Saturday, August 11, 2018

The Club - Meeting 262 - Undeserved Punishment


We need to understand the difference between discipline and punishment. Punishment is what you do to someone; discipline is what you do for someone. - Zig Ziglar

Hello all.  Welcome back to the Disciplinary Couple's Club.  Our weekly gathering of men and women in, or who would like to be in, Domestic Discipline or Female Led relationships.  I hope you all had a good week.  Mine was another in which my bad behavior left me in a tired and cranky state.  My wife had set a punishment for Thursday, and I knew I deserved one.

Fortunately for my ass but unfortunately for my long-term emotional health and balance, one of our kids stayed home unexpectedly.

    

As I've said, I am learning that "empty-nesting" is more a process than an event. Perhaps at some point in the future, the presence of others will not result in a well-deserved spanking being deferred, let alone forgone, but that's not where we are right now with respect to being "out."
So, I may have once again gotten out of a well-deserved punishment.  But, let's take this week's topic in the opposite direction.  We've talked about "undeserved" punishment before, but it's been a couple of years, and it came up in a comment from KD yesterday.  (I'm feeling lazy and have some other things going on today, so the content below is pretty close to a verbatim ripoff of our last discussion of this topic.  It's not plagiarism if I'm copying myself, right?) 

Have you ever been given a disciplinary spanking for something you felt you didn't deserve?  Perhaps "caught" doing something you really didn't do? Or someone else was the real offender? Or, maybe you did something that wasn't contrary to any clearly set rule, but it was something that annoyed or aggravated your HoH, so they disciplined you for it unexpectedly?  In those circumstances, how did you react?  How did it make you feel?  Humbled?  Resentful?  Respectful?

I can't think of a circumstance where I have been punished for something I really didn't do or something that I didn't know was a problem for her.  The closest I can think of is a situation where I repeatedly left a chore undone, or done half-assed, and she finally had enough, ordered a spanking, and delivered a very, very hard one that evening.  It was not that it was "undeserved" per se, but this chore was not so much something assigned to me under some express rule, but something I have just always done.  Moreover, giving  a very hard spanking for not doing a chore was not a direction either of us had taken things in up until that point.  So, perhaps the right word is "unexpected" as opposed to "undeserved."  There was also one time when I expected a fairly light "maintenance" session, but what I got was a full-blown punishment spanking.  In both cases, there was perhaps some resentment as I pulled by pants up over my very sore bottom that night, but there was also an offsetting respect.  Admiration is another good word to describe it.  I felt proud of her for addressing a situation that was pissing her off, and doing it strongly and decisively.  That reaction was one indication I had that we might have approached a fork in the road, going from something purely DD to something more FLR-oriented, with her setting the tone and direction and taking action where she thought appropriate, not just to address a violation of some rule we had expressly agreed to.

It speaks very well of my wife that in well over a decade in this lifestyle, I really can't think of an instance in which she was really "wrong" to spank me.  If anything, perhaps it indicates she is letting me get away with too much too often! 

I don't disagree with anything KD observed about the potential for "tops" in a power exchange relationship to abuse their authority.  I definitely don't think these power sharing relationships are without risk, particularly if the "Top" isn't a well balanced and well meaning person. And, no one has an obligation to submit to such a person. Though, in that situation, you have to ask why you are in any relationship with such a person, let alone a DD relationship.  The bottomline for me is these relationships, like any other, require common sense, and the "right" approach is seldom binary. If a Top makes a mistake now and then or there is a disagreement about whether discipline was earned, that is probably to be expected every once in a while. Each "bottom" has to figure out whether to submit in those circumstances, recognizing that (a) the top may be wrong, but it's also possible the bottom is the party in the wrong and just doesn't have that perspective in the moment; and (b) refusing to submit may undermine her confidence and the relationship as a whole. So, while the top has a responsibility to think hard about when and when not to discipline, the same applies to the "bottom" regarding whether to refuse to comply.  KD's perspective follows from a very bad experience, and I totally understand why he is concerned about the possibility of a Top acting abusively.  I, on the other hand, can truthfully say that on the rare occasions that my wife and I have had a really serious fight, at the time I was 100% sure I was right, but often a few days later I would start to see things from her perspective and realize that I had been a dick.  In those cases, I could have done real damage to our overall DD relationship had I refused an "undeserved" spanking.
It also would be more than a little disingenuous for me to get too upset about being punished for something I didn't deserve given that, as this week illustrates, on balance I have engaged in way more bad behavior that has gone unpunished that I should not have gotten away with.  So, being punished where not strictly deserved could be looked at as just a balancing of the accounts.

I hope you all have a great weekend.

61 comments:

  1. Much like you, I can't really say she has ever spanked me for punishment when I felt I did not deserve it. I have felt at times, the punishment was more harsh that I felt was necessary. She doesn't like to punish, but has no problem in delivering punishment when she feels it is needed. You mentioned briefly, refusing an undeserved punishment. I cannot refuse here. Even if I disagree with her decision to punish, I must submit and accept the punishment. Like I said at the start, I can't say I have ever been spanked without just cause. In fact, I am sure I have gotten away without one a few times. Shhhhhh!!

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  2. 99.9% of the time, I’ve deserved every swat I got. A couple years ago Dev “ thought “ I said something did not. It was a huge fight. After several days of tension I figured it was easier to give in than to continue the hostility. That was our first trip out to the “ woodshed “. The spanking given was very long and hard with her spenser paddle. I was sore and bruised for several days but st least things were good again. A week later my daughter was home and confirmed I didn’t say anything offensive. Now she was remorseful and gave me a free pass on a future one. ( I don’t remember if I ever got to use it ?) JR

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    1. Yeah, you probably should have gotten that pass in writing!

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  3. I suppose if one's wife is rational a reasonably high proportion of the time, there won't be too many completely undeserved punishments. Some degree of rationality on both sides is required for a relationship like this to work out. If there is no correlation between things that I have done wrong and spankings, the disciplinary aspect of the spanking just is not working.

    Sometimes, I have thought I was undeserving of a spanking or it was too harsh a decision, but in time come to the viewpoint that I was too haughty to see that I deserved it at the time. Occasionally, I maintained my view, but I didn't think of it as worthy of pondering. I have to be a man, take the pain and move on.

    Anyway, we are a believing couple and we both know that we are full of sin and that if I receive more than we believe I deserve in spankings, there are plenty of things in so many areas of my life that make me filthy with sin that I could never be properly punished for, as it would only be scratching the surface. I should therefore never feel hard-done-by.

    Maybe I would prevail if I argued things right until the bitter end, but there would be no ultimate value in this. It would be a situation where the sun goes down on our anger and it would just fester. It would also destroy our intimacy (currently top notch): - our implicit agreement for the administration of spanking is no intimacy before the issue is fully dealt with by spanking, but when it has been fully dealt with, that is the end of the matter.

    Our children aren't old enough to notice things like this yet, but my wife and I are of the opinion that it might be good to be open about this at some point in the future, so as to normalise things. We just don't know how to do that though! We want sons to accept this as normal in advance of their wedding nights and daughters to know they can legitimately expect their future husbands to go along with this.

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    1. I totally agree that if there is no correlation between the behavior and the punishment, then whatever is going on really isn't discipline.

      I am on the fence about being open about DD within the family. We were not, and that definitely meant I got away with a lot, and it impeded her growth as a disciplinarian. For couples who do want to be more open, my advice would be to do it early. That way, it's just part of the background they grow up with.

      We had a commenter named Holly, who I really miss and wish would come back. She was one of the few women who instigated the disciplinary relationship and imposed it on her husband, and it was because she saw the example at home. As she put it in one of her comments: "There wasn’t any time I wasn’t aware of domestic discipline. Mom spanked our dad. Never in front of us, but when she took him into the bedroom there was no doubt what was going on and anyone in the house could hear it. I didn’t think much of it except that mom was definitely in charge which everyone knew anyway."

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  4. Since I've already made my feelings known on "undeserved" punishment/scolding/or treatment of any kind, let me address another point being made about offsetting "penalties", or accepting an unfair spanking as compensation for a different offense. If a person can justify this in their head then I think it's fine. However, that is not how this lifestyle works for me. Since Rosa and I are also a little bit BDSM along with our 'DD", there can be any number of reasons that I might end up over a lap for any length or severity of spanking, and what enables me to do that is a clear understanding and acceptance of 'why'. And the "why" can be very varied. Therefore, if Rosa wants to 'play' and lets me know with a wink that whatever is up is clearly contrived and therefore 'playful', I'm good to go.....no matter how rough it might get. If Ana wants to do a slip as a holiday treat with some crazy number because she thinks it's funny, I'm good to go. If I do something wrong and am sentenced to a serious punishment, I'm good to go. The caveat is that I have to be CLEAR on the reason.

    If Rosa decided to seriously punish me for something I did not do, that I insisted I did not do, and based solely on her own gut feeling, then I am sooooooo NOT good to go! I don't care if it's 10 whacks with a noodle. In my head this is not right and I will not be a victim of it. Period.

    If she said one day, "hey do you think you've gotten away with some stuff that I should have punished you for?" and I said, "probably" and she decided to settle those scores, then again I'm clear on why and resolved to the fairness of it. But for me each spanking is a thing unto itself. Each has its own rationale. And for me, each of those rationales must make sense in some way. There is no 'well this is unfair, but to rationalize it, I'll assume it's for something else' excuse for me.

    If I entrust her to discipline, it has to be fair. And if I resist one for something.....(as has happened) and it comes out that I was wrong and I come to see it, I'm OK with a sterner punishment as a result. But NOT before my head is clear. I am the one going over the lap. I am the one who has to be OK with that. There is no "you have to accept it because I say so". There is only "you should accept it because you know you deserve it."

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    1. KD, what in tarnation does this mean: "If Ana wants to do a slip as a holiday treat with some crazy number..." Huh? And for those of us new here, do you live with two women who both spank you?

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    2. Helen: No, only Rosa spanks, but about three other people, of whom Ana is one, are able to recommend punishments......both serious and playful.....via discipline slips submitted to Rosa. If she approves, which she usually does, she delivers the suggested punishment.

      ( I have many posts here and a blog of my own linked to my name and avatar. If anyone wants more detail on the specifics of my dynamic, it's all there ....and here. It's really too complicated to do in a single post response.)

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    3. KD, I totally understand your thinking on this and your feeling that each spanking has to be justified not in her mind, but in yours. That's not where I personally come out on it, but you and I have a lot of fun identifying where we agree and where we don't and why. I wonder if it boils down to different needs around "control." (BTW, I don't want to put words in your mouth or engage in the kind of remote-control psychoanalysis I get so mad about when directed at me, so I offer all this as a hypothesis, not a statement of fact about what goes no in your inner life). It seems very important to you to always reserve ultimate control over anything you are subjected to, and it seems to be the control that is important not the ultimate fairness, as illustrated by the fact that Ana can give you some "crazy number" that does not reflect the actual offense and that's OK. It's OK because in that situation there is a certain "game"-like quality to it and you've set the rules, i.e. retained the control.

      My motivation is almost the opposite. I grew up with too much control and too few imposed boundaries. Most teenagers don't think being punished for missing a curfew is "fair," but there was a rule, they knew it, they broke it, they got punished. I experienced very little of that. The overall result is that for most of my life, I've had plenty of control but very little "tough love." And, I need it. Therefore, I'm comfortable with a situation in which she takes action to keep me within the fence lines, even if I don't actively agree with it at the time.

      Now, I'm not saying that you and I are polar opposites on this or even totally consistent. Human behavior and desires just aren't that binary. You've given Anna permission to dictate a spanking, and you don't seem all that concerned about whether she uses it wisely or "fairly." I wonder whether the difference is that in that case, there isn't really a major power shift or anything really ego threatening, because there is a game-like quality to it. I have given my wife authority over determining when and how to discipline, and within that framework I'm OK if every once in a while she exercises that authority in a way I don't agree with. But, if it became chronic or abusive, I would put an end to it. In the end, I think we're both looking at the big picture and deciding whether in the big picture we are OK with the arrangements we've made, though you draw a tighster line on controlling individual punishments than I do in instances where the punishment represents a real exercise of power over you.

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    4. You made several points and all are valid to a degree, but I'm not sure if it's the entire picture. I am not offended by your analysis and think you are correct about me and control. I come from a background of never feeling in control and have decided I no longer want to feel that way, or at least not when I don't have to.

      The example of Ana is valid and also an argument for something else. True I don't mind her fun ones so much because ....well they're fun.....and also because they usually are at least a little collaborative......though sometimes they are total surprises. But the difference is that no matter how extreme her serious ones have gotten, they have always had a rationale behind them I could appreciate. AND since they are done via slip, IF I truly objected to something being out of line, I would just say so to Rosa, and I think in a case like that she would overrule the slip. It hasn't happened, but that's just because Ana and I discuss a lot before a slip is issued.

      And I guess that's why I've always snickered a bit about "prior consent". Even at the times I'm a bit taken aback by a punishment, if it makes sense in some way, I 'consent' to it and 'feel' as though it's because I agreed beforehand........but it's really because I agree each individual time, and can arrive at agreement even when I don't like the conclusion I come up with if the fault is on my end.

      Now once I'm "in", the rest is up to Rosa. I have never complained that a punishment was too hard, or lasted too long, or required too many installments. In that arena, she is in total control. But........I have to be on board, which I am most of the time.

      (Thanks for the mention of control. It got me thinking in a direction I don't usually venture.)

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    5. I do agree that on a very literal level, consent happens on a spanking-by-spanking basis, but that would seem to be true in every situation that doesn't involve having physical resistance overcome. It does illustrate what I think is a fundamental difference between our respective needs. It seems like it is very important to you to insist that for each spanking, your autonomy is preserved. I, on the other hand, want (at least in theory) something that is imposed, i.e. where it is going to happen whether I agree or don't agree. Now, I know deep inside that I could physically resist if I wanted to. The difference between us is you see that as a positive, while I see it as a problem.

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    6. Hmmmmm, maybe you could get your wife a bottle of Rohypnol and maybe one misbehaving day, after a nice drink, you'll wake up getting what you want? LOL ;-)

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    7. Now, there's an idea. :-)

      Less radically, we've tried restraints, but of course that too requires a certain amount of cooperation.

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    8. Not if you wake up in them. ;-)

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    9. This is Helen's Andy. We are here together. She has asked me to write about this issue of consent. Obviously I have consented to (and crave) a disciplinary wife relationship. Within that, I do not consciously consent to each spanking. When she says, "Get over my knee," I feel that I have no choice: I HAVE to do it because I have consented to her being my disciplinary wife. I guess in some sense I do consent each time; I do bend over her knee when I could refuse to. But the consent each time certainly is not conscious on my part.

      I think the lecturing and scolding and Q&A that Helen always engages in really helps with this. I never wonder why I am being punished because in the Q&A she makes me say why! "Did you do the dishes last night?" "No, dear." "Are you supposed to have the dishes done before I come downstairs in the morning?" "Yes, dear." "And what is supposed to happen when the dishes aren't done on time?" "I get spanked." "Pull down your panties and get over my knee."

      One thing that really helps us is that Helen's spankings are for concrete, identifiable, specific behaviors which we have already agreed are spankable offenses. Thus there really is no issue of thinking the punishment is undeserved. Even when I am punished for a "bad attitude," Helen is very careful to delineate what that means: my tone of voice, rolling my eyes, snorting and huffing, complaining--really specific behaviors that make up a bad attitude. Thus there really is nothing to argue about; I just need to take what I have earned!

      I am not saying there are never situations where I feel some disagreement, and I wrote about one before. But to me it is much more important to respect her authority and submit to her hairbrush than to argue about whether I rolled my eyes or just started to do so and caught myself before I really did so.

      Finally, I think Helen is very careful to not overreach her authority. I KNOW she loves me and she is helping me be a better man even while her hairbrush is descending on my very sorry behind.
      Andy

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    10. Hi Helen's Andy. Your first paragraph is similar to my own assessment of the state of my consent. While it is technically true that I consent each time (at least if one defines "consent" as mere lack of physical resistance), if you asked me to identify in common sense terms what it is I have consented to, it is the overall DD relationship, which includes consenting to her discretion to set the where, when, how and why. That doesn't mean I couldn't revoke that consent if she abused that authority, though I have no reason to think she ever would and much reason to think she wouldn't. So, I think of it not as independent acts of consent but, rather, as a blanket consent given several years ago that is subject to revocation in extreme circumstances that are unlikely to arise.

      It's a good point that by making you an active participant in each spanking, the chance of one being "undeserved" is diminished. Regarding bad attitude, I don't really need my wife to delineate the particular behaviors that are symptoms of that attitude, as I know damn good and well that I did it. But, I get your point that such delineation also reduces the prospect for any confusion or unfairness.

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  5. I find it interesting that lately you boys have had sort of an obsession with undeserved punishment, even though you all say that it virtually never happens. But I guess that is the fear of those on your side of the paddle.

    For disciplinary wives, one of our key concerns is that we know our husbands always have the option to use their physical strength to refuse punishment. That is sort of always in the back of our heads. And we need that to not happen for the disciplinary relationship to continue.

    Another key point for me is that a disciplinary wife relationship is consensual between the wife and the husband, so different from parent- child discipline. My husband has the option to stop the disciplinary relationship at any time, and I would accept that. It might make for some difficult negotiations going forward, but that is his right.

    Fortunately, he doesn't want that and neither do I. We feel our disciplinary relationship is based on trust and communication, and when those are both present it is much less likely that I would administer a punishment which he believes is undeserved.

    In addition, I agree with what Dan has said several times, that sometimes the miscreant might think a punishment is undeserved but later realize that it was not.

    Anyway, I hope that next week we can move forward from this issue, which seems rather minor in terms of actual occurrence.

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    1. Helen: It's not uncommon for me to take a comment from one week and transform it into a topic for the next week. I don't plan to change that, and I don't see evidence of any obsession on this issue, given that pretty much everyone but KD has said they don't see it as a significant problem. (I also deleted one comment that seemed very suspiciously similar to past ones from a troll who is not allowed to post here.)

      I'm sure that for disciplinary wives the husband's ability to physically resist can be a major confidence killer, and it is, in fact, one reason that I do think it is better to err on the side of compliance unless something is truly chronic or facially abusive.

      I also agree that there are differences between parent-child and adult discipline and that one of the differences is around consent. Of course, one of the ironies of DD is that many men gravitate toward wanting DD to be imposed on them strongly and decisively, more like that parental situation. Though, there is obviously the question of what they would do if fantasy became reality.

      It's a good point that communication is key and would make a truly "undeserved
      punishment less likely. And, I feel very strongly that if someone does not trust their spouse, then they absolutely should not be in a DD or other power exchange relationship.

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    2. Hi Dan, I will write on the topic when I have more time, but did want to say that I read that comment and immediatly thought it was Gravano, or whatever his name was because of that snide little "someone who says they love you" that he put in there. Yes my wife spanks hard, but I trust her completely because I know she loves me. If I didn't know she loves me and if I didn't trust her, I wouldn't be married to her and certainly wouldn't have a DD relationship!!! I don't know what it is about that guy, but he needs to get help; since he is obviously very obsessed with what he so clearly seems to hate, he must hate himself for being so interested in it.

      -ZM

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    3. Hi ZM. Yes, I had the same reaction to the tone and content and, by virtue of those two, the likely author.

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  6. KD, when I was spanked as a child, I knew it was deserved most of the time, but there were times when I thought it was "unfair," as you put it, and I was spanked anyway.

    I understand this could have been abusive, but, in my case, it was not. I loved my parents, they loved me, I knew it, and I knew that they always wanted what was best for me.

    For me, there is something good, something healthy, when a husband can trust his wife's judgment even when he does not, prior to being spanked, understand the reason for the spanking.

    Doug

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    1. I do think there's a significant distinction between punishment with actual unfairness and perceived unfairness. And as a child one can't escape either.....but as an adult you can avoid the one. So I'm not sure which type you mean by the ones you thought were unfair?

      As for it being abusive? Well that depends. Authority figures can make mistakes, and they can also be abusive. There's a difference.

      The issue really is one of power being a corruptor. I'm sure an authority figure who is usually right and who has the power to enforce their beliefs can easily slide down a path where what they think is the right action is not.

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  7. Dan
    When Anna & I began with DD, it was in a way a last ditch effort to get me to see how my behavior was endangering our family and our marriage. Without going into details let say that after the boys were born I began behaving like i was a single man. With the exception of cheating sexually there was little I didnt do
    to show what a brat I had become. In passing one day my mother in law said to Anna " He needs to be taken over your knee and get some sense walloped into him.

    Long story short we discussed DD. We sat down and worked out ten rules I agreed to live by. Some were easy
    like calling when I would be late for dinner. Others like taking the boys to soccer twice a week or not stopping dinner to take a business call.

    Our boys spent friday nights at my in laws so we determined punishment nite would be Friday . There would be no arguments about why. She would list the rules I had broken and accept the punishment. In addition I would stand naked in the corner for about an hour as she drove the boys to her folks. When she came back I would then be spanked with belt or brush only. After the spanking I would have to remain naked and kneel before her as she lectured me about each thing I had done wrong. Then we would go out to dinner and no sex that nite.

    The frist time we did it I got an erection. She stopped the spanking insisted i jerk off and then return to being
    spanked.My behavior improved over time. At the end of 60 days re agreed it was working and funnily enough we both found our communication improved. She didnt nag and well it began to work. Some weeks it is a short session other weeks not at all.

    IS IT PERFECT NO! Do we keep at it YES! Do I ever feel i have been spanked for something I didnt do. It works for us.
    Peter

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    1. There have been times since starting DD that I have thought about whether it would actually be better to stop feeling guilty about "bad" behavior and just embrace it without guilt as either something that just feels good and is liberating and positive in some sense, or in some cases helps with career aspirations, friendships and camaraderie, etc. But, every time I have even started to explore that thought path, I have had something happen that points out to me that no matter how good the hedonistic approach may seem in theory, for me it just doesn't work. It has too many bad consequences that vastly outweigh the positives.

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  8. I want to address another point that keeps coming up about when things go wrong, and that is the reaction of "then why be in the relationship?" ....... as if we dive headlong into incompatible disasters of abuse with our eyes closed.

    Before I address that notion directly, let me attack it indirectly. Is anyone here divorced? Or if not divorced, has anyone been in a long term relationship that ended? If the answer is "no" then never mind.....just skip this section and go to the next paragraph. LOL But if your answer was 'yes' then you'd know that no one in their right mind gets into a serious relationship or marries if they hate and don't trust the other person. But how many folks are equally enamored of their 'ex-es'? The difference is that something changed. Something went wrong. And pretty often it doesn't happen overnight.

    In my case, I trusted my ex. We were together as a couple for 7 years before we even married! We didn't rush into things. We knew each other. We trusted each other and loved each other. And things were damned good for years after that. But then things started to get weird. She changed. Fewer things I did made her happy, until eventually nothing made her happy. And all through that, because I usually deferred to her and trusted her and because she USED to be right or at least have the best of intentions, I assumed .......as a good little sub......that it must be me. I went deeper into a tunnel of despair and self-doubt, fueled by her assertions that it was all me.

    It was only during couples therapy that I realized the simple fact that all of her complaints were phony and the real issue was the one thing she didn't want to say aloud: she just didn't love me anymore. My mere existence annoyed her. It wasn't that I was really the "moron" she referred to me as. I was fine....as evidenced by my ability to do very well on my own after the divorce. But the process of realizing it wasn't me took a long painful time. I never envisioned leaving my relationship, or the house I built, so I tried to save the damned thing. It was futile and she was cruel.

    So when it comes to 'why be in such a relationship?', yeah, it's a good question, but sometimes it takes a long time to answer it CORRECTLY based on one's feelings and what came before.

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    1. Very good points. People can and do change, as do their feelings for each other. Maybe it's a good thing that people seem to come to these relationships later in life, once we've stabilized a bit and our partner has done the same. It's not like we don't still change or that power may not corrupt after a certain age, but I do feel like we have reached a point where our changes are much more incremental.

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  9. My wife has three reasons for punishing me - physically or otherwise, they are 1. because I have done something wrong or not to her standard, 2. maintenance to keep me in line or 3. because she wants to. I don't think I've ever been punished for something I didn't do and know for sure I haven't been punished for things I did do. I am fully submissive to her so accept whatever comes gratefully - in return I have her care and love without bounds.

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  10. Dan et al

    So in a year how many refusals are acceptable ? It seems to me that the point of DD is to correct problems in the relationship. I am assuming a couple has sat down and drawn up a set of rules. Once the rules are agreed upon there should be no problem. In truth only each couple can determine the set of rules that apply to their
    marriage.
    Anna

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    1. Hi Anna. Well, to answer a question with a question, how many "undeserved" spankings are acceptable? Your question and mine are two sides of the same coin. And, while many couples do draw up rules, not all do, nor do all wives consider themselves bound to punish only that conduct that is covered by a rule that has been agreed upon in advance. I do agree that, in the end, each couple has to figure out what works for them.

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    2. 3.14.

      Seriously though, maybe the answer is how valid are the refusals?

      Are they invalid whining excuses just to get out of a deserved punishment? Then 0.

      Do they have a point, but need further communication to clarify the Top's real issue over the sub's objection? Then maybe just a waiting period is called for, with punishment to follow once everyone is clear about what happened. So 0, but with a pause.

      Is the objection completely legitimate? e.g. wife comes home late to find dishes in the sink, informs husband that he is in trouble. Husband insists the dishes were done and the sink empty when he left to go to a store. It is discovered that Junior had a messy after-dinner snack and left the dishes after dad went out. Then 1. (especially if even after the explanation, the wife still insists on a punishment because the rule says: no dishes left in the sink.)

      Or perhaps the formula is: Fair punishments + unfair ones - just enough refusals to keep either partner from ending the relationship ?

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  11. I tend to agree with Anna with a caveat or two. Excepting safety/health issues there should not be a refusal to accept punishment in an adult consensual relationship. Otherwise her authority becomes a game and DD ends (whether she ends it formally or not). But also there should be a “breaking in" period where both partners learn what works and what doesn't). A year seems about right for that, at least that's about what it took for me with the former girlfriend who introduced me to DD. But after that learning period, she must be obeyed even if you think the punishment is unfair, hopefully with the option to talk it out afterward if necessary. The vast majority of the time I have thought an impending spanking was unfair, I changed my mind during or after it was administered. Thinking it was unfair was just a rationalization to avoid an unpleasant experience with her brush or strap. Nothing clarifies your thinking like getting spanked and knowing it’s over
    Alan

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    1. My view is kind of "do what I say, not what I do" . . . but in reverse. I have never refused a spanking, and for me personally I agree that I probably wouldn't do so absent a safety or health issue. On the other hand, my wife has always shown good judgment, so unlike KD I have not had to contend with someone who changed over time and who did not exercise good judgment and was not looking out for the "bottom" spouse's interests. I always see these relationships as a two-way street. The leader has not just authority, but also responsibility, and part of that responsibility is to exercise good judgment and make sure they have the facts straight. If they fail to do so, I can understand the "bottom" saying the "Top" is not living up to their responsibilities or upholding their part of the bargain that is inherent in the power exchange.

      Now, all that said, as I admitted above, my wife and I do not fight very often, but on those occasions when we have, I often began thinking I was 100% right and she was 100% wrong. That was seldom my view a few days later.

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    2. Alan: How did you feel about JR's post towards the beginning of this thread?

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    3. KD:
      With respect to what?

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    4. In general. What did you think? JR talks about an unfair punishment and how it eventually was resolved. So, in reading it, what did you think? It does not fall under your caveats for acceptable refusal......but s refusal acceptable under the circumstances described?

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    5. He was wrong to fight her but he finally accepted her authority and apparently received a severe spanking for his disobedience as well as the alleged original offense. The fact that his wife punished him in error and her remorse after is not material. Wives and girlfriends will make mistakes as we all do. He still had a duty to obey her when she ordered a spanking although it's fine for him to respectfully plead his case, but after it's clear she isn't buying it, he should accept that decision. The only thing that would alter that is if there was a consistent pastern of spankings administered for behavior that in fact had not occurred. Such a couple would have a big communication problem to work on and trust would become a huge issue for them.
      Alan

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    6. Doug & Alan: Thank you for your replies. As you might guess, I do not agree. In fact, when I read JR's account it bothered me viscerally. If such a thing happened here (and it almost did several years ago) it would be beyond a DD deal-breaker. I am a responsible adult.....with flaws. She is as well. The only difference is the dynamic of our DD lifestyle choice. But if something is called out and I say seriously and vehemently that I did not do what I am being accused of, to me that's sufficient for Rosa to drop it. For her to say, "well I don't care what you say, I still think you're guilty" goes beyond DD. It is my wife calling me a liar to my face. If that is her trust level of me saying seriously that she is in error, then we have way bigger problems than some ridiculous spanking.

      It is unfortunate that the issue of being (or not being) believed does not seem to be an issue for people. It is a huge issue for me. I wonder.....are the guys here so usually guilty of lying to get out of trouble that they can't blame their spouses for not believing them?

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    7. I think my wife would say that I pretty commonly "underestimate" the number of drinks I have at a given happy hour. Actually, she would just say that I lie. Which is probably true, though it's sort of like how when asked how many men they've slept with, women generally round down. We both know the game, and I would never contest her ordering a spanking on the basis of a dispute over whether I had two versus three.

      But, more seriously, where we DO have a disagreement is she thinks the limit should be two and I think it should be three. Even though I genuinely believe the limit should be three, if she says it is two, then I know that I have assumed the risk by having that third beer.

      In some ways, the scenario KD raises in relation to JR's story is the most problematic. The wife just doesn't have her facts straight but spanks anyway. JR doesn't see it as a major problem. KD does. Personally, for me it would depend on whether it was a one-time issue or something more chronic. The second problem would be what I just described -- she thinks something should be a rule and he doesn't. I think the way you come out on that one really depends on where your relationship is on the DD to FLR spectrum and the extent to which you see consent as being to the details of the relationship, versus consent only as to who is in charge of making those rules. Interestingly, no one seems to see a disagreement as to severity alone as being a big problem.

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    8. KD:
      It is not an issue of not being believed; it is an issue of respecting her authority and obeying her when she exercises it even if you "know" she is wrong.It is also allowing her to make a mistake that you both can learn from.There are lots of issues that come up in DD that are not black and white and her judgement on those trumps yours. I don't see how you can have a DD relationship if you give her authority to discipline except when you think she is wrong.
      Alan

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    9. Alan: how can you trust and respect someone who is not only wrong but refuses to believe her own husband when he insists on his innocence?

      It's obviously not an issue for you, as you state......but it certainly is for me. And being a Top does not trump the truth. The truth is the truth. It's like the Church forcing Galileo to refute the hard facts of science because they are in authority. The same is true of judgement. No one's judgement trumps mine. Their authority might. But if they use their position to overrule the truth, they will lose my respect, and if they lose my respect, I will not be able to consent to their authority in the future. Very simple.

      And I am OK with Rosa having authority. One of our rules is that she can spank for no reason if she wants to. BUT.......MY caveat is that she makes that clear at the outset. Getting spanked because she wants to flex some muscle to e is a valid reason.....and it's honest. No problem. I think that's why even Ana has never lied to get me in trouble. 1: she doesn't need to, and 2: if she did I would seriously consider withdrawing my consent to her junior authority.

      And while you can't see how this set of standards can still be compatible with a DD relationship, I can't see how NOT having such standards can sustain any kind of relationship. I'm agreeing to submission to improve behavior.....not because I want someone else telling me what's up and down. I know what's up and what's down on my own.

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  12. Helen
    Thanks for the complement. My wife considers that " a work in progress"
    Alan

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  13. Hi Dan,
    My mind immediately went to what constitutes “undeserved?” Fairness is a normal expectation in our interactions with others; even young children very quickly learn the words “that's not fair!” However, while we all seem hard-wired to want and expect fairness, most real-life situations are not completely black and white and fairness generally depends on perspective. In the same way, in DD it is not totally cut and dried what constitutes “deserved.”

    There are several variables that could cause disagreement over whether a punishment is deserved. First off, is the rule fair? Maybe I agreed to the rule but wasn't really onboard or it may be some new rule that she recently added. If I don't really agree with the rule, or if she arbitrarily added it, then even if I violate it I may not really feel like punishment is merited.

    Assuming there is an established rule, then there is the question of whether there was really an infraction. KD provided a perfect example of this with his dishes example. A sink full of dishes doesn't necessarily mean that I didn't do my chores.

    Even if there indeed was an infraction, there are many scenarios in which it may be justified. Rules are meant to be followed, but life is full of changing circumstances, some of which trump any rule.

    And finally, even if there is a rule, we both agree I broke it, and there was no real justification for breaking it, I may not agree that the severity of punishment is deserved. Since we are talking about adults being punished, in most cases punishments for more minor things MUST be a bit unfair in severity, since anything less would not constitute real punishment.

    For play, she can do as much or little as she likes, and for maintenance she may take me just short of the point where all my resistance breaks down, or even very briefly past. However, a REAL punishment doesn't really start until I have reached that point of no resistance. For a minor offense, she would ideally stop shortly after I reach the point of no resistance, for something a bit more serious she may want to go 50 percent past that point, and for something serious, she may go way past that, until everything has been fully “expressed.” In reality, she generally stops much sooner than would probably be ideal, so these percentages are somewhat theoretical. Anyway, since it takes a pretty long and hard spanking to reach my “point of no resistance,” it is very possible that a punishment for something minor could seem to be much more than the infraction deserved.

    And on the other side, thinking bigger picture, it is always a given that even if a particular punishment isn't necessarily deserved, there are countless times that I do deserve punishment yet don't receive it.

    All that is just speaking hypothetically, because so far, I have never received an undeserved punishment, or at least not too undeserved, so I can't completely know how I would deal with a situation I perceive as truly unfair.

    I truly hope that I would submit in any case. I have given her authority and she is the final arbiter. She determines which rules are to be enforced and when, whether an infraction was justifiable, and whether to punish, and if so, how and how much. It would be beyond unfair for me to put her in that position without also trusting her judgment and giving her grace even if I believe she is incorrect. I asked her to be the judge, not to be perfect!

    -ZM

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    1. "However, while we all seem hard-wired to want and expect fairness, most real-life situations are not completely black and white and fairness generally depends on perspective. In the same way, in DD it is not totally cut and dried what constitutes “deserved.”"

      Agreed 100%. And, I do think that because it isn't cut and dried--and moreover, given the sheer number of times that I have begun an argument thinking I was right but ended up seeing the other perspective a few days later--I have always erred on the side of taking whatever she dishes out. But, as I said, I really can't think of any time she has really been "unfair."

      Regarding severity, I envy you in a lot of ways, because many years into this I have never really reached a point where all my resistance breaks down. I just cannot get wholly past that "gut it out" and "take it like a man" stage of internal resistance. And, the harder the swats, the greater than resistance. That's why I'm more and more convinced that the key to taking me to that point is duration, not severity of impact.

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    2. Hi Dan,
      I don't consistently reach that point either, but at least it does happen. I absolutely agree that duration is more important than severity. As you have mentioned before, too much severity too soon is actually counterproductive to the process.

      In the end, I believe the whole thing is much more tied to emotional and psychological factors than the actual physical punishment. Anything that can increase the feelings of guilt, shyness, weakness, shame, embarrassment, and so on is helpful. Furthermore, the whole emotional transformation/trip takes time. While there certainly is no "formula", I think that overall, the keys to breaking down resistance are long, drawn-out scolding (before and interspersed throughout the punishment) and multiple rounds of increasingly severe punishment spaced out over most of an hour or more, with corner time and random humiliations mixed in.

      -ZM

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  14. I am heartened by all of the comments from disciplined husbands who say that they would accept a spanking even when they disagree with it. I know that a disciplinary wife could abuse her Authority, and that KD had such an experience.

    In my marriage, I have been spanking Andy for about three decades now. At an average of one per week, that's 1500 spankings. I checked with Andy about this last night, and we agree that we haven't had one major argument triggered by a discipline session. On the other hand, we have probably solved about 1,500 minor arguments by putting him over my knee.

    I am not naive enough to say that all disciplinary relationships are as wonderful as ours has been, but that's my witness!

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    1. I do believe that introducing DD has, if it has accomplished nothing else, reduced the number of arguments and fights we have. When we were first married, we had some doozies. That just doesn't happen any more. Now, some of that is probably just age and wisdom, though some of our respective wisdom has been learned on our opposite ends of the paddle.

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    2. Hi Helen,
      I think your comment especially illustrates the powerful effect of the "communication" inherent in DD. Communication is the bedrock of any relationship, especially marriage since two people are sharing all the stresses of life. Consequently anything that enhances communication can only help to build a better relationship. For my you and Andy, my wife and I, and presumably a lot of other couples represented here, DD provides an invaluable boost to communication and draws us closer to our partners.

      Thanks for sharing!

      -ZM

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    3. Hi Helen
      Are all Andy's spankings punishment spankings or are some more "maintenance" in nature. When we started I probably did receive one a week or more but now it is one a month or less, largely because I have modified my behavior pretty dramatically. Your style of discipline and especially the "progressive" spankings you employ to change specific behavior would motivate many naughty boys to avoid getting into trouble as often as Andy does or at all. (Guarantee it would motivate me.)I know Andy is a spanko and you (like my wife) derive considerable satisfaction from administering effective discipline. But how does he keep getting into trouble so often with you when you are obviously very skilled in reminding him of the consequences of doing so? Maybe I am just jealous that he is getting that much attention but also genuinely curious why he finds himself over your knee as often as he does. Thanks
      Alan

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    4. That's a great question, and like many disciplinary matters it comes down to the issue of control and power. Andy has long ago agreed that I decide the "what": what chores he will do, for instance. But he never has let go control of the "when." For instance, he has a list of Saturday chores (including all the bathrooms) and I have told him they must be done by noon. When it is 12:30 and he is not finished with the last bathroom, I will go get my hairbrush to "hurry him along." And he will say something like, "Well, it is still morning somewhere!" He is quite the smarty pants, and you know what happens to them!

      Is he teasing me into a spanking? Maybe. He does really believe, though, that he should decide the "when." My brush says different! It is quite amazing how much faster he works with a red behind. He says spankings give him energy (unless we have sex right away.)

      I still spank hard and long enough that he does not enjoy it at all. But it is something he clearly needs. So the above is the kind of dynamic we have evolved to.

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    5. Helen:
      Thanks. I think I get it. "When" really is something I have tried to control although paradoxically it is not what I want
      Alan

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  15. Dan
    Trying to start this as a new thread with a personal story that illustrates my belief that missed opportunities to spank are a lot more common than undeserved spankings.My wife is an experienced disciplinarian who had experienced both sides of the brush but the woman who introduced me to adult spanking was not so experienced. Early on in our relationship she was somewhat " hung up" on the idea of fairness until it sometimes paralyzed her preventing her from administering discipline badly needed. The notion of fairness was very important to her at the same time inhibiting her to do what she knew was needed.( this was early) . I finally told her I thought there was no such thing as an unfair spanking if it was administered from a place of love and caring because all such spankings were expressions of love. It was OK to make a mistake if it was motivated by love and good intentions. As a nun used to tell us, the "undeserved" punishment we got today made up for the many "deserved" punishments we avoided. I don't really believe that today but do believe a good faith spanking motivated by caring and love cannot really be unfair. a mistake maybe, but unfair, no
    Alan

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    1. Hi Alan. While I do think that a spanking motivated by caring still could be unfair from the receiver's perspective, I get your larger point. One reason I too believe that most DD marriages are going to work better if the man errs on the side of submitting is that our wives are often kind of set up for failure. Most of them are naturally caring people who do worry about things like "fairness" and "too hard." Yet, most of us say we want more consistency and harder consequences. Progress on giving us those things could be drastically undermined by one instance of refusal to submit, and for most of us wouldn't the loss of her progress greatly outweigh the momentary pain of one "undeserved" spanking? I know for me that would be the case.

      The other thing that no one has really touched on is, for those of us who are attracted to real power and dominance, there may be something about being spanked when we don't agree with it that is especially compelling. I know that for me, the prospect of being given a spanking that I simply have no say in is both scare and morbidly fascinating. It also has a very strong maternal/parental aspect. We have said that consent is something that distinguishes adult discipline from childhood corporal punishment, but I would by lying to myself if I did not acknowledge that the closer she gets to really imposing her will on me regardless of my agreement or disagreement, the stronger my emotional reaction and desire for my DD relationship to go ever more strongly in that direction.

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    2. Yep. Me too, 100%. I consent to the whole DD relationship, but I want and need the actual punishments to feel non-consensual and imposed. And in reality they are ARE non-consensual; while in theory I could withdraw my consent to the whole DD aspect of our relationship, because DD so perfectly fulfills such a powerful need and craving for me, I absolutely COULDN'T withdraw overall consent. Since it is all or nothing, I have to accept every part of all and be happy knowing that especially at those times that I don't want or feel I deserve a punishment, I am finally getting EXACTLY what I asked for.

      -ZM

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    3. Getting spanked for doing X, when in fact you didn't actually do X, really does require you to set aside a whole different section of your psyche/ego. Rationally it makes no sense at all, and yet, as you note, it can still have a strong appeal ...
      CrimsonKing

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    4. ZM, I think you have the right of it when you say "since it is all or nothing, I have to accept every part of all and be happy."

      Having said that, I am not implying a green light for any kind of abuse. It's about accepting the "she's her own human being" factor. In a healthy DWC relationship you occasionally you get a butt warming and you can't see the reasoning; well that's life. She's not your "employee". She doesn't "report to you." So remain grateful.

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    5. Tomy: If anything, after ZM asked her to take on the role of enhancing his career aspirations, she's kind of his boss and he's her employee, right? For me, that is a pretty emotionally compelling dynamic.

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  16. I just want to thank you for your blog and forum. I won't contribute to the discussion as I am the flip side of the coin, though on my previous blog it never bothered me if a male sub, Tih, whatever set of letters people prefer, commented as I believe most topics can be understood by both sexes- I understand that FML Blogs and forums seem to have far fewer numbers and you don't need us female subs clogging up your little community. It just felt wrong reading along and benefiting without letting you know, your blog/forum discussion are often very beneficial to both.

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    1. Hi Evelyn. Thank you for dropping by, and please DO contribute whenever you feel like it. While I have aimed this blog mainly at folks in a F/m dynamic, I am happy to have those in the opposite dynamic contribute, and some do from time to time. So, welcome!

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