“The leader can never close the gap between himself and the group. If he does, he is no longer what he must be. He must walk a tightrope between the consent he must win and the control he must exert.” - Vince Lombardi
Hi all. Welcome to the Disciplined Husbands Forum. Our weekly gathering of men and women participating or interested in Domestic Discipline Relationships. I hope you had a good week.
It was kind of an interesting week where DD was concerned, even though no spanking happened. The fact that one didn’t happen was both noteworthy and kind of expected given our track record where consistency is concerned. What was noteworthy was that what got me into deserving a spanking was also kind of what got me out of it. The short story in terms of what got me in trouble was I was surly with my wife. Twice in one morning. The slightly longer story is, I was feeling pretty lousy that morning, which has been a problem for a week or more. I’m not sure what is going on. I even wondered briefly whether I might have Covid, though I am now pretty sure I don’t. Whether it was the flu or some other virus, I’m not sure. I just felt extremely tired and achy, which made me surly. There isn’t any real doubt that I did mouth off and it was very inappropriate and unwarranted. She didn’t do anything at the time because she was leaving for work. But, when she got home that day, she told me I was going to get spanked. There was some interruption that night, however. I kept expecting it all week, but she kept having “mercy” on me for various reasons, including that I was watching the Democratic National Convention, and I’m a political junkie. But, I think much of it came down to, she knew I was still feeling lousy, so she let me off the hook. As usual, I have mixed feelings about that. This was one of the few times in recent history that she ordered a spanking specifically because of me showing a lack of respect, which is something we keep saying she should do more often. But, as is too often the case, I managed to delay, finally delaying so long that I wonder now how much immediate connection I would feel to the underlying offense were she to spank me for it now. I guess it’s just another one of those situations I have to write off to reality interfering with our best laid plans.
What a great discussion last week! It meandered quite a bit, but that was what made it interesting and engaging. Somehow in one week we touched on maintenance spanking, preventative spankings, consent, psychological control and dominance overcoming non-consent, empty nesting, post-orgasm spankings, and family histories of spanking and discipline. There were a couple of months of topics flying around in one week! I do plan to hit on several of these in the near future, but for this week I tried to narrow it down to one. I’m a little concerned we might have exhausted it last week, but hopefully others will weigh in and maybe those who talked last week will have things to add.
I narrowed this week’s topic to consent: its necessity, its frustrations, its limitations, the fantasy of not having it, its boundaries, its limits, etc. In a nutshell, my question is, what role does consent play in your DD relationship, what are its limits, and is it desirable or, perhaps, something you wish wasn’t as inevitable as it kind of is?
This topic suggests a pretty big range of subtopics:
· Was your DD relationship "imposed" on you in some way? For example, did your wife finally get fed up with your behavior and tell you that she was going to spank you?
· If there was no such express lack of consent, was there a situation like Liz and Art’s where spanking became kind of a quid pro quo for staying together after his behavior almost brought the relationship to and end?
· Even though you (the husband) probably consented to the DD relationship as a whole, have you had spankings that you consented to only under some kind of coercion or threat (ending the relationship, perhaps) employed to get you to comply?
· If you wanted to withdraw consent now, would she let you? Ladies, if he said he’d like to drop the DD aspect of your relationship, i.e. withdraw his consent, what would your reaction be?
· Even though you may as a practical matter always have the ability to withdraw consent and resist, has her authority or dominance become such that as a practical matter you won’t or even feel like you can’t?
· For the men, do you actually like that DD is consensual, or do you kind of want something like parental discipline where there really isn’t a choice? In other words, is part of the attraction to DD or FLR that that there is an involuntary element to it? Does part of you need that element of "non-consent" in order for it to feel like you really are being controlled or dominated?
· For the women, do you have any views or feelings about the role consent does or does not play? Does it make you feel more powerful the more you feel like discipline is something you are imposing whether he likes it or not? Or, conversely, is it important to you that you feel he is consenting on an ongoing basis?
These and other aspects of the consent issue were raised by several of last week’s comments, including:
Al: Regardless of how much we want to the spankings to be "real punishment" - in which the husband has to accept whenever the wife decides, with no questions asked - ultimately, there is always consent involved at some level. In that regard, it is never truly like a parent spanking a child - where the child has no say about it all - it is never truly involuntarily punishment. Even though the husband may not have to "consent" to any given spanking, he has given a blanket consent by agreeing to enter the DWC contract. And, really, he can walk away or refuse to be spanked at any time. So whether the spanking is for a specific punishment, preventative, or maintenance there is always underlying consent.
That said, many disciplined husbands (myself included), reach a point where they are psychologically almost incapable of refusing a spanking once their wife has decided that they have one coming. It is an acceptance of her disciplinary prerogative that, to me, is far more of a submission than any involuntary discipline. Even though I recognize that I have a desire to be a spanked husband, I also know when my wife tells me to assume the position (for punishment, maintenance, preventative) - that the spanking is going to be genuinely painful - that she will set my ass on fire with that damn bathbrush (or whatever implement she chooses). Crossing her lap anyway and accepting that pain is the real submission (hot and sexy thought before and after the spanking, not so much during the spanking).
Alan: This is something I sometimes ponder in the context of blanket consensual spanking ( a concept that captures the real dynamic of consent) Some while ago with a former girlfriend, we were having a conversation about what would happen if I rebelled or just refused to take a spanking. Her answer was that she was in complete control "when we were together" (meaning in physical proximity versus over the phone) and she was very confident that I couldn't and wouldn't disobey her about a spanking. Another time she told me that I had given her disciplinary authority and I couldn't "take it away" There were the first times I realized I really could not stop or resist for long a spanking she had decided upon. In addition to consenting to her spanking I had taught her how to push all my "spanko buttons" and she had learned well. She never relay abused her authority and my wife never has but it is sobering sometimes to realize the bridges I burned behind me when I consented. It is not a power lightly given or easily withdrawn. I don't consider that a negative of any kind and in fact it makes DD much more authentic. But in the early days I got through some pretty severe spankings telling myself I could stop it if I wanted. That was an illusion and it would be now too if I deluded myself about it. It's not that physically I couldn't stop it but psychologically probably not.
ZM: And on the consent issue, yes I physically could stop any punishment in theory, but submission feeds continued submission, so even though I have the strength and the right to stop things, I couldn’t bring myself to do it. Plus since we don’t have per-punishment consent, but rather only blanket consent, while I could withdraw consent at any time, it would be the blanket consent I would be withdrawing, which might well lead to a life of frustration without the imposed discipline I so want and need. So in the end, I may consent to it, but I am easily controlled by my own desires and would not and could not withdraw that consent.
You can definitely count me among those who recognizes that I consented to, and continue to consent to, our DD relationship. I am, in fact, all too aware of it. I am one of those whose attraction to DD really hinges on it being as close to involuntary as is practically possible and that is attracted to the maternal aspects of DD, and to stories and art involving school spankings, precisely because those were not voluntary. That non-consensual aspect was definitely part of what both fascinated and terrified me about DD, and that has not changed that much even today.
So, tell us all about what roleconsent or "consensual non-consent" play in your DD relationship.
Also, I want to thank Art, Al and others who commented on the value of this blog brings when it’s at its best. It’s gratifying to read such comments, and while I don’t over-estimate the importance of this thing we do in the overall scheme or our lives and marriages, I do hop the blog plays some concrete positive role for a few of you.
I hope you have a great week.
Dan has already quoted my take on consent in the main post above - specifically that at some level of our disciplinary arrangements, consent is always involved, often a blanket consent - but still a consent that can be walked away from at any moment, albeit with potential relationship consequences, either immediate or long term. And, with the other half of that equation being that although we can theoretically withdraw consent at any time and refuse any given spanking, I am not alone in finding that actually refusing a spanking would be very psychologically difficult.
ReplyDeleteAlan wrote:
>There were the first times I realized I really could not stop or resist for long a spanking she had decided upon. In addition to consenting to her spanking I had taught her how to push all my "spanko buttons" and she had learned well.<
I can very much relate to my wife figuring out my "spanko buttons" - and really, I taught them to my wife as well in those very first days and weeks of our journey into the DWC lifestyle. She literally just has to say certain things to me in a certain way (various spanking euphemisms spoken with an absolute assertiveness) for me to be seemingly powerless to do anything but drop my pants and assume the position. And even more so if she has an implement in her hand while pronouncing sentence.
I can still vividly recall the first time that I realized that I could not refuse a spanking even if I wanted to. We had been in our disciplinary arrangement for a couple of months or so, when on a Saturday afternoon when the kids were out for the day, Susan decided that I was being really grumpy and needed an attitude adjustment. The truth is that I was in a bad mood for whatever reason, and when she told me to fetch the paddle for her, for the first time since we had been on this path, I really did not want a spanking at all - I was definitely "not in the mood", and briefly considered refusing.
But then I realized that I couldn't refuse. At one level I realized that it would be wrong to not follow the terms of the contract that we had agreed upon - but then I realized it was more than just that. It dawned upon me that my wife had told me that I was going to get spanked - so I was going to get my bare ass beaten, whether I liked it or not, no questions asked. Refusal just did not seem to be an option.
And so I fetched the paddle for her, and she thoroughly blistered my behind, as always. She then told me afterwards that she could tell that I was "pouting' and did not want a spanking, but that she knew that I really needed one to help with my attitude, and she was sure that my mood would soon improve. And she was right, there was even adult playtime shortly thereafter.
--al
Hi al. It probably shouldn't be surprising that men can be conditioned to accept authority whether they like it or not. While it's probably not as common today by a long-shot, for my generation and certainly the generation before, I think lots of teenage boys (and girls) got their asses warmed by mothers and fathers long after said teenagers were physically capable of resisting. Similarly, how many people give in to other authority figures like bosses and other authority figures even in situations where there might not be great consequences for objecting.
DeleteThough, I can't say I've personally gotten to that point where I'm not pretty aware that I could resist or simply back out of the DD relationship. But, as you and ZM pointed out, resisting or backing out of individual punishments probably does substantially increase the chances that she stops doing this entirely, or her confidence is undermined in a way that defeats the consistency most of us say we want.
Our wives seem to take on that maternal role when they see we are sick or under the weather , so I'm not surprised at all that your wife gave you a reprieve on that one Dan. Mother's would never punish a sick child , no matter how naughty they had been , so your wife instinctively slipped into her motherly role which got you off the hook.
ReplyDeleteHowever , once you are feeling better , I expect she will 'park' that role and step right into her strict wife shoes and resume the 'discussion' on your lack of respect.
For us my wife has my full consent to dish out discipline when certain rules are broken , and disrespect , snapping at her or cutting her off are top of the list for us and cannot be ignored or skipped over.
I have never had the coincidence of sickness when a spanking is due but suspect my wife would have reacted similar to Anne and mothered me....but the incident would not go without correction when she was ready.
Actually , a good sound thrashing would likely have cured you of whatever ailed you , and watching the convention sitting on a sore backside would have been a solid lesson in respect !
Get well soon and here's hoping Anne's memory on this incident is as sound as my wife's!
Thanks, Glen. Mothering in the moment but not forgetting to deal with it later seems like a very wise course.
DeleteMother's never forget to In would get ready for one heck of z a spanking if I were you Dan!
DeleteMy wife is most definitely aware of how I am feeling. There've been several times when she has put off a spanking because I wasn't feeling well. If she isn't able to do it after a few days, she generally says that there is no point in spanking me so far from the offense. She rarely forgets to follow through, but when she does she eventually recognizes her error and lets me know she will do better next time.
ReplyDeleteI know that I am physically capable of resisting a spanking. There have been times when I absolutely didn't want my bare butt beaten. She could see how angry I was that she wanted me in position to be punished. To her credit, that didn't stop her. I wanted to refuse. I thought about it. It wasn't that I felt compelled to accept the punishment. It was more that I knew her confidence would be damaged if I resisted.
For me at least, the bottom line is that I want DD. Even at times when I am absolutely angry at the idea of being beaten, part of me knows that this is the price for surrendering control.
It's particularly difficult for me to accept a spanking for behavior I don't think deserved it. This came up last week when we were talking while driving to a farm stand. She made some comment that was in my opinion, incorrect. I thought I politely corrected her. She felt that I took over the conversation in a disrespectful way.
She spanked me for this. I was wise enough not to argue but I felt the spanking was undeserved. I think this is where the consent issue becomes particularly important. It really doesn't matter whether or not I agree with what behavior she finds unacceptable. I understand this and I realize that if she consistently punishes me when I repeat this behavior, eventually I will stop.
At this relatively early point in our DD activity, I'm not sure she believes she can make me change in terms of some of the things I do that annoy her. She's already seen how her strict enforcement of physical rules, like doing chores, is remarkably effective. She has yet to internalize how she can use her authority to change the way I relate to her.
If she isn't completely convinced that she has the right to punish me for annoying her, any resistance on my part will probably shut her down. The real reason I can't resist is that I understand the value of what we are doing. It's far better for me to accept unjust spankings then to stop the benefits of our disciplinary relationship.
Hi CagedLion,
Delete“
At this relatively early point in our DD activity, I'm not sure she believes she can make me change in terms of some of the things I do that annoy her. She's already seen how her strict enforcement of physical rules, like doing chores, is remarkably effective. She has yet to internalize how she can use her authority to change the way I relate to her.”
I think this is pretty much where we have been. Only recently has she began to realize just how much she can use her authority for her benefit by addressing things that irritate her.
I think this represents a turning point in the relationship. She is more likely to take it more seriously if she knows she gains something from it too. I also expect, but don’t really know, that this is also where the line between DD and FLR might start to get a bit blurrier.
-ZM
“The real reason I can't resist is that I understand the value of what we are doing. It's far better for me to accept unjust spankings then to stop the benefits of our disciplinary relationship.”
ReplyDeleteI don’t doubt that this describes what happens in Caged Lion’s relationship – but it is much more “rational” than the emotional consensual non consent that I, al, and ZM have described (or at least what I understand they are describing.) Certainly after a spanking you didn’t want/deserve, one thinks this way, but in the moment the reaction is much more visceral Part of it is years of training, part is her use of verbal and physical cues she knows works and part is the strong conviction that I owe her obedience and submission to her authority because I asked for it originally. But all of that is wrapped in strong emotion in the moment that leaves me psychologically unwilling/unable to resist what is happening. Afterward I am always glad I did not resist but it was anything but a rational decision at the time.
Alan
Hi Alan,
DeleteExactly right. In the moment I am certainly not reacting based on logic.
The one part of DD that I can never quite reconcile is my feeling about everything “in the monent” vs at other times. And this goes to the heart of consent. Anytime other than “in the moment” I am all for DD and I clearly see my need for it, and that is the basis for my blanket consent. But when punishment is imminent, I soooo don’t want it at all, so I am thankful that I don’t have to give consent at that time!
And once you start down this path and her authority becomes clear, not consenting just is no longer really an option.
-ZM
In my opinion, if the "unfair/undeserved" spankings are a rare occurrence, it's best to chalk it up to the imperfections of every social arrangement; political systems, legal systems, all of it - human-made stuff (marriage).
ReplyDeleteIf those things occur frequently, again in my opinion, you have a problem.
Tomy, I totally agree. At some point, you have to ask whether a disciplinarian who is constantly acting in unfair ways or coming to wrong factual conclusions should really be in that position in the first place.
DeleteUnless you're physically smaller and weaker, being blackmailed, or chained to a wall, every spanking you get is being consented to.
ReplyDeleteWe just go with what feels right. I don't consent to anything unfair unless I can be convinced of its fairness eventually. Why have a spouse be cold, silent, and brooding when you can have them happily catering to you with just a few concessions?
But you're a Determinist -- isn't it more accurate to say that none of your spankings are *really* consensual, since the choice to consent is just an illusion? :-)
DeleteAnd, under your theory, isn't doing something under the threat of blackmail still consent? Yeah, it was coerced consent, but still consent.
Very clever, Dan. He who insists that he believes in Determinism is not allowed to make real decisions. They simply don't exist. "Consent is just an illusion." ;-)
DeleteDan: I live for the day when you fuck with the ravings of some of the way more spurious contributions here to the degree you feel empowered to fuck with mine. Maybe it's just my current mood, but I am not amused by this apparent, rather insulting, dismissal. Maybe if I was a "female" contributor you'd be more receptive? Even if I was really just a masquerading male pretending to be female. Maybe you were just joking, by virtue of the ":-)" but regardless, I don't find this reply very funny.
DeleteKD, you kind of feel empowered to fuck with everyone's comments here, while letting the most asinine stuff slide on your own blog. People in glass houses . . .
DeleteGuys; the whole damn country is embroiled in fits of anger and resentment. So I'm not addressing the content of your arguments. I'm offering the perspective that we are all over-stressed and suggesting, (hoping) we can return to civility here and not turn on one another.
DeleteAgain..NOT addressing the content of arguments but the attacking. Come on guys. Let's rise above eh?
If someone is in a DD relationship, reading about the idea for entertainment on a regular basis, and is eager to share their real-life experiences of punishment with other enthusiasts, I assume they want the relationship they’re in. If a person like that is saying they were coerced or have things imposed on them against their will, I’d be curious to know why they are an enthusiastic participant in their non-consent.
ReplyDeleteThere’s reality and fantasy. As a fantasist, I love the idea of non-consent. In fact, that’s the ingredient in the discipline dynamic that gives it the flavor I crave. Is the reality of non-consent possible for anyone who loves non-consent? I enjoy reading about it. Has anyone here not fantasized about DD? If not, why do you like talking about DD?
Maybe if my wife was an enthusiast who took the lead, I would have followed. I think that’s the best I could hope for. Leading and following consensually. If her discipline makes sense, then the binding factors are respect for her that results in fetish gratification for the both of us. The big attraction is that she wants to be in control, and being fair is her goal. I don’t expect her to be a perfect judge. A surrender to that is consensual. That’s at least similar to my adolescence. I surrendered to my parents. I could have fought them but didn’t.
Brett wrote:
ReplyDelete>If a person like that is saying they were coerced or have things imposed on them against their will, I’d be curious to know why they are an enthusiastic participant in their non-consent.<
This is an excellent point that has also crossed my mind before. And that is that any men out there (if any) who are actually "coerced" into being "unwillingly" spanked husbands (blackmail, threat of divorce, threat of sexual deprivation, etc - all plot devices I've encountered in F/M spanking fiction) - are not likely to be enthusiastically engaging in this Forum. :) --al
The "(if any)" is probably an important qualifier.
DeleteI'm not sure what the relevant line is, but I don't think it's what you explore in fantasy versus what you would do in reality, at least not for some of the men in these relationships. The obvious corollary is female rape fantasies. It's widely reported that forced sex is a pretty common female fantasy. But, it's equally true that those with those fantasies want them to stay just that -- fantasies. I'm not sure the same is true for many men in DD relationships. I think the DWC stories of women taking charge and basically announcing the new regime resonate so powerfully because that is what many men want. The gap isn't between what you'd do in fantasy versus what you'd do in reality but, rather, what you'd like to experience versus what you can given the situational reality.
Friends:
ReplyDeleteI think we are mowing down a "straw mam" here. A few of us including al have been trying to tease out the nuances involved in consent in long term DD relationships -and indeed it is nuanced. But no one as far as I am aware is claiming they were really coerced or abused -quite the opposite. In fact I suspect an abused male in a DD relationship is rare to vanishing. At the same time, there will always be room for disagreement and mistakes where human judgement is involved –and giving a wife or girlfriend authority to discipline is asking her to use her judgement. Every couple needs to work that out for themselves. As I have mentioned, my wife allows unlimited discussion after a punishment has been administered both as feedback and constructive criticism. That works well for us for the infrequent occasion it is needed.
Alan
Nuanced is right, Alan. The options of "nothing is consensual", "everything is consensual", and "everything is fantasy and rationalization anyway so who cares", don't reflect the experienced reality and reduce to pretty boring linguistic analysis or pretty transparent attempts to project one's own reality onto everyone else. People will either understand this distinction or they won't depending on their exposure to 20th century philosophy, but it's basically Ludwig Wiggenstein's two competing philosophies. The first saw language and much of philosophy as a dry exercise in assigning literalist meaning to words. He later completely reversed and looked at language as inherently contextual and a means of giving meaning to shared impressions and experiences. We can explore whether "consent" includes giving in to blackmail, and whether the desire for something to be non-consensual is impossible precisely because you desire it, but does any of that reflect the lived reality, and is it even the least bit interesting.
DeleteHonestly, I almost didn't post this week because I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that this was exactly where things would go, just like they have every other time I've tried to explore this.
“Lived reality” is an essential, albeit wholly subjective concept. Nevertheless, reality, or at least our perception of it, is a necessary illusion –necessary in the event we want to appear sane and more or less function in the world we think we inhabit. I have no doubt there is objective reality in a scientific empirical sense, but I have every doubt that we have evolved even close to where we can accurately perceive it or experience it. That is one reason humans disagree (including philosophers) –we inhabit different realities, one implication of which is we live in different worlds. For a topic as emotionally charged as adult spanking our differences will manifest themselves often vividly. I believe discussion and debate moves us closer to deeper levels of shared understanding. But that is a process and journey both long and arduous. I am glad you posted this week
DeleteAlan
In my experience online, consensual non-consent has always been a paradox that certain kinds of spankos and discipline fetishists love to examine from every angle, even some who claim the discussions are useless, pedantic and ultimately not worthy of their time. I certainly haven’t figured it out, and I often don’t understand what I read, yet I still find the whole thing fascinating. What’s real are the complex desires we have. One pleasure is to try to make some kind of sense out of it, and I think this thread has been an honest attempt by people who have the genuine feelings, even those of us who don’t qualify as philosophers.
DeleteHi Brett,
DeleteDD and FLR are just FULL of paradoxes. Even as I understand myself and my disciplinary desires more, I still can’t resolve some of the paradoxes, and in fact keep finding more!
-ZM
"Ludwig Wiggenstein" - levels of sophistication never cease to amaze me (and definitely go beyond me).
ReplyDeleteThat's what I got with my B.A. degree -- a head stuffed full of interesting but useless information and a $7.50 an hour starting salary!
DeleteFor goodness sake, a couple of anti-intellectuals in our midst -who knew. But as my favorite ( soon to be) ex president liked to say: "it is what it is" -now there is real profundity.
DeleteAlan
I hate to admit it, but that was a phrase I used a lot . . . until recently it lost its appeal. Golly, I wonder why.
DeleteAlan,
DeleteHow rude, to call me anti-intellectual. I looked it up and I'm not that and I doubt that Dan is either. I'll have you know some of my best friends can read.
Tomy
I think reeding is overrated.
DeleteAlan
An odd sentiment from a riter
DeleteTouche!
DeleteThis is Arthur. Consent has not been a complicated issue for us so far. We talked extensively before we started our DD, and we designed it together. So I consented to what I helped design and have had no problem following through.
ReplyDeleteBecause we do not have an FLR, Liz does not have the authority to impose some additional types of punishment or reasons for punishment that we have not discussed. We would have to discuss it together and I would have to agree.
While I do not like pain, I do like regularity and I looked forward to knowing that I was going to be paddled every Monday morning to remind me to curb my arrogance. I have missed our regular schedule due to the kids not being in school. That changed this week and I can still feel what my wife administered two days ago!
There have been occasional paddlings in between Mondays that Liz has imposed, always for good reasons and I have willingly consented to them. I do think I would consent even if I thought it was not a good reason because I did agree to give her that authority. She often recognizes my arrogance before I do, so I need to have faith in her judgment. As others have mentioned, my potential disagreement often disappears during the lecture and application of the paddle. Most of what comes out of my mouth afterwards is "thank you, Ma'am."
If we have had even a small issue with consent, I think it is that sometimes Liz is not in the mood on a Monday morning and she would like to skip it but she feels obligated to paddle me so she "consents" to do so.
Arthur
Hi Arthur. That last line is an interesting angle on consent; one that I had not thought of. Are you back at work at the office these days? I work out of a couple of offices. One is still closed. The other is officially open, but the attendance is so light it's hardly worth making the commute.
DeleteDan,
DeleteWe have the same thing (officially open but light attendance) but I am one of the few going into the office because I am sick of being at home 24/7. Plus my commute is easy.
There is something about the routine of getting dressed and going in to work that is good for me. There are very few people at work to be arrogant with, so that is good too. And I think Liz is glad to have everyone out of the house after us all being on top of one another since March.
Monday was the first time in a long time that I put on my suit, bent over the desk and got paddled, and was sent off to work with a kiss on the cheek. It felt right. Liz was smiling too!
Arthur
I've tried to go in a few times, but it seems like whether I am at the office or at home, almost all my interactions with colleagues is over Zoom.
DeleteJimmy starts whining just about every time I send him for the bath brush, but he also goes and gets it and hands it to me. So he does consent, though not without running his mouth a bit, and that tends to get him extra. If he ever refused I think I would get really pissed off, since he asked me to start punishing him and we both know it is improving his behavior. He knows my expectation is that he is going to comply. If he refused, there definitely is a chance that I would stop the DD completely. That could affect us getting back together, or at least the timing of it. I think he knows all this and this forces his non-consensual consent, if there is such a thing.
ReplyDeleteI must say that consenting to be punished is a beautiful thing. A gift. When I see the man I love who is a foot taller and a hundred pounds heavier than me taking down his jeans and bending over the arm of the couch ... I don't even know if I can put it in words. I feel respected and loved and obeyed and cared for and it's even more than all of those combined. It draws us closer in an intimacy that rivals the sex act itself. I know that isn't news to many of you, but it sure has been news to me.
I appreciate and respect his consent to let me punish him. I know he is LETTING me. He is letting me help him be a better man, and what more important role can a wife have?
Belle
Belle,
DeleteYou wrote: “It draws us closer in an intimacy that rivals the sex act itself”. While the intimacy of spanking may not be a surprise it is very gratifying to hear something like that from a partner who is administering the discipline. I remember when my former girlfriend (who introduced me to DD) first said something like that. As I recall it we were having a conversation about sex and why we were having a period when it wasn’t happening and she just interjected that spanking me was more intimate than sex. It wasn’t an idea that surprised me but hearing her say that made me realize how very intimate it was. Jimmy might like to hear something like that from you
Alan
Here is my thought about the intimacy of F/m DD - It is one of the few times that a male shows true vulnerability to a woman. Males of course are socialized to not show vulnerability and to see it as a sign of weakness. So for a husband to willingly accept punishment that makes him extremely vulnerable in the presence of and triggered by his wife is a rare occurrence. This may be the main reason why so few men are unwilling to enter a DD marriage. For all Jimmy's macho swagger - which is a big turn-on for me - I truly respect him showing me his vulnerable side - which also is a huge turn-on for me.
DeleteBelle
Agreed on all points:being disciplined with a spanking by someone you love, respect and trust just peels away layers of psychological armor down to the core. It has to be real and he needs to really surrender to the punishment –but when that happens and the disciplinarian understand what is happening- it is emotional dynamite.
DeleteAlan
Hi Alan, it is this vulnerability that I desire more than anything, and also fear more than anything! It is so powerful.
Delete-ZM
I can totally see the hard core BDSM crowd having intense philosophical debates over the nature of consent, as well as others easily dismissing that discussion as a waste of time. And while I find philosophical and metaphysical discussions even more interesting than DD, I don't often mix DD and philosophical thought to any serious extent.
ReplyDeletePhilosophy and metaphysics aside, and with the understanding that all spanked husbands obviously grant consent to their wives to blister their ass at some level, it seems that most of us have granted our wives the authority (in written contract or verbal agreement) to administer spankings at their sole discretion - whenever they choose to do so and for any reason they deem appropriate or possibly no reason at all. I enjoyed Alan's description that his wife only wanted to hear the words "yes, Ma'am" after she had made her decision that a spanking was in order, but after which Alan was free to discuss the spanking as much as he liked - a nice example of "no consent required" in regard to any one particular spanking (given under the initial blanket consent, and with the knowledge that one can always refuse, but in doing so may disempower the disciplinary arrangement)
I did note, however, that Arthur and his wife seem to have a somewhat different arrangement, with the Monday morning spanking routine. (Although I typically receive a Sunday evening maintenance spanking, that definitely does not preclude her from choosing to spank me at any other time she so decides).
I would guess that most of us live under that type of arrangement - where the blanket consent (initial contract) takes away the need for consent for any individual spanking - making the individual spankings seem, in effect, to be non-consensual at any given time, especially when aided by the psychological compulsion to accept the spanking without argument. And I would believe that for most of us that would be the desired effect for us to meaningfully appreciate the experience of imposed discipline. Having a veto power over the wife's decision to apply the hardwood is obviously an non-sequitur, and contrary to the point and purpose of being a disciplined husband.
Once we have agreed to become a disciplined husband with the implicit blanket consent, we might find it meaningful to ask to what extent and how easily we are able to accept a spanking that our wife has decreed, especially if it seems arbitrary or even unjust. Or to what degree we experience that psychological compulsion to take what we having coming (as some of us have written about)? To what extent is *our experience* of non-consent - that our wife is spanking us for a bad attitude whether we like it our, and refusal is not even an option? --al
While I don't claim to have a lot of insight into how real BDSM encounters work, my impression is they really don't have any interesting conversations about consent at all. Because of the nature of their encounters, the necessity for express consent is emphasized ad nauseum. It's reflected in premises like there *must* always be a safe word. On the other hand, domestic discipline is just way more nuanced where consent is concerned, which leads to more complicated and nuanced conversations. I think the difference between the two is summed up in your sentence: "Having a veto power over the wife's decision to apply the hardwood is obviously an non-sequitur, and contrary to the point and purpose of being a disciplined husband."
DeleteNow, interestingly, you are the author of my favorite story on the DWC site, Even More, which is one of the very few on there in which the husband initiates the DD lifestyle and it is clear he has the option to back out of it at any time. As long as he can figure out a way to behave himself. I suspect that is a pretty realistic depiction of where many DD wives end up with respect to consent -- the husband is free to call an end to the DD lifestyle, but are they ever going to go back to just letting him get away with all the bad attitude and behavior issues? Probably not.
(RE: BDSM conversations) Dan, I'm sure you are most likely correct about the conversations that occur - or don't occur - during BDSM encounters. I was referring to discussions on the BDSM forums - where I do understand that there is a lot of debate about consent and such. I understand that one popular topic for discussion is about how the bottom is actually in control of the scene, appearances to the contrary.
Delete>the husband is free to call an end to the DD lifestyle, but are they ever going to go back to just letting him get away with all the bad attitude and behavior issues? Probably not.<
Good point - and tangentially addressed earlier this week by the contributor who said that while there might not be an immediate consequence to his hypothetically refusing to continue to be a disciplined husband, there could easily be a long term consequence - because without the discipline, his behavior would likely deteriorate, and lead to marital issues. (Excuse the paraphrase - but I think I captured the point).
I really can't imagine dropping out of the DWC lifestyle at this stage - after so many years (other than perhaps due to eventual old age), but if we did for whatever reason, my wife would absolutely not tolerate a resurgent arrogant attitude. As you suggest, I suspect this would likely be true for many DWC wives who have become well established in this lifestyle.
Thanks for the kind comment on "Even More" - I am glad that some folks have found it entertaining, and perhaps even helpful. --al
I personally would not want blanket consent to punish my husband anytime, anywhere, for any reason. I know that works for some, but not for us. For one, we don't have an FLR relationship and I do not want one. For another, I do not want that much responsibility, where it is my judgment alone. That sounds like a dictator and that is not me. My husband and I decide most things together, and that is how we want it.
ReplyDeleteI still consider my husband the HoH of our family. In many ways we have a traditional marriage. I cook and clean and take care of the kids while he brings home the bacon. It's just that sometimes the HoH gets paddled!
Liz
I can definitely understand not wanting full FLR responsibility. Honestly, I think many husbands who want DD are attracted to it precisely because they have too much responsibility in their lives, and DD is a way of yielding some responsibility and control.
DeleteHi Liz - I very much enjoyed your comment. Although my wife does have blanket consent to paddle me at her sole discretion - anytime for any reason, we also do not have an FLR-style marriage. While it is not as traditional as yours, we do have a "typical modern partnership style" marriage - where we each contribute financially, share the chores (we have a yard guy, so I do most of the laundry, she does most of the cooking, and we split the rest). I handle the money and the investments and such because I am better at that, and she organizes our life style because she is better at that - including making sure that I stay well behaved. The spanking in our home is seldom about not doing chores or such - but very much about keeping my arrogant attitude and mouth in line. :) --al
DeleteI want to reinforce what al is saying because the confusion about it seems common. We too have a strong DD, but no FLR. Neither of us want an FLR and it would not fit our personalities or our relationship. But she does have and exercises unlimited authority to administer disciplinary spankings. Discipline in effect is her province of authority and responsibilities among others while I share still other responsibilities and we share chores. I know that many couples who use discipline apparently also incorporate the FLR structure into their relationship. That’s fine for anyone who has done so or is interested in that style of relationship. But female controlled DD is another option that at least some of us live
DeleteAlan
I guess to me the female-controlled DD sounds a lot like FLR. If she can spank you anytime for any reason, then can't she "motivate" you to do anything she wants whenever she wants it? That sounds like FLR. But I realize I don't know that much about it.
ReplyDeleteNot only am I not interested in FLR, I am not interested in DD where I am in total control of when, why, etc. I like the very limited version of DD that we have now. It helps Art immensely with his arrogance. I note that many of the men on here are punished for arrogance. Art doesn't really have another issue that concerns me, so there is no reason to expand our DD beyond our original agreement.
Liz
I think the point on the spectrum where something goes from DD to some form of FLR is very hard to pin down, and it's probably pointless to try. And, I'm not sure it's even really a spectrum. I've always maintained that "real" DD really is separate from BDSM, D/s, etc. because of the focus on behavior modification, accountability, etc. It's really not about being dominant or submissive, per se. To me FLR is kind of a separate dynamic that may or may not be part of the DD dynamic, and it's distinguishing characteristic is the amount of decision making authority. I have one female friend I've referenced here several times who used to write an FLR blog. When we've talked about specifics of our relationships, hers does encompass DD but the extent to which she sees herself as "the decider" (to quote a former Republican president who looks better and better to me every day) on a range of major family issues is definitely very different from our dynamic. I see my relationship as DD that is close to Alan, Al, and ZM's in terms of her authority around DD extending to "any time for any reason," with some experimentation with FLR that never quite seems to get much traction and that would never extend to things like my career.
DeleteHi, Dan,
DeleteThat's even more interesting since our very limited DD is very much wrapped up in Art's career! I have a LOT to say about how he behaves at work, whereas it sounds like you would never allow your wife to interfere with your work world.
Just shows how different it can be.
Liz
Hi Liz. My statement was probably a little too broad. My wife has punished me for interactions at work, including as I've recounted making me apologize to someone I did NOT want to apologize to. I don't have any problem with that and, in fact, have sometimes wished she had a relationship with someone at work who could rat me out for arrogant or insensitive behavior. My comment was aimed more at things like career choices -- who I'll work for, what I'll do, how much I need to make, etc. I guess I would characterize it more as work-life choices that would have a meaningful impact on me and/or the family. Those are things we would either decide together or, frankly, I would probably do what I want if we reached an impasse. And, I like to think I approach her career the same way. I've definitely had opinions about things like whether she should go for a certain promotion or leadership role, and I sometimes think she really could have taken things like her math skills in a far more lucrative direction. But, at the end of the day it's not my call. I think that particularly for men, we really define ourselves in terms of work or career, so allowing someone else some kind of veto right on those kind of decisions would almost certainly do more harm than good in my relationship.
DeleteYes, now I remember you recounting the apology story. I would have a hard time making Art do something like that, even with the paddle in hand. I do wish, though, that I had a little birdie at his office who could "sing" to me when his arrogance reared its ugly head. I even have thought about a certain receptionist who I think would keep it on the down-low, but I couldn't do it behind Art's back and I know he would not go for it. He swears he confesses every time he gets the least bit out of line at work, and he wants me to trust that he does, even though he has admitted that he sometimes does not recognize his own arrogance. We'll leave things the way they are for now, but if some major thing happens at work I may talk to him about going to the next step.
DeleteWouldn't it be fun, Dan, if he (or you) got home from work and the wife was standing at the door with paddle in hand, saying, "I got a call from your office today ..."
Just like what happened to the naughty schoolboy when he got home!
Liz
Liz and Dan,
DeleteLike Dan I see an FLR and DD as being separate categories, with some relationships based on one, some relationships the other and still other relationships including both. But an FLR does not necessarily encompass DD, and DD may exist without FLR. I don’t have any quarrel with someone who might want to classify DD as a sub category of FLR but that does imply a more symbiotic relationship than actually exists. Undoubtedly some FLR’s come to include DD and others might be an outgrowth of DD. I think each couple is the best judge of what is going on in their unique relationship. Continuing this just a bit: every FLR or DD could probably be described somewhere on a continuum mapping a wife’s scope of authority and power within the relationship. So Liz and Art might be said to have a “limited DD”, and others such as al a “Full DD” (the nomenclature is just to illustrate the point). Same with an FLR. Having said all this however, Liz still raised an important issue about DD becoming an FLR, quoting her: “the female-controlled DD sounds a lot like FLR. If she can spank you anytime for any reason, then can't she "motivate" you to do anything she wants whenever she wants it?” My answer to this is there is nothing to stop a woman from moving DD to an FLR if that is what she wants. And very likely it happens with some couples. But for many couples it isn’t what either a wife or husband want or fits well their personalities and relationship while some level of DD is what both want and does fit well.
Liz, yes, that would be a total game changer if someone could rat me out to her and she met me at the door with the paddle.
DeleteThe thing about that apology was, it was 10 times more effective than the worst spanking she could have given. And, not because I'm not inclined to apologize when I do something wrong. It was more because my history with this guy was such that I assumed a level of bad intent on his part that was wholly consistent with how most people see him. He's just sort of known in our professional community as an extremely difficult guy. But, this one time, I was wrong and misjudged what he was saying. What made the apology so hard was that it was to someone I genuinely did not like and whose reputation for arrogance is way worse than my own!
Some of these distinctions get down to angles dancing on the heads of pins, but I don't really draw a distinction between "full DD" and some lesser version of it. I think if spankings (or other punishments) are being given to address real behavior issues, then it's a DD relationship. I think the more discretion the wife has to punish whatever she wants, the more FLR has been injected on top of the DD. And, certainly, the more she makes decisions that have nothing to do with behavior or consequences, it takes on more of an FLR character. Just my two cents, and I don't think anything important hangs on the distinction.
DeleteHi Dan,
DeleteYour distinctions are identical to mine. Real punishments for real infractions is definitely DD. And if her decision making authority (as opposed to equal partners jointly making decisions) sounds a lot like FLR. And of course there are countless shades of gray in between.
-ZM
Hi Dan, I agree fully with your statement: “To me FLR is kind of a separate dynamic that may or may not be part of the DD dynamic, and it's distinguishing characteristic is the amount of decision making authority.”
DeleteI have some dear friends of many years, and they clearly have an FLR, though I sincerely doubt that it has ever involved DD (or at least I have no reason to believe it does, and I am hyper-sensitive to any clues about this).
She makes most all the decisions on where they live, what house to buy, etc. At the same time, they are very traditional in other things, such as parenting and division of household tasks. She doesn’t normally mow the lawn and he seldom cooks dinner. But he is very helpful around the house and if she says “jump,” he says “how high?” He has him wrapped around her finger, but probably she has never had him over her lap.
All this is to say FLR can certainly exist without DD. They are two different things. But I also expect that frequently couples who are serious about female-led DD find that they drift more towards FLR over time, and couples who are FLR might naturally drift towards utilizing DD to further reinforce the power structure that already exists in the relationship.
So DD and FLR are two separate things, but they are also very, very symbiotic.
-ZM
ZM,
DeleteYour comment was, "But I also expect that frequently couples who are serious about female-led DD find that they drift more towards FLR over time, and couples who are FLR might naturally drift towards utilizing DD to further reinforce the power structure that already exists in the relationship."
I completely agree. My husband never talked about a FLR style of marriage in the beginning. DD was mostly kink that evolved over time. I know he learned about FLRs on the internet. When he started bringing it up I never thought he was truly serious. I guess looking back we might have had the mildest form of a FLR because he usually did what I asked and he took on chores from the beginning. Now, like your friends, when I say "jump" my husband does. DD and FLRs are separate but blend together.
By the way, I visited my sister for a few days because my husband was away. She's not thrilled about me letting my husband go on outings with his friends, and she wondered out loud if he should have gone at this particular time. I told her, without revealing any personal facts, that "I don't worry about my husband because he's pretty responsible and isn't going to take chances. I'm the boss too, and he absolutely knows what he cannot do." She smiled and said, "Well if you can trust him that's good." She didn't bring the issue up again.
CarolH.
Hi, still checking out, reading, just wanted to say HI Jack
ReplyDeleteThis will sound frivolous but consent is 1000% clear when the spanked are the requester and the spanker is restrained/reluctant. Thus it follows that if the spanker ups their game, actually becomes fully engaged and then starts to take the act into new directions the consent is still relevant till the spanked says stopped. Cheers GLM.
ReplyDeleteThat makes a lot of sense.
DeleteRegarding the main topic of consent, I don’t think there is much I can add that I haven’t already said before. While truly non-consensual sounds in some ways (like school paddings were), who knows how I would react since I generally bristle against authority?
ReplyDeleteThe way we have it (consensual non-consent) seems like the best possible balance for right now at least.
-ZM
Say. What is this whole blog post about anyway? I never got past the photo of the two girls in the bar at the beginning.
ReplyDeleteI think you meant to post this on the next week's topic. But, yeah, I kind of had to reach to find a logical connection between that picture and anything in the blog entry, but I just really wanted to post it!
DeleteYeah Baby!
DeleteConsensual non-consent is an oxymoron. It wants to have the implied moral purity of a consensual relationship with the intoxication of a power that cannot be opposed.
ReplyDeleteAlso disagree with another poster -- size and strength are auxiliary; it's energy that determines dominance.