Hi all. Welcome back to the Disciplined Husbands Forum -- our weekly
gathering of men and women engaged or interested in F/m domestic
discipline and female led relationships. I hope you all had a great
week.
I've been thinking a lot about leadership lately, in terms of both our DD relationship and things at work. Obviously, some people assume leadership roles more readily than others. Some people aspire to be leaders. Some actively resist it. Dominance is maybe leadership on steroids. It seems clear that people have different inclinations toward being leaders or followers, and also varying capacities to play those roles.
It's always an over-simplification to try to divide people or relationships up into two general types, but I do feel like there are two broad categories of DD relationships. First, those where one, and hopefully both parties, are acting in the role that fits their natural inclinations. The naturally dominant person is in charge, and more subservient party is the follower. In the second camp are those like Angela and I, where one or both parties are taking on a role that cuts against the grain of his or her base nature. Outside our DD relationship, I am by far the more aggressive, type-A, Alpha spouse. We chose the path of DD precisely because it helps us grow and mature and balance, by taking on the opposite role.
I'm glad that we did it and that it is growing deeper. But, it is undeniably hard sometimes. It's hard for someone whose core nature involves a need to rebel to submit to someone's authority. Likewise, it is hard (maybe harder) for someone who is not entirely comfortable leading to project authority, make decisions, and to punish when necessary. A fellow DD blogger and one of the few out there blogging from a female perspective, Rhiannon at learningandlivingaflr.blogspot.com, is very into coming up with concrete steps for nudging each party toward growing as leader and follower, respectively. Such as my wife assigning more chores and ordering me to do things around the house. It is one aspect of our growing FLR relationship that I really, really do not gravitate to. In fact, I hate it at the time it is happening. But, it serves a constructive role for exactly that reason. It is part of the humbling process. Part of pushing me down in the pecking order and moving her up. It also helps her get into the habit of being more directive and more commanding, so that doing so feels more natural.
Are there similar concrete steps that you have taken to encourage yourself or your partner in this process of learning to lead or to submit? Things that have helped you to more fully accept or carry out your chosen role or that have helped your partner fulfill their role or get more comfortable with it? Please share, because there are lots of us who want to strengthen our DD and FLR relationships but may not have thought of good ways to turn goals into habits.
Have a great week.
Dan
I've been thinking a lot about leadership lately, in terms of both our DD relationship and things at work. Obviously, some people assume leadership roles more readily than others. Some people aspire to be leaders. Some actively resist it. Dominance is maybe leadership on steroids. It seems clear that people have different inclinations toward being leaders or followers, and also varying capacities to play those roles.
It's always an over-simplification to try to divide people or relationships up into two general types, but I do feel like there are two broad categories of DD relationships. First, those where one, and hopefully both parties, are acting in the role that fits their natural inclinations. The naturally dominant person is in charge, and more subservient party is the follower. In the second camp are those like Angela and I, where one or both parties are taking on a role that cuts against the grain of his or her base nature. Outside our DD relationship, I am by far the more aggressive, type-A, Alpha spouse. We chose the path of DD precisely because it helps us grow and mature and balance, by taking on the opposite role.
I'm glad that we did it and that it is growing deeper. But, it is undeniably hard sometimes. It's hard for someone whose core nature involves a need to rebel to submit to someone's authority. Likewise, it is hard (maybe harder) for someone who is not entirely comfortable leading to project authority, make decisions, and to punish when necessary. A fellow DD blogger and one of the few out there blogging from a female perspective, Rhiannon at learningandlivingaflr.blogspot.com, is very into coming up with concrete steps for nudging each party toward growing as leader and follower, respectively. Such as my wife assigning more chores and ordering me to do things around the house. It is one aspect of our growing FLR relationship that I really, really do not gravitate to. In fact, I hate it at the time it is happening. But, it serves a constructive role for exactly that reason. It is part of the humbling process. Part of pushing me down in the pecking order and moving her up. It also helps her get into the habit of being more directive and more commanding, so that doing so feels more natural.
Are there similar concrete steps that you have taken to encourage yourself or your partner in this process of learning to lead or to submit? Things that have helped you to more fully accept or carry out your chosen role or that have helped your partner fulfill their role or get more comfortable with it? Please share, because there are lots of us who want to strengthen our DD and FLR relationships but may not have thought of good ways to turn goals into habits.
Have a great week.
Dan
Dan
ReplyDeleteSince Anna has gone back to work I have taken on more and more household chores. Saturdays do all the floors as well as the bathrooms. In addition the biggest change is that as of Sept 1 of this year Anna pays the bills. Aside from our joint credit card statement that has always come to the house a second card that was mine before we married and had always been sent to the office now comes to the house, where Anna examines it carefully.
I don't think I have to explain what happens when she sees items that she knew nothing about. She has also set a goal of march of 2016 for the balance on that card to be zero. I HATE IT ! But i do it. Peter
Hi Peter. How do you react to the chores? I don't really mind doing them, but I very much mind being TOLD to do them. But, as I said, that is kind of the point, i.e. enabling her to make me do things whether I want to or not. Having her handle all the bills sounds like a big step for you. That is one area where Angela has always been in charge, even prior to us starting DD. I handle investment and retirement accounts (which she wants no part of handling) and she manages all the bills and bank accounts.
ReplyDeleteDan
DeleteYou hit it on the nose. Iodinate mind helping and certainly don't mind chores but I do mind being told when and then have them checked after. The truth is i enjoy for example getting the boys ready for bed, even spending half an hour reading or talking to them I do resent it when I am told its time to get them going.
I realize her telling me is an act of her taking charge.When I spoke of the second credit card it was one that Anna knew nothing about. Needless to say I took my punishment for that.
Peter
Hard to blame you for keeping a separate credit card. I never have, but I've been tempted, if for no other reason than otherwise she sees everything that I spend on things like Christmas and birthday presents for her. But, in the scheme on things, it's probably better not to have that little bit of privacy. Too much room for abuse.
DeleteI actually got to discuss this with Rosa and found out her views....none of which surprised me. For us it's a bit of a mixed bag. In Rosa's case, she is truly naturally dominant, both domestically and sexually....and always has been. (Recently a long-time friend of hers stayed with us and she joked with Rosa about, "remember the time you were dating that guy and you told him to cluck like a chicken....and he seemed confused, but did it?") So for her, it's all about separating her initial emotional reaction to something from what she later determines is actually the case. If her cool head tells her she is right, she has no hesitation in enforcing her will. So she has not really needed to employ any techniques to help her on her way. For her, her way is clear.
ReplyDeleteWith me it's a bit different. I guess you could say I'm naturally submissive sexually, and domestically submissive by choice. In the bedroom, Rosa can do whatever she wants and i'll respond positively to all of it. In daily things I am quite a confident and aggressive personality in my own right. I just know I am better off with clear direction, However, I am not incompetent. I just lose focus or get too scattered with a dozen things at once. Rosa gives me parameters and goals, besides behavioral expectations. That makes me more productive and balanced.
But I am not naturally inclined to give in on day-to-day matters. That requires her asserting her will over mine when appropriate. What I have done to make this easier for me is make sure that the areas of my life under her authority are clear and agreed upon. Unlike some couples, Rosa does not have 100% unilateral authority....but she probably has a good 90%.....with strong influence if not outright control over the remaining 10%. Still that bit of latitude is all need to feel OK with the rest of the submission. The other thing I do is for her: I make sure that whenever I do resist and she insists and holds her ground, that despite my reaction at the time, I later let her know she was totally correct in holding to her convictions. She doesn't really need that to know she was right, but she has admitted it helps her when I can admit it to her later.
Good topic.
Thanks, KD. I have been trying a lot hard on the "positive reinforcement" thing recently. Works wonders
DeleteOur relationship is more in the first camp. We’re both very much our own person and because it’s more FLR than DD, it doesn’t revolve around household chores and the like. Discipline is about keeping my everyday and at-work behaviour in check and correcting it as necessary and so she is more business coach disciplinarian to me. Like you Dan, I keep a diary that I recount during a weekly review, usually over dinner on Thursday night, after which punishment will follow if necessary.
ReplyDeleteYour point about her having difficulty in administering punishment was difficult for her at first and we both had to work on getting her comfortable with it. It still doesn’t rest easy with her but she is much less bothered now about inflicting short term pain in exchange for the long term benefit and oddly, I fully agree.
Dave
Hi Dave. I think it's great that she is acting in the role of "business coach disciplinarian." Angela and I talk about that frequently, but it hasn't really happened. She doesn't see the bad work behavior, so it affects her less personally and, therefore, she feels less motivated to deal with it.
DeleteHi Dan, I'm a disciplined man with disciplinarian partner so a disciplined husband as well. I see your wife's point of view and if she has enough to work with, that’s good. My partner’s view is that with commutate time, I'm at work for 11 hours a day, 5 days a week and some Saturdays as well so not only out of sight but also when my behaviour is most likely to slip and that’s why I keep a diary and the weekly reviews.
DeleteWe met through work so she knows what I do and is very good and teasing out my everyday behaviour so it's usually me admitting to misconduct after questioning rather than confessing but when I know I’ve wronged, I do confess up front because of the consequences of her finding out later. I say it myself but I think I'm fairly good around the house and do my fair share which is why it’s less like a DD relationship. We know I need a point of authority to set standards and maintain them through business like assessment, punishment and maintenance.
Dishing out a caning never comes easy for her and it never will even though she admits to like seeing its effect on my posterior. We both know I need to be directed and if she didn’t do it then someone else would have to do it (and naturally, she's strong views about who sees me with my pants down) or my behaviour goes unchecked and that’s not an option either so to her, it’s a job she has to do that’s not enjoyable but very satisfying.
Dave
"We know I need a point of authority to set standards and maintain them through business like assessment, punishment and maintenance." Great stuff, Dave. I am envious in many ways and will aspire to work more work-related process into my own relationship. Thanks for sharing.
DeleteConcrete Steps? Many are small steps and maybe not so concrete I suppose.
ReplyDeleteThe concrete steps in our FLR journey:
1. Establishing written rules - we established written rules that set expectations for both of us. That was a very important step in our journey.
2. Adopting Confession over Omission - a big step for me was learning that if I broke a rule, it was my duty in the relationship to let her know. This was and is a hard one for me even today.
For us those were two big steps. So much of our journey is not concrete, yet so important. Her acceptance of administering punishment with severity and without guilt was a big one, but I would call that a softer milestone.
--Easy
Must say I love how you phrased rule 2. Confession over Omission keeps life so much simpler and really does help to eliminate drama, and daily life more pleasant.
DeleteAnna
I agree with you both. Written rules do help establish the relationship, even if you choose to drop them over time. To Anna's point, I too see "confession over omission" as a big step, and not one I am perfect at taking.
DeleteI am a big believer in stressing sins of omission as well as commission to Jay. Often its what he fails to do that gets him in trouble. I also am a big fan of confession.I love him to confess to me and ask for a correction. When a man confesses bad behavior and asks to be punished for it, he is making an emotional commitment that moves discipline to a new level. He is taking responsibility for his actions and that is a sign of growth and maturity. I never feel more fulfilled after disciplining him than when he has confessed before hand and asked for punishment. It's a great moment for both of us.
DeleteMarisa
I do a lot of confession (though probably not as much as I should), but I rarely ask for it. You have me convinced that I need to move more in that direction.
DeleteHello Dan,
DeleteWives love husbands who confess and ask for correction ( at least this one does)Try it with your wife a few times. You might be surprised at her pleased response. Confessing and asking puts the onus for both the bad behavior and the consequent punishment on the misbehaving husband where it belongs.It also reduces the need to supervise him when he is monitoring his own behavior. Eventually I plan to train Jay to recognize his bad behavior, report it to me and request correction before I have to get involved..Jay wants to get to the point that spanking is rare. This is how he can get there.
Marisa
Dan
DeleteDo as Marisa Says! She is right.
anna
To both Marisa and Anna, I accept your instructions.
DeleteI think we have covered this topic of "asking for it" before, but maybe it is time to do it again. I admit to having mixed feelings about it. Part of what I'm looking for in DD is having the boundaries and rules imposed on me. Asking for punishment does feel more like me controlling the process than her really taking it over and doing it, but I will give it a try.
To use the cliché topping from below by asking for it is not really applicable if you have established rules with established consequences. You are merely owning up. Saying I know this is the consequence
DeleteI think confessing is very positive in an evolving DD relationship. Like Dan I struggle to do it but lately our regularly scheduled behavioral reviews is making it easier to fess up.I know that owning up during behavioral review isn't exactly what Marissa is describing but its a step in that direction. I don't think confessing and asking for punishment is topping from below as long as a wife is in charge of when, where and why punishment happens. When I confess during our regular behavioral reviews, sometimes she spanks, but other times she counsels me or orders a non corporal punishment such as loss of privileges. The point is she decides if I need to be punished and if so how I am punished and I accept her decision whatever it is. That isn't topping from below
DeleteAlan
Alan
DeleteThanks for making the point that confession does not always lead to corporal punishment. I find no college football an excellent reminder for peter.
anna
I need to read more about Alan's behavioral reviews because I like the notion of it. But already I do what could be called informal reviews that are fun for us and very effective at discovering misbehavior. Usually on a weekend morning while we are still in bed I will caress his penis slowly while interrogating him, asking him if he has been obedient, finished all his chores and if he has misbehaved all week.I do this in a fun but serious way and it makes him a truth teller even when he knows what can happen. Whether these sessions actually earn him an appointment with my strap depend on a number of things and not knowing what I will do probably encourages him to be truthful.Sometimes although not often a session like this has led to wonderful love making and sometimes I bring him to climax when the interrogation is done. I haven't heard of others practicing this and so I pass it on if it helps. If you have trouble getting your husband to admit to misbehavior it really works to nip that in the bud and it is a lot of fun.
DeleteHolly.
We men really are predictable, aren't we? We will do or say anything, even if totally against our interest and the interests of our soon-to-be-sore bottoms -- as long as it can be called foreplay.
DeleteNo "written rules" for us. L. has learned what will earn him a spanking or a whipping through "experience", but I like to keep him "on his toes" - and to decide whether or not he deseves to be punished. And, even though they have not been written down, he knows when he may have broken one of the implicit (but understood) rules, and will sometimes "volunteer" for the punishment he deserves.
ReplyDeleteJ.
Hi J. The "keeping him on his toes" approach is what we aspire to. Thanks for sharing.
DeleteI have always been a natural leader, in sports through college, and in business starting my own company, growing it, and leading the team. My wife is not submissive, but she has always let me get away with things that I shouldn't have gotten away with. As we matured together, she started to take issue with certain of my behaviors, verbally let me know I was not acting as I should and then employed the silent treatment as punishment. This only aggravated me and nothing got settled and my bad behavior did not improve. Things between us got worse until I realized she was right, certain of my behaviors were unacceptable and ruining our relationship together. I knew things had to change and began to realize I needed discipline, but what kind of discipline. Since my second grade very attractive teacher started spanking kids who misbehaved in class , that experience always stuck with me. It worked for me then (I was never spanked by that teacher) and I thought my wife was mad enough at me at that time that if I suggested we clear the air and we could do that if she should spank the hell out of me - she might just do it. So I used the internet and did some homework finding the DWC. Then I approached her and told her I had thought things over, she was right, my behavior was unacceptable, and one way for us to address the problem is jointly agree on those areas where my behavior has complicated our marriage, and if that happens you should spank the hell out of me, because if you don't I won't correct that behavior. I told her this was a much better solution than fighting, and since I realized I needed to improve my behavior, and wanted to, this would teach me a lesson and be of some retribution. If we set the rules and I disobeyed them, I would willing take the punishment she thought I deserved with no resistance. I had her read the DWC site amongst others involving DD and we discussed this more because she agreed that this solution appealed to her. She told me you have deserved being spanked for a long time, and I guess I'll just have to do it and We can start right now. She used a hairbrush on me, but held back some when I started to kick and make promises for her to stop. I did thank her and told her I would improve, and I worked at improving. It did not take my wife long to learn I wouldn't die from her paddling's, and we added instruments to her war chest, and when I repeated certain bad behavior (mostly temper related) she would be mad enough to really blister my butt. Neither of us believe in FLR, but we both agree DD has really worked for us. Although I absolutely hate being paddled or strapped to the point of agony, I take it and realize it is for my own good and feel better about myself after the fact. It cleanses me. It satisfies my wife that she has made her point and I better improve. And when it's over, my wife buries the past and forgives me with a warning, don't do it again. I try not to. So it is maturity, timing and appreciation for her effort that has done it for us.
ReplyDeleteFred
Your wife sounds similar to mine -- not submissive, but someone for whom assertiveness is more of an acquired skill.
DeleteHi Dan,
ReplyDeleteIts interesting to me that although we all have taken different paths to DD, everyone with a successful story seems to have discovered the same secrets: honesty and open communication, a wife who learns the importance of spanking hard and spanking consistently, a husband hating it when it is happening but understanding it for his own good and eventually giving up all resistance to it, a transfer of enough authority to wife she can discipline whenever necessary without real resistance, and most important a relationship that gets better and better over time as loving discipline works its magic.DD is not for every couple but that's a shame because it would be a better ( and happier) world if more couples practiced it
Alan
Hi Alan. I've always said there is no "right" way to do these kinds of relationships, but you are right that there does seem to be a certain prescription that maximizes the chance that it works. While it's probably subsumed in "honesty and open communication," I would add "trust" to the list. In most of these relationships one person has another trust in the other to broach the idea of DD, trusting that whether or not they agree to try, it will get a fair and non-judgmental hearing.
DeleteAllen it took me a long time to figure out and understand I needed DD, and feel lucky my wife adapted to that need for the benefit of our marriage. There is no doubt in my mind that many married men prefer their wives to keep them in line and would far prefer a quick, but effective paddling, than continuing friction. The dispute/friction is quickly resolved even if the husband is not fully to blame. I now have a greater admiration for my wife disciplining me when I need it as opposed to letting me get away with things that can be hurtful. I think most married men would accept that concept and if they did, and their wives responded, the marriage would be a happier and stable one.
ReplyDeleteFred
Concrete steps
ReplyDeleteEchoing many communication.
Mutual consent. We only do things everyone has agreed to.
We talk a lot about what could or should happen to me. Who can and cannot do what. Ie establish what the rules actually are.
It definitely helps that we all enjoy. Sometimes it's a fun thing. Sometimes it's a sexual thing. Sometimes it's one for me receiving the other for the disciplinarian
Disciplinarian- three of my wife's friends know about me and on occasion punish me too
The relative difference in body size can be part of the fun too. I'm 6"7' she is 5'2" quite the image of the strong powerful lady taking me down
OK, so here's a concrete step: I suggested to my wife that I would be willing to completely give up receiving blowjobs if she would become a full-time spanking wife. At first she couldn't believe it, but then she found out I was serious. The fact that she no longer gives any kind of fellatio to me anymore has been like an emancipation to her. I just felt like after almost 30 years of marriage it was no longer appropriate for her to continue giving oral sex to me because it made her submissive and now I'm the one who is submissive to her and her big wooden hairbrush. She loves this arrangement since she was really starting to resent giving blowjobs anyway. A word of caution: really, really think this through before offering such an arrangement. There are days when I definitely regret the decision. I have even occasionally asked if we could go back to the old way, but she has consistently made it clear that that's not happening. That's super exciting, though, because it took a lot of confidence for her to stick to her guns like that, and it has helped her become a stronger spanker. She is now a wife who swings with a lot of authority, and regularly. So I've lost some, but I've gained so much more. My "blowjob surrender" made it clear to her how strong my need really is.
ReplyDelete