Reasonable orders are easy enough to obey; it is capricious, bureaucratic or plain idiotic demands that form the habit of discipline. - Barbara W. Tuchman
Hello all. Welcome back to the Disciplinary Couples Club. Our weekly gathering of men and women who are in, or would like to be in, Domestic Discipline relationships. I hope you all had a great weekend.
Mine was interesting. First business trip since the Covid lockdown. It was interesting comparing how two different areas of the country are complying with Covid shutdowns and mask requirements. I thought our area was pretty good when it came to masks, but the city I travelled to was much better. It didn’t surprise me that we are seeing a substantial uptick where we live but the city I traveled to isn’t. It’s also interesting how masks have become part of some people’s everyday routine. I’ve actually gotten pretty good at eating and drinking with one.
This is one of those weeks that I’m not getting much in the way of inspiration for a new topic. I was looking through some old ones and came across the topic of “undeserved punishment,” and also saw the above quote. For some reason, a topic related to giving in to orders you chafe against, or taking a spanking you personally don’t think you deserve, resonated with me this week. I think maybe it is because there was a dispute going on at work, and I was firmly in one of two competing camps. I was hopeful that the powers-that-be would get to the right decision, but I did spend a fair amount of time thinking about what I’d do if they didn’t. So, maybe that context was in my mind when I saw the above quote and thought about the times we’ve talked about “undeserved” punishment. In any event, it’s been about two years since we talked about those topics, so let’s give it a go again.
Have you ever been given a
disciplinary spanking for something you felt you didn't deserve? Perhaps you were seemingly "caught"
doing something you really didn't do? Or, perhaps something bad did happen but
someone else was the real offender? Or, maybe you did something that wasn't
contrary to any clearly set rule, but it was something that annoyed or
aggravated your HoH, so they disciplined you for it unexpectedly? In those circumstances, how did you
react? How did it make you feel? Humbled?
Resentful? Respectful? If you are on the giving end of the spanking, have you ever imposed a punishment that maybe in retrospect wasn't really earned or was more severe than maybe he deserved?
And, for those of you in an FLR, what about giving and taking orders? Do you follow only those orders you think are “reasonable”? Or, is it sometimes a turn-on to be subject to an order precisely because it is one you do not agree with? Remember when we were kids objecting to an order that seemingly came out of nowhere and mom’s response was “Because I said so!” For those of us for whom the maternal vibe is a strong component of our attraction to DD, is that seemingly arbitrary or capricious imposition of ad hoc authority part of the attraction?
I can't think of a circumstance where I have been punished for something I really didn't do or something that I didn't know was a problem for her. The closest I can think of is a situation where I repeatedly left a chore undone, or done half-assed, and she finally had enough, ordered a spanking, and delivered a very, very hard one that evening. It was not that it was "undeserved" per se, but this chore was not so much something assigned to me under some express rule, but something I have just always done. Moreover, giving a very hard spanking for not doing a chore was not a direction either of us had taken things in up until that point. So, perhaps the right word is "unexpected" as opposed to "undeserved." There was also one time when I expected a fairly light "maintenance" session, but what I got was a full-blown punishment spanking.In both cases, there was perhaps some resentment as I pulled my pants up over my very sore bottom that night, but there was also an offsetting respect. Admiration is another good word to describe it. I felt proud of her for addressing a situation that was pissing her off and doing it strongly and decisively. My reaction was one indication I had that we might have approached a fork in the road, going from something purely DD to something more FLR-oriented, with her setting the tone and direction and taking action where she thought appropriate regardless of whether we had an agreed-upon rule that had been broken.
It speaks very well of my
wife that in well over a decade in this lifestyle, I really can't think of an
instance in which she was really "wrong" to spank me. If anything, perhaps it indicates she is
letting me get away with too much too often! And, I think that is a danger in trying
to set all the rules up front. It kind
of happened to us recently. We had a fairly
structured discussion a few weeks ago about where to take things now that we
are more or less empty nesters. It was
good, and the general direction was around her taking more control and
exercising authority in more areas. But, I did tell her that I thought for too
many years, alcohol-related offenses had been the “end all and be all” of our
DD relationship. I stressed that I wasn’t
trying to question her authority to spank me for acts of excessive drinking,
but “excessive” needed to be in reference to exceeding reasonable social limits
or doing something that put myself or others in danger. It shouldn’t just being exceeding some low
but arbitrary limit in situations where others—often friens of hers at events
she took me to—were drinking as much or more.
She agreed to that, which seemed great at the time. But, a couple of
weeks later I did have a night where I did exceed what most would consider a
reasonable limit, but she didn’t take action.
I feel like by trying to
define a rule that we both thought was reasonable, I still may have undermined
her or made her second-guess herself. The bottomline for me is these
relationships require common sense, and the "right" approach is
seldom binary. Yet, I still wonder whether my effort to come to an agreement on
a commonsense boundary around what was “spankable” may have made sense on one
level yet been counterproductive on another?
It also would be more than a little disingenuous for me to get too upset about being punished for something I didn't deserve given that, as this week illustrates, on balance I have engaged in way more bad behavior that has gone unpunished that I should not have gotten away with. So, being punished where not strictly deserved could be looked at as just a balancing of the accounts.
I hope you all have a great weekend.
I have been given a spanking several times for something and I didn't think I deserved it but, my wife knows best and I take the spanking. It is humbling but I get over it fast.
ReplyDeleteI always try to do everything she tells me to do without argument because it's easier to do a little extra work than to get a spanking for arguing because getting a spanking takes up at almost an hour of my time because of the corner time before and after the spanking plus she will then give me extra chores to do along with the things she asked me to do in the first place so it's easier to do as told.
Making it easier to just do as told seems like a fine approach to discipline.
DeleteHi Dan,
ReplyDeleteIn most cases I have felt - at least when a punishment was announced - that I didn’t deserve it. This is because she has total latitude in determining when to punish (i.e. we do not have a list of agreed upon punishable behaviors) and even more than that, I am seldom punished for behavior, but rather for attitude. In fact, every time my wife has punished me for attitude, I have felt in the beginning that I am right and am being wrongly punished, but in EVERY case, by the end of the punishment my thinking has changed and I have realized just how bad my attitude was. It turns out that a bad attitude is hard to self-diagnose… If I were punished more often for misbehavior (breaking agreed upon rules) then the only real question would be whether the circumstance warranted breaking the rule so that would be at least somewhat more clear.
The biggest times that I have not felt I deserved punishment involved my stepson. I would notice every little thing he did and then ride him way too hard. My wife has punished me for this multiple times, and in each case I felt resentful that she seemed to take his side and not even take into account the circumstances, because in every case, I was right about the issue! However, as a result of these punishments, my thinking has changed, and I have realized that I was crushing his spirit and damaging his already battered self-confidence and sense of worth. In the end it really didn’t matter what his thoughtless or annoying behavior was or whether I was “right,” but what really mattered is I just didn’t want to look in his eyes and see that I had hurt his self-esteem. I wanted to build him up and not tear him down, and as a result of DD changing my thinking, we now have a great and close relationship.
I have never been “caught” doing something that I didn’t really do, with the possible exception of times that I checked out attractive young women excessively or stared (or even flirted in front of my wife). There have been several times that my wife called me out for that when I really had no idea that I was doing it. But that is not so much that I was in the right as that I really have a bad habit with that so I don’t even notice when I am doing it. If she consistently punished for that, I would be sitting on a red bottom every time we left the house.
Recently, my wife has told me that I am going to be punished for overriding her and pushing ahead with some plans even though she told me it was a bad idea several times. Initially when she told me I was going to be punished for this, I felt it was unfair because based on the information I had when making the decision, I had no way of knowing it was going to turn out badly. However, as I have thought more about it, I should have listened to her and respected her opinion, since she objected several times, but instead I chose the risky choice because I always take risks and never choose the safe path because of my overinflated ego. While everything worked out semi-ok in this case, it could have turned out to be a serious disaster and I actually put us in great jeopardy by insisting on going ahead with my plans.
So basically, in about every case I think I don’t deserve punishment, but then when all is said and done, I always come around and see that in fact I do. And therein is the great dilemma: I want my wife to be much, much more strict and to punish in EVERY case that she feels it is warranted, without even giving it a second thought. But at the same time, I also somehow NEED to push back and object and defend my actions or attitudes so that the whole thing is more imposed. As it is, we live in a creative tension where she only punishes me a very small fraction of the time I deserve it, yet still in every case I somehow feel like it is undeserved, at least until it happens.
-ZM
"In most cases I have felt - at least when a punishment was announced - that I didn’t deserve it." Finally, an area in which you and I are not in alignment!
Delete"It turns out that a bad attitude is hard to self-diagnose…" I think that may be your inner techie talking, my friend. For me, I'm usually pretty aware of my own moods, but I think there is a negative correlation between technical/math skills and reading one's own mood/affect. :-)
As I've related before, I've had a few of those times when I was overly caustic or teased one of our kids in a way that I didn't think at the time was over the line, but in retrospect it was. It's great that you genuinely came to see the problem and turned it around. Many fathers never do.
Also, blaming a man for looking at a pretty woman is like blaming a compass for pointing north.
DeleteHi Dan,
DeleteIt is startling at times just how aligned we normally are, so I guess it is good when there are areas that we are different.
As for the inner techie talking, are you implying that engineers may at times lack self-awareness? And all this time I thought we were primarily known for our relational and social skills! But in fact, I think you are right that it is largely just a part of how I am wired that I cannot see myself clearly and can't recognize my own bad moods and how it affects those around me. But on the other hand, as you pointed out, I am pretty good at math, so that is not all bad!
I am very happy about the huge difference that DD helped make in my relationship with my stepson. Quite frankly, even if DD never accomplished anything else, it would be easily worth it just for that.
Regarding the "looking at a pretty woman" thing, of course all guys like that, but I do hope to learn to exhibit a little more self control, primarily because I would never want to hurt my wife's feelings but also because I would not want to make anyone else feel uncomfortable. Plus, I really have no excuse since my wife is very pretty, fun, easy-going, smart, and just generally hot!
-ZM
Yes, I was trying to suggest teasingly that engineers sometimes are a little challenged in the self-awareness category. I am in the somewhat unique position of being a non-technical person in a *very* technical work group. I love every person in my group, but each of them is special in their own special way!
DeleteAnd now on the FLR questions…
ReplyDelete“Do you follow only those orders you think are ‘reasonable’? Or, is it sometimes a turn-on to be subject to an order precisely because it is one you do not agree with? Remember when we were kids objecting to an order that seemingly came out of nowhere and mom’s response was ‘Because I said so!’ For those of us for whom the maternal vibe is a strong component of our attraction to DD, is that seemingly arbitrary or capricious imposition of ad hoc authority part of the attraction? ”
I must start by saying that we are not in an FLR. The closest we come to FLR is during times that we “play” and also during any times that we venture into services, which is not an everyday thing for us. Consequently, I am turned on by the arbitrary nature of her demands. In fact, a big part of play is to demand the impossible and then “punish” him for not meeting expectations.
I expect my feelings would be significantly different if we were in an actual FLR where this was playing out every day. In those cases, I think I would bristle against unreasonable or arbitrary demands. But for us, where it only happens infrequently and then only for a short amount of time, the more strict and unreasonable she is and the more control she exerts, the more of a turn-on it is.
Sorry for venturing into femdom play a bit there. Hopefully some of the regulars who are actually more in an FLR can help provide some balance!
-ZM
That may be a very important caveat in lots of contexts -- unreasonable or capricious orders might feel very different depending on frequency. In the work context, I certainly am more forgiving when a manager does something like that only rarely, especially if they learn from it. In fact, recently one of our managers issued an edict to a very large group, after being warned by a couple of us that it was likely to be very poorly received. It was, on a scale that I didn't envision even though I was one of those who warned against it. But, to his credit, he learned a lesson and owned the mistake right away, which to me made all the difference in the world.
DeleteI agree with your comment that being spanked for something you don't agree is deserved is balanced by the number of times she lets me 'off the hook' when a spanking is well deserved.
ReplyDeleteFor me , the most common of the former is when she decides to settle a disagreement between the two of us by ordering a spanking on the basis that I was not listening or respecting her opinion , which is one of the punishable 'rules' we have agreed on and is admittedly a fault of mine.
My position is that I did listen to here but disagreed with her advice or point of view but it just seems easier to accept my punishment rather than continue to argue the point.
I suspect it is a convenient way for her to end the argument and chalk up a win for her.
If I dare raise the subject later she simply asks ,"Do you need another spanking so soon?"
I should know better as one of our rules is "My wife is always right"!
Like you , I am often disappointed when she lets me off the hook too easily or often.
Hi Glen. Yeah, that seems like a pretty dangerous line to draw in practice. "I was listening to you -- I just ignored you because I thought you were wrong!" I can see that one earning a spanking or two. :-)
DeleteFor me it's simple: I find unfairness in play very sexy and appealing and in terms of play, I actually seek out arbitrary whim from Rosa and others often. In play, someone wants to roast me good and use some contrived no-win plot to do so? Hell, I'll often make my odds even worse and get myself in even deeper......just as Ana! LOL And, perhaps because I feel this latitude to do whatever Rosa wants to me under the guise of pushing the dominance angle, I then reverse completely on serious and real issues and find that if it's going to be real......then it needs to be fair and deserved or at least enough for me to concede the point.
ReplyDeleteAlso, as someone who will confess to things and self-report on serious things, the "take the undeserved as payback for the stuff overlooked"-argument doesn't apply or work for me emotionally. But again.....if she wants to work out a difference, I will be open-minded about it and even give a fair amount of leeway.
What I will NOT do is go along with something that is a complete mischaracterization of what actually happened. I can be persuaded though. And she has. But in the moment I am vehement, I will not consent. And though I talk about it often, it actually hasn't been something that has occurred very much. But it has occurred.
(Also, Dan: I had almost forgot about the spanking caption post I was going to do, but to be totally honest, your caption with the woman writing was actually the impetus for me to complete the project and post it! So.....thanks, I guess. LOL)
I'm on the fence on whether I'm closer to you or to ZM on this one. It's kind of an issue timing, I think. It sounds like ZM thinks he is in the right until the spanking actually begins, but by the end he thinks he was wrong. I think I'm closer to you in initially arguing the rightness of my behavior. Like you, I will argue strenuously when I think what I said or did is being wrongly interpreted. But, like ZM, I very frequently figure out that I actually was in the wrong. For me it just almost always happens before any spanking.
DeleteThere are also, btw, lots of times where I may think in the moment that I don't think I should be punished for a certain offense or category of offenses, but at some point I reverse and decide she really should have spanked me for it. At that point, I feel the regret ZM describes that she wasn't more strict.
I did see the post. There are a couple in there I really liked and may steal from you in the future. At this point, you don't know who I am, so I'm in less danger than you are of being sued for copyright infringement! LoL. I did start to respond but, man, there were like 17 pictures in there -- no way I could come up with 17 pithy comebacks. It would be like commenting on all the paragraphs in a Julie post. ;-)
Hi KD,
DeleteI totally get where you are coming from in your distinguishing between play and real DD. In play, unfairness is expected and just amplifies everything, but everything changes when it is supposed to be real. Then, in order for it to be actually BE real, a certain justice must prevail and the underlying facts must be correct.
-ZM
Yep, that's pretty much it. In the past I think I worded the whole thing in a way that prompted many to find my seemingly sketchy consent to be a problem, but when looked at like this, it is simplicity itself.
Delete"Undeserved punishment" is a very fine line.
ReplyDeleteWhile in his head, he might feel I spanked him "for no reason," I always had one, and much of it was due to my perception of the incident. I did try the "Because I said so" reasoning once very early in our relationship, and his complaint was that "Because I said so" was too arbitrary, and he wouldn't comply, and face it, most of the time the man in the relationship is bigger and stronger, so he has to cooperate for discipline. Fortunately, a reason, even a half-assed reason was all that was needed. How I feel about the misdeed plays an important part on the severity of the discipline I give. Some things "trigger" me more than others and I will act accordingly.
One last thing I'd like to share is that if an action or misdeed causes me to feel angry, I strongly feel that a corner time timeout is a necessary evil, because anger is NOT conducive to giving appropriate discipline. This is strictly my opinion, and not gospel.
"While in his head, he might feel I spanked him "for no reason," I always had one, and much of it was due to my perception of the incident." I really like that, and would be *shocked* if most of the wives haven't had similar justifications.
DeleteThank you! ☺
DeleteThere is an element of “Because I said so” in our relationship and I do respond very positively to that. But in reality our behavior rules are pretty clear, but discipline for attitude including disrespect is much more subjective and those are areas where I have been spanked arbitrarily or capriciously. We have talked about this and she sees it as a communications issue and wants me to talk about it when it happens (After, not before). I think in a DD relationship there will be times when the disciplinarian will make a bad call. But in the long run it is just a small cost against all the benefits I receive from her discipline. She sometimes reminds me that she spanks me because she loves me (spanking comes from a place of love). So even an unfair spanking is an expression of love. Also, we do have a “total obedience rule” which has been in effect since we started DD. So I am allowed minimal to no resistance once she has gone beyond the warning stage and indicated I am going to be punished (even when the actual punishment has to be delayed) After punishment I am allowed unlimited discussion of the where’s and whereas and she has on a few occasions apologized for spanking me mistakenly. But after a spanking I rarely feel like challenging her judgement about it. As ZM notes a husband usually comes to agree during or afterward that she was right and I was wrong. There is something about being spanked that makes it easier to see and acknowledge her point of view –even on things I felt strongly about before the spanking. I really do rationalize a lot of behavior but once I have been punished for it, I stop doing that and accept responsibility.
ReplyDeleteAlan
Hi Alan. "I really do rationalize a lot of behavior but once I have been punished for it, I stop doing that and accept responsibility." I haven't experienced that personally, but I do get how it could work that way. You say she has apologized a few times for spanking you mistakenly. Did those tend to be areas like disrespect that were subjective, or more mistakes about whether some concrete rule breaking had actually happened?
DeleteRegrets from her have been almost exclusively about "fairness" which has always been one of her bedrock principle in administering discipline, both whether I get spanked in the first place and then the severity of it. That emphasis on fairness is probably one reason she rarely spanks "on the spot" (which I think could be very effective). But it’s also the reason I put up very little resistance when she makes the decision to spank because I know she believes it fair and defying her in any way would under-mind her authority and sense that she is being fair. When she ever expresses any regret, it is about how fair it was and usually about the severity of it rather than whether I deserved it or not.
DeleteAlan
Got it. Thanks, Alan.
DeleteHi Alan,
DeleteI really like your approach to this. It offers her grace by understanding that even though she always tries to be fair, inevitably from time to time she is going to make mistakes, either by punishing you when you don't deserve it or possibly by delivering more punishment than is merited.
What you say about being able to communicate freely but only afterwards seems like a very intelligent approach, in particular because after punishment there quite often is better alignment in perspective and many objections just evaporate.
I really need to work on not objecting so much, since my wife too is driven by a sense of fairness, and it really does undermine her when I object. As I pointed out, there is a very real part of me that needs to be able to object and to just have her overpower my objections to make the authority seem more imposed. However, in the end if my objections cause her to second guess herself and to question her own fairness, and if that ultimately causes her to punish less often or consistently, then it is obviously very counterproductive for me to do this as it was ME who wanted this.
I am going to work on this... Hopefully it will cause her to be more likely to turn to punishment when she is irritated and more consistent in setting expectations and then holding me to it and following through. If that were to happen, then I imagine that the whole thing might actually feel more imposed. Or for that matter, perhaps the very idea that I am not allowed to object until after a spanking is delivered might make it feel more imposed as well?
Either way, I really liked the perspective that you brought to this, and it has inspired me to try to seriously ramp down my objections.
-ZM
"What you say about being able to communicate freely but only afterwards seems like a very intelligent approach, in particular because after punishment there quite often is better alignment in perspective and many objections just evaporate." Great perspective.
DeleteZM,
DeleteI have that need too as you for her to decisively take charge and make me obey her. But "challenging her authority" as she puts it, or outright disobedience in the face of an impending punishment has been a very bad strategy with her from the beginning. She really sees it as a kind of violation of consensual discipline and she has told me it sends mixed signals about wanting her be a disciplinarian. Allowing me to question it afterward is really a kind of escape valve easing that desire to rebel or resist when it is imminent. And in the long range it has made her much more “take charge” then when we started.
Alan
Hi Alan,
DeleteI am pretty convinced that this is something I need to change my approach on. We talked about it and she said that indeed it makes her second-guess or doubt herself, which is certainly not helpful. I am going to TRY to go the no-resistance tour and see how that works!
-ZM
We have both an FLR and a DD household. Being spanked for something I did not deserve may have occurred, but I would never bring it up even if afterwards it was discovered I was innocent. When she says I am to be spanked, I simply accept and never question her authority. On the FLR topic, I follow her directions to the letter. There are times we discuss it and I can voice my opinion. Sometimes she changes the directive after my input and sometimes not. Either way, I do what I am told to do.
ReplyDeleteThanks, SC. I'm definitely not close to that submissive in spirit or practice.
DeleteThe way my attraction to DD works is that punishments are fair and justified. I need that legit cause and effect. I have no control over that preference. I guess it’s just how I’m wired. While I love the idea of her being in control, I wouldn’t respond well to an abuse of that power. Growing up (my model for DD), I don’t remember any totally undeserved punishments. A HoH has a challenging level of responsibility when it comes to discipline. Honest mistakes are certainly possible, but we must recognize them and strive to avoid them. If I was leading in the relationship, I would feel awful if I was mistakenly unfair, so it works both ways.
ReplyDelete"If I was leading in the relationship, I would feel awful if I was mistakenly unfair, so it works both ways." Same here. Though, I take it further. I have always held leadership positions at work, but I really don't enjoy exercising authority or power over others. It makes me uncomfortable judging others' behavior whether I get it right or wrong. I do it sometimes because I have to, but I never really lose that sense of discomfort.
DeleteI’m lucky that I’m not in a position to have to execute authority in that way. I’m also not comfortable in that situation. DD to me is different because it’s asking to be judged and disciplined. I would feel like I was providing something desired and positive. I think if I was fair and supportive, and remained suitably humble about the granted authority, it could be mutually beneficial and satisfying with the right person. However, it’s not a need for me, so I don’t feel deprived by my wife’s lack of interest in such a thing.
DeleteSometimes it’s just easier to get it over with and bring peace back into the house.
ReplyDeleteThat's what I keep telling my wife.
DeleteGood read. I really love that opening quote from Barbrara Tuchman. I've read lots of her stuff and didn't remember it. Maybe I wasn't quite as kinky when I read it!
ReplyDeleteDiane
Hi Diane, and thanks for joining in! I'm a history buff, yet I actually have not read either of Tuchman's Pulitzer prize winners. I'm not sure where I came across that quote, but it does represent an interesting perspective on discipline and obedience.
DeleteI too am fascinated by her quote on discipline and wonder about its original context. Another Tuchman quote that invites a kinky twist is, "In the United States we have a society pervaded from top to bottom by contempt for the law." So true! But I can well imagine a disciplinary-minded wife finding this "contempt" for her "law" being exhibited by her husband, and in need of corporal correction.
DeleteThe Tuchman quote comes from "Stilwell and the American Experience in China: (1971), not one of her most popular books, but a good one for WWII buffs. Obviously the quote has a military context but would need to look at the book again for specifics. It does evoke the DD issue Dan raises this week. Maybe "Babs" was one of us.
DeleteAlan
I'm happy to contribute Dan when time permits.
DeleteAnd thanks Alan for all that info. The idea that she might be one of us is kind of cool isn't it?
Diane
Fanciful perhaps,but cool definitely
DeleteAlan
I know some guys get maintenance spankings wouldn't they be classified as undeserved? The closest to maintenance for me is when my wife decides I could use or need a spanking "just because." 'Just because' can mean anything and my wife makes it clear she doesn't need a reason but usually has one. When things have gone smoothly for a while but she's getting the brush she's said that I've been doing really well and she intends to keep it that way. At times when I don't agree totally with what I'm about to get, my wife will discuss it with me and ask me questions regarding the issue but it's usually being discussed as I'm undressing or Jennifer is lowering my jeans. My wife once was asking me how I thought she should handle a situation as I was literally being lead down over her lap. Before I could answer her the hairbrush was landing fast and furious. When she finished she didn't ask how I thought she could handle it but rather what else would I like to help me understand and she offered "a little dose of her belt." I quickly understood and let her know so with a sincere apology. (Just an FYI it's never ever been a "little" dose of the belt that I remember. I will do what I can to avoid an ass whipping as it's called when the belt is used.)
ReplyDeleteSo there are times I disagree with the discipline or punishment but I don't usually make a big fuss about it. I can't help making a big fuss while I'm getting it.
My wife's motto is 'It's just going to be a spanking and that's just the way it's going to be. William
I guess technically maintenance would fall into the "undeserved" category, though I was trying to get more at situations where the spankee doesn't agree with the underlying basis for the spanking. Maintenance seems to me to be in a more neutral category.
DeleteDan: I agree. Maintenance is a behavioral tool that can't really be defined by 'deserved' or 'undeserved' but rather whether it is effective as a preventative. As such, if it is an agreed-upon tactic, the underlying reason is valid even without an actual offense. The only thing that would make maintenance unfair would be if the behavior was not so deeply rooted that maintenance was necessary, and as such, the recipient didn't feel it was needed for good behavior to continue. However, it seems to me that most folks who practice maintenance do so because both parties find it effective and beneficial.
DeleteKD, my impression is also that many couple use maintenance for role reinforcement and not really to address particular conduct. We don’t do maintenance, so I don’t have any personal experience on that issue.
DeleteIsn’t maintenance spanking a consensual practice? If someone agrees to the practice, then they agree it’s fair. What’s their argument against it? For a guy, if he’s weak and being taken advantage of, then it’s domestic abuse.
DeleteDan,
DeleteYou said, "KD, my impression is also that many couple use maintenance for role reinforcement and not really to address particular conduct."
That would be true in my marriage. Maintenance, usually reserved for Saturday evenings, is normally to remind my husband that he is submissive to me and that I am the undisputed boss. It is for "role reinforcement," but it also leads to erotic fun. Since I reserve the right to control the intimacy, he's all in! I don't mistreat my husband, however, and he craves a few strokes of the cane. Our session can also be for punishment when he deserves it. I may punish him at other times and in ways other than spanking. He was a little short with me on Sunday morning, and I punished him by making him text me every 15 minutes while he shopped and took our cars for gas (naturally I'm under no obligation to respond to him with a text, and I let a few misses go if he's driving). One punishment that probably wasn't deserved happened because he gave me strong objections when I assigned him cooking duties on the weekends. His punishment was that he would be spending the upcoming weekend home cleaning the house from top to bottom. He already does much of the cleaning and it really didn't need it. I didn't back down he did as he was ordered and I inspected the work. That ended any objection to his picking up the cooking duties on the weekends, and might be in "preventive" column.
CarolH.
Volveremos mejores
ReplyDeleteI like the rule that the husband can't complain until after the punishment. It irritates me when Jimmy starts whining when I send him for the bath brush. The result is not so good for his behind! So it actually would be better for both of us if there is no discussion until afterwards. I am better able to listen then, after I have gotten my aggravation out of my system. Though I do not believe I have ever punished him unfairly.
ReplyDeleteI like the idea that whether he thinks it's fair or unfair, he still gets it and then he can tell me!
Belle
Belle,
DeleteTell him what you expect and make it clear what the consequences of excessive whining are going to be. Some resistance and even backtalk is probably normal early in a DD relationship but nipping it in the bud is the best way to stop it. My wife doesn’t always send me for her brush but when she has signaled a spanking is imminent she has told me that all she wants to hear from me is “Yes ma’am”. Your willingness to discuss things after you have administered is very fair and frankly all he should need to accept your decision. But make it clear (if you haven’t already) that he can discuss his protests after you have dealt with him. Most of the time he will find out that all of his reasons to not be spanked have magically disappeared
Alan
I just want to put in a perspective for the numerous readers of this blog who may never have had an adult DWC type spanking or no longer have them.
ReplyDeleteThese are all what I call "high class" problems. The nuances of the relationships; whether big or small issues, while of course important, are small potatoes to the guys who "can't get no satisfaction."
And all your readers, me included, thoroughly enjoy being invited to read and comment. I'm just saying...
Hi Tomy,
ReplyDeleteYou are so very right about this. You and I come at it from entirely opposite perspectives. For most of my life I craved DD but simply couldn’t get it, since my ex-wife of over 25 years was entirely against DD and in fact had a revulsion to it. Now I am married to someone who fulfills my every need and want, who has taken to DD in a way I hadn’t even dared to wish for. So having it after so many years of craving it make me appreciate it so very much.
On the other hand, I know that you suffered a huge loss of your beloved wife a few years back. I can’t imagine the feelings that come with that, but I expect that as you look back, mixed in with sadness and whatever feelings you might have, you also have a profound sense of gratefulness for having had what so many men only wish for. But having had that probably makes the absence of it even harder. I hope life will lead you another relationship that will fill this need.
When seen from the perspective of not having and then finally getting, or from having had and then having lost, you are absolutely right that any differences in style or practice are not all that significant.
-ZM
Tomy and ZM,
DeleteWell put and we all owe thanks to Dan for providing and continuing a forum for full and intelligent discussion of F/M oriented DD. Resistance to DD where it is wanted/needed by one spouse can be a relationship killer –and I am convinced much of the resistance (not all) comes from deeply rooted myths about what DD is, who practices it and what effect it has on both spouses. This blog has demolished a lot of the taboo surrounding females disciplining males while providing much insight about how to start a new DD relationship or simply improve an existing one. Many of us experience deep frustration explaining what DD is at the beginning of a relationship. (This is not just an F/M problem, as the numerous blogs by women seeking an M/F relationship reveal) Blogs provide an essential forum that can address that frustration – and this one does
DeleteDan's Blog is a Freakin Beacon - I'm all in as far as appreciating it. He's a class act and the blog is a class space.