The longer I write this blog, the more confident I am that Hermione is right that this lifestyle chose us, we didn’t choose it. Logically, who would? Why get spanked when you could just get away with stuff? And yet . . .
I would also like to give a shout-out to the previous iteration of today’s celebration - Love Our Lurkers. It’s been a little slow here in terms of adding new members to our little club. If you stop by regularly but seldom comment, why not give it a try? In this year of Ted Lasso, we all seem to be craving a sense of community. So, why not join this community of unconventional people? Come on, give it a try.
And, for our regulars, thank you for your ongoing support and participation. You have indeed become a community that means a lot to me.
Hi Dan,
ReplyDeleteThanks for joining us this year. Blog on!
Hugs,
Hermione
Same to you!
DeleteHappy LOL day Dan. Thank you for your blog. I enjoy and learn from it!
ReplyDeleteThank you, Mark.
DeleteHappy LoL Day, Dan, and thanks for joining the fun!
ReplyDeleteSame to you, Bonnie!
DeleteHappy LOL Day. And I'm proud to be unconventional :)
ReplyDeletePrefectdt
Same here!
DeleteHappy to be a member of our group and love living this lifestyle.
ReplyDeleteThanks, SC.
DeleteHappy LOL Dan. Maybe you should get one spanking for every new person who comments. I may comment a little more, but it a unpleasant pain in the butt to use anonymous, so no follow ever comes back, and I have to keep track and go check for a reply.
ReplyDeletebottoms up
Red
Based on the number of new people so far, I probably could safely take you up on that. :-)
DeleteHappy LOL Day to you! :-)
ReplyDeleteSame to you, Erica!
DeleteDan,
ReplyDeleteThank you for providing a forum to share in. I feel a little more secure here since other blogs are often over the top (though they do give me ideas as my husband would definitely agree with). Unfortunately friends, and my own sister, seem too conservative to share with about DD/FLR. I like the idea about a spanking for every new member you get. Better not tell Anne, or maybe you should.
Have a great weekend,
Carol H.
Hi Carol. I'm glad you feel secure here.
DeleteMost of the family and friends in my life aren't conservative per se, but I've also never gotten a hint that they are very kinky either or are interested in DD and FLR.
Carol and Dan, do you believe subscribing to conservative viewpoints tends to have a negative or inverse correlation with interest in and support for F/M DD? And why/why not? Or have any other sources looked into this? I don't personally believe it is necessarily rare for this to happen among conservative married couples.
DeleteHappy LOL Day.
DeleteWhat does conservative mean in this context?
In this particular exchange, I was using "conservative" in a non-political sense. I'm not sure how Carol was using it. My own view is that political conservatives are often just as kink or sex motivated as liberals, but they feel a compulsion to hide it. Seems like nine times out of ten when some prominent politico gets tagged in some sex scandal, it's a supposedly conservative, "family values" type. I personally find the whole "family values" strain in fundamentalist Christianity amusing, since Jesus never said a word in favor of the traditional family and, on the few times that he addressed the topic at all, he encouraged the listeners to leave their families entirely. Similarly, Paul advised not getting married at all. This is another area in which fundamentalists have simply created a supposedly "Christian" value out of whole cloth, entirely untethered to anything Jesus actually is purported to have said.
DeleteBrett & Dan,
DeleteI used the word "conservative" in a way that was not in a political or religious sense. Maybe a better word would have been "traditional". My sister, and close friends, seem to be fairly traditional people. One friend is active in the PTA. Another friend is like a carpool mom. They are very nice and I've known several for a long time. But they just don't seem like DD/FLR types, though you never know what is happening behind closed doors. My sister is a few years older than me. I was the baby in the family. My sister seems to me to be very traditional in her approach to things. For example, I've commented that my husband goes on one or two camping trips with his best guy friends. My sister told me that while she trusts her husband she really wouldn't approve if he did something similar. My sister feels my husband could be influenced or tempted by his buds to get into mischief. To be honest, he has it too good with me (and he's also told me this). He wouldn't do anything to place our relationship in jeopardy. I believe him. Of course, he would face serious consequences if his did do something bad and future trips into the woods doing whatever outdoor things men would not be allowed. My point is that I just don't get a sense that they would be interested in kink.
Carol H.
"Though you never know what is happening behind closed doors." How very true.
DeleteWhile you obviously know your sister and her proclivities, it seems at least a little interesting that she apparently has some kind of approval rights over her husband's activities, including whether he is allowed to go camping with friends. Just hearing that as an outsider, it sounds at least a little FLR-ish if she can impose that kind of restriction and he goes along with it.
Dan,
DeleteYou make a good point. My brother-in-law seems to defer to my sister. I don't think it is a FLR in any way, but she does have a lot to say lol. As far as camping, or any other outside activities, my brother-in-law plays a little golf and they like the ocean. He isn't interested in activities in the wild that I can think of. I got a Mean Wife Carol thought typing this response: since my husband prefers me to lead the marriage, perhaps I'll tell him he must pass on future outings because he is in FLR and he belongs home with me doing what I want. I'm half tempted to do it as a joke and evaluate his response.
Carol H.
Dan, I don't agree with the points made regarding the Bible, but that isn't really a point for here, so anyway. Carol, I suppose it is possible for a man to be henpecked without there being any clarified or understood FLR and/or DD system in place. My wife thankfully refrains from henpecking me and deals with whatever is bothering her during DD.
DeleteRegarding things like camping trips, it may be that a husband is the leader, but still voluntarily asks his wife if she is happy with him going on such trips. But then as I don't know the couple in question, there may be more information that would cause me to discount this idea.
Regarding traditional families, as said, it is hard to know what goes on behind closed doors, but I have no doubt that some traditional couples do things like this in secret. I am sure people have privately asked if husbands would benefit from corporal punishment (given how often it was used on children in the past) for ages and it isn't new. There is this famous piece of art from 1480 or so: https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/468640
Dan et al,
DeleteInterest in DD that features spanking seems to transcend ideologies as the many blogs among other evidence demonstrates. From what I have seen on line. “Conservatives” struggle a bit with F/M but some do seem to find it compatible while most conservatives are probably drawn toward the M/F orientation. But with “liberals” emphasis on equality and pro feminist tilt, most F/M couples but not all lean liberal
So I think interest in spanking trumps any political orientation with the qualifications noted. People are complex and our erotic lives sometimes become the mirror opposite of our public personas. For me this explains why sometimes a strongly feminist women might seek a relationship in which she is submissive while males dominant in the everyday world gravitate to relationships in which their wives or girlfriends control and discipline them.
Alan
Carol: "I don't think it is a FLR in any way, but she does have a lot to say lol." I'm sure we all know marriages like that! Regarding your "mean Carol" thought about barring your husband from camping, only you can decide who that would fly and whether it would be good or bad for your relationship. For me, that one would cause some major, major resentment on my part if my wife ever tried something like that. Thirty years after-the-fact I'm still mad about one event with friends that she caused me to miss, and she knows that I still resent it.
DeleteAlan: I agree people are complex, and I think the degree of complexity and complication probably plays out in our erotic lives. I suspect too that most of the time our psyches strive for some relative balance. A friend of mine in a M/f dynamic describes those of us with these needs as often having "disordered" personalities that tend toward extremes. I agree with her, though I like the term "unbalanced" more than disordered. I don't have any problem acknowledging that I seem to have an abnormally high need for accountability, and I am pretty hard in my judgments about my own behavior. I also have been, as you say, "dominant in my everyday world." I absolutely believe that DD, and my on-again-off-again attraction to D/s and FLR, reflects my psyche's attempt to balance things out. Someone into Chinese medicine would probably say I have way too much yang and too little yin, and my DD desires are trying to pull things into a better balance.
I think terms like “disordered” and even unbalanced “are extremely judgmental and in the latter case –pejorative. They also don’t go very far toward explaining the underlying dynamic. Complementary balance in the sense of yin/yang is something that resonates. I do believe we all strive for some sort of psychological integration among the multiple facets of personality –and people with more complex personalities probably do a lot more striving.
DeleteAlan
I think unbalanced as pejorative depends on how it's being used. It could be used as a euphemism for a mental disorder, but that's not the sense in which I'm using it. I'm using it more literally, i.e. as a lack of balance or, as you say, integration, between extremes. Disordered seems to be very close in meaning to a lack of integration, as you put it. A lack of order and a lack of integration seem more or less synonymous.
DeleteAlan, my wife and I are conservative. We are okay with F/M DD (but not with M/F DD), though we never wanted to go as far as FLR. The part about it mirroring my public persona is definitely right. It mirrors a large part of my private persona as well. My wife and I take the view that DD smooths the sharp edges of my alpha personality and refines it. Complementing is also a good way of putting it.
DeleteDan, balancing things out is definitely a strong feature when it comes to a motivation for DD (on both sides). I also desire strong accountability in our DD ways of doing things.
Dan & Hugh.
DeleteI do agree that balanced or balancing is a valid concept, but will continue to view 'disordered" as judgmental and pejorative. That sort of language goes back to terming homosexuals or anyone else who didn't stay with missionary sex as "disordered" and I hope we have moved beyond that. Hugh, I hope you will talk more about how you and your wife, as conservatives (which I will assume hold “traditional” gender roles until you correct me) reached an F/M relationship. I don’t think you are unusual in achieving that but how you got there would be very interesting. We Btw are not FLR either by mutual choice. I think DD can work well outside of an FLR and to bring the conversation back around, it can add balance to a relationship or what my former GF often called ‘an even playing field”
Alan
Alan, I can't remember when I first became aware of F/M DD, or for that matter, DD generally, though I am certain it was at some point during the engagement. In premarital counselling, there were various things that we were encouraged to think about and discuss regarding married life, so that we would not have any surprises when we came to get married. Just to be clear, nobody encouraged us to discuss DD, but obviously, with lots of subjects related to marital life being discussed, I felt it was by far the best time to raise it.
DeleteI steeled myself to do it, as I didn't know how she would react. I also thought up a list of reasons why it might be good from her perspective. When I discussed it with her, she was very understanding and realised that I didn't find it easy to bring myself to raise the subject with her. She wasn't won over on the spot, but she agreed to think about it. After a few discussions, she agreed to give it a go when the wedding night came. When packing for the honeymoon, I visited an adult store to buy things that would be useful. I mentioned the situation with DD to the store assistant who helped me choose some instruments, which were included with my packing for the honeymoon. We tried out F/M DD on the wedding night. We were happy with things, so it continued through the honeymoon and on into our long-term married life.
Yes, we have fairly traditional gender roles and household dynamics (apart from the F/M DD). The level playing field is definitely a good way of putting it. To my wife, it is a good way of keeping me in check and refining me as a leader.
Is this what you were hoping to know regarding us as conservatives reaching an F/M relationship? Are there any points it would be useful to elaborate on?
Hugh,
DeleteI am very jealous you were able to begin DD on your wedding night. We had planned to do so but it didn’t happen. That is a kind of fairy tale beginning I think many couples would envy. It is very satisfying as a self - identified moderate-liberal talking to a self-identified conservative about DD and agreeing despite the political gulfs between the contrasting world views. But it is not that surprising either because I think the impetus some feel to DD transcend other difference they may have. You were very wise to talk to your wife about DD before marriage. That can be very hard to do for some couples and in truth I think many women need some maturity before they are ready to confront the challenges of Dd or appreciate the many benefits. You were lucky in that sense. Thanks for sharing
Alan
Hi Alan, I have generally eschewed discussing other potentially political subjects here, as we all know they could take the discussion off-message. I suppose this is the practical way of doing things if we want to be drawn together by our shared interest in DD. I suppose the fully ideal way of doing things would be that people are just not shocked or angered by differing viewpoints (not that I am suggesting you are this way) and people would be able to happily discuss things, with people just accepting different viewpoints and focusing on the subject at hand. We can only hope!
DeleteI don't think it is much of a fairy tale. It is something anyone could bring about by being willing to view issues soberly before going down the aisle. As I say, we were encouraged to discuss various issues before then, so as to avoid ugly surprises after getting married, so I can't take all the credit. If pre-marital counsellors encourage open discussion during the engagement, I suppose it creates a climate where couples feel they are able to discuss things, even if they might seem a little weird at the time. The spouses-to-be can also create a climate where if something discussed does turn out to be ridiculous, the other spouse knows they will just leave it in the past and appreciate their gumption in getting it off their chest, making people less risk-averse about what they discuss.
We discussed various things. I said I would not do M/F spanking even if she asked me: our conservative mindset means we were raised with the viewpoint of not striking a female. Of course, we live in a free country, so what happens between consenting adults is up to them, but I never felt the desire. We also agreed some ground rules. For instance, I would let her give however many strikes she wanted with whichever instrument she wanted, but that lingering issues were to be dealt with by DD and not brought up again after DD had been used.
Granted, I felt pain during the wedding night, but it was worth it for the satisfaction of knowing that a line had been drawn under the issues.
Certainly, if I find myself giving premarital counselling, I will look for a way to suggest the idea of F/M DD to the couple and share experiences of how it goes.
What do you mean when you say many women need some maturity before they are ready to confront the challenges of DD or appreciate the benefits? How have you found women's maturity in this area to be lacking?
Hugh,
DeleteI like your ideas about pre-marital counseling and suspect kink aware well trained counselors could accomplish a lot of good.Raising those issues early in a marriage are good but obviously it is even better to open them before marriage.In principle I think it is very wrong and unfair to marry someone without disclosing your abiding kinks -because they will not go away. But in the real world it happens every day too often with disastrous effects for the marriage. Marriage counselors could well be the key to reducing this
Alan
Alan, they may not even need to discuss kink specifically. They can foster a general pragmatic atmosphere of identifying which issues are useful to discuss before getting married, so as to make things easier when the time comes. I don't know how many people who regularly use this forum started DD as early as the wedding night. Not many, I suspect, so I suppose it is never too late. However, I am absolutely certain there was a huge advantage to us in discussing it before the wedding night.
DeleteHow would you go about encouraging not-yet-married couples to discuss this before the wedding night?
“How would you go about encouraging not-yet-married couples to discuss this before the wedding night?” Hugh: The answer to this points to the problem. If I were to answer it now well into our third decade of DD, I would recommend in the strongest terms that before marriage partners receive full disclosure about kinky interests. Even if in the worst case that ends the relationship it saves both partners from much heart break in the future. But I think full disclosure actually in most cases just delivers a dose of cold reality that prepares partners much better for life together. My guess is that kinks blow up relationships much more often when they come as a complete surprise or even shock.
DeleteBut if I were to answer it at a younger age, devoid of much or any DD experience and afraid to lose the person I am deeply in love with – in that situation I would probably avoid the issue as much as possible and even persuade myself that with her I don’t need spanking or it will all work out somehow. This is why I think the kink savvy marriage counselor could make a real difference and I wouldn’t be all that subtle about bringing it up. Third parties can often start conversations that a couple left on their own would find embarrassing or even threatening. And once the topic is out there it’s going to be discussed or at least awareness is going to be raised. It’s hard to see a downside to that approach.
Alan
Alan, I suppose a lot of this depends on how tolerant the spouses are of kinks, and indeed any unusual traits, even if they don't share them. There is only so much premarital counsellors can do to cover specific issues, because there are only so many specific odd things they could practically cover. Maybe they could give the couple a long list of potential things to go through in their own time to see if either of them feel apply to them? However, to my point of view, it is better for premarital counsellors to train the couple in the underlying principles of how to listen to their spouses and respond appropriately, as well as how to bring things up in the best possible way. Granted, covering DD in premarital counselling is great, but I am sure there is a finite amount of time for subjects to cover and I am not sure how many hypothetical subjects might exist.
DeleteIn terms of my kinks, DD is one of them (hence my posts here). However, I have another one that is even more "unusual" that I wouldn't mention in public. I would mention it in one-on-one communications though. Anyway, the skill of the counsellor meant I was able to discuss it with my wife without difficulty.
Dan,
ReplyDeleteJust roughly what proportion of traffic do you think are lurkers?
Alan
Alan, probably 90% or more. For perspective, the blog had 26485 page views last month, and we have maybe 10 people who comment with any regularity.
DeleteHi Dan. This is just a follow up to my post last week. Due to my behavior on vacation, Dev said I was to get 4 spankings when we got home. We got in late Tuesday nite. Nothing was said Wednesday, Thursday or Friday. I thought all was forgotten. On Saturday she said all four would be given that day in four hr intervals. At 10 am she called me into the kitchen where she was sitting holding her monogeny spenser paddle. All she said was “ do you know why I was getting this spanking “? I said yes ma’am got into position and paddling was given. I set my phone to record the sound. It was firm and moderately paced. I looked at the phone and it lasted 7 minutes. It hurt and I rated it a 5. At 2:00 it was the exact same thing. Lasted almost seven minutes but I rated it a 5.5. 6:00 was another carbon copy only my bottom was sore and it was a 6.5. The final one was given at 10 pm. Only this time she was waiting in the living room holding the leather tawse. This has only been used twice and for severe cases. She said we should do this out in the “ woodshed “ but it’s cold here so it was done inside. She told me to take my pants down and bend over the arm of the couch. She asked if I was ready and the whipping began. This was electrifying and not in a good way. One landed a bit high and I jumped up. She said if I moved again she’d start over. I buried my head in a pillow to muffle my screams. When she stopped it only lasted 5 minutes and I rated it an 8.5 ! She smiled and gave me a hug and said all was ok again. These things are very physical and emotionally draining. I went upstairs to lay down. My bottom literally ached , burned and tingled. She came in and said it looked swollen, bruised and lines from the strap clearly visible. She put some lotion on that was cooling and the tingling went away. But very soon after things got warm again Very warm. The lotion was Icy- hot ! I got up to wash it off but most was absorbed and had to wait it out … She expressed interest in a can. I admit I’m intrigued but see what it can do. I’d like to hear everyone’s thoughts and where to get one and size. Well. Thanks for letting me vent and be a small part of your group. Happy Thanksgiving and Seasons Beatings. JR
ReplyDeleteHi JR. Thanks for the update. I hate those times when you think "all was forgotten" and it turns out not so much.
DeleteI can't give much in the way of good advice regarding canes. I am very attracted to them, as a very iconic disciplinary tool, but Anne has never really gravitated toward them. We've tried various types several times. Nine times out of ten, it just didn't hurt very much. There were a couple of times when it did hurt, and on one those occasions it caused a really deep aching feeling that lasted several days. But, that time was really the exception, and I've more or less given up on cane's ever being a big part of our dynamic.
And, btw, I still really envy your woodshed.
Hi JR,
DeleteMy wife loves her canes. Me, not quite as much. We have tried quite a few, all from Cane-IAC. I am sure others are pretty similar, but we have bought them on infrequent trips back to the USA, so it was easier to order more items from a single supplier than to shop around.
My thoughts:
- Rattan works ok, but I like synthetic more since they are indestructible and require no care, soaking, etc.
- Delrin is heavier and hits with more of a thud than Lexan. My wife's favorite cane is the White Delrin Cane Master's Choice SR 30" but I think is a bit on the heavy side.
- We also have a Delrin Cane Master's Choice JR 30", which is a little less thick so consequently lighter, but for some reason my wife doesn't seem to like it so it is seldom used.
- Black Delrin is even heavier than white so I would tend to steer clear of it until you are sure you want it that heavy.
- The "Tear Jerker" Delrin canes are super whippy, so at least the 30" ones are about impossible to control. The shorter ones might be ok?
- I personally think that the Lexan ones are the perfect balance of hard hitting, lots of sting, and still some thud. Also, I think the flex is pretty good and they seem easy enough to control. If I had to choose a single cane, I would get the 30" Lexan cane (from Cane-IAC). It is 3/8" thick, and just seems pretty ideal as far as synthetic canes go.
- One other option if she is a little afraid of using the cane is the 20" Sadistic Red Cane, which is flexible Delrin (probably 1/4" I am guessing) covered with a thin rubber hose. It is super easy to control since it is shorter, and I can certainly tell you that it stings and burns.
-ZM
Dan,
ReplyDeleteYou said, "Regarding your "mean Carol" thought about barring your husband from camping, only you can decide who that would fly and whether it would be good or bad for your relationship. For me, that one would cause some major, major resentment..."
Well, hubby must ask for permission for something like a camping outing with his friends. He also must ask for permission for other things. He recently asked for permission to go to a function the men's club was having and I said "yes". That's the way DD in our marriage grew to be a FLR. He must seek permission. I need none. I could tell him "no camping" but he does so much for me I wouldn't (unless he was really being punished for something serious). I had an idea to say "no" to get his reaction, but it would be cruel to toy with his emotions like that. I was thinking about it briefly because his reaction should be "Yes Carol" but dropped the idea. Dan, he doesn't have it so bad lol. He'll be playing golf this weekend. The following weekend he's home. He might be assigned the task of rearranging the pantry and our kitchen items to be more efficient. That work task reminds him I'm boss at home.
Carol H.
This does remind me about a topic a while back discussing the differences between a DD and an FLR.We have a DD relationship and apparently some others evolve to FLR while others remain DD. This is stating the obvious but what makes it interesting is that the decision to move it into a full FLR seems to fall mainly to the wife -not ignoring the reality many makes are happy to go there too. So my wife could institute an FLR if she wanted ( she doesn't) simply by extending her authority into areas of our life she does not exercise tha authority. If she made asking for permission to go golfing disciplinary I would sooner or later begin to ask. This isn't something I want. But it is a reality tha goes with real DD
DeleteAlan
Hi Alan,
Delete"...the decision to move it into a full FLR seems to fall mainly to the wife...So my wife could institute an FLR if she wanted ( she doesn't) simply by extending her authority into areas of our life she does not exercise that authority." - Excellent observation, and completely true, at least for me. Generally the husband (in the F/M dynamic) is motivated to some degree by an underlying kink. For me, the need is for my wife to have and to exercise authority over me by punishing me. So it is more her choosing to exercise her authority that turns me on than the resultant spanking. Because it is her having authority that turns me on, I am basically powerless to stop her from expanding the scope of that authority. In theory, of course I could stop it, but the reality is that I wouldn't because her flexing her muscle in that way is a huge kick for me. And ironically, if I didn't want to expand the scope and she did, her going ahead and doing it anyway over my objections would be even more of a turn on, so I just couldn't see myself ever trying to resist it.
We also don't have an FLR, but the reason we don't have one is ENTIRELY because she doesn't want one, and my feelings are irrelevant because I wouldn't act on them.
-ZM
ZM,
DeleteAll of this raises another question and that is why some women do move to a full spectrum FLR and others don’t. The generous women who have contributed to this blog seem to be well represented in both groups. It would be interesting to hear from them why they did or did not move to full FLR. In our relationship our complementary personalities have just made it natural for one or the other to take the lead depending on the circumstances, That combined with me being very interested in female led discipline and her being ( at least) equally interested in being a disciplinarian – has anchored us in the DD end of the spectrum – but not completely. She has the authority to expand what is disciplinary and she hasn’t been shy about that when she feels strongly about something. Obeying her when she does that now seems like the most natural thing in the world
Alan
Hi Alan,
DeleteMy wife was initially very much against it ever transitioning to an FLR, probably mostly since she likes the way our relationship works. We truly are a team, and we make most every decision of consequence together, generally deferring to the one who is more knowledgeable about each particular topic.
Another thing that she was careful about - especially in the beginning - was that she didn't want this whole thing to be too all-consuming and for it to define our relationship. I think this fear has diminished as we have done it for almost 6 years, and while it is certainly something that makes our relationship at least somewhat unique, it by no means defines our relationship. And while we talk about it quite a lot, actual DD activities take up at most 1-2% of our time together, and usually significantly less than that.
Now she is starting to realize that she can use DD to her benefit, rather than just to work on things that are important to me. Over time, I would not be surprised if it were to drift more to the FLR side than it currently is, but I doubt that it will ever make it to what I consider to be a truly female led relationship.
-ZM
Relationships are nuanced phenomena ,are they not.
DeleteAlan
"Now she is starting to realize that she can use DD to her benefit, rather than just to work on things that are important to me. Over time, I would not be surprised if it were to drift more to the FLR side than it currently is, but I doubt that it will ever make it to what I consider to be a truly female led relationship."
DeleteRealizing that DD benefited her and that she could use it to equalize the power in the relationship definitely was a turning point for my wife. Regarding the degree of FLR in the relationship, it waxes and wanes, and I find that my desire for it varies very substantially over time. With DD, my desire for it goes up and down, but it is rare that it being exercised causes me to have a real aversion to it. I don't like the spankings, but I don't have an emotional aversion to them that makes me want to give the whole thing up. FLR is different. While there are times I think I really want it, when the reality hits there are times I very much resent being bossed or controlled. Sometimes it is sexy after the fact, but sometimes it's not. In some ways, that's difficult and not fair to her, because I know I send mixed signals regarding my level of interest.
“While there are times I think I really want it, when the reality hits there are times I very much resent being bossed or controlled. Sometimes it is sexy after the fact, but sometimes it's not”
DeleteI think this happens at least occasionally for most alpha males subject to domestic discipline, But for me and it sounds like for you, it does not happen when she combines control with threatened or actual spanking. Even when I resent an impending spanking those feeling are gone almost without exception before the spanking is over. That is not always the case if corporal punishment or its threat and the eroticism it releases are not part of the control
Alan
Alan, I think that's right. I also think that my personality simply handles after-the-fact consequences better than it handles proactive control or direction. I really do have a very, very strong resistance to most authority. For some reason--perhaps in part the eroticism and its releases that you referenced--spankings (threatened or actual) don't really trigger it. But, being told not to do, or to stop doing, something that I very much want to do definitely can trigger big feelings of resentment.
DeleteBy the way, your comment was flagged as spam, which is why it took a while for it to post.
“I really do have a very, very strong resistance to most authority”
DeleteI strongly relate to that feeling as well -- so much so, that there have been times (more than a few) when that resistance has hurt me professionally or socially. It is not something I am particularly proud of (it’s actually rather obviously immaturity). Nor do I really understand its origins. I have not been particularly victimized by someone abusing their authority, but it is what it is and I have learned to live with it.
But then the paradox: when a women holding -or in close proximity to - a hairbrush (or reasonable facsimile), exercise her authority over me -- that all goes away. More than goes away, I love the way it makes me feel. Regrettably I don’t believe in magic, but given my deeply felt resistance to authority, that seems magical. Maybe you should do a topic on this someday
Alan
I too have been hurt myself professionally because of resistance to authority, and also temper. There is no doubt that it kept me from being seriously considered for certain positions, and the decision-makers did, in fact, attribute it to immaturity. I recognize that some of it was immaturity and lack of self-control, though there is/was a positive side to it too. I was known for standing up to bullies regardless of their title. When I left my last gig several people commented on my "integrity" and that I tried to do the right thing even if it cost me personally. Like pretty much every other personal attribute, I think resistance to authority can be good but also can cross a line.
DeleteI have suspicions about the origins of my attitudes about authority. I lost my biological father at a young age, which I think gave me a (sometimes dysfunctional) sense of being responsible for myself and others, to the point that I would almost always reject authority if it conflicted with that I thought should be done. My step-father was also a huge anti-authoritarian -- even more so than I am. I am sure there was some unconscious modeling going on there.
And, you're right, something about a strong woman in authority, especially one threatening punishment, short-circuits my usually hard-wired authority issues. I am far more mystified by that aspect than about how I got those authority issues. I don't have a clue why DD was so powerful to me when I discovered it. It wasn't anything I saw in my home growing up or even knew existed until I was in my 30s.
“…something about a strong woman in authority, especially one threatening punishment, short-circuits my usually hard-wired authority issues. …. I don't have a clue why DD was so powerful to me when I discovered it. It wasn't anything I saw in my home growing up or even knew existed until I was in my 30s. “
DeleteExperience with being in a DD relationship, plus numerous discussions, many on this blog, have helped me understand “how” it works --by eroticizing authority as Danielle has so insightfully described it. That’s the process and the term “short circuits” that you used nails it. Eroticizing female authority activates the male sexual instinct which some evolutionary biologists believe is stronger that the will to life – so we are talking about some pretty potent psychology here.
But why spanking in the context of female led domestic discipline (i.e. the original DWC) is so strong is a deep mystery. And the fact that reaction to disciplinary female authority is so relatively wide spread among males pulls me toward biology or evolution for the ultimate answer. It’s almost a cliché to say that spanking is “hard wired” in us but I don’t have a better answer. Not all but many folks report their interest/fascination with spanking started pre- puberty. That itself is rather amazing
Alan
I never really understood the "hard wired" phenomenon, and I still don't, but it's plainly real. The author of Sex With Shakespeare talks about how her interest in spanking rose in pre-puberty and that for her, spanking *is* sex; it is the core sexual act and not just some fun kink. I still don't quite get it, since I'm the outlier with little if any early spanking interest, but it was great getting her perspective on the drive for those for whom it really is hard wired.
Delete“I would also say I am hard wired!”
DeleteMe too! But hard wired for what? Discussions on this blog have persuaded me that it is not spanking per se but the exercise of female authority linked to spanking that is the trigger. In other words we are hard wired to respond to female disciplinary authority in an erotic context. If that is true it has to be due to some sort of evolutionary “adaption” which improved reproductive “fitness” in our ancestors. But how would submission to female authority exercised in an erotic context improve fitness. I realize I am getting a little deep in the weeds here, but this would be a fascinating research hypothesis for an evolutionary biologist.
Alan
"In other words we are hard wired to respond to female disciplinary authority in an erotic context." But, I think there is an obvious issue with that theory: There seems to be little reason to think that being hard-wired to respond favorably to female disciplinary authority is a trait held by any but a small minority of the male population. In fact, for almost all societies throughout all of documented human history, males have been in charge. Yes, there are exceptions, but it is few and far between, and I see zero evidence that female disciplinary authority is now or ever has been a widespread phenomenon. If anything, it would seem me that the available data suggests that being wired to respond to female authority is *disfavored* from an evolutionary perspective.
DeleteAlso, I won't go into this in much depth, but for me it seems to be the "authority" and "discipline" parts of the "female disciplinary authority" combination that are most important. I am heterosexual and in a heterosexual relationship, but I admit that I also have some attraction to the idea of being disciplined by another male. As with my attraction to DD in general, it is kind of a morbid attraction that I am sure would be extremely embarrassing if it were ever to happen, but that actually feeds some of the attraction. Yes, I gravitate more toward female discipline, but the female part doesn't seem to be an absolutely necessary part of the prescription for me.
I appreciate the points about non-conventional behaviors being under-reported, but let's say reporting is off by 100%, or 200%, or 300% . . . what does that actually add up to and how does it compare to the percentage of the population in either "conventional" or M/f dominance relationships? Same with the number of men seeking F/m dominance relationships. It's undoubtedly significant but is it large enough to suggest an evolutionary adaptation, particularly when compared the number of those *not* seeking such relationships?
DeleteSometime ago, I did find a PhD thesis paper specifically devoted to a study of DD. It had some interesting content, though it was more a study of available sources (including the DWC) and some interviews. It was not based on any real statistical surveys. Happy to email it to you if you're interested.
Dan,
DeleteKeep in mind that evolutionary adaptions may be limited to a relatively small share of the population. Some do universalize but many are niche adaptions. The environment determines whether an adaption survives, thrives or becomes extinct. Most fall in the middle of that spectrum somewhere and some apparently can on and on as long as they don't significantly erode firmness. So just hypothetically sometime in the primordial evolutionary past, eroticism triggered by the exercise of authority may have evolved as an adaption because the environment at that time favored it.
But now it is more or less neutral as to fitness but the genes keep getting passed on. Or another hypothetical in the far future: a feminine dominated world has now evolved and men who respond to the exercise of female authority thrive) and get to pass their genes on)
The point of both of these hypotheticals is that adaptions are both caused and strongly react to the prevailing environment
ZM, others...
ReplyDelete"All of this raises another question and that is why some women do move to a full spectrum FLR and others don’t. It would be interesting to hear from them why they did or did not move to full FLR."
I'll avoid the details of my FLR. It pushes the limits of the blog. I don't want to do that. We have our fun but in when hubby is in trouble I don't go easy on him when he's disciplined. I use a paddle or a cane. His whole demeanor changes when he sees me holding the cane. I try to be fair though, and I also believe in alternate discipline. My husband asked me to consider a FLR. I really believe my husband feels my guidance has been positive. Obviously he is driven by underlying kink. He is not the same person he was a few years ago. Hubby is more organized and goal oriented. He was advanced several time in his and feels more successful and satisfied. DD might achieve the same thing, but he wanted something more formal. A FLR gives us some added intimacy. I don't know why some women will agree to an FLR and others won't. Our house has never been cleaner by the way lol.
Carol H.
Hi Carol,
DeleteA Question:
“DD might achieve the same thing, but he wanted something more formal. A FLR gives us some added intimacy.”
I am very aware of the intimacy that comes from domestic discipline. Increased Intimacy, sometimes intense, is probably the biggest surprise for me that has come from DD. Just intuitively one doesn’t expect those feelings toward someone who punishes you, sometimes severely. But there is something about DD, maybe the vulnerability it requires or the trust that is necessary or the communication it fosters – but whatever it is DD does build intimacy, not just during or after a disciplinary experience but day to day. But how does a full FLR increase the intimacy? What does it add to the intimacy of DD?
Anonymous,
DeleteI'll keep my answer general because the blog is intended more for DD. Also, I don't want to reveal intimate details. A FLR provides us with added intimacy, structure for him, and even naughty fun. We communicate well and regularly. We are open to new things and can be a little experimental. I enjoy the power I hold and my hubby enjoys keeping me happy. He told me he feels different, in a good way, from many guy friends and coworkers. He has a hard job and he enjoys coming home and taking a more submissive role. My husband has a tough task master waiting at home (me) though I'm not always so tough. Sometimes he never knows what to expect. So a good level of trust exists between us. That keeps it exciting and adds intimacy.
Carol H.