Sunday, October 25, 2020

The Club - Meeting 358 - Buy-In and Who Decides the Rules?

A person who is knowingly bent on bad behavior, gets upset when better behavior is expected of them. - Jane Austen

 

 

Hello all.  Welcome back to the Disciplinary Couples Club.  Our weekly gathering of men and women who are in, or interested in being in, Domestic Discipline Relationships.  I hope you had a good week.

 

Mine was pretty uneventful, and surprisingly productive on a few fronts.  For once, I didn’t have any real behavioral problems. I completed some home projects I’ve been sitting on for a while and managed to get some outdoor Halloween decorations up.  I'm still loving this time of year!

 

 

Or, I was enjoying the season until the weather turned nasty. As often happens here, we seem to have gone abruptly and unceremoniously from fall to winter.  Not that there is anything wrong with winter.

 

 

Though, I’m not done thoroughly enjoying Halloween.

 

 

I also made a surprising amount of headway on the health and fitness front.  I've been trying hard to get rid of those persistent love handles. I also may have had an epiphany about why both my energy levels and, frankly, my libido have been down all year. I've been implementing some pretty significant dietary changes, and so far so good. I also have been getting back into the gym regularly for the first time since Covid hit, respecting social distancing, hand washing and mask guidelines.

 


While we didn't get a huge number of posts last week, I thought it was a very illuminating conversation.  There were several good contributions regarding how to humble a man with ego issues, such as myself. Though, did you notice how many of those contributions focused on the humbling power of witnesses?  It is interesting, to me at least, just how much we care about how others see us. 

Danielle’s contribution regarding “maternal” discipline and control definitely pushed some buttons for me. When I first discovered Domestic Discipline, it had this intoxicating mix of attraction and terror.  The level of control Danielle suggested gives me those same mixed feelings. Part of me is genuinely attracted to trying exactly what she suggests. 

 


However, it is really one of those “be careful what you ask for – you might get it” things, isn’t it.  That tension inherently raises the line between DD and FLR and what side of that line I want to be on. On the one hand, I really do find the level of maternal control she suggested very compelling and perversely attractive.  On the other hand, several months ago when she cracked down on some areas, I got resentful in a way that undermined some of her forward progress.  Yet, last week she was bossing me around pretty strongly on things like chores, and while I may have resented it in the moment, overall I got off on it. So, do I want to give up control to her or don’t I?

 

It’s a complicated question, and I think there are two interrelated factors that feed into how I react to her taking more control. The first revolves around the extent to which we are in alignment on whether certain behavior is a problem.  I think Alan summed it up really well a couple of weeks ago:

 

[W]e developed a list of behaviors that were problems for one or both of us. Very important at that point was that we both agreed that the behavior needed to change. In short, we both needed to buy into it as a goal whether it was relatively trivial or later when the behaviors were serious issues. That buy in by both of us was crucial.

 

Alan also advised starting with relatively minor issues.

 

Next, following Aunt Kay, we prioritized the list to 2 or 3 things to emphasize, picking middle range things rather than the most challenging behaviors, eventually working up to the most serious issues. We actually started with a cliché, leaving the commode seat up and one other. But even these “easy” ones established the habit of compliance and the reality of consequences.

 

To Alan’s last sentence I would add that focusing on “easy” things probably also helps her get habituated to exercising authority, precisely because it is authority that is likely to be obeyed. As she sees me comply with orders over and over again, she gets more comfortable giving them and I get more comfortable taking them.  Which is the goal, right?  So, I like Alan’s advice, and it illustrates the second factor that determines how I react to Anne taking control: If the behavior is something minor and easily fixed or adopted, while I may not like her order in the moment I am unlikely to balk at it and may even find it sexy after I have some time to let it sink in. But, if it is something bigger, like a hard-wired habit or something that I see as a core part of who I am, an exercise of control is more likely to be met with real resentment. 

 

Those two factors—the degree of mutual agreement and the seriousness of the behavior—are interrelated.  When she called out of the blue a week ago and gave me instructions on things she expected me to do around the house that day, it was minor stuff in the scheme of things even though one of the tasks (sweeping and cleaning our wood floors) took me almost an hour.  Even if I didn’t expressly agree in advance to her assigning chores like that, it didn’t spark resentment. Also, to the extent she was giving me orders for the express purpose of humbling me, there was a level of mutual agreement to that goal.

 

Conversely, I described the incident several months ago when she wanted me to come to bed when I was watching a movie and having a beer while doing so. That incident caused resentment, and my resentment undermined her authority for a while.  The reason I resented it was, while we both agree on the overall goal of keeping my tendence to binge under control, I felt like my behavior was within normal bounds. It was a Friday night. I was worn out from the stress of work and just wanted to veg out with a movie and a nightcap.  In other words, it was normal adult behavior, and I wasn’t hurt her, myself or anyone else. Looking back, the whole thing was a counter-example of Alan’s wise advice: (a) the behavior was not really minor and she was exercising some substantial control over my autonomy; and (b) there wasn’t real buy in that anything I was doing was a problem.

 

 

Whether your relationship is Domestic Discipline only or incorporates some degree of FLR, who makes the rules?  Guys, do you suggest to your wife the areas you want to improve in?  Ladies, to what degree do you decide which problems you want to address and how much authority do you have, or would you like to have, in determining conduct you want to address or habits you want to help him break or establish?  To what extent is mutual buy-in important?  And, what about the importance or impact of the behavior at issue?  In establishing your disciplinary habits, did you jump right to major issues or, as Alan advises, did you start with “easy” issues and work your way up from there? 

 

I hope you have a great week.  Be safe out there this week. 

64 comments:

  1. During a time that Merry and I were practicing FLR with DD, there was this one time that she gave me an order that p*ssed me off so badly, that I went to my car, drove a mile away, parked, and sat and thought for an hour, deciding whether to return home, or continue driving until I ran out of gas.

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    1. I haven't had an order piss me off quite THAT badly, but I'm glad to know I'm not the only one who has some compliance challenges.

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    2. Now that few people will be looking here:
      Over six years ago, we went to a supermarket, and I yelled at her in a way that she said embarrassed her. We returned home. Three of her grown boys were there, in our driveway, working on a car. She ordered me to strip and stand in the corner by the front door, until she cooled off. Instead I fled, twisting my ankle in my haste. After an hour of sitting in my car, I reminded myself, I asked for this. I returned home. I stripped and stood in the corner, while obeying her requests to sing or recite prime numbers, anything to keep me from slipping into meditation, which I am wont to do. After an hour, I was sweating. Warm in the house, no a/c. She sent me to the shower, then to wait, naked, in the bedroom, while she made up her mind. Once she did, she came in and beat my ass for quite some time,with me in FDAU and in diaper position.
      Our FLR arrangement ended soon after that. I enjoy being spanked, but my ego couldn't handle her dominance. She continued spanking me after that until Dec 2019, always consensual, and often using role-play scenarios that I came up with.

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  2. At the beginning we (together) developed a list of rules and behavior for me to adhere to. Right from the start, all were enforced with bare ass spankings, no ease in period. While learning her ways and adjusting my behavior, I was spanked often, more than daily for nearly a month before things began to improve and punishments tapered off. We both made and agreed to the rules and that bare bottom spanking be the only method of punishment. Now years later, we had to institute a maintenance program and my chore performance and behavior vastly improved. Do I occasionally slip up???? yes and I still am subject to and receive a good bare bottom disciplinary spanking.
    I must add, after almost 12 years, we are both still very pleased with the FLR and DD household we have.

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    1. "I was spanked often, more than daily for nearly a month before things began to improve and punishments tapered off." We have never approached anything like this, but I see how it could really enforce the roles

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  3. Dan,
    You wrote: “how many of those contributions focused on the humbling power of witnesses? It is interesting, to me at least, just how much we care about how others see us”.
    IMHO (I better be humble), it is not just how others see us, but also how we see ourselves. Having a third party (first my former girlfriend’s best friend and later my wife’s sister) experience a spanking was like a quiet announcement to the world that I was under female authority and subject to discipline and that I accepted it. That moved DD from private where I could rationalize it was a form of kinky play to quasi-public where its reality was unavoidable and undeniable. So it altered my own self-perception from someone who could mark it all up to serious kinky play to a spanked boyfriend and later husband who was very much under female control. All of this was very healthy and brought me much closer to the core of who I am. Ironically in view of the great fear many of us have of someone “finding out”, it all made me care a lot less about that. Others knowing is just not that big a deal to them, so why should it be to us?
    Alan

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    1. Alan, this all makes total sense to me and, in fact, kind of sums up while humbling is a goal for me. Pride gets in our way and makes us less "close to the core of who we are," as you put it. Being subjected to something embarrassing and jumbling kind of attacks the pride at its core.

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    2. Hi Alan,
      Thoughtful comment as always...! I have thought extensively about witnesses, or at least people knowing, but I have only thought about the attendant humiliation (or humbling if you prefer). I had never thought about how it also validates the reality of it, moving it clearly out of the realm of just kinky play. Excellent insight!

      -ZM

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  4. We started with very easy, no-emotional-loading issues like me remembering to set up the coffeepot (I still forget about once a month). Mrs Lion used my frequent lapses to develop her spanking intensity. We are now wrestling with getting to the more significant issues.

    In the beginning, I would have had a hard time accepting her authority over my behavior. Now, it is something I want. It's a combination of the old excitement at being disciplined plus a new feeling of comfort when she exercises her authority.

    She resists the term "maternal" authority. We've discussed it a lot. She also has a lot of trouble disciplining me for doing things that annoy or upset her. It's like she can easily punish me for an external rule, but not for upsetting behavior.

    In my mind the real maternal authority comes with correcting my behavior. So far we haven't been very successful getting there. I like the idea of making a list of things that upset her and then selecting two or three to work on.

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    1. "In the beginning, I would have had a hard time accepting her authority over my behavior. Now, it is something I want. It's a combination of the old excitement at being disciplined plus a new feeling of comfort when she exercises her authority." This resonates with me. I'm not there yet, but I find the outcome attractive.

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  5. When my wife and me started our DD and female led relationship we sat down and made up rules I had to follow. Rules like no swearing, picking up after myself, getting my chores done on time and to her standards, no yelling or back talk, no arguing, no spending without her approval and a stipulation that she can add to these rules at anytime without notice. We also set up chores I will be responsible for.

    In the beginning I was spanked a lot. Sometimes several times a day but over time it became less because I changed my behavior for the better. We've been doing this for about 15 years now and it has worked out well.

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    1. I think only once (maybe twice) in over 15 years have I gotten more than one spanking in a single day, and it was really splitting one spanking into two sessions.

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    2. I don’t ever remember being spanked more than one time in any day. Even twice in one week has been rare and most of them were in our early days. Like others, I am not counting spankings where corner time was used in the middle. But they were really just a long single spanking with some reflection time in the middle.
      Alan

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  6. With us it was always a collaborative effort with a certain.......though not uncontestable....advantage in Rosa's favor.

    As I've mentioned to you more privately, we aren't as rule-oriented as we used to be......for lots of reasons, but chief among them has to be that we actually like the dynamic of spanking and yet have little real cause to use it.

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    1. It seems like that would be a natural arc for all sorts of human and business relationships -- at first really real-focused but then more fluid and trust-oriented. Yet, it doesn't really seem to work that way outside DD. Rule-bound organizations stay rule-bound.

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    2. Hi KD,
      "...we actually like the dynamic of spanking and yet have little real cause to use it."

      We are similar, but not quite the same. My wife and I do some roleplay, and my wife does like to spank just for the fun of it. I, on the other hand, mostly focus just on the DD angle. It is not that I can't enjoy playing, but if instead it happens to be punishment for some real issue, then it just becomes 10X more impactful.

      But where we are the same is the "have little real cause to use it." I often wonder just how much more she might actually spank me if we ever had any real conflict or if I did more things that irritate her. As it is, we are just awfully happy with each other, which almost inhibits any desire for her to want to really punish me. I don't know if any of that made any sense, but it does in my twisted mind!

      -ZM

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  7. Speaking as someone who does not have mutual buy-in mainly because the other side just can't communicate beyond "come on then" I suspect if you can achieve it and its a genuine two-way process it must be incredible. However my analysis is clouded by not being submissive; I like to be spanked but not told what to think! Cheers Good Life Mickey.

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    1. Funny how inability/unwillingness to communicate is not as much of an exclusively male attribute as some women want to believe.

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  8. My first "OMG" paddling came when we were in the process of moving in together. Let's just say I had a casual aspect about doing something illegal associated with the move and she was adamantly against it. It was a real "heated" argument and she simply took action. After that I always knew there was a point beyond which she wouldn't put up with stuff. Regarding resentments, yes I had a few times where I was resentful or felt it was unfair. But overall I trusted her so deeply and so completely that I ALWAYS ultimately was grateful in the end.

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    1. I recall you relating the details of that incident. What a great way to kick off a very real DD relationship!

      Hope you're doing well.

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  9. One caution about making a list of rules: many women starting out are uncertain how and when to exert their authority. So it’s good to avoid putting them into a straitjacket as to what is punishable, when how etc. Too much emphasis on rules as a framework for your disciplinary relationship can be inhibiting. We worked around that by emphasizing from very early that rules were guidelines and she was the final authority on whether discipline needed to be applied. The way she finally put it was that I could not “challenge” her authority. That is something (challenging her authority) that even today can get me into trouble fast So any rules are guidelines and she gets to decide if I have been disobedient and what to do about it.

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    1. I agree with the comment about rules being a "straightjacket" for the wife. I rejected my husband's desire to agree on a list of "spanking offences" for exactly that reason. I especially didn't want to make agreements of the format "If husband does x, wife should do y", where y is some form of spanking. If I am supposed to be a "disciplinarian", I am going to spank when and how I see fit, and I am going to use other forms of discipline when I see fit.
      Danielle

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    2. Danielle, I agree with you in principle, though I suspect for some women rules and agreed-upon consequences may be straightjackets, but for others they may be security blankets. When we first started, we had a list of offenses and a presumptive minimum number of swats. I think she liked it at that stage and saw it as reassuring, because she didn't have to try to figure out whether a spanking was "unfair," "excessive," etc., as we had already agreed to the crime and the punishment. I still recall vividly the first time my tally of offenses added up to what was, at that time, a fairly eye-popping number of swats. I said wasn't sure I could take that many, and without hesitation she said, "Well, then I guess you should have behaved better."

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    3. Sorry, I did not sign the “straightjacket post. Obviously I am going to validate Danielle’s experience here, but I see your point as well. It worked for us but not for everyone. It’s a good reminder that in establishing a DD relationship, one size does not fit all. We are diverse
      Alan

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    4. Danielle here:

      Alan, I agree with you that there is no one size fits all formula for FLR or DD.
      Dan, I see your point that agreement about the number of spanks warranted for a given offense could be a security blanket for women worried about being unfair or excessive. But trying to quantify the severity of punishments would be complicated, I think, because some implements hurt much more than others and the spanker can use more or less force. I think one reason spanking has fallen out of favor as a form of parental discipline is exactly that: the impossibly of clearly defining the point where "loving judicious discipline" tips over into abuse. I have always just spanked Wayne in a manner that satisfies my own sense of justice, and I know that I have probably erred on the side of leniency for the tastes of you and other guys here. Wayne has given me feedback in his submission journal about spankings, so I learned from him how much different implements hurt. He has sometimes suggested that I could spank more harshly, but we never discussed it in detail because I told him at the beginning of FLR that if he wanted me to spank him, he better not criticize the way I do it.

      I always prided myself on managing Wayne's kinks and disciplinary needs well because I was able to regulate his behaviors and attitudes to my satisfaction. But a couple of months ago Wayne confessed something that shattered that perception. About a year ago when I was away on family business for an extended period, Wayne went to a "professional disciplinarian" for a spanking session! When he told me that I felt angry, disappointed, and humiliated. He assured me that there was no sex, just spanking. I believe him because he showed me an email from the woman informing him of her rules. But I still feel that he cheated on me because I know that spanking is thoroughly sexual for him, and I consider it to be a form of marital intimacy. In fact, he confessed that during the drive home from that session, while stuck in a traffic jam, he had a spontaneous orgasm, coming in his pants without touching himself, from replaying the scene in his head and feeling the throb in his bum. I didn't even know that was possible. So if that isn't sex, I don't know what is. Wayne's excuse: he wanted to experience a "real spanking" just once, meaning a severe, sustained spanking that would make him cry, like in the stories he has read. I guess the professional knew her business because she got him to that point over the period of an hour. But I felt insulted that he considered the role played "discipline" she gave him to be more "real" than my real discipline.

      As a result, I suspended our FLR, and I banished Wayne to the guest bedroom for a couple of months. I also stopped writing about FLR here because, as I told you in a private message, Dan, my husband's infidelity made me feel like a phony. People here have said how wonderfully I know how to manage FLR, but I felt my husband's infidelity meant I had failed. I felt like FLR had failed. At a certain point, I started to miss the perks of FLR and wanted to restart it, but I felt that disengaging from Wayne's masochistic kinks, and keeping him in suspense whether I would ever spank him again, was the most satisfying way to punish him for real. I intended to drag the suspense out longer, but a couple of days ago one of his old habits annoyed me, and I gave in to a spontaneous impulse to spank him. Afterwards, he asked sheepishly whether that meant that FLR was back on. I told him it was, but we are going to have to have a deeper discussion about what it means.

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    5. Danielle,
      Thanks for that and for your deeply candid descriptions of the full contours of your relationship.I think I have more to say about this latest chapter but need some time to think about it. We have been at this for a while but I have learned much from your posts.
      Alan

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    6. Danielle, perfection should never be the measure of success in just about anything. It just isn't a realistic standard to hold yourself to. Also, from what you have described, Wayne seems to have one of the stronger fetishes among the husbands here, so you seem to have managed his kinks pretty well given how much you have to manage. Also, I can say from experience that the desire to be spanked to the point of really crying can be a really powerful part of the DD urge. Though, honestly, I am a little surprised that a pro was able to take him there. I've always thought I would be *less* likely to get to real tears with someone I didn't have a real relationship with.

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    7. Danielle, I always find your perspective interesting. I don’t blame you for feeling the way you did after your husband saw a pro without even discussing it with you first. I’ve thought many times in my life about seeing a pro. The idea is definitely attractive to me. The professional nature of it is a plus, but would still be a sexual relationship because, ultimately, disciplinary spanking is sexual even if I receive no pleasure from being spanked. For me it would without question feel like I was cheating on my wife, which is why I’ve never been tempted enough to do it.

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    8. Danielle,
      I am sorry to hear about Wayne's infidelity. I also would consider it cheating if Jimmy went to a professional disciplinarian without my knowledge and approval (which I would not give). The fact that it produced an orgasm is proof to me that it is a form of cheating, even if he did nothing overtly sexual with the pro.
      I am going to have Jimmy read your post and make it very clear that he better never do anything like that. Based on what he has said to me so far, he definitely doesn't want to be spanked any harder!

      Here are my answers to Dan's questions this week.
      Whether your relationship is Domestic Discipline only or incorporates some degree of FLR, who makes the rules?
      I make the rules, definitely. We started spanking to deal with his issues of disrespect of me and other women. But I have added other issues since. I don't think of what we have as FLR, but in a way maybe it is. I decide when and how he is to be punished, and I control our sex life. So maybe that is a little more than DD?

      Ladies, to what degree do you decide which problems you want to address and how much authority do you have, or would you like to have, in determining conduct you want to address or habits you want to help him break or establish?
      I have taken over full authority regarding the behavior I want him to break or establish, like not leaving his underwear on the floor of the bathroom. I did not expect in the beginning that I would add issues, but that is how it has turned out. And he has not complained much about it. A little, but once he is over the arm of the couch and I am talking, he gets pretty quiet!

      To what extent is mutual buy-in important?
      I think it is very important. We have it, so I don't know what issues it would present if we didn't.

      And, what about the importance or impact of the behavior at issue? In establishing your disciplinary habits, did you jump right to major issues or, as Alan advises, did you start with “easy” issues and work your way up from there?
      We started with the biggest issue -- respect. I understand what Alan is saying, but I think for some couples it takes a big issue to get the DD off the ground. Liz mentioned that, and it happened with us as well.

      What happened with us is that once I realized how much authority I had, I started adding the "easier" issues. Now he gets spanked for leaving his clothes on the floor, for swearing, for not cleaning the bathroom when it is his turn, for coming home late without telling me, for hounding me for sex, and just about any other reason that I want to spank him! He asked me to do this, which means he gave me the power. There is no turning back now!
      Belle

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    9. Hi Belle. It sounds like everything is going great, other than he has a chronically sore bottom.

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    10. I have mentioned this before, but it is worth saying again: What DD has done for me is to give me a sense of physical power over my husband. He is a foot taller and a hundred pounds heavier than me, and I always thought that he might just overpower me any time he felt like it and I had nothing to say about it. Now I know I do. He could still overpower me physically, but I know he won't when I have the bath brush in my hand. He has proven that to me by accepting my spankings. You men on here probably can't understand how important it is to a woman to know that her husband will not use his physical strength against her.
      Belle

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    11. Belle:
      You wrote: “You men on here probably can't understand how important it is to a woman to know that her husband will not use his physical strength against her.” You are probably right about that and maybe men need to be more sensitive to that. Personally I think that any form of physical (or mental abuse) is cowardly especially when committed by a larger presumably stronger person upon another person – and I expect most if not all of the males who post on here feel the same way. But feeling that way probably makes us insensitive to the women in our lives who can be apprehensive about male size or strength. It’s good to be reminded and you are correct also that DD resolves that problem conclusively. When my wife is holding that bathbrush, paddle or strap (or sending me to bring it), the last thing I am capable of us is physical resistance. That’s just baked into the cake. My former girlfriend who introduced me to spanking often remarked that discipline “leveled the playing field”. I thought I understood what she meant but your point makes it a lot clearer.
      Alan

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    12. Danielle here:

      Dan, as to how she got him to cry, I have asked Wayne lots of questions about that experience in an effort to understand why he did it and what he got out of it. Before the actual session, she interviewed him to get a sense of his needs and desires. Then they agreed on a role play scenario to make the spankings feel like real discipline. They pretended she was Wayne's new boss who had to put him in his place because he was jealous that she was promoted over him, so he had been trying to undermine her authority. During the session, she gave him a series of over the knee spankings, starting with her hand, then using a series of increasingly painful implements. He says the pain got so bad several times that he thought he couldn't take anymore. She told him there would be no safe word. He could stop the session if he wanted, but that would be the end of it. He says she seemed to know when to stop to let him catch his breath each time he thought he couldn't go on. He felt vulnerable and embarrassed because she was in business attire, in keeping with the role play, and she made him take off his pants, then she pulled down his underpants while scolding him. Apparently, she was very skilled at role playing, so it felt real. She also shifted seamlessly in and out of role. He says that created a good cop/bad cop effect. One moment she was the cruel, angry boss, and the next moment she was like a kind, concerned therapist, advising him to drink some water to keep hydrated, checking on his feelings, and telling him how well he was doing "for a novice." For the final spanking, she told him she was going to use her favorite brush, a heavy one that would "really hurt". He says that frightened him because he felt she had already taken him to his limit. When he went over her knee the final time, he tensed, bracing himself. In her "good cop" voice, she told him he needed to relax and let himself go because bracing himself wouldn't make it hurt any less. He says that in relaxing physically over her knee, he was also able to let go emotionally, so as to cry from the pain of the final volley.

      I'm still not sure how to feel about all this. What she gave him was a highly skilled BDSM scene, based on his discipline fantasies and her 25 years of experience as a professional spanker. How can a wife compete with that? And even if she could, would that make her the boss, or would it make her into an unpaid dominatrix? That's why I thought the best way to punish Wayne for his infidelity was not to punish or dominate him at all for a couple of months. I have to admit one thing: it was hubris on my part to think that think that I didn't need to learn how to do something as seemingly simple as smacking a man's butt. I probably shouldn't have made the rule that Wayne was not allowed to criticize my spanking skills at the outset of our FLR. That may have inhibited him from talking to me before going to a professional for "a real spanking".

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    13. Danielle here again:

      I would like to thank everyone for the kind words and feedback. However, Alan’s praise for giving “the full contours of my relationship” makes me feel a bit guilty about omitting an important piece of context.

      I think I have mentioned in the past that my husband’s kinks include cuckold fantasies. Well, I must confess that for about a decade we acted on those fantasies in real life. In other words, I had a couple of long term affairs with other men, with Wayne’s blessing. Both of us enjoyed that. I guess that begs the question, why should I feel that Wayne “cheated” on me by going to a professional spanker, when I have had actual sex with other men?

      The reason is that not only had Wayne consented to being cuckolded, he had requested it, and I didn’t do it without his knowledge. The whole point of cuckolding is that the wife is supposed to enjoy sexual freedoms that are denied to husband. That was our agreement, and he broke that agreement. That’s why I feel that he betrayed our FLR.

      But I realize now that by agreeing to act on his cuckold fantasies, I made it possible for him to be able to rationalize that what he did wasn’t really so bad. I didn’t say this in my initial post partly because that kink is out of place in Dan’s blog, where the focus is DD. But I also feel a little embarrassed about it because it feels a bit like what happened is my own fault.

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    14. Hi Danielle,

      Thank you for sharing all of this about your relationship. It's very interesting to hear your thoughts about what must be a difficult, at best, experience.

      A few thoughts in response:

      1. The cuckolding isn't a factor, it's irrelevant here. You weren't taking a liberty. You have it right when you say that he broke the agreement.

      2. For many of us the urge to cry from a spanking is very strong. For myself it's at the core of this fetish and I know I'm not alone. If I had to guess, he probably rationalized it more in terms of wanting this experience, than feeling that he was entitled to step outside of his relationship with you simply because you indulged his cuckold fantasy.

      3. When I read FLR blogs and forums online it seems there's some rigid thinking and writing about this dynamic that isn't very helpful. That's because a lot of this is just flat out contradictory. I can't give you any references off the top of my head but I've noticed on a number of times over the years that women writing about M/F relationships, which are way more common, do a better job explaining what they're looking for even though it still doesn't make much sense.

      Yes, the spankee wants to be punished, for their genuine misbehavior by a strict disciplinarian who is really looking to give them their comeuppance by disciplining the miscreant in precisely the right way, which just so happens to be the subject of said miscreant's sexual fantasy. Yeah, there's some contradiction there. Is she actually punishing him or catering to his sexual fantasies? Some of both.

      They're engaging in a dynamic that the spankee is fascinated by. The spankee wants a powerful partner who focuses their attention on the spankee, bosses them around and disciplines them in a way that makes the spankee feel both humbled and loved.

      4. Getting back to the rigid thinking, when I hear that one partner says that since they're dominant they are going to do what they want and that doesn't involve taking direction like a paid dominatrix, it sounds kind of harsh and distancing. Maybe that is exactly what some submissives want, but I would bet many more just want to share what makes them tick in the hope that their partner will be curious about that and maybe interested in exploring it. I think you're right that making it easier for Wayne to talk about his experience and what else he might have wanted out of it would have benefited both of you.

      5. How could you compete with that? Well, do you want to? If you do, I think you could do it pretty easily. You are the one he primarily wants to have this intimacy with. There's a lot on this blog in various spots about how to up the intensity. But more than that, he told you two things she did that were successful: she spanked for a long time and she alternated moods from sweet to strict.

      Best wishes for you both.

      * In case it needs to be said, and it probably does, my comments in #3 and #4 about what people in these kinds of relationships want is of course just my opinion and surely does not apply to everyone. But I'd bet it describes a fair number.

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    15. Danielle et al.- I'm going to be the outlier here and Danielle, I want to be sensitive to not make my reaction sound as though I'm being dismissive to how you felt about Wayne seeing the pro. BUT.....I don't see it as cheating. Granted he may have asked you first...why he didn't I see as the bigger conversation between you 2. You were in a sense jealous of what she ws able to do to/for him. Seeing as you see to have gotten over the big initial reaction....mysuggestion is to contact HER and talk through it. Not what he did but about what SHE does. We all can continue to learn.

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    16. Hi Danielle,
      You did earlier describe your “couple of long term affairs with other men, with Wayne’s blessing.” And I was well aware of that when I praised your candor. There is no moral equivalency between what you did with Wayne’ encouragement, full knowledge and enthusiasm- with Wayne’s actions taken in secret, without your knowledge or approval. He was wrong and deserved severe punishment which I believe you delivered. I doubt he has any confusion about your position on what he did. I also think you were wise in graciously restarting your FLR subject to further discussions you are having with him. He was wrong, not partly or mainly, but totally –and you should not harbor any doubt about that. However I think there is a large lesson for us all to learn here about communication and so called “topping from the bottom” The latter is routinely condemned by DD’ers while communications is usually encouraged as the nourishment that supports DD growth. There is a glaring contradiction here if one or both spouses shut off communication on the basis it is “topping from the bottom” which sometimes it can seem to be. DD relationships are complicated including what works and doesn’t work in administering corporal punishment (or any punishment for that matter) Some couples report doing regular de-briefings after punishment to determine what is working or not and general reactions from both spouses. We did some of that early and even today when issues arise. I have told her the things that work for me and she has done the same (it’s not a one way street as I have found). In administering punishment and being a disciplinarian there are many things she expects and she has let me know what they are. My larger point however is that communication before, after and sometimes during matters a lot and I do everything I can to promote it. You are not the first disciplinarian to warn your partner about too much information. Both my partners have been naturally hard spankers from the beginning and that is fortunate because I need that (or as my wife has sometimes suggested I have a high pain sensitivity, so I have never had Wayne’s apparent problem. But earlier when I encouraged my wife to read several good books, she declined asserting she didn’t “need to read any of that’’ because she “already knew” it all. Same with blogs like this one: she didn’t need to read them. Turns out she has changed her mind and in the process learned a lot. And again that’s my points learning and communication is the well-worn road to understanding and getting better at anything. Many of the professionals (and there are many very skilled ones) have spent years studying their “art’. My impression is that many of them welcome questions or contact with wives –and some even offer “couples learning seminars
      Alan

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    17. Everyone’s going to have their own opinions about what “cheating” is or isn’t. What matters is how the people actually involved feel about it. Apparently, Wayne didn’t feel he was cheating, and maybe still doesn’t. He can’t be forced to feel he did, especially if he has a rationale that works for him in what was, I take it, at least an ambiguous area of their relationship contract. To me, if it hurts your partner, it doesn’t matter what word you want to use. That’s really what prevents me from seeking to indulge my fetish elsewhere.

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    18. I respect pros as a group and believe most are serious, sincere and work hard to fulfill the need of men or women who patronize them. But a married man in an ongoing DD should probably not see a pro unless it’s with his wife. If you go alone but with your wife's knowledge and permission (and apparently there are some women who do tolerate this), you are still telling her there is something missing in your relationship. If it is missing you should both be talking about it and working on it rather than a husband seeking his own pleasure alone. Or if you see a pro and don’t tell her you are deceiving her about it which also undermines your relationship. . It’s a no win situation for both spouses.
      Alan

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    19. Danielle here:

      I would like to thank everyone for the thoughtful messages of support and advice. You have all given me much to think about as I embark on a renewed FLR with my husband. I want to ensure everyone that Wayne fully acknowledged that what he did was unacceptable. The context of his confession was that we had had an unrelated conversation about things in our pasts that gave us feelings of regret or guilt. Following that discussion, he wrote a letter of confession. He said he had wanted to tell me about it many times but felt too ashamed. He has also shown contrition and a willingness to give me time and space to think things through.

      The two month period when I suspended FLR was interesting because it made me realize that even without the trappings of FLR or DD there is still a D/s power dynamic between us. For the first time in ages, I started doing a fair share of the housework. But I noticed that whenever I started to do housework, Wayne would drop what he was doing and say, "You don't have to do that. I can do it." It was as though not making him do it felt like punishment to him. When that happened, I would say, "No, I'm doing this," but I would mention some other chore he could do--"if you want"--and he would hop to it, even though I was leaving it up to him. I guess that was like a courtship behavior, or maybe a kind of penance. During that time I kept him in suspense as to my future intentions regarding FLR, and he waited patiently. That has been gratifying.

      I think it was a relief to both of us when I gave into a spontaneous desire to paddle his bum when one of his old habits annoyed me. I paddled him pretty hard. It wasn't anything like the spanking he got from the professional disciplinarian, but it was real, which to me means 1) I did it for a real reason, 2) it satisfied my own sense of justice, and 3) it brought about the attitude adjustment I wanted. How much realer could discipline be than that?

      This incident has shone a stark light on the paradox of using spanking to punish a man with a strong spanking fetish. Conventional wisdom is that even if a man craves spanking, you can punish him by spanking him longer and harder than he could possibly like in the moment. That's what the professional spanker did. Wayne says that at the most painful points in the hour long ordeal, he felt crazy, like he was paying a woman to "torture" him. I asked him whether he would like to do it again if I said he could. He admits that he would, that he still has a craving for harsh spanking, but he also says it would frighten him to know he was going to be spanked like that again. He says he fantasizes about being spanked that painfully by me, even though he would fear it. He says he can't explain why, because it seems crazy to himself, but he thinks it would feel sexy to be frightened of the pain I might inflict on him. I'm not sure how to get my head around that. I guess I could try to learn to spank "like a professional." Maybe I will try. I'm not sure. But if I do, I would consider that to be a sexual gift rather than discipline. "Real" discipline for my own purposes would be done my own way, the way I enjoy doing it. Not sure if that makes sense.

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    20. "He says he fantasizes about being spanked that painfully by me, even though he would fear it. He says he can't explain why, because it seems crazy to himself, but he thinks it would feel sexy to be frightened of the pain I might inflict on him. I'm not sure how to get my head around that." I understand not being able to get your head around it, but since I am wired somewhat similarly to Wayne, I totally get it.

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    21. Maybe it’s too simplistic an explanation, but looking to be spanked for punishment is an expectation that it’s going to feel like punishment. If it’s not feared, then what is it? Yes, it’s about doing it for a real reason, about satisfying a sense of justice, adjusting behavior/attitude - but why spanking? Other punishments can be used that are a penalty of some kind, and the feelings of being spanked can be avoided.

      One needn’t be a “professional.” My parents weren’t professional disciplinarians, but they knew how to punish. I think that’s what some husbands are looking for from their wives. It can require a higher level of severity to cause similar fear in an adult. I can understand a wife not wanting to go to that level and, if that’s the case, I wouldn’t ask her to. I would want it to be her decision, not mine, so whatever works for her is the way it will be.

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    22. Hi all,
      I am surprised that the mention of a professional resulted in so much conversation, since it really doesn't fit into the whole DD dynamic very well. The only time I ever thought about a spanking professional was many years ago, when I was married to my first wife. She was completely and adamantly against spanking, especially DD or spouses spanking spouses, because of her childhood spanking experiences. Consequently, her spanking me was a complete non-starter with her. I recall there was one person who lived like in Arizona or somewhere in the southwest, and she was one of the first professional disciplinarians that I ever heard of (this was back in the early days of the internet). Anyway, I think here name was Samantha or something like that - there are still many pictures of her floating around, usually sitting on a couch, wearing a sweater, and holding a hairbrush. Anyway, she was just totally maternal and unlike the leather-clad mistresses. It is good that I lived like 1500 miles away from her, or maybe I would have been tempted.

      However, knowing what I know now, and having had the experiences I have had in the last 5 years with my wife, I wouldn't even think of it. People would assume that the primary difference is I am now getting exactly what I want/need, and of course that it seems a lot like cheating and I would never want to do anything to hurt the one I love so much. While both of those reasons are true and completely valid in and of themselves, I have also realized that a professional could NEVER give me what I want and need, which is to truly relinquish control.

      Like probably every other person who is into DD (or just those who have a spanking fetish), I have thought a lot about getting spankings that are just too hard to handle, and go on and on and on, far past when you want it to stop. But in fact, what is really most appealing about that is NOT how hard or long the spanking is, but rather how real the loss of control is. At least with my wife, I have "consensual non-consent," so while I may have chosen the DD relationship and power structure, I may still not be very onboard for any given punishment. But if you go see a professional, the consent is "per-incident," and you even are paying her to do it. To me, that would just simply not work, and would probably leave my bottom sore but with a huge empty feeling inside.

      For me, the most compelling thing about DD/FLR is the authority that she has. Spanking is necessary, because it provides a very clear physical demonstration of her authority; she can, at will, subject me to however long and hard of a spanking as she wishes, or any other punishments she can think of. As long as she occasionally spanks me a little harder and/or longer than I am good with, it keeps that power structure feeling pretty real. But otherwise, I don't really enjoy the feeling of hard spankings, so I am fine with not getting them very often, as long as I know that I might at any time.

      Anyway, just my thoughts!

      -ZM

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    23. Danielle here:

      ZM, I don't know whether you will see this now that Dan has moved on to a new topic, but I thought I should reply. Maybe I shouldn't have posted about the professional disciplinarian because you are right, it isn't DD by definition if it isn't "domestic" (within the home). But I do think it has some relevance because I thought the DD I was providing for Wayne within our FLR was meeting his needs for both discipline and kink, and it turns out it wasn't. For me this experience has made me question the meaning and place of spanking within my own FLR as we move forward. Maybe that isn't relevant to relationships where the man is less motivated by kink than my husband. I don't know.

      Incidentally, that woman told Wayne that she provides "real discipline" to many of her clients based on real life needs. Apparently, some clients who are struggling to rid themselves of bad habits (like smoking or failing to exercise or procrastinating, etc.) will go to her on a regular basis with lists of infractions or failings based on goals they have set for themselves. Maybe they go to her because their partners don't want to spank, or maybe they are single. But setting aside the fact that she is a paid professional, she appears to be meeting the need for "accountability" for some people in a manner that is similar to Dan's description of DD, don't you think?

      She apparently told Wayne that one of her clients was a retired dominatrix who would send her "slave" to her for punishment because she no longer felt like doing that herself. Wayne also asked her whether she would be willing to spank him in front of me, if I would agree to it, and she said she would. Apparently, Wayne thought I might actually agree to that, and he wanted to talk to me about it for a long time, but he kept chickening out until our discussion about guilt prompted him to write a letter of confession. That certainly isn't going to happen while we are dealing with the pandemic, but I have to say that there is some temptation to see him taken in hand by a professional.

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    24. As this discussion is history now, it’s possible no one will see this response…

      ZM: Years ago, I had a brief online correspondence with “Samantha.” She was, indeed, maternal - very helpful and caring as I was trying to figure some things out about what her service provided. Despite my telling her upfront that I was not in a position to see her in person, she was more than kind and generous in answering my questions. Under different circumstances, I believe she would have been an excellent disciplinarian for me. I don’t see paying her as a problem at all because she was genuine. It’s the person that makes all the difference to me. For discipline, if there are only two choices, I would take a genuine professional over a reluctant spouse, but I think I can understand how the transactional nature could render it ineffective for others.

      Danielle: Not that my opinion means much, but I think your experience with a professional, via your husband, is relevant to DD because a pro service can be chosen as an alternative when the desired discipline in the home is not possible, or not meeting the needs. It is the same drive either way, and discussion of one is going to cover many of the same interests as the other. In any case, it must be highly unusual for the wife of a client to witness a professionally administered spanking of another client, a stranger, at the request of her husband. I assume this would be acceptable to the guy getting punished. This scenario sounds very exciting to me, and is relevant to the discussions here about feelings with regard to witnesses and others knowing.

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    25. Brett, I value your opinions and the insightful comments you make about spanking kinks. I think I worded my last post in a confusing way. Wayne didn't ask whether the professional disciplinarian would allow me to watch her spank another man. He wondered if she was open to spanking husbands in front of their wives, i.e., would she spank Wayne in front of me if I agreed to that? Wayne tells me his plan was to confess what he had done right away, and he was hopeful that not only would I understand and forgive him, but that I might agree to witness her spanking him. But he says that longer he kept chickening out of telling me what he had done, the more difficult it became.
      Danielle

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    26. Danielle,

      A couple of your comments, "he says he fantisizes about being spanked that painfully by me, even though he would fear it" and "he wanted to talk to me about it for a long time, but he kept chickening out" reminded me of something I came across on a forum a little while ago. A woman poster that spanks her husband and who seems to have a solid grasp on the psychology of the spankee describes them as being drawn to the experience like a moth to the flame. The emotional exposure, probably to you most of all, is what he both wants and dreads.

      I think the odds are good that if you take him to this disciplinarian, especially if you do it for the purpose of seeing him disciplined or humbled, he'll be displaying that exposure and maybe his sexual response to that exposure, involuntarily, in a way that will really embarrass him. Maybe embarrass him to the point where he has a hard time making eye contact for a little while after the session.

      I understand why you're questioning the place of spanking in your FLR. Not to belabor my earlier post but it isn't purely punishment. That approach / avoid dynamic that many fetishists have towards spanking separates it from pure punishment. It just isn't the same thing as throwing a clothed man in a cold shower for several minutes until he shivers (btw not recommending, sounds awful). That's a physical punishment without arousal. This is more about being aroused by having a powerful intimate partner who can be a bit scary from time to time. Scary in that they have a good idea on what makes one tick, scary that they have the ability to emotionally regress and embarrass their partner. Hopefully scary and also loving in just the right way.

      The thread where the "moth to the flame" image comes from is below. It describes what motivates a lot of discipline fetishists better than most other attempts I've come across.

      https://www.spankingneeds.com/board/index.php?/topic/24003-emotionally-arousing-spanking-fantasies/#comments

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    27. Hi Danielle,
      Now I am the one wondering if you will see my response!

      Anyway, I wasn't meaning at all to say or imply that you shouldn't have written about this. While it may not be all that much a part of most people's DD/FLR experiences, you do have an FLR, and this became a part of your experience. Thank you so much for your candor in talking about what must be still a somewhat sensitive subject.

      What I was trying to say, though perhaps poorly, was that I was surprised at how much the topic of "professionals" resonated with everyone and elicited so many comments, since I think that many/most people here have not visited a pro (of course I may be wrong on that point).

      As for the point about a professional being able to provide accountability, I certainly agree that it is more than possible, assuming that the visits happen on a regular recurring basis. I was thinking more for the "single visit," like Wayne did. For me, that would remove the whole "non-consent" part of it since I just chose to go there and pay her money to spank me so it would leave me with just "consensual." On the other hand, if I were going every week or whatever, then she could easily hold me to account, and if I wanted the next time to go not so badly, I could behave better. So this would make it much more like the "consensual non-consent" that I have with my wife. Overall I agree to the disciplinary relationship, but she can punish me when she wants and how hard she wants on a per-incident bases, whether I agree with her on that particular punishment or not.

      Now as far as "outsourcing" punishment, that would definitely work. If my wife decided that I was to be punished and sent me to someone else for them to punish me, whether it was a professional or just a friend, that would still very, very much seem like genuine punishment. In fact, because of the embarrassment factor, it would seem super intense, whether she spanked hard or not.

      And in any case, your husband should be so very happy that you are a willing partner in fulfilling his fantasies. I don't think you should beat yourself up about whether you spank him hard enough or not. If h wants you to be in control, then how hard you spank is your decision, not his... He should just be happy to have someone like you.

      Brett, thanks for the comment about "Samantha." She was very much a part of my thoughts for several years, so it is interesting that you actually made contact with her in the past.

      And Jake, excellent thread you pointed to. I think the whole "moth to the flame" image is about the best description I have ever heard about the whole spanking attraction.

      -ZM

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    28. Sorry, Danielle. I took a wrong turn on a pronoun there. Your scenario sounds more familiar to me, as I have read about husbands taken to a pro by their wife as punishment and sometimes to learn how to give a punishment spanking. My sense of it is that most professional disciplinarians are happy to provide this service. It can be a highly erotic idea and experience for the husband, while at the same time it is providing some real practical benefit for the wife’s continued authority at home.

      Thanks ZM. I think the professional service can be an effective tool for a wife who wants to use it.

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    29. Danielle here:

      Jake, thank you for that link. It is enlightening about the psychology of men like my husband, I think. Spanking to my husband really is like a flame to a moth. He said that the professional spanking felt like “torture”, but he had an orgasm thinking about it afterwards, and he confesses he would do it again if I allowed it.

      Something I find interesting about my husband is that apparently I don’t spank him hard enough to make him truly fear my spankings, and he says it would be sexy to fear me. And yet my spanking threats seem to affect his behavior the way fear would. For example, if I give him some chores to do while I go out and threaten to spank him if they aren’t done when I get home, he gets them done. On occasion when he hasn’t completed the chores before I get home, I have found him frantically trying to finish up, as though he fears the possible consequences of tardiness. That makes me wonder, since he craves not just spankings, but harsh spankings, and is even willing to pay for that, why would he try so hard to avoid spankings I have threatened? I don’t mind. I like that he does as he’s told when I threaten a spanking, but it IS strange, I find.

      ZM, having thought about this some more, I think there could actually be some appeal to outsourcing a harsh spanking to a professional. Sure, it is an erotic experience for him, but to her it would just be a job which she carries out in a clinical fashion, not unlike a doctor or a nurse. What she did was far less “intimate” in a purely physical sense than some medical procedures. I recall that Wayne found it intensely embarrassing when our female family doctor gave him a digital rectal prostate exam as part of a yearly checkup. That was a purely clinical procedure, but I’m pretty sure that Wayne eroticized the memory of that too. Why would he even have talked to me about it otherwise?

      Oh there was one delicious detail about Wayne's encounter with the professional that I didn't mention. Wayne really hates President Trump. But he told me that when he hung up his jacket in the woman's hall closet, he saw a MAGA hat on the shelf. I kind of like that he was spanked to tears by a woman whose political views he fiercely opposes.

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    30. "That makes me wonder, since he craves not just spankings, but harsh spankings, and is even willing to pay for that, why would he try so hard to avoid spankings I have threatened? I don’t mind. I like that he does as he’s told when I threaten a spanking, but it IS strange, I find." - I think this hits at the core questions that we all seem to ask, but never really seem to know the answer to. Why do we want this, and how can we both so want it and not want it all at the same time.

      And I like your medical worker comparison. Even though an entirely different dynamic, I can see the clear parallels.

      -ZM

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  10. Danielle here:

    When I agreed to Wayne's request for FLR, we didn't discuss rules or limits. I simply took at face value what Wayne said, that I would be the boss. Looking back, I think I just felt my way into the role. He wanted "discipline" in the form of spankings, and I suspected he wanted FLR as a framework in which spankings would take place. He tried to initiate a discussion about "spanking offences", but I told him that if he truly wanted me to be the boss, I would decide when and how to spank. I told him there would be other forms of discipline too, and he agreed to that.

    I have never had a disciplinary agenda beyond curbing behaviors and attitudes that annoyed or inconvenienced me. I previously felt he didn't do a fair share of the housework, so I used my power to fix that. He has always been argumentative and proud, so I used my power to nip arguments in the bud and to humble him. I hate it when he loses his temper and starts swearing pointlessly, so I put my foot down on that. He always considered himself to be Mr. Feminist, yet he had a bad habit of "mansplaining". Before FLR he simply denied doing that whenever I confronted him about it. I used the disciplinary power of FLR to educate him about that, with satisfactory results. It also bothers me when I speak to him and he's not listening because his mind is elsewhere. But he listens attentively when his pants are down and I'm holding the hairbrush. That was the reason for his most recent spanking yesterday.

    I have never made demands on him that would undermine his sense of personal identity, and I have no interest in control for the sake of control. Fortunately, I saw no need to change his drinking habits. I can see how that could seem like a big intrusion on one's personal freedom. I did, however, start to police his consumption of junk food and his tendency to skip workouts. He accepts that. I suppose he buys into the benefits.

    Dan, you say you felt justified in rebelling against Anne's one time demand that you go to bed instead of staying up to drink beer and watch a movie on a Friday night. You say you didn't buy into that because it harmed neither you nor her. That reminds me of one rule I made immediately when we started FLR that was perhaps more intrusive than most men would accept. Before FLR I found it distressing that Wayne would stay up late to consume femdom porn. I felt neglected and demeaned by his porn addiction, and it disturbed my sleep when he would come to bed two or three hours after me. That issue came to a head in a confrontation that raised the spectre of divorce. As a result, Wayne proposed FLR as a way to save our marriage. So when I made the rule that Wayne had to come to bed when I did, unless I gave him permission to stay up later, he bought into it. But then FLR reinvigorated our sex life, so Wayne probably saw benefits in going to bed when I did. Come to think of it, Dan, maybe your refusal to stop drinking and turn off the TV on that occasion annoyed Anne because she had some other use for you in the bedroom. ;-)

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    1. Hi Danielle. This all makes perfect sense to me. Your comment about not undermining his sense of personal identity and you not wanting control for the sake of control is a great articulation of what I see as the line between DD and FLR on the one hand, and FemDom or Master/Slave on the other.

      Unfortunately, I am pretty sure that Anne was not intending to put me to other use that night, which could have made a big difference in the scenario. :-) The comment actually reminds me of a friend I had years ago at work whose two primary interests in life were wine and sex. On occasion, he would sip one drink glass of wine at happy hour and never go beyond that, and he was very open that he was going to get some that night and didn't want to put it at risk by drinking too much. It's probably a lesson that in some contexts, the carrot really is better than the stick!

      Also, just to be clear, as I recall I did comply with her order that night. I just got very resentful about it and told her later that I thought the "rules" in that area were getting excessive and leaving me resentful. I didn't ignore the order and did communicate the issue I was having, though it did still undermine the dynamic for awhile.

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    2. This dialogue above between Danielle and Dan is really fascinating to me revealing how two women both obviously skilled and experienced in making DD work approach some issues differently. I don’t think there is any one way to manage situations like this but Dan I have to tell you that if I had shown much resentment in your situation I would have gone to bed with a very warm bum. In our home at least I don’t get to decide what behavior is or isn’t harmful –and I have learned I like that –and for sure I am a better husband because of it.
      Alan

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  11. This is Liz,
    Ours is basically a single issue DD relationship - arrogance, though of course that can take many forms. But we certainly did jump to that major issue. Of course Art initiated it, and I agreed. We decided together that would be the only issue unless we mutually agreed on something else, so I do not have the authority to add additional issues unilaterally, nor would I like to have that. We are not an FLR and neither of us wants that. I consider Art the head of the household, even though I paddle his behind for arrogance, and I see no conflict with that. By asking me to take on the role of disciplinarian, he has delegated that authority to me, as any HoH can do.

    I would say that mutual buy-in is an absolute necessity. If I were not comfortable paddling him and thus did it inconsistently or unenthusiastically, it probably wouldn't work. He says he appreciates my energetic scolding that accompanies my equally energetic swing.

    As far as starting with an easier issue, that was not needed in our relationship. I'm not sure I would have agreed to spank him for leaving the toilet seat up or something unimportant like that. It was the seriousness of our situation, including a temporary separation, that inspired all of this. I don't think DD would have ever happened between us if our marriage had not been in dire circumstances.

    If Art had any other serious bad habits besides arrogance, I might suggest we use corporal punishment to improve that behavior. But I honestly can't come up with anything else that bothers me. On the other hand, his arrogance is quite enough to deal with, believe me. I am glad to have a tool that keeps it in check, though I doubt it will ever go away (nor is that my goal). A sharp tongue is part of who he is. The paddle helps him keep his mouth shut.
    Liz

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    1. This is Art. I agree with everything my wife just said. I had some issues with my arrogance last week and thus can still feel the impact of Monday morning's session, which was one of the more severe I have experienced. She was rather irritated, and I have felt extremely humble for the past 48+ plus hours. I also am watching what I say, which of course is the whole point.

      I agree with her that mutual buy-in is critical. I don't really see how domestic discipline can work without that. I am grateful to my wife for taking up the paddle, as I need these reminders. I am better for it as a husband, father, and employee. Now I need to go find a pillow to sit on.
      Art

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    2. Hi Liz and Art. You two do seem to be somewhat unique among the group in that your marriage was at a real crisis point and that crisis led to you trying DD. But, it's obviously working. Art, sorry to hear about the need for the pillow.

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  12. I thought I'd comment as I haven't for a while for various reasons. When we first discussed this many years ago (my idea of course!), we came up with a list of potential offenses which we tried to review each week. There was a certain amount of self-reporting but it fairly quickly became apparent that my wife was really only interested in using DD to engender more respect and less moods. Only when she was (and is) correcting those can she really get into it and that's really it. I have had a tendency to be a bit arrogant, a bit disrespectful and a bit temperamental.

    Those behaviors generally result in punishment the severity of which depends on her discretion. I am 'encouraged' to keep an honest journal about which I am questioned prior to any punishment. She is forensic about honesty and I have yet to find much fault with the sentence pronounced.

    She has no interest in holding me to account for the more trivial things and it generally works out with a punishment every 7 - 10 days which as she says puts me back on the straight and narrow. TB

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    1. Hi TB. I am kind of surprised that my wife has not taken up the paddle more often for disrespect and moods, as those definitely are issues for me and, of all my behavior, they probably have the most direct negative impact on her.

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    2. Disrespect has to be top of her list and subject to the severely of consequences. Her paddle will teach you respect for her and make you think twice next time. Take note Anne!

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  13. I am getting back to being held to account for perhaps acting rashly or getting mad for trivial things.I ended up with an 18 stroke bare bottom caning 3 days ago,six for each offence and now the slate is clean.Still have those nice marks on my backside.

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  14. Hi Dan,
    This week, I am actually getting around to commenting before Sunday!

    "Whether your relationship is Domestic Discipline only or incorporates some degree of FLR, who makes the rules?" - We both do. Or at least we generally have agreement about what things she is monitoring and what is expected. Having said that, she has total latitude in punishing for anything, whether a stated rule or not. And she is well aware of that power and sometimes mentions it, though seldom uses it.

    "Guys, do you suggest to your wife the areas you want to improve in?" Absolutely. We very openly communicate what areas need improvement, and I am generally pretty quick to mention things that I think would help me improve. But then I leave it up to her to decide what to focus on and what things she would prefer to let slip.

    "Ladies, to what degree do you decide which problems you want to address and how much authority do you have, or would you like to have, in determining conduct you want to address or habits you want to help him break or establish?" - We talked about this on Sunday, after this weeks topic was posted, and her answer was "completely," in that she feels that has complete authority in determining what she wishes to address. One thing I have realized is that we very much have an FLR in terms of our attitudes towards it and how we perceive our respective roles, but she is still very much learning to "flex her muscles" as we go.

    "To what extent is mutual buy-in important?" - I think it is pretty important, because real change is always preceded by the desire to change. However, there were times that she punished me, particularly those times involving my step son, and earlier in cases where I came down on her for being out with her friends for too long, that I absolutely did not agree with at the time. I resented it and felt it very unfair. However, in each of those cases, by the time the punishment was over I had realized that she was absolutely right. In those cases it was all a matter of awareness. I hadn't fully realized the effect my attitudes and harsh, critical words had on others, of course when she communicated this and I truly heard her heart, I of course did a complete 180 because what she was saying was consistent with the principles with which I try to live my life. So while buy-in is necessary, I guess it doesn't always have to manifest before, since she seems to be able to spank they buy-in into me!

    "In establishing your disciplinary habits, did you jump right to major issues or, as Alan advises, did you start with 'easy' issues and work your way up from there?" - we don't have any truly major issues, but we have tended to focus on whichever things would make the most immediate impact on our lives, so I guess that qualifies as "major issues."

    -ZM

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    1. "One thing I have realized is that we very much have an FLR in terms of our attitudes towards it and how we perceive our respective roles, but she is still very much learning to "flex her muscles" as we go." That's a pretty accurate summary of where I think we are, too.

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