"He that is good for making excuses is seldom good for anything else." ― Benjamin Franklin
Hello all. Welcome back to the Disciplinary Couple’s Club. Our weekly gathering of men and women who are in, or would like to be in, Domestic Discipline relationships.
I hope you all had a great week. Mine was, in a word, boring. I had this vision that, once work was less of an issue, all these other interests would arise and really bloom. So far, it’s not really working out that way, and last week I found myself spending way too much time bingeing television shows (though, to be fair, TV is pretty damn good these days. Did you watch the Emmys? Go Ted Lasso!) and reading books I’ve read before. I’m not sure what’s going on. The Zen, spiritual side of my brain tells me that I just need to ride it out; that maybe after a couple of decades of being crazy busy, I need to really experience boredom before I can move on from it. The other side of my brain says this is no way to live and that I need to get off my lazy ass and do something.
We did have a good discussion
last week about tears, though it seemed to draw less interest than I thought it
might. Maybe it’s one of those topics
that fascinate me but not that many others, or it may be that it’s a topic that’s
hard to hit from a truly new angle. In any
event, for those who are interested in getting to--or bringing about—tears, the
comments seemed to suggest two factors were paramount:
- the wife letting the husband know she wants him to cry; and
- a spanking of sufficient duration that he believes it will never end and, as a result, finally just surrenders to it.
While I’m going to move on to a different topic for this week, I’m happy to keep talking about “tears” if anyone has any additional thoughts.
This week’s topic came up because of a little personal failure I had over the weekend. I won’t go into details, and it wasn’t a huge problem, but it involved telling myself I’d show some self-control in a particular area, but then I just failed to do it. Again, it wasn’t a big deal in the scheme of things, but it just gets old when the same old temptations win out time and time again. It occurred to me that maybe the only way to motivate myself to deny such a temptation when it is presented is – zero tolerance.
In fifteen years of doing DD, we’ve never really had a “zero tolerance” issue. I thought for a while that her issue with failing to lock doors when I left might become one, then she let a couple of incidents slide. Interestingly, while I often bemoan my lack of willpower, I have successfully imposed a few “zero tolerance” rules on myself. The example with the most staying power is tobacco. In high school and college, I was a regular smoker and user of tobacco, and nicotine was my one and only true physical addiction. I tried to quit several times, and a few times I succeeded for a few weeks. But, I always started again. When I finally quit, I went cold turkey, and in thirty years I’ve never had another cigarette. I just can’t. I know myself well enough, if I had one cigarette on a special occasion, a week later I would be having “just one” a day, then one would become three, then three would become a pack a day habit.
I’m not sure “zero tolerance” needs to be for big things, like ending a tobacco addiction. It seems like it might even work better for small things (like locking doors?), that don’t really involve deeply rooted habits or personal identity issues but are, instead, things that are somewhat important to one or both spouses but are not (yet) front of mind for the offender.
A few weeks ago we talked about severity and consistency, and everyone seemed to concur that most of the Disciplinary Wives exercise a fair amount of discretion in determining whether any particular offense should be punished. Sometimes they choose to just let things slide, even if some some bit of bad behavior is agreed to be “spankable.”
On the other hand, are there some behaviors that are treated with zero (or very little) tolerance? That result in a spanking every single time? If there is such an issue in your DD relationship, is it an issue that is important to her, or to you, or one that you both agree should be punished every time? If she doesn’t treat any issue with such little tolerance, do you wish she would?
I hope you all have a great week.
Interrupting or talking over her is zero tolerance and she will call me on it every time.
ReplyDeleteDanielle here:
DeleteGlenmore wrote: >>>Interrupting or talking over her is zero tolerance and she will call me on it every time.<<<
Yes! I was about to say I don’t believe in zero tolerance, but Glenmore reminds me of the bad habit Wayne used to have of interrupting or speaking over me. For that I have zero tolerance. Fortunately, I think I have cured Wayne of that behavior once and for all. He did it one too many times when another couple—an old buddy of Wayne’s from high school days and his wife—were at our place. I lost it because Wayne had ignored so many previous warnings, telling me either that I was imagining it or that I was overreacting. I’m afraid I made a real scene, yelling at Wayne for about a solid minute. At the end of my rant, Wayne was red faced and speechless. The other couple were dumbstruck too. I suppose they were embarrassed. I didn’t say what I was going to do to Wayne once our guests left, but I might as well have: my rant was pretty much a verbal spanking, and Wayne was visibly shaken by it. Shortly afterwards our guests made their excuses and left. Maybe they thought I was a bitch, but I was too angry to care. Once we were alone, I ordered Wayne to pull down his pants, and I gave him several licks with the heavy strap, swinging it with the full force of my anger. Then I sent him to bed in the guest room. The next morning Wayne was practically in tears when he apologized, and he promised not to do it anymore. I haven’t had to punish him for that since then, but if his bad habit started to come back, I would nip it in the bud. Another thought occurs to me. I have said that I sometimes like to use other forms of discipline than just spanking. But I have to say that on that occasion taking the belt to Wayne’s backside felt like the only appropriate way to vent my anger. Well, that and yelling at him in front of friends. That incident happened before anyone knew that I spank Wayne. If it had happened more recently, I might not have been so careful to hide from the other couple what I intended to do to Wayne after they left.
While I still have the occasional 'slip up' , my wife has basically cured me of that bad habit , and I find myself very aware now to listen when she speaks and wait until she finishes.
DeleteLast time I did it we also had company , she just paused and said 'Excuse me I'm speaking! Didn't we just discuss this? " and continued.
That shut me up alright . I knew what she really meant with a 'discussion'but luckily our guests did not.
We did have another 'discussion'when they left as she does have zero tolerance for that and I know it.
When I read this, it makes me feel guilty, so I have a feeling I do this sometimes as well. I am going to ask my wife, since I definitely don't want to be this way.
Delete-ZM
Danielle, your comment raises another angle on the "zero tolerance topic." My post was focused mainly on the consistency aspect of zero tolerance, i.e. punishes something whenever it happens without exception. Your comment also addresses the issues of severity and will, i.e. the authoritarian's will to do whatever it takes to fix the problem. Among the two punishments you doled out to Wayne--chastising him in front of his friend and then a spanking--I personally would have been far more impacted by the public scolding. I see that as an example of doing whatever it takes. It's why I personally believe your focus on keeping non-spanking punishments as core disciplinary tools is right if the goal is really to uproot a bad behavior.
DeleteI agree with you 100% Dan , my wife scolding me in front of our friends was way more effective than a spanking to cure me of this habit , although the threat of a spanking still adds more weight to it.
DeleteNowadays she tends to use this approach more often and I admit that it works well for her.
She has stopped short of announcing a spanking ( so far ) but the threat is always lurking.
“…my wife scolding me in front of our friends was way more effective …although the threat of a spanking still adds more weight to it.”
DeleteAccounts similar to this one seem common, and perhaps are becoming more common reflecting just the normal maturing of a female led DD relationship. My wife originally never scolded me in a public setting (one special witness excluded) but it happens often enough now I watch out for it when we are in public.
These always stop short of the severe scolding Danielle described above and short of actually threatening or promising a “spanking”. But a couple of times it felt like she was close which in private are things like “Do you need a spanking” or “Do I need to spank you”. I think if she actually said something like that I would blush so deeply our friends would know she wasn’t kidding. A part of me is ready for this to happen someday, but another part is not. But as I look back at how her willingness to confront my behavior in public has gradually increased, I wonder if it isn’t inevitable.
Alan
I can't think of an example of Anne scolding me in public - so far. As I've talked about here, there have been a couple of instances in which we had family members over and she alluded to the possibility of a spanking if I didn't do something as instructed, but: (1) people were milling about, and I don't know that anyone heard her (though I don't know that they didn't); and (2) it wasn't spoken in a tone that would make it clear it was a serious threat and not her kidding.
DeletePublic scolding, or her saying anything in front of anyone at all so maybe an individual rather than in a more public situation is a line that she has not crossed, so I am only guessing what it would be like. But it certainly seems that it would be very embarrassing, especially if there was any clear or implied reference to spanking. And if it were coupled with an actual spanking after that, I am pretty sure that I would be very careful to not repeat what caused it.
DeleteAnd regarding Alan's comments specifically: "I think if she actually said something like that I would blush so deeply our friends would know she wasn’t kidding." - I am almost sure this would be the case for me too. And not because any friends might suspect much, other than the few we have hinted to in a more joking manner, but rather because anytime anything tied to spanking or punishment comes up, my heart rate accelerates, I probably start to sweat, and even my speech changes while talking, so I just can't act natural at all.
"A part of me is ready for this to happen someday, but another part is not." - Pretty much how I feel about each and every thing in DD/FLR that has not yet happened.
"But as I look back at how her willingness to confront my behavior in public has gradually increased, I wonder if it isn’t inevitable." - I have seen no increase in her willingness to confront my behavior in public, but I can certainly say that these relationships have a way of drifting towards increasing expectations, strictness, and also openness, so it may well be inevitable for me and for most of us as well, just that we aren't as far down that path yet.
-ZM
-ZM
Yes. I usually get spanked for not closing out things on my to-do list that Michelle and I both agreed need to be done. So that isn’t without my buy-in into what needs done, and there’s usually warning that I’m getting close to being in trouble.
ReplyDeleteBut the one thing that every-single-time will earn me a hard trip over her knees, is computer gaming. I confessed to her a while back that I have a hard time limiting my gaming if I’m involve in it at all, and that it winds up consuming hours of my life that - with as busy as I am - wind up not only not being relaxing, they mess with me being able to get things done at work, at home, at my part time business, and wind up with me staying up late at night. So, it’s wound up being a zero-tolerance issue.
Our kids don’t know that I get disciplined, but they do know Michelle does not endorse my gaming. One of my teenagers, recently, told her (right in front of me) that I had been gaming again. That didn’t go over well.
After my kid left the room, she had me bring out my iPad and checked my screen time. That was mortifying. I wound up spending the next two mornings over her knee for very hard sessions with the bath brush.
When I focus on how unfair it feels that she has set rules for me, I can get resentful, and it leads me down a resentful path. But if I reflect on the fact that on some things I seriously lack self discipline, and that I can make some seriously bad decisions when I’m not under her discipline, it makes it much easier to accept that I need to obey those rules, and to be grateful that she loves me enough to set those rules and that she disciplines me when I don’t obey.
Hi Chris,
DeleteI don't really feel resentment ever, but I don't like being told what to do. On the other hand, I too lack self discipline in some areas, and it is me who asked her to control things that she sees that need controlling. And to further confuse things, I also do like the feeling when she takes charge, even though I don't like being told what to do! Oh how confusing us people are!
I don't do gaming, but I do have a very hard time limiting my time in front of a computer screen. It is easy for me to just totally lose time. Not only lose track of time, but actually lose a lot of time itself. If my wife decided to punish that one, she would have had a lot of good opportunities. Recently, I have been doing quite a bit better on this one thankfully.
-ZM
Since my current Dominant does not like to punish, she is apt to let things slide, especially little things. Make no mistake, I still get spanked every time for forgetting meds, for example. Big issues are always grounds for a spanking. My former Domme on the other hand, was quite insistent on spanking me for everything on our list of offenses. At the beginning of our relationship, it was not uncommon for me to be spanked multiple times daily until I followed all the rules to the letter. Back to my current DD household, I do sometimes wish she was a bit more consistent with the discipline for the little things. It actually makes me feel like I got away with something when I commit a minor offense. I never know for sure if she was unaware of my infraction or just decided to waive the punishment.
ReplyDeleteI can see that. Making sure the kitchen is clean after dinner on the nights my wife goes out is one of my responsibilities. My kids do the actual cleanup work, but I’m responsible to make sure they follow through.
DeleteIt definitely did not happen last night, but last night I was also on conference calls for work from 7pm through 9:45pm. So I don’t know for sure whether Michelle just didn’t pay attention, or whether she gave me a pass given my workload.
"I never know for sure if she was unaware of my infraction or just decided to waive the punishment." This is sort of an issue for us, too. I sometimes assume something will be punished, and when it doesn't happen I am left wondering why.
DeleteExplicit rules are enforced with zero tolerance. Most often I get in trouble for not setting up the coffee pot for the next morning. Absolutely 100% of the time when I forget, I get spanked. This isn't true of more subjective offenses like interrupting. I rarely get spanked even if she calls me out. She recognizes that I need more consistent enforcement of these subjective offenses, but so far, she hasn't been able to spank me when I commit them. Any ideas how we can fix this?
ReplyDeleteCL, you hit on an issue that I intended to raise more expressly in the post, namely whether zero-tolerance and consistency were applied more often to concrete, objective offenses.
DeleteHi Dan,
DeleteI wondered that as well as I was reading your original post and CL's comment. I think that it is almost certain that zero-tolerance and greater consistency are easier to implement on very concrete offenses, whether it actually happens or not. Anything that is more subjective, like attitude, would be much, much harder to have zero tolerance for. On the other hand, you either smoked a cigarette or you didn't. There isn't much middle ground.
-ZM
Thinking about this, do we really want zero tolerance, or do we want her to be in charge?
ReplyDeleteIf a punishment is expected every single time, then isn’t she compelled to play a role every time?
I don’t think there’s an easy answer here. On the one hand, I definitely crave consistency as well. But on the other, I need her to have the authority to set the rules and use her discretion on when a spanking is warranted more.
"Thinking about this, do we really want zero tolerance, or do we want her to be in charge? If a punishment is expected every single time, then isn’t she compelled to play a role every time?" - Absolutely agree. I don't think zero tolerance is the answer, which seems to be what everyone is saying this week, since it is unworkable, and actually takes her authority and gives it to the rulebook.
Delete-ZM
Zero tolerance is too difficult to enforce for those who have busy lives. We occasionally (once every year or so) have a zero tolerance week -- maybe extended to 10 days -- when we invoke this as an exercise. It also covers make ups for prior "offenses" so my butt gets tanned more than once per day. We have some other rules for these "Training Weeks" that are lots of fun and heighten the experience.
ReplyDeleteRegarding the tears from the last post that I missed: I agree with the two attributes listed above. Crying is hard for most men to achieve, and it's more a matter of attitude and approach than anything else. It certainly isn't about brutality, though it does for me require a relatively long and fairly hard spanking that I know won't end until I give in.
Graham
Hi Graham,
DeleteTotally agree on the busy lives part. I think that is the primary thing that prevents consistency, and it makes zero tolerance almost impossible.
What might be a good middle ground on everything and something that might help with consistency and might even feel a bit like zero tolerance would be absolute inevitability. Her judgement would determine when punishment is merited, but once a "sentence" has been given, it WILL be carried out 100%. Kind of the "it is written" sort of thing.
As far as tears go, you are absolutely right (as far as I know from my very limited experience with tears) that is is a matter of attitude and approach.
One interesting thing that happened this last week is I was reading my wife things from last weeks topic, and she was kind of mindblown by the whole wearing a dress, and having to go into the room that way and curtsey before being spanked. As we were talking about it, I was thinking of just what that would feel like, and I think that level of humiliation would almost guarantee tears, which of course is a whole other humiliation. It was interesting to me because I had thought about it when I was commenting on it, but only when I saw my wife's reaction did I really understand just how difficult this would be to endure. Maybe it is good that I didn't read her the part that I wrote about "I so wish (and at the same time don't wish) that something like that could happen once in my life!"
-ZM
ZM, you say your wife was "mindblown." Can you expand a bit on that? Did it seem like something she might consider putting your through, or was it more of a negative reaction?
DeleteInevitability is a lot more practical approach. Once I've decreed a Disciplinary Session, he's going to get one. Sometimes, power outages or something like that might get him a reprieve, but it's just that. I simply reschedule the session. I have to carry out what I say I will or he'll think he can get away with disobedience. He has to know he's going to get checked up on from time to time, but he's not going to know when. He does know it's going to happen. People might not always tell me when he misbehaves, but he knows I might ask. I don't check his computer history every day or even regularly. He does know I'm going to check it at some point or I'm just going to ask him. I'm not going to check or ask if I can't discipline him in some timely manner if I find out he's disobeyed me.
DeleteIn regard to the other comment, he usually winds up curtseying 3 times, since I have to take off his dress, pettislip and petticoat. It's pretty hard to administer physical discipline to his rear end with all of that in the way. He's usually left in bra, panties, garter belt, stockings and heels. When he hangs up his petticoat, he has to walk across the room to me and I tell him what implement to bring me. There's usually some begging and pleading, but eventually I've had enough and tell him sharply to bring the implement I've decreed. Then he has to walk across the room, get it and bring it back to me. He says he feels pretty vulnerable in just underwear. There are also certain things my guests and I can notice about him when he's just in underwear. I make comments about it and encourage the witnesses to, also.
At one point, I'd actually hope the tears would start then. From what I've been reading and what other people have told me, the pre spanking lecture/scolding is how you'll get the pre spanking tears. It will be another opportunity to humble him if tears are flowing as he goes to get the implement or he's bringing it back to me. Of course, my guests and I will comment on it, .
Busy lives don't get in the way with us. I'm informed that I've broken a rule. The spanking is administered the first evening it's convenient for my wife.Zero tolerance means punishing each time an offense occurs, not when the punishment is administered. She follows the DWC technique to handle multiple offenses. The first offense earns 10 minutes of spanking. If I manage to rack up more offenses before my next spanking, five minutes is added for each one. I am very careful to avoid having more time added.
DeleteZero tolerance works as well in adult spanking discipline as it has worked in the many areas of law enforcement and public policy where it has been tried – that is to say NOT very well. Zero tolerance is not consistency as much as it is mind numbing robotic rule following without any room for judgement or reason.
ReplyDeleteThe purpose of consistency is to modify behavior by thinking through what works and implementing it. The purpose of zero tolerance is to avoid thinking about anything and to react mechanically to a given situation.
I am not saying that spanking consistently for repeated bad behavior doesn’t work. It works only too well -- when paired with judgement and appropriate in the context of the problem. But real zero tolerance is unworkable –both in everyday life and in a loving DD relationship
Alan
Hi Alan. I don't disagree, though I think it depends on both the frequency and the nature of the offense. For example, in my post I talked about my own efforts to stop smoking. For such a habit--one that involves serious health risks and that may be very hard to uproot on one's own--I can see the benefit of a applying a rule that every single cigarette would result in a spanking, without exception.
DeleteWe don't disagree.
DeleteI am drawing the distinction between through, reflective consistency and mind boggling rule following.( such as so many of our school boards and law enforcement policies have tried, failing spectacularly to address the underling problems.
Robots do not make great disciplinarians -and zero tolerance is robotic.
Consider your example involving smoking. you have disobeyed your wife -and you deserve to be spanked. You are also sick as a dog as stressed to the ceiling by work issues. Is spanking you right now going to progress your quitting smoking? Unlikely.
But she will spank anyway because you have a zero tolerance agreement. That's not loving DD nor is it likely to be effective.
Alan
Thanks, Alan. I get the distinction, though I think we'd still perhaps apply it differently in certain situations. Your objection on the smoking issue seems more about timing than about zero tolerance, though they obviously are related. The problem I see with using something like work stress to get out of a spanking is, isn't there always some such out available, whether it's labeled a reason or an excuse?
Delete"isn't there always some such out available, whether it's labeled a reason or an excuse?"
DeleteYes and there is also usually room and reason for discretion and judgement As long as a discipline policy allows for options and judgement, it is not zero tolerance.
"three strikes"and you are out is a classic zero tolerance policy that has done almost nothing to reduce the problem ( crime) while turning America into the worlds first industrial prison, (While the United States represents about 4.4 percent of the world's population, it houses around 22 percent of the world's prisoners)
Alan
True, though the problem with three strikes policy in the various states that have adopted isn't necessarily that on the third strike punishment is certain but, rather, that the three strikes often can be comprised of non-violent felonies or even low-level misdemeanors, in which case the problem isn't so much excess certainty as lack of proportionality. The criminal analogy also isn't that helpful for me because of the complexities and obvious counter examples. Severity doesn't/hasn't worked well here, but it seems to work pretty damn effectively in some other countries for at least certain categories of crimes like, for example, Singapore.
DeleteI agree with both of you. Zero tolerance has certainly not worked out so well on the judicial front, largely because as Dan said, it has often lacked proportionality.
DeleteLike in judicial matters, DD probably benefits from a reasonable, logical person considering the particulars of the situation and deciding what is fair in that exact case.
However, I also agree with Dan: "The problem I see with using something like work stress to get out of a spanking is, isn't there always some such out available, whether it's labeled a reason or an excuse?" - I usually have a rationalization or excuse for just about everything.
Maybe where "zero tolerance" could fit nicely into DD would be that for certain predetermined offenses if it happens there WILL be a consequence, and leaving the specifics of how severe a punishment is to be based on her read of the situation. This creates a sense of inevitability.
And others have mentioned the difficulty of making punishments happen in the midst of busy lives, lack of privacy, etc. I think the answer to this could be found by exploring the use of alternative punishments as necessary. "There is going to be a consequence, and I can't spank you now or soon, so instead..."
-ZM
Thanks, ZM. "And others have mentioned the difficulty of making punishments happen in the midst of busy lives, lack of privacy, etc. I think the answer to this could be found by exploring the use of alternative punishments as necessary. "There is going to be a consequence, and I can't spank you now or soon, so instead..."" Agreed, though I'd note that the only topic we've talked about here that always seems to meet more resistance that this one on "zero tolerance" is . . . alternative punishments.
DeleteHi Dan
Delete"I'd note that the only topic we've talked about here that always seems to meet more resistance that this one on 'zero tolerance' is . . . alternative punishments." Agreed. However, I think the current readership of the blog, or at least those who are actively commenting, is somewhat different than when we broached these topics in previous times. Right now, we don't seem to have as many of the "only spanking, no humiliation, and spankings only in a super manly way fully dressed with only my pants lowered 9 inches and my waist at at 47 degree angle" people commenting. Who knows, maybe our current readership would have a different take on alternative punishments?
-ZM
"Zero tolerance is too difficult to enforce for those who have busy lives."
ReplyDeleteYes, this precisely. I might see husband's looked at pornography, but I'm too busy or he's too busy or we both are, so I can't even say anything to him about it. If I say something, I feel I have to do something so he won't think he's just going to get away with me saying "I thought I told you not to do that and you said you wouldn't."
If I can do something, I will have as close to zero tolerance as I can. Some times his guilty with explanation is actually good. It's one of the few times he'll actually volunteer information. I won't discipline if he's got a good reason. Of course, I'm the one who decides if the reason's good or not. If I think it's not good, zero tolerance is in effect.
"If I can do something, I will have as close to zero tolerance as I can." Sounds like a good, common sense approach.
DeleteI don't think zero tolerance would be an issue for me, one way or the other. My desired dynamic is that…
ReplyDelete1. If a spanking or other punishment happens, it makes sense that I deserve it.
2. Whatever the circumstances, if punishment doesn't happen, I respect her decision, and I'm relieved to avoid penalty.
Either way, she's in charge, and the feelings of being under her authority are alive. I believe it would enhance the relationship if I can't always predict what she'll do, and also her sometimes showing more leniency than I think is warranted is a warmer human quality than the cool detachment of inevitability and inflexibility. Bottom line really, as far as actual discipline goes, is that her humanity is most persuasive.
"I believe it would enhance the relationship if I can't always predict what she'll do, and also her sometimes showing more leniency than I think is warranted is a warmer human quality than the cool detachment of inevitability and inflexibility." I don't disagree, though for me a huge part of the DD attraction revolves around accountability, and accountability involves some sense of consistency of consequences.
DeleteDan, if I was asking my wife for discipline for self-improvement or to help correct known issues, then I would likely feel the same. I've asked her to take responsibility, and to be the effective parent to provide accountability. A good parent is fair and consistent. If she agreed to assume the role, then where is my punishment when called for? However, with regard to DD, I'm not driven by a desire for self-discipline. I must be more into authentic parenting where I'm not asking to be punished. That's up to her, and what feels right to her in the moment. I like to imagine she's strict and no-nonsense when called for, but I lose nothing if she wants to go easy or not at all for whatever reason makes sense to her. It could be that her opinion about a transgression doesn't match mine, she may just not be in the mood to deal with it, or something else entirely. Ideally, she explains her decision, and that in itself is a demonstration of her being in charge. And it may be that just talking about an issue, with punishment hanging in the air, could turn out to be effective discipline. If she's right, and with thoughtful caring communication, the shame and acknowledgement could be provided to motivate change. In the end, knowing that she doesn't feel obligated to punish, and that she can at times be far more lenient than expected, I think would make the times she does decide to punish fairly more notable and impactful — like, wow, whatever I think about it, this must be serious to her!
DeleteBrett, I do think that differences in what we each are trying to address with DD could lead to very different approaches. Though, with regarding to a parenting model, I could also argue that there are good and bad parenting approaches and, while the robotic strictness that Alan calls out obviously is or can be bad, I would argue so can "going easy for whatever reason makes sense." Erratic parenting in which something is punished sometimes and gotten away with the next can, in my opinion, be just as problematic or more so than being overly strict.
DeleteDan: "Erratic parenting in which something is punished sometimes and gotten away with the next can, in my opinion, be just as problematic or more so than being overly strict."
DeleteIf there's a parenting guide or discipline handbook out there somewhere, I bet it would agree with you. DD for me, though genuinely about discipline, is at the core about my adult sexual desires. Modeled after my childhood, I was consistently taught right from wrong, but I couldn't always predict what punishment was going to be. My parents must have had their own calculus for it, but I didn't know the exact formula. When it came to spanking, it really didn't happen often enough for a clear pattern to emerge, and it tended to effectively discourage a repeat of the misbehavior.
Hi ZM,
ReplyDeleteZM wrote: “I was reading my wife things from last week’s topic, and she was kind of mind blown by the whole wearing a dress, and having to go into the room that way and curtsey before being spanked.”
Like Dan, I am interested in your wife’s reaction also and her thinking about it. I don’t think I understand the “feminization” aspect of DD very well. I had some experience with a former girlfriend who totally shocked me one time after a severe spanking. She had been reading the DWC about “reinforcement” of a spanking and she took my underpants away and made me wear her panties for three days. It was sort of a probation period to earn back the right to put back on my own briefs, but also to remind me for 3 days I had been spanked and why. I had to hand wish her panties every night and return them to her immaculate. She used that practice on and off throughout our relationship. I can’t say it wasn’t effective but it also was not particularly humiliating wearing panties. (Women get the best deal with underwear anyway for comfort and style) My wife has never shown any real interest in dressing me up (she does sometimes like to dress up herself), so I have no other experience with it. But dressed in feminine attire even for discipline I think I would feel silly but not humiliated, nor would it make me more or less obedient to her. In short I don’t get that part of it. So any thoughts on it are welcome.
Alan
"But dressed in feminine attire even for discipline I think I would feel silly but not humiliated, nor would it make me more or less obedient to her." That's kind of where I am too, Alan. I can understand how your girlfriend's panty practice might have reinforced the spanking, by keeping your attention focused on that area of your anatomy but, like you, I don't think I would find it particularly humiliating. I can't say much in favor of panties from a comfort perspective; I'm pretty comfortable in my cotton boxer briefs. But, you definitely are right that women win out on style and aesthetics.
DeleteHi Alan and Dan,
DeleteFirst off for my wife being kind of "mind blown." Maybe mind blown isn't the correct phrase for it, but somehow the whole scene became very vivid in her mind, and so she kind of talked through it, like "imagine if you had to do that" and things like that. But it made it very clear to me that I had read through it somewhat jaded by my exposure to all things spanking/punishment that I have explored and researched for the past 40 some years, and somehow I missed just what the feelings would be.
This has happened to me many times, and now that I think about it, it is often involving witnesses, probably since I haven't actually experienced it so don't really have a clear idea of what it would be like if it did actually happen. For example when we had the topic last year about witnesses and if you had no choice but to choose one person who would it be. I was thinking more about who I would choose, and my wife said "imagine if _____ was watching you get spanked" mentioning the name of my closest female friend. And suddenly the whole thing changed in my mind from an abstract fascination with random "witnesses" to a vivid and concrete scene and a much better understanding of just what thoughts would be going through my head and what feelings I would probably be having. And also related to that same posting a year ago was Danielle's excellent description of how she spanked Wayne in front of Barb, and even though we had been talking about the topic for several weeks at that time, when I read her account it just came to life and it was almost like I was there seeing it or experiencing it.
Regarding feminization, I am not sure exactly what to say. For some reason, whenever my wife has done anything involving feminization or for that matter things like diapers it is just very humiliating. You would think that just knowing that she is doing it only to make me feel humiliated would somehow reduce how humiliated I feel, but it doesn't seem to work that way for me. For example, she once painted my toenails red and left them that way for about a week, taking advantage of us being alone in the house for an extended period. During that time, I was very shy about her seeing my painted toenails.
Anyway, all I can say is that for me, that form of humiliation really works, even though I know it is all play and she is doing it just to make me feel that way.
-ZM
-ZM
Thanks, ZM. I get it. I'm sure there we all vary greatly on exactly what embarrasses us and what doesn't. For me, being publicly chastised would be far more embarrassing than any feminization at home, though I'm sure others would have the opposite experience.
DeleteHi Dan,
DeleteI too would probably find public chastisement far more embarrassing than feminization at home, but I really don't know how it would be since I haven't experienced any sort of public scolding.
Having said that, I am very surprised at just how humiliated I feel when she does things, considering it is in the privacy of our home, knowing that she is doing it just to humiliate me in a fun way, and with most of the ideas for how to do it ultimately having come from me over the past several years. When I think about it being mostly my ideas being used on me in private, it is kind of hard to understand how it could still have such power to cause strong feelings.
-ZM
One of the only areas you and I seem to differ in is you do seem more into humiliation than I am. But, I do kind of get how you get strong feelings from things you yourself have suggested and that occur in practice. It seems to me it's a matter of knowing yourself pretty well. You have suggested to her things that you know will be humiliating, and knowing that those things push certain buttons for you doesn't make the reaction any less likely or less real. I also get it having an impact even if done in private, because it seems to be the authority and being placed in a more vulnerable position that you are getting off on (which I *totally* get even if I'm not into humiliation to the extent you are). I don't doubt you would feel *more* humiliation if something was done in front of witnesses or in public, that that's really just a difference of degree. Plus, we all (or most of us) have limits -- something that is "bad" but still intriguing/arousing to us (spanking, humiliation), etc. may be acceptable or desired only if it stays within certain bounds. So, her doing something to you in the privacy of your own home might be within bounds that keep it arousing or at least palatable, while taking it public might be over the line.
DeleteIt's the boundary issue where I think you and I differ. For whatever reason (probably some deep rooted insecurities), I am really sensitive to embarrassment, whether it's my own direct experience of it or watching others be embarrassed/humiliated. I just have a really low threshold for what I handle in terms of being embarrassed or watching others embarrassed before it becomes really intolerable for me. It sounds like you have a much higher threshold for experiencing embarrassment, and below that threshold something about it is actually pleasurable for you.
"I also get it having an impact even if done in private, because it seems to be the authority and being placed in a more vulnerable position that you are getting off on" - Exactly this! It is not that I get off on humiliation in general, and in fact am usually pretty averse to it. But as a way to show or cement authority, and when it is my loving wife doing it, somehow it just all comes together in a very powerful way.
DeleteAs for more public embarrassment, I am not sure exactly where my boundary is. It sounds like it may be higher than yours, but still I mostly see even something more public as being only a little more public, like before a small group of selected individuals. Certainly not being paraded around on the streets in a diaper and heels or something!
-ZM
I observe that Aunt Kay, in her Tips and Methods section of the DWC, strongly advocated zero tolerance:
ReplyDelete"The well-disciplined husband is a direct result of constant vigilance on the part of the wife. Vigilance means being aware of almost everything he is doing and keeping your rules consistent and predictably enforced."
That's very true.
DeleteI really live a "zero tolerance" marriage , just in one field, I mean, just one rule in a specific domain. The only one she considers as important, the only real danger we really can and must avoid . Alcohol. Me drinking alcohol. Her wish. Mine too. She knows how to handle me if i fail. I could never thank her enough. And it's a bless. Finally ! C
DeleteGood discussion. Even if every infraction technically eventually earns an individual spanking, the discipline starts to feel forgiving if too much time has passed. This makes zero tolerance challenging for those with busy lives, especially if children are at home. Meaningfully connecting a punishment to an infraction further in the past seems like an art that develops over time as the wife masters punishment's verbal component.
ReplyDelete"Meaningfully connecting a punishment to an infraction further in the past seems like an art that develops over time as the wife masters punishment's verbal component." - undoubtedly true.
DeleteEven so, I think it is inevitable that as time passes, the feelings around an infraction lessen for all parties. Maybe by scolding well, she can bring some of that back both in the one being punished and in herself as she remembers the offense. For us, we have usually talked about it too much by then, so the whole thing is just forgiven and forgotten...
-ZM
I agree there is some practical limit on how long a punishment can be dragged out before it loses a lot of its emotional force.
DeleteI think she meant follow up and consistency and we know from Tomy's comments ,that she believed in "inevitability" as it has been discussed here.But none of that is really "zero tolerance" BTW, does any one know what has happened to our resident sage. He is MIA
DeleteAlan
Well, consistency and inevitability are what *I* meant by "zero tolerance," or at least major components of it.
DeleteI've been in touch with him. He's doing well but is taking a break, of indeterminate length, from DD and blog activities.
Hi Dan,
ReplyDeleteI realized that for all my writing this week, I never did answer your questions!
"...are there some behaviors that are treated with zero (or very little) tolerance?" - We don't currently have anything that is all that close to zero tolerance. However, I think we are kind of drifting that way with our weekly check-ins, especially on the diet/weight loss part. The weekly check-ins DO happen, and they are "graded" matter of factly, and if the grades indicate it, punishment WILL happen. However, we are not quite to zero tolerance because when it comes to grading, on the subjective elements she might cut me some slack when she is grading things if there is a lot going on at the time. Also, we have taken breaks from the weight loss whenever it is convenient, like around holidays, birthdays, etc. The problem is there are just so many special occasions. Last night, as we were talking about zero tolerance, she said "maybe I should just be zero tolerance on the weight loss until at least 20kg are lost, and then we could go back to allowing some exceptions." I am not sure how I feel about that.
Another issue that I think could become zero tolerance is checking out girls when my wife and I are out. She doesn't like it (who would?) and I don't even know that I am doing it, so I could see her going zero tolerance on it for a while until I become much more self-aware and rein that in.
"If there is such an issue in your DD relationship, is it an issue that is important to her, or to you, or one that you both agree should be punished every time?" - The issues I mentioned above are important to me, but if they become zero tolerance that will be totally her call, since it puts her in the position of having to enforce even when she doesn't feel like it. So at that point, I would say that the issue must be more important to her than me.
"If she doesn’t treat any issue with such little tolerance, do you wish she would?" - I have mixed feelings. I do have certain things that I really want to see change, whatever it might take. At the same time, I usually am the one wanting her to show mercy and give me a pass when punishment time rolls around. So I guess the answer to this depends on when you ask me. If punishment is imminent, then zero tolerance sounds pretty bad, but when looking at my life goals, relationship, and so on when I am sitting here knowing no punishment can happen in at least the next few hours, then zero tolerance sounds more reasonable for some of the more intractable habits!
-ZM
I have mixed feelings on "zero tolerance" for weight loss, because I feel that the prescription for weight (really, fat, not weight) loss sometimes genuinely escapes me, so it's hard to be accountable for something that seems outside my control. There are times when I am pretty strict on diet and exercise, yet my strength plateaus and I don't seem to be able to lose an ounce of fat. Other times, I eat and drink to my heart's content and don't gain an ounce. Though, I guess one could argue that maybe "zero tolerance" would give you an incentive to find a way . . . I do feel like it could be helpful if there are certain inputs into a healthy weight that you need to be more consistent about. For example, I know french fries aren't good for me, but I can't resist them. She could take a hard line on eating fries. Or, you have to work out a certain number of days, period. I could see tying zero tolerance to those inputs, but I have a harder time tying it to the output, i.e. does the weight loss actually happen.
Delete"Another issue that I think could become zero tolerance is checking out girls when my wife and I are out. She doesn't like it (who would?) . . ." Interestingly, I don't really have a problem with my wife showing an interest in other guys. Not that she does much, but there have been times that I think she is attracted to someone, like a neighbor or co-worker or trainer, and I really don't have any problem with it. Honestly, it kind of turns me on.
ZM wrote:“…so I could see her going zero tolerance on it for a while until I become much more self-aware and rein that in”.
DeleteThat sort of monitoring and consistent response (call it what you will) has worked very well for us when she is either emphasizing something that really irritates her that’s already a rule or she is r introducing a new rule. It’s kind of like the DWI campaigns cops run for a weekend or two or holiday safety programs that put a radar gun on every corner. They (cops) can’t keep up that level of enforcement indefinitely but emphasizing it for a while gets one in the habit of thinking about it and definitely becoming more aware of it. A good scolding carrying the implied threat of a spanking is almost as good as an actual spanking to raise your awareness the ice is getting thin.
Alan
Those are pretty much the conclusions we came up with on weight loss so far too. Since the output seems so unpredictable - you can do everything right and not lose a bit, or conversely do most everything wrong and see great results - it is hard to take a zero tolerance stance on actual results.
ReplyDeleteHowever, we tend towards too much lenience on the inputs (diet and exercise), and predictably the results just aren't there, or at least not quickly enough. So I can see this as where she might move more towards zero tolerance. Then, after some time, if even this isn't working, I could see her taking a hard line on the results, since in the end, it is better to have trouble sitting for a while than to die 20 years early from a heart attack or stroke.
As far as me checking out other women, my wife doesn't really have a problem with it all that much, but she worries that I might be so obvious about it that the girls would actually notice and feel uncomfortable. Plus, even though she says it doesn't make her feel bad, I would rather err on the side of caution. As for her checking guys out, she doesn't seem to much, though maybe when she is out with her girlfriends she does more? In any case, whether it happens or not, it doesn't really bother me because I know she loves me deeply, so I don't feel threatened by anything.
-ZM