Saturday, June 1, 2019

The Club - Meeting 299 - Be Careful What You Wish For . . .


“This book will teach your partner how to be more dominant. Your partner will learn how to say no to you. She will learn how to train you. She will learn how to punish you and hold you accountable for your actions. She will learn that she can demand whatever she wants from you, despite whatever you might want from her. So beware, my unsuspecting male friend... if you bought this book for her, you might get more than you asked for. You have been warned.” – The Hesitant Mistress

Hello all.  Welcome back to the Disciplinary Couples Club.  Our weekly gathering of men and women who are in, or would like to be in, Domestic Discipline relationships.  I hope you had a good week.  Ours seemed to be a little better than the week before, which may be the best we can hope for after a couple of months that were just exceptionally hard.

The original post from last week included a line about a recent incident in which I was very overtly resistant to something she told me to do, and I followed up with something that was flat-out disobedient.  I said I would deal with it in a separate post, but people started commenting on it so I took it out.  But, I’ll address it now, as it feeds into the subject of this week’s post.  In a nutshell, I had come home tired from a work event, and started watching a movie. It had been a really long, hard week and I was just desperate for some downtime to decompress.  My wife decided in the middle of the movie that I should go to bed.  I resisted, and while I don’t think I ever just said “no,” it is fair to say I did not comply.  She gave in, but instructed me that I was not to have even one drink before coming to bed.  Once she went to bed, I decided to ignore that instruction too and had a nightcap.  So, not a good night at all in terms of being a good little submissive. 

And, therein lies the start of this week’s topic.  It wasn’t just that I disobeyed an order from her.  Rather, the order itself led to so much resentment at that moment in time that I really did start questioning the pros and cons of the entire FLR part of our lifestyle. It kind of felt like the last straw during a week in which the resentment had been building.  It was not just telling me to go to bed early.  It was telling me when to come home from work, then chastising me about being late for dinner, then telling me to go to bed when I was in the middle of a movie and then trying to keep me from having a drink in my own house when it was not hurting anyone and had no impact on her.  I started thinking about the fact that none of my colleagues are subjected to that kind of control.  They don’t feel guilty about having that third drink at happy hour. They don’t have someone sending them texts that is time to come home.  They don’t have restrictions on things they can do once they get home, and they definitely do not have someone giving them a bed time.   


 So, for the first time in a long time, I asked myself the serious question of whether the whole FLR thing is really for me and, frankly, worth it.  I felt like I was being treated like a child, and I really, really resented it to the point that for that evening I started wondering whether I should just call an end to it.  But, then in the morning, as usual I once again appreciated that she treated me like a child because I was acting like one.  Yeah, I wanted to stay up late because I was wired after a hard week and needed to decompress. But, staying up later was just going to exacerbate the fatigue I was already fighting, especially if staying up involved a few nightcaps.  She was trying to look out for me, even if it did not feel that way at the time.  And, while it’s true that some of my colleagues do probably have the same excessive behaviors I do, who knows that will do to them over time.  Maybe deep down inside they wish they had someone reining them in the way I do.

But, I also think this reflects a basic distinction between DD and FLR for me.  My angst at where we seem to be right now is really all about the FLR and not DD, and it is the former that my resistance was aimed at.  I still have never refused a spanking and, in fact, she gave me a very hard one on Saturday to deal with the week’s bad behavior.  So, I am still very comfortable with the idea of consequences for bad behavior.   

What I am much less comfortable with is trying to stop or prevent behavior that not, in fact, inherently bad.  There are times I feel like it is getting way too close to trying to change an identity that I am, in fact, relatively comfortable with or that it is just removing too much that I find fun or relaxing.  And, that was what was on my mind last night when she tried to impose some controls during a social event even though I was doing nothing more than hanging out with friends of hers who were, if anything, drinking more than I was!  Once again, it all just started feeling like too much.

After the first incident, I wrote a long journal entry to my wife that tried to explore these conflict desires being wanting someone to impose boundaries but also feeling like sometimes those boundaries are just too tight.  As, I pointed out to her, part of my resistance to authority is a result of just never having been subject to any. In my entire life (or at least since my adolescent and teenage years, I have NEVER had anyone impose any controls on things like bed time, curfew, being home in time for dinner or drinking. Most kids are subject to those kinds of controls, and when they don’t comply there is a consequence.   



But, the reality is my parents never imposed those kinds of rules, and the few things they saw as rules were seldom actually enforced.  So, when five decades into this life my starts telling me to go to bed at a certain time, it is something that has never once been a part of my experience.

So, I think part of what is happening is resistance to a change that, yes, I asked for but that is proving more restrictive than I anticipated.  Classic “be careful what you ask for, because you might get it” stuff.  Hence, the quote at the top of this page.  Yet, another part of the dynamic is trying to find the right balance – the balance between moderating excessive behavior, on the one hand, and stifling who I am or making my life less enjoyable or a constant irritation on the other.

I recognize this puts her in a hard position, but I also do think it may be an inevitable part of real leadership, as opposed to Femdom fantasy leadership.  When I was less experienced as a manager, there were times I know I drove people too hard and expected too much.  It took me a while to learn that there really are limits on what you can impose on people or how much you can expect them to be something they are not.  Once I learned to lighten up a little, things worked better and the performance of the whole group improved. 

Last week, before I took down the two or three lines that alluded to my disobedience problem, Tomy and Alan posed the following:

Tomy:  “Resisting one's wife is perhaps the most self-defeating behavior I have seen (or done) in a DWC relationship. Everyone has their own reasons and excuses and rationalizations. We men who visit this blog are here becuase we want/need/desire a particular lifestyle experience. Those who actually have a spouse who is on board with it are among a very small percentage of men who long for it. Any act that undermines the woman's authority undermines her confidence and undermines the genuine fulfillment of the dream - OUR dream - that she has stepped into mainly FOR us. I hate to say this. But for any reader who indulges their own resistance at the expense of their wife's efforts to be in charge, to fulfill their dreams, needs to man up, shut up, and grow up. Again, sorry if I ruffle feathers. But I'm talking man to man here.”

Alan: “I agree with you completely that resisting your wife's authority is one of the most self-destructive things one can do. And that is probably particularly the case before she is completely empowered. In fact there is probably a point where you can no longer psychologically resist that authority. I know if I did it today my wife would soundly slap my face and have my pants down and nose in the corner before I could count to three. But for those just starting out maybe there has to be a grace period because for many the difference between a fantasy punishment spanking and a real one can be a staggering experience. With the girlfriend who introduced me to DD I never disobeyed her instructions to go over her lap but did (maybe three times) stop a spanking as it reached that point where I thought I couldn't take any more. This caused a lot of tension with us but she stayed with it and one particularly hard hair brushing I was just about to jump up again and then the thoughts started to form that this was what I wanted and needed and deserved and I was a wimp for not taking my punishment. I just relaxed and let it happen reaching that fulfilled numb zone for the first time. Afterwards my bum was a mess but she was very proud of me (and herself) and so was I. I never resisted her authority after that breakthrough and have never resisted my wife's authority either. But maybe young couples should expect some tension and resistance to authority in the beginning. If a women stays firm it will pass and for me at least once it has passed it doesn't come up again. Female authority once established is forever.”

But, while these two quotes emphasize the danger of undermining authority, Alan also had this to say, which I think reflects the real-life trade-offs I am thinking through in balancing FLR in a way that is actually workable in the context of our particular relationship.  He said, “I like Danielle’s Venn diagram /continuum metaphor for distinguishing FLR from DD. But to some extent we tend to complicate the distinction. I am in a DD and have been for many years. Our understanding is that she has unquestioned authority to discipline and punish me for violation of her rules particularly with respect to things that could harm or impinge our relationship. Her authority is unlimited in the sense she can punish anywhere for any reason she thinks necessary. However, in practice we have carved out behaviors that threaten to damage the relationship, display immaturity, arrogance or deliberate disobedience. She is not H.O.H, for that matter, either am I. We pursue an equal relationship in which she is in charge of many things (including my discipline) and I am in charge of many other things. We try to split that down the middle as much as practical leaning to our respective strengths as a couple. In an FLR by contrast there is a clear leader, much less consensus about roles and a clear hierarchy in the relationship in terms of who call the shots. I see the differences as primarily matters of style and personality, with both working with different couples. I also imagine that some DD's evolve into FLR's as partners get to know themselves and each other. The power to discipline is powerful and just practicing it may bring out submissiveness in some males and dominance in some females not earlier present. That is one of the enormous advantages of F/M relationships. They are dynamic and change as you live them.”

I do believe these relationships are dynamic, and while Alan brought up DD evolving into FLR, I wonder whether it also sometimes works in reverse.  For those men who are not natural submissives or for whom being bossed around is not necessarily erotic (at least not all the time), can experimenting with FLR prove to be too much? Should they have taken the warning at the top of the page to heart?  And, for the women, can the responsibility of exercising real leadership, of getting the balance between control and micro-management right prove to be harder than anticipated?  Has anyone had an experience in which it did just become too much, to the point that you reevaluated either whether you wanted to continue or at least whether the balance needed some adjustment?

I do realize, by  the way, that just raising this will almost certainly bring out the, “Just submit or you are being a bad husband and just playing a game,” comments.  All I can say is, too bad.  We are living this in real life and in the context of who we are as concrete individuals with needs and desires, strengths and weaknesses.  I’ll keep living that reality and not someone else’s fantasy.

Have a great week.


106 comments:

  1. One of the ways in which our marriage is DD and not FLR is that Frank has AGREED to be punished for each and every behavior for which I spank him. He has suggested most of them, while i have added some, especially in the last few years. So these are all boundaries that he believes are appropriate. It sounds to me, Dan, that you want the same.
    Elizabeth

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hi Elizabeth. Admittedly and unhelpfully, what I want varies from time to time. For many, many years we had a form of DD close to what you are describing, where we both generally agreed on punishable behavior. But, I have also said that I want something like what Alan describes in the above quote, where she has much more discretion. But, also keep in mind that what is causing the angst right now is not discretion to punish. Spanking me or punishing me for the things discussed in the post would not have resulted in the resistance. It was more about trying to impose boundaries that, at least in the moment, I did not think were reasonable.

      Delete
  2. Hi Dan,
    I really loved what Alan wrote:
    "Her authority is unlimited in the sense she can punish anywhere for any reason she thinks necessary. However, in practice we have carved out behaviors that threaten to damage the relationship, display immaturity, arrogance or deliberate disobedience. She is not H.O.H, for that matter, either am I. We pursue an equal relationship in which she is in charge of many things (including my discipline) and I am in charge of many other things. We try to split that down the middle as much as practical leaning to our respective strengths as a couple."

    I think that is pretty much exactly how my wife and I are and likely will always be. We don't necessarily want an FLR, because we are very much true partners in everything. At the same time, she is unrestricted in what behaviors or attitudes for which she might choose to discipline or punish and I WANT her to flex her muscle in that regard and stretch it into things that she wants and cares about, rather than it being just about me. So in that sense it is a bit more like FLR, since she can and even should punish me for things that I don't necessarily agree with.

    I can certainly see where someone (myself included) might wish for more of an FLR element, and then when getting it find out that it is not quite what they were thinking or wanting. However so far everything that we have explored I have found satisfying, even though I generally don't enjoy some things (such as bristling a bit at any sort of service) in the moment.

    With regard to resistance, for me this part is particularly tricky. I agree that in the overall scheme of things it is self-defeating to offer too much resistance (like resisting to the point of discouraging her). At the same time, for it to have any feeling of reality, I really need it to feel completely imposed. So in other words, I need her to be a very strong dominant, even and especially when I am not always a very good submissive.

    Thankfully, my wife is very, very emotionally strong, she kind of gets a kick out of the exercise of authority, and we have spent a LOT of time talking about how I feel in the moment, vs. how I feel outside the moment. She understands fully that at the time it happens, I certainly don't want to be punished. But also she understands that at every other time, I DO want this, and I will feel frustrated and disappointed as soon as it ends if somehow she didn't take it far enough and let me off too easy.

    For her to walk that fine line of giving me what I desperately need and want yet don't want is a very tall order, yet somehow she manages it with grace and poise. I am certain that sometime she probably won't get it just right (since she is only human), but if and when that happens, I will have to extend grace to her, since it is ME who wants this. However, so far she does it much, much better than I could ever do myself.

    -ZM

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hi ZM. I agree with both you on the Alan quote, and I also agree with your observations on the attraction to *imposed* consequences. I think something that may be getting lost in the noise of my long post though is that the resistance I experienced and displayed was not around punishment. I not only accepted a spanking for the behavior, I brought her the paddles and straps on Saturday and suggested she needed to deal with it.

      The resistance was more along the lines of what you reference about "bristling a bit at any sort of service." I too bristle at that, and my reaction to being pushed to go to bed and about ordering wine at dinner was very similar to that reaction only magnified. It wasn't about being punished as a consequence for bad acts. It was about having autonomy removed and in a context that I felt was over the top or unfair.

      The upshot of this is, of course, that every teenager who has ever been told he can't go to a concert he wants to see or a party his friends are all going to feels his parents are being "unfair." So, I recognize that part of me craves the kind of rules and control I never experienced as a kid, yet there *are* times that the control very well may be unfair or unrealistic. It is really, really a struggle with what I feel I need and then how I feel when I get it.

      Delete
    2. Hi Dan,
      Yes, I understand the distinction. It is not so much the punishment that is difficult sometimes, but rather the loss of control that is at times a bitter pill to swallow.

      I totally relate to the whole teenager thing, and how on some level this is what you need, but then when it happens, you struggle with it. I am pretty much that way with every part of this lifestyle. Every time I think I start to figure out my feelings, I realize just how conflicted I am on most of it!

      -ZM

      Delete
    3. Hi ZM. Glad to hear I'm not alone I'm not alone in my wishy-washy relationship with this. Though, I do agree with Alan that in some sense, being conflicted is verification that it is real.

      Delete
  3. I don't know Dan. Maybe the problem lies in expecting things to be either 'this way' or 'that way.' I think this thing we do is basically a paradox. Perhaps the only thing for it is to accept that, and not try and over think it.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. As I stood there at the sink doing the washing up this morning, I thought of Woody Allen in Annie Hall. “It reminds me of that old joke- you know, a guy walks into a psychiatrist's office and says, hey doc, my brother's crazy! He thinks he's a chicken. Then the doc says, why don't you turn him in? Then the guy says, I would but I need the eggs. I guess that's how I feel about relationships. They're totally crazy, irrational, and absurd, but we keep going through it because we need the eggs.”

      Delete
    2. There is some truth in that. The essence of a paradox is that if it is a real paradox, it basically is not reconcilable through logic.

      Delete
  4. I guess I never thought about the difference between an FLR and a DD relationship. I guess we started out with a DD relationship. We discussed spanking before we got engaged to be married. My then fiance came around to the idea because of what she read about it sounded good. When we were married she set rules and breaking any of the rules would result in a spanking.

    As the years went by I never realized that my wife was taking more control in our relationship,it happened really slow. I would break a rule and she would spank me then make me do corner time and maybe assign me a few extra chores to do. Before I knew it I was doing all the household chores. Then she began making decisions on where to go on vacation then all the financial decisions to where we are today where she makes all the decisions and rules of the house. She will ask my opinion on things but she always has the final say. Just this past week she showed me some paint samples for the living room and asked me what I liked. I look at the samples and showed her my pick and she said it was different from what she liked but she would think about it. Later in the day she told be she was sticking with her choice and I was to go get the paint and start painting the living room this weekend which I did and completed yesterday.

    My wife uses discipline and punishment in our relationship. I get spanked and grounded sometimes and she keeps me in chastity but I don't mind being in a FLR relationship because I don't have to make decisions and worry if I made the right decision. I just have to obey her rules and support her decisions. I've really come to enjoy it and love my wife even more.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I think your last paragraph may sum up the difference between those for whom and FLR works and those where it either doesn't work or proves much more challenging, i.e. do you ultimately feel relieved by having decision-making authority and its associated worry removed, or is that something that breeds resentment and even fears around losing control and autonomy.

      Delete
  5. My comments are predicated on the DD life I work towards not the part DD part kink I have. As such I openly admit I am not expert on FLR mechanics, theoretical or practical and as such my view can be discounted before even read.

    I am very much in the camp that consent and fairness are key. The former is blindingly obvious, even if we give power to punish we give it freely. The latter however is equally important. No way would I allow anything to be imposed simply as a sign of whose in charge or a mood swing. It is either already part of the dynamic and fully understood (like my unplanned smacked bottoms for excessive drinking whilst out) or it has to be rationalised ("please can we go to bed now I am tired" etc.). For me the concept of not being on side with what is or is not prohibited is one I struggle with.

    On a slightly more frivolous note I think disobedience followed by consequences something I would love more of, but I would have to be clear to myself it wasn't planned just to solicit the punishment. That defeats an important object.

    Apologies if this contribution shows a limited understanding of how FLR works for some of you.

    Cheers Good Life Mickey.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hi GLM. I think this all makes sense and points out there is just a lot of disparate things going on in these relationships and the balance gets tricky.

      Delete
    2. Hi GLM. Totally agree about consent and fairness. I struggle with unfairness, even though in every sense I am seeking for her to be a bit unfair with me. But it doesn't mean I like it when it happens!

      As far as consent goes, I agree that consent is key to everything. Like Alan, I have given her blanket consent: "Her authority is unlimited in the sense she can punish anywhere for any reason she thinks necessary."

      But that is in theory and theory and practice don't always perfectly align. Don't forget the second part of his statement, which also rings true for my wife and I: "However, in practice we have carved out behaviors that threaten to damage the relationship, display immaturity, arrogance or deliberate disobedience."

      So while she can punish for anything, any way she wishes, anytime, and anywhere, in practice it is always for things that pretty clearly cross a line that we both are in pretty close agreement on.

      -ZM

      So

      Delete
  6. Dan, you don't really say how much communication happened in this incident. Did you say to your wife, "I really need to decompress with a movie and a drink"? Did she say to you, "I think the best way for you to decompress would be to get a good night's sleep"? It seems like there may have been a lack of communication, and assumptions on both sides. And that is never good in any marriage, whether FLR or not.
    Frank

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Frank, that is a good observation. There definitely was not much communication going on that night.

      Delete
  7. Danielle here:

    Dan, as the main proponent of full spectrum FLR here, and as a woman, I would like to respond to a couple of things. You wrote:

    >>>It had been a really long, hard week and I was just desperate for some downtime to decompress. My wife decided in the middle of the movie that I should go to bed. I resisted, and while I don’t think I ever just said “no,” it is fair to say I did not comply. She gave in, but instructed me that I was not to have even one drink before coming to bed. Once she went to bed, I decided to ignore that instruction too and had a nightcap. So, not a good night at all in terms of being a good little submissive. <<<

    First of all, did your wife tell you to “go to bed” or did she ask you to “come to bed” with her? I can tell you, from a wife’s perspective those are two different things. I have on occasion SENT my husband to bed early as a humbling punishment. But I don’t consider asking him to come to bed WITH ME as a punishment, or as an onerous thing for any wife to ask of her husband. I think I’ve mentioned before that it is a rule in our house that Wayne comes to bed when I go to bed. There are two practical reasons for that. First, in our pre-FLR days, he used to stay up very late indulging in femdom porn. Second, if he wakes me up by coming to bed later, I have trouble getting back to sleep. That is not to say that Wayne can never stay up later, if he has a good reason and he asks permission nicely. But on those occasions, he sleeps either on the couch or in the guestroom.

    As to your wife asking you not to drink, you seem to feel that was unnecessarily bossy. But the thing is, from a wife’s point of view, drinking is potentially worrisome activity when a husband drinks alone. It is worrisome because, unlike having a social drink together with your wife, drinking when she is not drinking is something that can feel isolating for a wife, even when the drinking doesn’t lead to antisocial behavior. I’m not saying that’s an issue for YOUR wife, but it can be an issue for wives. I don’t see that as an FLR issue, but as a basic marital issue.

    Fortunately for me, Wayne isn’t much of a drinker, though we do enjoy having a glass of wine TOGETHER sometimes. We did recently have an issue with marijuana. Now that cannabis use has become mainstream and socially acceptable, Wayne wanted to try it again. He used to use it in his student days but gave it up when he became a responsible adult. I have never liked it. Recently, I caught Wayne sneaking out to the garage for “a toke”. He had obtained some from one of our sons. I paddled Wayne’s bum hard, mainly for being secretive about it. I also told our son I didn’t appreciate his giving marijuana to his father. We then had a long discussion about it, and Wayne agreed that marijuana is not something that he needs. We also agreed that if he does feel a need to reopen the discussion in the future he will do so without going behind my back.

    You also seem to think that the following behaviors are not issues for couples who aren’t in FLR’s:
    - coming home late for supper
    - having a third drink at happy hour
    - receiving texts from your wife asking you not to stay out late
    If you think those aren’t bones of contention in non-FLR marriages, I think you are fooling yourself. Sure, lots of guys will ignore their wives’ nagging about such behavior, but many will likely have bitter arguments with their wives about it, and in the worst case such disputes can lead to marital breakdown. The only difference between a FLR and a regular marriage is that a wife in a FLR has more leverage to curb behaviors she doesn’t like.

    Now, if a husband doesn’t want to be ruled by his wife, if it makes him feel “resentful”, FLR probably isn’t a good fit for the couple. Resentment isn’t healthy, and the day Wayne tells me that he feels more resentment than gratitude for the way I exercise my authority, I will be the first to suggest putting FLR on hold.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. -- "If a husband doesn’t want to be ruled by his wife, if it makes him feel “resentful”, FLR probably isn’t a good fit for the couple." As I've discussed, for years we were in a DD relationship that had a little bit of FLR, but not much. It has only been a year or two of experimenting with a broader power exchange. Right now, there seems to be a gap between "wanting" to explore the FLR, while recognizing that it does, in fact, result in resentment in certain situations. Because it is new, it is hard to say whether the resentment is because, as I pointed out, I am just not used to accepting someone else's direction where personal behavior is concerned and it is causing temporary resentment. Or, is the resentment going to stay over time and, thus, is an indication that a deeper power exchange just won't work for me. We'll see.

      -- Great point that getting pissed about something that feels like nagging is hardly confined to FLRs. It is blindingly obvious, yet I kind of did lose sight of that.

      -- Drinking alone: I don't know whether she finds instances of drinking without her isolating, but to some extent that can be a self-imposed form of isolation. There has always been a bit of a mismatch between the two of us when it comes to both how much we drink and collateral things like how long we want to stay at parties. But, if you look across our social set, I think it is the case that I am probably closer to the average than she is. In other words, she drinks less and/or checks out earlier from social engagements than I do, but also than the others in the group. So, when she imposes restrictions on me in that area, I think it is true that she is imposing her norm, not about curbing my excesses. Now, that is not true all the time. There definitely are times my behavior is excessive. But, there are times that I'm not doing things that are harmful to myself or anyone else, and I'm not sure her idiosyncratic norm should be controlling. BTW, I get Wayne wanting to try the pot thing again. I've thought about that myself, though I then remember that when I did it in college, I never really liked it that much.

      -- It was more telling me to go to bed. She can sleep through a hurricane, so me waking her up when I come to bed isn't much of a problem.

      Delete
  8. Hi Dan,
    Firstly I think the kind of resistance you are feeling may be a sign that your FLR is working and you are reacting to restrictions on your freedom. Assuming you really want an FLR that is not a bad thing and will pass as you submit more and more to her orders. In both my relationships every time the screws were tightened on me I went through a temporary rebellion and that is natural. But I also come back to a precept I first encountered from the DWC and that was that in a consensual relationship both parties should agree beforehand that a behavior is forbidden and will be punished. Only if both agree will there be real behavior modification. So if you don't want those restrictions on bedtime or that late nightcap it should not be on the list of things she punishes you for. But if you agreed to it previously, you deserved whatever punishment she administered. I admit this can get tricky because disciplinary authority really includes the right to spank anything for any reason she fells sufficient -and she gets to interpret the behavior. I doubt there is not a man in a long time DD who has not been punished when he thought it unfair. But that is just part of the deal and will happen from time to time. Even when a wife punishes unfairly or seems to it (assuming abuse it not occurring), it is almost always an act of love and concern. Discipline and spanking are acts of love in a consensual adult relationship and it’s hard to go very wrong as long as it remains a loving relationship
    Alan

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hi Alan, I agree with all this. My only caveat is, as I said to ZM above, I need to keep front and center the distinction in my reactions between being punished after the behavior and her efforts to manage or stop the behavior as it is happening. The former does not really cause me any resentment, and I actually initiated being punished in this case. The resentment was all at being controlled in the moment. It was really the laying down of a "rule" or being subjected to an "order" in the moment as I was doing something that I thought I should have the freedom to do. I do think, however, that Danielle's observation that feeling nagged about things like staying too late at a happy hour, being lectured about being late to dinner, etc. is hardly confined to FLR relationships is something I really, really need to think about in terms of my reaction and to the overall "lesson" in all this. In this case, we had a tiff over behavior that causes conflict in lots of marriages and that ends up with resentment on *both* sides. When it was over, she spanked me two days later, and we went out for dinner and talked about things. We moved on fairly quickly, which may or may not have happened as quickly in a non-DD relationship.

      Delete
  9. This is Elizabeth. Frank and I had a long talk about our relationship and the female-led elements of it. He loves them because they are sexualized. He gets turned on by my boss in bossiness, and I usually include a sexual element in my domination, such as having him remove his clothes to do chores. He said that he is not really into flr, and if it wasn't sexualized that he might feel the same resentment that Dan feels. I find this quite fascinating, and I do agree that most of the female-led things that we do have a sexual component to them. So that's what works for us. And that makes sense for somebody who has been a spanko all of his life and a spanking porn addict. I really have no desire to impose my female authority in areas where we can't sexualize it. If there are any! So that is a huge component for us. DD is sexual for Frank, and female-led is sexual for Frank. When we started DD, it wasn't sexual at all for me. But I have in recent years begun to feel that the power and authority invested in me does have a sexual component. For me, I mean. Which is what led to our very unequal performance of oral sex. And he doesn't resent that either because it turns him on to be "forced" to give without receiving!
    I did ask him if he could think of a time when he resented being punished . He said one did not immediately come to mind. But he would think about it and maybe write an entry later.
    We haven't had to back off from female-led activities , because we have gone into them slowly and carefully, I believe.
    Elizabeth

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Elizabeth, I hope you won’t take it as an insult if I observe that you and Frank have a lot in common with me and Wayne, even though you two aren’t officially into FLR. Frank has so much in common with Wayne from what I have read. He has been a spanko his whole life and has had a spanking porn addiction. He is turned on by your bossiness. Although he says he “is not really into FLR”, he is turned on by being made to do housework when you sexualize it. The crux is in your following words:

      >>>I really have no desire to impose my female authority in areas where we can't sexualize it. If there are any! So that is a huge component for us. DD is sexual for Frank, and female-led is sexual for Frank<<<<

      My experience is that all aspects of FLR can easily be sexualized for a man who is turned on by female dominance. An “unfair” distribution of oral sex—where the husband is “forced” to give without receiving—is a short step from an “unfair” distribution of household labor. You have discovered that one way to sexualize housework is to order Frank to do it naked. The CFNM kink has great erotic charge for Wayne too. Another method I have discovered is to back up my commands with spanking threats. I’m not sure why this works, but I have noticed that if I say something like “This place had better be spotless when I get back or you won't sit comfortably for a week”, the place will be spotless. I don’t even have to follow through on the threat. He does as he is told because he is erotically enthralled by manifestations of my power.

      Anyway, I’m not trying to sell you on going further down the path towards greater FLR. Your situation is very different than ours because, unlike Frank, Wayne is now a househusband and I go out to work (part time). You couldn’t reasonably be as unfair as I am. But the other ingredient you do possess for FLR is that you have started to get sexual feelings from the exercise of power yourself. That’s what happened to me. When we first embarked on FLR, I didn’t think I had sexual feelings about it, but I discovered I did, or maybe I acquired an erotic taste for it. Oh, and for some reason, Wayne gets even more turned on by my domination when he knows that I get erotic pleasure from it too.

      By the way, Elizabeth, have you discovered foot massages yet? I love ending the day lying in bed having my feet massaged by my husband who is kneeling at the foot of the bed. It’s not quite oral sex, but it comes pretty close! ;-)

      Danielle

      Delete
    2. Yes, Danielle, most nights he starts with a foot massage and then is told to work his way up!
      Elizabeth

      Delete
    3. Danielle,
      I agree that our husbands are similar. One way they are different is that Frank is NOT turned on purely by female dominance. In fact he has a tendency to avoid dominant females, and I do not act dominant in public most of the time.
      For Frank there must be a sexual component to the dominance or it is not erotic for him. Housework is the best example. If I just ordered him to clean the toilets, he would resent it. But ordering him to do it naked, and promising punishment if it is not done well and a sexual reward if it is done well ... that will get him scrubbing the toilet double quick! So I always tie something sexual (and spanking is inherently sexual to him) to any female-led activity.
      Dan has mentioned on a number of occasions that he thinks Frank and I are more FLR than we like to admit. But there is one place where I think we are distinctly DD and not FLR: the wife's right to punish "anywhere, any time, for any reason." Neither Frank nor I believe in that AT ALL! Frank is extremely private and against public displays of authority (a new definition of PDA?), so that means "anywhere" is definitely out. He was clear about that from his very first email.
      More importantly, we don't subscribe to "for any reason." Our DD is not just consensual as a concept. Each behavior for which I punish is consensual: we have discussed each and every offense before it becomes "spankable." In the beginning we even assigned specifics to each offense in four categories: number of swats, implement, position, and stage of undress. So it was very regimented. As we proceeded and trust grew and my preferences developed, we relaxed those stipulations. But I do NOT have the authority to spank for any reason. Which makes us DD and not FLR in our eyes. If a behavior occurs which is not currently a spanking offense, we discuss it and decide TOGETHER to make it spankable. Ironically, it is almost always Frank who suggests new behaviors!
      I agree with Danielle's Venn Diagram description. I would say that there are three overlapping circles for us: DD, FLR, and sexual activity. All of our FLR is directly sexual, but not all of our DD is (in the sense that I never allow Frank release after a spanking. But in another sense, all DD is sexual because he always gets turned on by it). Our sexual activity can be DD, FLR, both, or neither.
      I like hearing that there are other couples on here who say they are not FLR, and that they divide decision-making authority based on the talents and agreed-upon roles of each spouse. That includes faith-based roles for us.
      I personally see no conflict between greeting my husband home from work like a 50s wife ... and then ordering him to strip naked for a spanking while I stay in my demure dress. I think the 50s wife always had more than one use for that wooden spoon that was constantly in hand .. and when my big strong macho man acts like a naughty little boy he deserves to be treated like one! That's our DD (not FLR).
      Maybe some of these distinctions help you, Dan!
      Elizabeth

      Delete
    4. Hi Elizabeth,
      I love your description of sexualizing activities and your perfect housework example. I am exactly the same way. If my wife wants me to do some task around the house and not resent it, her smart move is to make it a bit kinky in some way!

      Also, I think you are spot on with your distinction about you being absolutely DD and not FLR in terms of what constitutes a punishable offense.

      Interestingly, I would say we do not really have an FLR in any other aspect other than this one (at least right now). We are definately much more DD than FLR, but she decides the when, where, how, and "for what" of punishments, so that is kind of our one foray into FLR. Having said that, at least until now all punishments have taken place at home or other very private places (hotel rooms, for example), so the "where" part doesn't currently mean much.

      -ZM

      Delete
  10. I used tp participate in the beginning when the site was essentially DD. I only periodically check in as the site has trended toward FLR. I appreciate those husbands who feel the need for that type of relationship. I also appreciate the honesty and straight forwardness of Elizabeth and Danielle. Very smart ladies.
    I could never be in a FLR. I'm a dominate Alpha who got into DD for one reason, to correct bad habits and behavior that I didn't recognize were ruining a really good marriage until my retirement.. My work as a business owner and CEO required traveling weekly and spending little time at home. My wife , when we first married, was initially shy and submissive, but after years of doing her own thing including the responsibilities of raising kids, running the household, and playing golf, tennis and cards with her girlfriends -- over the years she became strong, competitive, and her own ideas on things. When I retired our two lifestyles merged in a 24/7 relationship. Things weren't going well. I had to adjust, and improve my habits and behaviors or we were headed for trouble. I initiated the discussion of DD with certain condition precedents. We established my behaviors that needed improvement and mutually agreed to them. If I violated any of them my wife could spank me and I would not resist. No spankings unless rules were violated. New rules suggested by either party needed mutual agreement to add/subtract or change. I had no intention of consenting to more wifely power than that. Otherwise I ran the show. Spanking was the only discipline in our agreement. Spankings straightened me out as a kid and I assumed they would work for my wife as they did for my parents. My wife liked the idea, was now strong enough to discipline me as needed, and we commenced DD. It did not take me long to correct most bad behaviors after the spankings started. After 20 + years I still have a few habits that still require a spanking, but very few. I rarely am spanked any more because i have corrected my bad behaviors for the most part. Our marriage and intimacy have improved and we both like the results. My wife's power is limited to spankings for rule violations only, otherwise I do as I please. My wife has the same freedoms as I. DD in our situation is to maintain peace and harmony in our relationship.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Is this Fred? I actually was thinking about you as I ruminated in this post about the pros and cons of FLR versus DD.

      Delete
  11. This is Elizabeth's Frank. I have learned in 12-step that resentment is a trigger for addiction: we use it to justify our behavior. "If she would give me more sex at home, I wouldn't have to look at porn." Even without addiction, resentment is extremely unhealthy. So, Dan, I would do anything necessary to remove that from your life, including changing your FLR or DD relationship. Resentment is a slow killer ... of ourselves!

    The question was posed about whether us DD husbands are resentful of our wives' authority. The one behavior I have great difficulty with is calling my wife when I am going to be late from work. I totally understand why she needs to know this. She is preparing dinner, and prettying herself up, and excited to see me ... and she deserves to know.

    But when I am in a business meeting at a company where we have discussed not using our cell phones during meetings, it is EXTREMELY embarrassing to have to excuse myself in order to call her to tell her I will be late. Nobody in that meeting thinks I am really taking a bathroom break. They all know! And I feel like a hen-pecked husband, which DD is supposed to counteract.

    Yes, I agreed to call ... and have been paddled many times for not calling. I do not resent the punishment; it's the call itself I resent, or rather the public nature if it. I would rather not call and just take the paddling. But that doesn't fix the dinner being cold or my wife being disappointed. It's an ongoing issue.

    Other than that, I love our DD life! Well-spanked husbands are the best husbands!
    Frank

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Frank, I totally agree resentment is one of the most insidious and destructive emotions we can entertain, in all sorts of contexts.

      Delete
  12. It's funny. I read most of the comments here and as different as they all are, I found myself saying: "Yeah it's the same for me!" The only caveat is that after that nod of agreement came the qualifier of....."when I was in my 20's" or "30's" or "40's", and now finishing out my "50's". A lot of how I feel about this depended a lot on what I wanted at the time.

    I've said it before and I stand by it. This is a mutual agreement and it works in wide, overlapping circles. But to work, there has to be that mutuality. So when it's a question of "be careful what you wish for", just how much regret are we talking? Is it a sexy amount of "oh shit, she's serious, looks like I'm in for it this time ( wry grin)"? Or is it "fine, go ahead and force this issue.....but I'm sleeping in the guest room afterwards and not speaking to you ( pout)" .....Or "I swear if she insists on pushing this, I'm contacting a lawyer tomorrow"? All are examples of regretting the situation but all are different depending on where heads are at.

    So I think it's better to just evaluate it from a personal perspective rather than try to adhere to a goal that may be more fluid than rigid, or just be a goal that is mood-based.

    At this point in my life, I still find aspects of both DD and FLR appealing......but to different degrees and at different times. And I refuse to feel bad about that as if I am short-circuiting my wife's role. Rosa changes her views all of the time. And I'm sure other dominant wives do as well. Does any dominant spouse here do anything they are not in the mood to do? And do those moods sometimes circumvent the issue of "consistency" that a lot of the guys are seeking? Sure they do. But that's life and the right of an individual to live how they want. Same with me. I want what I want when I want it and I don't want certain things at times when i don't want them, same as Rosa......however, as part of a couple, everything then comes down to how far we are on the same page and how skillfully we compromise on the rest.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. KD, I agree with pretty well everything you say here. I think I do a pretty good job "managing" my husband. But I realize that he is a totally unique individual and that my methods and strategies probably wouldn't work with any other guy here. My husband and I have adapted to one another, and our adaptations have required compromises on both sides. It may look like Wayne has to make more compromises than I do because of our FLR dynamic. But in reality, I am the one who had to change the most to make our marriage work. I think Wayne understands that too, and that awareness probably makes him more flexible than some guys who want to dominated in this way but not that way or want to be dominated exactly "this much" but will become resentful if their wife oversteps a certain line. Not that Wayne and I never have problems, FLR-related and otherwise. We do. But we communicate to work them out, and I feel empowered because I feel that with Wayne I have a fairly generous margin of error in exercising the authority he has consented to give me. I guess the most basic question one could ask about Wayne and me is why we have decided to have a 24/7 power exchange rather than just limiting our relationship to DD with some erotic FLR play on the side. My only answer is that it works for us, but I can see how it might not work for any other couple.
      Danielle

      Delete
    2. this extended discussion about DD versus FLR has been fascinating.To be candid I did not give much thought to the distinctions before, realizing of course they are different expressions of wifely authority and more life style choices than anything else. But the discussion has really made me think about the differences and I come down hard for DD.The main reason is that it has worked extremely well for me in two relationships and my wife is very happy with it, not wanting full time responsibility and decision making. But at a more fundamental level I reject FLR because it smacks of " female superiority" which is no more acceptable ( or realistic) than male superiority. The reality is that in most of our relationships rough equality is both desired and natural. As individuals we have different strengths and weakness and a marriage partnership helps balance that.I have a real need for discipline externally imposed which she enthusiastically imposes. But she for example is not comfortable managing money or planning travel and so I tend to take the lead in that. If we were in an FLR many of our now successful decisions would become dysfunctional and probably discipline would deteriorate. But by concentrating on our strengths, our commitment grows in strength and reciprocal respect.With discipline she really does make me my best and when I am my best I better serve her.
      Alan

      Delete
    3. Alan, I see FLR differently than you in a couple of ways.

      1. I don’t agree that it is based on “female superiority”, although there are lots of men who fantasize about female superiority. If I had to bet, I would say that female superiority is mainly a product of the male sexual imagination. I don’t know any women (including myself) who believe in female superiority.
      2. I don’t think FLR means that the man has to be stripped of all decision making power. My husband still handles the finances because he is better at it and more interested in it than I am. He handles vehicle purchases and maintenance. He handles major home maintenance issues. For example, when we needed a new roof, he did the research on the businesses providing that service, got quotations from the best ones, and decided which company we should hire. He does, of course, consult me about those things, so I am involved in those decisions as I would expect to be if we didn’t have a FLR. For example, I overruled him on the color of the roof tiles, but he probably would have ceded to my judgment about that even without FLR.

      If FLR truly regressed my husband to a childish state and put all adult responsibilities on my shoulders, I would never have accepted it. I may appear to contradict myself, since I exercise authority over Wayne in ways that do have an adult/ child vibe (as spanking does on a very basic level). We also play with the reversal of traditional gender roles. That has always been sexually exciting for him and has become sexually exciting for me. But if he wasn’t actually a fully independent adult male, every bit my equal, FLR would have no erotic allure.

      Danielle

      Delete
    4. Hi Danielle
      I think we might be entangled in a semantic whirlpool. While you denote your relationship as FLR, your descriptions of it sound a lot like a DD with more than average authority ceded to the wife Similarly I describe our relationship as DD but my wife has enormous authority including the right to decide at any time to send me for her strap or brush if she feels things have gone too far, a rare event today but something that happened a lot in the early years.I have the feeling that if an objective observer viewed both relationships for a while , they might not find much difference other than the fact that I have been "hairbrush trained" longer than Wayne
      Alan
      Alan

      Delete
    5. Danielle,
      If Wayne is on an allowance, he isn't in charge of the finances, even if he does the bookkeeping.
      It seems to me that you make any decision you feel like making and you delegate some tasks to him. So really you are in charge of everything and it's an FLR, right?
      Frank

      Delete
    6. I did a blog post on this very debate: How "FL" do you have to be for what you do to be considered "FLR"? Is it a majority percentage? Is it an all-or-nothing distinction? Can you concede just a few key things that most other egalitarian relationships do not do, and have that make it "FLR"? Is it more about how one wants to view it? Can it be which term one likes better? Does whether or not it's sexual or purely disciplinary mean anything? Does the chewing gum loose its flavor on the bedpost overnight?

      I think of the very basic issue of spanking itself in a vanilla context illustrates the issue. Unless someone is taking turns for fun, and one partner does all the whacking while the other does all the yelping....if someone from the outside world peeked in.......would they not consider the person spanking to be "in charge"? even if they only did it on agreed behavior? Yet for the people doing it, that distinction might be the deciding factor.

      Delete
    7. Frank, I don’t think there is any contradiction between Wayne being on an allowance and having the power to manage our finances the way you probably manage your finances. I should mention that the allowance is a purely consensual form of domination. Wayne and I have joint bank accounts and credit cards. That means that the only thing stopping him from buying whatever he damn well pleases (within our joint credit limit) is his respect for the authority he has ceded to me. We don’t have the kind of hard financial domination some couples apparently practice, e.g. denying him access to debit and credit cards to make him truly dependent on me.

      Why do I have Wayne on an allowance? First of all, there is a practical benefit for me. Because we have to live within our means as a couple, we have to stick to a budget for discretionary spending. Since his allowance is set by me, and my “allowance” is also set by me, I can be unfair about it. And, I’ll be honest, I AM unfair about it. That brings me to the second benefit. The unfairness of financial domination is a kink that gives Wayne masochistic erotic pleasure, just like spankings or domestic servitude or one-sided oral sex. I guess men who want DD without FLR might find my husband strange in that regard, but I don’t find it any stranger for him to be turned on by having me set his allowance than to be turned on by being spanked.
      Danielle

      Delete
    8. Allan, you may be right that our disagreement over the term FLR is purely semantic, but I don’t think so. If the power exchange I had with my husband gave me the power to spank him whenever I saw fit, but no power beyond that, I wouldn’t consider that a true FLR. And personally, I wouldn’t find it as satisfying as a FLR. If my husband said, “You can spank me when I behave badly, but don’t give yourself illusions about being the boss of me,” I would probably be annoyed. I would feel as though I was my husband’s “spanking maid.”

      KD, you raise excellent questions about what makes a FLR truly FL. I don’t think there are any set answers. But a thought experiment occurs to me. Suppose that I was a man and Wayne was a woman. I figure that most women who are feminist to any degree would see my behavior as outrageously patriarchal. Some might even come after me with pitchforks. ;-)
      FLR in my mind is gender reversed consensual patriarchy.
      Danielle

      Delete
    9. KD: Wow, for once you and I agree on pretty much everything in your comment. :-) I especially like the way you lay out levels of resentment, including one that does indeed have a sexy and erotic component.

      And, I'm having a similar experience as you reading all the comments this week -- I find myself agreeing to so many things, even though there are lots of different perspectives going on.

      Delete
    10. Alan said: "But at a more fundamental level I reject FLR because it smacks of " female superiority" which is no more acceptable ( or realistic) than male superiority. The reality is that in most of our relationships rough equality is both desired and natural." I agree for the most part, but with an emphasis on "roughly." I had a work relationship a few years ago where I had a colleague that I was actually friend with outside of work, but we would from time to time have these knock down drag out fights about how to approach certain work tasks. And, the problem was, there was no tie-breaker and no hierarchy that allowed one of us to trump the other. It was really classic irresistible force meets immovable object type stuff. It taught me the lesson that relationships of really true equality can be very problematic. I also think that in the marriage relationship context, these things tend to get worked out not because the parties are equal, but because they are unequal in *different ways,* both in terms of what they care about and how much. A kind of natural hierarchy develops around particular issues.

      Danielle said: "I figure that most women who are feminist to any degree would see my behavior as outrageously patriarchal. Some might even come after me with pitchforks. ;-) FLR in my mind is gender reversed consensual patriarchy." I absolutely love that!

      Delete
    11. Dan: "for once"? I've always felt our differences were subtle compared with our similarities.

      Yes, when it comes to DD desires time does matter. Age does matter. I probably was much more of a 'purist' decades ago. Now? Trying to be pure is just too much work......and I'm retired!

      Danielle: You should cruise a few of the linked blogs Dan and I have. A lot feature M/f dynamics. You'd be surprised at how the same things we do can result in a negative visceral reaction just due to gender. It sometimes requires me to step back and think about the sub as a person first and a female second. Then I just see the similarities to how I feel and not some patriarchal subjugation. (Some of the ladies doing this have a hard time getting their men to be as dominant as they'd like because the guys don't want to be "that guy".)

      Delete
  13. Frank, I don’t see why you find it embarrassing to excuse yourself from a meeting to let your wife know you will be late for supper. I don’t think that makes you “henpecked”. Back when I used to do most of the cooking in our house, I found it extremely annoying not to know when Wayne was going to be late for supper because timing is important in preparing certain meals. Do you have any idea how frustrating it is to prepare something that requires careful timing, only to have to reheat it in the microwave later? Now that Wayne does the cooking, I always let him know if I am going to be later than I said. That does nothing to diminish the fact that I wear the pants in our house.
    Danielle

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Yeah, maybe I need to rethink it.
      Frank

      Delete
  14. My wife usually doesn't do any cooking, that's my job but I always let her know if I will be late and she always lets me know if she will be late even though she wears the pants in the family. It's just common courtesy.

    ReplyDelete
  15. Dan- I can appreciate how you’re feeling about finding the balance between her going too far and then imposing things on you that aren’t “FAIR”. My comment doesn’t weigh in on where that line should be, I have a simpler comment to make.

    I’ll come back to “fairness” aspect in a second. First, reading about your “movie encounter” I felt like I was reading my own story. I’ve had that exact same experience w/ her ultimately saying “just go to bed”. So I totally get how you’re conflicted that at it’s core you’ve looked to DD/FLR as a way for your wife to help you to be behaving better…. NOT looking to her to train you to act the way she would. After a tough week given her personality she’d go to bed….but the way you’re wired you unwind the way you did, watching a movie with a few cocktails. You no doubt thought, maybe even said to her “WHAT THE HELL DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE!!!! I’m home, I’m not hurting anyone so why shouldn’t I be able to unwind the way you choose. When you look at it that way, sure to an extent you’re probably right. However….. part of our goal of “behaving better” also means making better choices for ourselves AND how those choices impact others. It’s not going to shock anyone here that guys like us are in the situation we’re in, needing what we need from our wives, because we’re all a bit self indulgent. If we’re honest w/ ourselves the vast majority of times when we look back at a situation like this after the fact, we end up conceding that what our wives were saying, more often than not , was the right call. So while watching a movie and drinking isn’t necessarily a “bad” thing…in retrospect you probably also recognize that going to bed, getting caught up on sleep and waking up feeling better rather than sluggish (aka hungover) and arguably a little grumpy which she’d have to deal with while we still blame on the week you had. While not as fun in the moment, her idea to go to bed would definitely have been the BETTER choice.

    So to stick w/ your analogy comparing this dynamic to the teenager not allowed to go to the concert or party seeing it as “unfair”. We as adults recognize there’s a big difference between something being UNFAIR versus simply just not being what you want to be able to do. The reason why the teenager isn’t allowed to go to the concert or party is because the parent feels/knows it’s not in the teen’s best interest to be there. They know there will be underage drinking/drugs and is just a venue that likely things can go badly so the kid is better off not being there. So the parent assessing the situation and knowing what’s the better course of action and mandating what the kid should/can do or not do is to help them. Unfair would be a parent saying that the teen is never allowed to go to an party or concert ever…no matter when it is, where it is, who will be there etc etc. This wasn’t your wife’s first rodeo with you having the week you had and dealing with it the way you were. She knew it would be better for you to go to bed and don’t kid yourself she also knew how your plan of attack would play including her having to deal w/ the ramifications of how you then feel the next day.

    I want to be really clear….I’m not making any judgments because I’m in exactly the same boat you are. I’m just putting out there, are your recent feelings being driven by the fact that things have advanced to the point of getting very very real between you 2 and the guidance, constraints, instructions that you have wanted and need just feel very different in reality. Of course it’s uncomfortable and you don’t like it! Butttttttt given some self reflection…..you might acknowledge its still exactly what you need.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hi Darren. A lot of wisdom here, and I love this line: "You’ve looked to DD/FLR as a way for your wife to help you to be behaving better…. NOT looking to her to train you to act the way she would." That may be the crux of the balancing act at issue.

      I don't deny at all that often I feel I am in the right in the middle of an argument, and then a day or two later figure out that probably was, at best, less clear than it seemed. And, it is undoubtedly the case that getting a good night's sleep is better than not. Where I disagree a bit is with the idea that she would be dealing with ramifications the next day. Generally, it is pretty typical for me to get only a few hours of sleep and, while I feel bad (I have chronic insomnia but am not one of those rare people who just don't need much sleep), I generally perform and act about the same as usual. It's probably one reason I'm not that great at self-moderating.

      Delete
    2. It's amazing how sometimes when you're in the throws of something you can miss the obvious. Dan, I've said before how similar our situation is both in terms of our personalities/behaviors as well as the circumstance our professional lives put us in; extensive travel and a lot of client entertainment on the road as well as w local clients. That’s probably why the feelings you’re having in this topic at least really resonate w/ me.

      People who don't do client entertaining just see the expensive restaurants, big expense accounts and often don't realize it's WORK!!! So a very similar iteration to your "movie", at times after a night of having to be "on" for clients or having traveled for the week and headed home, I'll get off the train and walk across the street to one of my usual spots, have my nightcap(s) and THEN call the Uber. When my wife gets upset by that I have the same reaction you did, WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE!!! I’m a grown adult, I work hard , I’m under constant stressed if I chose to unwind like this I should have every right to. Then Elizabeth’s comment below made a light go on!!!! The obvious option I’ve been missing is simply tweeking how my wife and I look at and address something like this. Instead of her getting mad/upset by it….and conversely I’m not also then made to feel like I’ve done something wrong, when from my perspective I haven’t (hence the concern of being unfair and the potential resentment)….I think the answer can be how we look at and address things that fall in this potentially “new category” of “I should have every right to do this if I want….even if you don’t like it or agree w/ it”. Now instead of trying to eliminate the behavior, it gets turned more into…..“OK, yes you have the right to do that even when you know I don’t agree w/ it so you haven’t disobeyed me or broken any rule HOWEVER we are going to agree w/ the obvious that these are in fact bad choices…so they will have a cost associated w/ them”. That changes it from “you’re not allowed” to … “we’ve both agreed it’s not the best decision (do I REALLY need a nightcap after having been out?....and yes in retrospect I often admit to myself, that was STUPID) but it’s totally up to you”. As such, you know going into it there will be the PARTICULARLY bad spanking AS WELL AS identifying a couple additional punishments that are equally painful or worse, that go along w/ these situations. For me an example of one of those punishments my be something like knowing the next possible night (kids are sent out for an errand and later told Dad wasn’t feeling well when he got home) I’ll have to come home right from work (early, not working late)…report to her, get the spanking I have coming and then the proverbial “sent to your room w/ no dinner”…having to immediately get in bed and stay there for the nite, no reading, no TV, no electronics etc like when you were a child (after all I can admit I made the childish self indulgent decision). So the next time you want to do something like that, there’s no longer the concern that she’s going to be mad that you again intentionally disobeyed her and it also eliminates the feeling of being conflicted simply doing what you feel you should be able to do.…. however, you know that YOU are making the decision of weather that last drink is worth the cost. Hell, sometimes given the circumstance the answer might be a resounding YES, it will be worth it and in that situation you’re not intentionally “bratting”…..but chances are there will be more times when I’d figure…..”you know what, I’m just going home”. Of course I completely appreciate this isn’t anything new or ground

      Delete
    3. sorry for being so verbose.....but to finish....
      Of course I completely appreciate this isn’t anything new or ground braking, wow go figure the concept of actions and consequences…lol. There’s just something (for me at least) about the nuancing of you’re not being “bad”, you haven’t broken any rules but the whole reason I’ve needed, had to practically beg her to incorporate DD into our relationship and then for her to be so kind and generous to acquiesce and do things she didn’t initially want to have to be doing , is precisely because I knew at times I make bad choices….so in those times when I’m left to my own devises I know there’s still going to be accountability for making bad decisions….even when I have every right to. So to close out this sentiment it only seems right to stick w/ the booz analogy. A grown adult has every right to drink as much as they want……but when you use bad judgment and get loaded, you pay the price for the decisions you had every right to make of having those last few drinks…. w/ a painful hangover. Now her paddle and add-on punishment will become the proverbial hangover…. LOL

      Delete
    4. Of all the conversation so far this is true:
      "People who don't do client entertaining just see the expensive restaurants, big expense accounts and often don't realize it's WORK!!!"

      Delete
    5. Hi Darren, I pretty much agree with the entirety of the first post. It definitely tracks my feelings from the last few weeks. The difficulty, of course, is I DID, in fact, ask her to set tighter boundaries and try to stop the bad behavior before it gets really bad. But, as I the quote at the top says, sometimes you don't really know what you are asking for until you try it.

      Delete
    6. This commercial pretty much sums up the "fun" world of business travel and entertaining: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLJJuAAs9Us

      Delete
  16. This is Elizabeth. I think I have come across one key difference between DD and FLR that seems rather obvious but I had not thought of before: DD virtually always occurs AFTER the misbehavior, while FLR often occurs before the misbehavior or during it (and also can have a DD component afterwards).

    For instance, if Frank and I are at a party and I see him getting his third drink when we have agreed he can only have two: If I do nothing in the moment and wait until we get home and then paddle him -- or just put it on my list for our Friday punishment session -- then that is clearly DD. But if I walk up to him and take the third drink out of his hand -- or order him to discard it -- that is clearly FLR. Or if I spank Frank before the party to remind him of the two-drink limit, that to me is more FLR than DD.

    In Dan's case, Anne ordered him to go to bed and to not have a nightcap. Clearly FLR. If she had said, "Dan, I am going to bed and I think you should come with me. You know we have agreed that you are not to stay up late or drink alone or late at night. If you choose to do so, I will spank you in the morning" ... That would be DD, right?

    So the DD wife may allow the miscreant to misbehave in the moment -- it is his choice to suffer the consequences later. While the FLR wife may be more likely to step in and halt the behavior, or deal with it ahead of time.
    Elizabeth

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Another example: Before DD, I used to nag Frank about his socks on the floor, or pick them up myself and feel resentful. After we first developed our DD routine, I would say nothing and pick up the socks myself and add "socks on the floor" to my Friday list and whip his ass for it. But that was not completely satisfying for me because I was still picking up the darn socks! Then I added a bit of FLR intervention: "Get your *!#*! socks off the floor and put them on your Friday list!" Now I think I am back to DD with a sense of humor: "Frank, dear, every hour your socks lie on the floor I am adding another 10 swats to Friday. Your choice to pick them up, but if I were you..." The last approach is the best for both of us. He usually scurries to obey with a "Sorry, Ma'am." My point is that I give him the choice to do as we agreed or to be punished, and that is clearly DD.

      Delete
    2. While in the end these are all just labels, I don't know whether timing is part of a defining difference between DD and FLR. It's probably a part of it, though I see it more as an effect or an attribute of another factor. I really see the key thing that distinguishes an FLR from DD as the pervasiveness of control over decision making. To me, the control element is key and it involves both depth and breadth. First, is one partner clearly at the top of the decision-making hierarchy? Second, in how many areas of the relationship does she have that authority? To take your drinking example, I think it could fall into the FLR or DD camp depending on how much control she has over his personal actions and habits. Does she have the right to set the number of drinks, or does it have to be agreed upon?

      But, it's not at all a distinct line, nor does it need to be. And, there is a pretty big element of the of the Justice Potter Stewart "I know it when I see it" test for obscenity.

      Delete
    3. This is Elizabeth. A couple of answers:
      Is one partner clearly at the top of the decision-making hierarchy? NO
      In how many areas does she have that authority? We have mutually agreed on the behaviors for which I punish, and that's it.
      Does she have the right to set the number of drinks or is it agreed upon? We agreed to use the recommended limit of two drinks for someone who probably will be driving home (as I do not like driving at night).
      Justice Potter says "DD."
      Elizabeth

      Delete
  17. At the risk of beating a dead horse, I am going to point out that as long as it’s consensual among adults and both find fulfillment it doesn’t matter what we choose to call it. From the discussion thus far it seems clear that one person’s FLR is another’s DD. It’s all good –but we are coming very close to arguing how many angels can fit on the tip of a pin
    Alan

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I don't agree at all that this is just semantics because DD and FLR are clearly not synonyms. DD does not establish gender roles; FLR does. So why not try to figure out the differences? I understand that the differences may be defined differently, but there have to be SOME constant elements:
      A female must be in charge of an FLR; not necessarily so with DD.
      DD involves physical punishment; not necessarily so with FLR.
      What else?
      Elizabeth

      Delete
    2. Wow! What great discussion this week, and it is only Tuesday! FLR, DD, and the infinite shades between them, consent (or who makes the rules), resentment, second-thoughts, and a myriad of other topics are finding their way into the discussion.

      One thing that I am liking and greatly appreciate is that even with all the diverse topics and viewpoints, everyone seems to be respecting each other and is leaving room for different perspectives.

      Regarding the DD and FLR discussion, I think it has been very good and quite insightful so far, and in fact as I read all the different comments, I realize just what a huge amount of gray area exists between DD and FLR. Probably few of us are completely on either side of that in every respect, so we might be more FLR in some way, even if we are DD in most others. At the same time, semantics do definitely come into play in our discussion because what one might consider DD another might consider FLR, and they might both have valid reasons and thinking. So I hope that if we keep discussing this at least we can avoid having a huge argument about semantics. I personally would like to hear more examples of how things work re: DD and FLR in different aspects of different peoples’ relationships, regardless of how they choose to label them.

      -ZM

      Delete
    3. Danielle here again:

      I have to say that I kind of agree with Elizabeth. Though the DD and FLR labels can overlap, I think my marriage is FL in a way hers clearly isn’t.

      Take her example of telling Frank not to exceed 2 drinks, then choosing to spank him the next day for taking a third drink instead of intervening to prevent the third drink. I find that example almost unimaginable given my relationship with Wayne. If I told him his limit was two drinks or one drink or no drinks, he would obey me. End of story.

      I think Dan has put his finger on the reason for that. In a FLR there is “depth and breadth” of control that is absent in basic DD. In our case, the depth and breadth of control is reinforced by a formal agreement. I had almost forgotten this, but when Wayne and I formalized our FLR, we actually had a private ceremony, scripted mainly by Wayne, in which we rededicated our wedding rings and exchanged new vows. In that ceremony, Wayne promised to “love, honor, and OBEY me,” borrowing the vow that brides used to make to their husbands in pre-feminist days.

      I don’t micromanage my husband’s behavior. I like to give him the freedom to flourish as an individual, but when I give him a direct order, he doesn’t disobey. Elizabeth’s comments got me to thinking of the reason for that, and I think I understand. Wayne’s obedience is motivated not by a fear of punishment, but by a sense of honor. He is honoring a vow when he obeys me. I should say that I also have a feeling of responsibility towards him: I feel I have an obligation to use my authority in a way that doesn’t make it ridiculously onerous for my husband to obey me.

      Elizabeth’s story about spanking Frank instead of nagging him for not picking up his socks made me smile. It also revealed a radical difference between Frank’s situation and Wayne’s. I remember how I used to nag my husband and my sons about not picking up after themselves. What amuses me is that I now find MYSELF in the role of the stereotypical patriarchal male. I will kick off my boots or shoes and leave them in the hall for Wayne to put away. I’ll throw my jacket over a chair. I’ll leave my clothes on the bed and drop my panties on the floor for him to pick up. I don’t even do it consciously. It has become an ingrained sense of privilege.

      If Wayne has just spent time cleaning and tidying the house, he can get quite pissy about it, just like an exasperated housewife. That could lead to an exchange like this:

      ME: Are you complaining?

      HIM: No, I’m not complaining. But you don’t like it if I leave MY stuff lying around, so…

      ME: But whose job is it to keep the house tidy?

      HIM: Mine.

      ME: Exactly. And who’s the boss here?

      HIM: You are.

      ME: Good. Do you need a reminder of that?

      A “reminder” is code for a spanking. Wayne will usually answer quickly that he doesn’t need a reminder, putting an end to his complaint. Sometimes he won’t answer right away. I know this means one of two things. Either he feels a bit sullen and resentful or he’s thinking that maybe he would like a spanking. In that case, I generally spank him, not as a punishment but to help him swallow his pride by demonstrating my authority in the way he finds most erotically enthralling.

      Delete
    4. A key difference for us is that Frank is not turned on by being disrespected, and I do not believe in disrespecting my husband. So that is a part of your FLR that we would not engage in. We are much more traditional, I guess.
      Elizabeth

      Delete
    5. Elizabeth, I don't think I "disrespect" my husband. I think we have fun.
      Danielle

      Delete
  18. And now for a slightly not so much DD vs FLR, but still applicable to the talk this week… I had something interesting happen yesterday. It ties into who makes the decision for what is punishable, resentment, looking back at things from a different perspective, and probably several other things. First I will tell the story, and then my (possibly lame) insight I had from it.

    Last Tuesday, my wife punished me mostly for bad attitude and also somewhat for not getting enough things done. At that time, she told me I had better have a cabinet cleaned in our bedroom by this Tuesday, or I would be soundly punished. I can say the condition of the cabinet is beyond ridiculous, and I never should have allowed it to get that way to start with.

    Well, the week was crazy, as is often the case. Last night, I preemptively told her “look, I really need more time” so she said “ok, then just get it done this week.” So in short, she gave a deadline, I missed the deadline, and nothing happened. That sounds like the story of my life with me pushing past boundaries with no consequences.

    Now understand, had she followed through with punishing me and just said “I told you it had better be done or else, so it looks like it is the ‘or else,’” I probably would have felt huge resentment about it, because she knows just how busy I was this week, and it would just seem unfair (and I HATE unfair!!). There is nothing good that might have come from resentment.

    But the fact is, as I look back on it she had every right to punish me, I did (and do) deserve punishment, and I don’t feel good at all about asking her to let it slide. Perspective is everything (and can change everything), as several have mentioned. As I was thinking today, I realized for the first time just how important “framing” can be in DD. Framing is the other side of perspective; it is the process of helping to create perspective or to help put things in a proper perspective.

    Had she punished me even very harshly, but had framed it as being about procrastination, I would have felt no resentment at all. Even though I was very busy this last week, and especially the last few days, there is a 100% chance I could have found an hour to clean out the closet had I really tried. Plus, at the very core, procrastination is the real problem that is the root cause of every other problem I have, and causes untold pain on a never-ending day-by-day basis.

    Anyway, just my $.02,

    -ZM

    ReplyDelete
  19. -ZM
    This is really fascinating and reminds me just how much responsibility we give our wives for making that decision to punish or defer/delay it. I think we really need to live with the decisions she makes. Your observations on perspective are also fascinating particularly your note that had she punished you for procrastination you would not have resented it. What resonated with me was that in the same situation if I had been punished for disobedience ( which your procrastination also was) I would not have resented it, the reason being that historically obedience has been a problem for me while procrastination usually isn’t. More evidence I think that we are really asking her to help us with things we want to change: procrastination for you and obedience for me. Also about resentment I have felt it after a few spankings but I don't think it is an appropriate emotion even when the spanking was clearly unfair. I say this because a disciplinary wife is spanking out of love and concern and being human she will make mistakes. But I would much rather she spanked me unfairly once in a while than she just ignored me or didn't care enough to spank at all
    Alan

    ReplyDelete
  20. Hi Alan,
    I agree totally about what a large responsibility we entrust our wives with in determining when punishment is needed and/or deserved. I too think that we need to live with whatever decision they might make. In this case, had she already said I was going to be punished, I probably wouldn’t have objected, or at least I hope I wouldn’t have, since that is quite counterproductive and really shakes her confidence. I just front-ran the whole thing when I saw I wasn’t going to get it done, and then felt bad afterwards because I realized that while my schedule has been busy, my poor planning and poor use of time were larger components in not finishing the assigned task.

    Also, I might have overestimated my possible resentment had she punished me for not finishing the task, but I fear that I might have really struggled with the unfairness. I agree of course that resentment is never appropriate or helpful, but I also know myself and my own weaknesses well. And of course you are right that at some point she WILL spank me unfairly. That is to be expected and just comes with the territory.

    Now about us wanting them to help us with things we want to change… I would say that I recognize the problems I have with procrastination, but I am more than a little scared for her to seriously tackle that issue since I might never sit again. I think that it might be something that I know that needs changed, but she probably wants to change it even more than I do.

    -ZM

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hi ZM. We will probably never have an end to discussing times when we hope to get out of getting punished, for very legitimate reasons, then later regret that she didn't carry through. It just seems to be a part of the dynamic for most of us for whom DD is about accountability and fixing bad habits. But, in the case you mention, it sounds like you really did have an excuse. Though, a few weeks ago we kicked around whether what we both needed was a "zero tolerance" policy and really tight boundaries, precisely because we are so crushed with work right now. What the last few weeks have taught me is, there really is a limit on how much I can expect from myself in terms of performance. A couple of weeks ago, I think we both thought I was in danger of truly losing it, because I just couldn't take the work pace, the being away from home more and more, the living on airplanes, and some of the personal losses we were going through. It all just hit a point that I don't think any degree of discipline--internal or externally imposed--could have made me perform better or engage in less self-defeating behavior, because the pressure had hit a point that I just couldn't process anymore through normal means. So, what I am saying is, maybe you need to give yourself a break and recognize there really are times you are doing the best any reasonable person could do, and it really is hard to add even one more task to the list, even if it is one that would take only an hour.

      Delete
    2. Frank has been quite successful in his career but never gone through the life-threatening stress that you describe. Maybe you have choices you aren't seeing.
      Elizabeth

      Delete
    3. And take a moment to listen to your mind and body. There are times when going through that level of stress....and yes i mean that REAL stress not the typical "omg i'm so stressed to from work pressure.... that increasing the discipline is craved and helps...but there are also times when you just need a break from everything......thats OK too.

      Delete
    4. Hi everyone,
      I think that you all had very good points. First off with regard to Dan's input. I think that you are definitely correct that there is a limit to just how much a person can do. I think that is really the underlying principal for what I was saying about framing. If she had simply taken a matter of fact "task not finished so punishment happens" approach that probably wouldn't have been so good in this case, since in the few days leading up to the time the task was due, there simply wasn't more time or more to give. I already felt like I was at the end of my rope. However, if I look at the whole week honestly, there was indeed some less busy time at the beginning, but it isn't in my nature to start a task before the last minute, which is something that probably needs some work.

      Overall, I think the decision of whether to punish or to be lenient also rests heavily on the element of control. Sometimes, there are things that really are out of our control, and it is unfair to punish someone for something that was out of their control. However, if it is something that is in our control, then by all means we should be held fully accountable. And finally there is that gray area of "things that are not really in our control, but if we could get our act together they probably would be in our control." That is probably where the zero tolerance policy applied for a while may be able to significantly change the curve by changing some deeply ingrained behaviors.

      Anyway, I am trying not to be too hard on myself, because overall I think I am doing pretty well, even if there are times that I could up my game a bit.

      As to Elizabeth's comment, which applies to everyone who might experience life-threatening stress, I think it is true that in many situations there may indeed be other choices that aren't being seen or adequately explored. In any case, you are certainly correct that excess stress can be life threatening and whatever stresses someone might be under are generally not worth dying over...

      And for Darren's comment, I agree. Sometimes the hardest thing to do in the midst of super stress is to step back and listen to your mind and body, but that is precisely the time it is most needed.

      -ZM

      Delete
    5. Elizabeth: I do know I have choices. It was a choice I made back at the first of the year that really led me into this current role. I went into it with my eye's largely open, though I don't think that with any larger move we really know what we are taking on until we are in the middle of it. So, I totally agree there are choices, and then there also are commitments. I don't have any desire to be doing this a year from now, but I committed to give it more time than this. John McCain had a wonderful line about when to leave a military engagement. "We leave when we win." I always kind of liked that.

      ZM: I agree for the most part that if we didn't do something and did have time for it, accountability should be there *most* of the time. But, I think what I started realizing a few weeks ago is that you just can't be "on" all the time. There are times that both your mind and, as Darren reminds us, your body need a break. So, while there definitely are times I could be doing something productive instead of something like, say, working on this blog . . . it just isn't reasonable to expect to be doing productive things 18 hours a day every day.

      Delete
    6. Domestic Discipline is a tool designed to improve a marriage by improving the behavior of the spankee and also by reducing conflict. If it is not achieving those goals, its use should be reevaluated.
      While FLR may have other goals, like meeting the power exchange needs of both parties (and is thus more complicated), I would think that it similarly should be reevaluated if it is not improving the marital relationship.
      In Dan's case, the FLR is triggering resentment and conflict. Clearly its use should be reevaluated. Dan does not want Anne deciding how he should decompress. That usually would not be the purview of a spouse, but of course in an FLR the wife can take that or any other authority. And there lies the problem.
      Could DD without FLR help in this situation? Could a spanking help Dan decompress? I don't know. Maybe Dan does.
      Elizabeth

      Delete
  21. Danielle,
    I agree with you that you are not disrespecting your husband. You and your husband are having fun together which is what a relationship should be about. I also think you would not let him disrespect you by disobeying you and you would punish that immediately which Lola and I feel is a must for our FLR to work. I have given her my total trust to make decisions and she takes that seriously. I would undermine that trust if I did not obey her.
    Drew

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Thanks, Drew. You see how FLR can be based on mutual respect because you and your wife are in that situation. But I think it is difficult for people who don’t understand how FLR can be simultaneously playful and serious to see that the husband is not being demeaned. This week’s discussion has made me rethink my previous idea about moving towards more public displays of FLR. If even people involved in DD relationships see my form of FLR as “disrespecting” my husband, I think it unlikely that people in vanilla relationships would understand it at all. Therefore, it is probably better for couples practicing FLR to be secretive about the things they do. Best wishes to you and Lola. I hope you have as much fun as Wayne and I do.
      Danielle

      Delete
    2. Danielle here again:

      Okay, I’m thinking I may have overreacted to Elizabeth’s statement that she doesn’t “disrespect” her husband the way I do mine. For some reason, I felt insulted by that, but I don’t think I should have taken any offense. I think the reason I was overly touchy was that I felt defensive about my husband. This may seem strange after all I have said, but I don’t want people to think he is any less worthy of respect than any other man.

      I also think defensiveness about our men is something Elizabeth and I have in common. In a way, Elizabeth’s effort to draw a clear distinction between DD and FLR relates to that. Elizabeth wants it to be clearly understood that Frank is the HoH at her place, that he “wears the pants”, even though she disciplines him in a manner that adult women traditionally used for naughty little boys. Well, she doesn’t carry the “naughty boy” aspect too far. She has said that she doesn’t spank Frank over her knee because that would feel “too maternal” to her. But Frank himself has reported that when he used to dream about spankings, the spankings were OTK. I can see how spanking Frank over her knee might undermine Elizabeth’s feeling that Frank is the true HoH, and I totally get her reluctance to do that.

      I have pushed my authority further than Elizabeth has, actually making myself the HoH or “wearing the pants” or however you want to put it. I also have no problem taking my husband over my knee to heighten the adult/child vibe when I’m in the mood or I think it will do him good. So I can see why Elizabeth thinks I “disrespect” my husband. But her comment made me feel that I needed to leap to his defense in the eyes of people who reject FLR as demeaning to the man.

      Now that I think about it, the defensiveness Elizabeth and I both feel to varying degrees about the status of our husbands as men is probably a reason many wives reject their husbands’ desire for either DD or FLR. I think that was the case with me when I rejected my husband’s initial request that I spank him many years ago. If memory serves me, one of the thoughts that occurred to me back then was this: “What kind of a man needs his wife to spank him like a mother spanking a naughty little boy?” I feared that my respect for my husband would be irreparably damaged if I did that.

      Fortunately, after we adopted a FLR lifestyle, I discovered that my fear was ungrounded. My respect for my husband is unshaken, although some of the things I do may look like “disrespect” to an on outsider. I guess that is a good argument for not allowing outsiders to be witnesses to FLR behaviors.

      This has been a good discussion. I've learned something about myself from it.

      Delete
    3. Danielle,
      I don't disrespect you for the choices that you and your husband have made regarding DD and FLR.
      My previous comment was saying that Frank and I do not choose to engage in some of the kinkiness that you and Wayne employ that have elements of what I consider humiliation, demeaning, and disrespect. Maybe that last word is a hot button, while the others are less so for you, since you have used them yourself.

      It is all a matter of degree. I am sure many would say that I disrespect my husband by spanking him, or by "making" him do housework naked, or by unequal oral sex. You and Wayne have taken your relationship further than us, and in ways that would make me very uncomfortable. But it's your marriage and it works for you.

      We are very similar in some respects and very different in others. I think I am a strong example of DD, and you are a strong example of FLR. And that is good for others who think there is no line between them. I do see the line and will continue to try to identify where I think it is.
      Elizabeth

      Delete
    4. No problem, Elizabeth. I never felt you were disrespecting me. That is not a concern. And you are, of course, right that the kind of FLR I have incorporates elements of erotic humiliation that, to an outsider, make it look like I disrespect and demean my husband. My point is that the humiliation is erotically playful. It is kink, pure and simple, although it has practical effects that go beyond kink. For example, he has a “domestic servitude” kink that overlaps with a gender role reversal kink. Our FLR plays on those kinks in a way that is deeply sexual. But at the same time it is practical and "real" because it gets the housework done…by him. :-)
      The point I was trying to make is simply that on a deeper level, I DO respect my husband, and I believe he is as worthy of respect as any other man I know. That’s the point I was trying to make.
      Danielle

      Delete
  22. Hello,

    This is my first post and I'm a long time lurker.

    The number #1 thing my wife opposes when I bring up having a spanking relationship is that she is my wife and not my Mother who needs to spank her naughty boy. What should be my response to this?

    ReplyDelete
  23. First CONGRATS for getting off the bench and taking the dive to finally post. It took me a couple years of lurking before I finally did. Out of the group here I'm probably the furthest from the being the expert. But I will say I probably have had one of the toughest times getting my wife to engage with this. It's still a work in progress for us going through ups and downs. Worth sharing, one of the most import and valuable things I have learned from the amazing group here is..... this can be a LONG process. Hang in there...your need isn't going away.

    I can't tell you what the answer is but i am willing to pay it forward and share what I have learned from the group, as well as the DWC that's referenced frequently. "Not wanting to be your Mother" is one of the handful of standard initial push backs from wives who have gotten blindsided by their long term husbands w this need. I'd suggest you acknowledge her concern and AGREE WITH HER! Make clear that's not what you want either. You're asking for her help as your WIFE. Assuming you're coming to this from a genuine place rather than just having a spank fetish...... explain to her that what you want from this, your goal, is to improve your behavior to become the best you can be, which includes being a better husband to her. Acknowledge you get that this can be a bit confusing and off putting for her but you can't help how you're wired.... so for whatever reason discipline and punishment is what you respond to. Make sure she knows that it was because of the immense amount of trust and love you have for her that you were finally able to open up, run the risk of humiliating yourself and exposing yourself, sharing this (I'm assuming) long held secret and that she please just be open minded about it. Lastly, and arguably most importantly at the early stages of the process , focus on the BENEFITS SHE'LL ENJOY from the "new and improved" you that discipline and accountability will bring out. Best of luck!!!!! It's a journey man!

    ReplyDelete
  24. As a traditional wife and mother, my biggest concern when my husband asked me to start spanking him was that I did not want him to turn into another one of my children. He wrote me a long email that made many of the same points that Darren makes above.

    What intrigued me the most was the promise that a spanking - or even the threat of one - would end our constant bickering. He swore that 99 percent of our inane arguments would now end in my favor. And he was right! So tell that to your wife!

    Even so, I set some limits to keep me from feeling like his mother. I do not spank him over my knee like I did our children. I do not use my hand like I did our children.

    I also insisted that his punishment would not be overtly sexual so that he would not misbehave as a turn-on. He gets no release as part of or immediately after punishment.
    So make sure your wife knows that you are giving her the authority to set ground rules that are comfortable for HER. It took me a while to figure out what those should be, but 14 years later we have a much better marriage and I am a much happier wife with my "naughty" MAN (not boy).
    Elizabeth

    ReplyDelete
  25. Thanks for your responses. I have said some of the things you mentioned to her. We got into an argument over weekend and I've felt bad about it. I brought up spanking again. I even mentioned this site. She hasn't said anything so I don't know what she's thinking.

    We tried spanking 3 years ago. First it was play but then I mentioned doing it for discipline. She was doing it and I thought she was getting better at it and then it stopped.

    She doesn't see herself as a disciplinarian and isn't comfortable with it. I think part of the problem is she was spanked with a paddle as a child in a not so loving environment. She hated being spanked and doesn't understand why I want to be. She has suggested that I find someone to spank me and meet my need. But my fantasies only have her spanking me so don't think I'd find fulfillment with someone else. I know I just need to be patient with her and I've accepted that it will probably never happen.

    ReplyDelete
  26. Patience is the wisest approach indeed. That and minimal expectations. But having said that I do have a more optimistic slant on the possibilities.

    The fact that she suggested that you find someone to do the spanking, which I am assuming you are correct about her sincerity, indicates great generosity on her part. That is a reason to at least hold on to some hope. Personally I think that characteristic is a big part in most DWC relationships. Also the fact that she tried it before is, to me at least, encouraging.

    You might consider a long-term strategy of "nibbling around the edges". Maybe she would be OK if you just wanted to be able to talk about spanking things with her as a more regular part of your communication menu. It would expand the depth of your normal/acceptable communication with her and at the end of the day, communication is THE big deal.

    It's an offer to let her into one of the deepest parts of your psyche and even if it goes no further, how liberating would that be?

    Just my off-the-cuff reaction to your post.

    ReplyDelete
  27. It's very interesting and very generous that your wife is open to someone else spanking you, especially if it was a woman. It shows she trusts you. It may not meet your fantasy but it may help improve your behavior. Domestic discipline is about you being a better husband, father, employee, etc., not about fulfilling your fantasies!
    I suggest you explore this with her. Would she pick the disciplinarian? (I would) Would she decide what you should be spanked for? (I would) Would she want to attend the session? (I would) Or would it have nothing to do with her?
    And most of all, how does she want your marriage to be different/better? How could you structure this to fulfill HER needs?
    Elizabeth

    ReplyDelete
  28. Yes my wife knows that it would be a woman would spank me and is ok with it. I agree it's very generous of her. I doubt if she would pick the disciplinarian or decide when I need to be spanked as she isn't wired to think like a disciplinarian yet. Truth be told I don't have the nerve to seek out someone else to spank me. I've told my wife that she is only person alive that I would trust to bare my bottom and give me a hard spanking.

    I still have a little hope that she will eventually spank me in the future. A couple of weeks ago we got in a disagreement about something and I got upset and walked away. Things got heated for a moment and she muttered out of earshot of the kids: "do you want me to take you upstairs and spank you because I will". She said it like she meant it and it instantly calmed me down. I told her later that the threat helped me and I wrote a spanking story about the incident and I let her read it. All she said about it was its a lot to process.

    So I'm hopeful but also being patient as I know it's a process.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I discovered this lifestyle through the Disciplinary Wives Club website, which was founded by Tomy's (see above) wife Kay. After reading through it myself, I told my wife about it and suggested she read it. She did, and it seemed to get her in the right mindset, seeing that this was about discipline and not some spanking kink

      Delete
  29. Ok I got to thinking she did mean it was OK if another woman spanked me? So I asked her at lunch and she said she assumed it would be a woman. I told her that was very loving and generous of her to allow another woman to spank my bare bottom. She said that way my needs are met and she can't provide what my heart desires. Now my question is how can I get her to see that she can indeed meet my needs as my heart desires???

    ReplyDelete
  30. "Now my question is how can I get her to see that she can indeed meet my needs as my heart desires??? " The answer is still patience. Instead of focusing on the ideal end-state, I would suggest trying to move ahead in any way that brings the DD further into your reality as a couple.

    Obviously, and I am very happy to hear it, your wife is your ultimate "fantasy". It was always that way with me too. But you need to be flexible and do whatever you can to normalize the DD element into your lives.

    ReplyDelete
  31. When she asked, "Do you want me to take you upstairs and spank you because I will," why didn't you say, "Yes, please!"

    Ok, so maybe you knew she didn't mean it in that moment. But she clearly is thinking about it or she would not have said that. So let her know that she "can end any disagreement" by threatening you with a spanking - or actually giving you one. This is a new tool for her marital tool box, and gives her almost unlimited authority! What wife doesn't want that!
    Frank

    ReplyDelete
  32. And ask her to read auntkaysdwc.com and tell her that Kay's widower participates here
    Frank

    ReplyDelete
  33. You're in the exact same situation i was and to an extent still am in! I know it's so hard. It's impossible to hear but the most important thing you can do is be PATIENT. Don't make the mistake (I did) of hounding her about it. You've made you point etc so let it drop for a bit. If she feels pressured good chance she'll retreat further.

    Wow...you're lucky she made the offer for you to find it from someone else. But as Tomy and Elizabeth commented , be careful using the word "fantasy" w her. We all know what you mean but to her that can come across as too sexual, kink, fetish etc. And also be prepared if she then came back and questions that you said it was the spanking you needed for discipline, so why wouldn't a spanking from someone else work.

    And anyway.....finding a normal, sane, woman (like your wife) who isn't a Domme or professional who is just a firm believer in discipline that is willing to spank you would be damn near impossible to find. Online (sites) fw regular guys, typically Dads are a lot easier to find. I can understand her not wanting to be there etc....but if she was involved in the process of looking for and communicating with could be a good start to ease her in.

    ReplyDelete
  34. Thanks again everyone for your responses. Frank when she asked me if I wanted a spanking I was thinking the same thing which is why I wrote a story about it!

    I wrote her a long email giving her my thoughts and told her I know she wasn't spanked in most loving way and I know it's hard on her to spank me which is why a spanking from her would mean so much more than from someone else. I asked her to keep an open mind and to think about it. She said she would so I guess we will see.

    ReplyDelete
  35. Tomy when you said, "Instead of focusing on the ideal end-state, I would suggest trying to move ahead in any way that brings the DD further into your reality as a couple." could you give some examples of what you mean by that?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "move ahead in any way that brings the DD further into your reality as a couple."

      Examples would be informal and casual talk about spanking - that comes up spontaneously. Waiting for when she brings it up to talk more about it. Certainly, if she is serious about getting discipline applied by another woman, go with it, do so with zero resistance, and just say "thank you" if it happens.

      And I will add this piece of "wisdom". Never underestimate what she understands about you and your wants and needs. Women are generally so much more aware of things than they let onto. Your desire to talk about it and "educate her" is a deep urge to communicate - to push the agenda forward -( welcome to being human). But I definitely believe she knows and understands a ton more than you think she does.

      Delete
  36. She said she would think about spanking you, so you need to let her do that. I would not bring it up again for at least a month. At LEAST a month. Otherwise she is going to feel pushed.

    Instead, shift your focus to making her life better. Start changing your behavior the way that spanking would change it. Usually for husbands that means helping out around the house. Pick three chores you don't do ... and start doing them! You can be absolutely sure that she will notice. Eventually she will say something like, "What's gotten into you? You are loading the dishwasher every night without me even asking!" And you can reply, "I know this may sound silly, but I imagined that you told me I had to load the dishwasher each night or you would spank me."
    She will likely laugh nervously. She may not comment. And you don't say another word! Just let the seed be planted. She will see that her life can improve by spanking you. Eventually there will be a behavior of yours she really wants to change ... without nagging you. And it will come to her how to do that ... with her wooden spoon!
    Elizabeth

    ReplyDelete
  37. Thanks Elizabeth! I will try your suggestions. My name is Tim in case I want to bring this back up in the future.

    Funny you said wooden spoon. When we dabbled in this 3 years ago the wooden spoon is what she picked and it is still in her nightstand drawer. I don't have a leather butt like some of the men here and I thought the wooden spoon stung plenty.

    Last night I was wanting to cut grass and she was wanting to do something with the kids. I flippantly made the comment that the grass needed cut. She shot me a spanking look that I haven't seen in a long time. I immediately calmed down and we talked about it.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hi, Tim, this is Danielle. I’m not sure I have much of relevance to add to what has been said. I will just make some observations that may or may not apply to your situation.

      First, I have a cautionary tale that may not apply. After I rejected my husband’s initial requests for spanking, back when our sons were still children, we had some bitter arguments about it. (Like you and your wife?) At one point, Wayne said, “Maybe I should go to a professional to get spanked, since you find it so distasteful.” I said, “Fine. You can do that if it will make you happy.” He said, “Seriously? You would let me do that?” I said, “Yes, do what you need to do.”

      So he did. He went to a professional dominatrix for a spanking. Although I had given permission, I was angry and hurt, so it made things worse between us. I know now I was a hypocrite to get angry after I had given permission. But the thing is, when I gave permission, I didn’t think he would really do it. Also, I was motivated to give permission by frustration with what I then saw as his “f**king obsession” with spanking.

      By the way, in an effort to defuse my anger, he told me that what he had received was ‘just a spanking” and that “there was no sex involved.” I called bullshit on that because I knew how sexual spanking was for him. Many years later, after we had established a FLR and were able to communicate honestly about sex, he told me the complete story of his encounter with the dominatrix, and he confirmed that I was right to call bullshit on his claim that it had been a simple “non-sexual disciplinary event.”

      With the changed mentality that came with FLR, I was able to laugh at his entertaining “confession” about the events of that day. The dominatrix was actually a semi-professional opera singer supplementing her income by domming men in her downtown apartment. She showed him her “dungeon room”, though they didn’t use it because she got that he was into a “domestic discipline scene.” She just wanted him to know that her services went beyond simple spankings. She had told him in advance not to expect sex because her service would include “discipline” and nothing more. But at the end of the hour, she told him that she was making an exception because he had taken his spankings “like a good boy”, and she gave him a hand job which he was too horny to turn down, although he felt guilty about it. He figured she provided that sexual “bonus” because simple “domestic discipline” was an easy gig for a pro dominatrix, so she probably wanted him to come back for more. (He never did because of my anger). So I ended up spanking him for that many years after it happened, although I was no longer angry about it.

      That’s my cautionary tale about a wife giving her husband permission to be spanked by another woman. As I said, it may not apply to you because it sounds as though your wife is more open-minded and permissive than I was back then. I gave permission based on confused feelings of frustration and resentment and a belief that he wouldn’t really do it. It sounds as though your wife has thought about it with a cooler head, so maybe she wouldn’t really mind. But if you ever do decide to act on it, I think you need to make sure she is truly okay with it.

      I have a second point, but I will post it separately.

      Delete
    2. Danielle here again, with a couple more points.

      When your wife says that she is uncomfortable spanking you because she is “your wife, not your mother,” I don’t see that as an “argument” to which there is a counter-argument. Based on my personal experience of having told my husband the same thing at one point, I believe you should view it as an expression of sexual feelings. Ideally a woman finds the man she marries sexually attractive, and most women don’t find a need to be spanked like a naughty boy an attractive quality in a man. My initial rejection of my husband’s request for spankings was motivated by a feeling that I would no longer be able to find him attractive. Now, many years later and in a full spectrum FLR, I no longer feel that way. Maybe I misjudged how sexually malleable I could be back then. Or maybe my feelings have just changed with age. I don’t know.

      I also want to comment on something Darren wrote:

      >>>Assuming you're coming to this from a genuine place rather than just having a spank fetish...... explain to her that what you want from this, your goal, is to improve your behavior to become the best you can be, which includes being a better husband to her. Acknowledge you get that this can be a bit confusing and off putting for her but you can't help how you're wired.... so for whatever reason discipline and punishment is what you respond to.<<<

      I suspect that most men who ask their wives to spank them have a spanking fetish. My husband does. Elizabeth’s husband does. Not every man here does. Dan, for instance, didn’t come to DD based on a lifelong obsession with spanking, but I would bet he is exceptional in that way. What I want to say, is that you shouldn’t claim that this is all about “discipline” and that it isn’t a sexual “kink” if that is bullshit. Honest communication about your needs and desires, and your wife’s needs and desires, can’t begin with bullshit.

      Taking it further, I think a D/s relationship (whether DD or FLR) needs to be based on open and clear communication about your sexual fantasies, your wife’s as well as yours. Do you know what sexual fantasies your wife has? When my husband and I finally embarked on a FLR, we also began to share our fantasies. I shared mine too. That was both liberating and a real turn-on.

      Anyway, this may not be relevant to you and your wife. But the bottom line is that I don’t think anything is gained by pretending a sexual desire isn’t a sexual desire.

      Delete
    3. I tend to agree with Danielle that turning to a pro for something you aren't getting at home is playing with fire. I'm not saying that it can't be an accommodation that works for some couples, but it is more likely to cause serious relationship damage.

      Delete
    4. I too agree with Danielle said about taking her up on the freedom to find someone else to spank you. Not only is it likely to cause lots of tension and hurt feelings, at the very least, but it also dilutes the true message that you want HER to spank you. It would be pretty easy for her to get the idea that spanking is more important to you than she is, and that would be distinctly unhelpful.

      Also, on the "fantasy" part I wholeheartedly agree as well. Unless it happens to be completely true that this is all just about behavior modification with no accompanying spanking fetish of some sort, it is not at all a good idea to tell her that because she will easily see through it.

      On a related note, for me I have a strong fantasy/fetish for DD and to a certain degree FLR, much more so than for spanking itself. I understand that some people do not have such a fetish, and that is great.

      However, I just really, Really, REALLY don't understand why so many people want to separate out the fetish part from the "real" DD part, like somehow it is a bad thing if DD is a fantasy that is being fulfilled for him. For me, probably 99% of why DD is so powerful is precisely BECAUSE it plays to my deepest fantasies! So we do real DD, with real punishments for real issues, and at the same time it satisfies my most powerful desires for imposed boundaries, and at the same time it reduces conflict, greatly improves communication, increases intimacy, and gives her a way to fully share and vent frustrations. To me, this seems like huge win-win!

      -ZM

      Delete
    5. Dan wrote:
      >>>I tend to agree with Danielle that turning to a pro for something you aren't getting at home is playing with fire. I'm not saying that it can't be an accommodation that works for some couples, but it is more likely to cause serious relationship damage.<<<

      Dan, it was playing with fire at the time because I agreed to let Wayne do it insincerely, and emotional damage resulted. That being said, if I ever did decide to farm some of my husband’s discipline out to another woman, I now think a professional dominatrix would be a good choice. That’s because there would be no emotional entanglement with a professional. My husband would be nothing more than a paying client to her. I know now that there were greater dangers to my marriage during the time Wayne went down the online rabbit hole. He met people online in BDSM and spanking themed chatrooms and message boards. I won’t go into the details about that. But some of the people there, including one interested woman active in the BDSM scene as a top, told him he was “cowardly” to stay in a marriage with a “vanilla wife” who couldn’t meet his needs as a kinkster and a “natural born submissive.” He never met that woman in person because she lived a thousand miles away, but she did propose meeting him at a BDSM convention at one point so she could “show him the ropes”. He didn’t do that, but he has confessed that it was really tempting. I had no idea about that danger at the time, but he told me about it after we had established a FLR and I was no longer his “vanilla wife.”
      Danielle

      Delete
    6. ZM, you and I really see eye to eye on this stuff. Just because something is sexual, that doesn't mean it isn't real. Take my husband's domestic servitude, for example. It is 100 % a sexual kink. That's what's in it for him. But that doesn't alter the reality that he actually does almost all the cooking and cleaning for me. All I have to do is push some of his buttons to make it erotic. It's the same with "discipline". It is totally sexual, but it has real results.
      Danielle

      Delete
  38. I agree with those that say seeking spanking from someone else would not be good for our relationship. The only way it would work is (1) she knew and the woman doing the spanking or (2) she sought out the woman on her own and attended the sessions. Neither of those are viable options so it's not going to happen.

    I've been very open about my spanking fetish with my wife. She understands it but doesn't think she can fulfill it right now even though I disagree. I've told her that knowing that she doesn't get enjoyment out of spanking will mean so much more to me if she does it than going to someone who does.

    Danielle that was a good perspective about my wife not feeling attractive about spanking a naughty husband. My wife has also made that exact point before. My only counter argument is that if spanking makes me a better husband and results in a closeness we don't have without it is that not attractive?

    I love my wife and am really to be patient until she is comfortable with it. I do understand this is complicated and takes time.

    ReplyDelete
  39. For those that was following my situation my wife and I have skirted around the edge of spanking this weekend. She hasn't specifically mentioned the word spanking but some of her actions and looks have let me know that she's at least been thinking about it or referring to it. And she gave one lecture that really felt to me that she was going to spank me. The lecture was different and felt like a pre spanking lecture without the spanking. That's a start for me anyway and I'm happy for it to start slow until it finally happens.

    Thanks again for all your suggestions. It has seemed to help get the ball rolling to at least be able to talk about it.

    Tim

    ReplyDelete
  40. Have you shared all this dialogue with her? You are pretty authentic throughout it.

    Might offer a treasure trove of material for meaningful conversation.

    ReplyDelete
  41. Tomy,

    I told my wife about this site. I figured if she came here and read this shed know it was me. She hasn't said anything so I don't think she's been here.

    Let me think about sharing this dialogue with her. Nothing I've said here is anything I haven't told her. But I don't want her to read this and freak out and get turned off about it especially since I feel like we are slowly getting spanking talk back in our relationship.

    ReplyDelete
  42. Of course you know what's best for your circumstances.

    The rationale for the suggestion was that discussions like this tend to be more open and with lower levels of holding things back.

    It's an idea you can tuck away in your back pocket for an appropriate time.

    ReplyDelete
  43. Thanks for the suggestion. I will keep it in mind.

    ReplyDelete
  44. This would make a good alternative name for this blog "Be Careful What You Wish For" HA!

    ReplyDelete

This blog is a curated resource for those genuinely and positively interested in DD and FLR lifestyles. Comments that are rude, uncivil, inconsistent with the blog's theme or off-topic may not be posted or may be removed.