"An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure." -- Benjamin Franklin
Hello all. Welcome back to The Disciplinary Couples Club. Our weekly gathering of men and women who are in, or interested in being in, Domestic Discipline relationships, mainly of the Female/male variety. I hope you had a good week.
Mine wasn’t bad, all things considered. I went into it with some trepidation regarding some of my personal conduct issues. As I alluded to a couple of times recently, in the back half of 2020 and the first part of 2021, for the first time in longer than I can remember, I seemed to make some actual progress on the health and behavior front, including a pretty substantial reduction in alcohol consumption, particularly binge drinking. But, it’s not so easy turning on a dime from something like this (my profession really does feel depressingly like Mad Men sometimes) . . .
to something more like this . . .
While the progress of the last few months was real and undeniable, I knew going into it that May had the potential to be really stressful and, sure enough, this month has involved some backsliding. By the end of last week I was pretty disgusted with it and started thinking a lot about how to get back on track. Hence, the quote at the top of last week’s entry regarding abstinence being easier than moderation, at least for those of us prone to excess. But, I had a couple of events going on this week involved saying good-bye to some people I’ve been close to, where the relationship has always involved getting together and talking about life over a few beers. I also had a dinner planned with Anne to celebrate an important milestone. So, I really didn’t feel injecting a stilted abstinence into those social gatherings, but I kept worrying that with my track record, one or two drinks would lead to a bad night and yet more backsliding. Well, somehow it didn’t turn out that way. I attended those events, had a few drinks to celebrate people and events that are important to me, and nothing got out of hand. Progress.
But, while I was ruminating about the prospect of things getting out of hand and possible means of nipping that in the bud, my mind drifted to this thing we do, and some of the comments naturally took me there. While our topic was spanking instruments, some of the discussion drifted into the topic of preventative spankings. In response to a comment that referenced “maintenance” spankings, Liz observed:
“We do weekly spankings whether or not there have been any transgressions, but we don't call them maintenance. We consider them motivational: Art gets paddled every Monday morning to remind him to keep his arrogance to a minimum. I do believe in DD that is proactive in addition to reactive. Maybe that's what some couples mean by maintenance, but I don't care for the term. It sounds weird to me. I'm not his maintenance department. But yes, I like restricting DD to one day a week so it is not a dominating thing in our lives.”
Alan responded:
“’I do believe in DD that is proactive in addition to reactive.’ In one sentence Liz, you have captured the essence of ideal DD for me and I suspect many others. DD can be very effective as both a way to modify behavior and a relationship tool if it is just reactive. Many men and I include myself will thrive with DD that is just reactive. But if a woman takes a proactive position together with the energy it generates, DD reaches a new plateau. That’s one reason I believe that preventive spanking work so well-- because she is proactively managing behavior rather than waiting for misbehavior to happen and reacting to that. I don’t think I can express it better than that but it is both thrilling and intensely motivating when a wife acts proactively to establish or maintain discipline.”
Art also gave his perspective on the “preventative” nature of Liz’s spankings and also their limits:
“I also have come to believe in preventive DD. Liz paddles me every Monday morning as a reminder to curb my arrogance. She spanks hard enough that sitting is uncomfortable for 2-3 days and I can even feel it as I walk. And with the discomfort is the sense of being humbled by the corporal punishment. That discomfort serves as a constant reminder to be humble and keep my mouth shut when I want to make sarcastic comments. As the discomfort fades, so does my humility. All of my recent incidents of arrogance have come toward the end of the week. I obviously have not yet internalized the message. I continue to need that proactive external reminder and maybe I always will. For a few weeks I got a second paddling on Thursday mornings but Liz feels that should not be necessary and of course she is right. I must develop the self-discipline to keep my mouth in check for at least a full week. I am grateful to my wife for the externally applied discipline that has helped me improve my behavior.”
When we first addressed this topic a few years ago, Alan characterized “preventative spankings and their effects thusly:
"These are spankings administered before parties or events in which historically my behavior had earned me a spanking after the fact. Her reasoning was that if she was going to have to spank me eventually, she would prefer to avoid the behavior and get it done before rather than afterward. Most preventatives are done several hours before a party or we get into the car to travel and designed to give me a warm bottom that reminds me what could happen. With one unforgettable exception this does work to prevent really bad public behavior. It does not always make my behavior perfect but I am careful enough that she is satisfied. There are now three or four of these scheduled before holiday events and they have become so routine she actually often puts them on the calendar. This gets to your point about that second (or third) drink just pushing the reality of future punishment out of your mind.) The reality of punishment is very much on your mind after a recent spanking (For me that feeling lasts at least two or three days.) So sipping your drinks, avoiding family confrontations and boorish behavior is much easier.”
I used to be a skeptic about whether preventative spankings had a legitimate role in DD relationships. It didn’t seem to qualify as real punishment or accountability, and seemed to be more than a little unfair, since it seemed to involve “punishing” something that hadn’t even happened (yet). But, I now definitely get their value in tackling deep-rooted behaviors that seem to arise in particular contexts. Anne has done it only a couple of times, but when she did it truly did stay on my mind throughout events at which usually would have created a high risk of me over-indulging.
For two reasons, I didn’t end up asking Anne for a preventative spanking prior to the social get-together that I was the most concerned about this week, though I thought about it. First, the get-together was in the early afternoon, and Anne had to leave for work early that morning. That made a same-day preventative spanking logistically difficult to pull off. Second, I probably chickened out, using the logistics challenges as a rationalization.
At the risk of asking people to comment further on something they addressed last week, let’s talk a little more about preventative spankings. Have you used them? In what contexts? Have they worked to prevent problem behaviors? How do they compare to real punishment spankings in terms of severity and duration? For the ladies, do you feel like addressing problems before they happen enhances your authority and feelings of being in charge? For the men, do you find preventative spankings to be more or less humbling than punishment spankings, or are they about the same?
Have a great week.
Good day to all. Looks like I might be the first to post on this topic, and probably with a different point of view than most others. For me, spanking is not really discipline. Spanking is punishment. It’s the result of failure or misbehavior. Like it was growing up, there was no such thing as a preventative spanking in any family I knew about that wouldn’t be considered just abuse. The way I’m wired, I’m limited to that, and would never be part of a relationship that used spanking as prevention. For consenting adults, though, I see nothing wrong with using spanking as discipline. In any way that it works to improve behavior, and the spankee is good with the practice, what’s not to like?
ReplyDeleteBrett,
DeleteThis is the way I feel, too. Spanking is a consequence to me, so there has to be an actual reason for it.
Hi Belle,
DeleteYes, the reason for it is the key. That reason could be anything from just wanting or needing regular spankings regardless of circumstances, to improvement of behavior or prevention of potential misbehavior inspired by a sore behind, to punishment as a consequence of failure. For me it must be a consequence because, if spanking is used for not doing anything wrong yet, then the same thing for when it happens is a weakened experience as punishment. From the opposite perspective, it would be like getting an award before anything is accomplished or earned. What then is the meaning of the trophy? I’m looking for a specifically defined kind of event. A spanking is the evidence of failure. Only failure can result in a spanking. Used as both prevention and punishment, all I have is ambiguity.
Yes, this would be my fear. I want our DD to be black and white:
DeleteYou did X.
We have agreed that X warrants a spanking.
Go get the bath brush.
It needs to be (painfully) clear on a visceral level. I don't think I could do it otherwise. Nor would I want to.
My wife uses such, especially prior to a visit with her Mother. We don't get along, and having a spanked bottom to sit on and not showing I was spanked I'm on my best behavior.
ReplyDeleteFortunately, both Jimmy and I get along with our mothers-in-law. If he was so obnoxious to my mom that I felt I had to spank him before a visit, I would question my choice in husbands.
DeleteThis may be a distinguishing factor in DD relationships. It appears some people have real problems where spanking is the medicine required to keep things in check. If that works, great. For me, if I had a problem with my mother-in-law, it couldn’t be fixed with a spanking. I would treat her respectfully because that’s the right thing to do, and I wouldn’t want to cause my wife any pain. Worst case, I would just avoid seeing her if possible. With other personal problems, I’m going to try to do the right thing regardless of whether I’m in a DD relationship or not. If I fail, then punishment makes sense. Before I fail, at best spanking would be a waste of energy.
DeleteI agree with this completely, Brett.
DeleteMy wife retains the sort of discipline that you describe in her armoury and uses it, I would say, reasonably regularly but not all that frequently, if that makes sense to readers.
ReplyDeleteI don't know if 'preventative' is quite the right word for these sessions, but if it isn't I don't know what would be the mot juste here. 'It's not quite 'maintenance', either - perhaps Liz's 'motivational' would most closely approach what my wife is trying to achieve.
The implements used on my behind are the same that she uses for a punishment spanking. She spanks as vigorously in either case as well; the only difference is that a punishment session will last a good while longer. At the end of the - let's call it 'motivational' - session, my wife will tend to deliver a little homily to my (always at that point kneeling) form, along the lines that I should remember the power/control at her disposal and to consider how much more unpalatable for me are the effects of a session devoted to correction or punishment.
As I say, I never quite know when I may be in for such a session, and I certainly don't presume to ask, but on the whole, they do have the desired effect. Punishment sessions have needed to be a whole less frequent in the years since motivational/reinforcement lessons were added to the roster.
A last note - I always find the motivational sessions far more humbling than the punishment equivalents. My wife's absolute authority is reinforced at the same time as my own need to remember my place and my manners. In that sense, as in many others, I have to echo the recent comment by one of the ladies of this parish - Domestic Discipline does work.
Very much enjoying your various discussions....
Thanks, Anonymous. I agree that the preventative/motivational sessions have the potential to be more humbling and more role enforcing.
DeleteTo me it would not enforce my role as a fair disciplinarian. I think it would plant doubt.
DeleteI like the term motivational. I have a Thursday evening date with my wife's belt. The intent is to remind me of my status and to inspire me to be good all weekend. If she has particular goals or particular tasks for me over the weekend, she lets me know then. The belting is not long or severe.
DeleteI know that if I am thoughtful and respectful over the weekend, there will be very good sex. If I screw up, I will get a very different visit from the belt. That rarely happens. I am usually very motivated.
My former Dominant wife used what we are now calling preventative spankings. She called them reminders. Much the same as others here, I was spanked before leaving the house. A sore bottom does a lot to curb ones behavior at a social function or even going to the store with her. However, there were times when despite the preventative measure, I earned another. Arriving home I really got it good.
ReplyDeleteThis is why I liked the first captioned photo above with its reference that the real punishment spanking was "suspended" depending on his actual behavior.
DeleteThis is Liz.
ReplyDeleteAs Art and I have related, almost all of our spankings are preventative/motivational, though usually there also is a punishment component. Typically I paddle him once a week, on Monday mornings. We address any misbehavior during the previous week, and I give him a paddle-punctuated pep talk about the week that is just beginning.
Both of us like it this way, and the paddle definitely serves as a deterrent, at least for as long as the sting and marks last, as Art has described. I do think he ought to be able to behave for a week after a paddling, and sometimes he does but sometimes he doesn't, and it doesn't seem related to the severity of the spanking. Though I may try intentionally giving him bruises that last a week and seeing if that makes a difference.
I had never heard of preventative spankings before we started our DD. I certainly never experienced them as a child. I was always spanked for what I had done and to keep me from doing it again, not to keep me from doing it in the first place. I don't think I would have understood preventive punishment as I child. I would have thought it unfair. I think it takes a certain maturity level to understand this concept, and I am glad that Art is mature enough for it.
"[S]ometimes he does but sometimes he doesn't, and it doesn't seem related to the severity of the spanking." If I had to pick one thing that I think I had wrong about DD early on (and for a number of years), it is probably that there is a positive correlation between severity and effectiveness. I now think there probably is up to a point, but after you reach that point it's really all about consistency and frequency, and also certainty of both detection and corresponding punishment.
DeleteI also am big on consistency. I spank him *every time* he leaves his underwear on the floor. He knows what is coming. He doesn't do it much anymore!
DeleteI know that Jimmy would strenuously object to a spanking for no other reason than I felt he needed a reminder to behave. I think he would refuse and it could ruin the dynamic that is working so well for us both.
ReplyDeleteI know I am a rookie at this, but I just don't feel justified in punishing him for something he hasn't done. Punishment in anticipation seems to me to be predicting the future, and I don't read tea leaves. I believe in giving Jimmy a chance to behave, not assume he is going to misbehave and punish him in advance.
I hear that it works for some couples, but I doubt I will ever use this as part of our DD. Preventive warnings are a different matter, though. I definitely believe in letting him know that he is close to crossing the line.
We encountered that circumstance again this weekend, except the warning wasn't from me! We were out with friends and Jimmy was entertaining everyone with his stories when my girlfriend (one of the two who know about our DD) stood up next to him and whispered something in his ear. He blushed a little, glanced at me and then finished his story but in a more subdued manner.
I couldn't wait to find out what she said. I asked her at the end of the party and I asked him when we got home.
She said to me, "I told him that you were giving him the look and that he better cool it or he was going to get the bath brush when you got home."
He said, "She said you seemed a little irritated and I probably should cool it." No mention of spanking. I found that quite interesting. I think he doesn't want to admit to himself (or me) that others know.
Belle
I get the sense of unfairness and, like I said, I used to feel that way myself. For me, while there might be a "reading tea leaves" bit of uncertainty, there are some contexts where my misbehavior ain't all that uncertain.
DeleteThat's great that you have a girlfriend helping you out with keeping him in line!
Yes, I never intended for her to help, I was just sharing. But she is the one who had a fling with Jimmy while we were separated so she knows him intimately and has no compunction (I think I am using that correctly) making intimate comments to him, which both Jimmy and I usually find funny, but he didn't this time.
DeleteAnyway, her comment did work!!
I love it how the spanking-related stuff deepens your connection with him. (Your intimate secrets kind of thing). It's the biggest benefit of all..Trust, honesty, intimacy, Yeah Baby, that's the gold.
DeleteThere is a lot of discussion on this blog about the mental, emotional and sexual impacts of DD. But preventive spanking, while having its mental and psychological effects, is primarily for me not mental, psychological or sexual but instead about the physical memory of being spanked, i.e. a warm bum -- and the constant reminder it gives me.
ReplyDeleteIt’s been remarked how well behaved a guy is after a spanking. There is a reason for that beyond the mental and psychological effects of being punished. And that reason is the condition of your bottom. How long that lasts probably depends on how severely you were spanked. For me it seems to be around three days to a week.
So it’s much easier for me not to lose my temper behind the wheel or have that extra glass of wine or refrain from telling Uncle Carl that he should read a newspaper once in a while if I have been recently spanked. What stops me is not the abstract thought that she might spank me, but the all too vivid physical memory that she has already spanked me. Based on our experience the real benefit of preventive spanking is in an established DD relationships where there is a solid history of patterns of bad behavior in predictable situations – and the time frame is relatively short such as a party or a car trip. (Where the physical memory of the spanking is still strong.)
I have chuckled at the old ditty that a boy with a red bum is a boy that has learned a lesson. But in the case of a well-timed preventive spanking a lesson has been learned and it is that he doesn’t want another one (not soon, anyway)
Alan
Alan, on the very few occasions that Anne has given one, that's the way it worked for me, too. It was the physical sensation of sitting on bottom made very recently sore that kept me in line. It was a very tangible physical reminder.
DeleteUnfortunately (or fortunately), that “tangible physical reminder” has an expiration date. That in fact is one of the mysteries of being spanked- how much it can hurt and how much you REALLY don’t want it at the time – but how fast that physical memory dissipates. No matter how hard I try to anticipate how hard it is really going to feel, I am always somewhat shocked at the actual experience. That may be the reason spanking works so well in the short term, but must be consistently reinforced to bring permanent behavior change
DeleteAlan
This is Liz. I agree with this. Art even asked me to start punishing him on Thursdays because the sting from Monday had worn off by then. I did it twice, as I recall, but then said no more. It was just too much. He is an adult and he shouldn't constantly need a sting in his butt in order to behave!
DeleteThis is Arthur (home for a rare lunch with wife and read Liz's post). Liz is right. I need to grow up. Instead of a Thursday spanking, I have put a sticky note on the bathroom mirror that I see whenever I shave. It says "remember Monday". One of my kids asked me what it meant and I said that I usually have a good work attitude on Monday and I want to keep that throughout the week. Which is the truth. My son understood. He asked if this was about my arrogance. I said yes. He nodded and moved on. I felt guilty that my kids are so aware of my bad behavior. I wanted Liz to paddle me right then.
DeleteI've tried similar systems of posting notes to myself, or calendar reminders. But, I find that after a few weeks they just fade into the background to such an extent that I don't pay attention to them at all.
DeleteI read in a self-help book to move the sticky note to a different spot on the mirror every few days, or even to a new location completely.
DeleteIt also suggested cutting the sticky note into an odd shape. So, Art, you could cut your note in the shape of a paddle!
Like Belle, I see Disciplinary Sessions as more of a consequence of bad behavior or disobedience rather than a preventive measure. This is why I don't usually do preventive and don't do "maintenance" at all.
ReplyDeleteIt's funny, though, sometimes I can tell when husband needs a trip across my lap. It's when his attitude's going downward but he hasn't done anything that deserves that trip across my lap, yet. Usually, it's not long before he does something that gets him scheduled for a Disciplinary Session.
If I've done anything "preventive", usually it's added to an already scheduled session. There was one time where I couldn't accept an invitation because of a previous commitment. Two days before we were supposed to be there, they had to cancel because of an emergency. It was a real emergency. I called the second person to ask if the invitation was still good and it was. I knew there would be people there that could "trigger" bad behavior from husband.
I'd already scheduled husband for a Disciplinary Session early that afternoon, anyhow he'd disobeyed me on something else. Like I've mentioned before, at the end of the session, I will swat husband's bare bottom with a leather paddle and extract tearful regrets and promises to be good and obedient. At the end of this session, I also added a lot more swats while I extracted promises to behave that evening and to remind him of the consequences of misbehaving. I even made him say what would happen to him if he misbehaved.
It was effective, since even though he did push it, a glance from me from time to time got him back in line. So in this case, the "preventive" swats and reciting was effective. Still, I have a hard time making my views on discipline fit with the idea of "maintenance" or "prevention".
I think that you make a seriously good point here when you talk about being able to tell when your husband might be on the verge of blotting his copybook, Cecilia.
DeleteIt really is all about a wife knowing her husband (or partner) inside out. My wife and I have been together so long that she can just tell if I'm not quite in the right frame of mind for her taste. Under those circumstances, what are her choices? Wait for an inevitable punishment session, which is never ideal for anyone - an icy atmosphere, the knowledge on both sides that it has to be done, a sense of shame on one side and a sense of disappointment and irritation on the other?
Or nip that in the bud and apply a stinging reminder of her authority, re-set my mind to the proper level of conformity, obedience and respect that she wants and ensure that my focus is where it should be?
I really do understand people like Brett and Belle, who feel that the element of justice is missing from Option 2, but if you happen to subscribe to the notion that prevention is better than cure, there is definitely an up side to it.
While the thought is in my mind, there are an extra couple of dimensions to my wife's thinking in her motivational disciplinary sessions (I know, because during them, she actually takes the time to express her thoughts, as opposed to the all-business nature of punishment discipline!)
DeleteThose dimensions are a) she may be the Head of her House, but we are still two adults within the relationship and she treats me as such (I stress that I'm not suggesting that anyone else on this board is any different in that respect). She doesn't expect to have to supervise me the whole time, believes that I ought to know what she requires from me in the house or out, and is well capable of differentiating between a moment of forgetfulness and a transgression that crosses her line.
As an example, if I were, say, to omit to pick something up that I've dropped once, she will make little of it, beyond a reminder. If I were to keep doing that, it would be clear that I wasn't listening and/or learning and consequences flow from that. Similarly, it's up to me to judge where the line is between marital banter and disrespect.
Which brings us to b)
The same mistakes or shortcomings in obedience, behaviour or duties will therefore be punished with consistency but also with a sense of irritation that I've in effect let my wife down by behaving in a non-adult fashion. She can see the signs before that stage is reached, though. A number of small infractions in different areas, harmless though they may be on their own, will have her reaching for her whip to stop them from becoming something worse. I recognise that as justice, albeit of a rough sort!
I would say the "extra" swats were kind of preventative, at least loosely defined.
DeleteI do believe in nipping behavior in the bud, just not with punishment. In addition to pulling on his belt, I have taken to wagging my finger at Jimmy. He *hates* that in public, but it sure does work.
DeleteWhy didn't I think of wagging my finger at husband? Thank you, Belle.
DeleteBelle and Miss Cecilia, I love wagging my finger at my husband when I scold him. It feels empowering to me to express my authority with a physical gesture like that. Well, I don’t exactly “wag” my finger. Rather I hold my index finger up under my husband’s nose, and he knows that gesture means, “It’s time to stop talking and start listening, mister!” I began to use that gesture in private almost immediately when we agreed to have a FLR. It felt almost instinctive to me. But I eventually began to do it in public too. It embarrasses Wayne when I do it in public places, but that heightens its effect. I think he fears that if he continues to argue once I have made that gesture, a loud verbal scolding will follow, and he doesn’t want people to overhear that.
DeleteDanielle
Danielle
Delete“I hold my index finger up under my husband’s nose, and he knows (what) that gesture means, “
Something very similar and probably equally powerful for me is when she uses the back of her fingers on one hand while raising my chin and forcing eye contact. It may be an idiosyncratic response on my part, but outside of an actual spanking there is nothing as emotionally powerful. She very occasionally has slapped me if I was resisting her and that also stops me cold. But that chin hold puts me under control fully and immediately. It is almost hypnotic. Many times I have thought about why I react to it so strongly because I have no memories of it at home or with my former girlfriend. As with you, she has said it is instinctive and it almost certainly is. Whatever causes it, it is kryptonite to disobedience of any kind.
Alan
Alan, I do the chin hold too! LOL The purpose is, as you say, to force my husband to look me in the eyes. I usually do that if I am scolding or interrogating him, and he is trying to avoid eye contact, perhaps out of embarrassment. I love the chin hold! It’s another gesture that just came instinctively to me as a way of expressing my authority. I bet is widespread among women in DD relationships. Unlike finger “wagging”, I’ve never done the chin hold in public though. I think that might be a little too embarrassing for a husband because it shows the power dynamic so clearly.
DeleteDanielle
I'm going to try the chin lift to force eye contact. Thanks!
DeleteCecilia, that makes sense to me, adding a few extra to a punishment session so he will behave that night. I may not ever do that, but it makes sense. Thanks!
ReplyDeleteWe use preventative sometimes before a trip so my butt can remind my brain of the rules. They are not as severe as a punishment, but do work most of the time. However, if we do a preventative and it does not prevent the behavior, then the following punishment gets a little extra.
ReplyDeleteThey generally work for us, especially if I am in or going into a stressful situation or season. It reminds me the rules are there regardless of the situation.
I tend to act up on trips, too. In the past, we almost always had kids with us, which meant immediate punishment wasn't in the cards. That could change in the future, given the increasing reality of our empty-nester status.
DeleteSomethingrandom, I love love love "my butt can remind my brain of the rules." That's what happens for us during punishment.
DeleteMy former girlfriend who introduced me to DD used to say something similar, as I remember it: “Alan, there is a direct line between your bum and your brain” and her job was to keep that line open with her (sauna) brush. She had a background in the health field, so maybe she was right about that. I know it sure worked while we were together
DeleteAlan
This is Liz. I understand the objection to spankings labeled as maintenance, preventative, motivational, or reminder. But for us, the reminder spankings are the basis of our DD. They happen more often than punishment. And for us there is no concern that I am acting unfairly or the spankings have not been earned.
ReplyDeleteWhen Art initially asked me to start paddling him, one of my concerns was frequency. He was acting arrogantly almost every day, but there was no way I was going to paddle him every day! So I said that our DD needed to happen once a week.
Initially it was all punishment for the previous week's misbehavior. Both Art and I would informally keep track of incidents. We would discuss them, usually Sunday night, and the punishment would occur Monday morning after the kids got on the school bus.
Very quickly Art improved his behavior at home and we began to focus more and more on work. Of course I could not track those incidents, so we had to rely completely on Art's reporting. At some point I began asking questions during the punishment such as "Are you going to do better this week?" "Are you going to lay off _____?" (the salesman Art does not get along with) Without us really realizing it, we were transitioning from punishment for past transgressions to painful reminders of how to behave during the upcoming week.
Art had no problem with being paddled in this manner. In fact, he thinks it is a good idea. As Somethingrandom says above, his sore butt is reminding his brain of how to behave. To us it's not much different than other reminders where the wife has authority. Like a note in the husband's lunch box to make sure to pick up the dry cleaning on the way home. It may be written in a very authoritative manner, "Don't come home without the dry cleaning!" She is reinforcing the behavior that is expected. Maybe it's a silly analogy, but the paddle does the same thing for us.
Our Monday mornings are not totally reminders. We still address misbehavior in the previous week. That has become more the case recently since I can get reports on Art's behavior from a co-worker. So as Cecilia described above, it's all in one session. I think that makes it easier. It's not that the wife is spanking the husband for something he didn't do. The wife is already spanking the husband for misbehavior, and after that punishment she adds reminders about how to behave in the near future. I don't think Art even notices when we have switched from swats for the past to swats for the future. They all feel the same on his butt!
Liz
Just to clarify when I said reminders happen more often than punishment. That's not exactly right. I'm not sure if there has been a Monday morning when there was NOTHING to punish Art for. So we start with that. Then we move on to the upcoming week, though there really is no noticeable transition. On many Mondays nowadays there are more swats about the upcoming week than there were for the past week. To me that is a sign that our DD is working because he had a good week last week. But he admits that he needs a paddling to remind him to keep it up. If he completely stopped being arrogant, maybe the reminders would stop. But that's all speculative since his arrogance is unlikely to go away completely.
DeleteI think the routine we have established of paddling him every Monday (except when the kids aren't in school) has been good for Art. He knows what to expect. And it is good for me too, to remind myself of the authority I now hold in our marriage. I don't have to and won't accept his arrogance any more. Maybe we both need weekly reminders of that!
Liz
Thanks, Liz. I think it's a great point that you regular schedule also serves to remind you of your authority.
DeleteSomething that puts all of this together for me was a comment that Danielle made some time back. I don’t have the actual post, so I apologize if I mischaracterize what she said. But what I heard her say is that a DD relationship is not just about spanking or punishment but managing behavior. So a disciplinarian develops and uses the tools that do that for her. If administering a preventive spanking (as we have discussed it) works to manage Wayne’s behavior, then that’s what going to happen whether you call it maintenance, preventive or something else. It’s a tool to manage behavior. That makes a lot of sense to me.
ReplyDeleteAlan
This is Liz.
DeleteIt is a tool to manage behavior. An externally applied tool, which makes it somewhat different than the tools we each use to manage our own behavior.
Some on here believe that this particular tool is not appropriate as preventive but only as consequence. I think that's partly because the long history of corporal punishment is that it is only a consequence, not preventative or motivational or as a reminder. It feels different from a tool like meditation or prayer, which many people use both before a certain experience and after it to manage the stress that occurs before, during, and after.
It would be interesting if there were any nonfiction accounts from the past of corporal punishment used in a preventative manner. I imagine there would be extreme objections from parents if that happened in school, for instance. I can see how it would be considered unjustified and even illegal. But not in a consensual adult relationship where both agree that painful reminders are appropriate. For a few of us that tool has saved our marriages.
I'm not aware of any historical examples involving corporal punishment, but it's kind of like a paroled criminal having to check in regularly with the probation officer. There is a punitive element involved in having one's freedom restricted because of past criminal acts, but the parole check-ins also serve to deter future bad behavior and nip it in the bud before it happens.
DeleteThe way I see parole is that it’s a part or extension of the punishment for the crime. It’s part of the consequences. If my wife felt it necessary to apply punishment in some way that extends the state of being punished, then that could work for me. Punishment as consequences for failure is in some way a deterrent or a prevention, but there must be a crime committed, and some point where it’s over and we move on. Parole can’t last forever.
DeleteI mostly agree, Brett, but I now can see a possibility where a preventive/reminder spanking might be called for.
DeleteIf a misbehavior is repeated several times, and the punishment spankings and verbal reminders before the next opportunity to misbehave don't seem to be having much effect, then previously my response would be to spank him harder after the next incident because I am obviously not getting through. But Dan and others have described incidents where they just totally lose track of the consequence that will follow their misbehavior, or even that they are misbehaving. This happens even when the consequence for the previous incident of the same misbehavior has been severe. And these husbands say they are not being intentionally recalcitrant, but rather are just not thinking clearly (or are "thinking" with the wrong part of their anatomy).
In such cases, a stinging butt just before the opportunity to misbehave again may be the best chance to prevent the transgression, and as you say, Brett, could be considered an extension of the previous punishment for the same behavior.
Brett, what would you think if your wife said to you while spanking you, "I have had to spank you like this after each time we have gone out with these friends and relatives, so I am going to extend this punishment and spank you *before* the next time we go out with them so that you can remember to behave yourself."
Delete> Brett, what would you think if your wife said to you while spanking you, "I have had to spank you like this after each time we have gone out with these friends and relatives, so I am going to extend this punishment and spank you *before* the next time we go out with them so that you can remember to behave yourself."
DeleteBelle, I see this as a practice that must be designed and implemented for the person being disciplined. In my case, I would want a DD relationship where spanking has a clear and specific meaning, and that takes priority over even a practical value of discipline. But as an argument for effective discipline, if I had a recurring behavioral problem, and multiple punishments were not correcting the issue, then would extra spankings prevent anything? For me, knowing that a spanking is possible would definitely influence my behavior, but if the problem persists, then I believe some other solution would have to be found. An extended punishment as you describe is possible if my wife decided that’s what needs to be done, however, I would consider it to be the consequence of past misbehavior. To me, spanking is for punishment, and there still is no such thing as punishment for something that may or may not occur in the future.
Ultimately, it will depend on compatibility. As long as I can respect my wife’s decisions, then I want her to exert her agreed upon authority. There has been discussion about a wife spanking simply as a way to demonstrate her power and his obedience — a “reminder.” That isn’t my thing, so to speak, but I could find it exciting if she is doing it because it excites her. If dominance for her is sexual, then that’s a different dynamic (not DD) we can enjoy together and without pretense.
I have found that dominance (I call it power) is sexual for me, but I can't see myself spanking my husband just to arouse myself. That would seem totally selfish to me and ruin the DD agreement between us. Even if he got aroused, too, it just seems wrong for us when it isn't punishment and I think would lessen its power as punishment. Nor do either of us need a kink to get turned on. After three years apart but often in each other's prescence, and in our 30s, we can't keep our hands off each other.
DeleteIf my wife is aroused by spanking, and she doesn’t try to justify it as punishment when it’s not, then I’ll respect it for what it is. As long as it’s consensual, then she’s not being selfish.
DeleteMy fetish is spanking. While I certainly get turned on by other things, the kink is always a big part of my sexuality whether I want it that way or not.
Danielle here:
DeleteAlan wrote: >>>Something that puts all of this together for me was a comment that Danielle made some time back. I don’t have the actual post, so I apologize if I mischaracterize what she said. But what I heard her say is that a DD relationship is not just about spanking or punishment but managing behavior. So a disciplinarian develops and uses the tools that do that for her. If administering a preventive spanking (as we have discussed it) works to manage Wayne’s behavior, then that’s what going to happen whether you call it maintenance, preventive or something else. It’s a tool to manage behavior. That makes a lot of sense to me.<<<
I was too occupied with other things to post this week, but I will just say that, yes, you have accurately stated my thoughts on the topic of preventative spanking, Alan. If spanking is viewed purely as punishment, preventative spanking doesn’t make sense. But you are correct that I view it as “behavior management” rather than just punishment. I have used it in a specific context with my husband in the past. The men in my husband’s extended family have epic political arguments during family dinners. I have always found that annoying, especially when Wayne gets involved, which he often does...or rather used to. Therefore, I have on a couple of occasions spanked him before going to a family dinner to heighten his consciousness of the behavior I expect of him. I also couple the preventative spanking with the implied threat that if I have to intervene in an argument during dinner, I just might "forget myself" and remind him of the consequences of misbehavior at the dinner table. I have found that it works. That’s the important thing to me.
That implied threat of intervening coupled with a warm bum is going to keep peace in any family. My first preventive spanking occurred under very similar circumstances and had become a holiday tradition of sorts until two years ago.
DeleteAlan
Everybody please understand I'm not trying to say "preventive" or "maintenance" discipline is the wrong way to do it. I can see why some couples do it. As a couple of people have said, the purpose of DD is to correct bad behavior and make sure it doesn't keep happening. I can see where it works for some couples.
ReplyDeleteI can even understand that I might see a need for applying preventive discipline to husband for a specific occasion but I can't see how using it regularly would work for us. Like Belle, the way it works for us is
1. "I said don't do this" or "You agreed not to do this".
2. You did this.
3. I don't like that. Be dressed (as I decree), in full make up and in the corner at (time, day and date).
Of course, if there's time, I can send him upstairs immediately to get dressed, put on his makeup and get in the corner until I call him out of it to begin the discipline. Usually, we both have busy schedules for work, so I have to schedule a time when we can both be home and have enough time to get ready.
I am realizing that the concept of preventive spankings is a bit more complex than I had thought. I can see reasons for it, and I appreciate this discussion. I think it is one of the best I have been part of here.
ReplyDeleteMy husband has a history of crossing the line into inappropriate behavior when we go out drinking with friends. It happens at least half the time. I get the concept that spanking him before we go out and putting a night-long sting in his bottom could serve as an excellent reminder throughout the gettogether.
I asked Jimmy what he thought about me spanking him before we go out as a preventive measure. He didn't like it, just as I anticipated. He asked me why I would spank him before he has done anything wrong. He was a bit incredulous. I told him I had no plans to do that, but that some wives did and it is something we may need to address in the future if he keeps misbehaving at the bar. He said that the belt tug works and is a much better way to quiet him down, even though he doesn't really like that either. I agreed that we would stick with the belt tug, "for now." He looked at me and a nonverbal exchange crossed between us. It was something like, "Belle is showing Jimmy just how much power she has in this marriage." I liked that. A lot.
It sounds as though your thoughts are trending along the same lines as my wife's, Belle! If punishment needs little explanation and ultimately is just an expected tool to emphasise accountability and authority, preventative/motivational discipline brings something else with it.
DeleteOn the occasions that my wife chooses to use it, I realise even more clearly that the choices are hers and the power is hers. However important or strong-willed or independent or carefree I may think I can be, I am sharply reminded that there isn't a moment when my wife can't bring me down to the level she pleases if she sees a need for it. It is exceptionally humbling and, as you say, it leaves no doubt where the power in our marriage lies.
Belle’s comment about Jimmy not liking the idea of preventive spanking suggests another benefit of the practice that I hadn’t really thought about. But it teaches obedience especially when a husband initially thinks the spanking is unfair or unwarranted – but still submits to her authority. Thinking back I have probably learned more about obedience in those situation where I have been punished despite disagreeing with her reasons. As I have mentioned before and several other husbands have also recounted, it is amazing how often a guy moves from resisting a punishment before it happens to admitting it was necessary afterward. My feelings before a spanking are completely genuine but a brush or paddle (or strap) are great persuaders as well as great truth serums
DeleteAlan
I've been trying to recall if there were "preventive" spankings. I don't think so. But on occasion there were specific warnings.
DeleteIn general, it was probably not much of an issue for us. If I knew that something would make her unhappy or uncomfortable, that was enough for me. I was definitely not like a docile pet or anything. She liked my spunk and spark. She just had a classier and more restrained manner with the public.
Tomy, I like "spunk and spark." Jimmy has that too. We call it swag. I would never want a docile pet and that was my primary concern before we started DD. Guys on this blog assured me I would not have to worry about that, and I haven't had to. He's just as macho and boisterous as he ever was, but he seldom disrespects me or other women anymore, and when he does he gets his butt spanked!
DeleteAlan, I really like "a brush or paddle (or strap) are great persuaders as well as great truth serums." Ain't that the truth! I also like the paddle that says "marriage counselor" on it.
DeleteBelle wrote: “I also like the paddle that says "marriage counselor" on it.” Maybe that’s s a slogan that should be taken more seriously. Considering how many man and women apparently fantasize about or actually want spanked, I wonder how many working marriage counselors actually include DD in their repertoire. The Journal of Sexual Medicine reported in a recent survey that close to 40 percent of males alone fantasize about or actually want spanked. Those numbers sound high, but 20 percent would not be surprising. That’s a lot of guys and a lot of marriages.. Given what many of us have discovered about the benefits of DD in committed relationships, maybe marriage counselors should look into it. Before anyone gets their panties in a bunch, I am not saying spanking solves all problems or that it is for everyone. Neither of those ides is even remotely correct. But it can make a basically good relationship even better and can flatten out some of the wrinkles that turn up in every relationship. IF we have any marriage counselors on the blog, please gives us a thought or two on this.
DeleteAlan
The lead image on Disciplined Hubbies 303 shows a Disciplinary Counselor at work:
Deletehttps://disciplinedhubbies.blogspot.com/2019/07/the-club-meeting-303-witnesses.html
It might be my favorite of all the images Dan's featured here! I think it illustrates a technique that's probably fairly uncommon, though as you say Alan, perhaps it should be more often used!
CrimsonKing
It may not be my favorite, but I do like it!
DeleteI doubt DD is used by many marriage counselors, but while I agree with Alan it isn't a cure-all, I also genuinely believe it could help many marriages where the problems are rooted in one spouse's arrogance, insensitivity, etc.
FYI, probably won't be posting today. I hope everyone has a great Memorial Day weekend.
Why would I let a marriage counselor spank my husband in front of me when I can do it so well myself? Haha
DeleteWe currently don't need marriage counseling, but if we did I could see us needing to tell about our DD, since it's the main way we maintain our agreements regarding Jimmy's behavior.
Hi Dan,
ReplyDeleteI cant really think of anything to say about preventative spankings other than we haven't exactly used them. Of course, as I have often said, most of our spankings are not even about bad behavior, so even if we did preventative spankings, it might look somewhat different than what other couples are doing.
Though I have nothing to contribute, I have enjoyed all of the conversation this week!
-ZM
Prevention (for me) happens in a warning rather than any disciplinary activity which feels more 'just' if such a concept can be applied to a DD relationship. Preventative punishment lacks the direct 'cause and effect' that we feel is necessary. The closest we have ever come to preventative action is where I am spanked for an offence that normally would not result in a spanking just because 'you haven't had one for a while'. And I suppose I'm OK with that.
ReplyDeletePS (and completely unrelated) but I was at the receiving end of a fairly enthusiastic strapping yesterday, first one for a while, which was really getting to me. I buried my head in a pillow (as I was being too noisy) and then somehow also covered my ears with the pillow quite tightly a process which bizarrely seemed to reduce the sting I was feeling with each stroke. Not hearing the sound seemed to reduce the pain! The downside is that I think because of my lower than usual vocal response, she may have been encouraged to try harder and longer with the result that the aftereffects are more uncomfortable than usual...
Those "first in a while" spankings are always SO hard . . .
DeleteOne of those seems to be growing immanent for me. I don't know exactly when, But I'm zeroing in on whom, and I know why.
DeleteIt's been years and I am getting VERY nervous about it. This is NOT something I want to do.
Good boy, Tomy!
DeleteWhat do the Rolling Stones say about wants and needs?
Belle
"You can't always get what you want
DeleteBut if you try sometimes, well, you might find
You get what you need"
Wow! That sounds like a great development!
DeleteDan,
DeleteThere's still the hurdle of getting the money together, which may sound trivial, but it's not. And then there's the matter of "This is NOT something I want to do" and as it the reality sinks in, well it ain't fun to anticipate.
Still, I concede that you are right. It is undeniably a POSITIVE development and it is coming about due to genuine loving DWC support, which makes my heart happy even though other parts of me will not be.
😘😋
DeleteTB,
ReplyDeleteYou would think that with your hearing cut off, your other senses would be heightened, and you would feel the strapping more! Plus more of a surprise factor than when you can hear her preparing to swing.
I want my husband vocal. It means I'm getting through to him. It's also evidence of my power. I like the sound of the bath brush landing, too. I'm glad our living situation is such that we don't have to worry about the sounds of spanking.
I want to get a leather paddle that I can use OTK. I imagine I'll like the sound of that, too.
Belle, I believe that I covered my ears after what I think of as the first painful cycle, the first series of strokes - which for me are always the most painful and 'stinging'. Once I am over that peak of pain where the newness of it makes me often think (and noisily indicate) that I really cannot take it, then I can usually settle into a bearable state of discomfort which builds again to being almost unbearable depending on long the strapping goes on. I rarely go numb as others have described and as I say, not hearing the regular strokes seemed to diminish the actual pain - but that is based on once session and luckily I have yet to experience a repeat session.
DeleteWe have a leather paddle which excellent in that it does not sting as much as the strap! We don't do OTK and so the paddle is rarely used but I can imagine it being very effective for a skilled user... TB
I have a new bit of awareness about preventive-related spanking. It came in a dream visit last night. My Angel, who I do see frequently in the Ether, told me I need a "tune up".
ReplyDeleteTune up was her term when she sensed that too long had gone by, for me, without a spanking. These times were not angry, or disciplinary. They were simply her keenly observing me, which she did all the time to better understand me and make my life happy.
Anyway, when she mentioned a tune up, now that I think back on it, was more of a suggestion or an offer, than an order If I asked why she said that she told me that, again her words, "it was just eking out."
She was literally ALWAYS right. It might have been a bit of sarcasm, or being uncharacteristically short with her. Nothing blatant believe me. And I would disagree about needing it. I suppose it was an automatic reaction since even then I knew she was right.
She would insist, but not employ her DWC authority and I usually took my medicine. And you know what? It WAS medicine. It was one of the many ways she holistically looked after my health and well-being. These were not severe sessions; but on the other hand she was always conscientious about anything she did. To this day I remind myself of her high standards to encourage myself do do things a little better than I might otherwise.
It definitely sounds like some things are pushing you toward exploring making DD a part of your life again.
DeleteMaybe so Dan. Looking at what I wrote in that comment it's hard to disagree. But there's a lot of balls in the air and only time will tell.
DeleteTomy,
ReplyDeleteIt sounds to me like she actually was spanking you for something. You mentioned being sarcastic or uncharacteristically short with her. So she was being more strict than she might be otherwise, but she was responding to actual misbehavior. I get that totally, and I have done that with Jimmy on several occasions. He has been very good about not objecting, but he did ask me once why he was being paddled for a particular misbehavior that I had allowed to go on in the recent past, even though it was part of our DD agreement. I asked him if he had misbehaved just now, even if not severely, and he agreed that he had. Nuff said, I replied and got down to business. To me this is not prevention, it is consequences, though I get that it has a preventive aspect to it. But I would not have spanked him without the mild transgression.
Once again Belle's insight rings with the sensibility and tenor that reminds me of Aunt Kay. She cuts through to point of my behavior being the catalyst. But it WAS proper "medicine" for my good health -mental and physical.
DeleteI agree with that. In addition to being good for our marriage, I am coming to find that DD is good for both of our health, definitely mental and emotional. Not sure about physical and spiritual. In whaylt way, Tomy, was being spanked good for your physical health?
Delete