"What cannot be cured must be endured." - Thomas Burton
Hello all. Welcome back to The Disciplinary Couple’s Club. Our (more or less, though recently not really) weekly on-line gathering of men and women who are in, or would like to be in, a Domestic Discipline relationship. I hope you all had a great week.
Well, it’s been awfully slow here at the Disciplinary Couple’s Club, hasn’t it? Little did I know that when I announced a very brief hiatus, and then ended up posting something anyway, virtually everyone would disappear. This is probably the slowest it’s been since the blog’s first year. I hope everyone was off having fun.
My time off wasn’t exactly “fun”, but there was some adventure involved. I made a major purchase that I think will give us a lot of enjoyment as we explore having a lot more time off. I’d been thinking about it for a long time and planned to do it, but the timeline was much shorter than I’d been planning on. Moving forward on it much sooner than I’d anticipated created a lot of stress, plus a steep and ongoing learning curve. It also entailed some impromptu travel, which in turn led to hooking up with some old work friends.
Unfortunately, one of the net
results of all the impromptu activity, scheduling changes and travel is it kind
of knocked me off my game where behavior was concerned. Though, truth be told,
things had been drifting for a while. I
had a few months there when I felt like I’d turned a real corner. I was showing a lot of self-discipline on
diet and had lost several pounds. I was getting into the gym regularly. My bingeing on alcohol was a lot lighter than
usual. I was meditating regularly. My
sleep was weirdly good, perhaps because of the decreased alcohol and more
regular meditation.
When I got back home, things
got a little better behavior-wise but didn’t return to the sweet spot I had
been in before. Looking back over the
course of the last few months, it’s not like there was one big fail or any decision
to relax standards for a while. Rather, one small slip sort of led to another
and another and another. . . . I also
found that when I tried to get back on track in one area, it didn’t really take
hold as long as I was still showing a lack of willpower in other areas.
For me, it’s pretty clear
that everything works better when I’m showing discipline across various
areas and not just within one or two big ones.
Though, it’s also true that screwing
up on one habit can have a disproportionate effect on others. For example, I’ve blown plenty of good trends
by having one bad night with too many beers.
I wake up tired and lacking energy. So, I eat bad food to power up
again. Maybe it also makes me blow off a
workout. The same applies to not
carrying through on some good habits. I’ve
been a chronic insomniac my entire life, but I can keep it under control if I
meditate daily. Sometimes I get busy or
distracted, or just slip out of the habit, and don’t meditate. After a few days, my sleep always goes to
hell.
So, what does this suggest
about Domestic Discipline for you? We
talked about a somewhat related issue back in September, namely “zero tolerance.”
But, that was really about taking a no tolerance approach to a single
problematic behavior. This week’s topic
is more about whether areas that need to improve exist in relative isolation
for you, such that you can target high priority areas while safely ignoring
others.
Or, are you like me and slippage
in one area inevitably tends to lead to slippage in others, such that you
really need to try to live a more disciplined live across the board if you are
going to make much progress, or maintain progress, in those areas where
improvement is really important?
I hope you all have a great
week.
Welcome back, Dan. I can relate to your description of life sometimes slipping into potholes which require recovery. Fortunately, in our FLR, she has prevented that scenario from occurring here by frequent maintenance spankings. They do keep me on track so to speak. Occasional discipline spanking still delivered when needed. Again, good to have you back.
ReplyDeleteSC, thanks. It's good to be back.
DeleteWe tried maintenance for a while, but it didn't seem to be something either of us gravitated toward. I think that for me, the "accountability" factor is such a huge part of DD, that "just because" spankings don't quite work for me. Though, I can see how they might make you more consistently aware of the need to behave.
We too have tried maintenance spankings some, but I am pretty much the same as Dan in that "just because" spankings don't really work for me. I do see the validity of maintenance spankings, not only to remind the consequences of bad behavior but also to reiterate the authority that she has. Still, when she delivers a maintenance spanking, it seems to feel more pretend in some way. This could be because my wife actually kind of likes to do spankings "just because," not under the guise of maintenance or anything like that. So for that reason, I probably automatically associate any spanking not tied to a specific behavior with spanking play.
Delete-ZM
I completely under both of your prospectives and have heard this from other lifestyle friends. Here, 'maintenance spankings' are much longer than discipline and can be quite intense. An hour long is not uncommon. I do understand the concept of their seeming like a 'spanking without reason' to many folks. Here, the maintenance program was instituted when my improved behavior tapered discipline spanking to near nonexistence. Designed to accomplish 3 goals... to remind me of who is in charge and what my submissive role is.... to sample what is in store for real punishment... and to serve as a 'catch all' for minor infractions which may not have warranted a spanking at the time. Contrary to maintenance spankings, discipline contains no warmup, no safe word and no after care. Our system may not work for everyone but has been very good for us.
DeleteThanks, SC. I definitely can see the value in that kind of system. In addition to reminding you who is boss, I'm sure many of the wives also could use regular reminders of the authority they have and that they shouldn't forget to use it when necessary.
DeleteHi Dan,
ReplyDeleteWelcome back. The blogosphere misses your presence as well as your provocative questions.
Circles versus spirals is a great metaphor for the languor we all feel sometimes. For me what works is establishing momentum in one or two areas so that other areas sort of get pulled along al la centrifugal force.
And since this is a spanking blog I will note that my wife with a hairbrush in her hand and a determined look on her face, can supply a lot of that initial momentum if needed. Whether it is motivated by a close-by ominous hairbrush or simply “will-power”, once moving, I tend to keep moving,
Alan
Thanks, Alan. You're right that a spanking or the threat of one can be a kind of "willpower by proxy."
ReplyDeleteThat spiral meme kind of surprised me, because I've seen something like it before but with a more positive spin. The gist of the previous version I'd seen was that while we sometimes feel like we are going in circles, it's often more like going up a spiral staircase, in which the view may be repeated over and over but, since you're going up the stairs, you're viewing it from a higher and higher perspective.
"but, since you're going up the stairs, you're viewing it from a higher and higher perspective."
ReplyDeleteNew Jersey is beginning to facilitate that experience today, apparently drawing long lines. There is just something about spiral staircases
Alan
Alan, I think that cultural reference went over my head. Could you elaborate?
DeleteMarijuana ( one ounce) became legal and available in NJ today, making it possible for Garden State citizens to view things from " a higher and higher perspective."
ReplyDeleteAlan
Ah, got it! My state was one of the early adopters on both medical and recreational.
DeleteDev gave a maintenance spanking today. Took the edge off. Better than nothing. JR
ReplyDeleteWhile maintenance spankings in general don't do much for us, I do wonder whether it's sometimes what I need, just as a reminder about behavior. Though, it's also true that the reason I think it could help is because my behavior has been slipping, and with my behavior slipping I've earned actual spankings. So, it's probably not so much maintenance that I need but, rather, more rigorous enforcement.
DeleteHi Dan,
ReplyDeleteI am not sure where I am at on this. There are certainly times when I seem to be firing on all cylinders and moving forward on most everything, as well as times where everything goes downhill rapidly. But then there are also quite a few times where I do pretty good on some things even as other areas are languishing. Probably it depends on what is causing the failure to push forward. Sometimes it is the result of external stresses that I have little control over, sometimes it is because I get lazy or unmotivated, sometimes it is because of fatigue, and countless other reasons.
Most recently, I was doing pretty great on every front, but then my wife was out of the country for a few weeks, and at the same time I was hit with an overwhelmingly stressful problem which resulted in an enormous amount of work to do - enough to keep me very busy for the next month or so in addition to my normally too-busy life. When this happened, everything basically hit the wall because I was just pushed past the breaking point.
My wife responded to it perfectly. She was supportive, helpful, and understanding and pretty much let everything slide. I basically relaxed about diet and exercise (though quite frankly I have been working my butt off the last 3 weeks or so, so probably I have been more more physically active than ever). I finally slowed down some and rested, and now I am anxious to get going on diet and exercise again, as well as finish working through this huge task that I have and restoring some order to life.
The reason I said I don’t know where I am on this is because while I said my wife’s approach of being nurturing and supportive was perfect in this case, in other circumstances, the best response by her might be to take a “zero tolerance” stance and push me harder and force me to try to get control of the situation, regardless of what obstacles or challenges there might be.
As time passes, I am realizing just how challenging a task it is for her to exercise this authority over me, and even more so I am appreciative and thankful to have someone as great as her who rises to the task so well.
-ZM
Hi ZM. I'm sorry to hear life has been so stressful and busy. I totally get that thing about hitting a wall. There are times when one aspect of live gets so overwhelming that is pretty hard to maintain any good habits. Though, I also find that sometimes the stress I'm experiencing leads to doing things to blow off steam, then those things (drinking too much, not working out, eating bad food etc.), cause me to feel bad physically, which gives me less energy to get through the crisis period. It's a vicious circle. Though, as I said, there definitely are times that I think life just gets very hard and it becomes difficult for even a reasonably self-disciplined person to not let some things slide.
DeleteI also get what you're saying about how hard those periods can be on the wives, too. We expect them to be able to tell the difference between degrees of stress and to adjust accordingly, imposing and even tightening boundaries at some times but cutting us slack during others. I'm sure for many of them it is very hard to know where to draw the line.
Work has been really busy. I only read discussion on the post about strictness vs. sternness vs. consistency just now, and thought it was thought-provoking.
ReplyDeleteAs for this week's topic, I progress by what might be described as "upward spiral whack-a-mole." The idea of a complete discipline regime that only lets me make progress is just a fantasy for me. One of my discipline goals is to lock in routines that are actually harmful to me (physical health) or risk my job (personal internet during the workday) without focusing on lots of small daily goals that, while worth doing, add up to a day without a significant accomplishment if fully completed. Hopefully that makes sense. My wife is on board with these priorities but doesn't want to think about enforcing more than the critical daily routines.
I'm sorry work is busy. I enjoy your comments here and hope work lets up.
Delete"[U]pward spiral whack-a-mole." I really like that, and it's a pretty damn accurate description of how my own progression (and sometimes lack thereof) seem to work. I get focusing on "big ticket" things, particularly things that can have a big or even catastrophic impact on your life if not kept in check. Unfortunately, I find that I start straying more across the boundaries and flirting with those things if I'm not also trying to keep the "small" things in check.
Hi MW, I too thought the strictness vs. sternness topic was interesting and thought-provoking. As I have thought about it more, while both strictness and sternness sound somewhat desirable, the realities of life make strictness (and consistency) very challenging to achieve. Either way, I definitely want sternness, so when my wife does decide to put her foot down, I want her to be resolute and unyielding, and to make me not only feel punished, but very much a chastised little boy.
Delete"he idea of a complete discipline regime that only lets me make progress is just a fantasy for me." - This is true for me as well, though we have done surprisingly well with out weekly check-ins. Even there, life gets in the way sometimes and so even they go by the wayside for a few weeks every now and then, but basically we stay pretty on task with them. Still, we end up mostly focusing on higher priority items, as you said.
As I have mentioned here before, I am somewhat fascinated with military boot camps, where they basically control every aspect of the new recruit's life for a few months, and in the process generally turn the recruits into more responsible, self-disciplined people than they were when they joined. I am not sure if this is as true now as it used to be, when they had a lot more flexibility in mistreating the recruits (I really don't know, maybe it is the same now as before?). Anyway, I think that a key part of that is that it is intensive - pretty much all consuming - and this intensive period lasts long enough to affect real change. Also, the consistency is there, because they are watching everything and responding swiftly and surely to every misstep.
But I think a key part of that, which makes it difficult to replicate in a DD relationship, is that during the boot camp process, they control everything, so there are not many outside distractions. In life, there are continuous distractions: work, family concerns, money concerns, etc. I am pretty convinced that if my wife could become drill instructor for several months and if there wasn't life that gets in the way, she could get me in pretty great shape and also help me to gain some self-discipline that I naturally lack!
Also, I totally get what Dan was saying here about if we let the small things slide, the bigger things tend to go with them much of the time as well. In fact, one of the thoughts I have continually had is that maybe it is better to focus on the small things, and in so doing the bigger things would take care of themselves. If my wife paddled me so hard I was crying and couldn't sit comfortably for days (for example), I am pretty sure I would have addressed the huge pile of things that I need to organize around the house!
-ZM
"[W]e have done surprisingly well with out weekly check-ins. Even there, life gets in the way sometimes and so even they go by the wayside for a few weeks every now and then, but basically we stay pretty on task with them. Still, we end up mostly focusing on higher priority items, as you said."
DeleteI think you're making more progress with consistency than we are, and as usual some it is my fault, some is hers, and most of it is just "real life" getting in the way. I did pretty well on self-reporting for a few weeks, then it fell apart. It was largely because we did some traveling, had some house guests, had other things going on, several weeks in a row. The excuse I give myself is generally along the lines of, "What's the point of self-reporting if [we aren't home, we have guests . . . insert specific distraction here] and, therefore, she can't/won't take action anyway." Yet, I know in my heart that there is value in the consistency of the reporting for it's own sake.
Some of it is on her, too. There have been instances lately of bad behavior that she knew all about but didn't address. Self-reporting shouldn't be necessary in those situations. Yet, even in those instances I blame my failure to self-report in part, because even if she knew about it already, maybe the report acts as a prompt or reminder to do something about it.
You make a good point that that the military model works in part because of the lack of "real world" distractions during the boot camp process. Though, I share your attraction to experiencing some period of much more rigorous enforcement to see if it would have a major effect.
Having guests or travelling could be seen as an opportunity for her to assert her authority, as she could order you to complete your report , perhaps even in the presence of your guests for added authority.
Delete"Don't forget to complete your report Dan , it is overdue and you wouldn't want to receive a penalty would you?"
Then you would humbly leave to complete your report.
Same thing when travelling and staying with friends or at a hotel.
If you are going to report you should be prepared by bringing whatever you need to report as it is only once per week.
She should make reporting compulsory carrying punishment for non compliance...no excuses!
PS tske note that hotels no longer provide notepaper anymore.
Hi Glen,
Delete"Don't forget to complete your report Dan , it is overdue and you wouldn't want to receive a penalty would you?" - This would certainly be eye-opening if my wife said something like this in front of others (of course substituting the name). While we have went a ways down the path of others knowing, my wife has never said something even obliquely hinting at spanking to me with others in the room or to others while I was in the room. The closest she has come is when she mentioned "putting me to bed" when her sister and the friend who knows everything was in the room - which was not spanking related but kind of addressed the power structure - and the one time that she told her friend on the phone that she was punishing me, which ultimately resulted in the friend being in the other room while I was punished. Even in the second case, which was about as direct as possible, it was much different because the friend wasn't in the room. I think it would be entirely different to have something said in front of someone else while you can see their faces and they can see yours, even if what is said is not quite as direct, similar to what you suggested.
-ZM
....made worse by the fact you have to trot off somewhere to complete your report for her to comment On!
DeleteShe can have lots of fun with by commenting on your report in front of others , "That was not a good report Dan...I'll be addressing it later with you!"
Pretty sure commenting on a report is not going to happen!
DeleteZM, I agree it would be a totally different experience to have something said in front of someone when you can see their reaction and they can see yours. I know from experience that I blush very obviously when embarrassed. I was in a meeting at work once, in a large group, and a woman I worked with said something pretty risque that was aimed at me. Everyone laughed, and one woman commented, "Wow. That's the first time I've ever seen you blush!" Which made me blush even more.
I'm a blusher too Dan and as much as I cringe at my wife's ,thankfully cryptic , comments , I strangely desire it.
DeleteI even blush when she makes a comment in private , and her classic response is " something else is going to be red!"
She hasn't used that one in front of others but I kind of hope she does!
I'm not sure whether I blush when my wife makes a comment in private. I'll have to ask her.
Delete"You'll be blushing at both ends!" is another of her favourites!
Delete"... as much as I cringe at my wife's ,thankfully cryptic , comments , I strangely desire it." - I am exactly the same on "strangely desiring" this and for that matter all the embarrassment surrounding spanking. I am sure this is what drives my fascination with others knowing or witnessing.
DeleteAs time has passed and with each new DD experience, I have realized that this strong embarrassment is a big part of what was missing when I was spanked, so even receiving the hard spankings that I had always dreamed of didn't really have the emotional impact that I expected. In fact, I can say reasonably confidently that it is embarrassment/humiliation that really forms the basis for my fantasies, more than spanking itself. The strange thing about all this is that I am one who absolutely hates to be embarrassed in any other situation.
I am pretty sure that I blush even in private when my wife says things, but I need to ask her to confirm.
-ZM
I agree Z.
DeleteAt the end of the day it is all about being humbled and brought down a notch or two.
Whether it be going over her lap for an embarrassing and painful spanking , wincing when we sit ,or being on the receiving end of a comment in front of others which insinuates that she is in charge, when we feel humbled we make an effort to change.
I assume our strange desire to be humbled means we also have a desire to change ?
DeleteGlen, for me, I think two different things are going on. My desire for spanking in particular IS at last in large part, about a desire to change. It's about wanting consequences, and consequences that are tough enough and consistent enough to drive real change. I think the desire to be humbled is related, but ultimately a little different. For me, the desire to be humbled is about wanting not to be in control. It's about having control taken from me and being subject someone else's authority. For me, I don't think the "humbling" aspect of DD is directly related to having a desire to change.
DeleteHi Glen and Dan,
DeleteI like what both of you said about this and think you both hit on some truths, and it seems that we all share a desire to change and for DD to assist in change taking place.
"...When we feel humbled we make an effort to change." - I expect that this is true not only in DD but in any punishment (and perhaps other) context. Humility doesn't co-exist very well with attitude, so a pretty good indicator that a punishment made an impact and the message was clearly received is when attitude vanishes and is replaced with humility. When that happens, it is not unreasonable to expect that real change might follow as well.
"My desire for spanking in particular IS at last in large part, about a desire to change. It's about wanting consequences, and consequences that are tough enough and consistent enough to drive real change." - I also agree that tough, consistent consequences drive real change.
I also think that the desire to be humbled is connected to wanting to not be in control and being subject to my wife's authority.
Overall, I think that tough, consistent consequences have to do with the actual punishments employed (spanking or otherwise), and being humbled is the emotional result that comes from being punished. I am not sure exactly how they are connected, but I do know that they are linked. Certainly either a spanked bottom or a spanked ego can bring about change, but the most powerful by far is when they happen hand in hand, particularly since the painful reminder of a sore bottom seems to help the humility stick around for a bit longer.
Having said all this, I am still not sure exactly why I so crave the humbling of public spanking comments or having a witness, considering that I really, really don't like to be embarrassed in any other part of life AT ALL! Maybe it has to do with the validation that Alan referred to or something like that?
-ZM
For me, I think there is more separation between what it takes to make me feel like consequences have been imposed or that I've been effectively punished, versus being humbled. During that period between a spanking being ordered and being carried out, I do feel humbled and "brought down a peg." But, not so much afterward. I'm not sure why. It feels more like the slate is clean at that point, and I don't feel cocky but I don't exactly feel humbled either. I feel humbled more by the act of her ordering the spanking, or on those few occasions when she's made some cryptic spanking-related threat in front of others. I do think being spanked in front of witnesses, or having it referred to in front of them, would be VERY humbling.
DeleteI find it interesting that it is behaviour that is the exact opposite of being humble which usually earns us a spanking in the first place, name being arrogant and overbearing towards our wives , or others.
DeleteIt is appropriate as the recipient of our arrogant and overbearing behaviour , That our wives are the ones to humble us by scolding , ordering punishment , having us face them naked and having to submit to their authority.
I agree that her ordering me to get in position for a spanking and assuming that position is the most humbling moment.
I suppose it is normal not to be humble after the spanking but we are certainly not arrogant or overbearing anymore which must be very satisfying for her.
Hi Glen, agree wholeheartedly about everything you just wrote. I know that after a punishment I do feel very much that the slate is cleaned, as Dan said. I do think the most humbling part is the lead up to a punishment. Once it starts, I am thinking mostly about the punishment and somewhat about what got me into the predicament. Afterwards, I feel very calm and centered, and I am sure I am much less arrogant than normal, but I don't necessarily feel all that humbled once it has passed.
DeleteNow if I were to have a spanking witnessed and if I were to be around the witness immediately after, I think the post-spanking time might be quite a bit more humbling, knowing that the person just watched that happen to me.
-ZM
"Now if I were to have a spanking witnessed and if I were to be around the witness immediately after, I think the post-spanking time might be quite a bit more humbling, knowing that the person just watched that happen to me." Imagining that scenario made me feel more humble just thinking about it.
DeleteInteresting that adding a witness makes the spanking itself humbling , so what is happening with the witness dynamic I wonder.
DeleteDoes the witness have to see the spanking ? What if they just overheard it or learned about it was going to occur? Still humbling?
All I can do is speculate since I haven't experienced witnesses, to me someone overhearing seems just as humbling as someone seeing it. As for learning it was going to happen, I think it depends on when and where. If, for example, my wife and the friend who knows were having lunch and my wife were to tell her that I had misbehaved and was going to be spanked that night, I don't think I would find it humbling. If I was there during that lunch, it definitely would be embarrassing. If we were together at our house and my wife told me to go to the bedroom and made it clear she was going to spank me then and there, that would be even more embarrassing and humbling, even if the friend did not actually hear it going on.
Delete"you can target high priority areas while safely ignoring others". There is some good research out there which contradicts this; the summary is that improvement in one area generally & reliably leads to improvement 'across the board' and visa versa with dis-improvement. A kind of 'I've messed up here so I won't try so hard anywhere' leading to an overall decline in discipline, motivation and standards. I know that is the trend with me. I am in an extended (four weeks) period of no physical discipline which is the longest in many years. We had a disagreement (mainly my fault) which led to the last session which was particularly painful and accompanied by a number of spoken 'home truths'. My follow up (written) apology contained some promises around behavior which unusually I have maintained on the topic that caused the issue but I also feel disinclined to step over any boundaries. I have had some (effective) warnings which have stopped me over-stepping. It is a strange feeling and I have no idea how long it will last - it may be that my tendencies to misbehave have been finally cured (!) ... but I somehow doubt it ... TB
ReplyDelete"A kind of 'I've messed up here so I won't try so hard anywhere' leading to an overall decline in discipline, motivation and standards." Yeah, I think this is exactly it and exactly what I started experiencing after a period of relatively good behavior.
DeleteI have had some (effective) warnings which have stopped me over-stepping." I think this would make a huge difference for us if it happened more often.
I am often - though not always - the same way that if I do drop the ball, I tend to just throw up my hands. This is especially true with diet. The reason I said often, not always, is because there are also times of intense stress where I really keep pushing forward super hard, but because the stress is too much I will choose to let one or two things slide just to make life a bit more bearable.
DeleteAs far as effective warnings, as I have said before, my wife doesn't use them much at all. About the only thing I can think of is looking at my phone too much, especially when we are around others. Several times she has sent me a threatening text and I in every case have changed direction immediately. However, I should point out that this has been situational, and while I immediately put down my phone, it hasn't changed my overall long-term behavior much at all. So now, I am facing an impending punishment for just this issue, which has been delayed only because my wife has been having some wrist pain for some days.
-ZM
I should add, since we got so far down the path of "humbling," that it is yet another seeming contradiction in DD. I want and in fact crave much more on the humbling front, and can think of little else with regards to DD for the past few years. At the same time, it is the feeling of being humbled that I have such a hard time accepting gracefully, and it is a big part of the reason that I try to get out of spankings.
ReplyDeleteI would just love to understand all the psychology around spanking, DD, FLR, and why we are motivated to want this, or at least I would like to understand myself and my desires and motivations!
-ZM
While I'm not sure whether I crave it as much as you do, the desire to be humbled definitely is a thing for me. Though, as you say, in the moment it is happening I do not like it at all and have a very hard time accepting it.
Delete