with Anne. I think that it wasn't until after retirement that she started to realize how much the career concerns had been holding her back, and after that realization, she started opening up a bit at a time. It hasn't yet gone anywhere near as far as your wife took it, but you never know.
DeleteHer modified "coming out" (she didn't actually say she spanked me but she made all kinds of euphemistic comments) definitely improved my behavior. I had to be on my best behavior when I knew that in front of anyone she might say, "Do you need an attitude adjustment?" Or "You know what's in my purse!"
DeleteKOJ
I can definitely see how those post-coming-out threats could be very effective at keeping you in line.
DeleteWhere you and I seem to be very, very similar is our proclivity for having a few drinks and becoming very assertive, particularly about politics. It's a pretty hard thing to break if both socializing over drinks and talking about politics are big parts of who you are, which they always have been with me. I can see why it took your wife starting to exercise very firm control to make any kind of change on that front.
I think this was where I was the most stubborn and earned the most spankings -- for alcohol-fueled political comments.
DeleteI once argued with her that I had the right to express my opinion. She agreed but said that when I had been drinking I often became sarcastic or rude or both, and she was not going to tolerate that.
KOJ
It's so hard to talk to a Trumper because they are immune to facts or logic. So sarcasm or statements like "you're being duped" would come easily. Spankings would follow. She stated that truth is no defense for rudeness.
DeleteKOJ
While I think Anne's issue is sometimes about being sarcastic or overly forceful in voicing my opinions, it's more that she strongly prefers that I avoid the discussion altogether if we are in a group with known Trumpers. Which is hard, because Trumpers' defining quality is being "in your face" about being Trumpers. My view has been (and remains) that if they bring up Trump or their political views, I should be able to swat them down with at least as much force as they expressed them. But, largely because I know Anne dislikes it, I have tried to moderate and even to bite my tongue.
DeleteKOJ, I also wanted to comment on this: "I came to realize that power is more powerful the more people know about it!"
DeleteThanks for providing that perspective, because I've wondered whether, if Anne became more open about authority, it would make me appreciate it more, respect it more, even fear it . . . or would it become like some other kinks where once you've experienced it, it loses its emotional power.
It didn't dissipate for me because it wasn't a kink. It was very real and she was expressing it with people I might have preferred not know. This led to comments like one of my good friends saying, "I had no idea how pussy-whipped you are." I had a pretty good retort: "I bet your wife wishes you were more like me."
DeleteAs this went on there was more emotional power to her authority, not less.
KOJ
Sorry, I shouldn't have described it as a kink. More like a "what if" or object of fantasy (morbid or otherwise), that reflects us wondering what something might be like if it actually happened.
DeleteMy Mothers spankings were a ritual.
ReplyDeleteShe did have a temper and would usually raise her voice during a spanking. For the most part, all of our spankings were bare. She followed the church path of a child should be shamed and humiliated during a punishment and show remorse. We were spanked long and hard, but now abusively. Looking back, I never felt unloved or thought it went too far. After the spanking, my Mother would hug and kiss us and tell her how much she loved us and did it for our own good. My wife’s ritual is a bit different depending on how angry she is. She has spanked in anger a few times; and after the thrashing, told to get out of her sight. At other times, she has told
me she loves and cares for me. She says, “did you learn your lesson”. She is very maternal like at times. This is also what I need and crave. I do wish for more consistency as stated before. My wife has given a few thrashings that I considered to be a prefect DD punishment. It was get up to the room, take your pants and underwear down, bend over, she thrashes me with the strap while scolding and leaves me there to think about my transgressions.
T
"My wife has given a few thrashings that I considered to be a prefect DD punishment. It was get up to the room, take your pants and underwear down, bend over, she thrashes me with the strap while scolding and leaves me there to think about my transgressions."
DeleteThis is sort of what I meant in my comment to KOJ about how business-like his wife is, while Anne can sometimes draw the lecture out and asks me questions. There is something about the much more abrupt, one-sided approach that feels both more forceful and more maternal.
As I said to KOJ, I don't remember much about my mother's spankings. But, I am pretty sure all were on the bare, as that was pretty much the way it was done by all the parents in our community.
Dan. I like the straight forward business like approach. I love the maternal aspect my wife delivers and she will drop comments to me the next few days. In passing, “by the way how’s your bottom”. I’ll respond “very sore”. She replies, “good you deserve it and there will be more of it coming.”
ReplyDeleteT
I think those kinds of observations and inquiries about the state of one's bottom are surprisingly maternal, even though I think with mothers the comments tend to be more "predictive," in that they are about what is *going to* happen to you, more than about what *did*.
DeleteMy wife also liked to make teasing comments or even have me take down my pants and show her the bruises. She said she wanted to see her "handiwork." She also would ask me why I had been spanked, and if I couldn't remember I got a repeat performance because she said it didn't "take."
DeleteKOJ
DCC
ReplyDeleteI wrote a response to last week’s post this morning before I realized a new post was up. If you don’t mind, I am going to repeat it here because it relates to the question of demeanour. The context was that Brett had commented that he didn’t see why a disciplinary wife would find it difficult to give a good scolding, since it should come naturally if the discipline is real and no play acting is required. (I hope that is an accurate paraphrase, Brett). I responded as follows:
Brett, an adult authority figure (mother, teacher, etc) scolding a naughty child doesn’t have any difficulty because they feel their authority is real and entirely natural, so they don’t feel self-conscious about it. A wife providing DD to a husband who has asked for it may be inhibited by self consciousness because treating her husband like a naughty child may not feel entirely natural. Therefore, no matter how real the reason for discipline, it may feel like role playing. As I think about it, my wife is probably good at scolding because she wasn’t inhibited about criticizing me or expressing displeasure even before we had a FLR. The difference is that before FLR, I would always get defensive and argue with her. Once she was able to combine scolding with spanking, on the other hand, there were no more arguments, so she could scold me with gusto. My wife also had a career as a teacher, and from what I have heard, and can easily believe, she was a no nonsense teacher who ran a tight ship. There was no corporal punishment in schools where we live, so DD is different than school discipline in that sense, but I suppose her career contributed to the no-nonsense demeanour she brings to DD.
A couple of additional points, when I say my wife is good at scolding, I don’t mean that she yells at me. She doesn’t have to raise her voice because she has a way of conveying displeasure in an incisive, measured way. In fact, she can scold me in a low voice so as not to draw attention in public places. She also uses questions and rhetorical questions to great effect to make me feel ashamed of myself for disappointing her. Maybe the way she is able to convey displeasure in such a calm, controlled manner comes from being a naturally strict teacher in a time when corporal punishment was no longer permitted. She can make me feel spanked with words alone. Come to think of it, I am not sure whether her scolding amplifies her spankings or her spankings amplify her scolding.
GH
GH, my wife is an elementary school teacher and I can vouch that she is very effective at scolding and lecturing. I don't think she has a reputation for being especially strict, but all teachers must develop those skills along the way.
DeletePrior to my spanking, Beth starts with a good scolding. No yelling, but she leaves no doubt about her disappointment in me. My lecture comes after she has sat down with hairbrush in hand. I have to lower my pants and underwear as I stand in front of her. With everything on display, I'm required to look my wife in the eye while she explains why I am being punished. It's very humiliating to have to answer her questions and repeat back to her why I'm getting the hairbrush.
Kevin
"My lecture comes after she has sat down with hairbrush in hand." As I said to KOJ, I imagine that being lectured while she holds the implement probably makes the lecture more powerful.
Delete
DeleteKevin wrote: “Prior to my spanking, Beth starts with a good scolding. No yelling, but she leaves no doubt about her disappointment in me. My lecture comes after she has sat down with hairbrush in hand. I have to lower my pants and underwear as I stand in front of her. With everything on display, I'm required to look my wife in the eye while she explains why I am being punished. It's very humiliating to have to answer her questions and repeat back to her why I'm getting the hairbrush.”
Kevin, it’s interesting that our wives are both teachers and have a very similar scolding style. We’ve been discussing a “maternal” style of DD here. Maybe for our wives it is more of a teacher style. And I react to scolding the way you do. Concerning the effect of scolding, Mark made a couple of interesting comments in last week’s discussion.
“Interestingly as she gets more confident, I find myself quite unconfident and not sure what to do or say until directed (rabbit in headlights)... and this is where I find myself doing as instructed, lowering pants, bending over etc. But the time between the scolding starting and the instructions is very uncomfortable for me. It is really weird.”
“When scolded I get stuck in a loop of thinking of excuses, wondering what is going to happen (is she going to punish), thinking on how this is embarrassing etc. All of this thought means that I'm incapable of response. It would be a lot worse with an audience.”
That is exactly how it is for me. There is a rabbit in headlights effect. Sometimes I don’t know where to look, I feel so embarrassed, and my wife will say, “Look at me when I’m speaking to you.” My wife scolded prior to FLR, but back then I would become argumentative and push back. But once your wife has given you a bare bottom paddling, the balance of power between you shifts forever. I think my wife noticed that right away when we embarked on FLR and took pleasure in scolding me, knowing I could no longer talk back.
GH
GH,
DeleteThis happened to us too. She would say the same exasperated things she said before DD. But back then I would come right back and it would be an argument. After DD, I would listen with my mouth closed. At first it was because I feared a harsher spanking if I said anything. But eventually it became internalized, where I could only respond if she asked a question.
What do you call a one-sided argument? Scolding!
Like your wife, she also required me to make eye contact while scolding. Standing there with my pants down, soon to go over her knee fir a hard spanking, with her staring into my eyes as she scolded with the hairbrush in her hand ... She was deep into my soul and had the ultimate authority! It was like she was 10 feet tall and I was an inch.
And yet ... and yet ... I felt comfort that I had no option but to obey. She was God-like Mother and I was her beloved but naughty son.
KOJ
"What do you call a one-sided argument? Scolding!"
DeleteGood point!
KOJ, that’s a great line about a one-sided argument being a scolding.
DeleteThat reminds me of an incident from early in our FLR that I could have cited as “the moment” in last week’s discussion. At that point Renée had only spanked me once or twice. I had done something to displease her, and she was scolding me. I had to restrain my impulse to argue with her because I am by nature proud and argumentative. And the thing is, when you give into the impulse to argue, you can easily convince yourself that you are in the right, even though you aren’t. But if you listen instead of arguing, and submit to interrogation, it is humbling because you can see that the criticisms are valid. Because I felt ashamed, I tried to avoid eye contact. She told me to look at her when she was talking to me. I looked at her, and for some reason I sort of laughed, not because I found the situation funny, but as an involuntary response to embarrassment. Had my wife been less confident of her justification for chastising me, that laugh could have spelled the end of our brief excursion into FLR. Instead, it made her angrier, and she said, “Do you think this is funny?” I said I didn’t, so she asked why I laughed. I apologized for laughing and told her honestly that I wasn’t sure why I laughed, but that I didn’t intend it as disrespect. She looked me sternly in the eyes for a moment, and I had to fight the urge to look away. Finally, she said, “You know what? You can go to the bedroom and wait for me with your pants down.” I almost felt a sense of relief at being released from the scolding to obey an order. In the bedroom I assumed the position in which she had previously spanked me, bent over the end of the bed with a folded pillow under my hips to raise my bottom, my pants and underwear around my knees. I don’t know how long she made me wait: probably not long, but it felt like a long time because it is incredibly shaming to wait in that position. When she finally came in, I think she was amused herself to see me like that, and she teased me, “My, don’t you look cute with your little bum bum bared for a paddling.” Then she got right back to scolding, starting with the rhetorical question that has since become standard, “Don’t you feel ashamed of yourself, needing to be spanked at your age?” She then proceeded to spank me with the recently acquired hairbrush, lecturing me and forcing me to answer shaming questions as she went. The spanking hurt, but not terribly. The impact on my sense of pride was more severe. She ended the way she usually has since then: “Do I have to spank you some more, or have I made my point?” I quickly assured her that I would do better and she didn’t need to spank me more. I always do. How else can one answer that question? “Good,” she said, “now pull up your pants, you’ve got work to do.” Then she walked out. That’s how spankings generally end. She has never done anything like aftercare, but I suppose she doesn’t beat me severely enough that I need aftercare.
GH
All so true! I haven't yet had the "look at me when I'm speaking to you!" but in my discomfort I definitely don't know where to look. I expect this in my future.
DeleteGH,
DeleteYour wife is very good at humbling remarks!
My wife was too, though maybe not quite as good as yours.
There were times when my wife ordered me to work right after a spanking, especially if I was just spanked for missing a chore. Not getting aftercare was a big disappointment and added to the punishment. But she was in charge!
KOJ
KOJ, imagine if a woman scolded like my wife and spanked like yours! —GH
DeleteAll of the above comments ring so true with me. GH, I think our experience with teacher wives must be quite similar. My spankings from Beth are quite maternal - pants down/over the knee/hairbrush was absolutely my own mom's approach. But when she scolds and lectures it's with what we call her "teacher voice". That tone, along with the forced eye contact and required responses, is truly humbling.
DeleteIt could be that I'm drawn to the teacher type, as a previous long term girlfriend was also an education major. I wasn't surprised to see on Facebook that in the fall she will be starting her new position as Assistant Principal at a middle school. Even though she never disciplined me, I can easily imagine her in that role, and enjoy thinking about it.
Kevin
Now that she's retired, I guess it's OK to share that Anne too was a teacher.
DeleteThe combination of spanking and scolding stripped me of all pretense. I was a naughty little boy ball of clay that she could mold into the man she wanted me to be (and I wanted to be).
ReplyDeleteKOJ
I think channeling the maternal energy is an important part of giving a DD style spanking. Sometimes I'll make it explicit by telling my husband to call me "Mommy" during his spanking. I think some guys think that freaks women out. When you're already taking that disciplinary road with your husband, the "mommy" thing is very adjacent, and embarrasses him, and I actually enjoy the dynamic as well. Having him "take the breast" as aftercare reinforces the dynamic, as does a gentle handjob: a handjob delivered in cooing, babyish tones, workaday, not sexual, staying clothed. A way of saying "all is forgiven" for a big boy.
ReplyDeleteHey Julie. Welcome back. You're right, I would assume making the maternal vibe too clear would freak some women out. Though, while my wife and I haven't taken it nearly as far as you're describing, I was surprised that she didn't freak out more as I got more open about the reality of DD having a maternal vibe and me wanting it that way to a big extent. You're probably right that the simple reality is that the two are adjacent, whether we like admitting it or not.
DeleteJulie, you just described my biggest fantasy.
DeleteHey Julie, lovely to see you here. I think that my wife would freak out if I called her "mummy" and it's not my thing... I suspect because the origin of my spanking needs was boarding school punishment rather than maternal. Having said that, post spanking I really desire all of the maternal care that you highlighted and on a good day pre spanking my wife is like a mother or teacher.
DeleteI suspect, whether admitted or not, the Mommy thing lies at the heart of the male fetish to be spanked by a woman (as is the Daddy thing for women). Maybe subconscious. Definitely Freudian!
DeleteJulie, it's possible, though I suspect the motivations vary a lot. I admit the Daddy thing has always weirded me out a bit, though I also admit that's probably a little hypocritical. For me, when it comes to female authority, the emphasis is more on the "authority" than the gender of who is wielding it. Though, I don't consider my kink a "fetish," in anything like the true psychological sense of that word. I didn't develop it until I was well in my late 30s, which would be pretty atypical of a fetish, and my sex life was fine without it for 20 years and undoubtedly would be again if for some reason DD stopped being a thing for us.
DeleteIn my case also the discipline could, I believe, from either male or female; it's just that I wouldn't hand that power to someone other than my wife. Maybe Freudian but if so I'm not aware of it. I also love the CFNM thing.
DeleteI think there are other subconscious motivations as well, not only that one. But it's almost definitional that we are driven subconsciously to want this thing we do. Just ask non-spankos if they would crave being embarrassed, treated like a child, and have their buttocks struck until deep red or even black and blue. They will look at you as if you are insane. 😊
DeleteVery true. Though, the one's professing to being the most turned off by it are probably the ones into all sorts of stuff that I'd think was weird AF.
DeleteI think you are right, Julie, that we are often driven by subconscious forces we don’t understand, and if pressed to explain our motivations we come up with rational explanations that may be false. I have no idea why I am a submissive masochist, but something is driving me.
DeleteGH
That sounds like kinky roleplay to me. Definitely not our thing. I would never have called her Mommy, nor would she have wanted me to. But chacun a son gout.
ReplyDeleteKOJ
KOJ, I agree with you, I don’t want to call my wife Mommy. Although I love the maternal aspect to our DD, my wife is still my wife. I agree that it feels like role playing to me. I’m not knocking Julie, I’ve been to her blog. It’s just not my thing, I feel it’s more kink driven and has some Bdsm elements to it.
DeleteT
Same here, T and KOJ. I would hate to have to call my wife Mommy, and I am pretty sure it would freak my wife out if I initiated the kind of Oedipal kink Julie describes. That being said, if my wife actually did the things Julie described, it is possible that my embarrassment and discomfort might turn me on. CFNM is a big part of my spanking kink, and having my bottom bared while my wife is fully clothed, and sexually disinterested, is exciting. The idea of being given a hand job when my wife is fully clothed and treating me like a boy instead of a man is…interesting.
DeleteGH
I personally believe all adult spanking is kinky roleplay to some extent. In my case, it's explicitly that when I spank my husband; but it's more a lifestyle/discipline thing when he spanks me. But despite it being very real in my case (sometimes too real!) there is no doubt that there is a huge kinky component. You can check out my description of my most recent (very real) spanking where I describe the heightened sexuality that goes along with both the anticipation and the recollection of it.
DeleteI am VERY skeptical of any man who craves and accepts bare bottom spankings from his wife who then claims there is no aspect of kink at all, only discipline. To me, that sounds like part of the kink is to never admit it's kinky.
I accepted spankings but never craved them and was never turned on by them, so not a kink. I eventually realized that I craved maternal authority, and spanking was a key way my wife demonstrated her authority. I don't consider that a kink, either. It was a relationship.
DeleteKOJ
Koj, I agree that I’ve never craved the kind of thrashings my wife delivers when she is mad. Unlike Julie, my wife would never want to get spanked and for that matter, I have zero desire to spank her. She despised being spanked growing up and has noticed a massive improvement in my attitude due to her “thrashings”. Like I’ve stated, I prefer zero sex after a spanking. For me it’s about discipline and coming to terms with my transgressions.
DeleteThere may be some “kink” to DD depending on the relationship, but hers would be on the opposite spectrum of ours.
T
I do crave discipline, and there is undoubtedly an erotic energy associated with it for me. But, it's tied to discipline, accountability, penance, etc., and not to spanking per se. The spanking is more the means to an end. It's like the line I quoted from ZM in this post to the effect that it is the authority and accountability that are at the core, but they wouldn't feel real if they weren't backed up with the actual pain from a spanking.
DeleteLast night, I got the first of the spankings I said in this post that I knew I had earned. What's amazing to me is how much I *do* crave the DD lifestyle, but it's like a day or two after each spanking I develop total amnesia about just how much those first few strikes with a bath brush truly hurt. It was just unbelievably painful, probably because it had been a month or so since my last one.
Dan, I'm being incredibly careful to never mention bath brushes around my wife. They certainly scare me!
DeleteBath brushes are definitely way up there on the pain scale. I think a heavy paddle can hurt more, but I also tend to numb faster from it.
DeleteI didn't fear the hairbrush. I feared the bath brush. She reserved it for repeat offenses (usually the third instance) where the hairbrush had apparently not been "effective" the first or second time. A lot of my behavior changed in the longterm after a bath brush correction.
Delete(But not alcohol-fueled political commentary.)
KOJ
KOJ, I think that if my wife spanked like yours, I would become a teetotaler. ;-)
DeleteGH
I have a demeanor question for those of you who have had sex immediately or soon after a punishment. Did your wife maintain her in-charge demeanor? Did she initiate? Did she take a dominant role? Was it different from sex without punishment?
ReplyDeleteFor me, without spanking as a kink, I was not at all ready for sex right away. I felt chastened and subdued, not aroused. The shortest time frame for us was two hours after punishment. In such cases she did initiate (whereas I normally would) and she was a bit more aggressive but with a loving demeanor, definitely not her take-charge punishment demeanor.
I am curious how sex after punishment worked for others and have not seen that discussed here before.
KOJ
We do very frequently have sex soon after DD. I don't think her demeanor changes very much. But, mine does. Sex after spanking with us usually ends up involving some discussion, while lying in bed, about what happened, what led to it, and about our thoughts on her taking on a more and more dominant role. It's usually me kicking that off. I guess you could say I get more chatty after a spanking but it's more about I more openly display a vulnerable side.
DeleteBut, I do think DD has changed Anne's overall sexuality. She is more vocal and more likely to initiate. And, we recently had sex after she had had a couple of drinks (she doesn't drink that often and kind of a lightweight), and she got very vocal about wanting to be in charge and to be the aggressor.
We don’t always have sex after a spanking. I actually would prefer no sex after punishment. With my wife, it varies, at times there is zero sex and I’m sent to do other projects etc. A few times, I pleasured her orally and was sent to bed. A few times I’m allowed to climax with a hand job only. When she is not as mad and turned on, we make love. I’ve always said that after a good thrashing, I feel our bond is much closer. My wife has never been the type to take the dominant role in the bedroom, even after a severe spanking. Dan, I am a bit like you, I become a bit chatty with my encouragement by telling her how much I need chastisement. When we do make love, I have said during it, that I need to be spanked more often and harder. She becomes hotter and more worked up during our love making. My preference would be zero sex after punishment for 24 hours, but I will never deny my wife in the moment.
DeleteT
"I become a bit chatty with my encouragement by telling her how much I need chastisement. When we do make love, I have said during it, that I need to be spanked more often and harder."
DeleteSame here -- reinforcing that what she gave me was what I need more of is a big part of the conversation. Where we differ is that I almost always want that intimacy right after a spanking.
Regarding wanting it more often and harder, I'm definitely in one of those moods right now where I feel a strong need to be reined in hard. But, it fluctuates a lot from time to time. I'm convinced it's my version of being hormonal.
Dan,
DeleteIt seems as if you are getting more and more of what you have always wanted from your wife!
KOJ
KOJ, that was certainly true for a while. But, it kind of tapered off, not from either of us losing interest but just the bad luck of injuries, illnesses, etc. breaking what had been a good trend.
DeleteFor us it is not uncommon for her to order me to eat her and to masturbate after. Seems to be after she has caned me which she has admitted is her preferred method of punishing. We never have sex after.
DeleteRegarding us and sex after a spanking, my wife leaves her in-charge demeanour behind as soon as she finishes the spanking. In terms of initiating, it is more the case that I initiate things, knowing that my spanking will come first and sex will then come. The general underlying principle is that my wife deals with whatever has accumulated since the last spanking, meaning the sun doesn't go down on her anger and when we have sex after a spanking, everything has been dealt with and we start with a clean slate. Does that make sense?
DeleteJ
J,
DeleteSo the idea of a clean slate draws you together and leads to sex? That's interesting. So the spanking itself is not arousung for either of you but rather the feeling of having ended conflict?
KOJ
"The general underlying principle is that my wife deals with whatever has accumulated since the last spanking, meaning the sun doesn't go down on her anger and when we have sex after a spanking, everything has been dealt with and we start with a clean slate. Does that make sense?"
DeleteIt makes sense, and as a practical matter it tends to be what happens with us. But, in theory, we are moving in the opposite direction. We've talked about the fact that each offense should get a separate spanking, because there is in my mind sometimes a bit of, "Well, since I'm already in for a spanking anyway, who cares if I screw up on this . . ." Spanking separately for each offense would guarantee that even if I am in for one or two spankings, it could always get worse. Now, as a practical matter, while we have talked about the reasons for punishing separate offenses separately, in many cases real life steps in and the spankings after the first never end up happening.
My wife was really good about separating misbehaviors. If pressed for time it could all be in the same spanking in the sense that I never got to pull my pants up. But she would order me off her lap and to stand in front of her and say something like, "Now that we have addressed your drinking, we are going to address your rudeness." The second lecture and spanking would be as if the first had never occurred! The double dose was hard to take!
DeleteKOJ
Anne has experimented with that a bit, too.
DeleteKOJ wrote:... "Now that we have addressed your drinking, we are going to address your rudeness." The second lecture and spanking would be as if the first had never occurred!.."
DeleteWhen she ( my wife) has done that it has only worked well if there is a clear time delineation between the first and subsequent spanking. She has sent me out of the room,left the room herself and ordered corner time. The latter seems to work best in terms of maintaining continuity. Double or even triple spankings are close to the being spanked after orgasm category. They should be used selectively and seldom. She doesn't agree with that but neither does she use them often
Alan
I understand the use of corner time but it would never have worked for us. We both would have busted up laughing.
DeleteKOJ
KOJ, my wife has never given me corner time either. She has, however, kept me waiting in position bent over the bed with my pants down before a spanking. I guess that is somewhat analogous to corner time. But once the spanking is over there is nothing like corner time. I think she finds it more useful to put me to work.
DeleteGH
Nobody's laughing after an hour with your nose in the corner, trust me on that!
DeleteI've just reread your opening Madonna quote Dan - "A lot of people are afraid to say what they want. That’s why they don’t get what they want."
ReplyDeleteAll of us here desire control and discipline from our wives but it is difficult to ask for and to discuss. Interesting that a number (including you and me) have found that it is easy to discuss after spanking. Maybe this is because we are already embarrassed and the subject is on the table, and because, having just been spanked, the discussion is unlikely to result in an immediate spanking. I have to be careful when and how I discuss spanking with my wife as it can result in the offer "do you need a spanking"... cue the rabbit in headlights. I always need a spanking, but I certainly don't want one when it is imminent!
Back to your quote - my last caning was especially hard (marks for a week) because one of the reasons for the punishment was for not using my words which is something that she has punished before. She thought that I was quiet on the Saturday because I needed spanking and didn't talk about it. Actually I was quiet on the Saturday because I expected a spanking (because she had threatened it during the week and they often turn up when she has time in the weekend), and I was horny but damned if I was going to masturbate and then receive the spanking post orgasm!!!
If she read this post I'd be spanked again for not using my words!
Mark, when I chose that quote for this week's post, it was meant to tie into KOJ's topic suggestion around demeanor, suggesting that if wives want better behavior and want more control, they need to demand it. (I know the quote doesn't fit perfectly. The seldom do, though I do try to match up quote and topic in some way.) So, it was really about wives speaking up, not husbands. But, I can see how it can easily apply to husbands as well, and perhaps more so.
Delete"Interesting that a number (including you and me) have found that it is easy to discuss after spanking. Maybe this is because we are already embarrassed and the subject is on the table, and because, having just been spanked, the discussion is unlikely to result in an immediate spanking."
I hadn't thought about that last part, but you are exactly right! I know that one reason I am so bad about journaling and reporting consistently is that doing so could very real result in an imminent spanking. The one time that it is "safe" to broach the topic in broad terms is after a spanking has just happened. For me, there is also the fact that most of these conversations happen in bed, with the light off, which takes away some of the embarrassment that a more face-to-face, in the light of day discussion would entail. The very first time I talked to her about DD, after discovering the DWC website, was when we were in bed and getting ready to go to sleep. I don't think there is any way I could have brought it up in a situation in which she could clearly see me.
I know that the blog has discussed journalling and reporting a lot previously. We don't do it so I didn't comment. I tried it myself but it did seem that if she hadn't noticed then it wasn't something that mattered to her. For me anyway things are more workable when she punishes for things that matter to her.
DeleteIf I'm careful I don't get spanked too often, but it takes effort and I know why I'm making the effort (which nicely feeds my "kink" :-) ). And then I get a spanking anyway for something that she comes up with.
My assumption is that the "underlying model" behind the post and pretty much all the comments is parental corporal punishment, which tended to come with the emotions described. With us, the model has been adult judicial corporal punishment, which doesn't tend to involve the emotions, demeanour etc that have been alluded to here. I suppose this is what has led to my wife's demeanour before, during and after my spankings being neutral.
ReplyDeleteBut then maybe as marital corporal punishment becomes more common, there will be less of a desire to refer to "underlying models" and marital corporal punishment will become a model in its own right? It is possible that this will make it more palatable to other couples who have considered it, but who might have been put off by the fact that it has an "underlying model" involving a child. I recall my former military colleague saying his wife found this part of things made it hard to get used to F/M DD spankings in the beginning.
J
J, you make interesting points about different mental models underlying the practice of marital DD. I think many of us have a parent/child model because spanking was a punishment reserved for children when we were growing up. At a certain point, usually at puberty, we became “too old to spank”, and our parents replaced spanking with other forms of discipline. That’s why being spanked by my wife feels infantilizing to me, and thus extremely shameful and embarrassing. As a masochist, I have for some reason eroticized those negative emotions. One could argue that school discipline, when it used to involve corporal punishment, is another possible model. But I would argue that school discipline is like parental discipline, with the teacher acting “in loco parentis” (in place of the parent). Where I live, the Education Act explicitly stated that teachers could discipline children in any manner “a kind, judicious parent” would. That used to include corporal punishment, most often hand strapping, but spanking was not unheard of for younger children. Corporal punishment, however, has been banned in schools for many years where I live, and even parental spanking is commonly viewed as abuse now.
DeleteI can see that one might have a judicial model in mind. The Canadian penal code used to allow “flogging” for both “juvenile delinquents” and adults in prison. The word “flogging” usually implies a whip applied to the back, but in Canadian prisons it actually meant a very harsh spanking, applied to the bare buttocks with a heavy strap. For legal reasons, it was done in front of witnesses, including a doctor who might be needed to administer after care. Flogging was removed from the penal cold in the mid 20th century, being deemed “a cruel and unusual punishment”. I think the judicial model of corporal punishment is common in BDSM circles as a fetish. However, those of us who are into spousal DD usually think of the parent/child model because our parents loved and cared for us, and ideally our spouses love and care for us. To me the judicial model seems too cold and clinical. Nevertheless, I would say that spousal DD is often closer to judicial CP than to parental spanking in its severity.
In most countries, judicial corporal punishment is a thing of the past, and parental spanking may be headed towards extinction. Maybe when most people have no personal memory of parental spanking, spousal DD will become its own model, as you say. On the other hand, maybe it will become rarer than it is now. It’s hard to know but interesting to speculate about.
GH
Delete"But then maybe as marital corporal punishment becomes more common, there will be less of a desire to refer to "underlying models" and marital corporal punishment will become a model in its own right?"
Possibly. Though, I don't have any basis for thinking that is becoming more common or will in the future. If anything, I think it could become less common as fewer and fewer adults experienced spanking as a kid. But, really, who knows?
While parental discipline was the context for this week's posts, I don't assume that it is *the* underlying model for most DD relationships. I was actually surprised a couple of years ago when someone here pointed out how explicit the DWC website was about it being about "maternal"-style discipline. I either didn't really pick up on that in my early readings on the website or had forgotten it.
Personally, I've come to believe that humans are evolutionarily programmed to have many followers and few leaders, because multiple leaders in small bands of people would have resulted in conflicts and chaos. We also are programmed for cooperative behavior and maintaining group norms, because that's how the group survives. This idea of passing on the genes of social groups seems to be replacing the old "each man for himself" view of evolution. The fact is, humans are pretty weak individually and need small groups to survive, and living in small groups requires respecting norms of behavior. I suspect over time that has resulted in us being programmed to want to get in-line with authority. I don't see it as a "spanking gene" in the way Alan does, but more a "respect for authority" gene that can be expressed in things like craving accountability when we have violated rules or norms.
Dan writes,” I don't see it as a "spanking gene" in the way Alan does, but more a "respect for authority" gene that can be expressed in things like craving accountability when we have violated rules or norms.”
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For the record, I don’t imagine a “spanking gene” lurking behind the development of a spanking fetish. More precisely, it is likely to be a combination of genes expressed by specific alleles, a DNA combination strongly influenced by a person’s environment and experiences. There is nothing determinative about possessing such a combination; they are necessary but insufficient to the development of the fetish.
“Respect for authority,” on the other hand may have genetic roots since it is known that home sapiens and probably earlier examples of the genus did evolve hierarchical behaviors. But respect for authority and “craving accountability” is much more likely to be culturally constructed—since the 10 thousand or so years of “civilization” so far recorded is not long enough for major evolutionary adaptions to become widespread.
Alan
Adding to the above: The decrease in the use of corporal punishment, now generally happening across Western cultures, may produce fewer spankos in the future. The environmental experiences necessary to trigger the DNA might become absent or rare.
DeleteOn the other hand, as Dan’s experience seems to testify ( as well as others), the spanko interest can be triggered well after childhood. So as society becomes less repressed and better educated, many more adults may discover the transcendent experience spanking can be—particularly in long-term committed relationships. It is still mainly anecdotal, but more and more adults seem to be discovering spanking and its delights.
Alan
"But respect for authority and “craving accountability” is much more likely to be culturally constructed—since the 10 thousand or so years of “civilization” so far recorded is not long enough for major evolutionary adaptions to become widespread."
DeleteI'm not sure about that, and I think that may support the opposite point. There was a segment on 60 Minutes this week (and I had read about the underlying studies and theory a couple of years ago) regarding dogs evolution from wolves. The latest theory is that dogs evolved from those wolves that had a "friendliness" gene, which encouraged their interaction with hunter-gatherer tribes, and the gene became self-selecting. Basically, the friendliest, most cooperative wolves became dogs, because there were survival advantages to hanging around human camps. Dogs basically evolved right alongside human beings, and there are modern evolutionary theorists who think that the reason homo sapiens survived while neanderthals did not is that we too have something like a "friendliness" or "cooperativeness" gene because cooperative behavior better ensures that small social groups survive and pass on those genes. As the theory goes, in the hunter-gatherer days, exile for uncooperative, anti-authoritarian behavior was basically a death sentence. But, those societies still need leaders -- just not too many of them. So, evolutionary biology ends up encouraging cooperative, hierarchical behavior, with a large base of people who are pre-disposed to following and a much smaller group that are pre-disposed to leading.
If anything, the fact that "civilization" (as opposed to hunter-gatherer culture, though I don't quite like that bifurcation) has been around for only a few thousand years, yet hierarchies and physical punishment of children (and often adults), seems to be (or has been) more or less universal seems to me to indicate that enforced accountability is *not* a recent cultural development. Also, modern genetics (based on my very lay person reading) studies show that even significant physical adaptations can happen surprisingly quickly. How much more so adaptive behavior in complex animals like humans?
How a drop-off in childhood spanking will affect the prevalence of adult spanking is, I think, anyone's guess. I can make a compelling argument on either side. I also don't know whether the current trend against childhood spanking will be permanent. Religion and social movements have tried to stamp out or alter all sorts of long-established human social behavior, often with limited long-term success.
Maternal authority is the only DD model that would work for me, I believe. I grew up with a strict spanking single mother. I am not afraid to admit that I subconsciously wanted to reestablish maternal authority in some form as an adult. I was fortunate enough to be married to a woman who liked power over her husband.
DeleteAt the same time, I did not want my wife to be my mommy. I didn't want to call her mommy or put me in diapers or nurse me. To me that would have been a fetish. Instead, I needed a wife to help mold me and hold me accountable. To me it wasn't sexy any more than if my mother was exerting her authority. To me that is not a fetish or kink.
It did surprise me when my wife found her power over me to be erotic and changed her rule about no sex after punishment. Seeing her authority be erotic for her made it erotic for me. If she wanted me, then I wanted her! But that was never primary to our dynamic. Pure maternal authority is not sexual.
KOJ
KOJ, I think when there is a debate about whether adult corporal punishment is inherently "kink", people tend to talk past each other, perhaps because they simply have different (often unstated) definitions of "kink." To me, "kinky" is simply another way of saying "unconventional." Your wife getting aroused by exercising authority probably would be "kinky" by that definition. To me, the problem comes in when "kinky" is seen being inherently pejorative.
DeleteI don't doubt you when you say that, for you, DD was not sexual. It sounds like for your wife, it may not have been at first but later became so. For others, what they call "discipline" may just be play-acting a sex scene. I think there is just a huge range of complex motivations in play. I will say, however, that I'm not really doing this blog for those in the "it's a sexy play-acting scene" camp. And, I'm *really* not doing it for those who insist that because it's purely sex for them it is for everyone else.
Dan,
DeleteThanks for your blog. It is the only way I am still connected to DD, and it has helped me deal with my loss and better understand my DD marriage as I look back.
To me, kinky means getting a sex hit from behavior that is not inherently sexual. So more specifically sexual than your definition of unconventional.
I certainly understand that spanking for punishment is a kink for most on here that works behaviorally and sexually. But it wasn't a turn-on for me, and it bothers me that some think a man couldn't possibly accept punishment from his wife unless he got a sex hit.
I liked her being in charge of my behavior. I felt loved and secure and accountable and that she was helping me be the best version of myself. I didn't need to get an erection from that.
KOJ
KOJ, I'm glad the blog helps you, and I want to thank you in turn for your thoughtful participation. It has added a lot to the quality of the blog over the last several months.
DeleteYou use kinky in the way I think is the classic definition of a fetish, i.e. a strong sexual attraction or fixation on an object that isn't inherently sexual.
"It bothers me that some think a man couldn't possibly accept punishment from his wife unless he got a sex hit." I do wish people would be more thoughtful and, frankly, much more humble when it comes to projecting their own experiences and desires onto everyone else. Frankly, it pisses me off whenever someone here starts lecturing about how "we disciplined men" feel or think or do this or that. If this blog has taught me anything, it is that there is a huge range of motivation at play in these relationships. I for one don't have any doubt that you are an intelligent, self-aware person who is perfectly capably of assessing your own mental and emotional states and have described them accurately to us.
What is ironic is that for this blog I took the moniker KOJ, for "Kinky Old Journalist." I guess when I joined up I felt that DD itself was kinky, and that certainly is the general public's perception and the reason we hid our behavior prior to retirement. But I have learned here that it really wasn't a kink for me in the sense of being arousing.
DeleteKOJ
That is ironic, and very self-aware.
DeleteI had an exchange with Aunt Kay's husband this morning about the extent to which I feel like I missed some great opportunities to connect with others and for personal growth, thanks to my the extent to which I hid my connection to our lifestyle prior to retirement. I really do wish I had drawn a better balance on that.
Dan said,” To me, the problem comes in when "kinky" is seen being inherently pejorative.”
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I agree strongly – and that in turn has produced an infinite number of definitions of what kink is. I think the pejorative context of the word derives from early (and inane) medical labeling of almost any sexual activity, not missionary style between two adults, as a pathology. A more precise term might be fetish which simply means to me experiencing sexual arousal from an object or activity other than the genitals. Male sexual arousal from female feet ( or footwear) is a very common example,
Victorian-era medical labeling notwithstanding, fetishes are extremely common and not unhealthy. The word kink itself ought not to be pejorative –and to be judgmental about it, I think people who use the word or think of it pejoratively are expressing their ignorance
In my opinion, kinks are a positive and valuable part of anyone’s sexual repertoire. They can kick start a lagging libido when nothing else does and extend sexual interest and performance as one grows older. I recently read a note from a man in his 80s (he said) looking for a spanking partner. It’s surprising that Viagra or Cialis hasn’t tried to patent spanking.
Alan
Alan, it is pretty astonishing when you look at the various editions of the DSM just how many relatively common sexual activities, and also pretty much everything LGBT world, have been deemed psychological disorders at one time or another. Though, don't get me started on the extent to which the DSM has pathologized vast swaths of human behavior.
DeleteI agree with you regarding people who do use "kink" pejoratively, though I see it as more arrogance than ignorance. There's also a bit of irony in the fact the people who most condemn kink seem to have a very unhealthy level of interest in how other people are having sex. It's kind of a dark, unhealthy variant of voyeurism. Or, I suppose we could also just call it being a busy-body.
There’s also a bit of irony in the fact the people who most condemn kink seem to have a very unhealthy level of interest in how other people are having sex. It's kind of a dark, unhealthy variant of voyeurism.”
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That reminds me: it’s been too long since a prominent Republican critic of homosexuality has been caught in a DC restroom soliciting blowjobs. Do you suppose there is a “hypocrisy gene”? If so, it has lots of adaptive value in American politics at the moment.
Alan
My wife was in real estate. When clients have so many options, a Realtor does not want to be considered weird in any way. It's too easy for clients to be put off even a little bit and go find somebody else. Some semi-famous clients didn't like that she was married to a journalist, as if I was going to reveal where they lived.
DeleteWe had a pact from the beginning to keep our DD private ... until she started revealing it after retirement. I honestly think she got a little drunk on her power and wanted others to know because it made her feel even more powerful. But by then I was too well trained to raise a fuss.
KOJ
Alan, I certainly agree with you about the problem with kink being seen as inherently pejorative. It's one of those delibertly vague words that mean different things to different people. To me, all adult consentual spanking is somewhat erotic, though that obviously isn't true for everybody on this blog. R.e. the week's topic of the woman's demenior before, during and after a spanking, mine is pretty much like many described so far. She is quite matter of fact about it, and simply taking care of business before and during a spanking. I described earlier about noticing this in some videos we took, which I found to be highly erotic. She always is very sweet after, regardless of the reason for the spanking. The majority of my spankings are either maintenance or preventative, but I do occasionally do need a disciplinary spanking. Though I definitely try to avoid them, afterwards, I find them to be the most satisfying and memorable.
DeleteI don’t know whether the words kink/kinky are generally seen to be pejorative nowadays. It is certainly a pejorative for some really straight laced people, who take it to mean “sexually deviant”. But I think when it comes to something like spanking or other forms of mild D/s, most people would say it is kinky in the value neutral sense of the word: “relating to, having, or appealing to unconventional tastes, especially in sex.” The opposite of “kinky” in that sense of the word is “vanilla”, and my sense is that vanilla is now more pejorative than kinky, implying that one has a blandly conventional sex life. Is DD kinky? If you look at the value neutral definition of the word, I would say yes. It is unconventional, and whether or not it directly involves erotic motivations, it has a sexual dimension because it is significant part of your relationship with your sexual partner. If adult/adult spanking could be seen as totally non sexual, it would be possible to think of it in non sexual contexts such as “workplace discipline”. But I think we would all agree that the fantasy of being spanked by one’s boss at work is kinky, and it is almost impossible to imagine that happening in real life because it would sexualize the workplace. Thus, I think it should be possible to agree that spousal DD is somewhat kinky in the non pejorative sense of the word, even if the primary motivation is behavioural rather than sexual. I have said that I feel being disciplined by my wife to be kinky. Some people might, therefore, conclude that it isn’t really discipline, that it is erotic role play disguised as discipline. That is false because my wife spanks me for real disciplinary purposes, and I believe that submitting to that discipline has helped me to improve as a husband and a human being.
DeleteGH
Your post reminds me that my wife used both those words in explaining her concern about our DD getting out: "A Realtor needs to be vanilla, not kinky." Thanks for reminding me!
DeleteKOJ
Getting back to demeanor, I find it interesting that many of us see as maternal authority a DD demeanor that is matter-of-fact, businesslike, stern, possibly even cold. Yet a mother's stereotypical demeanor is just the opposite -- warm, loving. I am not sure how I reconcile that.
ReplyDeleteMy wife's demeanor was "you are not getting away with this crap. You deserve consequences, and I am going to make sure you conclude that your behavior wasn't worth the pain I am going to administer." Yet beneath that harsh exterior I knew she loved me and cared about me. I guess in that sense she was being maternal. But it wasn't clearly evident in the moment, when she acted more like a school principal. (until aftercare)
KOJ
Koj,
DeleteI enjoy the comments above and how you articulate the reasoning behind your relationship. Out of all the commenters on this site, I wish
and hope that my DD relationship ends up just as yours. Both you and your wife are clearly intelligent and your writing is eloquently explained.
I wish I had your vocabulary. I am strongly attracted to the maternal side of DD. Whether or not I would describe that as a “kink” or not has been described above thoroughly. My wife has punished me with that no nonsense approach. I enjoy when she punishes and dismisses me. I would prefer no sexual contact at all after punishment. My question to everyone, “is it a kink because a majority have sex afterwards.” Would it be not be, if it was just a spanking and scolding.I agree a kink doesn’t have to be sexual. My last
question is, would anyone consider spanking without sex afterwards or does that not work for the majority.
T
As far as reconciliation, my Mother was cold, angry, stern,
Deletestrict, and sometimes angry when delivery a spanking.
Afterwards, she became warm and affectionate. I see my wife doing the same things. She will punish and scold. Then she will say, “I’ve hoped you learned a
lesson” and kiss me. Although various things have occurred afterward that I’ve explained above. I’d prefer my wife to spank when angry and upset.
T
"My last question is, would anyone consider spanking without sex afterwards or does that not work for the majority."
DeleteWhile sex happens after a spanking frequently for us, it's not 100%. And, the batting average dropped after we became empty nesters and retired, because spankings started happening more often in the day, and those were rarely followed by sex.
“My question to everyone, “is it a kink because a majority have sex afterwards.” Would it be not be, if it was just a spanking and scolding.I agree a kink doesn’t have to be sexual. My last question is, would anyone consider spanking without sex afterwards or does that not work for the majority.”
DeleteT, I think the relationship between DD, kink, and sex can be psychologically complicated. Spanking is definitely a kink for me because it is probably my earliest masturbation fantasy. I was turned on by spanking fantasies before I even knew what sex was, and it was kink that motivated me to ask my wife for DD. However, spanking and sex are strictly separated in our house. It’s not just that my wife wants to keep the discipline of spanking and the reward of sex separate. Paradoxically, real life spanking doesn’t turn me on the way fantasies do. I don’t get an erection before, during, or immediately after a spanking. However, I feel deeply devoted to my wife after a spanking, which I may show by giving her a foot massage at the end of the day. Usually, that feeling of devotion will build in intensity and take an erotic turn the day after a spanking. Then I will write a journal entry for my wife to read, and that will essentially take the form of an explicitly erotic love letter to my wife. I get turned on by writing it, and she gets turned on reading it. I think that process of writing and reading graphically erotic messages may be a kink in itself. And that’s when sex happens for us. Thus, it is separate from DD, but erotic energy definitely comes from the DD. Another thing that happened after we began FLR is that the kind of sex we had became much more woman centred. For example, it might consist of an orgasm from oral sex for her and temporary orgasm denial for me. I imagine every DD relationship is psychologically complicated in unique ways.
GH
Here’s a further kink in my kink. My spanking fantasies have always been most arousing when the spanking is purely disciplinary. I don’t fantasize about “erotic” spankings, even though the fantasies feel erotic. Thus, when my wife spanks me in a way that seems as sexually disinterested as an adult disciplining a naughty child, and shame prevents me from getting aroused, that totally non erotic discipline actually resembles the fantasies that turn me on as fantasies. That’s one reason the “maternal” aspect of DD has such power over me: when the wife who is normally your sex partner spanks like your mother, the spanking is separated from sex.
DeleteGH
GH wrote: “That’s one reason the “maternal” aspect of DD has such power over me: when the wife, who is normally your sex partner, spanks like your mother, the spanking is separated from sex.”
DeleteThe spanking is separated from sex for me from about the 4th or 5th crack of brush or strap, and that was even true when I presented myself for spanking with a stubborn erection. As we have discussed, often, it is not the physical experience of being spanked that is erotic but everything else that goes with the exercise of submission to female authority.
But to your larger point, there is a maternal vibe because your wife or girlfriend often uses the same approach, style, and techniques you witnessed or experienced growing up -or possibly simply that you absorbed from the popular culture.
In some earlier comments, I called that a “ maternal template” that we respond to later in life. Your wife is not your mother, and you are not a child, and chances are your mother (or friend’s mother) never spanked as hard as your wife does.
So folks that worry about things like oedipal feelings or acting out incest fantasies and that sort of crap should remember where they are: adults in an adult relationship. Sure, you can be made to feel very childlike when you are held down and spanked or endure an embarrassing lecture or another embarrassment. But those feelings are usually healthy to experience and express and may help you become even more of the mature adult you already are. It s not your actual mother spanking you -and if she were, you probably would find it easier to sit down in that favorite chair.
Alan
Alan,
DeleteThis is well-stated. I like the idea of a "maternal template" that wives can tap into. Like Jung's archetypes. That makes a lot of sense. I think that is how my wife felt a lot of the time, like an archetypical mother but not my mother.
Maybe there's a naughty son archetype too.
KOJ
After setting my ass on fire, my wife liked to go out to eat at a favorite restaurant with hard benches and warch me squirm. She thought that was hysterical. "What's the matter, you got ants in your pants? You'd be a lot more comfortable if you knew how to behave." She was quite the card after a hard spanking.
DeleteKOJ
T,
DeleteWe had spanking with no sex afterwards, with a rule of no sex the same day that lasted for about a decade, and then a rule of no sex for at least 2-3 hours. This rule made a lot of sense to me, to not combine pleasure and pain and/or reward me for bad behavior. However, I also can understand the intimacy of DD and aftercare leading to sex. To me this should be up to the Disciplinary Wife, who is in charge of the DD relationship.
KOJ
KOJ, your idea of the archetypal mother who is not your mother reminds me of spanking fantasies I had involving women teachers when I was in school. A teacher is somewhat like a surrogate mother, especially in elementary school. So the maternal template is like a teacher template. My wife has never had an explicit rule that there would be no sex after a spanking, but since it never happened, I think of it as an unwritten rule. But now that I think about it, if there is an unwritten rule, it may unconsciously be my doing as much as hers.
DeleteGH
KOJ wrote: “…I like the idea of a "maternal template" that wives can tap into. Like Jung's archetypes. That makes a lot of sense. I think that is how my wife felt a lot of the time, like an archetypical mother..”
DeleteKOJ, this allusion to Jungian archetypes to describe maternal styles of adult spanking is point on -and expresses fully my concept of “maternal template”. Before you have a chance to copy-write it, I intend to steal it—the maternal archetype is born.
Alan
KOJ said: “But it wasn't a turn-on for me, and it bothers me that some think a man couldn't possibly accept punishment from his wife unless he got a sex hit.”
ReplyDelete--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I do get that, and I think most males in a serious DD relationship of any tenure would get it too. I doubt many men in such a relationship have not accepted punishment from a wife or girlfriend without a “sex hit” at least once or twice—and maybe quite a few times.
I am not suggesting that most men in an F/M DD relationship are not erotically motivated most of the time. But I can tell you that my wife has spanked me many times over the years when I got absolutely no eroticism from it -and no real satisfaction except knowing I had pleased her and probably strengthened our relationship and invested in behavioral change by taking the spanking. It was, after all, a female commenter who expressed the strongest counterview. This is one where males may be the most sensitive to complex feelings.
Alan
Alan,
DeleteVery symbolically put.
T
It varies a bit here. If Dev announces I’m going to be spanked for whatever reason naturally I’m worried. All is fine up to the time penance will be given. She changes her demeanor to authoritative and no nonsense. I call it discipline mode. Last week was different. I said the “ W “ word. I had no idea this one her words she hated ( she’s a grammar freak . ) She immediately became angry and a very hard session was given. 5 days later I said it again. I thought she was napping. I was wrong. She called me upstairs and in a flash I was over her knee in the kitchen. This time seemed harder and longer ! In either case , about a half hour after it’s over things are “ OFF “ Over. Forgotten and Forgiven and she’s in a good mood again. On another note. I no longer day “ ain’t “. Lol. JR
ReplyDeleteI still maintain "ain't" is a perfectly good, highly functional word. ;-)
DeleteMy wife had no problem with "ain't." As in, "You ain't getting away with that. Go get the brush!"
DeleteKOJ
I know the F word, the S word, the C word, the B word, and the N word, all of which I could be spanked for (though I never said the N word). I have no idea what the W word is.
DeleteKOJ
"W" <=> "Whore"
DeleteI never think of spanking as kinky or a kink. It just 'is' something that is and always has been a natural turn on for me (and for many, many others - judging by the frequent titilating references in the media) Like a previous comment said, I don't get aroused just before or immediately after (and definitely not during) a spanking but I enjoy being in a relationship where my thoughtless, selfish behavior is dealt with through physical punishment. It creates an unusually intimate connection (hence often leading to sex) and clears the air very satisfactorily. In isolation I happily enjoy spanking fantasies, reading fiction and sometimes watching videos and I find most of them arousing to a greater or lesser degree. I think that there is a lot of nonsense talked about how spanking as somehow 'kinky' or abnormal - the buttocks are generally a private area and an erogenous zone. Any contact could / would be a turn on for most people. Spanking turns the focus exclusively to that area for both parties, creating physical and emotional sensations which are difficult to explain except in an intimate relationship context. Which is why I have always believed that the spanking of children is problematic. But between consenting adults? I think those of us who have the interest are lucky to have this additional aspect to our relationships. TB
ReplyDelete"It creates an unusually intimate connection (hence often leading to sex) and clears the air very satisfactorily." Agreed on both counts.
DeleteSorry Tea Boy, the reason I think of spanking as a kink or a fetish for me is that I somehow came to have a sexual response to something that is not inherently sexual or even desirable: being punished in a way that was painful and embarrassing. Weirdly, I find images of spanking sexier than images of actual sex. That’s kinky, right?
DeleteI must confess, I used to be one of those guys Dan criticizes who thought that any guys who desire DD must be kinky the same way I am. That’s because I find it hard to imagine what it would be like not to feel what I feel. But through reading and talking to people who are different from me, I have come to accept the limitations of my own experience.
GH
Dan,
ReplyDeleteI meant to mention before that the drawing of the woman in the lavendar dress reminds me a lot of my wife, except she didn't show the cleavage. But the arms folded with the brush in hand and the you're-going-to-get-it expression ... That was her!
KOJ
She also kept her hair short. She said women with long hair got no respect in business.
DeleteKOJ
None of the pics/drawings in this post are particularly close to Anne in terms of physical appearance, but the closest is probably the woman in jeans standing in her garden.
DeleteDan,
ReplyDeleteMy favorite pic from above was of the man, women and bookcase. His look it of concern is wrought on his face.
I love her in the dress as she is grabbing the paddle. This reminded me of my youth.
T
Yeah, there is something about that one that really gets me, too.
DeleteThere really is something special in that drawing that evokes the essence of it all. For me, there is a bonus because it is very reminiscent of several spankings my former GF gave to me in a library-like setting, and it's more or less a depiction of the way I imagine it happening.
DeleteI don't know much about the artist, but from viewing some of her other work,I sense she modeled real people into her scenes. The scenes themselves are probably the product of her imagination
Alan
Alan, I don't know enough about electronic art tools to be sure of this opinion, but for a lot of her recent stuff I'm pretty sure she's starting with actual pictures and then using some app to make them look like drawings. That's true of a lot of her older stuff, too.
DeleteStill, I do like her stuff, but I don't post much of it here, for a couple of reasons. First, many of her subjects are way too young - I really wish more of her works involved an adult recipient. Second, she puts her new stuff behind a paywall, and I want to respect her right to try to sell her work, so on the rare occasions that I post her stuff it's always something that's been out there for a long time and is widely distributed.
" First, many of her subjects are way too young - I really wish more of her works involved an adult recipient."
ReplyDeleteYes, I have had the same reaction to her. It's too bad because she seems otherwise to be talented, but I don't think there should even be subtle innuendo in pictorial depictions that a subject may be underage. Spanking is for adults.
Alan
I'm not as on board with the move away from corporal punishment for the underaged as some, though I'm not an advocate for it either. As we've discussed, I think most of the studies supposedly demonstrating it leads to bad adult outcomes are hopelessly flawed, and I do believe the people who are most against it need to confront how it is that the generations that have been raised with the least amount of spanking are the ones with the highest rates of anxiety and depression.
DeleteAll that said, the fact that I don't have a problem with corporal punishment of kids in real life doesn't mean I think it is OK to depict it in spanking art. I don't buy that in real life parental spankings are sexual for most people, but I do think that a lot of spanking art is, in fact, meant to sexually titillate.
I am swayed by Jillian Keenan’s argument against spanking children. She says that although it may be true that there is nothing sexual about childhood spanking for most people, it is a sexually humiliating experience for some children, and for that reason it should be unacceptable. Her argument is based on the way she felt as a child, and it resonates with me because I felt that way too. So I agree with her and Alan that spanking is for adults.
DeleteGH
I too shy away from posting pics or even discussing underage stuff. More for perceived legal reasons.
DeleteBut I think many of us, myself included, view spanking as a sort of age regression thing (among other things), so we get turned on imagining receiving a spanking in childhood. I was spanked a little as a kid, and hated it. But as a grownup looking back on it, the memory of it now excites me. And while I would have called the cops as a teen, I now fantasize that I was taken in hand by Daddy back then.
Those images involving kids being spanked therefore resonate sexually with me. I imagine myself in their shoes. So it's a pity we can't really share that sort of art or write that sort of story. We don't want to see real kids sexualized, but stories and drawings where we can imagine ourselves as the age-regressed miscreant can be super sexy, at least for me (I love the "age regression" genre, which maybe is a loophole in the law?).
I also agree with Dan that it's a quite separate question whether kids are better or worse off with spanking as corporal punishment no longer on the table. A spanking is for sure the safest form of corporal punishment. The ass seems custom made for absorbing a good lesson in manners!
GH, I like a lot of Jillian Keenan's work, but I think she often loses sight of the fact that saying something with great conviction doesn't make it true. Apparently, you've seen her take a more nuanced view than I have. I know in one of her YouTube videos she asserts that childhood spankings *always* involve sexual feelings by one or both parties. I think that's utter nonsense, and just because she says it with great conviction doesn't make it true or even imply that her view has any evidence backing it up. Also, she states in her book that she was a "spanko" from a very, very young age and that she eroticized spankings before she even knew what sex was. Someone with that strong and pervasive a spanking fetish is about the last person whose opinion I would take on what all or most adults or children experience.
DeleteJulie, pretty much all of that resonates with me, though I don't think I have your thing for age regression.
DeleteLike you I wasn't spanked often as a kid. But, I honestly think that may have been a bad thing, because I have no doubt that growing up without rules--or at least without any that were consistently enforced--caused me a lot of problems as an adult. Balancing the risks, there isn't a lot of doubt in my mind that I would have been less anxious in my 20s had I been spanked more often as a kid and had there been real rules. It's one reason that I'm not ready to say that there's not a correlation between the historical changes in parenting styles that include a huge drop-off in the use of corporal punishment and the rise in teen-age anxiety and depression. Yeah, social media is a big part of it, but that too is in part caused by more permissive parenting.
Like you, when I see those drawings, it definitely causes me to think about being in the recipient's position.
On the legal front, I don't know how it would work in Canada, but in the U.S. you are on pretty firm legal ground if it's a drawing and not a picture. The Supreme Court has shot down laws that purported to criminalize sexualized images unless it was a picture of a real person. My concern is more about Blogger terminating my blog and probably my entire account. That's basically what happened to KD Pierre's blog.
“Also, she states in her book that she was a "spanko" from a very, very young age and that she eroticized spankings before she even knew what sex was. Someone with that strong and pervasive a spanking fetish is about the last person whose opinion I would take on what all or most adults or children experience.”
DeleteDan, Jillian’s argument resonates with me because I am like her. I also eroticized spanking before I knew what sex was. I think you are right that her statements are sometimes overly categorical. However, in her strongest articulation of the argument, she says that “even if” one grants that spanking is experienced in a totally non sexual way by most children, the fact that some children do experience it as sexual should take childhood spanking off the table. The same argument applies to adult disciplinarians of children: EVEN IF it is non sexual for most adults, if you allow spanking in places like schools, it is certain that some subset of disciplinarians will be sexually motivated. I find it difficult to refute her logic on that point.
GH
Julie, I am like you concerning age regression. I experience a sort of age regression when I am spanked, and although I don’t think my wife intends to be kinky, when she scolds and spanks me, she seems to instinctively treat me as a boy rather than a man. That’s how I relate to spanking art and stories. But in Canada works of the imagination aren’t legally safe the way they are in the USA. — GH
DeleteGH, my point about her fetish is that someone who has that mindset is in very shaky ground when they project their feelings or attitudes onto people who don't share the fetish. I don't doubt she has a fallback position in case her assumptions about the inherent sexuality of spankings are wrong, but those assumptions *are* where her primary argument begins.
DeleteFurther, I personally don't think her point that there is some subset of people who might be sexually motivated is very compelling at all. If some subset of prison guards get off on their authority over inmates, do we do away with jails? If some subset of cops get off on hurting arrestees do we stop arresting people? Or, back to children, some people get off on having authority over others. So, is saying "no" to your kids now a problem because some parents undoubtedly get off on controlling their kids by saying "no" to them? Her argument proves too much and too little at the same time.
You could make the same argument about adult fetishes and professionals who cater to them. If you have 100 professional disciplinarians and 99 of them are motivated to serve their clients needs professionally, but one of them is a true sadist who gets off on hurting his clients, do you ban professional disciplinarians? Or, how about porn? Some argue that it's inherently degrading to women. Many women with Only Fans accounts would strongly disagree, and many men who watch it would deny that they like degrading women. So, do we ban porn because some subset of men *do* like to see watch porn because they *do* think it's degrading to the women in it? There are definitely some who make exactly that argument, and I'm very glad that they don't get to make the rules.
Those are good counterpoints, Dan. I guess if you believe that corporal punishment is as necessary as to the functioning of society as prison guards and jails and police officers, then her logic is invalid. The question with any necessary evil, I suppose, is whether it is actually necessary. — GH
DeleteIt’s quite interesting, I asked my siblings about our childhood and growing up, they have different opinions on our punishment than I do. One of my siblings resented being spanked. The other was so so on the topic.
DeleteI can clearly tell that they would not be open to DD. They seemed to have gone the opposite of me. Am I hardwired differently than they are? Why do I feel the need for discipline and accountability for my actions? Why is it that I need to be thrashed severely when I’ve done something that upsets my wife. I am with GH, I find it hard to believe someone was a spanko at a very young age. That statement floored me.
None of us enjoyed getting spanked in youth. Do I think my adult spanking is age regression? Maybe to some extent. My wife is holding me accountable for
my actions by spanking and scolding me. I’m tending to think a bit like Dan now. Kids now a days have zero respect for authority. They are often lackadaisical and are prone to all of these psychological conditions. Would it be different with strong corporal punishment; growing up not wanting to disappoint your parents. I look at our nieces and see the entitlement and how they address their parents at times. I’m blown away. The genuine lack of respect today is mind boggling. This is why children need to be handled differently. What works for
some doesn’t work for others. I also believe social media has ruined this country. The youth today have zero interpersonal communication skills. Dan, I used to be against it and now I’m like you, I don’t advocate it, but I also wouldn’t want someone to end up with the way my mind works now.
Sorry I got on a soapbox moment.
T
"I find it hard to believe someone was a spanko at a very young age. That statement floored me."
DeleteWhile I don't agree with some of her opinions, I don't want to sound too harsh about Jillian Keenan. Her book, Sex With Shakespeare, is well worth the read. It helped me understand the nature of a fetish in a way I really didn't before. I found her descriptions of being obsessed with spanking from a very young age to be fascinating, and even more so the way she describes how for her spanking *is* sex, to the point that if she had to choose between intercourse and spanking, spanking would win every time. The psychological history and makeup of her spanking fetish is very different from the development of my DD interest, but her book gave me a much better understanding of the fetish than I had before.
"They seemed to have gone the opposite of me. Am I hardwired differently than they are? Why do I feel the need for discipline and accountability for my actions? Why is it that I need to be thrashed severely when I’ve done something that upsets my wife?"
I wish I knew, T. I really do. After 20 years in a DD relationship and a decade with this blog, I'm not sure I'm really any closer to understanding why people raised in nearly identical environments develop so differently. Your comment did make me realize that I've never had the conversation you had with your siblings about spanking, and I really have no idea whether any of my siblings are into it. I've always been very resistant to sharing anything about our DD with my close relatives, but your comment made me realize that I've just been assuming they aren't into it themselves when I really have no idea.
GH, I don't really see the validity of her opinion as hinging on the the level of the necessity to society. I just don't see her argument as logical or compelling. Let's use a more trivial though politically loaded example that is in the news -- drag queen library shows. If 1 out of a hundred kids have a prurient reaction to seeing men dressed as women, or if 1 performer gets a sexual thrill out of performing in drag with kids present, do we ban drag shows?
DeleteInteresting analogy, Dan. I don’t know. I need to think about it some more. Because I experienced spanking the way Jillian did as a child, I don’t personally believe in spanking children, and I would never do it myself. But whether that is grounds for an outright ban, I’m not sure.
DeleteGH
As I said, I'm not an activist on either side of the issue. But, I'm not big on "virtue signaling," and I think it's rampant on this issue. So far, I've never met someone on the anti-spanking side who will engage in a serious debate on the issue of whether the implicit or explicit assertion that kids will be mentally and emotionally healthier without spanking, in aggregate, in the real world, has proven to be true. We have 20+ years of declining rates of familial and school spankings, and escalating rates of teenage depression, anxiety, suicide, etc. On the other hand, there probably has been a correlation between decreased use of corporal punishment and decreased rates of violent crime. I am not saying that we can draw causal connections in either of those cases, but it's a complicated issue that deserves a more honest, fulsome debate than it tends to get.
Delete“The question with any necessary evil, I suppose, is whether it is actually necessary. — GH”
DeleteSetting the underlying issue aside, your comment - “The question with any necessary evil … is whether it is actually necessary” is a great line. I am awarding you a Wordsmith, First Class badge for that one.
Alan
"T" wrote: "I find it hard to believe someone was a spanko at a very young age."
DeleteWhen I was five and a half years old my father and I had a dispute at our dinner table; a dispute over whether I would eat a particular type of vegetable.
My father considered my "defiance" to be a punishable offense, so he dragged me by my arm into a separate room and began to spank me over his lap.
I orgasmed within roughly five seconds. I don't clearly remember what happened immediately thereafter, except the spanking stopped, and I was never again EVER spanked by a family member while I was a child.
So, YES, apparently I was such "a spanko at a very young age." There are such people, and apparently I am one.
(BTW: After that event, none of my younger siblings (4, 2, 2m) were ever spanked within our family.)
-- BD
I don't recall feeling any spanko desires directly related to the maternal discipline I received growing up. But I do remember when my sister told one of her friends how I was still spanked. I was in fifth grade at the time and my sister and her friend were three years older. I was mortified that my secret crush knew the details of my childish punishment. Family members and a few of my mom's friends were aware, but this felt much different.
ReplyDeleteKevin
Kevin, I'm sure that would have been super embarrassing. How did you learn of it? Did your sister tell you she had told her friend?
DeleteI had 3 sisters who were all close to me in age. They all had girlfriends who hung around at our house. I had crushes on some of those girlfriends at various times. Spankings were super embarrassing for me because all of my sisters’ girlfriends would know when I got spanked, so I understand how you felt, Kevin.
DeleteGH
Yes. I had done something to annoy (and embarrass) my sister, so that was her way of getting back at me.
ReplyDeleteKevin
There are times I am very glad I didn't grow up with older siblings.
Delete