Monday, September 27, 2021

The Club - Meeting 385 - Alternative Punishments

"Obedience of the law is demanded; not asked as a favor.” - Theodore Roosevelt

 

Hello all.  Welcome back to the Disciplinary Couples Club.  Our weekly gathering of men and women who are in, or would like to be in, Domestic Discipline relationships.  I hope you had a good week.

 

Here, it's finally starting to feel like Fall has arrived, which makes me happy.  Red and yellow foliage.  Crisp morning air.  Oktoberfest and all that entails.

 

 

Mine was sort of – meh.  Not a lot happening, good or bad.  That in itself is kind of a problem.  Work used to keep so busy, I didn’t have time for much else, and I fantasized about all those things I’d do if I had more time. Now I have more time, yet I’m finding I still don’t get all that much done on an average day.  It’s amazing how much time gets chewed up with a few dog walks, working out, mowing the grass, running a few errands, etc. I’m finding that in some ways, leisure and adventure actually require more proactivity, more planning, than work ever did.  At work, a lot of my daily activity just kind of happened, and many of my priorities were set for me.  Leisure and adventure, by contrast, happen only with some actual effort to overcome inertia and get out of the status quo.

 

  

It was a good discussion last week. Though, there were times it seemed like people were talking past each other.  Part of it may be fault.  Perhaps I should have defined “zero tolerance,” but given the context of the specific questions—which all focused on whether particular issues are or might be punished without exception—I didn’t really think I needed to. Yet, I got the impression some commenters were focused on zero tolerance not with respect to a particular issue but, rather, as punishing anything and everything and, on that basis, objected to the whole concept.  Others focused on timing, i.e. not putting off a spanking when “real life” intercedes, though that seems to me to be a separate issue.

 

Personally, although I fully agree that zero tolerance can’t and probably shouldn’t be applied to all issues, I still think it may have a constructive role to play with respect to particular behaviors or failures that are particularly important to the disciplinarian or the recipient.  I got to thinking about it a few days before writing last week’s post because I was frustrated with myself over one particular ongoing behavior issue.  Actually, it really is one single aspect of one behavior, but it’s one that always seems to have an outsized negative influence.  It got me thinking that while I have a lousy record addressing some big issues, it may be possible to zone in on that one aspect of the issue that causes most of the problems or, more precisely, to ask Anne for additional focus—to the point of zero-tolerance—on that one sliver of the overall behavior.  It’s basically the Domestic Discipline version of the “80/20 Rule,” which I can characterize from a couple of different angles, namely “80% of my problems extend from 20% of my behavior” or “80% of our results come from 20% of our efforts.”

 

In the midst of talking about all this, ZM unknowingly suggested this week’s topic:

 

"And others have mentioned the difficulty of making punishments happen in the midst of busy lives, lack of privacy, etc. I think the answer to this could be found by exploring the use of alternative punishments as necessary. "There is going to be a consequence, and I can't spank you now or soon, so instead...""

 

As I noted, in the past probably the only topic we've talked about here that seems to meet more resistance than "zero tolerance" is “alternative punishments.”  I’ve never quite understood why, though it may be as simple as many of our commenters are highly into spanking and  only somewhat tangentially into discipline writ large.  Well, be that as it may, I’m going to give it another try.

 

In her comments last week, Danielle described an incident in which Wayne kept talking over her and their dinner guests, to the point that she had finally had it with him.  In her words: 

 

“I lost it because Wayne had ignored so many previous warnings . . . I made a real scene, yelling at Wayne for about a solid minute. At the end of my rant, Wayne was red faced and speechless. The other couple were dumbstruck too.  . . . Once we were alone, I ordered Wayne to pull down his pants, and I gave him several licks with the heavy strap, swinging it with the full force of my anger. Then I sent him to bed in the guest room.

 

While it could fall under a topic of “lecturing” or “scolding,” I also see Danielle’s “scene” in front of witnesses as a form of alternative punishment. (Or, since she spanked him too, perhaps in this case it would be categorized as “complementary” form of punishment.) And, it was a form of punishment that not only worked but seemed to work better than the spanking.  Glenmore concurred: “I agree with you 100% Dan, my wife scolding me in front of our friends was way more effective than a spanking to cure me of this habit, although the threat of a spanking still adds more weight to it.”

 

Like ZM, I’ve always been intrigued by alternatives to spanking.  I think there are two primary reasons for that interest. First, I see them as a kind of “zero tolerance” or “whatever it takes” tool that a wife could keep in her arsenal of spanking isn’t getting the job done.   

 

 

Second, as readers here know, I’ve always had a thing for “maternal” discipline, and many of the most common options for we talk about for “alternative” punishments coincidentally are those some of us experienced as kids. In fact, Danielle did a great job of summarizing some of them when responding to one of my posts about maternal discipline several months ago:

 

So, WHAT IF Anne pushed the adult/minor dynamic to its logical conclusion. She has already taken a step in that direction by assigning you chores and warning you not to forget to lock the doors under threat of being spanked. But if she really wants to exercise her authority in a “maternal” way, I think she should consider deploying the full range of disciplinary tools adults employ with minors. In other words, in addition to spankings, she could consider consequences like grounding, loss of privileges, early bedtimes, etc. She could also consider limiting your personal discretionary spending by putting you on an allowance which could be suspended for disciplinary purposes as she deems appropriate. She could impose curfews and require you to get her permission if you wanted to go out for drinks after work. From what you have said previously, I believe you would find those auxiliary measures more truly humbling and embarrassing than simply having your bottom paddled.

 

Let’s push the parent/minor analogy a step farther. If you were really a minor, there would be no reason for Anne to hide her authoritarian status from other people. So, if I was Anne, I would probably let some select group of people (maybe certain friends or family members) in on the secret that she wields real authority over you and expects you to obey her. Speaking to you in an authoritative way in the presence of certain people would certainly humble you, wouldn’t it? Then, if the people were curious, that could lead on to her revealing to them that she disciplines you, and maybe even to spanking you in front of a willing witness, as others have suggested.

 

So, with one comment from months ago, Danielle hit on a whole bunch of issues relevant to last week and this week’s topics and others that have come up a lot lately: doing what it takes to effect the change you want; public displays of authority; letting others know about the disciplinary relationship; and, a nice list of punishments that might complement spankings or be an alternative to them if the spankings aren’t working.

 

 

Are there non-spanking punishments you use or that are used on you?  Are there particular offenses they are used for?  Do they work as well as spankings?  Perhaps better?  Are there particular punishments you haven’t used or experience but would like to explore?

 

Have a great week.

128 comments:

  1. Not sure if it qualified as a punishment , but my wife will sometimes order me to give her a lengthy foot massage .Obviously enjoyable for her but not unpleasant for me, other than the fact she insists it continue for longer than I would like .
    She will lecture or scold me as I massage and corrects me if I do not put enough effort into it.
    She has also combined this with a spanking afterwards on occasion.

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    1. Hi Glenmore,
      My wife has never ordered massage as a punishment per se, though we often use massage (mostly back) as the stakes when we are betting on games or things like that. Also, she likes to include "services" - which includes things such as massage - into times that we play around with domination.

      The fact that your wife makes you continue longer than you want to, scolds you while you are doing it, and has even combined it with spanking before would pretty well move it into the category of punishment in my book.

      -ZM

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    2. I agree with ZM on this one. Further, I really hate any form of "service" domination, and I have no foot fetish, so I'm sure that being forced to give a foot massage would feel to me like a punishment.

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    3. I wouldn't say I hate it but it is more of a chore ....and she knows it !

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  2. “doing what it takes to effect the change you want; public displays of authority; letting others know about the disciplinary relationship; and, a nice list of punishments that might complement spankings or be an alternative to them if the spankings aren’t working.”
    For me, this is the bottom line and Danielle several times has nailed it by linking the effectiveness of alternative punishments, public displays of authority, etc., to eroticism. Where guys apparently differ is whether and to what degree spanking is necessary to make discipline effective. For many guys it is a woman exercising her authority to discipline, that pulls the erotic pin for us.
    Apparently that’s enough for some without it being backed up by spanking or the credible threat of spanking. But for others (like me) that authority needs to be backed up by the credible threat of spanking if we are defiant or disobedient of that authority.
    There is one important caveat to all this. The difference among guys (the importance of spanking in the disciplinary arsenal) probably becomes smaller and smaller as relationships become longer.
    After many years together I can predict with more than 90 percent accuracy when my wife will spank me and so she needs to actually do it less and less. So when she gives me a direct command it is both erotic as hell and very effective as discipline. And she doesn’t need to spank me or even threaten to spank because I know she will spank if I disobey and so I won’t disobey. In a newer relationship, there is a lot more testing of authority (at least it was for me). And maybe a disciplinarian is more sensitive to those challenges early on and ready to confront them.
    In a mature relationship (we are well into our second decade of DD), a punishment spanking should not need to happen very often. Since Covid, preventive spankings have been suspended since the 2019 holidays. So I was spanked exactly twice in 2020 and only three times this year (two in the same week). That compares with (I’m estimating) one or more a week our first couple of years.
    Time alone cements the expectations and once punishment is accepted and expected, the need for it declines.
    Alan

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    1. Hi Alan,
      Last evening I wrote a reply to this, and after writing it (possibly the most coherent thing I have ever written, but now we will never know!) I clicked "publish" and there was an error and it was forever lost.

      "Danielle several times has nailed it by linking the effectiveness of alternative punishments, public displays of authority, etc., to eroticism. Where guys apparently differ is whether and to what degree spanking is necessary to make discipline effective. For many guys it is a woman exercising her authority to discipline, that pulls the erotic pin for us." - I think the link to eroticism is where much of the power of DD comes from for me. My wife can use non-spanking punishments, but if she were to rely to heavily on punishments that have no erotic element for me at all, I fear that I might resent the punishments. For me, it is as you so eloquently said "a woman exercising her authority to discipline" that provides the erotic component. However, for me spanking is the ultimate manifestation of that authority. The fact that she has the ability to spank me at any time and immediately cause pain and remorse is the bedrock of her authority. In other words, she can use other things, but pretty much spanking or the threat of spanking must at least most of the time be a part of punishments she gives.

      "Time alone cements the expectations and once punishment is accepted and expected, the need for it declines." - So very true. I was thinking through some of the times my wife has given me punishment spankings (where she is very irritated or angry about something I did or because of my attitude) and it is surprising just how few punishment spankings I have gotten, and those were more frequent as we were beginning DD. Now, she spanks me quite often, but usually this is discipline flowing out of our weekly check-ins, and the spankings are not as long and hard and are meant mostly to be reminders to motivate me to try harder.

      -ZM

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    2. Hi Alan,
      Twice I have written responses to your message, but they keep getting deleted by system errors. In retrospect, I think they were probably the best comments I ever wrote, but now we will never know since they are lost forever, hahahaha.

      "Danielle several times has nailed it by linking the effectiveness of alternative punishments, public displays of authority, etc., to eroticism. Where guys apparently differ is whether and to what degree spanking is necessary to make discipline effective. For many guys it is a woman exercising her authority to discipline, that pulls the erotic pin for us." - Much if not most of the reason that DD is so powerful is because of its inherent eroticism (for me at least). And the most erotic part of DD for me is what you so eloquently called "a woman exercising her authority to discipline." Her exercising her authority is what I find so compelling, but spanking is the most tangible and ultimate manifestation of this authority; at any time, she can cause immediate and lasting physical pain and profound humbling. She can use any number of alternative punishments, but the most powerful is when she combines these additional punishments with spanking or at least the threat of spanking.

      And I agree totally about the diminishing need for punishment spankings over time. While in the beginning punishment spankings were more frequent, they are now surprisingly rare. I do get a fair number of discipline spankings that flow from our weekly check-ins, but these are much shorter and less severe.

      -ZM

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    3. You may have once again been the victim of Blogger's unbelievably crappy spam filtering changes. I'm still finding comments flagged as spam for no reason. What I really can't fathom is it often will let two or three comments through from one commenter, then randomly send to spam a another message from that same commenter! It makes no sense at all. And, for some reason it seems to pay particular attention to comments from you and Danielle.

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    4. Has anyone noticed that the world has all gone to hell – at the exact same time that I.T. has begun to take over the world? I know that correlation is not causation –but still…
      Alan

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    5. "So when she gives me a direct command it is both erotic as hell and very effective as discipline." It works the same way for me, though I find that in the moment being bossed around actually annoys me (a lot), but it becomes sexy in retrospect.

      I agree with your observation about how a high-tech world doesn't seem to be working out so great on some fronts. I have a meme on that subject that I'll post along with the next topic.

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    6. Hi Dan,
      I do notice that my messages get flagged a lot. And it doesn't seem to matter if I write a lot one week or hardly at all. Perhaps it has something to do with IP addresses, since I live in the fraud-ridden, very corrupt reaches of the Balkans?

      -ZM

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    7. That's possible, though given how many people use VPNs, Tor, etc.,I wouldn't be surprised if *most* of our traffic is coming from some corrupt area of the Balkans!

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  3. For me parental, non-sexual, discipline is the best model for domestic discipline and, realistically, makes it pretty simple. What methods do typical parents use? Not counting just verbal criticism, most appear to fit into a loss of privileges like grounding, curfews, bedtimes, limiting activities or allowance… or physical impositions like extra chores, corner-time, mouth-soaping (not for me), having to write lines or an essay, or drum roll please… spanking. If that isn't enough options, then what kind of mess are we dealing with?

    The most important thing to me is that I don't have to ask for discipline. My parents mostly used spanking and the threat of it, and that kept things pretty much in check in our house, and without the need for frequent punishments. The threat made for good listening. A wife who only spanks could be perfect for me, but if she chooses to use other parental-type alternatives, they could also be effective. Not as embarrassing to me, but still pretty humbling. As long as it's kept within what I perceive as parental boundaries. Making punishment public outside the home would be stretching it, as it would not be the same for an adult as for a child, but I do see the appeal.

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    1. Hi Brett,
      For me, like you, Dan, and others, DD often has a quite maternal feel. The maternal feel comes not so much from how I view her, since even during DD she still seems like my loving wife, just quite a bit less forgiving and easy going than usual... However, during times of discipline or punishment, I feel a lot like a naughty little boy, and she also treats me that way and to a certain degree temporarily views me that way.

      So why not just stick with parental type alternative punishments, since the whole thing feels kind of maternal anyway, and as you pointed out, "if that isn't enough options, then what kind of mess are we dealing with?"

      The answer for me is twofold. First, one of the best things about DD (especially spanking) is that it brings closure quickly and harmony is restored, whereas many/most of the traditional alternative punishments stretch over longer times, like days or weeks. For some, these long-term punishments could work well, but for me it is just as likely to breed resentment.

      Secondly, even though the overall tone of DD is somewhat maternal for me, unlike parental spankings DD also has clear erotic undertones. It might feel a bit maternal, and we may even try to make it feel more that way, but in the end, the reality is that it is not a parent punishing a child but rather a spouse or partner punishing an adult that they love romantically who happened to act like a child. So why not capitalize on the reality and do more things that push the "somewhat erotic" buttons?

      Last time we talked about alternative punishments, I summed up how I feel about them in this way, and as I reread it, my feelings are still the same, so I will repost it here: "For example, it could be mouthsoaping, strapping of hands, pegging, enemas, figging, nettles, or any number of extremely humiliating (embarrassing or humbling for those who prefer those terms) and uncomfortable activities. In this way, we still get the rapid closure that we prefer, but the embarrassing memories linger in my mind and the pain lingers in my bottom long enough for some real change to happen. Also, as I mentioned earlier, much of the reason DD is so powerful for ME is because it plays to my fantasies, so generally very physical punishments and extreme humiliations generally resonate a lot more with me than other more mundane punishments like extra chores or grounding."

      So at least for me, I prefer punishments that don't stretch out for days, but they can venture well outside what would be normal for parental punishments. But of course, in the end, that is just me, and I totally understand why others feel differently. The most important thing is that as we discuss things with each other, we can learn better about ourselves, and hopefully find exactly what is best for us!

      -ZM

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    2. By the way, I am in absolute agreement with you that the most important thing is to not have to ask for discipline. For me it simply MUST feel imposed.

      "Making punishment public outside the home would be stretching it, as it would not be the same for an adult as for a child, but I do see the appeal." - Again, I am largely on the same page, though I am not sure it would be stretching it for me, since I really want this to happen at least once (so I guess I definitely agree on the "see the appeal part)!!"

      You are right that it would not be the same for an adult as for a child. Considering that adults are expected to have agency in their own lives, and since being self-disciplined and responsible are pretty much the hallmarks of being an adult, being punished in front of someone - or even having someone know that you are punished for misbehavior - would be much more embarrassing; adults are not supposed to require extrinsic motivation to do things right, and of course unless you are in a nudist colony, it would always be beyond awkward for others to see your naked body, whether they see the most private parts or not. So having others see any skin not normally exposed may be a bit embarrassing, but go to a beach or watch a movie. As a society, we are not exactly all that shy about exposed skin.

      On the first part of the embarrassment of being spanked as an adult - that adults are supposed to be responsible and shouldn't need punishment - I agree that it feels that way, but I simply don't think it is all that logical. After all, our entire lives are full of extrinsic motivations. Your boss gives you a raise for doing great work, or perhaps docks you a days pay or reassigns you to some less glamorous task for doing something wrong. Policemen stand ready (much TOO ready) to give you tickets for speeding or driving aggressively. The credit card company adds a late charge. Your bank hits you with a huge overdraft fee for having $.02 too little in your account. And so on and so on. In fact, there is nothing unusual about adults being punished for being irresponsible, as it happens all the time in all facets of life!

      So I think it is the fact that it is your spouse punishing you that society has a hard time accepting. If you are a female, spanked by your male spouse, then he is probably abusive. If you are a male, spanked by your female spouse, then you are weak and she is a bitch, though I am not sure how that works... We seem to be trying so hard to break all gender role stereotypes, but I guess somehow all those stereotypes are ok when it comes to DD. And if it is F/F or M/M, then we just don't know exactly what to say about it because all of our normal stereotypes no longer work well for judging it.

      All that is to say, yes it is different for others to see or know about adults being punished than it is for children, but I am not convinced that it necessarily needs to be, except in the case of witnessing, whatever skin the witness happens to see.

      -ZM

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    3. Hi Dan, I posted this before my other comment to Brett, so probably it was flagged as spam again, so feel free to delete this one if the other repost of the comment if the other one is in spam, so the comments will be in the correct order:

      Hi Brett,
      For me, like you, Dan, and others, DD often has a quite maternal feel. The maternal feel comes not so much from how I view her, since even during DD she still seems like my loving wife, just quite a bit less forgiving and easy going than usual... However, during times of discipline or punishment, I feel a lot like a naughty little boy, and she also treats me that way and to a certain degree temporarily views me that way.

      So why not just stick with parental type alternative punishments, since the whole thing feels kind of maternal anyway, and as you pointed out, "if that isn't enough options, then what kind of mess are we dealing with?"

      The answer for me is twofold. First, one of the best things about DD (especially spanking) is that it brings closure quickly and harmony is restored, whereas many/most of the traditional alternative punishments stretch over longer times, like days or weeks. For some, these long-term punishments could work well, but for me it is just as likely to breed resentment.

      Secondly, even though the overall tone of DD is somewhat maternal for me, unlike parental spankings DD also has clear erotic undertones. It might feel a bit maternal, and we may even try to make it feel more that way, but in the end, the reality is that it is not a parent punishing a child but rather a spouse or partner punishing an adult that they love romantically who happened to act like a child. So why not capitalize on the reality and do more things that push the "somewhat erotic" buttons?

      Last time we talked about alternative punishments, I summed up how I feel about them in this way, and as I reread it, my feelings are still the same, so I will repost it here: "For example, it could be mouthsoaping, strapping of hands, pegging, enemas, figging, nettles, or any number of extremely humiliating (embarrassing or humbling for those who prefer those terms) and uncomfortable activities. In this way, we still get the rapid closure that we prefer, but the embarrassing memories linger in my mind and the pain lingers in my bottom long enough for some real change to happen. Also, as I mentioned earlier, much of the reason DD is so powerful for ME is because it plays to my fantasies, so generally very physical punishments and extreme humiliations generally resonate a lot more with me than other more mundane punishments like extra chores or grounding."

      So at least for me, I prefer punishments that don't stretch out for days, but they can venture well outside what would be normal for parental punishments. But of course, in the end, that is just me, and I totally understand why others feel differently. The most important thing is that as we discuss things with each other, we can learn better about ourselves, and hopefully find exactly what is best for us!

      -ZM

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    4. Excellent points, ZM. The specter of crime and punishment doesn't disappear at adulthood. We certainly don't become perfect beings. Laws are constantly being broken, personal problems abound and, in the hierarchy of things, someone is likely sitting in judgment, consequences are being exacted. In fact, it seems apparent to me these days that more adults than ever forgot or never learned the basic morality and responsibility most of us were taught growing up, and there also appears to be far less shame in being seen as childish.

      The thing about spanking is that it's not, outside a DD relationship, the way adults are punished in our society. Not only is it associated with childrearing, it's largely condemned as too humiliating for a child. In regard to public nudity, context is everything. It may be irrational, but the exact thing worn at the beach can feel seriously awkward in a court of law. Once we reach an age where we have a great deal of emotional investment in not wanting to be seen as a child, spanking can become a more painful psychological ordeal. The feelings can carry over into adulthood where, despite the nature of a consensual discipline relationship, being spanked as punishment is still the same humiliation.

      Another thing that doesn't disappear when we become adults is irrationality. No matter what I know or tell myself about DD, it will always feel unnatural and embarrassing when parental discipline is applied — nothing at all like getting a speeding ticket or other penalty we as adults accept as a normal way of maintaining order. Other parental punishments normally reserved for children have that humbling impact, but to me not as strong as spanking.

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    5. Hi Brett,
      It is exactly this irrationality that I was referring to, and generally anything irrational drives me crazy (which I guess explains why I am so crazy)! If a girl is wearing the most daring thong bikini at the beach, that is fine and nobody thinks a thing of it, but if you were to inadvertently see a woman in her underwear, even if it is the most conservative ever, that is somehow taboo.

      I agree also about the psychology of spanking, that it can be emotionally trying. I hadn't thought about the emotional investment in not wanting to be seen as a child, but that certainly seems true enough.

      -ZM

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    6. "Considering that adults are expected to have agency in their own lives, and since being self-disciplined and responsible are pretty much the hallmarks of being an adult, being punished in front of someone - or even having someone know that you are punished for misbehavior - would be much more embarrassing." I do think this is a big part of the mystique for me around witnesses. I'm not sure that being spanked in front of witnesses in a purely erotic setting -- like at a spanking party -- would really embarrass me all that much. I think that what makes the spanking as an adult in front of another adult in a DD context so embarrassing is that it reinforces both that you are *not* a fully autonomous adult and also reinforces in front of someone else that you are the lower party in the pecking order.

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    7. I also think that being spanked in front of witnesses in a purely erotic setting would not really do all that much for me.

      "I think that what makes the spanking as an adult in front of another adult in a DD context so embarrassing is that it reinforces both that you are *not* a fully autonomous adult and also reinforces in front of someone else that you are the lower party in the pecking order." - Agreed. Especially on the second point. I think that is much of why I find it so morbidly fascinating.

      -ZM

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    8. "I think that what makes the spanking as an adult in front of another adult in a DD context so embarrassing is that it reinforces both that you are *not* a fully autonomous adult and also reinforces in front of someone else that you are the lower party in the pecking order."

      Husband would agree with you here. Dan. He says while he is humbled at events and parties, because there are other people there getting spanked, he's not as humbled. On the other hand, he's the focus when it's just us two or us two and witnesses. Since I encourage comments from the witnesses, it can be really humbling and it does remind him he has to respect certain restrictions I've put on him (no pornography, for instance), even if we aren't full time FLR. The witnesses frequently remind husband he has to obey his wife or look what happens to him, he gets dressed up, paraded in front of witnesses and they get to see him in a "compromizing position", treated like a naughty child and he gets this because his wife says so.

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    9. Hi Miss Cecilia,
      That totally makes sense about why being spanked at an event would be less embarrassing or humbling. If it is just him being spanked in front of a witness (or several), all the focus is entirely on him and whatever he did to get himself in this predicament. Also I would expect (having never been to any sort of spanking/BDSM/fetish event or party of any sort) that it all feels quite a bit more like play there, regardless of what the purported reason for punishment might be.

      -ZM

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    10. Bad_boy_G_punished_by_Z, lots of interesting points.

      My wife and I never had much urge to do public punishments, as we took the view that DD spanking, even when it fulfils its purpose a punishment, is still an intimate act. This doesn't mean we criticise anyone else if they want to do it in public, but it just never appealed to us.

      Fully agreed with the idea of punishments being the consequences of wrongdoing. Also, natural punishments (as well as formal punishments) follow when we do something wrong or don't do something we should, e.g. when the success of a business is compromised because we didn't do the work, acted fraudulently or whatever.

      Regarding stereotypes, yes, they are bad. However, regarding the MF vs. FM comparison, I suppose some people find FM DD spanking more palatable, because men tend to be stronger than women on average, so we assume that if a man is spanked, he is entirely willing. This may not always be the case though, which is why stereotypes are bad: things need to be considered on their own merits.

      Agreed on the part about bringing closure quickly. This is more or less the whole point of DD spankings!

      I asked my wife about your points and she said she didn't see DD spankings as something that would ever be maternal. She says she also accepted that, even if they 100% fulfilled their punitive purpose, DD spankings would have erotic overtones and didn't see the point of fighting this. She says that with the interactions a husband and wife typically have, she doesn't see how it could feel like a parent-child relationship. Obviously, her answers only pertain to us, so maybe it varies with others?

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    11. “I asked my wife about your points and she said she didn't see DD spankings as something that would ever be maternal”

      I agree with her but it can be complicated and an issue many women seem to raise as an objection to using spanking as in “I don’t want to be your mother”. Superficially there are elements of maternal discipline in female led DD. But the reality of a DD relationship is very different.

      DD is a boy-girl relationship, not mother-son and it is sexual and adult which is not part of any maternal dynamic

      DD is also consensual. If your wife or girlfriend disciplines you, presumably you are consenting to it at the very least – and for some guys, you are almost begging for it. Not much maternal about that.

      The maternal issue in female led DD keeps coming up probably from people that are not in -- or have not been in an actual DD relationship. It probably does much harm because it can inhibit couples from experimenting with DD. So the more that women like your wife tell it like it is, the better for all

      Alan

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    12. Alan, I must disagree with the last part of your comment, and I'm a little surprised by it. I am one of the people who keep bringing up maternal aspects of DD, and I am certainly "in an actual DD relationship." Similarly, the masthead on the original DWC website that inspired so many try this lifestyle in the first place proclaims that it is/was about discipline with a maternal aspect: "The Disciplinary Wives Club (DWC) is an organization whose purpose is to encourage the application of "Good Old Fashioned" spanking and other very traditional methods of discipline by wives and committed partners. It is our experience that the vast majority of relationships that have a maternal discipline orientation are truly happy, healthy and long lasting."

      You're obviously entitled to your own opinion regarding whether DD relationships should have a maternal aspect, but I don't agree at all with your characterization that people who find the maternal element appealing aren't in real DD relationships.

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    13. Hugh, Alan, and Dan,
      I guess I must be a natural peacemaker, because I can simultaneously agree with all three of you, or at least on many of your points!

      "...which is why stereotypes are bad: things need to be considered on their own merits" - exactly true. Stereotypes are OFTEN correct, which is why they exist in the first place. But often is a whole lot different than always...

      "She says she also accepted that, even if they 100% fulfilled their punitive purpose, DD spankings would have erotic overtones and didn't see the point of fighting this." - This is certainly true for me, and probably for most people here. However, Some regular posters on here say that they do DD and it has no erotic component at all. So maybe this is more generalization than fact?

      Just like stereotypes, generalizations are often or even usually true but usually oversimplify an issue and can be very problematic if confused with facts. And I think it is generalization that causes much of the perceived disagreement on the "maternal" issue, and probably quite a few other issues we talk about.

      Alan: I agree that very few wives want to be a mother to their husband, and that this is a VERY common fear that wives have that prevents couples from pursuing DD. I know my wife was that way at first. And I agree that in many cases, those who have not experienced a true DD relationship have an idealized fantasy of what DD would be like in real life, and this fantasy seems to often be entirely non-erotic, totally wife-initiated (so a lot closer to non-consensual), and thus pretty "maternal." Of course, the reality for many couples will be that it will be him (or at least the spanked party) that initiates the whole thing, and even though they might be using very real punishments for very real infractions, there will usually be a pretty clear erotic element as well, which interesting many of us also try unsuccessfully to deny.

      Notice how many time I have already said "many" "few" "often" and "usually" and it will be clear that one size doesn't fit all!

      Now, regarding "maternal" specifically (but only for me). When I say that our DD feels somewhat maternal, I am NOT talking about our general relationship, which naturally feels anything but maternal. I am ONLY saying that when my wife punishes me, actually even more so right before she punishes me, like if she scolds me, sometimes I feel very much like a naughty little boy, notwithstanding the clear reality that I am a grown (and unfortunately quite a bit too big) man. And my wife says that sometimes, when she is getting ready to punish me, it is almost like she is going to punish a naughty boy. And even though there is a clear erotic element to spanking for me, I think in a way this still kind of works, because I am a lot more turned on by the thought of spanking than I am by receiving the actual spankings when they happen. The same is true that I am the one who wants a DD relationship - and who requested it initially - and it was, is, and always will be fully consensual, unlike a parental spanking. However, whenever she decides to spank me, I most definitely DO NOT want it to happen, even though I know that after it happens I will be happy that it did. So in this way, it still FEELS pretty non-consensual at the actual time of punishment, even though it is obviously totally consensual at all times.

      This probably just muddied the waters more, but I wanted to throw in how I use (or perhaps misuse) the "maternal" description for spanking and how I resolve the different feelings around it.

      -ZM





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    15. [Oops, messed up the previous comment]
      I haven't been in a DD relationship, but I've been reading about them for at least a decade. In real life, women who identify as maternal disciplinarians, and males who crave that kind of nurturing, are not at all uncommon. Large online groups have existed that specify that dynamic as the focus.

      For some, "mother" is a more literal role that goes well beyond spanking, but for most it's merely some set of maternal characteristics around the desire or need for nurturing parental discipline. In DD, what does maternal mean? Who thinks it's about incest? And so she doesn't want to be his "mother." Her husband just needs to be spanked so he'll live up to her standards. Sounds like semantics to me.

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    16. Dan writer to Alan: “You’re obviously entitled to your own opinion regarding whether DD relationships should have a maternal aspect, but I don't agree at all with your characterization that people who find the maternal element appealing aren't in real DD relationships.”

      Dan,Your comment makes me think that what I was trying to say wasn’t very clear. ZM’s comments directly below yours do a better job of it and are very close to what I hoped to say. The word maternal is at issue here or rather how it is interpreted.

      Some parts of female led DD do feel maternal including the nurturing that encompasses it and that is certainly appealing. And there are elements in the disciplinary experience such as the wide spread use of a hair brush and the OTK position for punishment that have strong maternal elements in our culture.

      But I believe most men seeking a DD relationship are not looking for a mother, but instead a mature adult sexual relationship with a (quoting the DWC web site)”maternal discipline orientation” We have no disagreement about that.

      But I think it is the adult sexual relationship framed by a maternal discipline orientation that is the day after day lived reality.
      Alan

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    17. Danielle here:

      The way I see it, if DD feels maternal, it is maternal; if it doesn’t feel maternal, it isn’t. Alan is right that spousal discipline is different from parental (maternal) discipline in two ways: it has a sexual dimension, and it is consensual. For that reason, it might not feel maternal to some people. Or they might not *want* it to feel maternal.

      Alan says that the similarities between adult DD and maternal discipline are “superficial”. It may feel that way to some people, but it doesn’t feel that way to me. When my husband asked me to spank him, he was clear that he wanted me to exercise real disciplinary authority over him. In other words, he wanted me to treat him like a naughty child whenever I was unhappy with his behavior or his attitude. To me that felt like a request to behave like a mother to him. My feeling was all the stronger because I was still a disciplinarian to our two sons at that time. Alan is undoubtedly right that many women would be put off by the idea of becoming “like a mother” to their husband. I was initially. That’s one reason I rejected my husband’s initial request for DD. So I understand Alan’s logic that it might be less off putting to women if we don’t *think* of DD as maternal. But I don’t think avoiding the word could change the way I *feel* about it.

      When I finally agreed to a FLR, I embraced the maternal aspect. For one thing, my experience as maternal disciplinarian to my sons provided me with a model for disciplining my husband. That was conscious. But it felt instinctive to me as well. We still related as two adults in most ways. But without thinking about it, I began to use infantilizing language whenever I was in authoritarian mode. For example, to praise my husband for obedience, I would call him a “good boy.” Or when I would come home after he had been home alone, I would ask, “Have you been a good boy?” That was a coded way of asking whether he had done anything that would merit discipline. When I scold him before a spanking, or some other form of punishment, I naturally go into maternal mode and tell him how “naughty” he is. I have never forgotten that he is a man, and the father of my children, but he can simultaneously be a naughty little boy needing discipline. Often, I shame him during a spanking, saying that he should be ashamed of himself, a “grown man” needing to be spanked like a little boy. Another way spanking is maternal for us is that it is never immediately followed by sex. I have come to enjoy dominating my husband in the bedroom too, but we interact as two adults when we engage in D/s sex play, whereas spanking has a parent/child feel. That’s why I never spank as a prelude to sex: sex is for men, not for naughty boys who need to be spanked.

      Final point. I believe that the maternal aspect of DD in our home fulfills some emotional need for my husband. He has a fetish for my hairbrushes, and he has said that his favorite spanking position is over my knee. He has also confessed that he feels like he is about 14 years old when I spank him that way. From what I have read, I don’t think my husband is unique in that way.

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    18. Danielle, I ran your points by my wife, as I was curious to find out what she had to say on the issues raised.

      My wife says there are various other distinctions (at least in the way we do things) as well as the ones mentioned earlier that mean it doesn't feel maternal to her.

      She says using infantilising language and putting me over her knee have never really been her thing. She always wanted it to feel like adult corporal punishment, similar to how it is practiced in some nations around the world, e.g. Malaysia and Singapore. Another reason she gave is that she spanks with an intensity that would never be permitted on a child (though obviously, the situation is different with a consenting adult).

      This doesn't mean she doesn't use physical discipline on our children, but how she does things with them and how she does things with me are a world apart.

      Needless to say, she said that spanking just before sex also helps make sure it doesn't feel maternal.

      Obviously, you do things very differently and I would never wish to be seen as criticising you and your husband for doing things this way in the privacy of your own marital relationship. It sounds like it works very well for you, so great!

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    19. The examples Hugh Jass is providing through his wife’s reflections upon their DD do illustrate the many differences among us both in what a male might expect and what a female provides in the way of the disciplinary experience. Culture and practice are a big part of it.

      For me the style of discipline Danielle describes might feel pretty maternal particularly if she used a hairbrush or paddle.

      But move the setting to the Netherlands (carpet beater), France (tawse) or the UK (cane) and much of that maternal ambiance moves too. So while I remain comfortable with the original DWC description of a “maternal discipline orientation, the point on that orientation spectrum that any couple falls within varies a lot.
      Alan

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    20. Danielle: "Another way spanking is maternal for us is that it is never immediately followed by sex. … That’s why I never spank as a prelude to sex: sex is for men, not for naughty boys who need to be spanked. … He has a fetish for my hairbrushes, and he has said that his favorite spanking position is over my knee. He has also confessed that he feels like he is about 14 years old when I spank him that way. … We still related as two adults in most ways."

      Danielle is an example of "maternal" to me. The marriage is two adults, a wife and husband, not a mother and child. However, the discipline aspect is not spousal, it is parental. The point of punishment is not sexual foreplay, it is correction and behavior modification. When she decides a spanking is necessary, there is no difference between her role and the role of a mother. The consensual aspect doesn't alter the role. For me, I believe it would absolutely feel like I was a teenager, and with no thought whatsoever that this is leading to anything sexual. The fact that sex is not going to happen as a direct result of punishment is a vital condition to make the purpose even more clear. I relate to a teenager because, mentally and emotionally, I'm not limited by the lack of awareness a younger child has about what is happening to them. There is a bridge between child and adult where, at the same time, I feel "too old" for a parental spanking, and must accept the cold hard reality that I am not too old.

      The result of maternal discipline must be effective as such, or it won't be used. The desire for the regime is sexually motivated, but if spanking is really a reward disguised as a penalty, it doesn't work for me.

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    21. Danielle: "Final point. I believe that the maternal aspect of DD in our home fulfills some emotional need for my husband. He has a fetish for my hairbrushes, and he has said that his favorite spanking position is over my knee." There was a time we didn't do OTK and she didn't use a hairbrush, because we didn't think it was very effective. I've now seen that we gave up on it too soon, and it recently has become a stable. And, I do believe there is something particularly iconic about the hairbrush as a spanking instrument.

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    22. Again, points below are shared viewpoints after having discussed the points raised with my wife. As with everything, I'm not criticising anyone and if something another couple does within the privacy of their marital relationship works, great.

      Alan mentioned how instruments vary according to culture. I guess the age thing can also vary according to the culture as well. It doesn't seem maternal to my wife or me because of our cultural familiarity with various nations where adult judicial corporal punishment is practiced today, in many cases with the rotan (or rattan) being the instrument of choice. Anyone interested to learn more can easily find materials on this subject online regarding Malaysia. We wanted to model DD in our marriage on the template of adult judicial corporal punishment.

      Some things are similar. It is very much an adult form of punishment. This is not to say discipline on children doesn't take place in these nations too, but adult judicial corporal punishment is well known. Also, in many nations, it is only done on males. The positions we use are closer to this than say being over my wife's knee. The recipients try and take it with as little display of emotion as possible.

      However, there are some differences. Adult judicial corporal punishment in these nations tends to be carried out with instruments that tend to rip the skin apart and are therefore intended to be used occasionally for serious crimes. My wife instead uses instruments that (we understand) are no less painful at the moment of impact, but don't leave huge marks or rip the skin apart, knowing that they will be used regularly.

      Brett, the point of punishment from my side is primarily correction, behaviour modification and character reform. It has the added benefit of feeling like foreplay to her, but the intensity with which my wife administers corporal punishment is too high for it to feel like foreplay to me. Even when I know a spanking is on its way, it is difficult for me to view it as foreplay, knowing how painful (and therefore effective) it will be.

      However, the benefit of it being before sex to me is that sex happens immediately after everything my wife has been unhappy with has been dealt with in full and we have a figurative "clean sheet".

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    23. Hugh, I think for some of us, we really need to have a reference for what it is we're doing, and where we come from is the key to it. In my life, where I've lived and learned the meaning of things, corporal punishment is for kids. If an adult is being physically punished, to an observer such as myself, it's always been either a crime, kinky, or in a movie. Even if adult non-sexual, non-consensual CP was a legally or socially acceptable reality, unless I had experienced it personally, I doubt I would have the connection to spanking that I do. Your reference to CP is another culture, and it sounds like you don't require that what you do in the home match the institutional judicial procedure that is practiced in those places. The main connection for you is that the punishment of an adult male is real and physically severe. In my case, spanking is on the level of the responsible parenting of my youth, and the psychological impact combined with the physical pain is what makes it effective. A detail like whether sex follows punishment is an important psychological component because the experience relies on an authentic framework of parental discipline. However, that shouldn't define authentic punishment for anyone else. I can see that, if the physical punishment is judicially severe, having sex afterwards isn't going to negate or compromise the punitive impact. Or in other cases, a relatively light spanking followed by sex might feel like punishment. With regard to punishment, whatever it feels like, it is.

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    24. Interesting discussion. Only speaking for myself, I do not feel any childlike submission to my wife during punishment. I don’t feel like a teenager either, truly. However, I do feel like we are doing things “backwards,” e.g. we have flipped the traditional husband-wife dynamic horizontally so authority flows from the wife over to the husband. I don’t feel at all like we have flipped to a vertical authority structure where suddenly the wife is above the husband in the family tree, where a mother will be. To me, that would be a completely different kind of spanking relationship where my wife inhabits another role (mother) rather than changing the properties of her real role (wife.) I see how if someone does feel like a teenager, the woman spanking them is going to feel like a mother, because most men don’t have a reference for being a married teenager, I’d think? But it seems like we are all bringing different backgrounds, self-perceptions, needs, and desires, so even that might not be true.

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    25. There's a thing called age regression, where one does become to some extent a child, and some women take maternal to a more literal level. For me it's an association with childhood. I'm not imagining or inhabiting a role. My wife would still be my wife but, with regard to discipline, she's punishing no different than when I was a teenager. Her motives are characterized as maternal, but that doesn't mean she's playing "mom." There's no role-play involved, and that's what makes it so compelling.

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    26. MW, indeed, most people aren't married before leaving their teens these days! Some couples might still feel this discipline is a little bit of a vertical flip if say their normal way of doing things is for the husband to be the leader. Indeed, a lot of our customs for how spanking is done come from our cultural experiences.

      Brett, you are right that we don't want absolutely everything we do to match judicial adult CP. However, it has given us many useful influences. I agree that a sufficiently severe punishment will have a punitive effect even if there is sex afterwards.

      My wife doesn't feel like her motives are maternal. She says she has always felt her motives for punishing me were wifely, moulding me into the best husband I can be and getting rid of undesirable behavioural traits. The lack of role play is true with us as well: it is sufficiently real and we don't need to embellish it!

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    27. MW, indeed, most people aren't married before leaving their teens these days! Some couples might still feel this discipline is a little bit of a vertical flip if say their normal way of doing things is for the husband to be the leader. Indeed, a lot of our customs for how spanking is done come from our cultural experiences.

      Brett, you are right that we don't want absolutely everything we do to match judicial adult CP. However, it has given us many useful influences. I agree that a sufficiently severe punishment will have a punitive effect even if there is sex afterwards.

      My wife doesn't feel like her motives are maternal. She says she has always felt her motives for punishing me were wifely, moulding me into the best husband I can be and getting rid of undesirable behavioural traits. The lack of role play is true with us as well: it is sufficiently real and we don't need to embellish it!

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    28. Hi Hugh,
      "... a lot of our customs for how spanking is done come from our cultural experiences." - very true. And this also changes what we think of as "maternal" when it comes to spanking, based on country, etc.

      "I agree that a sufficiently severe punishment will have a punitive effect even if there is sex afterwards." - absolutely true. That is why we make no real effort to separate the two, but in fact because of life, it tends to turn out separate most of the time anyway. But we have no qualms with making love the same day a punishment was administered, and so on. However, we almost never do it right after a punishment. I don't think it is because we want to keep them separate as much as that it is usually not a convenient time, and I don't think it generally puts us that much in the mood, unless it is just a light play spanking.

      "She says she has always felt her motives for punishing me were wifely, moulding me into the best husband I can be and getting rid of undesirable behavioural traits." - My wife would agree with the reasons, but she still feels a bit like a mom during the action, and I definitely feel kind of like the naughty boy.

      "The lack of role play is true with us as well: it is sufficiently real and we don't need to embellish it!" - We do role play sometimes (more than most others here I think), BUT we don't do it in conjunction with punishments. They are two different things. If my wife wants to play, then that is where the dress-up and so on happens, but when she wants to punish, there is no role play element at all.

      -ZM

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    29. Another thing I was going to say is that I wonder just how future generations might view adult spanking and DD? Could it be that spanking might no longer feel maternal at all for most people, just like they won't equate it with school or things like that, simply because it is happening less and less in homes, and in most states not at all in schools? So it might feel more maternal for younger people if you leave the hairbrush in the bathroom drawer and instead put him in time-out for 5 minutes!

      Maybe that is one reason it is so hard to see DD as being "real," since now about the only time spanking happens at all is between consenting adults, and 99% of that is for play.

      -ZM

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    30. ZM, I am confused about whether or not the system posts what I write, so apologies if this is a repeat.

      Can you elaborate on what you said about DD spankings not leaving you in the mood for sex? It definitely leaves my wife in the mood, as it communicates the message that I am willing to take pain for the sake of making our marriage better and that I love her.

      You are right. It may be that spanking of children will become less common and spousal spanking will become more common, given that society is accepting corporal punishment of children less and less. I would happily recommend this way of doing things to other married couples. Certainly, my wife would have no desire to use the "naughty step" with me, since she was never seeking to infantilise me! I think it would make many marriages better if F/M DD were used widely: what is your view?

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    31. Over the years, I've read about and talked with many people who are of younger generations, who were never even threatened with a spanking growing up, and where it wasn't a real issue with others they knew either, and yet they turned out to be as attracted as I am to the idea of parental spanking discipline. A common story is that the interest was piqued and then continued to be fed by historical references, old cartoons, classic novels, movies, etc.. The fact appears to be that this fetish doesn't rely on one's personal experience or of common practice. In my case, I have the personal experiences to more narrowly focus my fetish, but the parent-child discipline dynamic that features corporal punishment appears to be inherently attractive to some percentage of human beings. The historical record will likely survive any change of culture, and I see no reason why it won't continue to seduce those with the right DNA.

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    32. Brett writes: “The historical record will likely survive any change of culture, and I see no reason why it won't continue to seduce those with the right DNA.”

      Brett is basically correct. The virtual end of spanking for children now going on in the western world is not going to end adult interest in adult spanking. I believe that our DNA/Genome makeup predispose us to be interested in spanking and it takes very little in our environments to trigger that predisposition.
      For me it was a picture from the musical “Kiss me Kate” of the heroine being spanked fully clothed OTK by the leading man. That brought the fetish to full consciousness as an adolescent although I can remember back to childhood some fascination with spanking. But a bigger question is what sets the spanking orientation – switch, F/M or M/F (Similar questions exist for Homosexual folks –M/M and F/F)

      There are lots of ideas about this including the notion that we all are switches, with a preference but essentially spankos at the core. It would be interesting to have a discussion about this on the blog .
      Alan


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    33. Great points, Alan. Since I was exposed to the broader view of spanking that the Internet offers, I've come to see a range of fetishes or desires that are either centered on spanking, or where spanking plays some role. The parent-child discipline relationship is just one. Teacher-student is closely related as another form of authority under which children have historically (and currently) been spanked. A key distinguishing element of this is non-consent. Consensual adult spanking is often not associated with any recognized model of authority other than what partners define for themselves, like Dom/sub, Master/slave, or Top/bottom. And some adults just enjoy spanking with no feelings of power exchange at all.

      This raises questions about, not just spanking being inherently attractive to many people, but why we all have our various desires and connections to it. There must be something in our genetics and/or environment/exposure that is more complex than a simple focus on the act of spanking. Two children may view the same depiction of spanking as a trigger that will develop into different attractions. Alan brings up a very significant and distinguishing aspect. What makes us spankers, spankees or switches, and how does gender factor into it? Alan recognizes the hetero and homosexual orientations, and I would also add that all of them, F/M, M/F, F/F and M/M can also be asexual, or where there is no sexual attraction between discipline partners.

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    34. Hi Hugh,
      First off, on the not necessarily being in the mood for sex after spanking, that applies more in the case of true punishment. I am not saying that I couldn't get in the mood quickly, since I am always sort of in the mood, just that I don't feel particularly turned on after punishments. When we are doing role-play spankings, however, that almost always turns into sex, and usually it is my wife who is trying to be the demanding "B" but after a few minutes just gets too much in the mood and the whole role just vanishes and it turns into passionate lovemaking.

      "It may be that spanking of children will become less common and spousal spanking will become more common..." The spanking of children will certainly become less common, but I am not so sure that spousal spanking will become more common.

      "I think it would make many marriages better if F/M DD were used widely: what is your view?" - I do think it would generally be a good thing, assuming it is consensual (or at least with the blanket consent we occasionally talk about here).

      Brett
      "The historical record will likely survive any change of culture, and I see no reason why it won't continue to seduce those with the right DNA.” - I agree that some of us seem to just be wired for this. And I of course agree that if you are wired for it, it can take next to nothing to trigger the thoughts/fantasies, and there will always at least be historical references to spanking.

      and Alan (responding to Brett): "The virtual end of spanking for children now going on in the western world is not going to end adult interest in adult spanking." - Absolutely right. However, the question I was primarily asking was not so much whether children no longer being spanked much would end adult interest in adult spanking (which is of course a valid way to interpret my first question). Rather the purpose of the first question was to frame the questions that followed: "Could it be that spanking might no longer feel maternal at all for most people, just like they won't equate it with school or things like that, simply because it is happening less and less in homes, and in most states not at all in schools?"

      I have no doubt that adults will still be interested in adult spanking, even if all childhood spankings were to completely stop. But I do wonder if that were to happen, would we still think of spankings being maternal at all (for those who do think that, of course)? If mothers no longer spank, then it would seem like the whole maternal model would go out the window. And that is where I was going with "so it might feel more maternal for younger people if you leave the hairbrush in the bathroom drawer and instead put him in time-out for 5 minutes!" Now that would feel like a punishment a modern mother might give her disobedient child.

      -ZM

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    35. Brett,
      If one focuses just on the F/M orientation which many of us share, it often seems that it is the exercise of feminine authority within an intimate relationship that lies at the center of the fetish. Spanking or the threat of spanking is often part of that exercise of authority. But as we have discussed and Danielle among others has emphasized: spanking is not always necessary to make it all work. Women invoking their authority –and in my case, one woman demanding obedience – is what really matters
      Alan

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    36. ZM wrote: “Rather the purpose of the first question was to frame the questions that followed: "Could it be that spanking might no longer feel maternal at all for most people”
      I partially addressed this in my note to Brett just above, but I do agree with you that future generations will experience less or none of whatever aura of maternal discipline now exists among practitioners of consensual adult spanking.
      In fact there is nothing inherently maternal about spanking. But to continue the point I was making with Brett: For me it is the exercise of female authority much more than spanking per se that propels the dynamic we call a disciplinary wife.
      Alan

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    37. Brett writes,"There must be something in our genetics and/or environment/exposure that is more complex than a simple focus on the act of spanking. Two children may view the same depiction of spanking as a trigger that will develop into different attractions. Alan brings up a very significant and distinguishing aspect. What makes us spankers, spankees or switches, and how does gender factor into it?" I agree. It's fun to speculate. There surely is not a single "spanking gene;" that would be too simple. I think diversity in spanking preferences among Homo sapiens is basically the same as other aspects of diversity: some of us are leaders; most of us are followers; many of us are nurturers; others not; some of us are extroverts; and some of us are introverts. I see all of this diversity as largely positive, and beneficial to the long-term survival of the human race. - Doug

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    38. Brett, agreed on the personal experience (or lack thereof) part. Some people might be aware of it happening and then desire it, possibly being in for a rude awakening when it finally does happen for them! Agreed that the historical record will result in many people being aware of it for a long time to come! However, it may be that in future, adult DD has greater preponderance in people's minds than past practices of parents spanking children and it may lose the "maternal" feeling that way, even though people are well aware of it happening.

      Alan, I definitely believe that adult spanking will carry the practice forward, whatever happens with parents spanking children. In terms of what set my spanking orientation, I would say it was the view of men being built more robustly and better able to take physical hardships and the expectation that they will take physical hardships for the benefit of their wives. For this reason, I always viewed adult spanking as an F/M thing, not a M/F thing. I am definitely not a switch! Though a spanko, yes, as I participate in this lifestyle with my wife willingly.

      Brett, what did you mean by the part about some adults enjoying spanking with no feelings of power exchange?

      Agreed that it may be asexual, though it is often sexual, with the buttocks being an erogenous zone.

      ZM, agreed that spanking in marriage being used widely would be a good thing. If it is good for some people, why wouldn't it be good for others too? Agreed that some substantial degree of blanket consent is necessary for it to work. If a wife has to keep asking her husband if he is okay with it, then it doesn't feel like DD.

      I agree that spankings may cease to feel maternal with it being more of an adult practice. I suppose this is a good thing, as mental clarity that it is an adult thing is good.

      Alan, knowing that a hard spanking will come means my wife doesn't feel she has to demand obedience!

      Doug, agreed, it will not be the same everywhere and it will be counterproductive for one couple to try and follow another couple's method too closely.

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    39. Hi Alan,
      "...it is the exercise of feminine authority within an intimate relationship that lies at the center of the fetish...spanking is not always necessary to make it all work. Women invoking their authority –and in my case, one woman demanding obedience – is what really matters" - This is exactly how it is for me. For about 35 years I was absolutely convinced that my fetish/fantasy was for spanking, and of course to a certain degree it is. But then when I started to actually be in a DD relationship, and through my dialogue here with others here, I realized that my fetish is almost entirely for the feminine authority, and spanking was just a manifestation of that authority. The way you summed it up was exactly how I feel: "For me it is the exercise of female authority much more than spanking per se that propels the dynamic we call a disciplinary wife." How ironic that it took actually being in a DD relationship to understand just what it was that I craved for all those years.

      -ZM

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    40. Hi Hugh,
      "For this reason, I always viewed adult spanking as an F/M thing, not a M/F thing. I am definitely not a switch!" - I think this is true for me as well, though honestly I cannot say with any certainly that I am not a switch, since I have never tried that. I too always saw adult spanking as a F/M thing, but that is obviously because I let my own desires over-rule my intellect on that, since even at a cursory glance one can see that M/F adult spanking is probably 10x more prevalent than F/M.

      I think what Brett was saying about some adults enjoy spanking without any feelings of power exchange is that there are those who just enjoy the physical sensations and the activity of spanking. If it is all for play with no "reason," and if both people are enjoying the act, then I can see how it could be possible with no power exchange.

      You asked me: "If it is good for some people, why wouldn't it be good for others too? " - I think that for it to work as an effective relationship tool, both parties have to be onboard, and I am not just talking about going along with it, but actually being serious about it and wanting it to help affect real change. And while DD could work for many couples, the real power of DD is unleashed when it plays to the fantasies of the one being spanked.

      "Agreed that some substantial degree of blanket consent is necessary for it to work. If a wife has to keep asking her husband if he is okay with it, then it doesn't feel like DD." - Exactly this! As I have been in this for 5 1/2 years now, I have come to understand that this consensual non-consent is the paradox around which DD is built. If a husband actually enjoys being spanked (while it is happening), then spanking cannot be an effective punishment. If a husband finds being spanked (or punished in general) very unpleasant, but has no fantasies about the feminine authority being exercised and is only allowing it to happen because he agreed to it knowing it is good for the relationship, spanking (or other punishments) can work ok. But when the one being punished doesn't like the actual punishments, but is motivated by his underlying fetish for feminine authority, the whole thing becomes explosively powerful. In reality, his "consensual non-consent" isn't something he ever would ever realistically withdraw because of the power of the underlying fetish. And if he would never withdraw his consent, that is effectively the same as "can't withdraw," and the whole thing starts to feel pretty non-consensual and inevitable at the time punishments actually happen.

      "knowing that a hard spanking will come means my wife doesn't feel she has to demand obedience!" - True, but this is because of the constant implied threat of the hard spanking that would come from disobedience. Once the relationship is in place and she knows her authority and you know how hard she can spank, she doesn't even need to threaten a spanking very often because it is just understood. And you and Alan are both right on this one. She doesn't have to explicitly demand obedience, as you said, but in fact all she has to do is calmly tell you to do something, and you (knowing full well the result of any disobedience) will treat it like a demand!

      -ZM

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    41. ZM Wrote: “How ironic that it took actually being in a DD relationship to understand just what it was that I craved for all those years.”
      This is probably why those first few real spankings are so shocking or why it is such an internal struggle when she decides to spank and you really don’t want it. Every guy go through some version of this who ends up in a DD relationship. (I though spanking turned me on but this is hell)
      But its only hell until it’s over and then you remember it with excitement and look forward to another where you experience hell once again. Eventually men (who are notoriously slow learners) figure it out that female authority lies behind it all. I do wonder how many guys opt out after a couple of early spankings ( I did think about it) and then miss the real joy and fulfillment of female led DD. That’s one we are unlikely to ever know
      Alan

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    42. Alan, my wife doesn't tend to use much authority as part of our DD relationship. I suppose there is some sort of "surrender" of authority during the spanking, but she doesn't tend to exert much authority. The spanking does all the talking!

      ZM, M/F adult spanking is probably best known, but I know that art showing women spanking their husbands has existed for a while. I am aware of an engraved plate depicting this, but I haven't been able to find this.

      It is indeed possible without the power exchange. With us, our understanding is that my wife spanks me for things she is unhappy about that I have done (almost tit-for-tat, I suppose), which doesn't need to include a power exchange. As a man, I subject myself to this pain, so that things are "paid for" and harmony is kept. If a man enters into marriage being willing to give up his life for his wife if need be, then spanking doesn't seem like a big deal.

      Indeed, such relationships will struggle without both parties favouring it. However, I presupposed this when I said this: I presupposed couples would only enter into such a relationship when they were happy with it, which I believe they can be when they look into it.

      Agreed, the situation of not liking the punishments per se, but being motivated by things associated with the punishment, is a situation that is close to ideal. Even if he is aroused at the end (or before the spanking), if he knows it is painful and therefore avoids doing something that will irritate or upset his wife, that is also a situation is where it is effective.

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    43. ZM: "If mothers no longer spank, then it would seem like the whole maternal model would go out the window. And that is where I was going with "so it might feel more maternal for younger people if you leave the hairbrush in the bathroom drawer and instead put him in time-out for 5 minutes!" Now that would feel like a punishment a modern mother might give her disobedient child."

      First, we've narrowed it down to maternal, but there is also the larger scope of parental. It seems millions of spanko women are craving a father figure, often explicitly "daddy," and not necessarily because they were spanked growing up. There are men who look for paternal disciplinarians, some gay and some straight. My most influential punishments growing up were from my father, and though that informs my fetish in powerful ways, I'm not attracted to M/M as a relationship for me.

      Many like myself are attracted to parental discipline because of the nurturing aspect of it, and also the idea of archetypal authority that is unique to parenting. The parental model is not going away. Being put in time-out as a punishment is nothing new, and many spankos get a charge out of the idea. However, it doesn't replace the powerful cathartic experience that spanking provides and, as we've discussed, history will continue to serve as a model for spanking as parental discipline. Mothers will continue to serve as a model for the most intimate nurturing. I read all the time where young heterosexual women, even married ones, are in search of maternal discipline, and with spanking at the center of it, so it appears to be a craving that will continue to exist regardless of how children are actually being raised.

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    44. Alan: "If one focuses just on the F/M orientation which many of us share, it often seems that it is the exercise of feminine authority within an intimate relationship that lies at the center of the fetish. …but I do agree with you that future generations will experience less or none of whatever aura of maternal discipline now exists among practitioners of consensual adult spanking.
      In fact there is nothing inherently maternal about spanking."

      I guess the question begged… what is inherently desirable about spanking? It varies from person to person. For me and many others, maternal/paternal/parental is at the core of disciplinary spanking, and we have the authentic traditional role models as the foundation for our desires. I am also highly attracted to a female who embodies and exercises that authority, however, I don't think of it as exclusively feminine. I see it as a strength of the individual rather than as a generality. A woman may or may not possess strong parental/maternal instincts, but if she can provide that kind of nurturing, she becomes an even more attractive and powerful leader. Whether or not my spanking fetish is fulfilled relies on her desire to punish in that manner.

      I think the fact that adult males seek out "feminine authority" in a patriarchal society is evidence that you don't need a conventional model in order to have a desire. As future generations experience less parental discipline, it will nevertheless remain desirable, possibly even more highly craved for the lack of it.

      Hugh: "Brett, what did you mean by the part about some adults enjoying spanking with no feelings of power exchange? … Agreed that it may be asexual, though it is often sexual, with the buttocks being an erogenous zone."

      ZM answered it well. Many spankos are not into discipline, and some have no desire for domination or submission. The buttocks as an erogenous zone, and sensation play is probably the most common reason. Other scenes I've read about use spanking as a kind of psychological therapy, people looking for a thrill or catharsis. Then masochism is not confined to spanking of the buttocks, but it's one form of pain to endure.

      Doug: "I think diversity in spanking preferences among Homo sapiens is basically the same as other aspects of diversity: some of us are leaders; most of us are followers; many of us are nurturers; others not; some of us are extroverts; and some of us are introverts. I see all of this diversity as largely positive, and beneficial to the long-term survival of the human race."

      It is also interesting that our spanking desires sometimes have little to do with our personalities, values, or who we are as people. I have no strong tendencies to lead or follow, yet I'm attracted to the authority and control of the discipline dynamic from either end of the paddle. I'm liberal, anti-authoritarianism, I don't otherwise enjoy pain or causing pain, and yet I'm into corporal punishment. It's a mystery.

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    45. Hi Hugh,
      It is interesting just how differently we can all be wired, and yet still each be attracted to and get something out of DD. I was looking at what you wrote, and realized that we are almost opposite on some parts, yet seem to both reap the same overall relationship benefits.

      "It is indeed possible without the power exchange. With us, our understanding is that my wife spanks me for things she is unhappy about that I have done (almost tit-for-tat, I suppose), which doesn't need to include a power exchange." - Absolutely true that it doesn't need to include a power exchange. If she is just doing what you both have previously agreed to (if ____, then _____...) there could still be power exchange, but it is not necessarily so.

      Power exchange is not so much inherent in the actual act of spanking, but rather in who is making the decisions and is in control. To whatever degree she decides what you will be punished for or how you will be punished is what determines what element of control there is, and whether there is power exchange or not.

      For my wife and I, while we have talked about and initially agreed on several things that I would be punished before, that was mostly for her benefit to give her a little boost of confidence in the beginning. Now, she has total discretion (and hence control) over what I am punished for as well as the punishment method and severity. F So for my wife and me it is really all about power exchange; as long as she at least occasionally punishes me to exercise that authority, the power structure remains intact, reinforced by the mostly unspoken but ever-present threat of spanking.

      "As a man, I subject myself to this pain, so that things are 'paid for' and harmony is kept. If a man enters into marriage being willing to give up his life for his wife if need be, then spanking doesn't seem like a big deal." - This seems similar to whole "knight" model, which I fully understand, but for me it just has never really resonated. I do fully agree with your point that if you are willing to die for your wife, taking a spanking isn't a very big ask.

      Anyway, one thing I love about the blog is the diversity we get in approach, whether methods employed or underlying philosophy. I love hearing other viewpoints, and I learn a lot from all of you!

      -ZM

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    46. ZM, indeed! I understand spanking has a maternal feel to some, but putting someone in the "naughty corner", "naughty step" or whatever seems a bit too far for me personally!

      Even if spanking lost its maternal feel, the legacy left by several centuries of this practice mean it will be thought about for a long time to come!

      Brett, I agree that it will not be a good situation if children are raised without discipline (by whatever means)! We indulge children very badly these days, acting as though they have the answers to everything, when in reality, most of what small children say is rubbish and it is not likely that they will routinely have useful information their parents don't yet know until they are almost adults.

      Agreed that many people go for spanking because of some sort of pleasure they gain from it, whatever that may be.

      I agree that there are often lots of apparent paradoxes or even contradictions, as you say.

      ZM, not everything my wife spanks me for is defined as an "if then" algorithm. She has pretty much free rein to spank me when she wants to. I suppose in the sense you described, yes, there is a power exchange.

      In the beginning, I gave my wife suggestions of things she might decide to punish me for, but I wasn't particularly prescriptive and pretty soon, she had no use for the suggestions, since she already knew.

      Where have you heard about this knight model? Is it a term used by others? I struggled to find someone else using the term in the same way with an online search. Indeed it isn't a big ask: I have heard stories about men elsewhere in the world who do far more extreme things for their wives than this!

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  4. My wife and I agreed at the start of our DD relationship to restrict punishments to spankings. I don't want to criticise any other couples that use other punishments: if it works for them in terms of maintaining a good marriage, great!

    However, for us, what was important was that the things I was being spanked for would be fully dealt with by the spanking (however painful it is for me), wouldn't spill over into other areas and would be finished and in the past.

    I suppose she could give other punishments. However, the understanding has always been that if I cooperate fully with the spankings, we don't need to cross that bridge. So far she has not said anything that implies she wants to do this, so looks like it is set to continue for the foreseeable future.

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  5. Thank you for this discussion. My wife has been reticent to spank me as punishment because she did not want it to be constant. Many of the comments on this site seem to sugggest that spanking is frequent. It seemed to both of us that if spanking were effective, it would not need to be utilized often.

    I would love a parental relationship with my wife and she is clearly dominant in our relationship. She just does not want to walk around with a hairbrush all the time. Tom

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    1. Tom wrote: “…if spanking were effective, it would not need to be utilized often.”

      I think many couples must face this dilemma. In fact I made an earlier comment about it above this one. Some couples want it to be frequent either because the need for discipline is always there – or because the erotic aspects of spanking make “funishment” part of their relationship. But if your disciplinary objectives are clear to both of you, you both want to minimize the frequency spanking is used, and she is consistent in investing the time to establish her authority, the frequency of spanking does decrease pretty dramatically – decrease but not disappear. I once asked a former girlfriend if she thought the day would come when she would not need to spank. She told me she thought it would become infrequent, but it would always need to be there as “backup” and I would need to know it was there. For a male that wants/needs to be spanked by his partner, that is the reality.
      Alan

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    2. Hi Tom,
      My wife shared several of these concerns in the beginning. First and foremost, she didn't want DD to take over our marriage and be all consuming. This seems pretty similar to your wife not wanting it to be constant and to not have to walk around with a hairbrush in her hand.

      At least in our case, that was never a problem, even though she was worried about it at first. We have our weekly check-ins, which more often than not do not result in a spanking, and even when they do, it is not very long or hard. And as Alan pointed out above, as time passes in a DD relationship, the frequency of punishment spankings just seems to go down. So I guess in that sense DD is effective.

      On the "if spanking were effective, it would not need to be utilized often" comment... It largely depends on what is being corrected. Some things are easily and quickly corrected, such as consciously breaking an agreed upon rule. On the other hand, lifelong habits that are deeply ingrained, unconscious behavior, and things like attitude might take much longer to change. And in some cases, extinguishing a behavior isn't possible or isn't desirable (like maybe it is just too much a part of who someone is). In those cases, DD can be used to effectively limit or control a behavior without necessarily causing it to cease entirely.

      And when mentioning spanking frequency vs. effectiveness, as we have mentioned here several times on other weeks, as behavior (or achieving goals) improves, there seems to be a tendency for the expectations to be shifted higher. So she might end up punishing just as often, but for failing to meet newer, higher expectations.

      -ZM

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  6. Dev says our tried and true methods have worked well over 30 years. You don’t need to fix what isn’t broken . JR.

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    1. I get that perspective, even though for me I think some non-spanking punishments might be more effective for me in breaking habits that have been resistant to spanking.

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    2. Hi Dan,
      I too think that might be the case. One of my favorite things about spanking is the swift resolution that it provides, but I almost think that in some cases where you are trying to break some lifelong habit, it might be better to have a punishment that spans days or weeks, just to really have time for you to think about it. I think my reluctance is mostly rooted in not liking it, even knowing how well it would probably work!

      -ZM

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    3. "I think my reluctance is mostly rooted in not liking it, even knowing how well it would probably work!" Bingo! I suspect this sums up *a lot* of the resistance to alternative punishments. We don't like them and they don't scratch the spanking fetish some have, and they might be effective precisely *because* we don't like them and they don't scratch that fetish.

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  7. Timely topic as my wife has recently been looking for suggestions for punitive actions other than spanking for more minor behavioural issues or to stop such issues escalating. She is also keen to learn of any actions other than spanking that she can use when we are out or with people or for when she does not have the time or inclination to spank. I have suggested that a clearly articulated threat to spank if the first available opportunity would not only be effective but would also be quite hot! Not sure how that suggestion has landed so I’m looking for other ideas … TB.

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    1. Hi Sorry Tea Boy,
      "She is also keen to learn of any actions other than spanking that she can use when we are out or with people or for when she does not have the time or inclination to spank." That was exactly where I was going with the alternative punishment thing. Perhaps it is not practical to spank you right when an offense occurs, or maybe she doesn't feel like it. But if she uses things other than spanking, possibly she can still punish you - or maybe even just START to punish you - immediately, and then if she feels like it she can spank you when she has the opportunity (or not).

      -ZM

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    2. "I have suggested that a clearly articulated threat to spank if the first available opportunity would not only be effective but would also be quite hot!" - Great suggestion!

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  8. I have a few alternatives to spanking.

    Humbling is one I use frequently, although it's often done with spanking. One thing I often do is after a Disciplinary Session, I require husband to change out of his disciplinary dress and lingerie and into maid lingerie. The he fixes his makeup, puts on a maid dress and waits on me and my guests, if any. Of course, we run him, since he's only allowed to bring what we tell him to bring. We send him to get the coffee, he gets it, serves it, then we make him go get the biscuits. When he brings them, we make him go get cloth napkins. You get the idea. We all have bells we ring. Sometimes, I'll talk to him in that phony snooty accent you see on old movies.

    When I announce he's under Discipline, he has to put up certain signs on the wall. When someone who knows is at our home and sees it, she'll often make a comment about how "somebody's getting a spanking" or "somebody's bottom's going to be sore soon.".

    I also use chastity, but since that's really not the subject of this blog, I don't discuss it a lot here.

    I assign extra chores. Usually, we split the chores, since we both work. I wind up doing most of the household chores because he does most of the yard work and things that have to be fixed. I can make the chores he usually does harder. Instead of the power mower, I'll tell him to use the push mower. If he's been naughty, he "gets" to do the scrubbing, too. Sometimes, I'll make him do frivolous chores, like use a feather duster or polish a doorknob. I've never made him do a toothbrush on the floors, that's for frat rats.

    If it's a late afternoon Disciplinary Session, I'll make him take me someplace he doesn't like to go in the late morning or early afternoon. He especially hates the accessories boutique. so. of course, that's a frequent choice. I take my sweet time there, of course.

    I don't take things away from him, but I can make a "little rain fall". If he's going to drive his old car, I'll tell him good, I'll ride along and we can go to the accessories boutique. If he wants to go work on something, I'll tell him he can make me a paddle, make a new humbling sign or work on that discipline bench.

    I don't do much public, except at maybe gatherings or events. If I'm going to have him try on dresses or feminine clothing, it's only at boutiques that know us or have a large clientele of guys who dress up. I've seen some extreme public humiliation both on social media and other places.

    I saw one somewhere in the UK where this guy, and it was obvious he was a guy, was wearing a maid dress and petticoats. He went into a fast food place and ordered a sandwich. He got it and his Mistress came in behind him, yelled at him, dumped the sandwich out of the bag, ground it on the floor then made him get on his knees and eat it right off the floor. I'd never go to extremes like that. I sup0pose some people are into that, but if I even thought of those extremes, husband would say the safeword. That's his way of letting me know something crosses a limit.

    I do use some other alternative disciplinary methods. They really aren't appropriate for this blog, so I don't discuss them much, either.

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    1. Hi Miss Cecelia,
      My wife and I do some things involving humiliation, but you are just way out of our league! But you do manage to pique my curiosity and spark my imagination.

      -ZM

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    2. "I saw one somewhere in the UK where this guy, and it was obvious he was a guy, was wearing a maid dress and petticoats. He went into a fast food place and ordered a sandwich. He got it and his Mistress came in behind him, yelled at him, dumped the sandwich out of the bag, ground it on the floor then made him get on his knees and eat it right off the floor. I'd never go to extremes like that. I sup0pose some people are into that, but if I even thought of those extremes, husband would say the safeword. That's his way of letting me know something crosses a limit." Yeah, that would be way over the line for me, too.

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    3. This would be well beyond my limits as well. I really don't ever envision any scenario where we would ever do anything truly in public (i.e. in front of many strangers). I guess the only thing I could ever think on that front is maybe (big maybe) if we were in some place far from home where we could be absolutely sure that we do not know anybody and would never see any of them again, then we might do something that would make clear to anyone paying attention that she was the one in control. Even in that case, I would never do anything that made bystanders feel too uncomfortable; maybe a little uncomfortable would be ok, but the scene described above seems super awkward to watch.

      -ZM

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    4. I agree about bystanders. I'm not a prude, and I don't want to let the most uptight person in the community determine what is and isn't "allowed." But, that doesn't mean there are some boundaries, even if they may be hard to define.

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  9. We us alternatives in 2 situations. 1. A spanking is not feasible/dont have time with the rug rats around or I am traveling. 2. When it will be more effective or reflective (but usually accompanied by a spanking)

    An example of an alternative is I have to get up early and do a "time out" while the house is silent with 0 distractions. It does not impose on the her or the family and I have time to reflect. It also sucks when I am traveling because I could be sleeping in peace and quite...but have to get up.
    Another is taking my phone away outside work hours for a few day or no alcohol for a certain number of days.

    We experimented with others but those stuck. For us spanking is not the "end" in and of itself but a true "means" in the dynamic. If I need a spanking for spanking sake they are much more pleasant if I just ask...she has figured out by now what it takes to be a punishment versus fun.

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    1. My wife never tried things like taking away a phone or computer, but in the past I was married to my devices because of work. Not nearly as much today. I'm sure if she took them away today, it would be excruciating for a while. Though, it also might do me a lot of good, considering how much time I waste mindlessly surfing and reading on-line.

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  10. Hi Dan,
    I will probably write more as my thoughts come together on this topic. However, one first thought I had on this weeks topic was really quite a startling revelation. My wife and I have done a huge amount of activities that I would consider "alternative punishments." However, we have done almost none of them in an actual punishment context. Instead, we have played with many of the ideas we have had, and after doing them, we say "that would be super powerful in a real punishment."

    Some of the more typical alternative punishments used for parental discipline we have never tried, and I kind of have mixed feelings about them. For example, grounding or loss of privileges would probably be a pretty good punishment, and it obviously could be done in almost any setting. However, the thing I don't like so much about it is that it defeats one of the primary benefits of DD. Something happens (or maybe just bad attitude or something), confrontation, scolding, spanking, and minutes later, the matter is behind and the slate is clean. With some of the non-physical punishments, the punishment goes on for much longer. while that may also be effective since it provides a lot of time for contemplation about the infraction, it also could breed resentment.

    And on Danielle's comment: "If you were really a minor, there would be no reason for Anne to hide her authoritarian status from other people. So, if I was Anne, I would probably let some select group of people (maybe certain friends or family members) in on the secret that she wields real authority over you and expects you to obey her. Speaking to you in an authoritative way in the presence of certain people would certainly humble you, wouldn’t it? Then, if the people were curious, that could lead on to her revealing to them that she disciplines you, and maybe even to spanking you in front of a willing witness, as others have suggested." - I have thought a LOT about witnesses, including how much more impactful it would make a punishment, but somehow I never really thought of it as an alternative or additional punishment but obviously it is. Also, I love Danielle's way of thinking that if you are being punished like a child, there is no reason for your wife to hide it from others, since it probably wouldn't be if you were actually a child.

    -ZM

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    1. "My wife and I have done a huge amount of activities that I would consider "alternative punishments." However, we have done almost none of them in an actual punishment context. Instead, we have played with many of the ideas we have had, and after doing them, we say "that would be super powerful in a real punishment." That really is very interesting. Would the difference between the "play" and the "real punishment" be just a matter of severity or duration?

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    2. Hi Dan,
      Great question. I think there are several differences. First off, no question severity and duration may be greatly affected by it being a punishment. And that holds true whether it is a spanking, services, or some alternative punishment like I laid out in my posts below. But I think a much bigger difference is in her attitude and how the whole thing makes me feel. Somehow, just knowing something is a punishment makes it a punishment, and it changes how you view the whole thing. Imagine cleaning the kitchen after dinner. If you decide to do it because your wife needs some rest, it feels great. If on the other hand, she makes you do it because she is upset about something you did, the task is identical but the feelings are much, much different.

      -ZM

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    3. ZM wrote: >>>Also, I love Danielle's way of thinking that if you are being punished like a child, there is no reason for your wife to hide it from others, since it probably wouldn't be if you were actually a child.<<<

      That’s what I said, but I should point out that I haven’t really put that into practice myself. I told my friend Barb and Wayne’s sister Liz that I spank Wayne, and I have spanked him in front of Barb, but otherwise I have continued to be fairly secretive about it. Another point: I don’t think the reason I wanted to tell Barb and Liz about our FLR was to use shaming as a form of punishment for Wayne. I’m not sure how to explain this, but my desire for witnesses wasn’t punitive. It did it for my own sake to feel more fully empowered. Involving Barb was fun. And telling my sister-in-law deepened my relationship with her. But I don't think about it as an alternative form of punishment, if that makes sense.
      Danielle

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    4. “…My desire for witnesses wasn’t punitive. It did it for my own sake to feel more fully empowered. And … telling my sister-in-law deepened my relationship with her. “

      We discussed this several times both before and after my wife spanked me in front of her sister. My wife closely echoes how you feel. Although she also did want me to know she would do it and it was not just a threat - and satisfying her sisters curiosity was a factor too.

      I have also thought a lot about why I agreed to it despite the deep embarrassment and apprehension. Complicated creatures that we are. I probably had multiple motivations. But the big one was to publicly acknowledge that my wife really does spank me for discipline and it’s not just some kinky game. There is freedom in publicly acknowledging that even if that public is just a few people. Someone else seeing and knowing somehow validates it all.
      Alan

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    5. Hi Danielle,
      The way you described it makes perfect sense to me. Especially about how it made you feel empowered - which probably felt particularly good after you had likely felt disempowered by Wayne's unfortunate choices - and helped you to strengthen your relationship with your sister-in-law, and to have fun in the process!

      I too have never thought of having witnesses as punitive per se, though I do see how the threat of having witnesses could be perceived as punitive by the one being punished.

      And Alan, your comment strongly resonated with me: "I probably had multiple motivations. But the big one was to publicly acknowledge that my wife really does spank me for discipline and it’s not just some kinky game. There is freedom in publicly acknowledging that even if that public is just a few people. Someone else seeing and knowing somehow validates it all."

      I think, but don't know, that if my wife ever has a witness, the purpose will be not so much to shame me (spanking already does OK at that), but rather more to have this validation that the whole thing is real, and not just a kinky game. And of course it will give my wife a chance to show off her power a little bit, which I assume would be somewhat of a thrill for her.

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    6. Danielle here:

      Alan wrote: >>>We discussed this several times both before and after my wife spanked me in front of her sister. My wife closely echoes how you feel. Although she also did want me to know she would do it and it was not just a threat - and satisfying her sisters curiosity was a factor too.

      I have also thought a lot about why I agreed to it despite the deep embarrassment and apprehension. Complicated creatures that we are. I probably had multiple motivations. But the big one was to publicly acknowledge that my wife really does spank me for discipline and it’s not just some kinky game.<<<

      Alan, I agree with you that spanking is “discipline” and “not just some kinky game,” but it is, to some extent, a kinky game, even when it is discipline, isn’t it? When I revealed to Barb and Liz that I spank Wayne, they both assumed immediately that is must be a kinky game. I explained to them that it was more than a kinky game because it served real disciplinary purposes, but I felt I had to be honest and acknowledge that Wayne’s sexual kinks made DD possible. And when I asked Barb if she would like to witness a spanking, I wanted her to understand that she wouldn’t just be a witness to punishment, she would be participating in the enactment of one of Wayne’s sexual fantasies. Wayne may not have been sure that he wanted to enact that fantasy, due to the real embarrassment involved, but he admitted afterwards that it was an erotic experience, in spite of his ambivalent feelings. Barb admitted that she found it sexually exciting too, and having her there made it exciting to me too. We are indeed “complicated creatures.”

      I get the point about your wife wanting to satisfy her sister’s curiosity. Barb was curious too. I haven’t asked Wayne’s sister whether she would like to witness a spanking, but I have a feeling she might. I say that because she always alludes to it in some way when she speaks to us, asking whether Wayne has been a “good boy”, etc. I think she enjoys teasing her brother about it, but she is curious about the details of why and how I punish him. That makes me think that she might jump at the chance of witnessing a spanking. I am still tempted to make the offer, but I’m not sure it’s appropriate to embarrass Wayne that way in front of a sister. I don’t have a sister, but I think that if Liz was my sister instead of my sister-in-law, I would have made the offer by now. To be honest, I’m not entirely sure whether Wayne would consent to being spanked in front of his sister. I have teased him about doing it, but maybe it would be too much for him. I assume it would make a big difference to most men whether the witness was his sister or his sister-in-law because of the sexual dynamic of spanking. Am I right about that?

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    7. What is it about the private DD relationship that isn't real enough? Why should it require anything to make it "more" real. If anything, inviting a witness would make it more like a kinky game to me. I can see in Danielle's case that she involved her sister because she liked doing it. Whether it's kinky or not, I don't know, but just doing something because it feels good sounds pretty rational.

      Two witness scenarios I like to imagine are, 1. the injured party seeing justice enacted on their behalf and, 2. an unintended and uninvited witness which, of course, is a realistic and frightening possibility.

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    8. Hi Danielle,
      I know you were writing to Alan, but since I have already written too many messages on this thread, I figured why not one more? :-)

      "...spanking is ‘discipline’ and ‘not just some kinky game,’ but it is, to some extent, a kinky game, even when it is discipline, isn’t it?” - Probably, this depends on the people involved, but at least to most of the people contributing on this blog, the answer is likely yes, otherwise I just can’t see caring enough about it to put forth the effort to write. I know for me it is.

      “When I revealed to Barb and Liz that I spank Wayne, they both assumed immediately that is must be a kinky game. I explained to them that it was more than a kinky game because it served real disciplinary purposes, but I felt I had to be honest and acknowledge that Wayne’s sexual kinks made DD possible.” - The nice thing I see about your approach is that you allow the underlying sexual kink and the real disciplinary purposes co-exist. It doesn’t have to be “either/or,” but it can also be “and.” And I generally agree having a bit of a kink for it makes DD possible, or at least a lot more interesting and powerful. When my wife speaks to me using my deepest fantasy, it is easy for me to hear her.

      I think on actually having a witness, I am pretty close to where Wayne was. I really want it to happen, but also am rather scared of what it will be like if it actually does, particularly the feelings of embarrassment.

      I have no idea about how it would be to be spanked in front of my sister compared to sister-in-law, since I have no sister, but I assume it would be somewhat harder. I shared previously about my best female friend (who is now my wife’s good friend too. She is the one that I told about our weekly check-ins, and that there were consequences (though I didn’t actually say spanking), and so on. I think it would be harder for me if she were to witness a spanking, and interestingly enough, the first time I wrote about her, I said she feels more like my sister than friend, so maybe that is somewhat the same?

      -ZM

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    9. Hi Brett,
      “What is it about the private DD relationship that isn't real enough? Why should it require anything to make it ‘more’ real. If anything, inviting a witness would make it more like a kinky game to me.”

      I get where you are coming from. I know for me, I never really liked spanking pictures or stories depicting witnesses back before I was in a DD relationship. I don’t think it is that my desires are changing and becoming more extreme, but rather that I didn’t understand my fantasies all that well. When I actually started getting disciplinary spankings, for example, I realized that I don’t find the actual spankings very exciting while they are happening, only the before and after time. I had no idea of that. Also, I realized that my fantasy is not really about spanking, or even school-type paddling, which is what the core of my initial fantasy revolved around, but rather a more general “real punishment for real offenses.” I have had some pretty hard punishments, but only when witnesses started to come up as a subject on the blog last year did I see that the part that seemed to be missing was the emotional impact of having some of the embarrassment that would have undoubtedly accompanied the school spankings I so long wanted to experience, either from others knowing I am punished or even seeing a punishment. As long as spanking just stayed as a fantasy for me, I could imagine it to be exactly how I thought it would be, and my fantasies were basically the same for about 40 years. But since my fantasies have come to life, they have also become more dynamic; as I have experienced things, my fantasies have evolved a bit to somehow better fill these hard to understand needs that I seem to have.

      Will having a witness make it feel more real? I have no idea. But I do have an inkling that Alan is right that it somehow validates the experience a bit, like once someone else has seen it, you can’t really deny that you are a spanked husband. And it is my hope, however unrealistic it may or not be, that if I ever do have any witnesses, that they will truly see that even though it might be an outgrowth of my fantasies, the punishments are absolutely real and are always dreaded and to be avoided when possible.

      And both of your witness scenarios are pretty great. I am not sure which would be more mortifying…

      -ZM

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    10. Hi ZM. My experience with spanking as punishment is as a boy under parental authority, and whether it was seeing, hearing or hearing about it, witnesses were a difficult reality to be dealt with. The idea of witnessed punishments has also always been part of my fetish. Even as a small child, the social implications of spanking were at the center of my fascination. Plain and simple, it makes the idea more exciting because spanking becomes even more embarrassing. I don't think of a witness making it more real. It's an exposure of something real. It just makes it more difficult. Compare it to conventional sex. What couples do in the bedroom is no less real but typically not exposed.

      My kink wants authenticity. What makes discipline more real to me is when it's less contrived. The offense is an actual offense that warrants actual punishment. The ritual is convincingly punitive without obvious catering to sexual desires. Like Danielle describes with Wayne, asking someone to witness my punishment relies totally on my kink. On the one hand, it would be exciting but, on the other, I'm not sure I could go through with it, and if I did, I think it would make the scene feel very kinky. That's why, in theory, I much prefer the witness scenarios I described above.

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  11. And here are some alternative/additional physical punishments that we have thought about or used in some form or another. Technically corner time isn't really physical punishment, but it can be uncomfortable, especially if you have to hold a coin to the wall with your nose.

    - Corner time - we have actually used this one a lot in actual punishment sessions
    - Mouth soaping - we have used this, but it was in more of a made-up scene
    - Early bedtime - every time my wife mentions this she laughs, so probably it's coming...
    - Hand strapping or caning - super painful, plus you are face to face which is different
    - Kneeling on rice - pretty uncomfortable pretty fast
    - Figging (ginger stuck in backside) - good spanking additive, since prevents clenching
    - Enema - This one has been mentioned many times in forum. Have equipment but never done.
    - Icy hot on balls - This is a pretty good silent punishment. Wears off after 20-30 minutes
    - Spanking with nettles - spanking with no impact or noise. Just-spanked burn for 6 hours
    - Capsaicin cream on bottom - burns like a spanking. Makes it hard to sit down especially
    - Diaper - my wife used as part of a role-play game. Very humiliating.
    - Pegging - we did as part of a role-play. I don't like it so it is a good punishment

    Anyway, it is late here, so I will see what else rolls across my mind in the coming days as others write, and may chime in again.

    -ZM

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    1. I've read in a few places how English governesses used things like Icy Hot (they didn't have that back then, but there was something like it), Capsiacin or even nettles in the underpants as a disciplinary measure when they caught one of their charges pleasuring himself. I mentioned those to husband and got the immediate safeword.

      I tried figging, but it did not burn him back there even when he clenched.

      I do use corner time before and after a Disciplinary Session. I wanted him in 6" heels when he was in the corner, but he just couldn't do it for the time I'd decreed him to be in the corner. He can do it in 5" heels, but he's uncomfortable after a while. I've never tried making him hold something to the wall with his nose, but I've read about it.

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    2. Hi Miss Cecilia,
      I have experienced all these things, and they have a lot in common, but are not the same.

      Icy Hot (or Ben Gay) - Gets hot over about the first minute or two, and then ramps in intensity until the 5-10 minute mark. It can feel pretty unbearable. After about 20 minutes, the burning feeling is almost completely gone.

      Capsaicin - this one is even more interesting in how it works. I would never even consider putting it anywhere near genitals. The interesting thing about capsaicin is it seems to be largely heat activated. So put it on a well spanked bottom and make him wear something over it, and he will find it about impossible to sit down for more than about 1 minute at a time. Also, while the bulk of the burning feeling is over in a few hours, it can reactivate over the next day or so, like especially if taking a hot shower.

      Nettles - probably have a bad rap. In fact, they burn intensely when first applied and leave painful looking raised welts, but then it turns into kind of a throbbing hot feeling. I think it most closely mimics the feeling of having just been spanked hard. And the most amazing thing to me is after 5-7 hours, not only is the pain gone, but also all the marks, and it is exactly like nothing ever happened. Anyway, I would recommend the experience, since it is not nearly as bad as people make it out to be. BTW, nettles in the underpants sounds very uncomfortable.

      Figging - it totally depends on the ginger, how fresh it is, and so on. I don't find it to be all that much burning, but others claim that it can be. For me, it is more of a warmness that just feels very unfamiliar.

      Corner time in heels sounds quite tiring and uncomfortable. I will probably find out sometime, since my wife seems a bit interested in things like this.

      -ZM

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    3. We have tried corner time, and before experiencing it I assumed it would be very annoying and aggravating. But, for some reason it's not and is almost totally ineffective as a punishment. I think it's that I've done so much meditation over the years, I just kind of slip into that mindset and don't really mind the isolation or downtime of the corner.

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    4. I think corner time is more for the benefit of the spanker so she can sit and admire her handiwork, although not being allowed to rub is uncomfortable.

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    5. Apparently some disciplinarians do receive considerable satisfaction from the view and what it implies (I own his ass). But speaking as someone who has mostly experienced it as a prelude to the serious spanking, I will say it has done a lot for me to make the whole discipline experience smoother and more effective. Corner time gives me time to cool down if I need that and prepare to accept punishment with an attitude she wants. It is really a transition from my normal alpha take charge personality to obedience and submissiveness. She does use post spanking cornertime also but not frequently. But when she does it has enhanced the whole experience but its effects on me are very different than doing corner time before a spanking. But before or after it should not be more than 10 or 15 minutes long
      Alan

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    6. "I think corner time is more for the benefit of the spanker so she can sit and admire her handiwork, although not being allowed to rub is uncomfortable."

      YES! One of its purposes is JUST SO I can admire my handiwork and my guests, if there are any, can too. I encourage them to make comments on it or on husband's situation in general, as it's a method of humbling him. It's why sometimes I'll go pull his panties back down once he's in the corner. If I've decreed sheer panties, often the red on his bottom shows through, so I might leave them up.

      I forbid the rubbing because I want him to feel the full message of my displeasure that I just delivered to his bare bottom.

      I also expect husband to reflect on his misbehavior, to anticipate or reflect on the severity of the discipline he's about to get or just got and, like Alan, to get him in the proper apologetic submissive and obedient mood. It's why husband usually gets corner time both before and after a Disciplinary Session. Since he anticipates the painful experience he's about to have, when I call him out of the corner to give him his pre spanking lecture/scolding, instead of grumbling or complaining, he's begging and pleading.

      Husband says the 5" heels become uncomfortable after a while in the corner, but, he can stay on them for the entire session and both corner times. He also can wait on us in them. Sometimes I will have him in a chair for his corner time. Then I can decree 6" heels or even ballet boots, since he's not going to be on his feet for too long during the session. What's funny is he can actually walk better in ballet boots than 6" heels, but he can't stand in either of them for long.

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  12. As I've said many times now, Hazel uses grounding as much as spanking and I hate it far more. She actually broke some new ground (no pun intended) by grounding me in public this past weekend. Right in the middle of a store. Yeah, that was just wonderful. Obviously, I'll be more on my toes regarding the issue that caused it to begin with.

    - Trent

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    1. I understand some of the desires for more inventive punishments, but as soon as it feels like a sexual act to me, it loses much of its power to humble me. Physical pain alone is not the experience I seek. Sexual humiliation distracts from the idea of domestic discipline. If the punishment doesn't strike me as what a parent or teacher would do, it becomes a different scene, probably like BDSM. Of course, there are countless ways to cause physical pain, and to humiliate someone into obedience or submission, but good punishment to me is in the form of what is considered traditional discipline.

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    2. I understand some of the desire for more inventive punishments, but as soon as it feels like a sexual act to me, it loses much of its power to humble me. Physical pain alone is not the experience I seek. Sexual humiliation distracts from the idea of domestic discipline. If the punishment doesn't strike me as what a parent or teacher would do, it becomes a different scene, probably like BDSM. Of course, there are countless ways to cause physical pain, and to humiliate someone into obedience or submission, but good punishment to me is in the form of what is considered traditional discipline.

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    3. Hi Brett,
      I think I understand pretty well where you are coming from, since I think it pretty well describes exactly how I felt about everything until about 5 1/2 years ago, when my DD relationship started. Before that, I very much wanted everything to be very parental, my primary focus was on spanking, and I certainly didn't like anything that involved anything seeming very BDSMish, like any outfits or whatever.

      However, my feelings have changed significantly since then. Probably the biggest change for me was after experiencing a few actual punishment spankings. I now realize that at least for me, a punishment spanking is different because it is a punishment. So my wife could spank me two different times with the same paddle, the same number of strokes, at exactly 72% strength (or whatever), at the same time of day, and so on. But if one of them was a real punishment for a real infraction, and the other was some sort of play, even with everything else being identical they would be worlds apart, night and day.

      I know you said before that your wife spanks you, but you have never been spanked as punishment. Is that still correct? If so, it is possible that some of your feelings would change if that happens. Or perhaps not, since we are all wired differently.

      Also, regarding sexuality, one thing that probably makes my wife and I different from many is we have no qualms mixing sexuality and punishment. Some people are very careful to keep them apart, like not making love on the day a punishment occurs and so on. For us, a big part of what makes DD work so very well for us is that it is tied into my fantasies and has such erotic undertones. I find it interesting that of all the traditional punishments you have listed, the one that you would would choose if you could only have one would be spanking, and it is by far the most sexual of any of the traditional punishments.

      Anyway, just trying to keep the conversation going. I know that we are all very different in our approach to DD and we have different experiences with the feelings surrounding it. I am glad for our diversity, since it makes the conversations more interesting and thought provoking.

      -ZM

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    4. "I find it interesting that of all the traditional punishments you have listed, the one that you would would choose if you could only have one would be spanking, and it is by far the most sexual of any of the traditional punishments." - That's a really interesting observation, and I don't doubt it does explain (a) both the attraction (to some of us) to spanking as a form of adult discipline; and (b) some of the resistance among some to using anything other than spanking as punishment.

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    5. ZM: "I know you said before that your wife spanks you, but you have never been spanked as punishment. Is that still correct? If so, it is possible that some of your feelings would change if that happens. Or perhaps not, since we are all wired differently."

      I've spanked my wife many times as part of sexual foreplay. Her spanking me in that kind of scenario is not exciting for either of us, so we don't do it.

      The idea of spanking is connected to my sexuality. I've never had reason to doubt that. If the idea of it wasn't my fetish, I probably would have little to no interest in DD, however, without the circumstances that require punishment, I'm not sure I would be interested in spanking. Disciplinary spanking is at the center of everything, and the primary attraction is emotional pain — the physical pain is only in service of the mental anguish. The problem with trying to inject anything sexual that isn't my fetish into the scene is that it alters the required psychology. I'm excited by other things than spanking, but they're outside the discipline fetish. No reason not to pursue other interests; it's just that they don't belong in my scene of punishment.

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    6. Brett: "If the idea of it wasn't my fetish, I probably would have little to no interest in DD, however, without the circumstances that require punishment, I'm not sure I would be interested in spanking." - This sounds exactly like what I might write, since it is just how I feel.

      I understand the feelings you have about not injecting anything sexual, because as I said, I too was very much a DD purist until several years ago when I actually became a spanked husband. As I saw what turns my wife on, and as I realized how interesting it was to explore different things together, so my thinking has changed quite dramatically. But still I totally understand where you are coming from, since I spent most of my life feeling exactly the same, and probably given different circumstances or a different wife, I would still feel the same as I always had.

      -ZM

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    7. ZM, it could also have something to do with whatever experiences forged the obsession with discipline to begin with. I have a pretty narrow fetish, and a model for what defines it. It seems unlikely it would ever change, but then I haven't tested it through a DD relationship. Maybe it could get old, and new forms of expression would become desirable.

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    8. It doesn't get old but it does evolve as each partner gets to know themselves and each other better.
      Alan

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    9. Danielle here:

      Brett wrote: >>>I understand some of the desires for more inventive punishments, but as soon as it feels like a sexual act to me, it loses much of its power to humble me. Physical pain alone is not the experience I seek. Sexual humiliation distracts from the idea of domestic discipline. If the punishment doesn't strike me as what a parent or teacher would do, it becomes a different scene, probably like BDSM. Of course, there are countless ways to cause physical pain, and to humiliate someone into obedience or submission, but good punishment to me is in the form of what is considered traditional discipline.<<<

      I strongly agree with you on this from my perspective as disciplinarian. When I agreed to discipline my husband, I instinctively drew upon my experiences as a mother, so I decided to use the same kinds of punishments that I had used to discipline my sons: grounding, loss of privileges, extra chores, spanking, etc. The main difference between disciplining my husband and disciplining my sons is that spanking features more prominently in my spousal toolkit, for obvious reasons. Because I am channeling maternal instincts, I would never use sexual humiliation as a form of discipline for my husband. Intentionally humiliating a child as punishment would be abhorrent, so I don’t do it to my husband. Well, I suppose spanking him involves an element of sexual humiliation, but humiliation isn’t the whole point of a spanking. It is more like a by-product.

      I do engage in various forms of humiliation play with my husband in private, but that is sex, not discipline. We have played with feminization as a form of sexual humiliation, and I have sometimes teased my husband that I should make him wear one of his frilly, feminine aprons when we have guests. But that’s just teasing to turn him on. I suppose I could actually punish my husband, the way Miss Cecilia does, by forcing him to put his feminization kink on display. That would be punitively embarrassing for him. But in my mind that would constitute cruel and unusual punishment, so it goes against the maternal instincts that guide me as disciplinarian.

      As I write this, I am conscious of inconsistency. When I spanked Wayne in front of my friend Barb, I made him wear a cute, feminine apron. But in my mind, that touch of humiliation play in the presence of a willing participant wasn’t punitive. The spanking, which was harsh enough to make him cry, was the punishment. The feminine apron was playful rather than punitive, at least in my mind. I should add that I only involved Barb in our humiliation play because she was understanding about Wayne’s kinks, so it didn’t truly diminish him in her eyes. I would never humiliate my husband in front of people who would ridicule him in a scornful way. That WOULD be punitive. But it would go against my maternal instincts as a disciplinarian.

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    10. Danielle, humiliation is a word that gets used a lot in connection with disciplinary spanking, and then in the larger scope of punishment in general. I believe when most people hear or use the word, they're thinking about something negative that causes a loss of respect and damages the ego. Because of that, I prefer to use other similar words like humility, humbling, embarrassment and shame. I can see all of these feelings as temporary and not an attack on one's character. Humility and humbling, at least when I was young, was considered a good thing, the antidote for arrogance or overconfidence, or being "too big for one's britches," which was not a good thing. Shame or embarrassment can be a feeling of humiliation, but it's shame about the failure being punished, not a diminishing of the person who failed in this particular instance.

      Though my thoughts were at times quite negative, I always viewed my parents' discipline as well-intentioned. I must also recognize that punishment was by design meant to shame and humble to some degree. Maybe in accepting that, I'm just a sign of those times. Was I damaged in any way by it? That might depend on who you ask, but I believe I would respond well to my wife being parental in such a way as to bring about feelings of humility, shame and embarrassment as I described. The way that works best is for her to be channeling maternal instincts, and to be protective of her husband's psychological well-being as you are for Wayne. Venturing into these areas of being led takes a huge amount of trust.

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  13. Enjoyed reading all this.

    In my case I’m interested in using spanking to enforce a disciplined lifestyle, so there isn’t a lot else to give. In the era of the highly publicized isolation of the middle-aged, I don’t think either of us would want to imperil what friendships we are maintaining with a grounding. Perhaps losing a cheat day or cheat meal—but spankings are already being handed out for cheating at diets! It’s a conundrum.

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    1. "I don’t think either of us would want to imperil what friendships we are maintaining with a grounding." Good point.

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  14. I feel bad about not contributing to this discussion, seeing that Dan quoted me prominently in his post. I have been away from home and offline. But anyway, I don’t have much to say on the topic of alternative punishments that I haven’t already said. However, rereading my previous comments about what I would do “if I was Anne”, I feel a little embarrassed because I think it was presumptuous of me to give that advice to another woman. I would also add that in that incident when I berated Wayne in front of the other couple, I guess the embarrassment for Wayne was like a kind of punishment, but I didn’t think of it as punishment. It was a spontaneous outburst of anger, not a considered consequence, which is how I think of “punishment”.
    Danielle

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    1. I don't think it was presumptuous at all. Giving and receiving advice is the whole purpose of this blog.

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    2. Hi Danielle,
      I can see how you would not consider your angry outburst as a punishment, even though the embarrassment may have felt pretty punishing to him. The more I think about DD, the more convinced I am that a bruised ego is much more painful and memorable than a bruised backside.

      This week, I re-read your account of when you punished Wayne in front of Barb, since it has been part of the discussion off and on the past few weeks. For the first time, what stuck out to me was the part where you made him tell her what he had done. I’m sure I read that before, but as I read it this time, I really thought about just how embarrassing it would be not only to have a witness, but to have to tell them what you did to deserve being spanked. I think someone (perhaps KD or Alan?) said before that the feelings leading up to being spanked in front of a witness are much more poignant than the feelings once the spanking actually starts. And then I imagine that after the spanking ends, the embarrassment part starts to become more significant again. Anyway, thanks for your inspiration!

      -ZM

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    3. On a related note, we moved closer this week to someone knowing about our DD. My wife went out on Sunday with one of her close friends who is also an ex-colleague. They have a hard time getting together because her friend is only available on weekends, and normally my wife and I do things together then. She told her friend “I usually say ‘no’ for Sunday, but today I was free because my husband was not so good this week and is being punished." Her friend’s eyebrows went up and she was like "punished???" and then immediately asked what I had done (though not how I was being punished, so I guess she is not a spanko, hahaha). My wife said I had not followed my diet, and her friend started talking about how important weight is for health and that it is a good reason to be punished. My wife didn't say that she spanks me, just that I was home doing chores around the house while she was out, and that I had to have dinner ready for her when she got home. As they were getting ready to leave, her friend asked "are you telling him to start dinner?" and then when her friend dropped her off, she said"I hope your dinner will be ready" or something like that.

      Anyway, this was significant for several reasons. First, this is the first time that my wife has told anyone that she punishes me. She has told people about spanking, but always in a joking manner so they either think it is just a joke, or that maybe we play role-play games or something. Secondly, her friend, upon hearing it was for weight, took it very seriously, rather than as some fun game. And finally, her friend brought it up several more times, by referring twice to me cooking dinner, which shows at least a little bit of curiosity.

      In the past I told a mutual friend about our weekly check-ins and that there are consequences for missing goals, but I have not ventured over to the spanking side other than a brief joking mention of it, like “I had better get things done if I don't want a spanking,” and we both laughed.

      At the same time, my wife has now told 3 or 4 of her friends as well as her sister about spanking me, coming in the room with a belt, etc. But it is always told in a joking way and they have had a lot of fun laughing about it. Probably some believe that my wife actually spanks me, but only as a game.

      We realized that it is easier for me to tell people about the accountability part but hard for me to tell anyone anything about her spanking me; If I tell someone about the accountability part, it may make me seem undisciplined, but it is admirable that I am committed to continually growing and improving. If I tell someone about my wife spanking me, even for play, it might make me appear weak.

      And my wife finds it easy to tell others about spanking me, but not that she punishes me for real things. If she tells her friends about spanking in a lighthearted, joking way, it makes her seem like a great wife who spices things up in the bedroom, but if she tells anyone that she punishes me for real things, they might think she is kind of a bitch, even if they understand that I have asked her for this.

      If her friend brings this up again, or if my wife tells her I am being punished again, it would be quite easy to tell her friend everything simply by saying “better a sore ass from my belt than being dead from a heart attack” or something like that. Considering how much her friend was stressing the importance of weight loss, she would probably see the logic in this.

      My wife also said that it would be easy to take things a notch further with our mutual friend who I told about the check-ins, simply by if the friend were to invite my wife to meet as she often does, to go alone, and when our friend asks about me (which is inevitable) to say “he couldn’t come because he is being punished” and see where it goes from there.

      Anyway, it was an interesting development. I think we will probably at least get to the point where someone knows everything, and as for actually having a witness, we will have to see.

      -ZM

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    4. Wow! While you see her asking about "why" you were punished and not "how" as an indication she isn't into spanking, it could just be she is smart and subtle and went for the question that was more likely to draw your wife out a bit at a time. The fact that she came back to the "cooking dinner" punishment several times certainly seems to indicate she was pretty interested in the whole idea of you being punished.

      It's interesting that you find it easier to tell people about the accountability part but not the spanking part. While whenever I've told anyone anything it has been about the two together (and I've really only told one person who isn't already in a DD or D/s relationship of some sort), I think it would be easier for me to talk about spanking than accountability, because I'm more embarrassed by the hierarchy and submission to authority than by the spanking, especially since many would interpret the latter as just a bit of kink.

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    5. ZM, your wife sounds like such a cool lady! I think that kind of joking is a great way to warm up to the DD topic at the right time. You’re blessed. :)

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    6. Hi MW,
      Thanks! My wife is very cool. I am blessed in so many ways and am very thankful for her. She is very calm and reasonable in every situation, she is honest, she works hard, she cares for others and treats everyone with kindness and respect, she is intelligent, she is beautiful, she loves to laugh, and this list goes on. It is a joy to share life with her and the fact that she fulfills all of my wildest fantasies is truly the icing on the cake.

      -ZM

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  15. Danielle wrote: “The embarrassment for Wayne was like a kind of punishment, but I didn’t think of it as punishment. It was a spontaneous outburst of anger, not a considered consequence, “

    It would be interesting to know Wayne’s perception because to me it seemed like a severe scolding followed by a severe spanking and I certainly would feel I had been punished.

    Dan (above) referred to it as a “complementary form of punishment” But you seem to feel for it to be a punishment, it should be in your words “a considered consequence”. I think I get your point but that is really an interesting turn of phrase.

    If a woman administered an on the spot spanking or issued an on the spot grounding out of frustration or even anger, wouldn’t that also be a punishment despite spending much time considering it before acting?

    Alan

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  16. I suppose you are right, Alan. Just because I didn't think of the public scolding as a punishment on the spur of the moment doesn't mean it didn't function as one for my husband. And I definitely believe that public scolding could be used in a calculated way for disciplinary purposes.
    Danielle

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  17. Danielle wrote : “I assume it would make a big difference to most men whether the witness was his sister or his sister-in-law because of the sexual dynamic of spanking. Am I right about that?”

    I believe your conclusion is absolutely correct but the rational for it may not be in every case. The reality of being spanked in front of my wife’s sister verses the specter of it being done in front of my own sister is jarringly different. And yes I think the sexual dynamic of spanking influences that. After all, to the extent adult spanking, even disciplinary spanking, is sexual – involving a sister (or brother) has incestuous overtones which repel most people.
    But I think it goes beyond sibling sexuality to touch on the very many complex emotions and life events that characterize the nuclear family experience. More concretely, sibling relationships are rooted in childhood even though they grow into adult relationships for most. My wife’s sister has only known me as an adult and “sees” me that way and now knows me to be an adult who is spanked by his wife and subject to her authority.
    Maybe it would be OK for my sister to see that too and from conversations here and elsewhere I have the impression there are at least a few sisters who would like to see their smart ass brother over his wife’s lap. But having that happen is not something I would be comfortable with so far. But I do keep an open mind about it. There have been too many times in our DD I have been surprised by events to think that I could never be about this
    Alan

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    1. I love your insightful comments, Alan! I learn so much from your clearly deep understanding of psychology and sociology. Maybe you can explain to me how I can be so passionate about seeking and wanting that which I know I don't like getting at the time that I actually get it. Hahaha The whole "moth to the flame" sort of thing applies to almost everything involving DD, whether it be the actual punishments, tears, witnesses, or anything else.

      -ZM

      -ZM

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    2. Alan wrote: >>> Maybe it would be OK for my sister to see that too and from conversations here and elsewhere I have the impression there are at least a few sisters who would like to see their smart ass brother over his wife’s lap. <<<

      Yes to that! I would pay to see my big shot know-it-all engineer brother humbled over my sister-in-law’s knee! LOL Maybe I should try to put the idea into her head.
      Danielle

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    3. ZM wrote: “Maybe you can explain to me how I can be so passionate about seeking and wanting that which I know I don't like getting at the time that I actually get it… the whole "moth to the flame" sort of thing”

      The closest I can come is that it opens a door to emotions and experiences inaccessible any other way. The fantasy is more understandable to me before that first real spanking which brings a dose of reality that must shock almost every would be naughty boy. But even after the first one –or the first few- like a resuscitated moth, we seek that same flame again and again. That’s the real mystery.
      Alan

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    4. Danielle wrote: “I would pay to see my big shot know-it-all engineer brother humbled over my sister-in-law’s knee!”
      There seem to be many sisters and at least some sisters-in –law who share your feelings about that. But your note does raise the question of how wide the appeal of female led DD might actually be. From this blog and others we know it works for many male spankos and females spankos who are F/M oriented (there are some of the latter, less than we would like but probably more than we think)
      And it works for some partners of spankos (like Danielle and others who have contributed to the blog in the past) –but who are not themselves spankos in the sense we use that term
      But what about “vanilla” couples both of whom begin with no interest, erotic or otherwise Would disciplinary spanking ever work for them? Of course I don’t know but I am thinking of the sexual and emotional rewards it brings to many couples – more and better sex, increased intimacy and vulnerability, sometimes intense intimacy, and a tool to manage behavior.

      But most vanillas will never know if it fits them if they don’t know it even exists. Maybe that where friends talking to friends or a witnessed spanking or coming across a public proponent of spanking like Jillian Keenan makes a difference. Or maybe it never works unless that spanko bell goes off in a person’s head first. I don’t know. But given the benefits it brings to many relationships in a world filled with troubled relationships – it is an interesting question
      Alan

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    5. Alan, I think the idea of DD, of either the female led or male led variety, would seem strange, maybe even wrong, to most “vanilla” couples. My comment about wanting to see my brother spanked was tongue-in-cheek. Well, not entirely tongue-in-cheek. I really would like to see it, but I don’t expect that ever to happen. Come to think of think of it, my feelings about my own brother may underlie the temptation I feel to invite Wayne’s sister to witness a spanking sometime. Liz’s relationship with her brother is somewhat similar to my relationship with my brother. That’s why she was gleeful to find out that I spank Wayne, I believe.

      As to vanilla couples discovering the advantages of disciplinary spanking, I think they would no longer be “vanilla” if they did. In my mind, adult/adult disciplinary spanking is actually kinkier than purely erotic spanking, if that makes sense.

      I would like to say that at this point, I don’t think of myself as a “non-spanko”. I was a non-spanko when my husband first approached me about it, but I have acquired a taste for it now.

      Danielle

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    6. “…at this point, I don’t think of myself as a “non-spanko”. I was a non-spanko when my husband first approached me about it, but I have acquired a taste for it now”.
      That sort of journey is what I had in mind. But I do agree with you fully that most vanilla folks would find DD “strange” or uncomfortable. That’s today.

      But as society continues to evolve, loosen up especially about sexual mores and opens itself to wider experience –who knows? Education and experience are history’s great levelers and the drivers of much cultural change. And figures like Killian are raising awareness among elites who drive much public opinion.
      BTW I don’t really consider you vanilla. In fact you are a model for what a woman can achieve who opens herself to experience, appliers her intellect to that experience, and is not afraid of change or challenge.
      Alan

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  18. Hi Dan,
    Since my wife told her friend on Sunday about me being punished, I have thought a lot about it, like after you discovered the DWC website and could think of little else. And there was another development, which I will outline below after addressing your comments.

    I agree that my wife’s friend asking why I was being punished (rather than how) was more subtle and could have been intended to keep my wife talking by asking easier questions. But since I have no reason to think that, I just assume that she was surprised to hear a wife to say that her husband was being “punished” (unusual anywhere but especially here) and just asked the first question that popped into her mind. However, I did take her mentioning it several other times to be a reasonably strong indicator that she was curious. Particularly since my wife didn’t bring it up again.

    You said: “I think it would be easier for me to talk about spanking than accountability, because I'm more embarrassed by the hierarchy and submission to authority than by the spanking, especially since many would interpret the latter as just a bit of kink.”

    I agree that most people think kinky play when they hear “spanking”, but I would find even fun kink hard to talk about since I am from a super conservative family; I find it almost impossible to talk about anything even closely related to sex, even mainstream activities. In fact, I get nervous talking about some things even with my wife, though we are very, very active by any measure.

    As far as hierarchy and submission to authority, in retrospect I was pretty vague in what I revealed. Back in August, I told my friend that I had asked my wife to hold me accountable, about our weekly check-ins, that my wife had given me a list of tasks to do (since she was out of town at the time), and so on. She said "and if it isn't done?" and I responded jokingly "that's when the spankings happen" and then we both laughed some, and that was that. Anyway, she might suspect that my wife spanks me, but I really framed it as my wife keeping me accountable to mutually agreed upon goals. My friend was clearly curious, since she has hinted about it multiple times since then. So I mostly talked about accountability, which is not all that unfamiliar of a concept, as it is used in many walks of life such as business, weight-watchers, etc. and didn’t really hit on the hierarchy or authority part, which I expect I would have found more embarrassing to talk about.

    Now to the latest development. On Tuesday, my wife went out for coffee with the friend she had told last October about a spanking role-play that she did for my birthday (my wife told her sister and this friend at the same time). My wife was clearly itching to tell about her time with her friend, so I of course told her she could tell me all about her day after dinner, even though I was dying of curiosity.

    When they were having coffee, the friend wanted to order dessert, and my wife suggested they split a piece of cheesecake, and the friend was like “of course, since you probably eat cheesecake at home a lot because your husband is always baking great things.” My wife responded that I am not doing that now because we are on a diet and I would be in trouble, and her friend said “and then you spank him with a belt?” and my wife said “yep,” with a completely straight face. She then went on to talk about our diet, and how she has a form that we fill out weekly for my weight, how well I followed the diet, my exercise, and other things. This was huge, since it is the first time anyone has been told that I am spanked for punishment.

    My wife said it would now be very easy to tell this friend everything: how this is rooted in my fantasies, how I asked her to use give me real punishments for real offenses, and how she has the authority to punish me at will. She went on to say that it would also be very easy to ask this friend to help make some punishment much more powerful by witnessing it.

    Who knows what will happen, but what a huge week!

    -ZM

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    1. Wow! That is really huge! Is this a friend you see very often? It will be interesting to see how she acts the next time you see her.

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  19. Hi ZM,
    Good luck to you. I know you want this to happen and it might happen sooner than you expect. Your wife is working hard to give you something you want and she probably believes you need. Just prepare to be surprised ( in a good way) with how it all unfolds
    Alan

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  20. I will stick completely To Brett and Danielle's point of view. I see Dannielle's outburst as a self-punishment, pure moment of sadness, a painfully, humiliating scene with HER as the only victim, with friends as unwilling witnesses, collateral victims. (In my case, alcool would make it enen worst).
    In a real FLR, I would suggest writing.
    I mean Lines writing. No spanking at this time let's say 1000 lines, no options,no other choice, not an "essay", no "apologies"... You see the idea : absolutely no pleasure from producing a good and somehow enjoyable artistic text, wich could be in itself a piece of reward for the (really) bad boy ! 1000 lines in a week, 2 or 3 hours of boredom and meditation killing precious "freetime" everyday. No phone, no PC, no talking, alone in a room. And bedtime at 10 p.m. The return of severe bedtime spankings could figure the beginning of her forgiveness. Just my 2 cents about real consequences for hurting deeply the real person you love so much, with just my smart mouth, in real life. A real punihment, not a fantasy scene . I would do anything to avoid this kind of situation.

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