Sunday, May 17, 2020

The Club - Meeting 339 - Nature vs. Nurture

For good nurture and education implant good constitutions. - Plato

Hello all.  Welcome back to the Disciplinary Couples Club.  Our weekly meeting of men and women who are in, or interested in being in, Domestic Discipline relationships.

I hope you’re all doing well and getting through this shutdown as well as you reasonably can.  In an ideal world, in one with a little less frenetic pace, maybe you’ve managed to rest up and get some energy back.  Maybe you’re discovering new things about yourself, catching up on old to-do lists like reading the classics, and using this enforced time away from your “regular” life to change of those areas in which “regular” equals “rut.”


Is that the way it’s worked for me? Nope. Honestly, it’s more than a little disappointing, because some of my behavior has changed for the better, yet I still feel about the same physically and mentally.  I haven’t had any alcohol in over two weeks. While my diet has been far from perfect, it’s been a lot better since the shutdown, with far more salads and far less junk food and no bad airport meals. My exercise overall is down, yet I’m probably getting out more now than I did before the lockdown.  My old weekly routine often involved getting up before sunrise, driving to an airport, flying across the country, then spending the afternoon in an office building. Now, I at least get out to walk the dog once or twice a day. Yet, with all the positive changes, I feel about the same.  My sleep is a little better, but all the nagging physical problems are still there, my weight is more or less the same, and my libido has actually been down.  I suspect (though who knows for sure) that the flat to negative changes in energy, particularly libido, have something to do with the positive changes being offset by plunging testosterone levels as a result of being gym deprived.  There is a lot of research showing that resistance exercise increases testosterone levels and helps offset the natural declines that happen with age.  Even before the shutdown, I had stopped most of my weight workouts because of some of those nagging physical issues I mentioned.  Then, with all the gyms closed, all my resistance work came to a screeching halt.  I suspect that after two to three months with almost no resistance work, my testosterone levels are down, causing a loss of libido and basically negating whatever good effects I might otherwise have gotten from some of the lifestyle changes. 

I’ve also done a miserable job of working through my reading “to-do” list, though that has gotten a little better.  In order to start making some progress in getting back to reading actual literature, I had to consciously stop looking for new series to binge watch, and I had to really pull back on social media.  Though, the latter was more about hitting a breaking point when it comes to dealing with idiots.  I’m just so fucking sick and tired of the anti-vaccers and conspiracy theorists.  At this point, I hope they all go join a re-opening protest on the steps of their state capital and become Darwin Award finalists.  But, since I don’t like the part of myself that wishes violence and painful ends on fellow human being, I decided to cut back on Facebook so I’d stop seeing so many examples of people who richly deserve it.

 
So, now that I’ve gotten that little rant off my chest, let’s turn to the first actual Domestic Discipline topic we’ve had in a while.  Last week while the formal topics were on pause, a comment from MW that I found more than a little insulting led Liz to ask a very legitimate question:

“Is spanking innate for anyone? Can you he born spanko like you are born gay? Could this be a topic? Have you done nature/nurture before? How about if each person on here tells their story and expounds on whether they think they were born to DD, became that way subconsciously through childhood experiences, made an adult decision to take up DD, or ...?”

We’ve talked about “nature vs. nurture” many, many times over the years. But, interestingly, I couldn’t find a full-blown dedicated topic that I’ve done in the seven years the blog has been up.  Instead, it has tended to come up in the context of more general topics about “origins.” So, let’s go ahead and talk through Liz’s suggested topic.

I won’t recount my “origin” story because I’ve recounted it a dozen times or more, but I will give the highlights as they pertain to Liz’s questions.  Was I born to DD?  Definitely not.  Same with spanking.  I did not have any early interest in spanking.  Adult spanking was not “a thing” for me until well into my 30s, and I discovered DD shortly after my first real exposure to the entire concept of adult spanking.  For me they went hand in hand.  My exposure to adult erotic spanking led quickly to my discovery of adult disciplinary spanking and, while the former did inspire some short-term erotic interest, it was the latter that triggered something unique and powerful.

So, I am very comfortable that my interest in DD and spanking was not innate. Also, while I am confident that exposure to spanking and discipline led to my interest in them, for me there is a distinction between being exposed to spanking early on, on the one hand, and being exposed to adult spanking on the other.  

  
Growing up where and when I did, spanking was so common it was taken for granted. I would be surprised if anyone I grew up with was NOT spanked, and probably by each parent, by extended family, and most likely at least once or twice by teachers or principals at school.  At least for boys, it was just part of growing up.  So, I definitely was "exposed" to spanking early on, but not to adult spanking and definitely not to adult disciplinary spanking.  I don't know whether early exposure to adult spanking would have made any difference in the extent of my early interest, but somehow I don't think so, unless it was disciplinary in nature.  Even then, I'm not sure.  I do know there was never any moment in my youth when I wanted to spanked or was ever tempted to ask for one from, for instance, a hot babysitter or authority figure.

 

And, while spanking was very prevalent in the schools I was raised in, I am confident I never wanted one in that or any other setting growing up.


Now, I do think it is possible that I did my childhood experiences set up the conditions for a later triggering event.  As I’ve recounted, I grew up with very little in the way of rules and boundaries, and I do think that part of me was left craving those and feeling unsettled without them.  Later, when I did happen to be exposed to the idea of domestic discipline, I think I reacted so strongly to it because of that unfulfilled subconscious need.  At that point, I made the adult decision to ask my wife to try Domestic Discipline.

In terms of my own nature versus nurture theory, that’s about the best I can do.  How about the rest of you? What’s your story? Do you think your spanking interest is innate?  What about your interest in disciplinary spankings? Is your interest in the two (spanking and discipline) separable in terms of how each developed?  When and how did you make the decision to actually take up DD?

Have a great week.

83 comments:

  1. When I was growing up I didn't know anything about DD. I went to a Catholic school and I was spanked quite often by the nuns and they pulled down my pants to spank me. I hated getting spanked especially in front of the class but there was a part of the spanking that I liked. I also remember getting spanked by a neighbor woman and an aunt as I was getting older and I always tried to do something to get a spanking. As I got older I was really getting into spanking. I only wish we had all the information back then as we do now. When I got married the second time I made sure it was with someone who would embrace a FLR and DD relationship.

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  2. Dan,
    I'll give a woman's perspective on this. As disciplinarian for my husband I can first tell you that I was never punished when I was growing up (perhaps a swat when I was very bad). I had no interest I was aware of. When my husband was my boyfriend, and later my fiancé, spanks were mainly hard but playful swats I gave him when he annoyed me, sometimes when we were intimate. I gave him his first serious punishment when he was really rude and mean to an older aunt on my mom's side. I spanked him in private and it seemed to turn us both on. It seemed to generate interest in him without question. I think disciplinary spanking is obviously in the mind, but I also think people need some catalyst for it. My husband was never punished growing up, not seriously, so maybe the catalyst for him is having no history of correction. For me, I'm a dominant type and very focused.

    There has to be something that makes a couple start DD. We both decided that Saturday nights would be our regular discipline scene, although real punishment could happen other times. Our Saturday nights have been erotic fun but have also been for real discipline. I decided to fix my husband's wagon last evening. He has been nasty and rude right along. He got a caning that will stay in his memory for a time. After it was over, he told me it really hurt but he knew he deserved it. Well, it was supposed to hurt. We moved on from there of course. There's obviously something that attracts people like us to discipline. In my husband's case, he's got DD and the stronger FLR he really wanted. I'm devising some other things to do and to withhold from the old boy to help him remember who the boss is when he needs reminding. Hitting isn't healthy all the time. The point I'm trying to make is that there must be something unusual about DD and what it adds to a relationship to attract people so strongly. I think my husband is 100 percent more improved today than when I first married him. He’s responsible and focused. Of course DD satisfies a craving he must have had without realizing it when he was in, say, his 20s.
    Thank You.
    CarolH.

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    1. CarolH is describing and explaining what may be an even more obscure origin that where the spanking fetish originates, and that is why some women gravitate to the F/M orientation (allowing for “switches” and other variations). As a male I obviously don’t possess a personal experience other than long relationships with two women who made that journey. There are also two widely circulated “ hypotheses” that purport to explain a woman’s attraction to F/M spanking. Both assume that spanking is erotic in nature. One is pretty straight forward: It describes the seeds of F/M planted early when a female somehow witnesses one or more males being spanked (hears, sees, or is otherwise aware of a spanking). The male could be one who bullied or bossed her or was otherwise not well behaved and she observes the effect on him of the spanking giving her positive feelings and probably a sense of power or satisfaction over that male. That plus time may be all it takes, but more likely later environmental factors , such as later experimenting during sex, meeting a male interested in spanking or reading/learning about spanking ( such as the DWC or this blog) crystallized the earlier spanking seeds and she becomes a spanker ( or top). The rest plays out as her life unfolds. In the ideal world (our ideal world), she meets Mr. Right, and they live happily ever after, him spending lots of quality time over her lap). The second “hypothesis” is that a women may or may not be attracted to erotic spanking but is very interested in meeting her husband’s needs (which may be for discipline, punishment or just erotic play). Opening herself to the experience she finds she likes (maybe a lot) the power she experiences, the eroticism of spanking or just the thrill of it and grows in her dominance and experience. This latter explanation for F/M seems close to the experience many of the women who have commented here on the blog in the past. This also fits pretty well the former girlfriend who introduced me to DD, although she also was a natural disciplinarian from very early in the relationship. My wife discovered spanking in a prior marriage, was not originally a disciplinarian, but became one from that experience.
      Alan

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    2. "My husband was never punished growing up, not seriously, so maybe the catalyst for him is having no history of correction." I think this highlights KD's point about how complicated it is, because I hear from some people who think a lack of childhood disciplined contributed to their adult interest in it, and others who think that their adult interest is rooted in wanting to experience again the discipline they got as a child. It seems to be either a non-factor, a neutral one, or one that can cut either way depending on other factors.

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    3. Alan: My wife is certainly in the second camp -- no pre-existing spanking interest, but she has found she likes the power exchange. A lot.

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    4. Hi Dan, The apparent prevalence of that triggering, especially to the exercise of power raises some pretty profound questions about the repression our culture has imposed on women. Thankfully it is slowly changing and that is almost as good news for men as for women.
      Alan

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    5. Hi Alan. The questions are definitely profound, though I think it's a very complicated picture. I honestly don't know how many men would be comfortable in the disciplinarian role and what that says, if anything, about men's cultural conditioning. I know I couldn't do it. If women seem to be able to step into the role fairly readily, I could probably construct arguments both ways on what that says about repression and culture.

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    6. Dan, Alan,
      "I hear from some people who think a lack of childhood disciplined contributed to their adult interest in it…no pre-existing spanking interest, but she has found she likes the power exchange. A lot." (Dan)

      I was never aware of an interest I had in being a disciplinarian. I wonder whether I awakened what was already an interest my husband had that he was unaware of, or whether I reprogrammed him in some way. Maybe it was a little of both. He awakened something in me. I know that my husband was always impressed by what I accomplished in my education and in my career, even when having small children. I always had determination. He changed so much for the better over the years, almost doing a 180 from how he was when I first got to know him. My husband was always a hard worker but lacked motivation and never set goals. These are things he admitted not only to me but to our friends. He's different today. Even his career benefited. Our DD/FLR relationship hasn't hurt us as a married couple. We certainly have a lot of intimacy, some a little kinky.

      " Opening herself to the experience she finds she likes (maybe a lot) the power she experiences, the eroticism of spanking or just the thrill of it and grows in her dominance and experience." (Alan)

      This is true. I find it so interesting that my husband expressed such a strong desire in having me be in charge of DD and our marriage. He is much happier, and there's no shame in admitting that I enjoy the power I have. I have the final say in things, though I really try not to misuse it.

      "I honestly don't know how many men would be comfortable in the disciplinarian role." (Dan)
      My husband would not be comfortable. I know I've commented that I've encouraged him a few times to switch things occasionally to see what I'm missing and he couldn't even think about disciplining me (lol).

      Regards,
      CarolH.

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    7. Good points-worthy of a long conversation over a couple of cold beers. I need to add though that there may be a very sharp division between what I call the "evolved male" and the Christian Domestic Discipline types who seem very comfortable employing corporal punishment with their wives and girlfriends.There seem to be a few of them adopting Female led DD, but very few.
      Alan

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    8. Danielle here:

      My husband claims he can’t remember a time when spanking wasn’t sexually stimulating for him. But he didn’t ask for DD or FLR in the early years of our marriage. I think our “vanilla” marriage was satisfying for both of us back then. He agrees with that. Maybe he started to want to act on his primal interest in spanking and D/s to spice up our sex life because vanilla sex started to become boring after a while. Personally, I think it was getting our first computer with Internet access that did it. When he discovered online that adult/adult spanking was an actual thing, he suddenly needed it.

      Not only did I not have an innate interest in DD myself, I was alarmed by Wayne’s desire for it when he first revealed it. I guess the second hypothesis Alan explained applies to me. I eventually granted my husband’s wish for DD and FLR to save my marriage, and I subsequently discovered that I enjoyed having power. Spanking my husband wasn’t sexual for me at first; I just liked the feeling of control it gave me. But at some point I started to get sexual pleasure from the disciplinary role. I think part of that has to do with something else Alan said. I grew up in a traditional, patriarchal family, and I always felt less important than my brother, the “little genius” as my mother saw him. I felt it was unfair that I had to do housework and my brother didn’t. Then, when I got married, I discovered that my husband was a lot like my brother, the supposed “genius” of his family. I sometimes got annoyed at my husband because I felt that he condescended to me, though he always said I was just over sensitive. I was also sensitive to an unfair division of housework because of my background, so we used to have heated arguments about that. So I enjoyed the gender role reversal aspect of FLR in a way that has become erotic to me. I think that's why I eventually felt a need to let other people (my friend Barb and Wayne's sister Liz) know that I am the boss in marriage, with real disciplinary power over my husband.

      Another consideration for me is that it has always turned me on to feel desired. Over the years I put effort and money into making myself as sexy as I could for my husband. I would buy lingerie, for example, because I knew that turned him on, and having the power to turn him on would turn me on too. When I discovered that being bossy and brandishing a hairbrush could turn Wayne on more reliably than any lingerie, that sexualized disciplinary power for me. That being the boss had all kinds of non-sexual benefits for me as well—like being able to make him do almost all the housework—made it even better.

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    9. Hi Carol,
      "He changed so much for the better over the years, almost doing a 180 from how he was when I first got to know him. My husband ... lacked motivation and never set goals... He's different today" It is so very refreshing to hear a wife describe not only the benefits to the relationship of adopting DD, but also the improvements it can bring to her husband, his career and life. That sometimes seems to get forgotten, so thanks for reminding us.
      Alan

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    10. Danielle,
      You wrote, "Personally, I think it was getting our first computer with Internet access that did it. When he discovered online that adult/adult spanking was an actual thing, he suddenly needed it."

      I can believe it about the internet. For my husband and me the internet set us on the path of a strong FLR, since we did DD before the internet. He wanted me to dominate the relationship more than I was, but we both learned about FLRs from internet sources. It will be interesting to see how DD plays into me leading our marriage, and how our relationship evolves over time. Similar to what you said, I think my husband enjoys me dominating the situation and just threatening to show him how much the long cane "bites" (as he calls it) is a turn on to him, and to me. I am looking for ways to treat him in a submissive way and maintain control that don't always involve pain. I punished him Saturday night with the cane because of how he was behaving and mouthing off, but I also forbid from using the internet this week to make punishment count. I can't control his internet use on the laptop from the office, but that's closely monitored by his employer and he won't dare to view anything that's not safe for work. He told me it made him feel like a child and I told him, "I could easily make your punishment of no internet run for two weeks." He dropped it and has behaved. He enjoys me being bossy.

      Alan,
      You wrote, "It is so very refreshing to hear a wife describe not only the benefits to the relationship of adopting DD, but also the improvements it can bring to her husband."

      Thank you. I think the way a person defines happiness and contentment can also provide motivation for them to improve, maybe more than the stroke of cane or smack of a paddle. My husband never wants to let me down. He is happy. He even enjoys the added chores and accomplishments, and I enjoy the increased freedom.
      CarolH.

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    11. Alan, agreed. I see the Christian DD dynamic as very, very different in its motivations.

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    12. Danielle, I don't doubt at all that a lot of kinky relationships simply would not exist if the internet didn't let people know those practices are a "thing." I literally had no idea there was such a thing as consensual, adult corporal punishment until I stumbled across the DWC.

      As you and I have discussed, I think Wayne and I share some unfortunate tendencies regarding being condescending. On housework, however, the arguments Anne and I have had have been in the opposite direction. I've always pulled me weight where things like cleaning up were concerned, and then some.

      I get how feeling desired could really help a woman get into DD. I totally agree that a stern woman brandishing a spanking element is way more desirable to me than any image of a woman in slink lingerie.

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    13. Dan,
      When you said "I don't doubt at all that a lot of kinky relationships simply would not exist if the internet didn't let people know those practices are a "thing..." I know it was to Danielle and I hope you don't mind me answering but I have to agree 100 percent. My husband and I clearly knew and did varying levels of DD, but the step to FLR (for which DD is often a part) was from the internet. There is no shortage of sites which have been around for years and sound very credible, though like any information they must be used as a guide only if used at all. Even if a blogger is 100 percent truthful, what he or she relates is open to interpretation and is never the whole story.

      I also think some of the openness about kinky relationships are an outgrowth of the sexual revolution and women becoming more empowered. My husband and I are in our 50s, and with the exception of a naughty teen or wife getting caught red handed or acting baldly and spanked at the end of a black and white sitcom or movie (sometimes off camera), very kinky relationships weren't discussed or even widely known when we were kids. I'm sure my husband got the craving for more from the internet.

      One thing, when you wrote "I think Wayne and I share some unfortunate tendencies regarding being condescending" I wanted to say that my husband knows acting 'condescending' to me is not appreciated. He never had any brothers or sisters and I never got too annoyed by him because of that fact but I never tolerated it because as the youngest child I got that treatment regularly from older siblings, though today my sister and I are extremely close today. In fact if she wasn't so conservative I think I tell her I'm the old boy's boss, though she probably surmises it in a non-kinky way.
      Thanks.
      CarolH.

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  3. While people like me who realized their spanking inclination very early on like to say to those who question our quirk, “I was born this way,” it is highly unlikely that it’s true. The spanking fetish is not only complicated as a behavior but is certainly nonessential to survival. Given that very primal human behaviors like walking are generally considered to be a combination of an innate drive coupled with encouraged learners, it would be presumptuous at best to think there’s some instinctive imperative to whacking butts for kicks.

    Even kissing, which SEEMS innate is quite possibly learned or also some combination of a nuzzling instinct coupled with learned social behavior.

    No, despite that my interest manifested early, it was probably due to some complicated mix of personality traits and early experiences and not some “spanking gene”. Even homosexual behavior, which has some solid evidence of genetic correlation, has not yet....... even in this age of 23&me.....been linked to a gene. (And I doubt anyone is, or ever will, study any genetic link to some “spanking imperative”.)

    As for DD? Lol, I have to say I think that one is purely something learned along the way. The fact that this blog is something of a combined tutorial and support network sort of lends heavy credence to that. If DD was innate there’d be no need for advice, how-to, or support.

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    1. You might be right, KD,that one can develop a spanking fetish at an early age without possessing a "spanking gene." But, this does not rule out that a hormone such as oxytocin, is helping to drive the fetish, and how this hormone is processed within the brain might partly be genetic, or, at least, epigenetic.







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    2. Well, hormonal secretion is not automatic for an activity. Take kissing again. Are the usual oxytocins released during a passionate kiss also released during a sexual assault where a kiss is forced on someone? Similarly hormones secreted do not always translate to the same emotional reaction. Endorphins are released during episodes of pain, so it is safe to say that they are released in the cases of both an unwanted, unpleasant spanking and one that arouses. So why does one arouse while the other doesn't? It can't be the hormone alone since both instances have that hormone bundle present.

      Given the complexity of human psychology, and given the admitted complexity of a person desiring something few others do, it seems to make sense that it's more a product of environment and how an individual interprets the bio-chemical influences that others receive differently than they do. And I say all of this with the caveat that without testing, even this opinion of mine is at best.......a guess. If there IS a spanking gene, and it is found, my guess will be proven wrong. If it's never found it won't mean it isn't there. But just because something feels a certain way, doesn't make it so. (The ground beneath our feet doesn't seem to be moving....except in an earthquake.....even though it is. The sun seems to move in the sky, but it's the other way around. We feel like we have free will, but at the risk of inciting Dan, LOL, I think there's more evidence for determinism. But, as a nerdy kid, a lot of what I learned from legitimate paleontologists about dinosaurs turned out to be wrong. So we know what we know, until we learn differently, but logic and the scientific method is still better than assuming what something feels like to be so....strictly because it feels right.)

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    3. KD: I agree that there likely is not any binary "this or that" to be had here. As you say, we are very complex creatures. I do know I am not in a good position to intuit what motivates most people who engage in this thing we all do, because I do seem to be something of an anomaly in having no early spanking interest. But, even though it doesn't fit my own experience, I can't doubt those who say that from a really early age they had an interest in spanking, sometimes preceding any actually recognized interest in sex. I've mentioned this before - I highly recommend a book I read last year by a life-long spanko: https://www.amazon.com/Sex-Shakespeare-Heres-Much-Pain-ebook/dp/B013CBG8AO/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2JAK6KG409PXI&dchild=1&keywords=sex+with+shakespeare&qid=1589819583&sprefix=sex+with+%2Caps%2C185&sr=8-1.

      While it doesn't fit my path at all, I was fascinated by the author's very early compulsion toward being spanked. I also was intrigued by, though I admit I do not understand, her position that for her spanking is not just a form of sex or foreplay, it *is* sex, to the point that if she had to give up either spanking or the actual sex act, it would be the latter. Interestingly, she married a vanilla, but one that has open to meeting her needs even if he did not understand them.

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    4. I read Jillian's book too as did my wife. Jillian is an ebullient and positive voice for the spanking community and has probably brought it closer to mainstream and reality than 100 new "Fifty Shades" could do. My wife however who did enjoy and learn from the book also remarked she had consumed from it enough "Bard" lore to last a lifetime.
      Alan
      Alan

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    5. KD, I realize this is not the place to discuss your closely held views on determinism, but, as you say above, "But just because something feels a certain way, doesn't make it so." I agree. So, let me invite you to have a look at the very readable recently written article, which convinces me that determinism is impossible: https://www.quantamagazine.org/does-time-really-flow-new-clues-come-from-a-century-old-approach-to-math-20200407/
      I will say no more on the subject.

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    6. Anonymous: Thank you for the article. I read it. Since you said you will not speak further on the matter I see no reason to post an opinion on it.

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    7. Alan: Jillian Keenan is the Rachel Ray of spanking. A perky perk-perk whose perkiness makes her observations seem as insightful and novel as Ray made using olive oil to cook with. Something that been there forever, used and discussed by many, but popularly meaningless unless presented by a young woman with a lot of teeth. LOL ;-)

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    8. Fair enough, KD. I would love to know what you think about the article, and about the subject of determinism in general. But this is Dan's blog and this is not the topic he chose for this week. Perhaps we can discuss it on your blog,in the future, if you like. That would be fine with me.

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    9. It does seem like a good topic for KD's blog. I don't have a problem with the discussion here trailing off into it, I've just been down that road enough that I'm not going to do it again here, though you guys are welcome to!

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    10. Anonymous: Either way is fine with me. Since Dan is OK with here and we've already established a discussion, I'll just continue here.....but while I am not averse to having this discussion again, I am a little weary of it. Maybe not as much as Dan, buuuuuut.....close. LOL

      My take on the article is that it is somewhat based on theoretical mathematics. I am not a mathematician nor do I find the language of mathematical formulae any more valid or invalid as any other form of expression of theory. In the article, as i recall, even the author of the theory admits it is something more intellectually ethereal than something based in experience. And that is my problem with it.

      I recently read an article about a computer simulation experiment that predicted outcomes for the interactions of three black holes. What the scientists found noteworthy was that when run backward.....so as to simulate time being fluid from past to present to future, the reverse outcomes, in a small but significant percentage, came up with vastly different results. It suggested that time cannot be reversed because it would on enough occasions result in a changing present. However, even here, the scientists acknowledged that the result might be more of a computer anomaly than proof that time cannot be reversed.

      My point is that from human experience, which is what determinism, dualism, and other theories are offered to explain, there is no evidence of time reversing. There is no fossil layer that shows that for a while time reversed and then reversed back again. On earth, time has been, and continues to be, linear.

      And while the article suggested that this mathematical theory shoots down determinism, I......either through ignorance or skepticism.....just don't see it as being dependent on whether a number has too many decimal places. It's a number. Numbers help explain reality, their nuanced dances in various elaborate formulae are not causal agents of reality. In other words, how a number behaves does not seem to have any significant association with how a human being decides things.

      But, that's just my opinion.....and it's a very non-mathematical one.

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    11. Thanks for your take on the article, KD. The physicist behind these ideas, Gisen, understands that information has a material reality in the universe, and must be finite. So where is it stored? There is no need to tamper with theoretical mathematics, per se, but there are reasons to doubt that the infinite amount of information it implicitly imparts into the material world with it adoption (without modification) requires. Well, this leads to the demise of determinism in the universe. It all makes sense to me. And I should add that the article explains all of this much more clearly than I am here.

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    12. KD,
      I agree that Keenan has overturned no new stones either in her popular book or her several articles, blog posts, podcasts, etc. It's not WHAT she said that makes her contribution important but WHERE she said it -and to an extent how she said it. She is a gifted writer with rare access to the elite print media, who is willing, indeed eager,to write and speak openly, honestly and knowledgeably about her spanking fetish -speak to a highly literate, but sexually unaware audience who heretofore have formed their impression of spankos from trashy novels,ignorant bigots, and general cultural numbness to any sexual practices not Neo-Victorian.Her influence has been significant.
      Alan

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    13. I had not heard of her at all before a female DD blogger recommended that book on her blog. I have no idea whether anything she says is groundbreaking, but I also don't think that matters. It's not like I've heard anything groundbreaking from any other author/blogger/commenter in this space. I do think that parts of her book gave me new insight, if not understanding, of the nature of a *true* fetish. Here, we tend to use fetish in the colloquial sense of a very strong interest in some particular sexual kink. But, what she talks about is having a real true fetish -- something deep inside you from your earliest sexualized and erotic inklings and that, for the fetish-ist is a core part of what sex *means* for them. Her comments regarding how, for her, spanking is not just part of sex, it *is* sex in and of itself allowed me to think about fetishes in a new way. I don't understand it per se, meaning I've never experienced something like that, but at least I now understand better what it may be like.

      And, the Shakespeare angle was at least modestly amusing and interesting.

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    14. I like this from the article: "Gisin said it’s important to formulate laws of physics that cast the future as open and the present as very real, because that’s what we experience. “I am a physicist who has my feet on the ground,” he said. “Time passes; we all know that.”" While the insistence that physics should try to align with experience probably drives some theoreticians nuts, the alternative is the proliferation of things like the "many worlds" theory:

      "Still, other popular interpretations of quantum mechanics, including the many-worlds interpretation, manage to keep the classical, deterministic notion of time alive. These theories cast quantum events as playing out a predetermined reality. Many-worlds, for instance, says each quantum measurement splits the world into multiple branches that realize every possible outcome, all of which were set in advance."

      Many-worlds is really not much more that a conscious effort to either keep determinism alive or account for the fact that our world seems to reflect some sort of conscious ordering, which is a concept so offensive to the physicists that they invent this "many-worlds" theory that is just as wild and illogical as the propositions it is designed to get around and that totally, completely, wildly violates other unprovable propositions that other scientists are in love with, particularly Occam's Razor.

      Now that I have once again hurt my 125GB brain trying to think through 560GB thoughts . . .

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  4. My interest in DD wasn't life-long. I wasn't spanked as a child (I think my mom threatened it a few times, but I don't remember it happening). As an adult, I was aware of erotic M/F spanking and even 'Story of O' M/F punishment, but they weren't things I found particularly compelling.
    And yet, I do think the interest in F/M DD is somewhat natural, even biological, for so many middle aged married men. My first spanking came in my early 50s. I've told my story a couple times as well, but I had been researching FLR (and orgasm control) and DD emerged naturally as a way for my wife and I to 'improve' me as a husband.
    And as kdpierre notes, having this site as a 'tutorial and support network' certainly gave a real focus to some of my inclinations!
    CrimsonKing

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    1. CK, while we phrase it in different ways, you and I may be getting at the same way, namely that my interest in what you call "improvement" and what I tend to refer to as "accountability" seems to me to be the more fundamental drive, and it may be fulfilled by spanking but could also be fulfilled by some other kind of punishment or control.

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    2. Also, I think it is guaranteed that my mother did spanking me, because it was just so prevalent where I was raised it would really be inconceivable that she didn't. But, while I have specific memories of her spanking siblings, I actually don't recall her doing it to me.

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    3. CrimsonKing, Dan,
      "And yet, I do think the interest in F/M DD is somewhat natural, even biological, for so many middle aged married men. My first spanking came in my early 50s. I've told my story a couple times as well, but I had been researching FLR (and orgasm control) and DD emerged naturally as a way for my wife and I to 'improve' me as a husband."

      I do believe it could be biological. In my marriage we had DD earlier, but FLR came along in a strong way for my husband in his fifties. If he wants to defer to me fine, but there's something that possibly natural or biological to DD and even FLR. Maybe the leap from DD to FLR is easier.

      CarolH.

      (Blogger must be acting up so I'm sorry if this is a duplicate. I re-posted a shorter comment here).

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    4. CarolH wrote: “In my marriage we had DD earlier, but FLR came along in a strong way for my husband in his fifties. If he wants to defer to me fine, but there's something that possibly natural or biological to DD and even FLR. Maybe the leap from DD to FLR is easier”. Carol’s remarks quoted above struck a chord with me I intend sharing with my wife. I think of our relationship as a strong female led DD because her authority to discipline (almost from the beginning) has been unlimited which we have come to refer to as “any place any time for any reason”. In reality her discipline is not arbitrary at all and with only a few exceptions I am never honestly surprised that I am “in trouble” with her. But we settled on the unlimited authority very early to nip in the bud arguments or rebellion from me when she decided to exercise authority. But neither one of us think of our relationship as an FLR because we each have our own spheres of responsibility and her interest in discipline doesn’t extend beyond my behavior in our relationship. So work or other professional activity has never been a focus or my time outside the home (unless I disobey a rule she has made) Nevertheless, thinking about what Carol is saying here really gives me pause because it makes me realize that my wife could transform a DD into an FLR if she chose and maybe as we enter retirement that is happening to some extent. That is the real implication of a wife having unlimited authority to discipline. If it happens, I will deal with it. But it’s not what I thought would happen.
      Alan

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    5. Alan,
      "But neither one of us think of our relationship as an FLR because we each have our own spheres of responsibility and her interest in discipline doesn’t extend beyond my behavior in our relationship. So work or other professional activity has never been a focus or my time outside the home (unless I disobey a rule she has made)"

      My influence over my husband beyond DD has never been great in his profession. I am present in a way: lucky for him he's got a manager role because one of my first edicts as the boss was to expect an immediate answer to something like a text message I send him. He better have a very good reason for a delay or face potential DD. This rule doesn't mean so much now but will when sheltering is over. It's pretty harsh, but it's good to be king or queen and it's a reminder to him. My husband really transformed the marriage. He wanted it and seems pretty happy in all honesty. We'll see as I dish out more. I'm a little mystified only because here he reaches a point in his life where he has freedom from children and the financial means to do some of the things he'd like, and with a FLR it's got to be cleared with me. Like I said, he's happy and there seems to be little conflicts. I certainly seem to have unlimited authority.
      CarolH.

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  5. I was not born a spanko but raised in the era I was, spanking was the normal method of discipline. At home, school, Boy Scouts, spanking/paddling seemed to follow me everywhere. As has been related here, my Aunt delivered my last childhood spanking at 16. Nothing else happened until mid life. A slowly failing vanilla marriage found me looking for an outlet which was not 'cheating' in a sexual way. Discovering the world of adult spanking opened a different chapter for me and after the marriage finally ended, I found myself visiting pro Dominants. As is their MO, discipline spankings became regular for me even if several weeks or months apart. The concept of being physically punished for behavior brought back childhood memories, especially the spanking from my Aunt. Dating and eventually marrying my second wife, I was introduced to DD living and a 24/7 household of being spanked for discipline and maintenance. This grew into a way of life I soon became consumed by. I am now a full time, spanked male submissive, under the direction and control of a Dominant female....and I love it!

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    1. Your first two lines express how pervasive spanking was where and when I grew up, too.

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  6. I was spanked by my father as a kid. There was nothing appealing about those spankings. Avoiding them was a strong reason to behave.
    One day, I was playing at a friend's house when my friend's little brother decided to mouth off to their mother. She pulled him into an adjacent room and gave him a proper spanking. My friend and I couldn't see, but we could hear clearly. I didn't know that his pants had been pulled down until he ran out of the room and up to his bedroom still working on pulling them back up. My spankings had always been with all my clothes on.
    It took me a long time to sort out my feelings about that incident. I was jealous of that little kid, which didn't make logical sense to me. That mom was the nicest of any of my friends' moms. I guess I had a crush on her. Before the incident, I thought "that is the kind of woman I want to marry when I grow up." After the incident, the crush got even stronger.
    It is debatable whether I ever grew up, but I did marry a kind, gentle woman that reminds me a lot of my friend's mom. And she is very capable of reddening my backside from time to time.

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    1. I don't remember many spankings by my father, but I do remember a few. I agree they were something to be avoided and didn't encourage any later interest in spanking. Though, I have noted here before that a M/m spanking is something that intrigues me now, because of the possibility of it feeling almost like something being imposed.

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  7. I was spanked as a kid by both parents as well as other members of my family, (aunts, uncles, etc), and at school. I hated every spanking and fought to get out of every one of them, up until the age of about 17. Most were given clothed, but my mother preferred to bare my bottom whenever she believed we had stepped over the line, even when I had friends over and nearly always in front of another family member. Dad just up-ended me on the spot and let me have it, no matter how I was dressed, (once, just out of the shower), so being spanked wan't anything new for me.
    I guess the spanking fetish started very early when the warm feeling of a freshly spanked bottom gave me naughty feelings that came from the adrenaline rush from the punishment and embarrassment if anyone else was around. This is still the feeling when my wife spanks me and I'm now in my late forties.

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    1. Sounds like you and I grew up in similar environments. Parents, grand parents, aunts, uncles, teachers, principals, friends of the family . . . pretty much everyone seemed to assume they had the authority to spank any kid any time if bad behavior happened in the presence.

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  8. Corporal punishment was very widespread when I was growing up, both at home and at school. Rarely implemented in my home but often threatened in descriptive language! And many of my friends were regularly at the receiving end of parental spankings, from the spur of the moment 'smack' to the full ritual bare, over the knee beating. The strap was used extensively by the Christian Brothers & lay teachers on a daily basis at school on the hands publicly & casually in class and on the buttocks privately for more serious offences. Always unpleasant but it was so rife that it was simply seen as the collateral damage for boys growing up & learning about life, rules and trying to 'get away with it'. It was often referred to at home to my mild embarrassment by my mother, sisters, uncles, etc with a knowing smile or comment.

    At puberty the topic quite suddenly became sexually charged for me and I have a very specific memory of seeing a cartoon on TV of a mother giving her son a bare bottom spanking (you would never see that on TV now!) which compelled me to seek immediate privacy to complete only my second self induced release. I was still of an age where the strap was a regular although less frequent punishment at school and I know that with my new found interest that I actively transgressed later that week in the certain knowledge that I would somehow 'enjoy' being punished (even if it was by a man). A rude awakening for me ensued as the punishment I engineered was just as painful and unpleasant as those that I received before my revelation. And so was born (for me) the dichotomy of the pleasurable spanking fantasy vs the painful reality, which continues to the present day and which amuses my wife no end!

    My interest remained a fantasy until I finally revealed it to my wife after reading the DWC site - until then I had not had any exposure to DD - remarkable given that my levels of activity and 'research' on the internet ...

    In my case I think it is nurture - some combination of childhood experiences & the hormones of puberty has created a series of neural links which mean I get turned on by the whole topic. However the success has been to turn that interest into a part of our relationship that makes for improved behaviour, increased closeness and a balance of power that is satisfying to both. TB

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    1. I had the Protestant version of your experience, though in my schools the paddle was ubiquitous. Never straps. It is interesting that you actively sought out a spanking thinking you would enjoy it. I think I knew from the moment I discovered the DWC that if it was "real," I definitely would not enjoy it. But, I do experience the dichotomy -- spanking is something I feel like I want even if not pleasurable, then my desire for it instantly changes as soon as she orders one.

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  9. So, it seems going through the comments, the tally looks like opinion is leaning pretty heavily to "nurture". (That WAS this week's topic, right? LOL) Are there any staunch "nature' folks with some argument to back that feeling up?

    One thing I find interesting though is not so much the 'nature/nurture' angle but the different timelines presented. It seems like there's a definite mix between people who developed the fascination very early and those for whom it took some later-in-life stimulus.

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    1. Indeed, you have to squint pretty hard to discern an actual answer to the actual topic in some of these. And, then there are the, "Here's one line addressing your actual topic, and then two paragraphs talking about what I find sexy about dominating or being dominated," for which I believe you have coined the term "nonseXquitur"

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    2. Dan & KD,
      I believe the “nature vs nurture” issue is a false dichotomy. It can be and often is both. People that become spankos have a predisposition (which is a combination of personality traits likely genetically influenced but not genetically determined. Possessing these traits, the environment may provide the crystallization (trigger) that activates them during or after puberty. That crystallization can be something as simple as a picture( that was my personal experience as a 13 or 14 year old seeing a spanking picture in a mainstream mag from the musical “Kiss me Kate” – or it might be something later in life like some have reported on here when first discovering the DWC site. It seems apparent that many people exper