"It is not only what we
do, but also what we do not do, for which we are accountable." - Moliere
Hello all. Welcome back to the Disciplinary Couples
Club. Our weekly gathering of men and
women who are in, or would like to be in, Domestic Discipline relationships.
Hi all. I hope you had a good
week. I’m sorry for not getting a post
out yesterday. I’d like to say I have a good excuse, but not really. I planned
to post yesterday, but I got caught up in trying to finish a very long book and
decided to do that instead. In the
meantime, KD had already done my work for me, coming up with this proposed
topic:
"If
starting tomorrow, behavior suddenly improved to a point that DD was no longer
warranted......what would you do going forward? Would you drop DD completely?
Change it to something else? Essentially, without the rationale of behavior as
the impetus, would you resort to living out your days as a harmonious
"vanilla couple" or "kinky couple" who continues to use
spanking for less 'real' issues?”
It’s a great topic and cuts
right to the heart of what our real motivations are. If I wanted to engage in the kind of semantic
quibbling that KD and I are prone to engage in with each other, I could give
the surface level answer that, if behavior is great such that there is truly
nothing to address or to try to improve from either party’s perspective, then
almost by definition any spanking that is happening isn’t “DD” anyway. So, the
issue isn’t really whether you would drop DD, but whether you would drop
spanking or, probably more accurately, drop the disciplinary rationalization or
justification for the spanking.
But, that’s a bit too
easy. For myself, I would answer it like
this: My motivation for DD has always
been tied primarily to the accountability element and only secondarily to the
spanking element. So, if all of a sudden
my behavior and performance became perfect in both my eyes and hers, I doubt I
would feel much motivation for corporal punishment or its trappings. And, this
isn’t just theoretical. I have had
periods where my desire for that part of our couple dynamic just vanished. It happened once after I had surgery. Some
residual impact of the anesthesia left me totally and completely uninterested
in DD, DD blogging, DD art, etc. for several weeks. It just vanished. So, I do know that life without
the desire for DD is possible. Moreover, I’ve gotten close to that absence of
desire for DD at times when I’ve seemed to be getting to some deeper level in
my meditation practice. There have been a few times here and there when I would
reach a semi-sustained level of contentment, and at those rare times most of
the desire for accountability went away.
So, again, I know there is
some state of being I could get to in which DD just would not be something I
cared about. But, to answer KD’s question about whether the kinky side of DD
would go forward, it’s complicated. I’m
sure kinkiness would go forward in some form, but I’m not sure it would be
anything like DD or spanking fetish stuff. I kind of doubt it, because for me
when you remove the accountability element, the spanking element alone just
doesn’t do that much for me. A more open
question is whether the FLR and dominance elements would continue. Perhaps. As
time goes on, Anne clearly becomes more and more openly into being in
charge. And while part of me resists it,
another part undeniably finds it sexy.
But, it’s hard for me to say how tightly linked that is to DD since our
explorations in that area began with DD and could possibly end with it.
Honestly, I just don’t know.
Now, ZM provided a much
different answer in his response to KD. He is emphatic that his DD desires are
linked only in small part to whether a change in behavior actually happens:
-
There is a big difference between benefits and reasons. For us one minor
benefit is improved behavior - among many others such as unparalleled intimacy,
better communication, and so on - but the REASON we do DD is quite simply
because I have a fantasy/fetish/kink/need for imposed discipline.
-
Probably DD could be effective without there being an underlying fantasy or
kinky desire, but that would dramatically change the dynamic. Then it would be
a lot more like being sent to the principal’s office was for most kids.
- If
you remove most of the sexual element from it - i.e. Alan’s “nuclear option” -
does that make the feelings around the whole thing seem more like the
principal’s office experience.
-
Huge paradox. How is it that something that I want and need so badly that I
actually crave it can be used as a punishment? Some might say to make the
punishment to not be spanked, though for me that wouldn’t work as well. For us,
the key to this is that while I really, really crave all this every other time
OTHER than when it is happening (or imminent). THEN I will do anything and
everything to keep it from happening and I most sincerely do NOT want it to
happen!
- The
fact that is all at once so not wanted at the time, yet also so deeply tied
into underlying fantasies is what gives it such incredible power and
effectiveness for me. When she “speaks to me” in this way, she will be clearly
heard, and it will stay present in my thoughts for days or weeks afterwards, so
that can help to change even deep-rooted behaviors and attitudes.
-
Another paradox. The act of spanking (at least in the context of marriage or
relationship) is undeniably sexual, even though it is unbelievably unpleasant
at the time and even if the “topic” or reason for the spanking (which is a real
transgression) is not in any way sexual.
-
this whole sexual and non sexual thing is what drives the secrecy dilemma. I
really wish that someone - anyone - could know about this, since it is such a
large part of what makes me tick. But because there is a sexual element, it is
not easy to share.
- Why
do we so need to convince ourselves that our DD relationship is not driven by a
fantasy for it to be real? I can assure you, the times my wife has chosen to
punish me, it has been because she was truly upset, irritated, disappointed,
hurt, or frustrated. Yes, the whole DD thing plays into my fantasy, but the
reasons are real enough, the punishments are a little too real, and the fact
that there is an underlying fantasy just helps to really drive the message
home.
- At
the same time, there are those who need to convince themselves that the reasons
for punishment are not all that real, so they can take comfort in knowing it is
just some kinky game for them with trumped up reasons. Maybe they fear they
might be seen as abusive bullies or something? My wife kind of fell in this
camp in the beginning (she really needed it to be just a game), until she
realized that DD was actually super effective at dealing with real feelings and
issues. Of course, if we didn’t have DD, we would find other ways to work
through problems - like simply talking or something - but we have DD, we have
found it to be most effective, and we prefer it.
- I
am going to assume that many people are here because the husband has a fantasy
linked to spanking or imposed discipline which he has shared with his wife.
Fantasies that are shared bring incredible intimacy, whereas fantasies that are
hidden tend to bring about distance and even destruction. Also, trusting your
wife to choose when, how, and how hard to punish you and also look out for your
well-being causes another level of intimacy. So having experienced this type of
intimacy, if you didn’t have DD, what would you do to not lose that level of
intimacy?
What is your answer to KD’s
question? If your behavior suddenly improved dramatically, would you still have
the desire to be “disciplined” even if there was no bad behavior to correct? Would
you go forward with something that looks a lot like your current kinky
practices, even if the behavior modification element was no longer necessary?
What would that look like?
Ladies, if he suddenly
improved all those things that annoy you, hurt you or make you angry, would the
desire to spank still be there? What about the desire to dominate or exercise
your power or authority in some other way?
Have a great week.
This scenario has already played out in our relationship. My behavior improved to the point punishment spankings nearly faded out completely. It was then that we instituted our maintenance program. Like I have reached a level of good behavior and that level needed to be 'maintained' to insure the continuance of our relationship. The accountability and my submissive and supporting role as well as the other factors of a DD household. Not that a discipline spanking is never needed, nobody is perfect and she will deliver a punishment as quickly, harshly and effective as before. In answer to the question of what would happen to our relationship if my behavior didn't warrant punishments...it would go on, bolstered by the "reminder" of regularly scheduled maintenance spankings.
ReplyDeleteThanks, SC. See Arthur's response, which also brings in the issue of maintenance spankings.
DeleteI suggested entering a DD program to salvage a marital situation that was going down hill because of my behavior. My wife accepted. We agreed on the behavior to be improved in writing. Violations would result in spankings, the scope of which would be determined by my wife. In the first year I corrected most of those behaviors, but a few remained, to wit, temper tantrums, being selfish at times, causing an issue due to an attitudinal problem. When these exceptions occurred, my wife, pursuant to our agreement spanked me.
ReplyDeleteOver time (more than 25 years) violations and spankings became rare as time went on, but to this day they have not stopped because I still occasionally screw up. Nor do I screw up on purpose just to get spanked. Although I am clearly the leader in our marriage, my wife enjoys the power to spank me if, and when, I have it coming. It is almost like a reset button to remind me I need to maintain control of my behavior. After more than 25 years experience in a DD relationship, neither of us have any incentive to be the vanilla couple we were for the first 25 years of our marriage. The only time that pops into my head is when the spanking starts and continues until it stops. But when its over, my guilt is also over and I admire my wife for nipping things in the bud before they get worse. For us, the issue you have raised is moot because I'll never be perfect and my wife knows that. We also know, without any doubts, that the system works for us. Fred.
Fred, like you, I think the chances of me reaching such a state of perfection are 'nil.
DeleteInteresting. A few hours before your post went live, I finished one for my blog that will publish tomorrow. It was about pretty much the same subject. Last year when I had surgery, aftereffects from the anesthesia left me uninterested in spanking, punishment, DD, etc. It also left me pretty uninterested in sex.
ReplyDeleteMore recently, I did go through in time when I didn't need a spanking. I obeyed my rules and didn't piss off Mrs. Lion. My interest in sex dropped off. Spanking has a dual purpose for me. It is an effective punishment that actually corrects my behavior. It's also an important subtext for my interest in sex. I can't explain it, it's just there.
We tried "play" spankings. They didn't have the same effect as the disciplinary ones. Maintenance spankings are more to keep my motor running than to have any disciplinary value. I still dread disciplinary spankings. It's ironic that if I don't get regular doses, it affects my interest in having sexual fun.
For me, the anesthesia killed off my interest in DD, but not my overall interest in sex. I think it did diminish the sex drive somewhat, but I also had a lot of residual pain and discomfort from the procedure. The impact on my DD interest seemed very specific and not just part of a reduced overall sex drive.
DeleteI think Jimmy's request to be spanked opened a Pandora's Box that can't be closed. Even if he totally respected me as I have been hoping he would for so many years, I don't think I could go back. This newfound power is very important to me. Jimmy used to clearly be the most powerful one in our relationship; now I feel like I am. I definitely know I have recourse when Jimmy treats me badly, and I know the bath brush works. There is no going back!
ReplyDeleteBelle
I bet your Jimmy hates me for talking you into trying this. ;-)
DeleteYea, but I love you for it!
DeleteBelle
Have I been away too long? Dan.......you got Belle and hubby to start using DD???????? Ok I'm intrigued!
DeleteDan, Belle,
ReplyDelete"Ladies, if he suddenly improved all those things that annoy you, hurt you or make you angry, would the desire to spank still be there? What about the desire to dominate or exercise your power or authority in some other way?"
This is a great topic. I've said a few times that my husband has nearly made a 180 over how he was when I first knew him and dated him over 30 years ago. He makes good decisions, doesn't squander money, has excelled in his career and has learned to be responsible when it came to our home. Like others here my husband and I have DD to correct a situations that come up with him and move on. He received a fairly painful caning a few weeks ago for treating me disrespectfully, and that served as a reset for him because it showed him I was VERY seriously about being more Dominant in our FLR as he asked. Like Belle's husband, my husband opened a "Pandora's Box" when he honestly admitting wanted me to be a tougher, although I dismissed it for a long time as "kink talk".
Since I hold authority, DD has evolved, like he has, and doesn't have to be painful. That's why my husband was punished while I was away visiting my sister by me assigning him chores; fixing my closet shelf and straightening two of my closets (one a small walk-in type). He also received closet maintenance assigned permanently moving forward (lol, I'll help him though). That punishment was very effective. I recalled we had purchased a new shade sometime back and asked him to replace it this weekend. I received a "Yes Carol" as a response and the shade was installed in a few minutes. I actually told him, "It feels good to be boss." I then used my authority and gave no assignments to him this past weekend; no errands, no chores and no cooking. Most things were in pretty good shape. So, we relaxed, watched tv and snuggled (I control that too). Some level of DD is needed to feed his submissive needs, and of course he is happy and my life is easier. So, like Belle says, "There is no going back!".
Have a wonderful week,
CarolH.
Hi Carol. Your response really points out that there are maybe three different questions that KD's scenario seeks to tease out:
Delete(1) Is it about punishment/accountability/behavior correction, or is it a fetish?
(2) If it is about behavior correction, is that still linked directly and solely to spanking?
(3) If it is a fetish, is the fetish about spanking or about submission, such that if the DD aspect was removed it would morph into some other kinky expression
Dan,
DeleteYou made great refinements on the questions. I haven't though a lot about these three questions, but the first question that came to mind again is whether I excited submissive tendencies that my husband already had, or whether I was the cause of his submissive tendencies through playful and serious DD? The answer is a little of both I think. I believe the relationship I currently have with my husband is "punishment/accountability/behavior correction" (1) and some part of (3) submission and fetish(es). My guess is that my husband might never have recognized he had submissive fetishes if he ended up with a different woman but I don't know. As far as remaining the boss in a DD/FLR marriage, if my husband wanted a more equal relationship, or a return to our relationship as it was before 2020, I would have to be open to it. My husband claims he is happy. I know he absolutely loves the kink from time to time. If I was a betting woman I would say there's not much chance of my husband wanting to dispense with DD and FLR activities no matter how much he improved. Some of these FLR activities drop him into a submissive place.
Regards,
CarolH.
I'm not looking to take the conversation off topic.......its just that Carol made a comment that always catches my attention from a wife..."when he honestly admitting wanted me to be a tougher, although I dismissed it for a long time as "kink talk"."......makes me curious how long did it take for u to come around and what was he catalyst that made u finally realize it wasn't just kink talk, that he was serious?
DeleteDarren,
DeleteWell, it has been since 2017, when we actually began to have an empty nest. There's always been some kink and DD in our marriage, but overall his discussions about a FLR were fairly infrequent. My husband joked about having a 'Yes Dear' marriage. Now he does. We basically had our specific areas where we were both had authority. When our nest became empty my husband started to ask for me to run a tougher ship. I though it was still just talk related to DD and intimate play sessions we had. I began to realize it wasn't, and my husband was quite serious. He'd do what I said, usually without question. He had even posted here and elsewhere that he wanted a stronger FLR marriage. I was mad at him for something he said to me and sent him off to our bedroom to do corner time for 30 minutes. I told him he better think about what was wrong that he said and be able to explain it to me in his own words lol. He saw I was assuming the roll of boss. You'd be surprised by the look on his face when I replaced all but three pairs of white briefs he had with panties and, later, forbid him to touch his bonus without permission!
CarolH.
CarolH- thanks for great response.
DeleteMan.... there certainly seems to be a good correlation with becoming empty nesters and this finally getting ramped up.
And I doubt I’d be surly by his expression being surprised looking down for the first time at HIS “panties drawer”! It was likely the tangible demonstration that you had finally fully engaged in it. And since we’re talking physical reactions... I can bet when he saw it he instantly wouldn’t have been able to fit “himself” in a pair of lace panties. And ok, sorry have NO idea why I’m curious about this LOL just have to ask. What “type” of panties and where did u get them?
Grrrr SURPRISED by his reaction
DeleteDarren,
DeleteI'm probably stretching Dan's limits of FLR discussions (sorry). My husband was very happy and I'll leave it at that. There is definitely a relationship between having an empty nest and DD relationships and FLRs.
Regards,
CarolH.
Actually, I don't think Dan is all that opposed to some of these tangents as he might appear to be, as long as it ties in well with DD/FLR and as long as we don't start to get a bunch of posters mistaking the forum for Penthouse Letters or something like that. We have even had a topic (or perhaps several) specifically about aprons, panties, and things like that.
DeleteAnd yes, that would be a very visible and tangible show of control.
Regarding the empty nest, I can barely wait, at least in the DD/FLR regard, but also I know I will miss having kids around.
-ZM
Hi Carol & ZM,
DeletePerhaps Dan will weigh in but I agree with ZM that you nor Danielle or other women who sometimes fully flush out the contours of your FLR beyond spanking are not transcending any boundaries; in fact they illuminate and clarify what real DD looks like. BTW your use of “forbid him to touch his bonus without permission! ” appears to be a euphemism for unauthorized masturbation. If so, it’s very creative and a term I have never heard to refer to the penis
Alan
I think ZM's "Penthouse letters" analogy is a good way to put it. I don't have a problem with talking about kink. I don't have a problem with explicit discussions about sex. What I have a problem with is when there just isn't any connection to DD, or as ZM suggests when the connection is ephemeral and really just a vehicle for the person to launch into a story about their latest spanko fantasy. I wish there was a clear line I could draw, but there really isn't. I also admit I'm a little more tolerant when it comes from a female poster(and one that I actually believe IS a female, which I doubt in some instances), because one of the reasons I have used editorial discretion to chase off some of the Femdom posters is because I think that kind of content actually makes it less likely that some women will participate here.
DeleteAlan and Dan,
DeleteWhat I said concerned my husband's bonus. It wasn't a "euphemism for unauthorized masturbation". I control the finances. The idea of controlling his bonus came from another internet source. It seemed like it would send such a deliciously dominant message to him: every cent is mine. He can't touch it or reward himself. He must defer to me and seems to like this. As far as other intimate FLR activities, we're still new to kinky aspects. I can also understand where extreme Femdom comments might discourage other ladies from participating, however, so I won't go further except to repeat that hubby is very happy.
Regards,
CarolH.
This is Arthur. Our DD is for one specific purpose, curbing my arrogance, so if that was no longer an issue I think the paddlings could stop. However, I consider that hypothetical, because my arrogance and sarcasm seem to be a character flaw that is part of my personality. I think it can be curbed but not eliminated. In other words, it is likely to always be an issue.
ReplyDeleteAnd since most of my paddlings are preventative - I get them so that I won't act arrogant - it would be hard to know if the unlikely possibility happened that arrogance was no longer an issue. It's circular: I don't act arrogant because of preventative paddlings, but if the arrogance "stops" and the preventative paddlings stop then the arrogance is likely to return, so then why stop the preventative paddlings?
I also think that I (and most people) have blind spots about my character flaws. I certainly did about arrogance - enough to cause my wife to temporarily leave me. So if Liz came to me and said she thought we should use paddling to address something else, I likely would defer to her judgment.
Arthur
Also, DD isn't sexual for us, so the kinky aspect isn't a reason for us to continue in some way. It really is about improving my behavior toward others.
DeleteArthur
Hi Art,
Delete"So if that was no longer an issue I think the paddling’s could stop" . I wonder if Liz would feel the same way after they had ceased a while. Many of the posts from our disciplinary wives suggest it might not be that straightforward. Certainly with my own experience with two separate women, neither ever showed any inclination to give up that authority once it was established For both of them the question itself is rhetorical since the “behavioral” issue is never completely resolved.
Alan
It is pretty theoretical for me, too. The things that get me in trouble are pretty deeply rooted.
DeleteAlan, I had that same thought.
DeleteAlan, I couldn't agree more. It might well be the husband who leads the wife into this - at least most of the time - but those wives that take to it seem to get pretty into it themselves. And having tasted power, or maybe just true equality, they might not be quick to give it up.
Delete-ZM
Which I think is an interesting distinction that KD's hypothetical might tease out -- for the men and the women, is DD about behavior modification, or about modifying power relationships. Or both.
Delete"Ladies, if he suddenly improved all those things that annoy you, hurt you or make you angry, would the desire to spank still be there? What about the desire to dominate or exercise your power or authority in some other way?"
ReplyDeleteAs Art mentions, this is interesting for us because in a sense I paddle him so he won't "annoy, hurt, or make me angry." So if he went an extended period with no arrogance incidents, would I stop paddling him and see if the arrogance came back? Or keep paddling him so it doesn't come back (possibly with a vengeance).
I think I would continue with the paddlings unless he came to me and asked me to stop. Then I would stop. But if he doesn't ask me to stop, then he obviously thinks the paddlings still have some purpose - and he is probably right. If he would rather not take the chance of his arrogance rearing its ugly head, then I certainly wouldn't want to take that chance either!
In terms of exercising my authority, that has been one of the big surprises of DD for me - that I enjoy exercising my authority even as I stay mostly in the 50s wife tradition. In most situations I really like a more submissive role (in public and in bed are two of them), but I do get a kick out of this authority he has delegated to me to hold him accountable. If I no longer had that, I am not sure how I would feel about it. But even if we were no longer practicing DD, it would be comforting to know that if he started getting arrogant again, I would have some recourse that is much healthier than running to my mother.
Liz
Thanks, Liz, for the very nuanced and honest response.
DeleteMy fetish is fair and legitimate discipline based on reality -- no role-play or contrived reasons to punish. Because we can’t predict the future, and no one is perfect, we could never arrive at the conclusion that “DD was no longer warranted.” If it turns out there’s no reason to spank, then that’s what we live with. It’s actually a relief. The condition of authority, DD, FLR, etc. exists regardless of whether punishment happens, and that satisfies the fetish. Within reason, she could also impose stricter guidelines on behavior, which could lead to new issues needing resolution. She could even punish for past transgressions in my life that went unpunished. Many interesting possibilities.
ReplyDeleteFor me it’s not that complicated a puzzle to solve because it’s modeled after parental discipline. The relationship and conditions exist where punishment can happen or not. It’s good when it doesn’t, but will satisfy on many levels if it does. Kind of a win either way because it’s all real. At least that's my theory.
Rosa and I were kinky prior to our DD arrangement, during it, and I'm sure we'd feed the need with something that teased the edges of real DD if actual DD was no longer needed in the future. My dynamic has often seemed different from most here, so I am not surprised by the responses. For us, DD is a certain, specific, conditional subset of an overall kinky, fairly Femdom.......but not extremely so (at least in my opinion) .......lifestyle. And over time, my desire for genuine punishment has become infrequent and narrow. As I've said before, I don't have slacker issues or overindulgence issues. My faults are rooted in impatience......and as I've gotten older I feel more entitled to them. The world within my circle and the world at large have proven to be far more undisciplined and irrational than I am even at my worst and as such, dealing with the crap around me makes me feel far more desirous of support and reward for the effort than for punishment over the little faults that occasionally pop up. However, if Rosa seemed in a 'mood' and wanted to do a "just because" or "reminder of roles" spanking, I would be FAR more inclined than if she just became more picky over genuine behavior.
ReplyDeleteThat said, a clear and significant fuck-up.....especially an unwarranted and hurtful one......will still trigger a desire in me to atone. But as I said, if those things never happened again......hypothetically*.........we would still spank for other stuff.
(* I have to say.....without pointing to any particular comment or comments, that the responses I sometimes see to hypothetical questions in many places, make me grin as I picture these same folks doing a questionnaire-style meme:
"1. If you were a flower what would you be? 'I'm not a flower so none.'
2. If you had the money to travel anywhere, where would you go? 'Doesn't matter because I don't have unlimited funds.'
3. What superpower would you wish to possess? 'People don't have superpowers, so none.' "LOL, what a fun way to live life! LOL )
Hi KD,
DeleteHahaha for the hypothetical questions responses. I actually think that most of the best questions are hypothetical, and the answers to them often reveal much.
-ZM
Thanks, ZM. I agree that hypotheticals serve SO may purposes, but to see them sort of dismissed solely due to improbability is fascinating. I mean isn't their innate improbability the reason they're presented as hypotheticals in the first place? ;-)
DeleteI agree, though to be fair, I think some commenters did try to answer the hypothetical while also explaining that they doubt it would ever become reality for them.
DeleteBehavior did improve, but spanking continued until his cancer diagnosis when we mutually agreed to discontinue it.
ReplyDeleteHi Merry. That certainly seems like a damn good reason to discontinue it.
DeleteYeah...
Delete(1) Is it about punishment/accountability/behavior correction, or is it a fetish?
ReplyDeleteIt is about behavior correction for me, but I believe it also is a fetish for Jimmy because he is aroused before and after the spanking. We have yet to really discuss that, but we will!
(2) If it is about behavior correction, is that still linked directly and solely to spanking?
Not solely. I also deny him sex due to his poor behavior. He has to earn his way back to my pussy. And of course we broke up largely because of his constant disrespect.
(3) If it is a fetish, is the fetish about spanking or about submission, such that if the DD aspect was removed it would morph into some other kinky expression?
He doesn't seem to be into submission, with all of his macho and swag (which turns me on). But when I send him for the bath brush, he gets it and bends over the arm of the couch without complaint. I think he is kinkier than he lets on. But I don't want him to turn into a puppy. I want the swag but without the disrespect. And I am not giving up my new power, so if it wasn't DD it would be something else.
Belle
Yeah, I think most of us struggle to come up with a good answer as to why we get aroused by something we genuinely dread.
Delete"Ladies, if he suddenly improved all those things that annoy you, hurt you or make you angry, would the desire to spank still be there? What about the desire to dominate or exercise your power or authority in some other way?"
ReplyDeleteSince I've already said I enjoy disciplining husband, of course the desire to spank and use other disciplinary tools will always be there. It's the same for desiring to exercise my authority. Since I'm a Disciplinarian and not a Dominatrix, I don't have this desire to be dominating. I like being bossy, yes, but bossy and dominating aren't always the same.
It's not often behavior suddenly improves. I knew when I started to discipline husband (then boyfriend) it was going to take some time and many trips across my lap. While we strive for perfection, both of us know it's a goal that won't be reached, but it doesn't stop us from trying.
It took many Disciplinary Sessions and other things, but, pornography, which was my number 1 pet peeve is now the exception rather than the usual for him.
Him being quick to let someone know what he thinks of them was another pet peeve. He doesn't like my best friend and she doesn't like him, either, but then that's what best friends are for. He let her know and was real rude about it what he thought of her. He's done that with a couple of my other friends, too. I admit that these ladies, especially my best friend, can be ___________ at times, but, be nice about it. Many trips across my lap in front of those ladies has gotten him to mind his manners.
Sometimes, lately, I've said to him while trying to be cute I might have to invent more rules for him so I can keep disciplining him. What I think really is happening, though, is things that annoyed me less now are annoying me more because a lot of my pet peeves he just doesn't do as much as he used to. What happened was I concentrated on his more annoying habits and didn't let the other ones bother me at the time, although they really did bother me.
Ever since I've known him, he has this habit of leaving things around. He'll make a little frozen pizza as a snack and get a beer. He leaves the wrappings and box on top of the microwave and leaves the beer bottle and paper plate on the table by his computer. Later, he gets a soda while he watches something on TV and leaves the bottle on the end table. He opens the mail at the table by the door and leaves the opened letters there. Just before he went to bed, he used to collect all of the bottles and wrappers and junk mail and put it in the trash or recyclables. Then he put the bills in his portfolio. I still didn't like all this stuff sitting around all day, but, since I was working on pornography, I let it go. Also, he was picking up after himself eventually. Because of him eventually cleaning up, I maybe guessed i could let it go for a while, while I worked on more important things.
Sometimes I said something to him and sometimes he'd pick it up, sometimes he didn't. I did start to say more about it when he was notified he was under Discipline or when I put him in chastity. When that happened, he had to pick up the stuff because that's one of the conditions when he's in either status. It bothered me less while I was working on his pornography habit or his mouth.
Once I got his mouth under control and his pornography to a minimum, I'm now working on this. It bothers me now as much as his pornography used to.
I don't think we'll ever run out of things to improve. I really don't see discipline becoming a less frequent practice in our house. There's always something that needs work and he falls back into his old habits sometimes, too.
KD has a fun story about a man's pride and distaste for one of his wife's friends resulting in spankings from both the wife and the friend.
Deletehttp://mattmansfigures.homestead.com/XPride.html
This is actually his best F/M fiction and deserves to be mentioned in the same reference to -al's "Even More", itself a classic of the genre.It probably appeals more to those interested in witnessed spankings, but in that arena it is superb hitting all the buttons. If I remember correctly I came across it not long after the first time I was disciplined in front of her sister ( I had a tense relationship with her sister at the time but now it is very good), I was struck how much KD captured my feelings and how it all played out. In general I think the F/M fiction genre is filled with garbage, not will written and not written by anyone who writes from experience. But these tow stand out and should be exemplars to other authors who aspire to write F/M fiction
DeleteAlan
The question is a hypothetical that in the real world probably arises for less than one in every thousand DD couples. Even when the original motivation for DD (specific male misbehavior) has become moot (and that does happen if the spankings are real and consistent in the early months of a relationship), other behavior issues replace it just in the natural dynamic of a long term relationship. The more authority a women feels, the more likely she is to use it to shape her husband’s behavior beyond the issues that led them to adopt a DD life style. A wife often discovers or becomes aware of additional behaviors that she decides to correct. In effect as a relationship matures, discipline becomes stricter and standards are increased. So the question proposes a very unrealistic scenario. Nevertheless it is a provocative question because it prompts one to think beyond the behavior rational for DD (bad male behavior). Many of the eloquent women who post here have already answered the question from their vantage and so far the consensus seems to be that DD would continue for the other benefits it brings including the power exchange and the authority DD brings (and there is an erotic element for some). From a husbands perspective I believe the same conclusion would be reached, albeit for different reasons. Learning to obey my wife, and know she has the very real power and authority to discipline me gives me a sense of safety, calmness, and confidence that go well beyond being spanked or even scolded. I am an alpha male and intend to remain one but find deep fulfillment in accepting her authority whether it’s a command to bring her brush to her or simply not forget to pay the cable bill. I have a deep need to have her exercise authority over me and even if I became the “perfect” husband tomorrow (zero chance), I would still have that need. At the very bottom I have a deep need for discipline in my life and for her to provide it. DD does that for us and will continue to do so even after I am perfect.
ReplyDeleteAlan
Hi Alan, lots of good stuff here! "The more authority a women feels, the more likely she is to use it to shape her husband’s behavior beyond the issues that led them to adopt a DD life style" Yep, absolutely true. My wife has commented several times that she is just now starting to realize that when something irritates her, she has the power to change it. "In effect as a relationship matures, discipline becomes stricter and standards are increased." Again, completely true for multiple reasons. First off, little things that maybe don't matter start to become more annoying as they go on year after year and the honeymoon ends. Secondly - at least for me - I am no longer being compared to my wife's ex husband, which was a pretty low bar, but rather to myself and to the best I have been. "know she has the very real power and authority to discipline me gives me a sense of safety, calmness, and confidence that go well beyond being spanked or even scolded." Exactly! I was kind of surprised by the feelings. "At the very bottom I have a deep need for discipline in my life and for her to provide it. DD does that for us and will continue to do so even after I am perfect." I couldn't have said it better!
Delete-ZM
Hi ZM,
DeleteThanks for the affirmations. I find it fascinating that so many of us share beyond the interest in spanking many common emotional needs for female discipline and more than a few common experiences throughout our DD adventures. It takes me back to my "genes" hypothesis as well as a suspicion that we share some cognitive structures as well. I have kidded -al, who sometimes comments about us being brothers, so strong are the parallels between his experiences and mine. And his wife's attitudes and methods could make her my wife's sister (who in real life has an unrequited interest in DD with her own husband). The parallels at times are eerie
Alan
I too feel like there are some eerie similarities between me and some of our commenters. I was delighted when Al revealed that he was the author of the Even More story on the DWC website, as that one in particular has always really grabbed me and, in fact, was probably instrumental in causing me to refer my wife to that website and suggest that we give this DD thing a try. I also sometimes wonder whether ZM and I are twins separated at birth, though as a true techie he probably is way better at math.
DeleteI'm not a parent, but I would think that once a parent decides to spank they would continue the practice until there is some demonstration of new maturity, emotional (such as taking responsibility for one's actions) or physical(such as puberty).
ReplyDeleteSince many husbands seem to have a tendency to remain immature, why would wives stop spanking? Underwear on the bathroom floor in the mid-30s? Really?
Belle
I was spanked growing up and I have very mixed feeling about it. It caused some resentment and hostility because I wasn't old enough to understand why it was happening and that love motivated it -and it definitely didn't accelerate my maturity, probably the opposite. Husbands and boyfriends on the other hand are adults capable of understanding the consequences of their actions and giving consent to being punished. That's why spanking deals effectively not only with adult male immaturity but most other behavior issues as well. That’s the paradox of using spanking for adult discipline. It is thought of as a childish punishment but doesn’t really work that well with children and according to many studies can harm them. But if an adult male consents to be spanked by a loving partner for “unacceptable” behavior it should not cause resentment or hostility –and it definitely motivates. Spanking should be saved for adults where it actually works.
DeleteAlan
"Underwear on the bathroom floor in the mid-30s? Really?
DeleteBelle"
Husband used to be like that and he's 29. In fact, I know he only dresses up for me because I like it, not really because he likes it. The crossdressers I know are more anal about their clothes and underwear than most women. If I had husband wear lingerie or a nightie to bed, when he got up, he used to leave it on the bathroom floor, same as his male underwear. His routine in the morning is get up, go in the bathroom to take care of his business, wash and shave. He used to take off whatever he had on that night but tossed it on the floor and left it there even after he'd finished washing and brushing his teeth. Then he goes downstairs to get his coffee and Wheaties (with a banana). When he's finished with that, he goes downstairs to the laundry if he doesn't have something he needs in his drawers. Then he gets dressed for work, if a work day, or just gets dressed if not a work day. On his way back downstairs, he did pick up whatever he left on the floor of the bathroom. But get this, when he got downstairs, he used to open the basement door and toss whatever he picked up off the floor down the stairs and leave it there. His idea was whoever went downstairs first picked it up and put it in the hamper for the washer or hand wash.
Of course, I disapproved of this. This is another thing we're working on right now. I want him to put whatever he had on the night before on a shelf until he's finished in the bathroom. Then, he can pick it up, take it ALL THE WAY downstairs and put it in the hamper for the washer or hand washing. Then he can get whatever he doesn't have in his drawers, then come back upstairs and get his coffee and Wheaties (and the banana).
Originally, I required this only when he was in chastity or notified he was under Discipline, but now, it's a spanking offense anytime he doesn't do this like I've decreed.
Yes, Belle, they're still little boys sometimes, even at that age. The difference between mine and a lot of others is eventually he picks up after himself, but on his schedule, which doesn't always match mine.
Ladies: I have no problem with whatever you happen to take issue with in regards to your husbands, but please stop with the assumption that all or many men are like them. I am not. Others are not. I happen to know of a few.....but definitely one couple in particular that is the complete reverse: and he's not the slightest bit kinky. He used to work construction until he retired while his Masters Degree wife worked in the health industry. Since he got home first, he did the cleaning. He complained constantly about how she would do exactly what you both are saying your men do with leaving discarded clothes on the floor. So I'm glad you said 'many' and not 'all' since maturity is not linked to a gender. There is also the question of whether such behavior is indeed "immaturity" or just plain old, simple sloppiness........another trait that's not gender-specific. If you visit some DD blogs where the dynamic is M/f, you'll see more examples of submissive women with very similar "maturity" issues than men.
DeleteWhen I think about all the husbands and wives in my extended family, a couple of the women are quite sloppy, irresponsible, and in the course of things are often compared to children by the rest of the family who knows them. One wife in particular is literally childlike, and she’s over 40. Most are normal adults, no different than the males. If I was in a DD relationship, the idea of being punished like a child is somehow exciting, but acting like a child isn’t my thing.
ReplyDeleteHi Dan,
ReplyDeleteI waited all week to chime in, not only because I was busy but also because I kind of got a crack at the question last week, and also because I wanted to see if any of my random comments would spark any discussion, which disappointingly, they did not. Just to be clear, lest people think I am totally random (which I probably am) and that I am not much of a writer (which I am most certainly not), only the first paragraph of mine was trying to answer the question! All the rest of it was just directions I thought that discussion might go. I was particularly hoping someone would go down the “nuclear option” alley, because my wife has expressed some interest in this, and quite frankly it scares me a little.
Now to KD’s questions: “If your behavior suddenly improved dramatically, would you still have the desire to be “disciplined” even if there was no bad behavior to correct?” - I have already answered this only mostly in that correcting bad behavior is not our primary motivation, so yes I would still feel a desire to be disciplined. For me it is much more about needing imposed boundaries, so it may or not be true DD at that point, but I need to feel accountable. Also, addressing the obvious, her expectations might change as I improve, so even if my behavior improved dramatically - which it is already pretty good - her expectations could ramp dramatically as well.
“Would you go forward with something that looks a lot like your current kinky practices, even if the behavior modification element was no longer necessary? What would that look like?” Yes and no. For me, the fantasy is mostly to receive “real punishments for real infractions,” so I can’t see us just playing a lot with spankings, since they hurt! However, I have no doubt that our “kinky practices” would continue in some way. In the hypothetical where I become perfect, then probably we would do a lot more with bets and challenges, since I also get very turned on by anything involving risk, so we would likely tie punishments to losing bets or something like that.
“Ladies, if he suddenly improved all those things that annoy you, hurt you or make you angry, would the desire to spank still be there? What about the desire to dominate or exercise your power or authority in some other way?” - I didn’t ask her, but I am pretty sure the answer would be a resounding yes. For her, it is not so much that I irritate her, though I am sure I do sometimes. But even then, she often forgets that she can spank me for that. But we both LOVE the domination/power parts of this. Even if we didn’t spank, we would probably do something involving power transfer or domination, having experienced it and liking it.
-ZM
"In the hypothetical where I become perfect, then probably we would do a lot more with bets and challenges, since I also get very turned on by anything involving risk, so we would likely tie punishments to losing bets or something like that." I haven't personally done anything like this, but I can see how it would be a turn on.
DeleteAnd since I seem to be commenting on everything else this week, now I will move to Dan's refinements of KD's questions.
ReplyDelete(1) Is it about punishment/accountability/behavior correction, or is it a fetish?
This one is a tough one to answer, since as I have mentioned many times, my fantasy/fetish is to receive real punishment for real infractions. So it is both about punishment/accountability/behavior correction and a fetish, all at once! If I had to make distinctions, I would probably say that the "punishment" part is probably more of a fetish, whereas the need for accountability and imposed boundaries is probably due to some deep seated psychological need that comes from my formative years. Also, I am generally a pretty undisciplined high-achiever, if that even makes sense. I am always surrounded by chaos, even as I overcome every obstacle and routinely do the impossible. So in the end, I really do need some imposed discipline to help to reduce the chaos surrounding me.
(2) If it is about behavior correction, is that still linked directly and solely to spanking?
I am going to answer this question even though it is not about behavior correction, or at least not primarily. Either way, it is not just about spanking, though I definitely have a spanking fetish and have had forever. But as I said above, I kind of have a punishment fetish, so it doesn't have to be spanking, or even anything sexual in any way, but it does have to be in the context of discipline or punishment.
(3) If it is a fetish, is the fetish about spanking or about submission, such that if the DD aspect was removed it would morph into some other kinky expression
Again, a tough one, but in the end I would have to come down on the side of submission. I have always had a fascination with spanking, but quite frankly, as I started to get real spankings, the fascination has decreased somewhat, since at least I don't have curiosity anymore. But the overall power thing is in no way diminished, and in fact is probably even stronger than before. For us, the fact that she can spank me at any time for any reason as hard as she wishes says more about power than anything else. It is not so much that she spanks me and it really hurts - it does - but rather that she CAN spank me. I doubt that the DD thing will get all that much more serious, though perhaps it will become much more consistent and often once we become empty nesters and as her expectations rise. However, I can see that she really gets into the exercise of power and I get into submitting to her, so I can see it being further developed, whether by spanking or "other kinky expressions."
One final thought on the "behavior correction" theme from this week. She almost never spanks me because of misbehavior, but rather almost entirely because of bad attitude. Even if my behavior becomes perfect (it won't, and that isn't really all that much of a goal), my attitude will always need some adjusting, and I do really want to work on having a better, more positive attitude all the time, since that would benefit everyone in my world.
-ZM
"Also, I am generally a pretty undisciplined high-achiever, if that even makes sense. I am always surrounded by chaos, even as I overcome every obstacle and routinely do the impossible." I totally get that. In fact, I think it's this dynamic that is largely responsible for my adult need for accountability. When I was in high school and college, I routinely succeeded but it was in spite of my total lack of discipline. I was one of those people who would go out and drink with friends 'til 2:00 am, come home and crack a book for a major exam the next morning and ace it. My father rejected pretty much all authority in his own life, and he frequently told me, "I'll start laying down rules when you screw up badly enough to show you need them." That sounded great at the time, but I think in reality is stressed the hell out of me, because I was constantly way over the line in terms of risky and excessive behavior, but I always managed to pull out of it in the end. It left me feeling like all my success, all my personal safety, was on my shoulders. Looking back, I may have been able to handle that responsibility without a disaster happening, but that doesn't mean it was good for me or for my future emotional stability.
DeleteAnd what wonderful emotional stability comes from having a loving partner who knows how to use her brush and when it is needed
DeleteAlan