Saturday, June 2, 2018

Club Meeting 253 - Leverage & The Value of Not Being Nice


"Be tolerant with others and strict with yourself.” - Marcus Aurelius

Hello all.  Happy Saturday.  I hope you all had a great week.  Mine was OK, though kind of tiring for a short one.  And I spent half my day yesterday dealing with computer problems.  Funny how keeping all these "time saving devices" working can consume a whole day.  

On the FLR and DD front, I feel like our relationship is working on about the same level as my computer -- lots of potential though largely unfulfilled thanks to various interferences and process glitches.  It's frustrating, because a couple of weeks ago I put quite a lot of time into drafting daily and weekly "report cards" and coming up with plans to build some structure into our DD relationship to get it back on track.  She also seemed highly motivated.  But, it just never quite came together, and for the same reasons as every other time we've tried to move it forward -- work distractions and travel, and kids in the house.  I'm starting to wonder whether the reason past polls showed that those into DD were overwhelmingly over the age of 50 is best explained by the simple fact that it's often in our 50s that the kids finally get the the hell out of the house once and for all, opening up some space for more adult activities.  But, that takes a long time, as I'm learning that empty-nester status is a process, not an event.

As has been the case often of late, I find myself drifting along with no particular topic in mind.  Maybe this is a byproduct of the low-level frustration I've feel for awhile with the constraints imposed by a weekly topic  -- my mind is simply refusing to come up with actual topics, so instead I ramble and see what comes of it.  While they aren't confined to a well-defined topic, there were a couple of things that attracted my attention this week and might generate at least a little conversation.

A few weeks ago, I read about the Smallville actress who was arrested for allegedly acting as a recruiter for a sex cult.  Despite the salacious topic, I didn't pay a lot of attention to it at the time.  This week, however the New York Times posted a long investigative piece about it,  entitled The Sex Cult That Preached Empowerment:  https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/30/magazine/sex-cult-empowerment-nxivm-keith-raniere.html.  I personally found it a really fascinating read, even though, its title notwithstanding, there was very little discussion of sex.  Setting aside its Amway business model and a branding ritual that made me squirm, the whole thing sounds more like a group of "life coaches" and their students, finding new and interesting ways to encourage self-improvement by coming up with personalized consequences sufficient to motivate an actual positive behavioral change.  


The leverage they created included things like pledging "collateral" in one form or another, such as giving the leaders of the group a letter admitting to some embarrassing or illegal act, but if the person met their personal performance goals, the letter would not be released.  The collateral would not be sacrificed and the person would not suffer any detriment, as long as they did what they said they were going to do.  They also used group consequences for individual failures. For example, if John set a goal of running every day and he failed to do it on Monday, then on Tuesday all the men in John's assigned support group might have to give up their morning coffee.  Knowing that others might pay a price for his own failure would presumably give John a greater incentive to do what he pledged to do.  Many of the "motivators" really seem to be about raising the consequences of failing to such a high degree that the person was left highly, highly motivated not to fail. 
It was pretty fascinating in that most "cults" are focused on the initiates meeting the needs of the leader or guru, but this one was built more on the principle of experienced initiates helping newcomers meet their own goals, with the initiates paying the leader a fee for taking part in this system and getting his instruction.  Kind of like a Tony Robbins seminar on steroids.  But, also with an overlay of D/s, including "Master" and "slave" titles.  


While definitely more extreme that what most of us are doing, the parallels to asking wives to act as coaches or mentors, with the authority to raise the stakes sufficiently to really get our attention, was hard to miss.  Because for those of us who are using DD to try to improve ourselves and accomplish more or break bad habits, that is what DD is about, right?  Gaining sufficient leverage to get over those impediments that get in the way of meeting your goals?

In parallel with this, I've been reading a book called Not Nice: https://www.amazon.com/Not-Nice-Pleasing-Speaking-Unapologetically-ebook/.  It's all about the pressures we all feel to be overly "nice" at the expense of our own self-interest, and the stress this places on our psyches and our relationships.  While the article above resonated with me because of my participation in Domestic Discipline, I actively sought out a book on learning how not to be "nice," because I think it is a concept that is really, really important for our Disciplinary Wives.  As we've been discussing over the last few weeks, one of the big impediments to making the leap into real Head of Household status, or to becoming really rigorous at enforcing the rules, is the natural tendency to be "reasonable" or, in a word, "nice."  It's part of the same spectrum as seeking to avoid being labeled as "bitchy."  We all have a tendency to dumb ourselves down and avoid speaking our minds, because we want to avoid hurting or offending others. But, the price to be paid for that is we're never really living up to our potential or satisfying our own needs or, in the DD context, his needs to be kept firmly under her control. 

[Update: I was working my way through the above book as I wrote this post.  I've now gotten through most of it. On balance, I think it has some good tips on how to be more assertive and more comfortable with drawing boundaries.  But, there are parts in which--in my personal opinion--the author draws boundaries that seem to be all about he gets his needs met and no one else does even if the "sacrifice" on his part is trivial, resulting in what seem to be very one-sided friendships and personal relationships.  Any real human relationship involves doing some things you may not be into at the time, in order to support the other person.  The author is very cavalier about dismissing his wife and friends' needs for support on flimsy bases.  Like refusing to go out with her for an evening when her parents are visiting even though they rarely visit, because he wants to spend the time hanging out with two friends he could see anytime, then justifying it based on the importance of "needing time for himself."  Everyone draws their boundaries in different places, and while I like the program the author lays out, at times he seems to be going more for obnoxious "Bro" boy than an independent or assertive man. I'm all for authenticity, but it's possible to be a perfectly authentic douchebag.  In advising young execs at my company on business development, I often tell them, "Be yourself.  Unless your "self" is a disagreeable, pretentious, self-important douchebag.  In that case, by all means be someone else."]

I suspect that the Disciplinary Wives recognize this dynamic even more so than the men, because our women are conditioned to be nice and nurturing and non-aggressive, which is all great except that makes it very hard for them to step up into leadership roles, because those roles often involve saying "no" and sticking to it, and enforcing the rules even when he's offering all the reasons he should be let off the hook.  Her natural desire to be "nice" can create a dynamic that just doesn't work in a real DD or FLR relationship,  because we have agreed that she will be in charge and that I will be subject to her rules and her discipline. We disciplined men want that discipline to be firm, unyielding and hard.  Basically, we want her to learn not to be "nice." We want her to speak her mind, and we want her to be more open and direct in doing so, which was what we were talking about last week.  Hence, my interest in finding resources that might teach my wife how to break the "nice" habit and step more fully into her leader role.

Another reason I went looking for such a book was our discussion about trying to talk our way out of consequences and rules.  I want to find ways for my wife to get more and more comfortable telling me, "No means no."


Like I said, I don't have much of an actual topic in mind for this week, beyond the general topic of getting leverage through spanking and non-spanking means, and encouraging our wives not to be nice and to recognize that in DD "nurturing" may include being quite unyielding, firm and resolute. I think the concept that unites these two disparate topics, and the article about the "sex cult," is the focus on consequences.  As men who asked for Domestic Discipline, is it consequences we are really looking for, and for someone who is strong enough to keep escalating the consequences such that the behavior actually does improve?  I do know that in my own case, I am awfully hard-headed and strong-willed, which may mean that to get sufficient leverage over me to effect a real change, my wife has to be prepared to really escalate the consequences to get my attention.  

Well, I know that is not a particularly focused topic, but it's what I had on my mind this Saturday.  FYI, I'm traveling next weekend, so there likely won't be a new posting next week.

41 comments:

  1. Hi Dan,
    I will post more later, since I found several very intriguing things in what you wrote this week, but I just wanted to say that you should not be hard on yourself for not coming up with "new" topics every week. You do an excellent job of keeping the blog going and tightly focused and in facilitating discussion. I always look forward to the weekly blog update, but not because I am wanting or needing a new topic as much as I love seeing where the ongoing conversation will go!

    -ZM

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    1. Thanks, ZM. Much appreciated. I do suspect that truly "new" topics are going to be few are far between after 253 posts.

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    2. @Dan: I seriously doubt even a FemDom would put up with that line of BS! I know I wouldn't!

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    3. Hi Merry! Honestly, I need to learn to just hit the delete button. About twice a year, I get some new commenter who wants to take over the blog and/or psychoanalyze me from afar.

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    4. lol, Dan, I came too late to the "party". I was not even able to read that comment.

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    5. Sorry lawyer. I thought about leaving it up, along with my response, but after a week consumed with Rosanne Barr and Samantha Bee headlines, I decided to do my part to encourage an atmosphere of civility and restraint. :-)

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  3. The anonymous commenter seems to have the same drive toward ideological purity that is sometimes found in political and religious movements. As you say "in the real world the DD relationship is almost always initiated by the man".

    I would thing that women who spank their partner do so for various reasons. In some cases it is purely sexual, in some cases it is purely disciplinary, in most cases it is probably a mixture of the two. And although it is usually the man who initiates it, this does not mean that the woman does not enjoy it. When my girlfriend first started to spank me, I thought she might be doing it simply to humor me, but it soon became clear that this was not the case. To my surprise she suggested that we contact other couples in our area where the woman spanks her partner. She initiated this, not me.

    I wonder if this is a common pattern: A man confesses to his wife or girlfriend that he likes to be spanked. She is a little hesitant at first, but agrees to try it. When she does, she finds that she enjoys doing it and soon becomes an enthusiastic spanker.

    richard

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    1. Hi Richard. I like the reference to ideological purity, though it does kind of assume the two people share an ideology to begin with. I seem to get into these arguments two or three times a year, and they almost always begin with someone from the Femdom or BDSM "community" wading in here and claiming I need to get in line in with Femdom or BDSM orthodoxy, even though I not only have not claimed to be in or promoting BDMS or Femdom. There's even a disclaimer to that effect in the masthead of this blog! Domestic Discipline and Femdom are not the same thing. And, while the distinction is not quite as clear, I don't think an FLR is the same thing as Femdom, as Femdom often sweeps in these notions of "worshiping" the wife and female superiority, etc. They may be on the same spectrum, but at very different places on that spectrum. This whole discussion does, in fact, have me thinking about whether I want to change my own verbiage in this space, using a term like Wife Led Marriage, instead of Female Led Relationship, just to build in a greater conceptual and semantic gap between Femdom and its notions of innate female superiority versus designating one partner in a marriage to have the top position in the chain of command.

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    1. Hey Glen. I definitely agree with the last part of your first sentence, i.e. that women will tolerate bad behavior to avoid conflict and be nice, and that while we all are prone to it women may be even more so because of their nurturing nature. You also point out the paradox that the same nurturing nature and maternal instincts that may make them tolerant of his BS also make them natural disciplinarians.

      I'm not quite as sure about the first part of the sentence that women want a strong man in their life who will be a leader and take care of them. The strong man part seems true, though I'm less sure about the "be a leader" and "take care of them" parts. It's been interesting to me how much my wife has gravitated toward being identified as "the leader" once she saw that avenue was open to her. That doesn't mean she's found it easy to overcome the socialization that used to put women in secondary roles, but I think she really does want to "balance" the power, and to some extent to imbalance it in her own favor. It's also interesting watching younger women in the workplace. I don't detect much of wanting to find a man "to take care of them" in their psychological makeup. But, there is obviously a ton of variation among and within groups.

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    3. I''m probably showing my age as well, as I'm with you on the part of wanting a strong man. I doubt that is a thing of the past, but who knows? It's really the part about "to take care of them" that I'm not as sure about. I think the younger generation is just a lot more independent and probably don't have as much of an expectation about being provided for or protected. In fact, as I mentioned last week, it seemed telling to me that in the recent royal wedding, the wife's vow substituted "protect" for "obey." Not a chance in your generation or mine that a bride would have vowed to be her husband's "protector."

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    5. Very interesting! If I were going to be spanked by a character in Suits, however, I would definitely go for Jessica Pearson, the firm's managing partner. Now, that is one tough, resolute woman!

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  5. I think it was the Maternal element of a vastly more comprehensive love that enabled my wife to fully embrace the disciplinary role. She recognized the nurture my spirit received as well as the desired behavioral changes.

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    1. Hi Tomy. That's a great way to put it. It took me a while to get comfortable with the allusion to maternal elements driving the disciplinary motivation in both parties, but I've gotten there. Many moms have raised many strong men through "tough love."

      It occurs to me that you've never shared either here or on your own blog how your own DD relationship started, and I'm very curious as to whether it was initiated by Kay or by you. I'd love to hear the backstory sometime, whether here, on your blog, or by email.

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    2. Dan
      Since Tomy's description of their marriage is how i think Peter and i approach the discipline.
      He is a good man to listen to.... and dont give up the blog.. you are a Prince. Granted a rather controlling and bratty prince but some of us love you !
      Anna

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    3. Hi Anna,

      It's kind of funny you use that precise phrasing. One of my "guilty pleasures" in books is Anne Rice's Vampire Chronicles series, with the protagonist Lestat. I got into them a few years ago after a friend told me I reminded her of that character. In the books, some refer to Lestat as a "Brat Prince." So, I will thank you for the comment and take the label as a compliment. :-)

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    4. Anna - I am ever so grateful for your kind comments. Thanks you.

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  6. When we first began our FLR, she agreed to administer discipline when she felt it necessary. Having written here before, most readers will recall that she does not like to discipline. However, she will and she is not 'nice' while doing so. After the scolding, which I hate, she administers the punishment coldly. Nothing nice about it. Mostly using the prescribed implement and number of strokes we had put into our list of offenses. There are times, when she will improvise and use more than one toy or extend the duration. She then puts down the implements and abruptly leaves me alone. By the time I collect myself and rejoin her, the issue is over as we decided it would be. I am amazed at how she can determine punishment is needed, administer it so cold or 'not nice' as she does and nearly immediately act as if nothing had occured. This is one of the basic concepts of the DD lifestyle we both founded ours upon. No arguments, no long term anger holding, and no long silent treatments. Administer the punishment and the issue is over. I can't imagine me wanting her to be 'less nice' during the discipline portion or our relationship.

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    2. From the beginning our DD relationship, we talked about how it would enable her to express her displeasure in a concrete, assertive way. But, at first I didn't really appreciate the element of ending arguments quickly then moving on, as opposed to passive-aggressive silences, long arguments, and hurt feelings, etc. Over time, I've become convinced that really is one of the most important benefits of this lifestyle.

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    3. Dan, couldn't agree more with you last comment about how DD has as it's major benefit the ability to break the cycle in petty squabbles and the whole 'passive/aggressive' nonsense. Spanking has always been a bit of a fetish for me, my wife agreeing to try it out for disciplinary purposes seemed to good to be true at the time. I quickly (i.e. first time she got serious!) realised how much it hurt in reality but by then we were both committed and she had already seen the benefits. We are completely 'vanilla' otherwise and even the spanking has zero role play element. As she says 'it is not a game'

      We still occasionally argue but she is very clear that I will NEVER resist a spanking and so has, several times' brought an escalating disagreement to an end with her strap - but only because I was tending towards irrational or emotional arguments or being rude/disrespectful. And no, I don't feel in any way bullied or resentful. I can make my point all night long as long as I stay within behaviour boundaries.

      Great blog, BTW - very consistent, thought provoking and helpful TB

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    4. Hi TB. Our dynamic is similar to yours, in that there is zero role play element during spankings, and DD has had a huge impact in diminishing, if not quite eliminating passive-aggression. Now, as I said in the last post, after watching the last two 50 Shades movies she seems to have acquired an interest in pursuing some more "non-vanilla" experimentation. We haven't had a chance to discuss it further, so I really don't know what she has in mind. We shall see.

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  7. It doesn't seem like too many touched upon the "nice vs. not-nice" issue, so.......

    This is another of those rare areas where we either are very different in what we want or are getting bogged down in words whose connotations are leading us down different avenues. For me "nice" is crucial. I have no desire for Rosa to be less nice, regardless of the circumstances. Being human there are always times when she or I are not as nice as we could be, and I can say with conviction that when she is not as nice as she could be with something, I am far LESS inclined to submit than had she been nicer about whatever it was. My trust in her and my ability to obey is contingent on her fairness.......and niceness.

    I don't see the need to dispense with niceness in order to be firm. In fact, I have always tried to manage in that way....where opposition or resistance to my direction met with increased firmness without a decrease in niceness. Some people, (usually those who push back too hard) might interpret the increased firmness, or imposition of consequence as some indication that I was no longer being nice, but that is not the case. No longer being 'nice' might eventually be necessary, but it should not be the default reaction to unwanted behavior.

    I also think the book you mentioned sounds like the pseudo-psychological rationalizations of a spoiled narcissist. (and we all know how infuriating spoiled narcissists can be). It seems like the underlying premise is "what's good for me is good for me because it's good for me." ....truly a book for our age. ;-)

    I also LOVE your "be yourself" advice! Brilliant. It is both accurate AND humorous.

    Oddly enough, I too have a "be yourself" quote I use that looks at the issue from a slightly different angle. I tell people: "When someone advises, 'be yourself', what they REALLY are saying is, 'be yourself as long as it is consistent with what I expect you to be'."

    Oh and just in case my post has ventured too far from the prevailing DD milieu, let me conclude by saying, 'spankety-spank-spank.......spank spank." ;-)

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    1. I guess the issue is, "nice as opposed to what?" Or, maybe it is, what is "nice." What I was getting at (and hoped to find in that book), is the form of "niceness" that translates into not enforcing rules because of a desire to always be reasonable and accommodating, even if that is the opposite of what the couple has agreed to and is the opposite of what he actually wants in the long run, even if in the short run he is trying to talk his way out of something. It's the dynamic that was in play a few weeks ago when she announced that I was grounded from drinking, but I instantly talked her out of it on the basis of a pre-existing work function. Her natural inclination to be reasonable resulted in her order not being enforced, and left me feeling guilty about my role in bringing that situation about. In the long run, both of would have been happier had she been resolute and just said "No means no." And, again, I'm not blaming her. I started the whole mess by trying to talk my way out of the order she imposed.

      As you say, this may or may not be semantics, but in this case I would say the options were firmness on one side, versus niceness, reasonableness, non-bitchiness, or whatever noun you want to come up with. But, it may be more than semantics. As we talked about a couple of weeks ago when you posted about being in a "mood," I do think you lay down more rules around when you will and won't be disciplined or managed than I do, and while I may not like it in the moment I actually think it is often better for me in the long run when she is less reasonable, less accommodating of my wishes and moods, and more strict. There's nothing right or wrong about either approach.

      I have now finished the book entirely and, yes, I think your summary is dead-on accurate. It does have some good advice around how to be more decisive and less reactive on what to be accommodating and when not to, but when you read his personal anecdotes it all seems to come down to, "Our relationship is all about me. What you are asking of me is a trivial imposition on my time, and I'm just so exhausted my life that I need "me time" this evening to play video games with my bros.

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  8. Hello Dan,
    Ironically, it sounds like the author of the book could benefit from having a strict wife to help him get sense of entitlement!

    Niceness and leverage are both good themes, and they really do fit together. One caveat: I am in a DD, which is by its very nature intermittent. I would likely value niceness and reasonability more highly if I were in a more full-time FLR,

    First, regarding “niceness.” My wife is kind, thoughtful, understanding, reasonable, and logical, all of which is much appreciated on a day to day basis. However, when I cross the line, I need her to temporarily be much, much less nice, understanding and reasonable (though preferably still logical)! I have excuses for everything, and can justify just about anything. I need not worry when I have genuine reasons; it is her nature to be understanding. But by the time something has gotten to the point that she decides to address it, she generally just needs to look past my paper-thin excuses and get on with it.

    Of course it is possible to be nice and reasonable and at the same time firm, but often these traits end up at odds with each other, especially in a marriage. Considering my wife's pleasant nature and the fact that she loves me, it would be easy for her to just let things slide. If I leave undone dishes, she would wash them without blinking an eye, and normally wouldn't be upset about it. This would be “nice” and certainly more welcome (at the time) than a sore, bruised, swollen bottom, but it also would do nothing to get my attention and it could lead to resentment on her part. So while she could just let it slide, much of the chaos and ongoing pain in our lives is the result of too many things sliding for too long.

    So I have asked her to hold me to a much higher standard, with the aim of changing some deeply ingrained bad habits and making me more conscientious. I need her to be not too nice, and not very reasonable about little things like this, because these small infractions don't happen in a vacuum, but rather are part of much bigger patterns that need to change. Is it really that much nicer or more reasonable to let me continue in my bad habits when I have asked her to help me change?

    This leads me to consequences and leverage. To be effective, consequences need to be undesirable enough that you will think twice about a behavior. In the case of the cult, it would seem that the consequences were pretty extreme. My somewhat cynical expectation is even though the cult was supposedly helping people achieve their own personal goals, in at least some cases they probably misused the leverage they had to control the members. If the cult leader knew some big secret about you, he would be very tempted to misuse that leverage.

    In the case of our DD, I want the consequences to be severe enough that I really, really don't want them to happen at the time, but at the same time, they have to be overall compatible with our loving relationship. Again, perhaps because of her being too “nice,” at least so far we have never had to worry about consequences being too severe, but she is getting more comfortable in her role as disciplinarian.

    True leverage in a DD relationship is being able to effect change. For DD to work, two conditions must be met. First, consequences need to be significant enough to be truly unpleasant and unwanted, and second, the disciplinary partner needs to be firm enough to ensure that consequences naturally follow actions. No matter how severe the consequences are, if I deem her unlikely to follow through, they probably are not much of a deterrent. By being firm and consistent, she can achieve much better results than by threatening huge consequences and then not following through. Excessive “niceness” results in lack of consistency, and ultimately leads to loss of leverage, regardless of the severity of threated consequnces.
    -ZM

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    1. One thing is for sure ZM, you have what I call a "high-class" problem.

      Cheers.

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    2. Hi ZM. I totally agree with the last paragraph in your comment. In our relationship, the severity has been there, but the consistency has not. But, she's working on it.

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  9. Communication is key I feel. I crave Mrs GL upping thetelling off part of my weekly chastisement but I want it to be authentic and for me that doesn't happen if it gets too close to bitter or harsh. As you can see I have created a non anonymous route to my occasional contributions. Cheers.

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  10. We try to adhere to the three key points of swift, consistent and severe. Any discipline needs to happen soon after the offender, the consequences should be consistent and severe enough so that I regret my actions.

    Easier said than done but at least it gives her some frame. She is generally pretty ‘nice’ about the whole thing - rarely displaying anger, confident that any telling off / punishment is good for me, our marriage and will clear the air. TB

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  11. Well, Ann has learned to be not nice. I committed a rather serious financial transgression. The last time I did something like this she gave me a severe spanking (200+ with our worst implements) every day for three days in a row. The last day I started crying before I even pulled down my underwear.

    Since then I've had a medical event that means she cannot do that on subsequent days, so for the next 8 weeks on the days our son is out of the house I am to wear my white briefs to work, come home from work, get things ready (paddles, pillows), change clothes, and then sit on the bed with my pants and briefs down until she decides to come up and spank me. I'm not sure, but we're talking 40 or 50 on each cheek, or until I'm crying. I'll be doing that at least two days per week. I expect it will be Labor Day before my bottom is pink again! We start tomorrow. I'll keep you posted. Oh, and any other offenses still merit a spanking, as if I hadn't been spanked that day.

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    1. Hi Fred. Sounds like it is going to be a rough time for you for some time to come. Yes, please do keep us posted.

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  12. First round was bad enough. Mild bruising to start. BTW, sitting on the bed in just t-shirt and briefs and the briefs down was somehow more focusing for me than standing in the corner.

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  13. Although I already posted, I felt the need to post once again. I am human.......and volatile. There are times when feel I am in over my head and times when I am 'full of piss and vinegar'. But if I am to be completely honest, when I am feeling defeated and vulnerable, I'd probably benefit from a stern command to place myself across my honey's lap for a good dose of her corrective paddle to get my head straight via some direct attention to my backside. And if I am to be even further honest, even when I am fully defiant and confident in my defiance to benevolent ruling.......there's a damned good chance I am equally deserving of my Honey's paddle.

    When you are wired like I am, it's so difficult to know in the heat of the moment when a good, hard spanking is warranted......but even if someone like me thinks it's not.......doesn't mean it is.

    Thought for the day.

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    1. Yes, that's the hard part, isn't it? Submitting when you think she's wrong, even though she very well may not be. While our DD relationship doesn't play out that way very often, our pre-DD relationship did -- often. We would get into a fight about something, I would be 100% sure I was right, but after a full airing of views and a few hours of anger and sulking, I'd have some "ah ha" moment where I saw that, no, I really had been acting like a dick.

      Now, I don't think for me a spanking would be useful when feel defeated and vulnerable, unless my defeat was the result of something bad or dumb that I myself did. Unlike a lot of the people who come here, I have little or no desire to be spanked for non-corrective, non-accountability reasons. It's that need that DD serves for me, and spanking for stress relief or almost as solace at a moment when I'm down likely would be counter-productive.

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  14. My long term gf has shown interest in being dominant in past and we have experienced several times and due to her lack of involvement each time its failed.  We recently agreed to really be committed and devoted together and not just me doing everything she wants and her never being involved or in any way giving me reason to be focused etc. She has shown interest and made list of rules and even been using a couple apps which before she viewed as a hassle.

    Only been a week and I see improvements in ways from past attempts but still haven't experienced that wow momment proving to me her true desire to dom and embrace her place.  The thing is she has it inside her and is very strong willed and very firey and she has overwhelmed me before and shown me a side that truely had me fearful of her wrath and always amped up and charged my focus and motivation. 

    But recently after discussing more sh3 says she is very comfortable in this and does want this but I have yet to feel that true and real serious desire to control me yet and attitude of oh ill get him to do what i want etc. So idk what to do.

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  15. My long term gf has shown interest in being dominant in past and we have experienced several times and due to her lack of involvement each time its failed.  We recently agreed to really be committed and devoted together and not just me doing everything she wants and her never being involved or in any way giving me reason to be focused etc. She has shown interest and made list of rules and even been using a couple apps which before she viewed as a hassle.

    Only been a week and I see improvements in ways from past attempts but still haven't experienced that wow momment proving to me her true desire to dom and embrace her place.  The thing is she has it inside her and is very strong willed and very firey and she has overwhelmed me before and shown me a side that truely had me fearful of her wrath and always amped up and charged my focus and motivation. 

    But recently after discussing more sh3 says she is very comfortable in this and does want this but I have yet to feel that true and real serious desire to control me yet and attitude of oh ill get him to do what i want etc. So idk what to do.

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