“Power is given only to him who dares to stoop and take it ... one must have the courage to dare.” ― Fyodor Dostoevsky, Crime and Punishment
Hello all. Welcome back to The Disciplinary Couple’s Club. Our (more or less) weekly on-line gathering of men and women who are in, or would like to be in, a Domestic Discipline relationship. I hope you all had a great week.
I know I said I wasn’t going to post this week, but I woke up this morning and felt like engaging a bit on DD stuff, though I can’t say I have any particular topic in mind. Honestly, between the ongoing war in Ukraine and the Kentanji Brown Jackson hearings, I’ve been way too obsessed with the daily news cycle, and this morning I finally succeeded in shutting off CNN and all my news feeds for a while. And, while I don’t want to make light of anything happening in Ukraine right now, I did see this Ukraine-related meme recently that I thought was pretty damn funny:
As I said, I don’t have much of a topic in mind for this week, so I thought I’d give a general update and respond to a couple of reader comments. I talked a few weeks ago about efforts to self-report more diligently. For the most part, I’ve kept it up. Though, as I said in the most recent post, the perhaps inevitable byproduct of reporting more regularly is also trying to talk my way out of it more. I’m trying to get better about that too, but it’s definitely a work in progress.
I accept that trying to get out of deserved spankings is something I need to find a way to stop doing, but it’s also kind of a two-way street. Anne and I have talked a lot about how this kind of relationship works better when the wife really takes up the reins and starts seeing spanking (and other punishments) as a go-to tool to address things that she thinks need to change, and it works less well the more I feel I’m in control of the process. Yet, no matter how much we talk about it, it never quite seems to really take hold. A recent example involved me once again forgetting to lock the door to our house when I left, which she has made clear is a big deal to her. In this particular case, I actually thought I did lock it, but apparently not. While I was out, she sent a text with a picture of the lock and emoji that made it abundantly clear how she felt about it.
Given all our discussions, I thought the next line of our text exchange would be her telling me I was in for a hard spanking, but it didn’t happen. At some point, I keep thinking that something in her mind will click, and she’ll start thinking in the ordinary course that an if she’s mad enough to send an angry emoji then she’s mad enough to take up the paddle and address the situation until I’m in lots of pain and she’s satisfied I've learned a lesson. But, it doesn’t seem to happen.
When we talk about all of this, it’s often in the context of me emphasizing that I really do want her to be strict with me. Though, it occurred to me a few weeks ago that I wasn’t even sure myself about exactly what I mean by “strict.” I actually looked it up in the thesaurus and decided that I may actually be using the wrong word when I describe what it is I think I need. Here are a couple of distinctions I found helpful:
“The adjective strict always has to do with rules. Your strict parents enforced rules and expected you to obey them. Your cousin might be a strict vegetarian who always follows her own rules about what to eat. Strict laws demand to be followed, and a strict follower of the First Amendment supports free speech no matter what. The Latin root of strict is strictus, which means "drawn together, tight, or rigid." A rigid adherence to rules is exactly what makes someone strict.” (from www.vocabulary.com)
“How is the word strict distinct from other similar adjectives? Some common synonyms of strict are rigid, rigorous, and stringent. While all these words mean "extremely severe or stern," strict emphasizes undeviating conformity to rules, standards, or requirements.” (from Merriam-Webster.com)
I guess a “rigid adherence to [her] rules] is part of when I mean when I say I want her to be strict, but it’s only part and probably not the most important part. I think the word that more closely fits what I feel like I need is “stern.” For that word, www.vocabulary.com offers this:
“You know when you've done something really wrong, and the person who gets you in trouble has that unforgiving look on his face? The best word for that look is stern, meaning "strict" or "severe."”
It even expressly references a linguistic relationship between discipline and sternness:
adjective severe and unremitting in making demands
“a stern disciplinarian”
We’ve had some exchanges recently regarding what exactly it is that drives our DD interest and how much of it is particularly focused on spanking, versus some even deeper attachment to female authority. When I think about what makes me tick and what led me to my initial obsession with this lifestyle, I think a lot of it was reflected in stories I read on the Disciplinary Wives Club website in which the wives displayed a mix of unyielding adherence to the rules, i.e. spanking whenever one had been earned, and a tone which made it clear they were very serious about what they were going to do.
I still find this
advice from Aunt Kay particularly instructive regarding the whole concept of being taken in hand by a woman with and appropriately stern attitude:
“Attitude is the whole thing in spanking a man. You can work on improving your techniques over time, but you have to start with the right attitude. Think about it. How many times and in how many ways has he shown you that he is basically a spoiled brat, little boy, in a grown man’s body? A million, two million? That's what you are dealing with and if our world wasn't so confused it would be normal for the woman of the house to wield the moral authority and the hairbrush without a second thought.” (emphasis added)
It's that overt display of authority, combined with picking up the brush without a second thought, that I feel like I need and that I hope we are going to work on a lot now that we have more freedom in terms of both time and being in an empty nest.
Paradoxically though, while I consciously feel like I want her to display more and more stern authority, my subconscious seems more ambivalent and also seems to feel like it’s happening more than I appreciate. I’ve had several dreams recently in which Anne is either (a) having an affair with another man and displaying it openly without any concern for how I feel about it; or (b) generally acting kind of haughty or dismissive of me. In the dreams, I’m always upset about the situation, but after I wake up and live with the dream for a while, there is an undeniably attractive erotic edge to it.
Looping back briefly to the subject of reporting, I wanted to share this that ZM sent me:
It is a box he built by hand to self-report to his wife on certain things that might not seem to bear reporting immediately but that she still might want to address. I really like the concept of the box being openable only by her, such that once he rats himself out, he loses control over that confession. I also am very envious of people who have the ability to build something like this from scratch, as I do not have a craftsman-like bone in my body.
On another topic, in a comment on last week’s post, ZM shared a recent event in which his wife invited a friend over while he was being punished. While the friend did not participate or see it happening, she was there in the house and knew it was going on. Alan commented on how this situation probably differs from something like attending a spanking party with people who all share “spanko” interests. I thought the whole comment was very thought-provoking:
But it has to be different in DD relationships where discipline is the focus and one’s ego is very involved and usually the third party is not a spanko as such.
I don’t really remember how I felt in the days and weeks after my initial public spankings. I do remember the mix of burning embarrassment and erotic fascination that bubbled up in me early after.
But then I think I went into a fairly long reflective period about what had happened and what I wanted and even who I really was. All the defenses come down for a while and amid the clarity seems to come some lethargy. Looking back on it I think I must have been reflecting on whether I really wanted to be a spanked boyfriend (husband), did I really want to think of myself that way, and in particular did I want others to know or see it.
Moving DD spanking from a private world to public is a huge psychological step for both partners, so you wife might be going through some sort of reflective pause also. For both my former GF and my wife it was sort of a victory lap, probably partly because of my initial reaction to it. For me I think it was a kind of integration of the role spanking now played in my life.
For me I think a lot of the fantasy was gone and I missed that. But having the real thing was more than worth it. But that all took some time.
Although I haven’t been spanked in any kind of public or semi-public
setting, I do think I get what Alan is talking about regarding how some
spanking or disciplinary experiences can push you into a very reflective
state. I still recall fairly vividly one
of the first times she gave me a very hard spanking for something “minor,” i.e.
failing to do some assigned chore. It
wasn’t the spanking itself, as much as the reason for it and her strictness and
sternness in ordering it and carrying it out.
There was something a little disturbing in the whole situation. It is
what I had been asking for, and here I was getting it for the first time. It definitely triggered some of those “do I
really want to be a spanked husband” thoughts that Alan refers to. I remember feeling kind of pensive and reflective for many days afterward.
One other very short point I wanted to raise with this group. We’ve talked a lot about how crying may be more dependent on duration than severity. About two weeks ago, I had one of my more typical behavioral slip-ups, and Anne ended up giving me a very long spanking for it; probably one of the longest she has ever given me. It still wasn’t long enough to bring me to tears. Moreover, for some reason that I can’t quite figure out, I actually felt pretty close to crying almost as soon as lowered myself over her knees. It wasn’t because of anything like an abnormally high level of remorse.
I hope you all have a great week.
From comments on my own blog , moving DD from a private to a public world seems to be a popular desire for many men , although they love the fantasy , they would be terrified if it actually happened so it's an interesting paradox.
ReplyDeleteI find myself thinking along similar lines sometimes, where it would be attractive for certain friends to know that she spanks me.
Lately she has become quite adept at dropping spanking threats in front of friends but she does keep them sufficiently cryptic without mentioning the S word itself , and in a way that they assume she is joking.
When I'm over her knee receiving a spanking I wonder what it would be like to have friends in the house listening and what it would be like to face them afterwards.
It's a very erotic thought for me but in reality I would be horrified if she actually did that.
I also crave that one of her cryptic comments was more direct, leaving no doubt that a real spanking was coming.
I was even thinking of asking her to do it but a part of me is still reluctant to let out happen.
I suspect that both of us would perhaps be more content and comfortable with our DD relationship if certain friends knew and accepted it.
My thoughts/fantasies around openness with friends seems to depend a lot on exactly whose friends we are talking about. For perhaps obvious reasons, the thought of her friends knowing seems more palatable than some of *my* friends knowing. Though, honestly, much of that is because I'm a man, with several "traditional" male friends who I think would not be positively inclined toward something like DD. But, it's a mixed bag. I have one younger former colleague--more a close acquaintance than close friend--who is totally unfiltered. I suspect he would get a kick out of it if I told him. I have some female friends/colleagues who I think would fall into the "supportive but not personally interested" camp.
DeleteI wonder whether some of the fantasy around others in the house listening is related to childhood experiences, at least for those of us of a certain age. When I was growing up, being taken out of a social (church, for example) or family gathering to be spanked was commonplace. Others might not hear the spanking, but they certainly knew it was going on.
I agree with you regarding my own male friends , the friends who most often come to mind are mutual , or even my , female friends.
DeleteFor some reason our female friends seem more interested and likely to enjoy than male friends.
Family of either gender would be out for me also.
We have one very close female friend of my wife's who is now a mutual friend who I suspect my wife may have confided it , just a hunch on my part but its strangely exciting if she did and I'd likely be comfortable with it if she mentioned spanking me in her presence.
I haven't ever overheard a spanking but have seen females spanked , interestingly I find an overheard spanking to be more titillating.
Same here regarding the overheard spanking being more titillating.
DeleteWhen it comes to discipline, I think the word is "consistent" rather than "strict" or "stern." Mrs. Lion is long past the point of delivering mild spankings. She is, however, prone to skipping them for almost no reason.
ReplyDeleteI can't say that I don't appreciate missing the spanking, but I know it isn't good for either of us. It happened yesterday. I had a medical appointment in the afternoon. I hadn't gotten around to setting up the coffee pot. I told her that I hadn't done it. She said she would give me a pass. I appreciated it at the time, but I knew it did a little damaged to our DD fabric. Consistency is the absolute key, I think.
I agree consistency is pretty important. Though, I very recently had an incident in which I went to the doctor not expecting to take down my pants, then had to. I was very glad that I had not been spanked recently.
DeleteHi Dan,
ReplyDeleteI was happy to see an your unexpected post. But it is so full of great content it is hard to respond since about every sentence has something to comment on! Since I can’t put together a cohesive response, I am just going to write multiple comments on different things that resonated with me, somewhat clumped by overall topic, but in no particular order.
On reporting…
Thanks for putting the picture of the box! I haven’t used the box yet, but that is largely because there is no point right now since my wife is visiting family and won’t be back for another week. Soon I am going to be putting some things in it. I guess we will see how it feels to drop something in the box, knowing I can’t get it back.
On tears…
The “magic recipe” for tears is easy. There isn’t one…! I have never been able to figure out the exact role that spanking severity, duration, “little boy” headspace, “take it like a man” resistance, and countless other factors play in the equation. The only thing I am quite sure of is that crying happens when emotional barriers come down, regardless of why or how they came down (which could also vary from circumstance to circumstance). For me, the few times that this has happened has been when I felt a sense of hopelessness. Kind of a “resistance is futile” sort of feeling.
-ZM
Thanks, ZM. You're probably right that there is no recipe for tears. Which is kind of a shame, since I think many husbands who are into this want to experience it, or think they do. Wouldn't it be nice if there were some step-by-step process to follow?
DeleteHi Dan,
DeleteIt would definitely be nice if there were some formula, and I am sure that many who are into DD would like to experience it at least occasionally, especially since they are so much a part of spanking lore.
Of course the main problem with a formula for this is that no two people are the same. So just like formulas don't work for relationships or anything else involving people, they generally wouldn't work for DD.
Having said that, I believe that there are some general principles that probably do normally apply, so I think there is in value in exploring those principles, even if it doesn't yield a magic formula.
-ZM
On witnesses…
ReplyDeleteI too have thought quite a bit about what Alan wrote. The overheard spanking (audibly witnessed?) might have been a month ago, but it is still very much a part of my thoughts. Especially the feeling of waiting for the door to the room to open, not being sure whether my wife or her friend were going to come in. In fact, even though my wife has told me that it was her who came in both times, I still find myself entertaining a seed of a thought that maybe it was the friend that came into the room the first time. The thing is, I trust my wife completely, and know that she always tells the truth. However, my wife is also very good at keeping secrets, so in the off chance that the friend did come into the room, but maybe told my wife that she would be more comfortable with me not knowing, then if my wife told her that she wouldn’t tell me, she wouldn’t. Anyway, the fact that I am not sure how this dilemma would play out in my wife’s mind leaves room for my fertile imagination.
I have seen the friend since then, and everything felt surprisingly normal, but we also had other people around, so I don’t think there was any chance for it to be awkward because there was no possibility that it would have been mentioned even jokingly.
Referencing Alan’s specific comments:
“Looking back on it I think I must have been reflecting on whether I really wanted to be a spanked boyfriend (husband), did I really want to think of myself that way, and in particular did I want others to know or see it.” - I can relate to this. Somehow, all at once I really want a few select people to know, but at the same time I still want to be seen as in control and so on, so kind of want them to not know too. I have mentioned before here that the ideal (though impossible) thing would be if you could tell someone or have someone witness a spanking, but then they would automatically forget about it after some length of time. This would give all the feelings of having someone know or see, but would also allow for the long term dynamic not to change.
“For me I think a lot of the fantasy was gone and I missed that. But having the real thing was more than worth it. But that all took some time.” - I am not to this point yet. But probably that is because there is still so much more that could happen on this front than just having this friend be there in the other room while I am being spanked. So while the fantasy for that part has went down a lot, there is still a lot of uncharted area with plenty of fantasy appeal.
-ZM
"Audibly witnessed" is a nice way to put it.
DeleteFor me, I kind of like it that the one close friend I have told obviously has not forgotten about it. While our relationship has not changed much, if at all, there is an "edgy" feeling on my side of it when I'm around her and her husband. I can't quite get it out of my head that she definitely knows and that he may.
Hi Dan,
DeleteDon't get me wrong. I am very happy that my wife's sister and their mutual friend know everything, that now the mutual friend has been within earshot when a punishment was happening and with full knowledge of what was going on, and also that the two others "kind of" know (they know a little, like that my wife "punishes" me, but certainly don't know the full extent, and probably would never even suspect that my wife spanks me). I wouldn't want them to forget. Regarding how it changes the dynamic, so far I have not really experienced any change, but it could be that next time I see the friend who "verbally witnessed" the spanking, I might notice some undercurrent of embarrassment, assuming that other people aren't around. As long as others are around, there is an inherent "safety" because I know the subject will not be mentioned, even obliquely. My guess is that at some point in the future, there will be some semi-open discussion or joking references made, and then I guess I will see how that feels.
Now to clarify what I was referring to in my "ideal scenario," where you could tell someone everything, have them witness a spanking - or for that matter anything else - and they would automatically forget the next day. It is not that I want any of those that we have told things to up to this point to forget. But the fact that they DON'T forget has very much shaped our approach to the whole "others" thing to this point. We have been VERY selective in who we have told, and very carefully gauged their responses during the process, letting their seeming openness and interest (or lack thereof) guide whether to tell them more or not. And while the one friend has heard a spanking, nobody has visually witnessed one (or for that matter participated in giving one). I am obviously only speculating, but I imagine that if we knew everyone would automatically forget the next day (and I guess also couldn't tell anyone would be good), we probably would have been much less selective in who we told and how much we told or showed them. For example, my very close female friend for many, many years, who is now also a very good friend of my wife. She is the one that my wife basically started the whole "others" thing off for me with, back when you asked the question "For both husbands and wives, if there WAS going to be a witness, with no getting out of it, who would you choose and why?" Anyway, my wife said "wow, imagine if this happened in front of ________!". This friend very much feels like a sister, or at least I assume she does, since I've never actually had a sister. Also, she is about 20 years younger than us. It would be embarrassing if she knew everything, and she certainly wouldn’t be my first choice as a witness, especially because I would hate to negatively impact the close relationship we have. However, in the hypothetical scenario I described, maybe we would actually have her witness a spanking? And if we did, even if I knew she was going to forget everything the next day at the moment it would still be quite intense.
-ZM
There is something really gratifying about knowing that my question planted an idea in your wife's head!
DeleteOn stern vs. Strict…
ReplyDeleteYour strict vs stern comparison was very interesting. I guess I have used the terms pretty interchangeably, but now I understand the clear distinction. One thing that we perhaps do differently than a lot of DD couples is we don’t really have any set rules. The closest we have is the weekly check-ins, but those are specific goals (like for diet/fitness) and general categories on which I am evaluated (like attitude) each week. In a way, these goals and being graded on categories are similar to rules, but somehow they just feel distinctly different. I think that maybe part of that is because these things do ultimately affect my wife, they are really more for my own good compared to a set of rules that might be more shaped by her wishes, desires, and annoyances.
I guess strictness doesn’t really apply for my wife, since we don’t have rules to strictly enforce, so what I really want is sternness, much like you wrote: “It's that overt display of authority, combined with picking up the brush without a second thought, that I feel like I need and that I hope we are going to work on a lot now that we have more freedom in terms of both time and being in an empty nest. Paradoxically though, while I consciously feel like I want her to display more and more stern authority, my subconscious seems more ambivalent and also seems to feel like it’s happening more than I appreciate.” - I am totally with you on this. The need for clearly imposed authority is for me one of the key attractions/motivations for DD and FLR. But then sometimes I bristle a bit when that authority is actually imposed. But ultimately it is what I want more of.
-ZM
"In a way, these goals and being graded on categories are similar to rules, but somehow they just feel distinctly different." That's sort of the way it works for us. I suppose you could say there are rules, but they are more implicit than fully expressed. We both kind of know and accept that my having too many beers and staying up late is punishable, but there aren't any hard boundaries defining what "too much" or "too late" means.
DeleteLike you, I do bristle a bit when authority is actually imposed, but I think that is an indication that it's a real boundary and really is being imposed and is not just being done because you want it.
DeleteExcellent insight about the fact that we bristle when authority is imposed is a pretty good indicator that it is both a real boundary and that it is is really being imposed. Actually, as I think about it, this same sentiment in general applies to quite a few aspects of DD and FLR; if you are struggling a bit when it happens, you are probably heading down the right path.
With regard to rules, I very much prefer not having fixed rules. To me, if we come up with a long list of rules that we mutually agree on, it feels more like I am controlling it all and she is just doing it to scratch an itch of mine. Us not having a fixed set of rules emphasizes the authority aspect, because she is not just someone enforcing the rules, but she is also who is setting the boundaries and judging when those boundaries are crossed, whether punishment is merited, and if so, how and how much. So this way feels closer to FLR.
-ZM
"Us not having a fixed set of rules emphasizes the authority aspect, because she is not just someone enforcing the rules, but she is also who is setting the boundaries and judging when those boundaries are crossed . . ." That's it exactly.
DeleteAnd finally (for now) on authority and my wife taking charge…
ReplyDelete“...this kind of relationship works better when the wife really takes up the reins and starts seeing spanking (and other punishments) as a go-to tool to address things that she thinks need to change, and it works less well the more I feel I’m in control of the process.” - Again, I agree wholeheartedly. For me, the more I feel I am in control of it, the less powerful of a tool it becomes. Also, we have pretty much the same thing as you and your wife, in that my wife just doesn’t seem to turn to spanking when she might be a little irritated, or even downright mad - though in fact she is VERY seldom mad. At the same time, she does like to give spankings, and even tries to find reasons, but then when I unwittingly give her real reasons, she doesn’t seem to take the opportunities.
Putting this together with sternness, I want my wife to take up the reins more and to really use DD to effect change. And when she decides something, I want her attitude to be quite stern and unrelenting. But a big obstacle for this is fairness. My really wife needs to feel like she is being fair (and of course loving). It is a just a big part of who she is. Our weekly check-ins are easier for her, because we have predefined criteria (“if this, then that…”) that she follows, so it feels more fair. But it is much harder for her to just take this very firm, stern approach on ad-hoc issues, and I think it will take practice and time.
What makes it even harder is that I tend to try to get out of punishments when they do happen. And every time I do, that provides kind of a negative feedback for her, making it that much harder for her to go ahead and put her foot down. Obviously one solution would be for me to resist less (probably ideal), but a somewhat sticky point in all this is that I also really want it to somehow feel fair. I guess I am a bit like KD on that. My wife can spank me anytime for no reason, but if she makes it for a reason (which is what I really want and need), then somehow that reason has to be valid.
To me, this dilemma is the key thing keeping us from making much progress on DD. What I want/need from my wife is very difficult to deliver on, and it will probably take lots of focus by both of us. I want her to continue to do her very best to be fair at all times. It is part of who she is, and she should never violate that. But if there is an issue, and if she is convinced that she is being fair even if I object a bit (which I need to try to not do), then I need her to steamroll any resistance I put up. And if - as will inevitably happen at some point - I still feel after a punishment that she was being unfair, I need to extend lots of grace to her, since she simply cannot and will not be perfect in her fairness or judgement every time.
-ZM
"And when she decides something, I want her attitude to be quite stern and unrelenting." This!
Delete"What makes it even harder is that I tend to try to get out of punishments when they do happen. And every time I do, that provides kind of a negative feedback for her, making it that much harder for her to go ahead and put her foot down." Unfortunately, this applies to us, too.
"[Aa]] somewhat sticky point in all this is that I also really want it to somehow feel fair. I guess I am a bit like KD on that." Here, I differ a bit from you and KD. It's not really important to me that it feels fair. That's not to say that in the moment I may think it is not fair, but feeling it is unfair isn't quite the same thing as actually wanting it to always feel fair. Honestly, it's kind of the opposite. I think it feels more real in those rare situations where we don't fully agree on fairness or where I think a spanking was too hard in relation to the offense. The fact that she delivered an "unfair" punishment emphasizes the reality of her authority and control, which is what I want. Most of the time, at least.
Hi Dan,
DeleteI get what you are saying with regards to fairness. And I agree 100% that it feels more real (usually much more so) in those situations that we don't fully agree on the offense. I also agree that her ability to give an unfair punishment is a pretty clear manifestation of her authority and control, and I am like you in that her authority and control are very central to the whole experience.
Also, as Alan has said before, spankings often seem to fix the whole unfairness thing quite miraculously. Quite a few times now, I have thought a spanking was unfair in the beginning, and yet somehow by the end of it, or if not then at least in reflecting upon it later, my thinking has been changed and I then agreed that it was fair.
But the reason I like it to feel fair is because I think I tend to object much more strongly when I feel it is unfair; while I might like the feeling of her putting her foot down, I still bristle somewhat at the unfairness of it. And of course that sometimes then causes her to let it slide, particularly if she wasn't so sure about the fairness and then me questioning it caused her to have second thoughts. Also, if I really feel it is unfair, then I don't feel at all guilty about it, so somehow the punishment dynamic is affected by that. It might be "real punishment" but it is not for "real offenses," at least in my mind. Anyway, if I could have everything, I would want it to seem fair enough, I would want to be able to try to get out of it (because I can justify ANYTHING), and ultimately I would want her to steamroll my objections.
But I do think this whole "fairness" thing is a HUGE driver for how seldom my wife actually turns to spanking. She of course doesn't want to give some big punishment for something very minor. But for a punishment to be real at all, it needs to be sort of big. In effect, most all punishment is disproportionate to the crime. So if she isn't sure just how fair it is she is likely to not proceed with punishment, particularly for things that affect her or irritate her (women who have experienced being moms often become pretty good at being selfless). On the other hand, she has no problem spanking me for missing diet or exercise goals during a weekly check-in, because the criteria are completely established and agreed upon, my health is vitally important to both of us, and she knows it is fair.
-ZM
That all makes sense. I've never asked my wife whether fairness is something she struggles with. If she does, I think it's probably a bit indirect and that what she worries about isn't so much being unfair but, rather, being perceived as "bitchy" for doing something unfair.
DeleteReading this "I keep thinking that something in her mind will click, and she’ll start thinking in the ordinary course that an if she’s mad enough to send an angry emoji then she’s mad enough to take up the paddle and address the situation until I’m in lots of pain and she’s satisfied I've learned a lesson" I have come to the possible conclusion that the perfect wife or partner will think about spanking as often as perhaps we do. As an example I probably think about spanking almost as often as I think about sex. I just don't think our ladies are often wired that way. We have had many conversations in our house that boil down to why doesn't she use discipline much more often, either actually or as a threat? Why is it not the first thing, the 'go-to' when I do or say something that displeases her? I have made that recourse clearly available to her and although she probably uses it weekly on average, she could easily use it almost daily based on my behavior sometimes. I have even suggested to her that by being that strict, that clear about boundaries and by taking action each and every time, that very soon the habit of better behavior will solidify and she will have to do it much less often.
ReplyDeleteI have explained that even an explicit verbal threat will very often get the result that she wants. But she lets many corrective opportunities go by and so, like the habitual criminals, I have worked out that the risk of a beating in response to some behavior lapse, is quite low. And so we make progress but more slowly than is possible... TB
“…she lets many corrective opportunities go by and so, like the habitual criminals, I have worked out that the risk of a beating in response to some behavior lapse, is quite low. And so we make progress but more slowly than is possible...
DeleteTB is pointing to what is probably very common in DD relationships. Although his comparison to the ““habitual criminal” is probably tongue in cheek, it is an apt comparison for explaining some criminal behavior and probably a lot of naughty husband behavior.
It also helps explain something many non-spankos are skeptical about –and that is why spankings for the same or similar offence often is repeated over and over. If a husband is 10 percent likely (in his calculus) to be spanked for breaking a rule, he, all things being equal, is likely to go ahead and do it if the opportunity arises. (Everyone’s number will be different but the point is that if the probability of actually being punished is very low for something you want to do, then you are likely to do it.
OTOH, if a husband judges the probability of a spanking 90 percent or more, he is going to be very careful. All of this plays out in determining how often a wife needs to spank in general or for specific misbehavior. Consistency matters here.
If my wife spanks me the next time I disobey her about my language in the house and then she spanks me the next two or three times the same issue comes up – she is going to either extinguish that behavior or ensure it doesn’t happen again for a long time.
But if she spanks me for the same thing today but then lets the next five or six times it happens slide by, I will not have learned much from the one time spanking. Consistency as we have discussed at length, is not easy and I know of no magic wand that makes it easier.
Considering the erotic dimension of disciplinary spanking, many couples may not even really want all that much consistency. More than a few women have complained in the blogosphere that there spankings had been TOO effective. But, circling back to TB’s point, if the risk of consequences for misbehavior is low, there is likely to be more of it.
Alan
Hi Alan,
DeleteThere is no question that as the risk of getting caught and receiving consequences goes up, the likelihood of misbehavior goes down. But I think it also depends very heavily on what the transgression is. For example, my wife could spank me every week or two for the rest of my life for my smart mouth, as long as the spankings were not brutal beatings that I would literally do anything to avoid. It would certainly help keep me in check, but I am still very much a smart aleck by nature so it is pretty hard to extinguish since it is basically a big part of my personality. On the other hand, if it was some easily changed behavior, maybe a single spanking would eliminate it forever, if for no other reason than it raises awareness of the issue.
I think that most - though obviously far from all - people are pretty good at calculating odds when it comes to taking risks on breaking rules. I speed most of the time because I seldom get caught. And if I do get caught, the penalty, while unpleasant, is not so horrible that it is unthinkable. If police caught you 50% of the time that you broke the speed limit and the punishment was immediate death by firing squad, I am guessing I would never speed. But then, I wouldn't like to live in a country like that. And the same is true for a house. For most, it is far better to let some misbehavior go uncaught and/or unpunished than to live in a brutal environment where every misdeed is punished.
-ZM
Hi ZM,
DeleteYou are correct to distinguish between a learned behavior and a personality characteristic in assessing both the effectiveness and the appropriateness of DD.
Virtually all of my experience receiving discipline has been to correct either learned behavior or more simply “bad habits” –and attitude issues, which is harder to define but like pornography every woman knows an attitude problem when she sees it.
I chuckled at your speeding scenario turning to the firing squad to punish speeders -- and no, that is not a country I would want to live in either.
But to extend the analogy: if speeding was actually punished more often than it is, the fine or other punishment wouldn’t need to be much different than it is now to seriously reduce speeding (maybe only a firing squad for repeat speeders).
For me at least it is probably that one in a thousand chance that I will be caught that keeps my foot on the pedal. The punishment in our state for serious speeding is severe enough but I have probably got 2 or 3 tickets if that my entire driving life, so the risk of punishment is much more the issue.
So too I think for spanking. Severity is probably necessary for some serious repeat bad behavior, but for most issues, certainty (or high risk in the terms you are using) is much more important.
And I especially agree with your point: “.., it is far better to let some misbehavior go uncaught and/or unpunished than to live in a brutal environment where every misdeed is punished.” Judgement and a sense of proportionality are critical skills every disciplinarian needs
But for most of us the issue is not a too zealous disciplinarian, but one who for one reason or another lets opportunities to correct misbehavior slide.
Personally I don’t consider that to be a problem. If my wife considers one of my behaviors to be a serious issue, she will find a way too let me know that she won’t tolerate it.
For other things however it is more “catch as catch can” and that works for both of us most of the time
Alan.
"I probably think about spanking almost as often as I think about sex. I just don't think our ladies are often wired that way."
DeleteThat's probably very true, though I wonder whether it relates more to the role than to gender. I have heard that it's the same in M/f dynamics - the "sub" or "bottom" is mentally way more into the spanking aspect of the relationship than the "top."
ZM and Alan, I think you both are clearly right that certainty and frequency are more important than severity when it comes to effecting actual change. Alan, I really like your observation that if frequency goes up, the severity probably can stay about the same. While the speeding example was an analogy, I've experienced that situation literally. I am a very frequent speeder. I got *a lot* of tickets in high school, but from college on I rarely got ticketed despite speeding constantly. Then, a few years ago, I had a huge streak of bad luck and got four tickets over the course of about two months. And, while it wasn't a permanent change, I definitely slowed down for a substantial period of time.
DeleteHi Dan,
DeleteI can certainly see why 4 tickets in two months would slow you down! I too had a lot of speeding tickets in high school. Fortunately, I lived in Montana, and at that time, even though they had the federally mandated 55mph speed limit, speeding was called "wasting a natural resource" and was a non-moving violation, the ticket was $5, and there were no points so it didn't affect insurance. I think it was mostly the state rebelling against the federal government, kind of like the state was saying "you can make us set the speed limit at 55, but that seems ridiculous to us, so maybe our 'penalty' will seem a bit ridiculous to you." Anyway, I was the lucky beneficiary of it many, many times (maybe 30 times or something).
As Alan said and you affirmed, the frequency of being caught and punished probably is a bigger factor than the severity of the punishment as far as changing behavior. Considering I hop behind the wheel at least 2 times every day, that means I drive at least 730 times per year. I speed every time I drive, without fail, so if I average 1 ticket every 7 years - probably about right for my adult years - I only get punished about 1 out of every 5000 times I speed. If I got caught even 2% of the time, then I would get a ticket every two months or so. I assume I would pretty quickly slow down, because quite frankly there is not all that much benefit to speeding. I get where I am going a couple of minutes earlier, and I like driving fast. But if it really started to cost me, there simply isn't enough benefit.
As long as the probability of being caught and punished is low, it is easy to think that "maybe I WILL be punished someday, but it won't happen TODAY." One thing that I really struggle with is being serious now about things that cause mostly long-term effects. Sure, I know that eating brownies makes me fat, and that being fat may shorten my life, but I like eating brownies, and they don't make me die today... One of the best effects of DD is that it dramatically shortens the event horizon (misusing an astronomy term) by providing much more immediate consequences, thus hopefully reducing or preventing much more serious long-term natural consequences. Better a painful bottom now than dying of a heart attack later.
-ZM
Your brownie point resonates so much with me, and not only because I really, truly love brownies. It also illustrates why bad habits are generally so hard to break. Most things that are bad for us in the long term also provide very immediate gratification. So, the positive consequences are immediate, while the negative consequences are usually both speculative and delayed. Moreover, stopping the bad habit usually entails immediate negative consequences, whether the emotional pain and hunger of foregoing the brownie or the excruciating boredom of driving the speed limit. It's a perfect recipe for doing the wrong thing -- immediate positive consequences for doing bad, delayed and speculative negative consequences, and any positive benefits of the doing the right thing are also generally delayed and speculative.
DeleteIf your wife makes the brownies then I would say you are obligated to eat them !
DeleteHi Dan,
Delete"It's a perfect recipe for doing the wrong thing -- immediate positive consequences for doing bad, delayed and speculative negative consequences, and any positive benefits of the doing the right thing are also generally delayed and speculative." - Exactly right. I think this is pretty much exactly what drives my lack of self-discipline. If I can actually continue something long enough to start to reap the benefits of it, I become pretty self-disciplined, but usually things fall apart long before I get to that point.
And Glen, I would have to agree on the brownies. I just eat them so my wife won't feel bad, so that should count for something!
-ZM
"If I can actually continue something long enough to start to reap the benefits of it, I become pretty self-disciplined, but usually things fall apart long before I get to that point." I'm usually the same way, though even after reaping the benefits it sometimes doesn't take much to push me off course. Three or four weeks ago, I felt like I had made substantial improvements on multiple fronts. I was keeping to a pretty clean diet, my weight was dropping, I was working out pretty diligently, and I felt like I was finally starting to have some new post-retirement direction. Then, I started relaxing on the diet a little and also had an unexpected trip that derailed me on diet, exercise, sleep, etc. Within a couple of weeks, I was more or less back at square one.
DeleteI'm sure Anne will be happy to give you an incentive to move up a few squares and get back on track Dan...happy Easter !
DeleteRegarding your forgetting to lock the door or similar.
ReplyDeleteHave you tried apologizing profusely and then asking her,
'This doesn't mean what I think it means does it?'
Let her respond. Then ask,
"You're not really going to reach for the paddle so quickly are you?"
See what she say's.
Or along with your response,
I know this is serious and this is really important to you but maybe there's some other way?
If she takes up the reins and takes control you have to give it to her or she's not going to pick them up easily. You have to accept and deal with being out of control at some point if you want to experience her control. Hopefully she takes control at some point and you experience what you feel you want. But I don't think you can have it both ways.
It's difficult when fantasy becomes reality and you're not allowed to go somewhere or do something that you'd really like too.
That's when you realize this is real!
Also regarding the public or having a witness discussions on here,
My wife can be verbal or drop a threat here and there and if she gets really mad and others are around I get nervous. SO I really try to not get her mad or do stupid things around others. Some examples would be;
At a diner we were bickering and my wife was getting angry. She was saying I'd had an attitude all morning and just as the waitress was walking up to us
with her face in the menu my wife said 'I really should have paddled you before we left, but when we get home', our waitress interrupted by asking if we were ready to order or if we needed more time?
My wife said we were ready and ordered, then I did as well. I felt embarrassed and thought my face must be red. The waitress seemed to defer to my wife from then on and even gave her the check asking her "mam do you get this?" My wife took the check and paid.
It may be exciting to fantasize about this but every time something has been said in a public situation I cringe. My wife also has made comments that seemed like a joke but I always feel warm and embarrassed when their made.
Another instance was when my wife was with a few old girlfriends and I stopped by the restaurant/bar for a beer with them. My wife wasn't driving so she'd had a couple glasses of wine and was very relaxed. I started to leave and my wife told me "Make sure the kitchen's clean, Or I'll spank!" I laughed it off with the others but she added a little more seriously "You know I will." I knew It was time for me to go and I hoped she didn't continue the conversation. My wife was dropped off later. The kitchen was clean but I still was spanked. Be careful what you wish for is true sometimes. BW
"It's difficult when fantasy becomes reality and you're not allowed to go somewhere or do something that you'd really like too. That's when you realize this is real!" Very true, and I honestly think it is more true with "alternative punishments" like not being allowed to go somewhere or do something than with spankings.
DeleteWaiters and waitresses and the way they leave checks is something I need to watch more closely for patterns. A couple of years ago, we started having my wife pay restaurant bills, almost every time. It was kind of a subtle way for her to feel and be reminded of her own authority. While I think it used to be almost the universal practice for the waiter/waitress to hand the check to the man, more often now days they place the check between the two of us, not clearly indicating an assumption about who will pay. But, sometimes a waiter or waitress will still hand it to me. I can't think of any example of them initially handing it to my wife. I'm curious and will try to start observing more closely whether there is some pattern involved, like is it more common for them to hand it me if it is a waiter, or a waitress? Or, might it vary by type of restaurant? Or, by region of the country?
I'd say you're right Dan. Most servers put the check down in a neutral spot, as I've seen in the last few years at least. I think they also don't really pick one or the other to speak to but rather address both. I have seen if one or the other of us were more engaged with the server and we're making more decisions the server gave the check to that one or it seemed it was more toward the one who was more engaging.
DeleteI remember in the past when it was almost always the men who were handed the check and addressed as though they were making the decisions. But not anymore. Now it does seem more neutral but I've also had servers who seemed to defer almost entirely to my wife without anything from us to show that she was the decision maker or "in charge" so to speak. When out we're usually equally making decisions. I really remember it was more female servers who did this and I felt a bit offended by it.
Type of restaurant, region is an interesting thought, I'll look for that but I tend to think it's the server. Or us, of course, if we're sending those signals. BW
Hi BW,
DeleteI commented a few seconds ago, but it seemed to disappear into the ether. Anyway, here goes again...
"If she takes up the reins and takes control you have to give it to her or she's not going to pick them up easily. You have to accept and deal with being out of control at some point if you want to experience her control. Hopefully she takes control at some point and you experience what you feel you want. But I don't think you can have it both ways." - I think this is exactly right. The biggest impediment to my wife taking control is me trying to hang onto the reins when she does assert her authority.
-ZM
ZM - sorry, apparently Blogger's spam filter is going haywire again. Found both your comments in there. Unfortunately, I logged in later than usual today and didn't check the spam folder until a few minutes ago. I'm also having a ton of problems publishing comments, with Blogger giving a "failed to publish. Try again later." message over and over. Argh!
DeleteHi BW,
ReplyDeleteDon't know if you will see this or not since it was on a previous thread, but I just saw your comments.
"If she takes up the reins and takes control you have to give it to her or she's not going to pick them up easily. You have to accept and deal with being out of control at some point if you want to experience her control. Hopefully she takes control at some point and you experience what you feel you want. But I don't think you can have it both ways." - I think this is precisely right. The biggest impediment to her taking control is me trying to hang onto the reins when she does assert her authority.
-ZM
HI ZM, Just letting you know I saw your post thanks.
ReplyDeleteAs for me there was never an issue with my wife taking the reins. My wife was the one to take the reins, authority and whatever else she needed to rein me in.
She's taught (or maybe trained me) that I'm better off not resisting her. If she's using corporal punishment she's not playing around and I dread it. My wife's strength or authority that she exhibits is exciting but at the same time I tend to feel very childish when I'm going to be spanked or if she warns me to stop something or I'm going to get a spanking. That's due to the severity of a spanking from her which I don't get that often.
If she tells me stop or else I'm getting a spanking will stop whatever I was doing. When she spanks I'm usually using a pillow or cushioned chairs for at least a couple of days.
So in the end my wife has the reins and is not letting go at this point. BW