“Being powerful is like being a lady. If you have to tell people you are, you aren't.”
― Margaret Thatcher
Hi all. Welcome back to the Disciplinary Couples Club, our weekly gathering of men and women participating or interested in Domestic Discipline.
Well, another week, another week in which the political elements of the discussion outweighed the discussion of the actual blog topic. I need to think about that more, because I’m not willing to completely stop commenting on politics and current events, but I’m also more than a little tired of getting drawn into pointless conversations. One of the few resolutions on my trimmed down list for 2021 was to stop wasting time on the 20% of people and activities that account for 80% of the time and energy I fritter away. Less than a month into the new year, I have sure failed at that one.
Though, perhaps there is light at the end of the tunnel. Six days and a few Twitter and Facebook bans after the insurrection and the inauguration, I realized a couple of days ago that I’d gone almost a full day without once thinking about anyone named Trump. Here’s hoping for more and more of those.
I remain in a sort of flat and uninspired place where DD is concerned, probably because it has taken me so long to recuperate from the health issues that culminated late last year that we haven’t had any real disciplinary action at home. I sometimes feel like the epitome of “those can do, and those who can’t teach.” But, I feel like every week brings us a little closer to normality and a return to the dynamic we were working on right before the holidays. In the meantime, I can thank our loyal community members for bailing me out when I don’t have much inspiration to come up with a topic on my own.
In that spirit, a couple of weeks ago, Alan suggested the following topic:
I have been perusing some M/F blogs lately and it occurred to me a topic we have not taken on directly (so I remember) is the similarities and differences between the two expressions of DD – sort of a compare and contrast discussion. Some of us have been on both sides of the paddle, so it would be interesting to hear those impressions too. Judging from internet evidence (which may not be very reliable evidence) the M/F spanking orientation is much more common and apparently many more women are interested in being spanked then are men. But as we have covered, there is undoubtedly much cultural and social conditioning at work there –so maybe that’s up for discussion too.
I don’t have much in the way of personal experience with this one, so I’m depending on all of you to chime in to the extent you do have personal anecdotes to offer. I will note that one area in which I think there is a big difference between the two dynamics is the quality of spanking art, particularly when it comes to conveying emotions.
Drawings depicting
disciplined husbands showing real emotion before, during and after a spanking,
are few and far between. On the other
hand, I think there are many great examples of spanking themed art, and some
spanking pictures, in which the women show some real fear or anxiety before the
spanking or some real distress while it is happening. The men depicted in spanking art always seem to be either surprised, stoic or angry before and during a spanking. For whatever reason, artists seem better able to show female spankees about to get a spanking and genuinely not wanting it or distressed that they just got one.
I see the same thing in spanking-themed photographs. Female spankees are simply more emotive.
I also find that despite being in a F/m dynamic exclusively, I do have strong reactions to spanking art with female spankees, though in many instances the depicted spanker is another female. That includes art that depicts a “maternal” dynamic with a misbehaving daughter and a strict, spanking mother. Those are so much more appealing to me than the examples I have in my collection of mothers spanking misbehaving boys.
Those artists who deal in both dynamics seem to me to treat the subjects very differently. For example, some of Jay Em’s art can be pretty “severe” with respect to women spanking men, while his examples with female spankees have more of a genuine “domestic” vibe.
Tomy has talked about Aunt Kay's meetings in which husbands were spanked by other wives. One could envision similar group-oriented sessions with female spankees.
Art aside, as I said, I don’t have much personal experience with the M/f dynamic. I do have one blogging friend who is a submissive, and from what I can see her motivations for wanting to be “taken in hand” are similar to my own. She is very focused and directed and achievement oriented, and I think that DD brings her a sense of balance. She has to exercise a lot of control in her professional life, and I think she enjoys some of the same relief I do at giving up some control at home.
On the more negative side, I have taken part in a few DD-related forums and Facebook groups that were heavily tilted toward the M/f dynamic, and two aspects were troubling to me. First, many of the women seemed to have gone way beyond submission into states of unhealthy dependence. They would wring their hands endlessly if their husbands were going out of town on business for a couple of days, talking about how hard it would be to make it without them and how terribly upsetting the prospect was of being alone. It really did seem to me to be potentially very unhealthy. The world is a dangerous place, and spouses often find themselves unexpectedly alone. It does not seem to me to be a good thing to have a relationship that is quite that one-sided, to the point that one of the parties seems unlikely to be able to take care of themselves if the proverbial shit hits the fan. Second, the male tops were often insufferably arrogant, which to me is an indication of inner insecurity. It made me wonder whether they are “really” dominant, or just compensating.
I also have noticed that the “Daddy-Little Girl” dynamic is fairly prevalent in the M/f community. I used to think that didn’t have a corollary in the F/m world, but it plainly does. I think I was a little closed off to the Maternal element underlying some of my own disciplinary drives, and it seems to me now that maybe women in M/f dynamics are just more open and authentic about their own parental leanings.
That taps pretty much all my experience
in this area. What about you? Have you taken part in a M/f-oriented
disciplinary or D/s relationship? Or, perhaps
you have friends or relatives in that dynamic?
How is it similar to the M/f dyamic?
Are there differences? If you
have not participated in that dynamic, do you have any desire to? Also, just to cover all bases, feel free to talk about your experience with F/f dynamics as well.
I hope you all have a great week.
Interesting opportunity to share some hitherto unshared facts that have a common theme. I have definitely been the Top in several situations. I have switched early on in most of my significant relationships, but in nearly every case that switching was much more scene-based. Most of the women I "Topped" were not looking to be held accountable to rules, though a couple were. However, in every case, over time the switch 'drift' led to less of me Topping and more of them Topping. And in nearly every case, that shift eventually became both permanent AND DD-oriented with them in charge.
ReplyDeleteI also had some interim play relationships between my ex and Rosa. Two were M/f exclusively, and one was F/m exclusively. None of these ladies ever switched roles. However, none of the "bottom" women ever wished to be fully submissive. They just wanted to be smacked.
So I don't know if it's the kind of woman I'm attracted to or the type of woman who finds me appealing to play with, or something else entirely, but it seems that no matter what started things off, or who was the bottom originally, over time I have always found myself the submissive to someone more than happy to not just 'scene' but declare rules, spank for misbehavior in a genuine fashion, AND also take control over my orgasms. The repeated nature to this is almost freaky. And despite the number of women out there who seek genuine accountability in a DD arrangement, I never ended up Topping anyone like that.
As for the three play-people......those were all temporary relationships. One ending when things just didn't work out, another when circumstance forced her to move too far away to comfortably play, and the third when I got began to get serious with Rosa and ended the relationship (quite amicably).
That's pretty interesting that in all your previous switching, things always drifted into them topping and it becoming DD oriented. And, while I've always thought there are a small number of women who are "natural" disciplinarians, many seem very comfortable taking on that role even if they weren't originally inclined in that direction. That's always given me some hope that when a man knows he wants this lifestyle, he isn't really locked into finding someone with a pre-existing interest. In many cases it seems possible to "convert" a vanilla into a will, and even enthusiastic, Top.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteWell, I wouldn't go so far as to say "convert a vanilla". I don't hold a lot of hope in that area. While some of these ladies were in and around my vanilla circle, my interest in them was rooted in something I sensed. In the case of the others, it was a given since I met them through online sites. I do think adventurous people can be curious though, but those folks also can't keep it going forever unless it's a real driving interest. By considering a long first marriage, with just a 7 year period before Rosa, all of these other relationships fit into that timeline.......one that lasted a few years, but many of the others being far more brief. And with the play ones, some overlap too.
DeleteHowever, my takeaway in thinking about this is perhaps what the disciplinarians in my current life tell me is actually true: this type of accountability just flat-out suits me. I wonder if that part of me comes across to women with a dominant streak and acts as some catalyst to them to provide it? or benefit from it in some way?
I do think there's something else there besides just being open to spanking because the statistics demonstrate over and over that most spanking folks DON'T gravitate towards DD. So how then did I get so lucky? If it was just luck it kind of defies the odds. Even the one clearly casual "play partner" told me that if things were different she would have liked to have maybe grown closer so that DD could be a possibility between us, because she felt DD would only feel real in the confines of an actual relationship........... and she was the epitome of a Dominant scene player who had never even considered lifestyle DD until she met me.
Even Rosa started out as the bottom seeking sensation play. Then we switched still with spanking as a play activity, and then? When she moved in with me, the DD started immediately and she believes as strongly in it today as she did a dozen years ago!
The only "failures" I experienced in having a kinky woman wish to be n authority figure for me were with the two 'bottom' women. When I offered up the possibility of switching to them, neither was interested nor felt they could even do it as a favor.
And then there's Nickki and Jean! Nickki was always into BDSM fantasies, but not Jean who really was a true vanilla (with some rainbow sprinkles). And you know THAT story and how it developed. So what do you think? Is it luck striking again at finding these hidden DD-ers? Am I converting people without knowing it like some sort of kinky cult leader? LOL Or is is something in them I sense? Or something in me that they sense that brings this out? Like I said, I'm not lying about any of it and it defies the odds when you hear of people who can't even find one willing partner to do this with. And I'm not rich, or possess a muscular body, or consider myself handsome in the way of other guys I've known who have had women come over and hand them their number. I mean I may not be Gilbert Gottfried, but I'm no George Clooney either. LOL
"Am I converting people without knowing it like some sort of kinky cult leader?" Love it! Maybe that should be your new life goal -- evangelize DD and get yourself a big harem of acolytes. They could hang out in the airports collecting donations, and everyone would know them by the paddles they'd carry. LoL!
DeleteSeriously though, I suspect there's a big spectrum of curiosity and openness to alternatives. "Convert" probably was the wrong word, but I think some things we are not inclined strongly toward at first can became acquired tastes. Kind of like people who hate exercise but do it to address some health problem, then end up living to run marathons.
I suspect you are right too that women with dominant personalities can sense when a man has accountability needs. Or, maybe it's that we who have those needs can sense when a woman has a desire--conscious or subconscious--to dominate? Maybe both? Before Anne, most of my relationships barely qualified for that word. I was never really with anyone long enough, especially when I was older, to explore many longer term kink dynamics. But, it's also true that on one level or another, I seem to attract very strong women. I had semi-inappropriate relationships with teachers who were very strong women, and I certainly tended to get crushes on those kinds of authority figures. Many of my friends in high school, college and at work are strong, authoritarian women. Many men and women have "work wife" and "work husband" relationships that may be platonic but have a lot of the earmarks of stable partnerships. Almost every single time I have had one of those really close working relationships, it has been with a strong female. There have been exceptions with a couple of men, but I do seem to both gravitate to and be attractive to women who are comfortable with their authority and power, even in platonic work relationships. Conversely, I have had a few subordinates who plainly thrived on being bossed around, and who could really only perform when managed with a very heavy hand. Frankly, while I can be friends or mentors to those people, I really detested managing them, precisely because it required me to be authoritarian in a way that I just don't like.
Oddly enough, I never had an issue with being in charge. I still like when people just listen to me on a project and follow my directions. Everything just works out so much more smoothly. (It's actually an area of contention between me and Rosa at times and it's not because she thinks my directions are wrong but because she bristles at being told what to do. LOL.) And even if I had to get tough with certain types of workers, it didn't bother me. I just saw it as another type of person who required a different type of motivation; all practical.
DeleteBut maybe that's also why I can Top and you feel you couldn't? And for the record? I don't do well with strong hyper-dominant women at all! My best relationships have been with women who can or did switch to degree. So I guess I like tough, firm women, with a couple of notches down on the intensity chart. I used to always end up arguing and having terrible interactions with the Dommes who felt the world should stop thinking and just obey them because they happen to had a leather outfit on. LOL
(you should have seen some of the disaster conversations at the BDSM munches I used to got to, depending on where I sat at the dinner table. LOL)
It's hard to tell how much our tastes differ, without knowing the women at issue. The ones I was referring to from my past definitely fit in the tough and firm category. I'd also throw in "naturally confident." But, they didn't really cross the line into "hyper-dominant," though it's possible some of the wimpier men who worked with them might disagree with me on that.
DeleteI definitely do like it when I set the direction and people follow. It's what happens when they don't, and when it is a project that I'm responsible for, that things can go awry. I get really frustrated when I feel like I've given clear directions, and they aren't followed. Or, when someone just drops the ball and puts us at risk of missing a deadline, or the work quality sucks and I have to redo it. I totally hate those conversations, and I tend to just disengage from the offender if it's a repeat problem. It's a passive-aggressive kind of leadership, and not my finest quality.
I am not sure if you've ever ventured into the "scene" but in it are all kinds of people, and some (or many) of the dominants of both genders are completely infected with "Top's Disease". (Maybe when Covid is under control, Pfizer can turn its attention to curing that malady? LOL) These are the types I am referring to. The ones who like being abusive to waiters and waitresses, demeaning to everyone even if not in the 'scene' and particularly demeaning to subs in the scene. Their assumption that I am going to let them ramble about things they are clearly wrong about just because they are the 'Tops' is a mistake on their part. My feeling with these types has always been: "you may be A top, but you're not MY top."
DeleteNo, no venturing into the scene for me, but I understand what you mean. I absolutely hate people who are abusive to waiters and waitress, retail workers, etc. At my last job, when we were hiring for a position, we *always* debriefed with the assistants who set up the interview appointments, arranged travel, etc. and with the front desk receptionists, to see how each candidate treated *them*. It was surprising and depressing how many people came off as friendly and engaging when dealing with their future boss and peers but were assholes to the staff they engaged with.
DeleteIt's funny how in a society that is so skewed towards religious belief, that so many of these self-professed "whatevers" usually end up in real life situations resembling more of "shit walking on two legs" than the enlightened beings they profess to be.
DeleteWhat ever you wish to be involved with and finding the right person.
ReplyDeleteThe best man and maid of honor at our wedding were most definitely in a M/f DD relationship. We didn't talk about it, because my parents were there too. She was willing to Top other guys, so one time, I was at their apartment, I got to see him spank her, then she spanked me, then he caned me.
ReplyDeleteThat's a very interesting set of relationships. I've yet to be spanked or caned or anything of the sort by a man, but one never knows . . .
DeleteDan,
ReplyDelete"Have you taken part in a M/f-oriented disciplinary or D/s relationship? If you have not participated in that dynamic, do you have any desire to?"
No. I would have liked to experience M/f discipline. I consider myself open to it. I don't want to rehash comments from the past but there was always some level of F/m discipline in our marriage. I told my husband I was curious about being disciplined over the years. He's too submissive to me. My hubby can manage work and people, but he has always melted around me. I'm not complaining. He enjoys a little kink being the submissive husband and I enjoy the extra benefits that come from being a dominant wife. I haven't touched the vacuum clear or stacked the dishwasher in weeks. I snapped my fingers yesterday before bed and he stood in the corner for 20 minutes! We're happy so I'll do without discipline.
Carol H.
Hi Carol. It sounds like the trade-offs have worked out great for you on balance.
DeleteThank you Dan. The trade-offs really have worked out.
DeleteHave a nice weekend.
Carol H.
Probably the most valuable thing I learned from having Aunt Kay in my life was what unequivocal generosity looked and felt like. Her disciplinary role and actions were ultimately based on fulfilling my need. She understood it and of course was natural at it.
ReplyDeleteBeing loved by her was amazing and transformative and although I am very much the small "m", I think I could fully take the big "M" role now if someone I loved needed and wanted that. The DD, as major a factor in our relationship, was one example of her generosity and understanding. I like to believe that I have transformed to be more like she was.
If someone important in my life really needed it, I'd probably find a way to accommodate it, though I have a real, deep-seated aversion to being in that role, particularly regarding corporal punishment.
DeleteNo stats at all, but I think that for people who are true spanko fetishists, I think there are more and stronger sub tendencies for all sexes. I.e. most can live without spanking others, but not live without being spanked.
ReplyDeleteYou're probably right, and I think it also extends beyond true spankos and into the D/s mindset as a whole, and even into non-kink areas. Let's face, there are way more people who are comfortable being followers than people who genuinely like to lead. And, while I'm leery of always trying to attribute current behavior to some evolutionary-biology adaptation, the seeming 10:1 ratio of followers to leaders makes sense to me in those terms. Herd and pack animals have to work together to survive. Having too many leaders trying to direct the same group of followers is a prescription for disaster, with conflicting direction and orders being almost inevitable. Think of a small wolf pack with two Alphas both trying to independently direct a hunt. For good and ill, I suspect we as a species are biologically predisposed to the sheep outnumbering the potential shepherds by 10:1. Where DD gets kind of interesting, however, is that there seem to be many of those small number of natural leaders who rebel against being saddled with those leadership burdens 24:7 and who, in some aspect of their life, want to give up control. There also are those who see being on the receiving end of the paddle as helping them stay on task and further develop. So, while I think we probably are predisposed to having lots of followers and few real leaders, it's a complicated picture.
DeleteM/f wouldn't happen in our house.
ReplyDeleteMiss Cecilia wears the pants, Miss Cecilia makes the Rules.
Husband wears the panties, husband obeys the Rules.
As I have shared previously on here I spent the years 13-53 convinced I was M/F wired only. As a kink it has numerious possibilities and lots going for it. Originally I always had a passion for the grown up schoolgirl and that is what Mrs GL (and those ex gf's I could persuade to try) was happy to indulge me with. However once marriage and kids came along the opportunities were very restricted. I considered asking for a M/F DD element but was put off a bit by the Christian element and also by Mrs GL's disconnection between saying it was ok but acting like it wasn't. Finally, as also shared here previously I suggested F/M to make M/F more palatable, within 6 months it was only F/M in play and that has stuck now for 5 years.
ReplyDeleteCan see myself reigniting my M/F side one day but not whilst my F/M side strives for more range and passion at home. Cheers GLM.
You're right that the Christian DD thing is another thing that distinguishes *some* M/f DD relationships. At some point, I received a paper someone had written that tried to lay a biblical foundation for F/m DD, but it is a tough case to make, and the M/f dynamic seems to be almost exclusive in Christian DD arrangements.
DeleteDan,
DeleteThat makes sense because the bible came out of a strong traditional patriarchal culture; had it come out of a matriarchal culture ( there have been a few ) there might have been similar support for F/M.
Alan
The interesting thing is though, the females around Jesus are portrayed as strong, independent, interesting people, while the male disciples come off as a bunch of inept, dim, pussies.
DeleteWhether one seeks/ is attracted to adult spanking at all is driven by genetic influences conditioned much by the environment. This needs to be labeled as theory since there is very little data that explains sexual orientation of any kind. Within this framework, I believe many more people are potential spankos then those who become spankos -but they never strike the environmental spark, such as an experience, a relationship, or exposure to an idea or concept that triggers the underlying spanko disposition. For those who do become spankos ( and the number seems to be increasing ) I think Julie is correct that the sub or bottom roles tend to be a magnet for many, with culture, and socialization forces pushing others into a dominant role (when they often could comfortable be in the sub role.) This is particularly true for males who play the dominant role for females who want and expect them to do so. And it is true for some women who take on the disciplinarian role to fill the needs of a loved partner. I am not excluding “real” dominants in this, i.e. those both male and female spankos who identify exclusively with being in charge and for which nothing else would work. I don’t think there are many of them but there are a few. All the above can be summed up as: most spankos are potentially switches, while a minority are not. Re the M/F orientation, the psychology of it seems very similar to F/M, with a main difference being the culture supports M/F much more than its inverse. (I am not ignoring M/ or F/F spanking but I have no experience in it and no basis to discuss it.) Personally spanking permeated my thoughts from a very early age with the M/F orientation my default choice. I was in my late 20’s before I felt any draw toward F/M and it was beginning a relationship with a women who believed in spanking that finally triggered F/M for me. After that first real spanking from her I never looked back. My wife through a different set of experiences had firmly adopted the F/M orientation before I met her. But she had experience a fairly long M/F relationship before doing so .Bottom line if there is one: spankos arrive at their own bottom line through a myriad of paths, but most want/need to be subject to spanking while a minority prefer to do the spanking. The appearance of differences between men and women in these patterns and preferences is more apparent than real
ReplyDeleteAlan
Alan, it may be true that most spankos are potentially switches, though the examples so far all seem to be switching in a particular direction, i.e. men starting as dominants or into M/f spanking scenarios, but at some point experiencing F/m DD and then going in that direction.
DeleteI agree and that has certainly been my experience. Being a "switch" and having the experience of switching may be two different things.
DeleteAlan
I have been on both sides of the paddle, and since April 2018, I have been the occasional happy recipient of many spankings. Some disciplinary, others just for the fun of it. The gentleman prefers to use other forms of discipline/punishment because he knows I actually secretly enjoy paddlings, canings, and floggings.
ReplyDeleteNow, not speaking for myself, but wanting to share what my female friends have shared about their M/f discipline relationships, many, if not most of them, enter an agreement on what is done or allowed within their individual relationship, whether it is an oral or written agreement.
Some of those agreements have things that I would be reluctant to engage in, but to each their own. In my agreement with Shilo (F/m)I was in charge of all decisions, and any discipline I chose he would agree to and submit to, and there was no getting out of it. It seems severe, and it was, but it worked at the time. Every few months, we would reassess the agreement and work through issues.
In my M/f relationship, I have given "blanket consent" knowing and trusting that "B" will use common sense and not cause me any harm on purpose. Has he hurt me and/or made me cry? Yes, of course he has, but he has made me smile and laugh in delight many more times. He has never been unfair in my opinion, and we always discuss my feelings and his reasoning when it comes to discipline/punishment after the fact. The very first time he punished me (and I definitely DESERVED it) once the crying was over, I looked at him, and I was able to see it from his side, and I admired his creativity, because he did something that was truly punishment for me, but he was only able to do it, because he knew me well enough to know I would hate it, but also see it as fair. We call it "THAT time" and never discuss the details, and I have begged him to never do it again.
Ah, c'mon you big tease! You now have me all intrigued about what the punishment was!
Deletebut honestly, you wouldn't understand. Your response would be "That's not a big deal."
DeleteDan: I did not know about this incident until I read about it here. It took a concerted effort to get Merry to tell me about it, After which, my reaction was, "And that was it?"
DeleteYeah, I get it. We're all wired so differently. Corner time seems like a common example. It basically has no effect on me, despite the fact that I'm generally pretty hyper. I tend to go into a meditative state and could hang out there for 30 minutes without caring much. For others, its excruciating.
DeleteYeah...Merry used to impose corner time on me, because in our negotiations, I said, I think this could be interesting... And when she realized I was quite capable of slipping into a meditative trance while standing there, she required me to sing any songs I might know the words to, or recite prime numbers starting with One; anything to make me think.
DeleteOkay Dan, I'll crack a little. My Fet profile states the following:
DeleteI dislike being dirty or having anything put on my skin. I choose to not wear makeup.
What it doesn't say is that I detest feeling sticky, and that I'm a compulsive handwasher.
ANYTHING on my skin is torturous. Even rain, but especially when it's sprinkling. I'm fine with showering, but I think you might understand a little better.
What I did to get punished is irrelevant. What "B" did is he made me put my hands flat on the table, and he spread maybe a teaspoonful of dessert on the back of my hands, and told me to stay. It lasted maybe 5 minutes, but it could have been an hour as far as I'm concerned. It was horrible. I was in tears by the time he allowed me to get up to use the restroom and wash my hands.
This was at a restaurant. Even when it was over, I was inconsolable, and it took a long time for the years to stop.
Writing about this makes me cry, and for the record, I'm a silent cryer.
You're right, I would not have seen that coming as an effective punishment, but he certainly played to what worked for you.
DeleteWhile I wouldn't consider myself compulsive about it, I can relate to your punishment as a punishment. I do not tolerate dripping on me well. I realize not the same degree as your sensitivity. My husband will often lay ice on me, but it isn't the cold that I have to fight, it is the small streams of running water along my body as it melts. Like you I'm okay if I am completely wet. If I were to imagine that loathe some feeling magnified I could see how you would be greatly affected by that punishment.
Delete@Dan and @Anonymous:
DeleteThank you for understanding. It just tweaks with my head.
Where to begin, I think first off that while many of the photos/ drawings of women being spanked do show a lot of emotions, I don't believe they actually show emotions most women express- at least at the start of a spanking, myself included. I have discussed this with many friends and a great majority of us may be contrite in our hearts, but our facial expressions and even our words often don't express that. Anger is a natural reaction to pain, many husbands have to spank past that point before the real emotions can surface behind the force field. Even so, as a friend once put it, " It can take a long time for the heart and brain to catch up to the bum".
ReplyDeleteWe are a D/s Dd M/f couple and have been for 9 years. When I brought this to my husband he said he wasn't surprised as I had always had 'alpha' male friends. Years later when talking to another friend I commented that I did always seem to be attracted to that type of male ( overtly dominant) and she gave me an all knowing smirk and said, " Orrrr is it the other way around? " In a discussion with a VERY overt Dom friend of mine his reaction was to laugh and say, " Like a moth to a flame". Perhaps it is both? I know I do find it much easier to converse and be myself around dominant men, than any woman, and a dominant woman? Forget it. I clam up, put up walls and cannot wait to get away. LOL. My issue, nothing against them of course.
One weekend getaway years ago my husband decided I should spank him. He assured me he had a point to make, not because he was remotely interested in switching. My initial reaction was to sit on the bed and cry. I didn't think I could do it. Soon my upset was channeled into anger, that he could possibly think this was something I could do no problem, and I ordered him into position. I believe the weapon he gave me was a silicone devils braid. I hauled off and whacked him 3 times before he got up swearing and dancing around. His point he was GOING to make was how *I* didn't have to express anger while experiencing pain. LOL. That turned out to be a mute point. After that 'victory' I returned to crying and asked him to please never make me do that again. He assured me it most certainly will never happen again, even if I begged. I suppose we are evenly matched that way even if he forgets at times that I will instantly react in anger ( much like stubbing a toe) most times during a spanking. I snort and stuff, pretty much like the Incredible Hulk. In my defence the man has never heard of a warm up!
And my last thought/ comment, I wonder if beyond just social conditioning concerning why there are more M/f blogs to F/m blogs might also have to do with the way females tend to process things. Often we are seen as the talkers and over thinkers of the two sexes- so perhaps that accounts for some of the reasons why men don't tend to blog ( even in the M/f arrangement)
wR
"Anger is a natural reaction to pain, many husbands have to spank past that point before the real emotions can surface behind the force field. Even so, as a friend once put it, " It can take a long time for the heart and brain to catch up to the bum"." While I'm coming from the F/m orientation, I totally get this.
DeleteMy reaction probably would be similar to yours if Anne wanted me to spank her, at least any kind of real disciplinary spanking. I'm not sure I really could do it.
Dan wrote: (quoting a friend)" It can take a long time for the heart and brain to catch up to the bum" I get this too , particularly about a couple of issues we have encountered. But it's amusing to hear it put this way since I have been told (by a former girlfriend) that there is “a line running directly from my bum to my brain" which meant I think that I learned faster when she was lighting a fire in my bum. I don't know if that is so but I do know that a spanking combined with a simple scolding repeated over and over does get into my brain - so much so that I remember waking up one morning after a spanking with the scolding still reverberating in my brain. It probably was a pretty serious spanking too but it’s the scolding I remember.
DeleteAlan
I understand the scolding bit. I have this 'ability' to disassociate from the pain during a spanking. It is a 'gift' I try hard not to use as it does neither of us any good. There have been times I have felt nothing, and then my husband will say something that shoots straight to my heart the pain is back instantly. More often than not however I need a but of time to process and come down from the assault on my @$$ to truly let my feelings out
Deletew
I think processing is what happens with most spankings and their effect on attitude and behavior is cumulative.Scolding reinforces that and drives the message deeper and faster
DeleteAlan
As a switch who doesn't switch much anymore, I do think it's important for each role to understand the other in a tangible way......even if as brief as a few swats. Navigating the glitches that are bound to occur in this lifestyle become a little easier to understand when each side has a better understanding of what that role feels like.
DeleteYour candid admission of the types of male and female you relate to was refreshingly honest. And it's true. I've seen the disconnect between Tops of each gender and the bottoms in that same gender. I have to see something very specific to be comfortable talking with a hetero Top male. I've had a few good friendships with some dominant males, but usually they and I are more like oil and water. And like I've said, I have seen that same dynamic play out between females, with the dominants being as confused and frustrated with the submissives as the submissives are with the Dommes.
I also agree about the disproportionate ratio of blogs....to a degree. I also think that male subs ARE more vocal than the average guy but are an actual numerical minority as well. So while the inclination to be a "talker" is greater in females, I do believe from my experience that there simply are just more of them.
Good post. Interesting perspective.
It's interesting how distinctively different my reactions are in work and social situations, versus what I'm attracted to erotically. Like you, I'm "oil and water" with most dominant men, though I mean dominant in a non-kink sense. I actually don't know any dominant men in the kink scene in my real life. In the non-kink world, I tend to getting into head butting contests with domineering men very quickly. Though, I tend to get along pretty well with men who are very confident and comfortable in their own skin, so it's really only when it drifts over into "top-ish" or bullying behavior that gets me riled up or gets my competitive juices flowing. At the same time, I really struggle to understand real submissive-acting people in my profession. I've had a couple of younger women on my teams who I suspect may have been true submissives in their personal lives. They were pretty poor performers day-to-day, at least at first. At some point they would really screw something up, and one of us would have to have a little talk with them. The funny thing was, some of them were very capable of doing good work *after* being verbally woodshedded, and they seemed to thrive on being micromanaged. That personality type is really oil and water with me. My ideal dynamic in the business world is a small team of very competent, very self-directed people with as little hierarchy as possible.
DeleteBut, I've also seen the absence of hierarchy create mischief. As I've recounted before, for a while I was on a common project with a peer who was senior to me in years, but I was in charge of the customer relationship at issue, and we had different areas of expertise. When not on that project, we were friends. But, every once in a while we would come to different strategic conclusions, and we were both convinced we were right. It became a very volatile situation, with both of us asserting that we were right and should be the deciding vote, and there was no tie breaker! It was truly maddening. I still consider him one of my best work friends and I think he feels the same about me, but I would never, ever voluntarily work on anything with him unless there was someone else who clearly outranked both of us who could break ties in the event of a dispute.
"I understand the scolding bit. I have this 'ability' to disassociate from the pain during a spanking. It is a 'gift' I try hard not to use as it does neither of us any good." I get this -- I tend to "man up" during really hard spankings, even though it, as you say, does neither of us any good.
DeleteThere's nothing wrong with two competent people with differing views butting heads. In fact, I wish it happened more often. The problem we have in our society is that self-obsessed INcompetents too often occupy positions of authority utterly undeserved.
DeleteTotally true regarding incompetents rising to way too many positions of authority.
DeleteWhile I read everything written on this blog, and do enjoy the in-depth opinions and analysis about who, when, why and how, my simple-minded bottom line is that some people in our world know that being spanked is hugely valuable for their well-being. All the reasoning notwithstanding, those of us wired this way just need a good spanking once in a while. A spanking "given" is a gift given.
ReplyDeleteI agree that is the bottom line, though I am also fascinated with the "why" of it all.
DeleteBeen thinking about this, and wanted to add that "just need a good spanking once in a while" left off a crucial element. That is WHO the spanking is coming from. If it's coming from someone you have an emotional connection with that's by far the best. I had experiences before Aunt Kay including seeing Pros a few times.
DeleteSure a big part is how well one can get their own head into it. But when the Pro is genuinely a caring person it's feels so right. Dana Specht was one of those people. That lady had a way of getting into your space and then taking it over.
I recall leaving Pro sessions a couple of times feeling so unfulfilled that I was depressed for days (and out some good money).
I'm pretty sure my spanking days are in the past. Not that I don't think about it. But I'm not whining - I am pretty grounded in reality. Things change in life and adapting and thriving is the name of the game.
Anyway, this forum is fun for me.
"That lady had a way of getting into your space and then taking it over." I've known some in non-kink roles who were like that. It's a great skill to have.
DeleteOooh, Dana. Never had the pleasure/pain,but she's on my bucket list.
DeleteAnyway,two days ago, she put a notice on Twitter, that she was looking for male subs for videos. The tradeoff was (is), the sub gets a free session, she gets video material.
I showed it to Merry. She frowned and glared at me.
And as the resident "odd man out"? She does nothing for me. Zip. Zero. Nada.
DeleteFunny how we are kind of a simpatico band of ragamuffins.......and yet can still be so different. I love it.
No KD, you're not the odd man out on this one. I've never met her personally, but the photos and the few videos I've seen by her do nothing for me either.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteI am kind of middle of the road on her. She isn't that attractive to me personally, and her videos are kind of cheesy. Plus, she speaks too much to the camera.
DeleteOn the other hand, I do like it that she seems to give pretty hard spankings. Some (though not all) of hers are some of the harder F/M spankings I have found, particularly in the "pure" spanking category, so not some whip-wielding dominatrix in a dungeon.
Tomy,
ReplyDeleteYou are point on,My wife has said to me when I ma resisting being spanked or complaining about one coming : "I wouldn't spank you if I didn't care about you". That just stops me cold.A woman that spanks because she cares is a woman to be obeyed
Alan
Danielle here:
ReplyDeleteI have no experience of an M/f DD dynamic and no desire for it. But I can understand the erotic appeal of M/f play spankings. It would feel demeaning to me to submit to real corporal punishment, but I get that some women are turned on by that, the same way my husband is. I think that because dominance is stereotypically masculine and submissiveness is stereotypically feminine, acting out those stereotypes through M/f spanking can be sexually exciting.
Something I have come to appreciate about F/m DD is the way it can equalize the power of the sexes. My husband is bigger than me, stronger than me, and he has made more money than me. In that sense, our marriage has a traditional patriarchal power imbalance. But the reversal of that power imbalance in FLR is satisfying to me. If we had M/f DD on top of everything else, I would probably feel truly inferior to my husband, and I wouldn't like that.
Dan, you commented on the unattractive dependency of some women who are in M/f DD relationships. I would point out that such dependency is limited neither to women nor to submissive partners. I used to go out for lunch sometimes with a group of women friends. One of the women had a husband who would constantly text her, wanting to know how much longer she would be. I know her husband. I don't know whether they had any kind of D/s thing going on, but her husband seemed to be the kind of guy who would want to appear to be the one who wears the pants. He seemed brash and cocky. This friend would apologize to the rest of us for her husband's texting, but she never just turned off her phone. A couple of times I had to bite my tongue when I felt like saying that if my husband displayed such unattractive clinginess when I was out with friends, I would give him a good paddling when I got home.
Hi Danielle. You're right to point out that dependency is not a good look for either sex. My relationship is somewhat like yours, in that DD for us was a means of reversing the existing power balance. I do think DD has been an equalizing force for us.
DeleteThe example about the clingy husband arouses the amateur detective in me. Was he truly submissive? I don't think so. I wonder if what you perceived to be needy was in fact possessive jealousy? Had he been merely a needy submissive, one dismissive reprimand to back off would have sufficed. But to have seemingly covered for these intrusions bespeaks of a woman who was walking a tightrope. I would bet that he was the more dominant force in that relationship.
DeleteHi Danielle,
DeleteI agree that dependency is not necessarily limited to females or those who are submissive. But it is not very desirable in any case. One other possibility for the husband that you mentioned - though perhaps less likely than possessive jealousy or clinginess - is that maybe he didn't get enough time with her. I have recounted before how when things were very, very busy for my wife and I and when we always had kids around, I felt bad when she went out much with her friends if we could have been alone. It is not that I didn't want her to have time with her friends, but I didn't want it to be during that rare, precious time that we actually could be alone as a couple. Of course, she DID end up using the paddle on me several times for my bad attitude about that, and it did change my thinking about it when I realized I was sucking the joy out of her spending time with her friends.
I was happy to see that you commented this week, because I was just getting ready to comment on the previous thread that drifted to witnesses, and then I saw that there was a new subject (I had just been refreshing that tab). Anyway, I have been still totally stuck on the witness thing since we talked about it back in August, and I mostly blame you for it! I had never really thought much about witnesses, even though now I notice just how prevalent it is in spanking pictures and just how compelling the thought is. But when we were talking about it, it really struck a chord.
When you posted in pretty great detail about you discipling your husband with your wife present, it just formed a mental image that is burned into my brain and won't go away. To any who didn't read Danielle's post (since it was posted after a new subject was in play), I recommend you go back and find it because it was excellent.
One thing my wife and I have thought about, since the witness thing seems like a bridge too far, is that what if I were in our bedroom, tied up or perhaps nose in the corner, awaiting punishment while she has a friend over for coffee. The friend would have no idea unless my wife told her, but it would certainly be interesting for my wife and I...
-ZM
ZM, you're certainly right about witnesses being prevalent in spanking photos and art. When I look at my collection of spanking art, those with witnesses or multiple spankers probably outnumber any other subject matter tag I've created. Whenever I do a topic involving witnesses, the biggest challenge is not finding appropriate art but, rather, choosing among the dozens and dozens of options.
DeleteIt's odd that witness show up so much in the art because I think in real life a witness is not common. Maybe I am mistaken about that. But in many years’ experience with F/M relationships, there have been only two witness -although that has not been for lack of interest especially on the part of my disciplinarian. The fantasy was there for me very early too but it might have remained just a fantasy but for the enthusiasm of the women (including my wife) who incorporated it into discipline. I think it is a common fantasy for both men and women with only fear of an indiscreet witness being its chief inhibitor. We talked earlier in this thread I think about spanking being an equalizer. I agree that it is and that to me is one of its principal benefits – but if spanking is an equalizer, spanking in front of a witness is the “great equalizer’
DeleteAlan
Danielle here:
DeleteKD, I agree with you. I think I didn't explain myself clearly. Dan said he has noticed that some women in male dominant DD relationships exhibit "unhealthy dependency". My point was that men can be just as emotionally dependent and not just submissive men. I don't think the husband in question was submissive. I don't know whether he was "dominant" in the sense of a formal DD, but he was certainly domineering. (Does that distinction make sense?). The wife one time made a comment to the effect that men don't know what to do with themselves when their women are away, that they are so easily bored. (She made the mistake of thinking that her husband was representative of all men). What I got from that was that her husband was both domineering and dependent on his wife. You may well be right that he felt possessive jealousy. But isn't possessive jealousy a kind of dependency? It's like the husband had a childish need to be the center of his wife's attention, even when she was with her girlfriends. By contrast my submissive husband has always been supportive of my independence. It is true, as you say, that such behavior in a submissive husband (like mine) could be curbed with one stern rebuke. I was sometimes tempted to brag to my friends that if my husband did behave like that, I could put a stop to it with my hairbrush. I didn't do that, however, because I thought they might see Wayne as unmanly, and I felt protective of his public image. Besides, I think Wayne is manlier in his submission to me than that woman's husband was in his domineering possessiveness.
ZM, I suppose it is possible to have a more charitable interpretation of that husband's behavior. Still, it bothered me. I may be prejudiced in your wife’s favor, but if she has paddled you for your attitude about time spent her friends, I am inclined to believe you deserved it. I am sorry my account of spanking Wayne in front of my friend Barb has got stuck in your head. In my mind the purpose of involving a witness wasn't mainly disciplinary. I was knowingly acting on a powerful sexual fantasy for my husband, and I made sure that Barb understood that. If you and your wife think involving a witness is going too far, you should probably trust your intuition. Ethically, I believe the witness has to understand exactly what they are getting into so as to consent to it. The idea of your wife having coffee with a friend while you are waiting for discipline out of sight seems like a creative way to fulfill some aspect of your fantasy without imposing your kink on her friend. Something I have always done to play with Wayne’s fantasy of people seeing him spanked is to include in my scolding rhetorical questions about what people would think if they COULD see how I have to spank him.
Alan, I think witnesses are more common in spanking art than in real life because being spanked in front of witnesses is a potent erotic fantasy that can’t easily be acted on for practical reasons. I sometimes threaten to spank Wayne in busy public places, even though I know I couldn’t really do it, because it pushes his buttons.
Hi Danielle,
DeleteThanks for your response. Yes, you are right that the times my wife paddled me for my attitude when she went out, I did deserve it. It is not so much that I didn't have reason to feel that way, but my attitude was in no way constructive, so regardless of whether I was right or wrong on the issue, I was only making things worse.
And I was just kidding about it being your fault that the witness thing is stuck in my head. You just did a perfect job of describing exactly how I envisioned it would be, so it somehow made the whole thing come to life.
I am not sure that we believe that having a witness goes to far, but rather it is too big of a step to take right now at least. And you are completely right that any witness needs to understand what she is going to witness and to consent to it. It is unfair for us to expose others to our kink without their clear consent.
I like your idea of including questions about others in scolding. In fact, it was probably more something that my wife said that REALLY caused me to latch onto the whole witness thing. In response to that week's blog topic, my wife said "just imagine how embarrassing it would be if ______ saw you being punished..." (with the person in the blank being my closest female friend for many years - now a mutual friend of ours.
One thing I have thought about recently, since I seem to spend my life on Zoom and other video conferences and my crazy mind never stops thinking about things like this, is whether anyone has used that as a way to have a spanking witnessed? Maybe that would be an easier bridge for someone to cross and be a little less threatening. Wouldn't it be interesting if that was one of the many changes to come from COVID? :-)
Anyway, thanks for responding. I always value your input.
-ZM
And Alan, I always love your comments as well. I agree that it probably happens a lot more in photos than in real life, but probably since so many photos are just fantasy fulfillment by uninterested models, so why not throw in a witness or two as well? And surely you are correct that the primary inhibitor of witnesses is fear of an indiscreet witness. I guess I should have taken more advantage of being spanked when I was younger, since there was no stigma surrounding that, and in fact it was just as likely to be witnessed as not. I so wish that it could be like that for adults. That would be a whole different level of "real" if it was just a matter of fact, "he misbehaved, so is being punished." I now understand what you wrote several months about how having a witness in a way validates the reality of the whole situation.
Delete"..but if spanking is an equalizer, spanking in front of a witness is the 'great equalizer’ - I can only imagine, at least for now!
-ZM
Danielle:
Delete“I sometimes threaten to spank Wayne in busy public places, even though I know I couldn’t really do it, because it pushes his buttons”
It might do more than just push those buttons. My wife will do it especially on shopping trips and auto travel and it has an almost immediate impact on me –even though the possibility of it happening is almost nil. I think it’s effect on me is more in reminding me she does spank, does have the authority to spank and whatever behavior she is reacting to something I really don’t want to do. The “warning” of this kind I remember best came from a former girlfriend who threatened over the phone while I was in my office to come there and spank me if …. She did this a few different times and I still remember being both embarrassed and chastened. She was just unpredictable enough I did not want to push her at all.
ZM:
“…Having a witness in a way validates the reality of the whole situation”
.Logically a single consensual witness should not do this. Being spanked in your own living room is not like taking out a classified ad or for that matter posting a video on spanking tube. But it is validating nonetheless, acknowledging in front of a third party your wife’s authority and your needs - as well as the embarrassment inevitably felt. I confess more than a little curiosity about the kind of experiences Tomy describes, being spanked among a group of other males also being spanked –and the experience he has discussed being sent to another disciplinary wife or hosting another husband sent to Aunt Kay for discipline. I am not sure I would be comfortable in a similar situation, but it is a fascinating scenario to imagine. And as I think Tomy has described “liberating”
Alan
ZM: I too have thought about the possibilities Zoom presents for having a spanking witnessed, or being a witness to one. It is pretty titillating to think about.
DeleteAlan: I have the same reaction as you to some of Tomy's adventures. Two of the scenarios you mention -- being sent to another wife (or husband) to be spanked, or hosting a husband who has been sent to my wife for a spanking -- are very intriguing.
The idea of using computer technology to have a spanking witnessed remotely is intriguing. I have only spanked Wayne in front of Barb that one time, but I have agreed with Barb that we will do it again once the pandemic is over. The idea of inviting her to witness a spanking online is interesting. However, I am not very tech savvy, so I wonder how risky that is. Isn’t there a risk that there could be a permanent online record of anything projected over the internet? Also, if you invited somebody to witness a spanking remotely, you wouldn’t know for sure whether anyone else was watching it, would you? For example, if I were to have Barb witness a spanking on Zoom, it would be possible for her to invite her husband to watch too, without our knowledge, wouldn’t it? I’m not saying that I think Barb would do that, but it’s theoretically possible, right?
DeleteDanielle
You'd be surprised how soon the 'witness novelty' wears off. LOL It's still a great scenario and adds a special element that is unique. And I certainly think everyone who is intrigued by it should just make it happen...if only once....to experience it. But once you've done it a few times, it just becomes part of whatever group dynamic you find yourself in.
DeleteAnd the 'before & after' are definitely more powerful than the moment, at least for me, because in the moment your mind is pretty preoccupied with the pain of the spanking itself. I think it's like what you hear about childbirth. Initially a woman might feel a little embarrassed by the parade of people focused on her groin, but once labor gets unbearable, she doesn't care WHO is there if they could just make the pain stop. ;-)
Danielle, I'm not Zoom expert, despite being on dozens and dozens of Zoom calls. But, based on a quick internet search, it looks like if you are the host, you can prevent recording by participants. I was a little surprised that in FaceTime, apparently any session can be recorded by any participant, but apparently only the video -- no audio. Anyway, maybe someone with better video-conferencing skills than I have can weigh in on this?
DeleteDanielle:
DeleteZoom can be hacked although as Dan mentions there are defenses available to the host. But the probability of it happening to you is probably not high and if you trust Barb enough to allow her to witness Wayne’s discipline, she can probably be trusted to keep it within whatever four walls you determine. But a speaker phone is also an option that can be fun without much risk, although again you can’t’ control who else is listening. I have been on both ends of a speaker phone spanking and Wayne will probably not enjoy it that much but your friend will find it interesting. When we can only hear but not see our imaginations go into overdrive
Kd:
I agree about the” novelty” wearing off as far as fulfilling a fantasy. But it still works as a tool for my wife. I still feel embarrassment and it is never “just another” spanking. During the pandemic she has been talking about involving a close friend (who has known for a while but nothing more) Part of me gets a little tingle from that but a bigger part (my brain) tells me to just keep it at the talking stage. The reality is very different from the fantasy. I am glad for the experience and my wife may decide I need more of that experience but as you say the novelty wears off.
Alan
Due to our lifestyle, I have been spanked in front of others many times. This occurred both at parties, where it was pretty much a whole other world, and with other couples. There were circumstances at parties where men, and other couples were witnessing.
ReplyDeleteBottom line for me,(yeah I know "bottom" line), was that it was incredibly liberating to be with others who knew, saw, and understood.
See my comment to Alan, above. Here's to liberating experiences.
Delete